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91 million radical Islamists shouldn’t be too hard to stop

posted by Susan Johnson

Oh boy! I wonder how many are saying they’re radical but don’t really mean it?

A new Gallup poll is being touted as a “challenge” to western misperceptions of Islam. The survey was done on three continents and took six years to complete, and as the French news agency AFP reports, we’ve all been a little alarmist over here: “About 93 percent of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims are moderates and only seven percent are politically radical, according to the poll, based on more than 50,000 interviews.”
Seven percent of 1.3 billion leaves us with . . . 91 million radical Islamists. And to think we were concerned! That piddling handful is nothing that can’t be taken care of with a little dialogue, a few billion in American aid, and some proper education. I’m feeling audaciously hopeful.
But, wait, what’s this? “The radicals are better educated, have better jobs, and are more hopeful with regard to the future than mainstream Muslims,” said John Esposito, who authored the book Who Speaks for Islam.

(via)



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meh

posted February 28, 2008 at 2:28 pm


let’s see – with 6.5 billion people on the planet, 1.3 billion being Muslim, that leaves 5.2 billion people who are not Muslim.
I wonder what percentage of those would consider themselves “politically radical,” and if that number is larger than the 91 million “radical” Muslims.
The ultimate question is: “What, exactly, do you propose to do about the 91 million radical Muslims and the X% of radical other religionists?” Kill em? Hug em until they like us? Pray for their salvation (which can’t happen, naturally, because if they were “elect,” they wouldn’t be Muslim or “other”)?
What to do about it?



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ds0490

posted February 28, 2008 at 3:29 pm


Meh, what folks like Michele really want is someone to commit genocide. Face it, the removal of 91 million people is small potatoes to someone who holds the worldview that billions will spend eternity in hell.
Over on Rod Dreher’s blog he has been beating the same drum…always playing the alarmist card but when pinned down as to what to do about it he is as clueless as Michele. Deep down they are wanting genocide, but they won’t admit it.



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Michele McGinty

posted February 28, 2008 at 3:42 pm


I don’t propose to do anything because there really isn’t anything to do. We have to wait until they take action against us to do anything, don’t we?
ds0490, your comment is intolerant and demonstrates that I am just a caricature to you. I am not. I found it to be pretty offensive so I’ve decided to turn the other cheek and not reply in kind.
All I did was note the scale of the problem not propose a solution.



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meh

posted February 28, 2008 at 5:39 pm


Michelle,
This exchange is something that I think would make a great article/post, because I think it illuminates an underlying fundamental dissonance between folks with your worldview and folks with ours.
91 million Muslim people out of 1.3 billion consider themselves politically radical – and this is framed as “a problem” that “the West” has to “deal with.”
Scare quotes around all of those phrases there are intentional for several reasons, not the least of which is that as long as the West’s worldview is seen as the “default” worldview, politically radical anythings are going to be veiwed as a problem. Here’s the thing about problems – they exist to be solved. What is the solution to this problem looming for the West? No one wants to take the next step and say it, but what you’re all leading up to, even if you’re not conscious of it, is that “they must be stopped.”
It’s like ds0490 is saying about the Dreher blog. He beats the “The Muslims are Coming! The Muslims are Coming!” meme into the ground, but then balks at the thought of someone taking this line of thinking to its logical conclusion. Of course, he also beats the “The Gays Are Ruining America” meme into the ground, and speaks about the West as if it would all be hunky and dory if The Gays weren’t around to ruin it.
It’s the same meme and made with the same unconscious cry for “a solution.”
If the argument is framed from a religious perspective that the West would be better off if radical Muslims didn’t exist, and if the West would be better off if the Gays didn’t exist, and if the West would be better off if the Communists didn’t exist, or the Socialists, or the Atheists, or the fill-in-the-blanks, you’ve got to know that this sets off a lot of internal alarms in people, because it only takes one person in a position of power to take it to the next step: “Maybe it would benefit civilization if this group wasn’t around anymore.”
Please don’t dismiss this without some examination. This country is built on genocide. And, as ds said, what’s a few million to someone who believes billions are predestined to burn for eternity? You have to know that to those of us who don’t subscribe to dominionist theism, that line of thought is terrifying – not because we’re scared of hell (which we don’t believe exists) but because we’re scared of people who would believe in something so depraved – especially when they essentially run the world.



