John McCain: Constitution Established a 'Christian Nation'
Presidential candidate and U.S. Senator John McCain discusses the country's Judeo-Christian roots, explains why the prospect of a Muslim in the White House makes him uncomfortable, and reveals that he wouldn't undergo a full-immersion baptism until his presidential campaign is over.
Watch segments of the video interview. Or read a transcript below.
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Has the candidates’ personal faith become too big an issue in the presidential race?
Questions about that are very legitimate.... And it's also appropriate for me at certain points in the conversation to say, look, that's sort of a private matter between me and my Creator.... But I think the number one issue people should make [in the] selection of the President of the United States is, 'Will this person carry on in the Judeo Christian principled tradition that has made this nation the greatest experiment in the history of mankind?'"
It doesn't seem like a Muslim candidate would do very well, according to that standard.
I admire the Islam. There's a lot of good principles in it. I think one of the great tragedies of the 21st century is that these forces of evil have perverted what's basically an honorable religion. But, no, I just have to say in all candor that since this nation was founded primarily on Christian principles.... personally, I prefer someone who I know who has a solid grounding in my faith. But that doesn't mean that I'm sure that someone who is Muslim would not make a good president. I don't say that we would rule out under any circumstances someone of a different faith. I just would--I just feel that that's an important part of our qualifications to lead.*
People are raising similar concerns about Mitt Romney’s Mormonism, which some consider to be outside the Judeo-Christian tradition.
I believe that the Mormon religion is a religion that I don't share, but I respect. More importantly, I've known so many people of the Mormon faith who have been so magnificent. I think that Governor Romney's religion should not, absolutely not, be a disqualifying factor when people consider his candidacy for President of the United States, absolutely not.
A recent poll found that 55 percent of Americans believe the U.S. Constitution establishes a Christian nation. What do you think?
I would probably have to say yes, that the Constitution established the United States of America as a Christian nation. But I say that in the broadest sense. The lady that holds her lamp beside the golden door doesn't say, “I only welcome Christians.” We welcome the poor, the tired, the huddled masses. But when they come here they know that they are in a nation founded on Christian principles.
For years, you've been identified as an Episcopalian. You recently began referring to yourself as a Baptist. Why?
[It was] one comment on the bus after hours. I meant to say that I practice in a—I am a Christian and I attend a Baptist church. I am very aware that immersion is part—as my wife Cindy has done—is necessary to be considered a Baptist. So I was raised Episcopalian, I have attended the North Phoenix Baptist Church for many years and I am a Christian.
What prevents you from taking that final step of undergoing the baptism?
I've had discussions with the pastor about it and we're still in conversation about it. In the meantime, I am a practicing Christian.
So the baptism is something you still might do?
Oh, sure, yeah. But, some of the factors haven't got so much to do with religion as they have to do with just—I'm in conversations with [my] pastor about it, as short a time ago as last week. But I would not anticipate going through that during this presidential campaign. I am afraid it might appear as if I was doing something that I otherwise wouldn't do.
*McCain contacted Beliefnet after the interview to clarify his remarks: “I would vote for a Muslim if he or she was the candidate best able to lead the country and defend our political values.”
As a POW in Vietnam, you were appointed by fellow prisoners to act as a chaplain. Why?
I would like to tell you that I was selected to be room chaplain because I had an abundance of religiosity. But the fact is that I had gone to church all my life, I had gone to an Episcopal school where we went to church chapel every morning, I went to the Naval Academy where chapel attendance was mandatory, I knew all of the words to the Nicene Creed and the Apostles’ Creed. So I had an ability to lead a church service. I think that there were better men than I, better Christians than I in that room. But I loved it.
We had some incredibly experiences there. I'll never forget that first Christmas when I gave--when I read from the Nativity story from the different Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. And I looked in that room around and there were guys who had already been there for seven years and tears were streaming down their face, not out of sorrow, but out of joy that for the first time in all that captivity, we could celebrate the birth of Christ together. It was a scene I will never ever forget.
