The final word on women and their place in society is the Word of God, which makes the role of women very clear. God knows exactly What God Wants with regard to all of this, and it is humanity’s job to adhere to the Will of God…
I have had a very difficult time getting onto this blog over the past two days owing to a problem in my computer. I apologize to those of you who have been waiting for Sunday School All Week to continue!
But class is reconvened today, and so let’s move right into it, with one final session on the Role of Women in the World, because I want to have a chance to review some of the Comments placed here…
In our last session we asked if women were second class citizens. We asked the class this question based on the reading of passages from Scripture, as well as cultural religious traditions, that suggest that females are to be quiet and not speak and never have authority of males and are to receive 1/2 of the inheritance that a male survivor in a family would receive and are to have their testimony in court equal to one-half that of male (in the Islamic tradition, two females must testify to the same thing for the testimony to be accepted; only one male is required for sworn testimony to be entered into the record.)
I asked the class…is this What God Wants?
Class member “Deb” offered this…

When people say, “Everything in the bible is of God,” I wonder if they’ve read the whole thing? Slavery, multiple wives per male, animal and human sacrifice, several purposeful floodings, plagues, death, torture, and judgment, judgment, judgment.
I don’t see the difference in saying, “Nothing in the bible is of God.”
I can guarantee you this: No book is 100% correct. Again, it was written thousands of years ago. By men.
Where did male supremacy come from? From MEN. And frightened women. And another spirit who lurks around causing trouble whenever they find a niche.
If someone wants to find God in a book they consider to be holy, is that wrong?

I certainly agree with you about this, Deb. No book is 100% correct. And I hope that I never said that “nothing in the Bible is of God,” because I surely don’t believe that. Quite to the contrary. I think a great deal of what is in the Bible is “of God”. To your last question…of course not. The question answers itself. Did I give the impression that no person should or can “find God” in the Bible?
And then, class member “RM” offered this…

Please do not confuse the intention to “protect” the Woman – who is the shaper and nurturer of our future – from the elements in the society which seek to corrupt her, with the intention to “subjugate” her or devalue her.
I don’t put my valuables on public display…lest a stranger come and snatch them away.
How about you?

Well, RM, I would respond in this way to what you have said…for a very long time certain segments of human society have characterized their treatment of women as a means of “protecting” females. But what kind of “protection” requires that a woman never venture into public without being in the company of a blood male relative? What kind of “protection” requires that a woman wear a covering from head to toe so that only an eye-slit allows the sunlight to touch her body? What kind of “protection” disallows little girls from going to the same school that little boys go to? What kind of “protection” provides an inheritance to females of one-half of the share that goes to males in the same family? What kind of “protection” says that a woman’s word at court is worth half that of a man’s?
You see, RM, the age old reasoning of “protecting our women” is the justification used by MEN to subjugate women — whether they WANT to be “protected” or not. You have said, RM…

I don’t put my valuables on public display…lest a stranger come and snatch them away.

I don’t consider my wife to be part of “my valuables”…like jewelery or a gold watch or a pile of coins or a new car. And I do not to depend on the tactic of hiding my wife in order to “protect” her (?) (her, or ME???)…from being “snatched away” by a “stranger.” My “protection,” and my wife’s “protection,” is my wife’s morality, my wife’s loyalty, my wife’s promise. I don’t need to make her cover herself from head to toe, or never venture three feet from home without a blood male relative. Come one, RM…surely you see that such draconian measures are antiquated, outdated, and merely offer an excuse for women to be treated abysmally.
And by the way, RM…what about women who don’t choose to be so “protected?” Are they required to be protected against their will? Or are women allowed to even have a will of their own in these matters, RM?
RM…I hope you read the words of “Susan”, who wrote…

Or like Mr. Muhammad says, they have their pretty little valuables that belong to them that they don’t want anybody else to look at? Isn’t that something that we outgrow in grade school? MINE!! MINE!!! A woman is not your property and just by saying what you said, you are devaluing her! Maybe your focus should be more upon’ making SOCIETY safer for women by dealing with men who don’t know how to control themselves. You don’t protect a woman by taking away her freedom to walk unrestricted in the world.

Well said, Susan. Apparently there are those in our world who feel that you DO “protect a woman by taking away her freedom to walk unrestricted in the world.” Hmmmm….
And wow….then along comes Anne, with THIS…

Is she not an adult capable of making adult decisions for her own behalf? Is she not capable of making proper choices in life for her own well being or even for her family? Is she so weak in your eyes that she can be so easily currupted with ANY form of influence that she may encounter? I think if she was raised with good intentions as a child , she will grow up to know what is right or wrong in life as a whole. And if she makes a mistake…. she will learn from it. Men do it all the time.