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anonymous reincarnate

posted February 28, 2008 at 6:33 pm


“Meanwhile, radical Muslims gave political, not religious, reasons for condoning the attacks, the poll showed.”
it did note that they were politically radical, and not religiously radical. i think that’s certainly good news and that’s a very important distinction to be made.
the poll reflects what experts on iran have been saying for years. of course those rational people are drowned out with the fear-mongering warnings of the neoconservatives and senators singing “bomb bomb bomb, bomb bomb iran…”
it also explains the upsurge in terrorism after our preemptive invasion of a sovereign country, again which is exactly what experts on the region said would happen.
when will our leaders start listening to the people who understand different cultures? i’m hoping the answer to that question is 2009.



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ds0490

posted February 28, 2008 at 6:48 pm


Michele: “All I did was note the scale of the problem not propose a solution.”
Because you really do not have a solution other than genocide. Such is the nature of the Christianity that you and Rod espouse. Your self-righteous avoidance of engaging over this is not politeness, it is cowardice.



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ds0490

posted February 28, 2008 at 7:27 pm


meh: “Please don’t dismiss this without some examination. This country is built on genocide. And, as ds said, what’s a few million to someone who believes billions are predestined to burn for eternity?”
At least Ann Coulter, Michele’s fellow traveller in conservatism, has the courage to express the solution she truly advocates. She has been on record more than once suggesting that we need to bomb their capitals until they convert to Christianity.
Michele doesn’t go that far, however. She’s content to hold the coats of those who wish to stone, however.



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meh

posted February 28, 2008 at 7:29 pm


Be fair, ds0490 (hah! Look at me saying be fair). I think she’s sincere in this. I have to believe there are billions of theists on the planet that are essentially good people that can’t conceive of a reality that isn’t predicated upon the existence of a celestial bureaucracy. That such a worldview inherently and inequitably separates and stratifies us doesn’t come to most people’s mind, though I don’t think it’s done with malice.
It’s perfectly natural to be fearful of some “other” and “want someone to do something about it” when the universe is ordered like a government agency. People pray to their gods for victory for their side in the slaughter du jour because they believe that there’s a spiritual realm that is more important than the material in which they happen to be the good guys in some cosmic story they’re enacting. Every people is someone’s “chosen” people, so it’s never going to end.
I think the point is they don’t understand that the logical conclusion of all conflicts where resources are at stake is genocide and always has been genocide. Every holy text includes the stories of victories over enemies of the because of the intervention of one people’s “superior” deity, allowing the winners to “multiply.”
It continues unabated to this day: history books are litanies of genocides (called anything but). The patten is clear all throughout Western History (and probably the histories of the East and South, though I can’t speak to those). It starts with dehumanization, leads to oppression and subjugation, and finally ends with genocide. Winner take all.
At the core, I think it’s a sickness, and most of the world is infected.



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ds0490

posted February 28, 2008 at 8:00 pm


meh: “Be fair, ds0490 (hah! Look at me saying be fair). I think she’s sincere in this.”
Oh, she’s sincere all right. Why else would she fan the flames of genocide, or hope that someone else would light them so she could fan them if she were not sincere in her desire to see 91 million people no longer exist, sent to the hell where her God predestined them to go.
You see, meh, conservatives know that they do not need to be the ones to pull the lever that initiates the pogrom. They have others that hear their words, the Paul Hills and Eric Rudolphs of their movement who can, with enough preaching, be moved to carry out the violence that the shrill alarmists in the movement desire but dare not directly mention.
This leaves them plausible deniability, a curtain they hide behind after spreading their inflammatory words. They can say that they do not advocate violence, and never called for it.
They simply noticed the problem and called attention to it.
Just like Rev. Jim Wright and Minister Louis Farrakhan are doing. Of course, they are black and liberal, so they are wrong.
Right, Michele?



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ds0490

posted February 28, 2008 at 8:09 pm


Yep…it’s Jeremiah, not Jim. Mixing Wrights is not good.



