Their Bad Mother

Their Bad Mother


Doesn’t Pro-Life Mean Pro LIFE?

posted by Catherine Connors

(Follow-up to reflections on Jon & Kate postponed for a day or two)

George Tiller, a doctor who performed late-term abortions, was shot to death at 10 a.m. today, at his church outside Wichita, Kansas. For some, like Operation Rescue Founder Randall Terry, Tiller was a “mass-murderer” and deserved what he got. For others – their voices represented by women like NOW President Kim Gandy – Tiller is an innocent victim of “domestic terrorism.”

Count me among the latter. This is terrifying and terrible and terrorism is as good a word as any to apply to what happened.

I’m pretty vocal about being pro-choice. I’m also pretty vocal about my ambivalence about what such choice entails, which is to say, I’m emphatically not pro-abortion. But then again, I don’t know anyone who is pro-abortion, or anti-life, or anything other than simply pro-choice. Pro-choice is not pro-death. Funny, though, how pro-life, in this case, turned pro-death. A more perfect example of irony in action I cannot, at this moment, imagine.

Abortion is – to say the least – a complicated issue. How do we say when life begins, how do we determine whether the earliest stirrings of life should be protected, whether the rights and interests of a self-determining human being should or should not outweigh the possible rights and interests of a being whose life has not yet begun? Hard questions that sometimes seem to defy answers. Murder, however, is not a complicated issue. Killing a living human being in cold blood is wrong. We can parse arguments about murder to account for necessary defense (self-defense, war), but otherwise it’s pretty straightforward: murder – understood as killing an autonomous, living human being – is wrong. So how anybody, anywhere, can defend this is beyond my understanding entirely. Even if you belief that abortion itself is murder, how does spreading more death  – spreading death, and terror? – bring forward a message of life and hope?

I am confused, and sad. So, so sad.

  



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Your Name

posted May 31, 2009 at 10:37 pm


Pro-life does mean Pro LIFE. I am pro-life and I too am sad. I can’t understand how someone could be pro-life and kill. “There is nothing “Pro-Life” or “Christian” about murder and the hatred that fuels it”. Walter Hoye
I am also sadden that we live in a society that a self-determining human being believes it is okay to terminate the life growing inside of her.



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JohnnyD

posted May 31, 2009 at 11:20 pm


It now appears that the man who shot killer has no connection to the pro-life movement. If anything, he has more in common with pro-choice groups that believe that killing and death are a solution.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:18 am


Johnny D
Wrong. He comes directly from your groups.
Thanks for playing. Better luck next time.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/01/us/01tiller.html?hp



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:24 am


Reading the comments here and elsewhere on the net this morning, I am struck by the false witness of the far-right Christians.
Instead of saying “God, we have transgressed – our hatred has incited to murder” they are all out saying. “He wasn’t one of us, he doesn’t speak for us, nothing to see here, move on, move on. And, anyway – the left are bad people, too!”
Yeah, right.
Their knee-jerk defense of murder is proof who just how twisted and perverted the anti-choice side is.
Women, gays and transgender are all the victims of conservative Christian violence. It is time for those of us Christians who actually do believe Jesus meant it when he forbade us judgment on others to stand up and take a stand.
This has gone too far.



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Their Bad Mother

posted June 1, 2009 at 9:25 am


Your Name – many women – perhaps even most women – who have abortions struggle with their choice at some point. They do not blithely go forward thinking, oh, this is an okay thing to do. The choice to have an abortion is, more often than not, much, much more complicated than that.



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Thought Experiment

posted June 1, 2009 at 10:23 am


I cannot believe that I am even going to say this, because I know it will probably invite a firestorm.
Let me be unequivocally clear – I think that Tiller’s murder was WRONG WRONG WRONG. Not just wrong because it gives the pro-life movement a bad name or anything like that, but really wrong because murder is wrong. There is nothing in the teachings of Jesus to legitimize Tiller’s murder. And from a practical standpoint, such vigilantism makes society unstable, which makes me understand why you would label it terrorism.
That being said, just as an attempt of trying to get in the mind of someone who would think that murdering Tiller was a good idea. . .
If you REALLY think that the life of the baby in the womb is every bit deserving of protection and human rights as the life of a child walking around, as many of us do, then imagine what you would do if you were faced with a man on a crowded playground, methodically shooting child after child in the head. In such a nightmarish situation, I am pretty sure I would have no qualms about shooting that guy to stop the slaughter. I can see how someone would find no difference between the two scenarios.
Again, please don’t misunderstand me, I DO NOT agree with the murder of Tiller, I do not revel in his death, I do not intend to justify the actions of the shooter. But I think there is a logic to the killing which even the strongest of pro-lifers are too squeamish to admit.
The world can be such a sad, ugly place, that such horrors as abortion and murder are a daily reality.



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Your Name

posted June 1, 2009 at 11:11 am


Thank you for your post and follow up comment, TDM. Having a choice is your reproductive decisions is not nessisarily an easy thing. Choosing not to take another persons life is an easy decicision.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 11:45 am


Dear Thought Experiment,
And that is precisely why transgender and gays, women who believe in self-determination are so horribly terrified of your side – you really do equate murdering us with abortion.
Well, at least you’re honest about it. Most of the murdering, torturing conservative Christians around here agree with you in their desire to torture and kill us, just aren’t honest enough to admit that they want to kill us.



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Will

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:01 pm


Let’s not split hairs, this is more than “domestic terrorism.” This is Christian terrorism.



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TheFeministBreeder

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:13 pm


I think we should cut Thought Experiment a break. I think he/she makes a valid point. I’m not saying I agree, AT ALL with the pro-life terrorist, but the argument made is a coherent, thoughful one. It think it was made quite clear that this poster was NOT endorsing this action at all, just trying to make a little sense of something that is otherwise senseless.
No, murder is never okay. No, killing an abortion doctor is NOT okay. But I suppose there are some people who believe that this doctor was on a murderous rampage, and the only way to stop it was to stop him. Why are we all so self-righteous? Don’t we live in a country that sent people to a war to kill thousands of thousands of innocent lives just to get to ONE man who we never even got? Oh, the hypocrisy. America constantly has blood on its hands. And, I hate to say it, it’s usually because of some Christian ideology. Seems to me like religion is the largest cause of bloodshed there ever was. We, as Americans, ignore our murderous ways all the time, so it does not suprise me AT ALL that some people think murder is the answer. Of course it isn’t, but this is the product of living in a gun-toting society.
As Eddie Izzard says “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.. IF they’ve got a gun!”
But hopefully this tragic incident will lead to a nationwide dialogue about the abortion issue. I just hope the ultra-conservatives take at least a little responsibility for the extremists they’ve created.



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Beautiful Wreck

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:14 pm


Dr. Tiller’s death is unequivocally murder and unjustified. I was raised by staunch right to lifers under Randall Terry and my mother, if she was alive would see this as justifiable, just as my neighbors across the street were as gleeful as could be about Dr. Tiller’s death. It sickens me. Being someone for choice has put me in a difficult position with friends and family, but for me, its important.
Also, I don’t believe this is Christian terrorism. I am a Christian. What some so called do in the name of Jesus is inherently wrong, but please don’t lump all of us together because of a few crazies.z8



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NotAMeanGirl

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:19 pm


I have to say, you make a strong point. Killing a Doctor who performs abortions does NOT = a Pro Life stance. Pro-Life should mean, and technically DOES mean, being for ALL life… not just unborn babies.
Militant people of any belief, religious, political, moral, are the most dangerous people in the world. They truly believe the end justifies the means in achieving their goals.
Do I believe abortion is a good thing? Never. Do I believe it is sometimes the RIGHT thing? Yes, sometimes.
Life is NOT black and white… people who believe otherwise need to seek help… or some real life experience.