Reading "Faith of My Fathers," your first book, it seems like your five-and-a-half years of captivity deepened your faith in God and others when previous to that you survived mostly on self-reliance.
I was a very immature young man at the Naval Academy in my early days as a pilot. And in prison, look—It would be impossible for me to tell you that my faith wasn't my sword and my shield and my sustenance and my strength. I didn't pray in prison many times for another day or another hour. Sometimes, I prayed for another minute that I could withstand what I was experiencing.
And if it had not been for that faith, I know that I may not be here today. I'm not sure about that. I don't think so. But I certainly wouldn't have been able to come home with honor, that I had done everything in my power with the help of God to resist dishonoring my family and my country and my fellow prisoners.
How would you describe your relationship with God today?
I pray every day. I ask for guidance. I ask for strength. I don't ask for personal success. I think it's wrong.
When I was in prison, I told my fellow prisoners, don't pray to go home. Pray to go home with honor, if it be God's will, not just under any circumstances….
So, it's a very important part of my life. But, I cannot tell you that I've ever had a revelation from God--it's been kind of plotting. I pray, I receive comfort, I think I receive guidance, I know I receive guidance and I pray and it's, you know, it's not a spectacular kind of thing. It's something that I think is very lasting.
Have you ever prayed with President Bush?
No, I've never been asked to do so.
In a recent interview, President Bush said that in attempting to spread freedom abroad, including in Iraq, he was operating from a “theological perspective.” Did that perspective give him an overconfidence that blinded him to the difficulties of prosecuting the Iraq war?
On the issue of the war in Iraq and the conduct of it and President Bush's public statements about it, let me just go back. We were founded as a nation on Judeo-Christian principles. There's very little debate about that. And I think the noblest words ever written are, "We hold these truths to be self evident that all, all people are created equal and endowed by their Creator."
So if you believe in that fundamental principle, then of course you believe in the desirability and the attractiveness of helping bring to those God-given rights to people all over the earth. What has happened, though, throughout our history is a tension between realpolitik and Wilsonian principles…. [which are] clearly defined in "We are endowed by our Creator." But realpolitik says that if you overstretch, if you go places you shouldn't go, then the penalty you pay is higher than anything you might have hoped to have gained.
So, that's the tension, and it's good that it's there. So, do I believe that Iraq is an object lesson? Not as much as others do because after the initial victory, if we'd have handled it right, everybody would be happy with Iraq today because Saddam Hussein is gone and they have a country that's functioning.
The problem is, we mishandled it terribly. I do agree and most people do - we're a shining city on a hill. Has that shining city been dimmed and tarnished by our reputation in the world today? Of course, of course it has been. But, I still believe we have that role and mission to fulfill in the world.
But the mistakes that the President made in Iraq were not born of “theological perspective” hubris?
There were serious mistakes that were made by—speaking of religions, I think the Greek god hubris played a role in Mr. Rumsfeld's decisions. It was just terribly mishandled. But I don't think it had a lot to do with Christian principle as much as it had to do with terrible mismanagement.
Many prominent pro-life activists have objected to your campaigns even though you have a more staunchly pro-life record than any of the Republican presidential frontrunners: Rudy Giuliani, Mitt Romney, or Fred Thompson.
I find it a bit ironic. Part of it may have had to do with campaign finance reform…. But I continue to establish relationships with people like [televangelist] John Hagee, Pastor Richard Land [president of the Southern Baptist Convention’s public policy arm], my own Pastor Dan Yeary and others in the evangelical community. There are issues, also, that I'm in agreement with them on such as climate change and support for the state of Israel. I hope that I can continue the dialog.
How much did your losing the GOP nomination in 2000 have to do with you denouncing Christian Right leaders as “agents of intolerance,” which happened shortly before your decisive loss to George W. Bush in the South Carolina primary?