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meh

posted February 28, 2008 at 8:48 pm


Oh, she’s sincere all right. Why else would she fan the flames of genocide, or hope that someone else would light them so she could fan them if she were not sincere in her desire to see 91 million people no longer exist, sent to the hell where her God predestined them to go.

That’s not really what I meant. While I think all western conservatives are fundamentally wrong, I also think that only a tiny few of them are actually evil. Just like every other group in the world.
Like anyone trapped in fiction, they all think they’re “the best.” From a vantage point outside of the fiction, however, it’s pretty clear they’re all the same.



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Michele McGinty

posted February 29, 2008 at 11:32 am


“Ann Coulter, Michele’s fellow traveller in conservatism” where on this blog did I ever give the impression that was true? In fact I came out against Ann Coulter on this blog. I’ve only linked to her once and that when she was at CPAC and that’s because she was making news.
“Michele doesn’t go that far, however. She’s content to hold the coats of those who wish to stone, however.”
So, when I turned my cheek you decided to hit it again, huh?



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 11:53 am


Folks like you, Rod Dreher, and Ann Coulter that go out of your way to raise alarms about “the problem” that the west “must deal with” in regards to radical Islam serve exactly the same purpose as the government radio did in the Rwandan genocide. You constantly point at what you see as a problem, insist that we “must do something” about it, and then skulk away when you are asked what should be done.
Turn the other cheek? Fine…I’ll be happy to back down on this if you will do one thing.
Give us a concrete suggest as to how you see the “problem” being “solved”? Beliefnet has placed you in a position where your opinions can attract attention beyond your community. Use that opportunity to do more than incite violence…which is the inevitable end of the kind of propaganda you are spreading.



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Michele McGinty

posted February 29, 2008 at 12:09 pm


If the jihadists hadn’t rammed a plane into the side of one of our buildings or blown a hole in side of one of our battleships, or bombed our embassies, I wouldn’t care what they believed. They declared war against us, they made us their enemy. I don’t think that it’s scary, strange, whatever to be concerned about the number of those who might one day attack us.
“And, as ds said, what’s a few million to someone who believes billions are predestined to burn for eternity”
See, this is where you guys just don’t get reformed theology or biblical Christianity at all or you wouldn’t make such a childish statement. There is a big difference between believing that those who do not put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend eternity paying for their sins and killing a bunch of people so they get there. If the Lord desires that any perish, why would I?
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance.
“those of us who don’t subscribe to dominionist theism”
What do you mean by this?



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Michele McGinty

posted February 29, 2008 at 12:13 pm


ds0490, what is there to do? What do you expect? How can we deal with people who are bent on our destruction. How the heck do you expect a blogger on beliefnet to know how to stop an enemy from wanting to attack us.



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 12:35 pm


(Reposted, with adjusted URLs to avoid Beliefnet ‘bot. Remove the extra spaces and add appropriate prefix to bring them up.)
Michele: “ds0490, what is there to do? What do you expect? How can we deal with people who are bent on our destruction. How the heck do you expect a blogger on beliefnet to know how to stop an enemy from wanting to attack us.”
Translation: I have no idea as to what is happening out there or what suggestions there might be as to how to change the situation, so I’ll just keep stoking the fires and stand back when some Eric Rudolph or Paul Hill decides to blow up a mosque or two here in the states. Then you will step back and say, “I never advocated violence!”
What is there to do? First, tone down the alarmism, Michele. Clearly it does absolutely nothing to solve the problem other than to inflame emotions and inspire the radical element within your own camp.
http://www.xanga.com /MyFreedomWings /641793142/mosque-burned-in-tennessee.html
I wonder if the scum that burned this mosque ever read any of your alarmist posts, Michele? I wonder if they ever read any of Rod’s alarmist diatribes?
We had no mosques burned in this country in the weeks after 9/11. In Britain, there were no mosques burned after the bombings there on 7/7.
Now we have mosques burning in this country. Why do you suppose that is, Michele?
We have conservatives celebrating shootings at mosques in our country, Michele, just like the Muslims who celebrated 9/11.
http://www.theconservativevoice.com /forum /read.html?id=5708
Is this what you, Rod, and Ann want? Do you view violence against Muslims as the solution?
Keep beating the drum, Michele…folks will start dancing to that beat soon enough.
about.beliefnet.com /boards /message_list.asp?discussionID=534584
A post on that list:
Aegle1
10/1/2006 1:11 AM 10 out of 73
BSB
So, what are we to do? Shall we just sit back and let them commit mayhem on us? How many times must we be attacked before you peaceniks realize there is a clear and present danger from Islam? Didn’t 9/11 teach you anything? They did it in ’93 with a van loaded with explosives in the basemsnt of one of the towers, on Clintons watch. It’s been going on for years. Wake up, man!!
Aeg
That post sounds like something you would say, Michele.