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Thought Experiment

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:20 pm


“Most of the murdering, torturing conservative Christians around here agree with you in their desire to torture and kill us, just aren’t honest enough to admit that they want to kill us.”
That is not a factual statement. Where are these supposed masses of murdering, torturing conservative Christians? Compare the number of abortions per year that are performed with the number of abortionists that are murdered. I am pretty sure these supposed torture-murder crazy Christians aren’t as big a threat as you are implying.
Yes, there are some Christians who would prefer that abortionists, gays and the like were dead – but they are a minority who are perverting the faith they claim to believe in. Jesus and the teachings of the New Testament are absolutely clear that Christians are supposed to be at peace with sinners and unbelievers, and MOST Christians live by that.
I made it clear that I think Tiller’s murder was wrong, so you were completely unfair to ignore my words and imply that I agree with those who would want to torture or murder anyone. I am even against the death penalty (as I think all consistent pro-life people should be), and so I would not even support the execution of an abortionist, were abortion to be made illegal.
I was simply trying to make clear the stakes we are dealing with when dealing with human lives, and what might be going through someone’s mind when they commit such a heinous act.



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Crunchy

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:23 pm


You can’t argue with extremism in any form.
They will always be right in their own minds..specially if they have convinced themselves that a HIGHER being speaks for them and not you or the victim.
You can’t argue with religion.
When both sides define themselves differently they too…Most pro choicers (me) don’t LIKE the choice..but firmly believe in allowing women to HAVE choice. To have control over our bodies.
But the pro life sides tend to see it as we LOVE abortion!!! Abortion is fun!!! What horrid murderers we are.
Strong words hiding behind faith blurs context and leaves extreme emotion instead of being able to look at society and the reasons behind having a choice.



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Jozet at Halushki

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:37 pm


Every “pro-life” person I know thinks that the act of murdering Dr. Tiller is worthy of condemnation.
I think that there are a lot of sick individuals who take on the mantel of “pro life” and twist it, just as sick individuals play semantics with many words and group names and somehow try to then twist the words to fit an action’s meaning. It doesn’t work. And to get caught up in the semantics game is an exercise in ridiculous futility. IMO.
To say you are “pro life” and to then murder, excludes you from the most basic English definition of the term.
If there is some murderous subsect who calls also itself “Pro Life” then, no, they don’t understand the meaning of the words.
To damn other people who identify as “pro life” because of the actions of individuals who co-opt terminology is also wrong.
It is what it is, but the language is secondary to the act.
I’d call myself an eco-activist. I’d also say that sabotaging a logging facility and endangering lives or booby-trapping someone’s SUV would be beyond the pale green and into blood red. There’s nothing “eco” about killing human mammals. They’ve “actioned” themselves out of the definition. But pointing it out to them is probably not going to make anyone face up to their hypocrisy due to guilt via incorrect terminology.
I just don’t want you to get a headache smacking your head over this. I know what you’re saying, but I’m guessing that grammatical rules aren’t going to be followed when “Thou Shalt Not Kill” is read as merely a suggestion.



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Your Name

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:45 pm


I agree with Thought Experiment. NOTHING justifies murder, and even though I am pro-choice, I know if I was in a room where there was a third trimester baby being aborted while kicking and squirming, knowing that this baby could survive outside the womb, I would probably scream STOP!!! Don’t kill that baby doctor! I can see how someone would want to stop that, particularly when it’s been done hundreds of times. But the truth is, Dr. Tiller helped many women and arranged adoptions as well, he was a good man, obviously murder is never the answer, no matter what.



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Alicia

posted June 1, 2009 at 12:52 pm


I’ve always found it interesting, the way that people react to the abortion debate. In high school, I found myself in the middle of a very heated discussion with a girl who was outraged that I would not join a group of students in marching along a main road with “abortion kills” picket signs. I thought my reasoning was pretty simple: God gave people free will, which means that He gave everyone the right to make their own decisions. It is not for me to tell someone, particularly someone whose circumstances I could never fully understand, how to live their life. I can only determine how I choose to live mine. And while abortion may not be something that I would consider for myself, I will absolutely defend another person’s right to make their own choices.
What is pro-life, really, other than the CHOICE not to support abortion? Some people are not so lucky to have the option, either way.



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Pamela from the dayton time

posted June 1, 2009 at 1:09 pm


I posted about this last october, and reposted it today. There is no excuse for murder. I’m a bible believing Christian, and I’m called to love my neighbors, not judge them. I don’t know where the militant Christians get off thinking that judging and excluding and bad-mouthing is appropriate or reflective of Christ. And it’s embarassing to be grouped with hatred like that, expecially if they’re claiming to follow the teachings of Jesus.
http://daytontime.blogspot.com/2008/10/just-read-whole-thing-it-wont-hurt-you.html



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Thought Experiment

posted June 1, 2009 at 1:17 pm


This same topic is being discussed at another Beliefnet blog, Crunchy Con, in several interesting posts. For example: http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2009/06/tiller-and-the-logic-of-the-pr.html



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churchmouse

posted June 1, 2009 at 2:18 pm


I do not condone what happened to Tiller. I do not mourn his soul but I pray for his family. I pray that if they also condoned what Tiller was doing that his death be a wakeup call to them, that they have a change of heart to see that his acts were evil. I believe things happen for a reason and that good things can come from bad acts. This might wake people up. Those that worked for him, those people sitting in his church. etc.
For a church to tolerate a member who blatantly sinned against God is unbelievable. Had the minister in his church been preaching the gospel message and calling abortion what it really is, MURDER…..Tiller might have stopped. The church failed.
I do not presume to know or judge Tillers heart. But as a Christian I can judge his actions and they were vile, degrading, inhumane acts of violence against Gods living creatures. I have no fear that he will be judged by God.
I pray for the murderer that he repent and ask Gods forgiveness because he committed a grave sin. He took any chance away…that Tiller might have accepted Christ and repented. I pray for his family that they also find peace in Gods arms. They must be devestated today.
If you have a heart, if you have seen an abortion,late-term abortion is changes your life forever. Abortion is violence, it is the most supreme act of child abuse there is and Tiller committed hundreds of thousands acts of violence in his lifetime…….this makes anyone who has compassion and love for their fellow man, cringe. You die inside thinking of it.
I am not perfect and I am dealing with my own anguish and feelings over this. I am praying that God helps me cope with my feelings of joy and elation that Tiller will never be able to crush another childs skull in. His hands will never murder again. For that fact alone, I thank God.



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Juliana

posted June 1, 2009 at 2:39 pm


On the east traditional idea, baby in woman’s womb has a own soul.
they count an age as first year old a pro-life. It is a respectful existance.
And I also am a Catholic. I believe in God. Any life deserve to respect. Nobody can not determine pro-life can live, or not.