Well, RM, what do you say to that? Men DO do it all the time, don’t they? Men DO learn from their mistakes. Are you saying that women should not be allowed to? Or that they are genetically incapable of doing so….? Which is it?
Or are you saying that women are such delicate creatures, with such an important job to do in the world (ahem…raising the children and caring for the family) that they should not “have” to be exposed to the wicked, evil world outside their door….
Boy, of boy….
I want to commend and honor class member “Jensuf,” who went WAY outside his comfort zone to write…

Neale,
This is very difficult for me. But, I think you’re right. Islam , at least in the traditional sense, does take a dim view towards women. There are Hadiths that state something to the effect that the majority of the inhabitants of Hell are women because they lack gratefulness to their husbands and are deficient in intelligence. There’s lots of other stuff too, but it’s becoming too painful to look at.
On the plus side there is an instance, in the Qu’ran where a single woman’s testimony is worth that of four men and that’s for paternity.
I admit that I’m losing faith and, unbelievably, it feels pretty good to know my friends and loved ones aren’t going to be going to Hell for not appeasing a jealous God.
With Love, Jensuf

I put the boldface type over those words, class, because I want all the Muslims in the room to read them very carefully. RM…what do you say to this? Are those Hadiths wrong? Are you ready and able to denounce them now, once and for all?
Class member “Shekah” reminds us — as if we needed reminding — that it is not just the Islamic tradition that devalues women…

Your observations on world religions, Mr. Walsch, are the same ones which drove me away from mainstream religion. I was raised Christian and left because I was force fed an apple while I watched men carve their initials on the Tree of Knowledge. I fantasized dying and grabbing God by the throat and demanding an explanation for why I carried the guilt of the world just for being female.

Yes, it is Christians, too, who — to this very day — reduce women to sub-status. Read this from class member Elaine…

It still surprises me when I visit a church and the pastor/deacon/band leader/whoever gets up to the podium and openly says, “Nothing wrong with women. They just shouldn’t lead men, like the Bible says.” There ARE protestant, Christian religious than still teach this. My own parents changed from a ‘liberal’ section of their denomination to a ‘conservative’ track section. A result? I refuse to go to church with my parents when I visit them because I cannot attend a church that believes women are less, women can’t lead, women are to be treated as sub-anything.

And, as “Indep” reminds us…

Many women in many cultures are prevented from developing their full potential from girlhood. This disadvantages the woman herself but also her husband, from having a ‘whole’ person by his side, and her potential children, from having a developed, reasoning, confident mother.

And so we see that the subjugation of women is systemic. It is a condition created by the entire human species, many members of which have used God as their moral authority.
And then, “Susan” came up with this astonishing list of references from the Bible, and statements from people of influence, about the sad condition and lower role of women in our world. If you already saw this, pass right over it here. If you did not…get a load of THIS….

Genesis 3:16 Woman cursed,
19:1-8 virgin daughters offered to rape instead of male angels
Exodus 20:17 wife man’s property
Exodus 21:7-11 unfair rules for women, sex slave
Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live
Exodus 38:8 women not allowed in tabernacle
Leviticus 12:1-14 woman unclean 7 days after birth of son, 14 days after birth of daughter

Leviticus 15:19-23 menstruating woman “unclean”
Leviticus 19:20-22 If master has sex with engaged woman, she is to be scourged
Numbers 1:2 Poll only includes men
Numbers 5:13-31 barbaric aldutress test
Numbers 27:8-11 wife not included in will, inheritance goes to sons over daughters
Numbers 31:16-35 virgins are war booty
Deuteronomy 21:11-14 rape manual
Deut. 22:13-21 Barbaric virgin test
Deut 22:23-24 Woman raped in city, she & rapist both stoned to death
Deut 22:28-29 Woman must marry her rapist
Deut 24:1 Men can divorce woman for “uncleanness,” not vice-versa
Deut 25:5-9 widow must marry husband’s brother, unless he refuses
Deut 25:11-12 If woman touches foe’s penis, her hand to be cut off
Judges 11:30-40 Jephthah’s nameless daughter sacrificed
Judges 19:22-29 Concubine sacrificed to rapist crowd to save man
I Kings 11:1-4 King Solomon had 700 wives & 300 concubines
Job 14:1-4 calls woman unclean thing
Luke 2:22 Mary is unclean after birth of Jesus
I Corinthians 11:3-15 Man is head of woman; only man in God’s image
I Cor 14:34-35 Women keep in silence, learn only from husbands