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 12:36 pm


Michele: “See, this is where you guys just don’t get reformed theology or biblical Christianity at all or you wouldn’t make such a childish statement. There is a big difference between believing that those who do not put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend eternity paying for their sins and killing a bunch of people so they get there. If the Lord desires that any perish, why would I?”
Which is why John Calvin burned Michael Servetus at the stake in Geneva, right?



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meh

posted February 29, 2008 at 1:09 pm


What do you mean by this?
I mean that both sides believe that because they worship the correct god, that god will give them dominion over their enemies.
That’s dominionist theism, and practically every civilized culture subscribes to one form of it or another.
I don’t buy into it.



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meh

posted February 29, 2008 at 1:14 pm


There is a big difference between believing that those who do not put their trust in the Lord Jesus Christ will spend eternity paying for their sins and killing a bunch of people so they get there.
I don’t see how you can say this when the history of every religion is chock-full of some sort of “-ite” smiting some other flavor of “-ite” because they think their god told them to do so.
It’s what happened to the first people here and everywhere else – if they can’t be converted, they need to be slaughtered – ask the aboriginal people of North and South America and Australia, the few that are left. I’d tell you to ask the aboriginal peoples of Europe, but I think they’re all gone now.
“Turn or Burn” has always been the way of the civilized world, and it continues today.
That you disavow such an idea is laudable, but certainly not in line with the history of your religion (or anyone else’s, for that matter.)



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 2:58 pm


Clearly another fellow conservative has found “the solution” to “the problem.”
http: //americanandproud.net /?p=378
“This shouldn’t surprise anyone, eventually the people of our nation are going to take matters into their own hands since the GOVERNMENT won’t handle it. I think this “attack” was idiotic (and very poorly planned) there will be many more if these hate filled Mosques don’t stop their America bashing. ”



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 6:26 pm


Yet another conservative offers up a “solution”, this one from 2004.
http://doctor-horsefeathers.com/archives2/000298.php
LETTER TO OUR ENEMIES
Horsefeathers received the following letter and has permission of its author to share it with our readers:
I’m an ordinary American. Wife (whom I love and respect), 2 kids (to whom I would give both of my kidneys), 2 cars (ten years old), big mortgage, and a job not always pleasurable.
I’ve worked hard all my adult life to provide for my family, to be useful, and not go out of my way to injure anyone. Like most Americans, I knew little about arab-muslim culture and believed that the developed nations were partly responsible for the poverty and authoritarian regimes that infest the middle east.
Things changed on 9/11/01 when you ruined the lives of at least 10,000 Americans.
These people instantly became my countrymen and you became my mortal enemy.
Ordinary Americans are arming themselves for war with you. I and many of my friends have closets full of handguns, rifles, shotguns and thousands of cartridges.
If we had enough ammunition and time, we would kill every last one of you.
We completely support our President and our armed forces. We only wish they would destroy you faster, but we are certain that they will.
We no longer listen to the insane words of Kerry, Harkin, Kennedy, Clark, and others whom we now see as ideologues who would sacrifice our country and our
lives on the alter of their vanity and desire for power.
We no longer listen to our secular mullahs, our media fools, preaching hatred of America and sapping our will with their lies and deceptions.
We watch your cowardly methods of killing by beheading. We are disgusted. But we are not afraid.
You turn your women and children into walking bombs. We are disgusted. But we are not afraid.
You shoot and rape children. You kill their mothers before their eyes. You burn, hang, and tear apart the bodies of your victims, and then play with body parts. We are disgusted. But we are not afraid.
Why should we fear you? What ARE you to be feared? You are cowards. Your bravado is a clown mask that hides the soul of a ghoul. You are not able even to
manufacture the knives you use to butcher your bound victims.
One day soon, our planes and missiles will begin turning your mosques, your madrasses, your hotels, your government offices, your hideouts, and your
neighborhoods into rubble.
And then our soldiers will enter your cities and begin the work of killing you, roaches, as you crawl from the debris.
As cowards, you will have your hands in the air and you will get on your knees begging for mercy. And we will instead give you justice. Your actions and your
words long ago placed you far from any considerations of mercy. You are not men.
And if you come to this country and harm a child, shoot a mother, hijack a bus, or bomb a mall, we will do what we did in 1775. Millions of us will form militias.
We will burn your mosques.
We will invade the offices of pro-arab-muslim organizations, destroy them, and drag their officers outside.
We will tell the chancellors of universities either to muzzle or remove anti American professors, whose hatred for their own country we have tolerated only
because we place a higher value on freedom of speech. But we will no longer tolerate treason. We will muzzle and remove them.
We will transport arab-muslims to our deserts, where they can pray to scorpions under the blazing sun.
You have f****d [original did not include stars] with the wrong people.
We will rid the world of your foul breath.
Your caliphate will be your grave.
Posted at 04:22 PM by Stephen