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Crunchy

posted June 1, 2009 at 3:19 pm


Churchmouse..how can it be a sin? It isn’t IN the bible…not specifically…there is lots in the bible that just does not work in a modern NON PRE MEDIEVAL SOCIETY. It is hypocrisy to pick and choose what fits your hight horse.
That you can put him in the category of murderer again proves my point against religion and those who hide behind their beliefs by using inappropriate language.
And again….do you and your compatriots have alternatives? Can you come up with better ways to deal with the issue?
Do you even think of all the good he did in his community and how respected he was for that?
No..again..picking and choosing to suite your needs.
This is why I am an atheist.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 3:46 pm


Thought Experiment,
Here are your exact words:
“If you REALLY think that the life of the baby in the womb is every bit deserving of protection and human rights as the life of a child walking around, as many of us do, then imagine what you would do if you were faced with a man on a crowded playground, methodically shooting child after child in the head. In such a nightmarish situation, I am pretty sure I would have no qualms about shooting that guy to stop the slaughter. I can see how someone would find no difference between the two scenarios.”
That is a pretty clear equation of medically indicated abortion (the only kind Dr. Tiller performed) and murdering young children.
You people on the Christian right have done nothing but advocate torture, murder, rape and hatred towards homosexuals, transgender, women who make decisions for themselves and those who support them.
I have absolutely had it with you and your hateful ways. If you are unable to discern that murdering this man is wrong in and of itself then there is no possible hope for any dialogue between us.
“An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth” was replaced by the New Covenant. Whoops, silly me – gay Christians’ views don’t count for you people.
Right, well, who’s next on your list to torture, rape, beat and murder? Another doctor? A transgender? The too-butch woman in that parking lot? Me, as a openly married gay Christian? The Nazis killed by the millions, you fundamentalist Christians have lots to go before you even come close to their number.



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carrien (she laughs at the days)

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:00 pm


There must be some level of cognitive dissonance in a person who can believe that a violent act that takes life is justified in order to prevent violent acts that take life. (The abortionist who thinks it helps women to be free of violence somehow to violently destroy fetuses, and the gunman who thinks that killing an abortionist will stop abortions. Or those who agree with either side.) As Gandhi said, any good that might come is only temporary, for the evil is greater.
It is trying to solve a problem by means that perpetuate the problem. In order to stop violence, of all kinds, we can only look for a solution outside of a system of thinking in which the perpetration of violence is justified. A few phrases come to mind, “Love your enemy… pray for those who persecute you… do good to those who spitefully use you…”
Perhaps if more who claimed to follow Christ took his words to heart Christianity would continue to be relevant, and there wouldn’t be those within it who confuse perpetrating evil with stopping it, on either side of the abortion debate.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:09 pm


Wise words carrien.
Pity those who are torturing, murdering, beating and raping us have no ear for them.
I’ve had it with the fundamentalist Christians. At this point, I’m not going to velvet my claws any longer.
This murder illustrates why it is so important to have hate-crimes legislation and why gay rights are civil rights and human rights.
It’s all one group: They hate independent women, gays and transgendered.



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Thought Experiment

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:12 pm


Panthera –
I am sorry you are obviously so angry. I have not once in my life ever tortured, raped, beaten, or murdered a single person for any reason, nor have I ever advocated for such behavior. I don’t know a single Christian, or non-Christian for that matter, who has. The thought of those things happening to ANYONE makes me physically ill. You don’t know me, what my life is like, or what I think about homosexuality because I never mentioned it – we were talking about abortion.
I guess you don’t understand what a I meant by a “Thought Experiment.” Have you never tried to see things from a perspective other than your own? Just because I may be able to understand the point of view of someone else doesn’t make that MY point of view.
Your emotionally-charged, but factually baseless language, shows just how angry and hurt you are.
Either that or you are a troll, because you have twice deliberately ignored the fact that I did say, repeatedly, that I think the murder of Dr. Tiller was wrong.
Either way, I wish you peace.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:25 pm


Thought Experiment,
You did, after all, state that murdering this doctor was the same as preventing a gunman from murdering children at play.
So before you label me a troll – and if you’ve spent any time here at beliefnet you know that I have very strong opinions but am not a troll – take a moment to analyze just exactly what you said.
I am overjoyed to hear that you don’t intend to go on a killing, torturing, beating and raping spree – frankly that is exactly what those of us who are oppressed by conservative Christians experience every day in the US. The FBI notes more than three murders, near-fatal beatings and rapes of gays and transgender in the US every single week. With an increasing number over the last years.
And, yes, there is a direct connection between those groups of Christians who hate us and those who hate women who are independent.
We just finished a discussion here on beliefnet a few weeks back on torture under the Bush#43 democracy, in which exactly the same people making excuses or justifying this murder supported torture.
Within the last two weeks, not only I but several other gay married Christians here have been told that we are not truly Christian, that our marriages aren’t valid and that the “true” Christians here would gladly tear our marriages apart to “save” us…including taking away children from those of us who have them.
If my reactions seem a bit extreme to you as a new poster here, perhaps this background will help you some. The level of hatred and violence against us which is expressed on this site is very high.
And yes, today I am very sensitive to nuances. Your side just committed murder, again. Anything less than complete (and honest) assurance that you are appalled and will work with your fellow conservative Christians to prevent such a thing from ever happening again is bound to be seen as an endorsement.
We learned to read between the lines over the last eight years.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:39 pm


Though Experiment,
You might also take a look over at crunchycon to see the tenor of their discussions – basically, they are arguing that this is only bad because it will set back the anti-abortion movement, not because a murder was committed.
Read those postings and then you will see why some of us here are angry. This is what Christianity in American in 2009 has become – zero tolerance for gays, transgender and women who decide for themselves.



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Tom

posted June 1, 2009 at 4:50 pm


Panthera, I can assure you that the vast majority of pro-lifers are disgusted by this, if for no other reason, that it will seriously undermine the efforts of those of us who pursue peaceful, legal means of dialogue and lobbying to mitigate abortion. It will also give pro-choicers more ammo and rhetoric and potentially cost preborns more lives in the long run than it will immediately save.
However, pro-aborts (or ‘pro-chiocers’)commit violence way more frequently than prolifers, yet it rarely gets reported in the MainStreem Media: http://abortionviolence.com/
Yet I won’t do you the disservice of erroneously stating that ‘your side’ commits more atrocity than mine and would appreciate it if you’d think twice before making statements like these in the future. I also won’t hold you accountable to do ‘everything in your power’ to ensure that this isn’t allowed to continue, though it might be a good idea.
And bear in mind that this isn’t about ‘gay/transwhatever rights’ though you’d apparently prefer to make it as such. Steve Waldman shoes poles of emerging voters who tend to be predominately prolife as well as pro ‘gay rights’.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 5:49 pm