I don't know. I'm sure it probably must have had an effect. But Reverend Falwell came to my office, said he wanted to put our differences behind us. I am so grateful that that happened. Others have come to me, [like] the anti-war activists of the Vietnam War came and [have] said, ‘I believe in redemption and reconciliation.’ That is a fundamental belief of mine and I think it's a Christian principle, as well.
A lot of Republican activists say the separation of church and state is a myth. What do you think?
Our Founding Fathers believed in separation of church and state and they stated it unequivocally. But, they also continued to emphasize the Christian principle. In God We Trust or [all men are] created equal—every statement that they made had to do with the belief in a Divine Creator… They sought guidance from their Creator. So, when some people interpret their desire for separation of church and state as a failure to acknowledge the importance and influence of our Creator, I think that they have a different view of history than I do.
In your new book Hard Call, the chapter dealing most with religion, besides one on Reinhold Niebuhr, is a chapter about Abraham Lincoln. That’s kind of surprising.
The thing that really did impress me is how Lincoln, once he became president, became far more, not only devoted to his religion, but dependent in some ways on his faith in God. And, you know, part of that is really understandable. The carnage of the Civil War, can you imagine how it weighed on him? ….He made a promise to God that he would free the slaves, which was not a popular move in the North, much less in the South. But, still, it was an act that was really because of his religiosity.
We have to rely on our faith sometimes to give us guidance, not to help us make a specific decision, but to help us maintain our moral and spiritual values that then allow us to make the right decision, even if sometimes it's politically expensive.
Some have criticized President Bush for giving his faith to big a role in shaping his decision. In 2004, some criticized John Kerry for saying his faith didn’t inform his positions. Where do you stand?
My faith obviously informs my decisions. It informs my strengths as well as my weaknesses. And it makes me aware of how imperfect a person I am. And it is vital in helping me maintain the principles upon which I conduct my political life, as well as other parts of my life…. when I have taken decisions which were not in keeping with those principles, interestingly enough, I've always paid a heavy price.
Could you give an example?
One where I paid a price was that the Confederate flag was flying over the State Capitol in South Carolina. I talked with my advisor, [who] said it's a state issue and we shouldn't be involved in it. But it was an offensive symbol to so many Americans. I took a hike and I lost [the 2000 South Carolina primary] anyway. I could name you other times that I have been weak and not stuck with those principles and not relied on my faith and on prayer and in a way, maybe it's good that I've paid--I didn't think so at the time--but that I've paid a price.
In Hard Call’s chapter on Reinhold Niehbur, you write about his evolution from sharing a Social Gospel emphasis on human perfectibility to a more fundamentalist Christian emphasis on human sinfulness. As someone raised in a mainline Christian denomination but now attending a Baptist church, have you undergone a similar transformation?
On the subject of Reinhold Niebuhr, I think his realization and appreciation that we have to combat evil even if that means that we violate some of God's commandments was an interesting journey that he took, particularly when at the end he arrived at the conclusion that I agree with—we are not perfect. We are imperfect. And at the end of the day, for our sins, we have to ask for the judgment of a loving God. He had to confront with his conscience this overwhelming evil that he couldn't sit by. But, yet, at the same time, he violated one of his fundamental principles of pacifism.
And yet you write that Niebuhr vociferously opposed “America’s missionary zeal to promote democracy abroad,” viewing it as a “heresy” rooted in human arrogance. It’s impossible to read those words and not think of Iraq.
I have great respect for Niebuhr. It doesn't mean that I always agree with his conclusions. And by the way, I think that Niebuhr would have opposed the Vietnam War, because I believe the only reason why he opposed Nazism and Communism is because he thought it was a transcendent threat to everything that we believe in as Christians or Judeo-Christians.
So I think that when we made the decision to go to war in Iraq, that we believed and so did every other intelligence agency that we faced a transcendent challenge of nuclear weapons, weapons of mass destruction.