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 6:33 pm


Yet more commentary in response to alarmist rhetoric like that found here and in Rod’s blog. These responses to a blog from Sweden…not unlike what we see spouted in some forums here in the States.
http://fjordman.blogspot.com/2005/10/another-arson-attack-on-malm-mosque.html
At October 22, 2005 9:10 PM, Blogger The Eye of Oden said…
I can’t say that it bothers me to see a mosque burn. unless it is comitted by muslims to get insurance money.
Islam is the root of the problem, so burning mosques and korans does not bother me one bit. It is better than attacking muslims. Like I said before, with Sweden’s complacency and the government’s failure ot even acknowledge an immigrant problem, It’s no wonder swedes are taking matters into their own hands. They should burn all the mosques and korans in europe. Maybe then the muslims will realize that they can and will be targeted if they continue their disgusting displays in western lands.
———-
At October 23, 2005 2:26 AM, Blogger The Eye of Oden said…
Fjordman, I have read the koran. I have seen the lies and opression within its covers. I understand the threat.
It’s illegal to be a nazi and have nazi literature in almost every western country right? What differentiates islam?
To solve this problem is easy. First, outlaw the koran, destroy all mosques within a country, and outlaw islam as nazism is outlawed. Those failing to comply will be jailed or deported. Those muslims caught gang raping non muslim women should face the death penalty.
Make hate crime laws EQUAL. such as when a white is beaten up by non whites, make the punishment as severe as when whites gang up on a black.
Does this sound drastic? hell yeah. But islam has to be seen for what it is, and outlawed accordingly. The countless victims of gang rapes, violent assaults and murder do not deserve to die because of being politically correct.
To end this nightmare we have to FIGHT back. not talk back or appease back.
Look at the big f**k-up that happened when we allowed hitler to get too strong. 54 million dead. When the islam vs. the west conflict fully erupts, the death toll will be much higher, and the path we’re on shows it to be 100% inevitable.
So, do we get tough now, outlaw a barbaric religion and hurt a few feelings, or do we wait until we are FORCED into bloody battle for our very existence?
Our governments cannot be trusted to do the right thing. People’s complete apathy in their governments further drives them to take action and correct the problems themselves. we are already seeing this in action.



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meh

posted February 29, 2008 at 7:17 pm


I’m having a hard time believing that McGinty is cut from the same cloth, though I don’t think that’s your point, ds. You’re saying thta her framing of “problems” the way she does incites people like this, if I’m understanding you.
Let me just say that while I know folks like Coulter and Limbaugh and such appeal to nutjobs like the people you quote, I don’t think for a moment that Coulter and limbaugh and the rest of the repulsive lot – of which I do not, incidentally, consider McGinty a member. She takes a bit too much pleasure, for my taste, in watching her rhetroical enemies squirm, but I don’t think she’s the kind of person that does so out of malice aforethought, unlike the above-mentioned.
I think Coulter and the like are actively hoping they incite people like the stuff you quoted. I really do think McGinty is as repulsed by those kinds of posts as you are.
I’m not defending her, but I am saying cut her some slack – she’s wrong, but she’s not a ghoul.