Tom,
That is a reasoned analysis.
I do, however, see a teeny, tiny difference between people on my side saying nasty things to people on your side and on your side barging into churches and shooting people in the head…
You raise an interesting and valid question – are self-determination rights for women a different category than human status and civil rights for gay and transgender?
I certainly am aware that there are conservative Christians who genuinely feel that in denying me human status, they are following God’s will – but they stop short of physically attacking me, content with just trying to tear my family to pieces.
Perhaps from your side of the culture wars things look more nuanced. From my side – the attacks upon gay Christians are very vicious, the horrible things which are said to me, Husband, Celtic Dragon…and many others here surely have met your notice.
Can you see why (speaking purely for me) it is hard to find any thing in my heart other than contempt, fear and fury with your side?
And, frankly, if you follow the discussion here and across the conservative Christian spectrum, those threatening us make no distinction between women and gays, transgender and non-literalistic Christians. You pour out hatred and your filth upon us all equally.
Yes, I do think this attack will make it harder for your side to continue to scream us down over the next time. Just as the torture revelations over the last six weeks or so have forced many Christians off the fence and onto my side – the side which says God does not authorize us to murder, torture, beat and rape those with whom we disagree.
Furious as I am, at least I am talking to you. You may rest assured that a vast number of gay Christians and the even greater number of non-Christians out there are done with listening and talking to your side, at all.
You know, if just once your side would acknowledge my humanity, desist from saying my marriage is not real, stop saying I am not a real Christian, stop saying boldly that they wish to tear my husband from me, I might have more tolerance for your position at such times as these.
But your side doesn’t. Just the opposite.
All you offer is hatred, murder, torture, rape and beatings. Go out and take a firm stand against this. Then, maybe I and those of us who are pro-rights for women will be willing to believe you don’t really support murder.
Until then, this just proved our point.
This man did not appear out of nowhere, the more time passes the more links are found between him and your side. I suspect part of what makes me furious are the attempts by your side (Erin Manning being one of the worst enablers of these murderers) to pretend this man was acting completely apart from your views.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 6:21 pm


I’ve looked through various blogs across the spectrum this evening and one thing stands out:
The anti-rights-for-women side is making excuses for this murder and doing their very best to distance themselves from what happened.
My side is doing our best to hold their noses to it and force them to acknowledge that yes, they are very much the enablers of this murderer – he is their own and single responsibility.
I wonder just how incredibly twisted and perverted and hateful people must be to justify murder?
Really, truly, in killing this man the conservative Christians just slammed the door in the face of every single one of us who have put up with the insults and threats to engage in dialogue.
Frankly, at this point, nothing short of abject apologies – without the obscene justifications (Mommy, I had to kill his kitten – he drew mustaches on all my super-heros!) being made is going to be greeted with anything except derision.
People who are truly pro-life don’t go around justifying murder.



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Cara

posted June 1, 2009 at 8:54 pm


There seems to be some confusion as to what it means to be pro-life. For the majority of us, it includes the respect for life for all humans. From the newly conceived child to the doctors who choose to end that new life. We believe that each baby deserves to grow, to change, to take that first breath and to live their life, for good or bad. There are many people I do not respect on a personal level, but I would never argue that they do not deserve to live.
George Tiller did not deserve to die, neither did the babies that perished in his clinic. As a self-determining woman, it is my responsibility to protect those who cannot protect themselves. It is my responsibility to speak for those who cannot. Who are we to decide whose life is more precious, to pick and choose which child survives and is allowed to grow. As a society we have made the decision to protect those who are able to protest, but not the silent victims of our indifference. No one deserves to be murdered, but it is especially sad to hear of lives cut short before they had a chance. George Tiller had a chance to live, love, take part in society and make choices, but what of those babies?



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Crunchy

posted June 1, 2009 at 9:34 pm


but Cara a blanket ‘we love all humanity’ does not focus on the issues does it? It doesn’t help unwanted kids get adopted. It doesn’t help our failing childcare/social services.
Saying you love everyone is not a get out of jail free card.
And then it assumes that the pro choice side does NOT love all humanity.
I think the majority of pro choice folks love ALL humanity on all levels…and sadly choices for women LIKE abortion have to be a part of that.
We live in a harsh cruel and unfair world. LOVE has nothing to do with it.
Respect for the harsh realities of being a human being is far more important.
We live in an unfair world.
Religion won’t fix it.
Governments can’t fix it.
LOVE won’t fix it either



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Ben

posted June 1, 2009 at 9:38 pm


Churchmouse,
Your post has one huge problem (and probably others as well,but I’ll just bring up this particular one).
If, as you say, the assassin took away Dr. Tiller’s chance to repent, then what he did is so much more evil than anything Tiller could have done; yet, you imply that if he repents, he’ll be forgiven.
How can you believe such a contradiction.
As for me, I’m convinced that many Christians have “unrepented” sins when they die. If we have to recall, remember, and atone for every sin we commit, then what was Jesus’s death for? I do of course know of the importance of repentance that Jesus spoke of. I’ve always interpreted this as a general repentance rather than a requirement to itemize our sins.



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Panthera

posted June 1, 2009 at 9:40 pm


If you really understood Christ’s message, you wouldn’t be making excuses for this murder and the murderer.
You would be on your knees praying to God for forgiveness – it is you and your obscenely twisted perversion of God’s word that has led to this murder.
You fundamentalists (or conservative or literalists or whatever name you want to call yourselves) have gone too far. The Bush era is over, your christianist power-grab has failed.
Had you even an iota of decency, you would be asking the family of this murdered man – killed by your own ilk – for forgiveness.
Instead, you are here offending every sense of decency by blaming the victim for the crime your side committed.



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churchmouse

posted June 2, 2009 at 2:09 am


Crunchy what is the goal of every abortionist? His goal is to kill. Kill what? A pig, a horse, a kangaroo? His job is not done until the living human being is killed in the womb and there are many ways to do this. The heart starts beating at around 20 days……so you tell me that when people kill, stop a heart from beating intentionally what is that called?
Christ does not use the term abortion, but he does not use the term pedophilia either. Do you think He would condone the actions of the pedophile? He does not talk specifically about rape. Would He condone rape? If you do a deductive Bible study on how God regards His creation in the womb……you would see that in no way would Christ condone abortion. Abortion is murder.
I do not pick and chose sin and toss it out of the bible. God is specific about what sin is and as a believer I take it seriously. Tiller was a mass murderer. The man who murdered Tiller is a murderer. They both took lives without their permission. They both sinned against a Holy God.
Better ways to deal with this issue you say. I am against capital punishment and violence. Tillers acts were violent ones. He killed children especially after viability. If you say the woman should have the choice to kill, then you have to leave that choice open even if she wants to kill a baby up until its natural delivery. Do you condone that?
You do not need be a person that believes in God to know that abortion is wrong. I work and stand with a lot of people at PP clinics that are atheists. They know what science says about fetal development and science says life starts at conception.
You think Tiller was respected.,,, How do you know? I do not respect anyone that would have had anything to do with Tiller. I cant believe that everyone that went to his church condoned his actions. I question their faith quite frankly, especially the pastor.
What am I picking?
Panthera said, “You people on the Christian right have done nothing but advocate torture, murder, rape and hatred towards homosexuals, transgender, women who make decisions for themselves and those who support them.”
Oh please, get off your high horse. I have never advocated violence. The fact that he has not been killed up to now says something. If you think there are so many fanatics out there then why hasn’t he been killed before now? Why aren’t there acts of violence like this all the time? Could you cite how many acts of violence and killing have been done in the past? There are thousands of abortionists and clinics all over this country…millions of children killed……how many acts panthera? You are a bitter person and you obviously like to place blame even if its on the innocent. You are the one who condones violence on people, the unborn.
Why don’t you stop hating enough to read a post for what it really says. I do not condone acts of violence. Get it……That goes for the guy who killed Tiller.
I see why you hate me. I oppose gay marriage. I get it now. You want me to tolerate your beliefs but you have no intention of tolerating mine. Right?
How many acts of extreme violence happen to gays every year? How many are killed? Its low and you know it. You just like to whine and place blame. I have never hurt a fly and I don’t condone violence of any kind. I simply believe in the Word and the Word is specific about lifestyle choices. I knew you would turn this around off the unborn and on to gay marriage. That is all you care about.
The fact is this is all about the unborn child in the womb. The unborn that you condone women the choice to kill. And the sad thing is, you don’t see this as a violent act. If you know pain, then I don’t understand why you do not side with the unborn in the womb.