Ephesians 5:22-33 “Wives, submit . . .”
Colossians 3:18 More “wives submit”
I Timothy 2:9 Women adorn selves in shamefacedness
I Tim 2:11-15 Women learn in silence in all subjection; Eve was sinful, Adam blameless, women saved in childbearing
I Peter 3:17 submit to husband, call him “lord”, woman weaker vessel
Various writers had to say on the subject:
“…God, by creating Adam first (Gen. 2:18; 1 Cor. 11:8) and also by creating woman for man (Gen. 2:18,20,22; 1 Cor. 11:9), has set the gender-based role and responsibility of males in the most basic unit of society (the family) to be that of leader, provider and self-sacrificial protector (also cf. Eph. 5:25; 1 Peter 3:7), and likewise has set the gender-based role and responsibility of females to be that of help and nurture (Gen. 2:18) and life-giving (Gen. 3:20) under male leadership and protection (cf. 1 Peter 3:7)…” — The Council on Biblical Manhood & Womanhood
“The real issue in this debate(whether women should be allowed in the pastorate)–and the only issue worth debating –is the authority and interpretation of the Bible. Given the revelation of God in Holy Scripture, Southern Baptists cannot follow the road toward a feminized pulpit. The price would be the rejection of clear biblical teaching.” —Dr.R.Albert Mohler, Jr., President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, one of the largest seminaries in the world.

“each of you women is an Eve . . . You are the gate of Hell, you are the temptress of the forbidden tree; you are the first deserter of the divine law.”—-church writer Tertullian
“If a woman grows weary and at last dies from childbearing, it matters not. Let her die from bearing, she is there to do it.” —Martin Luther, founder of the Protestant church
The Feminist agenda is not about equal rights for women. It is about a socialist, anti-family political movement that encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism, and become lesbians.—Pat Robertson head of 700 Club, influential Christian evangelist
“What is the difference whether it is in a wife or a mother, it is still Eve the temptress that we must beware of in any woman……I fail to see what use woman can be to man, if one excludes the function of bearing children.” —St. Augustine of Hippo
“As regards the individual nature, woman is defective and misbegotten, for the active force in the male seed tends to the production of a perfect likeness in the masculine sex; while the production of woman comes from a defect in the active force or from some material indisposition, or even from some external influence.” —-St. Thomas Aquinas
“Most of these feminists are radical, frustrated lesbians, many of them, and man-haters, and failures in their relationships with men, and who have declared war on the male gender. The Biblical condemnation of feminism has to do with its radical philosophy and goals. That’s the bottom line. —- Rev.Jerry Falwell
“The Bible and the Church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman’s emancipation.” —Elizabeth Cady Stanton leader of the early women’s movement
Don L above seems to continue to try to find ways to excuse the writings rather than to acknowledge inequality in them.
So what are the pertinent answers?

I agree, Susan, that class member “Don. L.” would like to excuse these plain and very direct Scriptural references…and I am sure he wishes that they were simply not there, because they are pretty hard to explain away without simply admitting that the attitudes of ancient times, when these scriptures were written, reflect ancient attitudes of subjugation of women. (To say nothing of present day attitudes!)
And thank you, too, Victor, for your contributions along the same line.
And I think we can bring this topic to a close with this input from “Rev Glen,” who happens to be, if I remember correctly, a Christian minister…

Neale: As I’ve mentioned previously, I am of the opinion that the Hebrew and Christian scriptures are a curious mixture of divine revelation and human pre-occupation. One cannot (indeed, should not) approach these texts without recognizing this curious truth. In my confirmation classes I give each student a pair of 3D glasses – you know, the cardboard glasses with one red lens and one green lens – and invite them to look at their Bible, first with only the right eye, then only the left, then finally, with both eyes. I explain that the glasses represent the two dimensions of scripture’s mystery: the divine and the human, and in order to get the best view we must be willing to read them with both eyes open.

The texts you refer to are a perfect example of this. They do not reflect so much What God Wants as much as they reflect What People With Power Want God To Want Because It Is Really What They Want.
Using God to validate our selfish desires is nothing new. Religious and political manipulators have done it for thousands of years, using doctrine, dogma and fear to refine and drive their agenda home to the gullible masses. Whether it be a man named Paul in the first century, a Roman emperor named Ceaser, or an entire American political party, people who seek to maintain social or economic power seem to have an uncanny knack for knowing exactly What God Wants, and it just happens to serve their purposes and validate their world-view!
These texts blatantly expose the human warping of the divine revelation. They reflect a male dominated culture using religious influence (God and scripture) to justify and further perpetuate the divinely approved food chain of who gets to be in control. In this case, it’s a male-dominated culture using God to say, “See, this is exactly the way God Wants It to be,” which happens to work out marvelously well for, you guessed it, the men.

Ahem….
Well, our class now moves on to other topics….see you here very soon!