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ds0490

posted February 29, 2008 at 8:18 pm


meh: “I’m not defending her, but I am saying cut her some slack – she’s wrong, but she’s not a ghoul.”
How else can she be framed. meh? She continually bangs the alarm about radical Islam, saying that we have to do something to stop this. Then, when cornered and asked what should be done she has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA, but continues to bang the alarm saying that something has to be done.
Those Christians in Tennessee that burned a mosque earlier this month did not live in a vacuum. As one of them said, “what was going on in there was against the Bible,” and therefore they had to act. Is that not a common message being spread by folks like Rod, Michele, Ann Coulter, and a host of other right-wing alarmists?
If voices hammer the message “Muslims = evil” and “Muslims = terrorist” enough, sooner or later there will be a response to that message…a violent response.
Michele and Rod are part and parcel of that group pushing out those messages. They offer nothing at all constructive that would move towards a solution, yet they continually offer shrill and extreme examples of Muslims behaving badly, and then leave the reader to extrapolate that bad behavior to the general Muslim population.
For example, the message that “3 in 4 American mosques preach jihadist hatred” (sayanythingblog.com/readers/entry/study_3_in_4_us_mosques_preach_anti_western_jihadist_hate/)
followed by the theme of the weakness of Democrats (or liberals, or leftists, or whatever label you wish to place there) in not dealing with the problem begs the question: what should be done? These agitators need not offer a solution, they only need to fan the flames and soon enough someone will offer a solution.
http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/arabic_islamic_architecture/81486
blog.americancongressfortruth.com/2007/09/26/message-to-pc-police/
Michele is part of this. She has taken the position that Obama should renounce the views of Minister Farrakhan. I wonder…will she renounce the views of those men who burned the mosque in Tennessee earlier this month, or will she try to justify it, and then return to beating the alarm?



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meh

posted March 1, 2008 at 12:21 am


I was never really one in favor of denouncing other people’s actions. I fact, I found it annoying as hell the number of times I saw some right-wing blogger make a case for all Muslims being okay with terrorism, if not all are actively engaged (I don’t know anyone who has ever tried to substantively argue that) by asking (and loudly) why the mainstream Muslims weren’t making a public statement of “denunciation” every time someone who happened to be the same religion strapped on some explosives and paid a visit to a market.
Here’s the thing – why on earth do mainstream Muslims owe the West any concession fo any point? I think it’s sick that the West sems to require such action. Blowing people up is horrible and evil. People of good conscience already know this (I’ll leave my snide thoughts re: the neocons in the background for a moment), and that includes Muslims. I don’t need to see people walking around in full mea culpa mode because some co-religionists did something awful.
It’s like requiring all Catholic people to apologize for the priestly sex abuse. I don’t need Ma and Pa Catholic to go on Larry King and say: “Child molestation is wrong, an I denounce it” to believe that they’re just good folks. Why Western Judeo Christians require the same kind of loyalty oath from the East is a question to ponder.
She continually bangs the alarm about radical Islam, saying that we have to do something to stop this. Then, when cornered and asked what should be done she has ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA, but continues to bang the alarm saying that something has to be done.

I think it’s other people who ask folks like McGinty and Dreher “what do you want to do about it,” while they’re more likely to just poit at a factoid like “Europe has lots of Muslim immigrants” and draw a correlation to the loss of their Christian dominion there (though it was already largely “lost to secularism” since just post WWII). I wil admit that Dreher does go one step further and say that Muslim expansionism is a danger. I think McGinty stops just shy of that and stays in the “Some Muslims are really crazy people, and there’s a lot of them. I’m worried” mode.
An overall picture of “all danger all the time” does come across here when the conservablogs are all harping about it, but I don’t think there’s actual genocidal malice there. Even though the logical conclusion of such conversations is genocide, I don’t think anyone’s actively calling for it. I don’t even think they’re aware that they’re doing it. When it’s pointed out time and again, they all say that’s not their intent and people are jumping to conclusions – That it’s always the same conclusion isn’t setting off any alarms for them, which is admittedly frustrating.
Do you get what I mean?