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churchmouse

posted June 2, 2009 at 2:16 am


The topic here is abortion and Tillers murder not homosexual rights and hating Christians.
Ben, If Tiller was not saved then the guy who murdered him and cut his life short, stopped the chance of any conversion Tiller might have made. I condemn the act of violence and recognize it as murder. But Tiller has murdered thousands upon thousands of viable innocent babies. He stopped their lives before they even had a chance to live. And he did it in a brutal way. I won’t begin to say which is worse, I know God will judge them both.
I believe what Christ said and he said that basically one sin will keep you from heaven and that is disbelief in Him. You seem to want to put different sins in order of severity. Christ said if you have sinned and broken one you have broken them all. Sin is sin.
The thief on the cross was a murderer. We don’t know how many he killed but to Christ it did not matter because he forgave him on the spot. They guy had done nothing to deserve being saved. He didn’t do great and heroic acts for Christ, was not even baptized. Yet Christ saved him by faith. And the same thing could have happened to Tiller. It could happen to anyone who calls upon the name of the Lord.
If someone repents and God knows his heart is pure, then like the scriptures says he will be saved. I did not write the Word……but that is what God says.
You are right there is no way we can remember every sin we commit. But we do not have to do that. I am a believer and I put my trust in the Lord. I try to do what He commands me to do and I take it seriously. I try to live the Word. When I fall short I ask for guidance and help to get back on the path. But God disciplines those He loves and I have felt his backhand more than once. I understand where you are coming from……and I don’t believe we have to itemize sin either.
Panthera I did not murder Tiller and I am not responsible. I would never kill anyone, what don’t you get here? You are so hateful and bitter that you don’t even listen, you don’t want to. You hate me because I take the bible literally. You want me to say that homosexual, heterosexual sin outside marriage is ok. I am not going to do that because that is not what the Word says. God calls sex outside marriage sin. Marriage Christ said was one man and one woman.
Stop the blame game. Should I blame you for Jeff Curleys horrific death just because you are gay?



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Panthera

posted June 2, 2009 at 5:29 am


Churchmouse,
The hateful rhetoric and the self-righteous rejection of those of us who do not share the views of those of you on the far Christian right created the atmosphere which made this possible.
Go right ahead and try to deny responsibility for this murder. No, you did not personally pull the trigger.
You and those of you who have relegated women, gays and transgender to sub-human status are, however, complicit in this crime. You are an enabler of such people and whinging away here about how nasty the big bad panther is to you is not going to win any sympathy for your side.
Rather the opposite – take a look around the internet and serious newspapers this morning. Except for the far right Christians, everyone is disgusted with you and what your hatred has wrought. Murder is wrong.
In contrast to homosexuality or the right of a woman to self-determination, it is not only wrong, but so wrong that God added it to the list of commandments.
Remember those? No exceptions were made for killing people you do not like.



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Their Bad Mother

posted June 2, 2009 at 9:02 am


churchmouse (and others) – I think that a central point of dispute in debates over abortion rights is whether the fetus is in fact a “living human being,” or to what extent we attribute it rights. It is a life (that’s my belief, anyway), but does that mean that we attribute to it full beinghood? It is not clear to everybody that that is true (indeed, the Catholic Church didn’t hold it to be true until relatively recently in its history.) There is, however, no debate about whether George Tiller was a living human being. That’s the key difference.
Late-term abortion is deplorable, even to those who have need to choose it – but that it is deplorable doesn’t mean that it isn’t sometimes necessary, as in the case of severe genetic defects, etc. To reduce all such choice to ignorant, sinful violence is itself ignorant. It’s much more complicated than that.



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Alison

posted June 2, 2009 at 9:18 am


This is such a complex issue that I don’t even know where to start. I do know, however, that taking life in the name of a cause is wrong, regardless of how noble you think your cause is. Why can’t we understand that?
I’m with you, Panthera. I’m disgusted by the kind of illogic that justifies murder of people already living in the name of attempting to defend the lives of those not yet born. It’s sickening. You’re very right: there are no exceptions to the commandment of “Thou shalt not kill” to include people you don’t like. I second that emotion.



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hootie1fan

posted June 2, 2009 at 9:29 am


For some who claim to be pro-life, life begins at conception and ends at birth.



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Snarky Amber

posted June 2, 2009 at 9:41 am


I feel that most of the anti-abortion posters here are not really very familiar with the work George Tiller did. I suggest they read some of the heart-wrenching first-person stories of women who have had late-term abortions, rather than listening to rhetoric produced from their side of the debate.
I have read many accounts this week of women’s experiences with Dr. George Tiller. All of these women loved their babies, were excited about becoming mothers, but then either found that their fetuses were suffering horrific pain in some cases, had unimaginable birth defects that would make viability out of the womb an impossibility, or that their babies would undoubtedly spend most of their lives in hospitals or in permanent vegetative states. Sometimes, their baby was already dead, and the only choice the mother had was to give birth (placing her at high health risk) or have her baby’s body extracted by a trained physician.
In still other cases, the prospect of giving birth would potentially kill both mother and child. However, in all cases I read (and I have read many), these women reported an incredible sorrow and unimaginable pain in their decisions, made with the advice of their personal physicians, to see George Tiller, who was one of only three doctors performing late-term abortions.
He did not indiscriminately murder children, as so many have implied. He helped women humanely terminate their pregnancies because the alternatives were unimaginable. He was kind, caring, and concerned with the health and psychological well-being of mothers in unbearably traumatic situations. His funeral services helped women to give the loss of their pregnancies. His commitment to women’s health got him shot, his clinic burned, and it eventually cost him his life.
I urge many of you here to examine the issue much more carefully than I feel you have. I am so confused by those who would shoot a dog rather than let it suffer, but then condemn the work George TIller did to prevent pain and suffering.



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Snarky Amber

posted June 2, 2009 at 9:47 am


I meant “to cope with the loss of their pregnancies.