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ds0490

posted March 1, 2008 at 7:19 am


meh: “An overall picture of “all danger all the time” does come across here when the conservablogs are all harping about it, but I don’t think there’s actual genocidal malice there.”
Then let’s hold them to the standard they hold moderate Muslims to. Every time there is an act of violence against a mosque or some Muslims here in the states, let’s see if they will denounce the perpetrators. If they expect moderate Muslim leaders to denounce each and every bad actor who claims their faith, then they should be willing to do likewise for the bad actors in their faith.
Of course, this will never happen. Case in point…the mosque that burned in Tennessee. IF they ever get around to commenting on it, Michele or Rod will say that the perpetrators “weren’t real Christians” and then go off about how Christian Identity is a fringe movement. Fine, but when moderate Muslims point out that the radical Wahabis are fringe elements, the conservatives trot out passages from the Quran, taken out of context, and insist that Islam teaches violence.
In short, they wish to hold moderate Muslims accountable for the fringe elements in their religion, but then refuse to be held accountable for the fringe elements in their own Christian religion.



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Michele McGinty

posted March 1, 2008 at 11:04 am


“I mean that both sides believe that because they worship the correct god, that god will give them dominion over their enemies.
That’s dominionist theism, and practically every civilized culture subscribes to one form of it or another.”
Here’s my response:
2 Cor. 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we are not waging war according to the flesh. 4 For the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh but have divine power to destroy strongholds. 5 We destroy arguments and every lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ
Sorry, there are enemies we (as Americans) have in warfare, radical jihadists — al Qaeda — have declared war on us, these enemies are enemies of America not Christians. There is nothing in Scripture that says that we (as Christians) will take dominion over them. This nation is not a Christian nation, there is no such thing, so it’s enemies aren’t God’s enemies and there is no promise in the Bible at all that promises us victory over them. As I’ve said, this is not a crusade.
As the above passage notes, as a Christian, my enemies aren’t the radical jihadists, al Qaeda, Muslims or anyone else. My war, as a Christian, is spiritual war that Christ has already won on the cross. He is the one who has dominion:
Psalm 110:1 A Psalm of David. The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at my right hand, until I make your enemies your footstool.”
So, I’m not looking to prevail against the jihadists because I’m a Christian or an American but because I want to be able to live in freedom and not worry about being blown up in a plane or in a crowd.
BTW, do either of you believe that we are at war? Do you believe that al-Qaeda is just in Afghanistan and we don’t have an enemy here or in Europe who is planing to attack us?
Also, I will be giving a fuller response to your various comments tonight or tomorrow. I’m taking my daughter to a discussion about “Pride and Prejudice” and it will take up my whole day.



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meh

posted March 1, 2008 at 12:25 pm


Also, I will be giving a fuller response to your various comments tonight or tomorrow. I’m taking my daughter to a discussion about “Pride and Prejudice” and it will take up my whole day.
First, have a good time – that sounds like it’ll be a great day :)
Second, thanks, and I look forward to reading it!



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ds0490

posted March 1, 2008 at 1:38 pm


Michele: “BTW, do either of you believe that we are at war? Do you believe that al-Qaeda is just in Afghanistan and we don’t have an enemy here or in Europe who is planing to attack us?”
Let’s see…we have no draft, neither do we have a war tax. We have no call for “national sacrifice” and we do not have any efforts to restrain “war profiteering.”
While our government says we are at war, we are continuing to give short shrift to those who fight that war. Meanwhile we continue to give tax cuts to corporations and pile up ever larger amounts of debt.
No, Michele, I do not believe we are at war as a nation. War isn’t cheap. War doesn’t provide tax breaks and condone profiteering. If we were at war our President would not be calling for an extension of tax breaks, he would instead be calling for our nation to sacrifice.
And we would be pushing our main thrust at the real enemy, Osama bin Laden, instead of trying to protect the oil fields of Iraq.
So I would have to say, Michele, that based on the actions of our President and the leaders of our nation, we are not really at war. We have enemies who have attacked us, and who will likely attack us again, but we are not at war. We haven’t been at war since 1945.