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churchmouse

posted June 2, 2009 at 2:09 pm


Their Bad Mother…
What is the abortionists goal? His goal is to stop the heart,(the heart starts beating at around 20 days) to end the life, to terminate that which is living in the womb. If you believe in God and you read the Bible it is very clear what God considers life. And He considers life in the womb a person. I am not going to cite all the verses that back this up, if you want them I would be happy to post or send them to you.
Tiller was in a Christian Church (where he was a member), when he was murdered. I am sure he read the scripture but he still blatantly sinned against God. The church backed him up, his pastor as well. His goal went beyond God because he did what he thought was right and not what God said. He murdered, he stopped the heart of living human beings in every stage of development. If you say the unborn should not have the same worth, respect, protection in the womb as those of us who are living and born, then you also condone and think a baby that is viable, late term abortions are ok. You are playing God if you even try to determine when life in the womb becomes a person.
You said that “late-term abortion is deplorable, even to those who have need to choose it”
No one has to choose it. If the woman’s life were in danger they would not be at Tillers clinic, they would be in a hospital. It should be deplorable……it’s a savage act. Have you seen one? I can send you a clip of an actual one if you would like to view it.
You also said, “- but that it is deplorable doesn’t mean that it isn’t sometimes necessary, as in the case of severe genetic defects, etc.”
So if the baby is not perfect it’s ok to kill it. How about a hair lip? What if the mother does not want to deal with that one. Or if it’s born with no arms? How about if its a midget? I cant believe how people put a value on life…what gets to live and what does not.
This issue is not complicated or complexed at all. That which is in the womb is a living human being, however small. It is a helpless innocent life. No one should have the right to take it away whether it is inside the womb or outside. And if you do, you are playing God. This should be a no brainer.
The man that murdered Tiller should be brought to justice and I pray he will. God will judge both men.
I am curious Alison if you condone that police kill in the line of what they see is their duty, that our government go to war and innocent people are killed.
Snarky your post is nauseating. Tiller did nothing humanely. He terminated children in the womb in inhumane ways. Have you ever seen a late term abortion? I can send you a link if you would like to see what Tiller did.
He admits that he killed over two thousand a year. At two thousand per abortion, he made the killing business profitable for himself. Nice income wouldn’t you say?
Your information is false. The abortions he did, the mothers life was not in danger or they would have been in a real hospital. And in almost all cases both lives can be saved. The women that killed their babies in his death chamber wanted perfect babies. He killed them so they would not have to deal with a imperfect babies.
God help you if you think anyone that could do abortions are heroic. I can only imagine what else you condone.



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Joy

posted June 2, 2009 at 4:49 pm


To Churchmouse:
I am aghast at your lack of research, lack of understanding, and lack of credible information around this discussion.
You state above that the information about Dr. Tiller’s clients is false. Provide your sources, then, so that we all may learn your truth.
The women that made use of Dr. Tiller’s services were indeed in dire circumstances. Mentally, emotionally, and physically. Read some of the accounts on CNN, including one mother’s letter to Obama about the horrible and devastating circumstances of her very much wanted pregnancy. http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2009/06/01/a-personal-perspective-on-late-term-abortion/
Google “Anencephaly”, and see the images of babies born with this condition. Argue then, that this baby was truly alive… A beating heart alone is not enough to determine or to sustain life. Period.
I pray that instead of preaching false information and vitriol, that you take some time to attempt to learn a little bit about what desperate circumstances some women truly face in their pregnancies, and why they might make the choices they made. Some compassion for those in difficult circumstances is what Christ is all about, right? Especially if those circumstances are considered socially heinous?



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churchmouse

posted June 2, 2009 at 6:18 pm


Joy you want me to refer to CNN the most liberal of all sources? No thanks.
My information came from Mark Crutchers book Lime 5. Also Randy Alcorns ProLife Answers to ProChoice Arguments.
Why don’t you provide documented information on the conditions of the so-called women who went to Tillers clinic. Then tell me if they were dying, in such emotional trauma why they were not in a hospital. You know why? Because no hospital in America will perform late term abortions like Tiller did. That is why women sought Tiller out.
Read Lime 5. It contains documented cases (includes the case file numbers) filed at court houses all over the country about the reality of what really is going on in behind the doors of the abortion industry. This is the stuff the pro-aborts, PP dont want the public to see.
I have worked in this field for over twelve years and I know what I am talking about. Of course if you know what your talking about you have read Lime 5 and Alcorns book, right?
Why aren’t hospitals all over aborting children in the conditions that you talk about? If this was a legal service Tiller was providing then whats the big deal, why all the hoopla? Why was he being investigated, if what he was doing was such a great service to woman?
You are ill educated in this and I suggest you step out of your pro-abort box and read up about Tiller. Start with Lime 5 and read court cases. Then come back and tell me what I am saying is false.
Christ would not in any way condone what Tiller did. Provide scripture to back up slaughtering the unborn just because they are not perfect. Make a biblical case for Tiller and do relate it to the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill.
You obviously believe in selective killing right?
Have you seen an abortion, particularaly a late term abortion? I would be happy to send you a file where you can watch one. It will change your life, but then maybe not. Some pro-aborts hearts are just hardened and an abortion would be nothing to watch.
You talk about lack of understanding……pleaze. You seem to have no concern, no empathy, no sense of right or wrong if you think crushing the skull of A LIVING HUMAN BEING IS OK, especially up until natural delivery.
As hard as circumstances might be, no woman if she loved her child would subject them to something as henious as an abortion. People today do not want to deal with imperfection and they certainly do not want to deal with a less than perfect child.
And if the woman is Christian they should have the faith in God that He will decide when to take their little one home.
Tiller actions were evil.



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churchmouse

posted June 2, 2009 at 6:45 pm


Was Tiller respected by his peers? I know many posters here obviously idolized him and consider him a martyr.
Lime 5 by Mark Crutcher
Page 177
Project Choice, sent a survey to 961 doctors who do abortions as their primary business. Having recieved a large response, it can be considered reliable. Among others, questions were asked regarding the way abortionists perceive their place with in the broader medical community:
69% felt they were not respected by the rest of the medical community.
65% felt ostracized for doing abortions
61% have been verbally confronted by a pro-life physician
60% feel their prestife has been damage because they do abortions
51% feel isolated from the medical community for doing abortions
19% have been denied hospital privileges because they perform abortions
Abortionist Morris Wortmn said, “Abortion has failed to escape its back alley associations.,,,it’s still the dark side of medicine.”
M*A*S*H episode…10/19/73
Henry: “May I remind you both that not everybody you’ll meet down there is going to be lovable Colonel Henry Blake.”
Hawkeye: “What are you tryin to tell us, lovable Colonel Henry Blake?”
Henry: “Just take my advice-don’t show up looking like a couple of freelance abortionists. Shape up.”
That sums up Tillers multi-million dollar profession.



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Panthera

posted June 3, 2009 at 3:49 am


Joy,
I admire you. I’ve given up trying to reason with churchmouse.
Whenever I return to my home from the US, people ask me why the Americans seem so bogged down by a hateful minority of conservative Christians.
I answer, “because there aren’t enough good Christians willing to stand up to them.”
People like you take away the validity of my answer. For that, I am deeply grateful.
Just think – for another four weeks, I am a human being, married to a wonderful man. Soon as I land in the US, I go back to sub-human status.
I can only survive it, knowing this hatefulness is coming to an end. How on earth do you, as a woman, live through this every day? I should go mad being dismissed as you and the other intelligent, literate women here are by the conservative Christians. How did you survive the Bush era?



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churchouse

posted June 3, 2009 at 4:46 pm


Well panthera maybe there are more people standing on the Word that won’t cave into YOUR IDEA of how the scriptures should read and be interpreted, than you think.
It is easy to see what God says is sin. You just cant cope with what God says.In that case you should take it up with Him, not me. I am not going to change my stance, its scriptural.
You cant force people to accept something they find in opposition to God. The thing is you don’t want just the marriage laws to change you want people to accept and embrace the lifestyle or else. I won’t do it.
The fact is it’s not just about sharing opinions, there is definite hatred on your side, you can see it in your posts. You want to FORCE US….to accept.
This quote from Steve Warren appeared in The Advocate, a homosexual magazine.
“Now the tide has turned. We have at last “come out” and in doing so we have exposed the mean-spirited nature of Judeo-Christian morality. You have been narrow-minded and self-righteous. But with the help of a growing number of your own membership, WE ARE FORCING YOU TO RECANT EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BELIEVED OR SAID ABOUT SEXUALITY.”
And Warren wasn’t finished…look at his list of demands.
“ 1. Henceforth, homosexuality will be spoken of,IN ALL YOUR CHURCHES AND SYNAGOGUES as an honorable estate.
2. You can either let us marry people of the same sex, or better yet abolish marriage altogether, since it will give lie to everything you had done or said about sexuality.
3. You will also instruct your young people in homosexual as well as heterosexual behavior and will go out of your way to make certain that homosexual youths are allowed to date, attend religious functions together, openly display affection, and enjoy each others sexuality without embarrassment or guilt.
4. If any of the older people in your midst object, you will deal with them sternly, making certain they renounce their ugly and ignorant homophobia or SUFFER PUBLIC HUMILITATION.
5. You will also make certain that all of the prestige and resources of your institutions are brought to bear on the community, so that laws are passed forbidding discrimination against homosexuals and HEAVY PUNISHMENTS ARE ASSESSED.
6. Finally, we will in all likelihood want to expunge a number of passages from your Scriptures and rewrite others, eliminating preferential treatment of marriage and using words that will allow for homosexual interpretations of passages.”
Steve Warren, “Warning to the Homophobes,” The Advocate, September 1987, as quoted in “Sodomy-The pride of Liberal Secularism,”
Now look at #6. Rewrite Gods Word to make it fit the sin.
I will die before I do this.
And if that was not enough he said this.
““If all these things do not come to pass quickly, we will subject ORTHODOX JEWS and CHRISTIANS to the most sustained hatred and vilification in recent memory. WE HAVE CAPTURED THE LIBERAL ESTABLISHMENT AND THE PRESS. We have already beaten you on a number of battlefields. And we have the pirit of the age on our side. You have neither the faith nor the strength to fight us, so you might a well surrender now.”
The thing Warren forgets….God is the final judge. He is in control and will pour out his wrath on the wicked and unrepentant.
It is obvious who hates here. You hate, not me. I simply stand on scripture that has endured the test of time. It is sin for anyone to have sex unless they are married….one man and one woman joined together as one. Why do you hate me for simply following Gods Word? You want to rewrite the Word to make some sin acceptable. This is anti-christ.
My son is living with his fiance. THEY ARE SINNING, THE SAME AS YOU ARE. I did not make the rules God did.
Now tell me panthera Warren wants the bible changed because obviously he is a Christian. I wonder if some of the Scriptures he wants to change are those about showing Christ-like love? Look at his statements, does he show love and tolerance?
Is this the profile of the new political correctness, the radical face of cultural diversity and tolerance?
God help us if it is.



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Panthera

posted June 3, 2009 at 5:18 pm


Oh, churchmouse, why do you keep dragging those tired, paranoid phrases out?
Come. I live in a civilized country, one in which standards for treating children are higher than yours. One in which the rules for getting an abortion are far stricter than yours. One in which divorce is less common, health care and education for children universal and even animals have more rights than a child does in many of your states.
We also have (and have had for many years) gay marriage. Gay adoption.
There are still churches which preach against us. The Catholic church, tho’ far, far more loving than many bishops in the US are, is still opposed to gay marriage.
The ratio of gay to straight (including children growing up in gay families) is still the same as it ever was.
We have longer life spans, far lower crime (especially violent crime) and nobody starving on our streets.
Your paranoia and fear mongering is absurd.
If you truly need to believe that God hates me, fine. Just, keep that belief out of the secular sphere. There are other Christians besides your know-nothing sect and we have just as much right to practice our Christianity as do you.
My marriage is legally valid in the secular state, my marriage is seen as Christian by my church and my husband and I share a love which goes back nearly one-quarter century. We have no need to bring you into our monogamous love.
As my fundamentalist Christian students (always have six or seven from the US studying here) say: Chillax. Nobody, really and truly, nobody is going to be coming for you and trying to bring you over to the “dark side”.



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churchmouse

posted June 4, 2009 at 12:45 am


Panthera I noticed that you did not address the quote I gave from Warren. You must agree with him. He certainly shows great hatred doesn’t he…such Christian love.
And for your information I NEVER SAID THAT GOD HATED YOU. I SAID THAT GOD HATES SIN AND THAT YOU ACCORDING TO THE BIBLE ARE SINNING AS IS ANYONE WHO IS HAVING SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE. THE SCRIPTURES SAY MARRIAGE IS BETWEEN ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
I would like you to cite scripture from anywhere in the bible where God condones sex outside marriage. give me some examples anywhere of couples God has blessed in marriage that are same sex. He only talks about marriage between one man and woman. Your church obviously has found scripture where god says its ok. Did they also find scriptures that say adultry is ok too?
Your church is not standing on the Word and your marriage is not valid according to scripture.
I have no idea where you live. I do know this. There is not a country on earth that helps people like we do. We are morally going down the tubes but then if your country even allows abortion, your in the same boat. Funny you make fun of our country about abortion and you condone it. I would think you would be high fiving us.
What paradise and utopia do you live in?



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Panthera

posted June 4, 2009 at 4:02 am


churchmouse,
When did I ever state that I take the entire Bible literally?
I don’t.
Neither do you.
You are just looking for an excuse to maintain your hatred. Cherry picking the Bible gives you one.



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churchmouse

posted June 4, 2009 at 11:28 am


And what about Warrens statement panthera? Can’t address it can you?
So how do you determine which scripture should be tossed out?
Do you believe Jesus said that He was the ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER?
And what about adultry? Is that another sin that really isn’t a sin? In Leviticus there is a long line of sin God detests. Is homosexuality the only one that isnt sin and the rest are sin? Or do you toss the entire book of Leviticus out because you dont believe any of it.
And where are those verses where God condones marriage between same sex people?
Are you still searching for them?
As I said I don’t hate you and neither does God. But sin is sin and sin separates you from God. The fair reading of Leviticus proves that God calls homosexual and heterosexual sin outside marriage an abomination and these opinions can’t be set aside. The New Testament speaks with even more clarity about homosexuality. There is strong condemnation of ALL sexual sin in the Bible, whether it’s homosexual OR heterosexual. This topic happens to be about homosexuality, if it were about adultery, this issue wouldn’t change. God says that is sin as well.
Why should churches remain silent on this issue and cave into political correctness? God didn’t. He has not been silent on this issue, nor has He changed His position. This has nothing to do with loving someone or not. This has to do with actions that DO NOT PLEASE GOD.
My religion does NOT teach to hate the homosexual. If you had read the Bible you would know that the only sin that will keep you from going to heaven, is to deny Christ, it’s NOT homosexuality. If you do not accept Jesus then you do not have forgiveness or eternal life.
You want me and others like me to say homosexuality is ok with God. I see NO proof by scriptures that that it is acceptable. For a church to accept sinners, to love them, minister to them and help them find deliverance from bondage is one thing. For a church to accept homosexual behavior in the congregation or anywhere else and imply that it is normal is a surrender to scriptures and political correctness so valued today. Today it’s more important to stand on what the world says is the truth, then to stand on God’s truth.
I think your problem is not with tolerance, but with Jesus’ authority. You don’t want to be told what you are doing is wrong. And anyone who stands against what you say is intolerant. I am to cave into what you stand on (you have not provided one scripture to back up your position) in the name of tolerance or I am a hateful person…..but you on the other hand do not have to be tolerant and can call me any name in the book because tolerance does not apply to you. Is Warren tolerant? Does he show the love you say I dont show?
What happened with abortion is now happening with homosexuality. Legalization implies morality. People will more easily engage in legal activity than illegal ones.
Abortion was once thought to be murder by our society. We legalized it and today its a womans right to kill. She can pay to have someone kill her child.
We better be very careful about what we legalize…everything has consequences but not are positive. There is a method to the homosexual agenda. They work very hard to change the morals of a nation to gain acceptance into mainstream society.
No society will survive without active enforcement of moral standards. You are right we seem to be losing ours in America.
Mat 19:4-6 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female. And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”
This says it all unless you can find an example of a couple of the same sex marrying or in Christs own words states that sex outside the marriage of one man and one woman is ok.



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Al

posted June 5, 2009 at 2:44 am


Re: Churchmouse
I’m sorry, but what gives you the authority to make statements like “Christ would not in any way condone what Tiller did”? Unless you’ve got a direct line to Christ himself, I don’t believe that you are qualified to make such bold claims. Christ showed love to some of the most hated people in society. He showed them compassion. I choose to believe that He would look upon Dr. Tiller with compassion. I wish that instead of using the Bible as a tool to justify hate, more people would use it as a lesson to show each other love and compassion.
The Bible was not written by God. It was written by men. Men who are imperfect and probably sinners, just like the rest of us. We would all do well to remember that before using a BOOK to justify acts of violence and hatred towards others, especially murder. What happened to Dr. Tiller is NOT okay and can not be justified by words in any book.



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churchmouse

posted June 5, 2009 at 12:55 pm


I read the Word and can see exactly what Christ would condone. It’s not just one scripture you have to take the entire Bible and do a study on His views of life and marriage etc.
My direct line is the Word and I use it to make all of lifes decisions. It is clear that adultry is a sin. I do not sleep around on my husband. It is a sin to steal so I do not take what is not mine….etc.
Christ was specific about what sin is. He showed love and he told them what would happen if they did not stop sinning. Christ talked about hell and what happens there more than He ever talked about love and heaven.
If he showed compassion to everyone then there would be no hell would there. He judges us against His Word and He is the only one that knows our hearts. He is specific what happens to someone who does not accept Him. We have the time on earth to either accept or reject Him. After we die we no longer can make a claim for Christ. That is why He came, to save the lost. If He does not do what the scriptures say, especially by punishing unrepentant sinners…then the Word was a joke.
There are a lot of things in the Bible. People who dont get it only talk about the God of love. But why would Christ want those in heaven that denied Him. God is more than a God of love. He is a God that shows His Wrath on the unrighteous.
Do you know what the gospel is? The gospel is the power of God to save believers from the wrath to come. And this gospel – this good news of Jesus’ death and resurrection – has that power to save believers from God’s wrath, because in the gospel, day by day, week after week, year after year, God keeps on revealing his righteousness as a gift to be received by faith and for faith, so that those who have their righteousness from God (and not themselves) will not perish but have everlasting life.
Knowing the nature of sin and wrath should cause people to love the gospel. Gods wrath exists.
Romans 1:17-18. “In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” (18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”
The Bible was written by men who were handpicked by God to write His message. It’s a love letter God wrote to those that love Him. The Bible guides us on what we should believe and how we should behave. And God is specific on the details. The Bible guides us on what we should believe and how we should behave.
A lot of people toss scriptures out they don’t like. This is wrong and ungodly.
“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16
We wouldn’t know who God is without the Bible. It provides the foundation for our faith in Jesus, as it records what Jesus said and did.
The man who killed Tiller is a murderer based on the Word. I have no doubt he will be brought to justice.
And God personally will bring Tiller to justice.



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freelunch

posted June 5, 2009 at 4:24 pm


Churchmouse,
What evidence do you have that your interpretation of the Bible is valid? How do you know that you are not wrong when you lecture the rest of us about what you think it means?



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churchmouse

posted June 7, 2009 at 12:58 am


The Bible is not that hard to understand and interpret.
Take for example this that Christ said.
“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, all power is given to me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of The Father, and of The Son and of The Holy Ghost; Teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always even unto the end of the world. Amen” Matthew 28:19-20
This is pretty specific and easy to understand isn’t it?
In fact it’s so simple a child can understand it.
And these scripture.
“I tell you the truth, unless a man is born again, he cannot see the Kingdom of God… unless a man is born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the Kingdom of God (John 3:3,5).”
“I am the Door [Gate]… by Me if any man enter in, he shall be saved (John 10:9a).”
“‘So how can we know the way?’ Jesus answered, ‘I am the Way [Path]’… (John 14:5,6ff).”
Jesus says He is the way and that there is no other way to be saved. How else could one interpret this?
“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16
And this is simple.
People do not like to know that what they are doing is wrong, even if scripture plainly states it. They look for an out and they try to twist it to fit their lifestyle.
I take the bible literally because scripture says that all of it is God breathed. You cant take any out and you can’t add to it.
“Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” Romans 10:17



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Al

posted June 8, 2009 at 3:24 pm


*Blinks*
I think we all need to read “The Year of Living Biblically” and then see if maybe we can’t leave out parts of scripture here and there in 2009… Just sayin’.



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Religious Left

posted June 9, 2009 at 8:47 pm


Oh, Churchmouse, Churchmouse Churchmouse…..
I follow the scripture, too
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 “When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house; and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails; And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.”
Every time I pillage a village,I grab the prettiest dame by the hair, lock her downstairs while she wails for her family, then do as the ol’ good book says and rape her.
See how silly we sound when we admit to following the bible literally?



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CleveMama

posted June 14, 2009 at 6:41 am


I for one am staunchly pro-life and very much against the killing of any abortion providers. Like it or not, we are a country of laws, and being a vigilantiasm cannot be applauded as a way to get your point across or make change. BTW you would be hard pressed to find any mainstream pro-life group condoning this killing. This kind of wacko behavior just fires up the left and provides ammo to their argument that christians are loony, etc. etc. 2 steps forwardy, 25 steps back.



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pagansister

posted June 14, 2009 at 3:18 pm


Have tried to read through most of this discussion…all 60 of them, but what stands out is comments made by a few posters (especially one) who think that an abortion is an easy decision…and from some posters who think that there is NEVER a reason for one. Guess they wish that the women who had to make that decision (especially those with Dr. Tiller, during the 3rd trimester) had kept the dead child inside and just “delivered” a rotting corpse or the one who was carrying a child whose brain was outside it’s skull, or other really horrible birth defects that were discovered during the pregnancy, that guaranteed a dead baby or one a couple of hours of “life”(?) after delivery. Those women wished for a baby and I would guess that most wanted to be a mom, thus planned the pregnancy. So don’t sit on your holy book (written by human beings with an agenda, BTW) as a reason to say that no woman should ever terminate a pregnancy. Don’t like it, don’t have one, but don’t deny a woman control over HER body. It is no one elses business but the woman and the doctor she chooses for a safe, clean, LEGAL termination. I would hope that a woman makes that decision in the 1st 3 months, but again, it is NOT for anyone to tell her she can’t do it. In my experience no woman makes that decision lightly, without long, hard consideration. As for being rather joyful that Tiller is dead, some here feel that way, but just didn’t say it. They felt it was justice, since Tiller was, in their opinion, a “sinner” and oh yes, a murderer. The murderer is the man accused of having killed Tiller. He committed a crime. Tiller was within the law in his work.



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