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meh

posted March 1, 2008 at 6:44 pm


I believe we are witnessing the start of a very long and very expensive resource grab, because we’re daily seeing the evidence of the existence of our limits. Limits are something our economy is not designed to exist with – growth is everything, except there’s little room left into which we expand. Ubiquities are no longer ubiquitous, and industry has to get them somewhere. It’s all very precarious.
That’s what I think the government is up to, and I think it’s being sold to the people as a war to keep us from expending energy trying to find a new way to live instead of expending the remainders of our blood and treasure attempting to keep this one going.
Eisenhower warned the nation. The nation didn’t listen.



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Michele McGinty

posted March 1, 2008 at 9:54 pm


Let me rephrase the question so that you can’t slip out of it so easily. Do you believe that al-Qaeda declared war on us and is looking to hit us anyway that they can?



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meh

posted March 2, 2008 at 12:21 am


I think this war is a sham and designed to enable us to take over parts of the world that don’t belong to us, and I think that blaming our actions on a “war against al-Qaeda” is a covenient excuse to do whatever we want to other sovereign peoples. I (emphatically) do not believe al-Qaeda “declared war” on us.
I don’t believe al-Qaeda *can* declare war on us. The only thing al-Qaeda can do is what every criminal organization does – commit crimes. Crimes need police, not war. War results in tens of thousands of innocent deaths (hundreds of thousands if the independant agencies tracking this debacle are correct). “Shock and Awe” tactics don’t work because they don’t hit the criminals – we punish the innocent for daring to have the bad fortune to be born in the same place where criminals live. Our presence has inspired hundred, if not thousands, of formerly peaceful people into taking up arms against us. We create “al-Qaeda” so that we can justify the expense of warring with them. And OH the expense! Administration cronies converting our treasure into profit one malfeasance at a time.
It’s the American way.
I also oppose the concept that we can “war” with these criminals for the same reason I don’t support the bombing of Los Angeles to stop the crips or the bloods. All sorts of rationalizations can be made to support blowing whole regions to hell in the hopes of hitting a few criminals, but the concept of “collateral damage,” in my opinion, ranks right up there with “final solutions” for committing evil and calling it good.
That’s my answer. I will ask that you don’t latch on to some poorly worded phrase and dismiss me outright. I’m not a writer. If something doesn’t jibe, please point it out and I’ll try to address it, but please…be gentle. Your virtual tongue is sharp, and this is a subject I prefer not to get into ‘pissing matches’ about.
Thanks for asking, and for reading.



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meh

posted March 2, 2008 at 12:26 am


Of course, I suspect thatthe spectre of 9/11 will rear its ugly head.
I have question, that until it gets answered, will prevent me from believing the administration’s story about “al-Qaeda” performing that horrible act:
How did a passport survive a fireball that was hot enough to bring down a steel-girded building?



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Michele McGinty

posted March 3, 2008 at 10:03 am


Actually I was aiming that more at ds0490 than you. It does help to know where you are coming from because I can see why you wouldn’t be interested in fighting this war in Afghanistan and Iraq if you believe that it’s a sham. And I can see now why you object to my pointing out the 91 million Muslims who align themselves with radical jihad.
But on the flip side if you actually believed (as I do) that al-Qaeda has declared war on us (as bin Laden himself said that he did in the 90’s), then you would want your government to fight and to overcome the enemy before he hits you again. When a Navy ship, the Pentagon, an embassy and our military overseas are targeted, that’s an act of war and if any country knowingly allows those who have targeted us to remain free and to assist them, then that’s an act of war as well.
Identifying that we have so many Muslims who align themselves with the jihadists is disheartening since the potential for escalation of terrorist activities is there. That is what I was noting. I wasn’t suggesting we round them up and integrate them, in fact my hope was just the opposite, that they were only siding with the jihadists because that’s the cool thing to do and that when the jihadists are not able to accomplish their goals then these people will lose respect for them (since it’s an honor based society).
BTW, ds0490 if I wasn’t feeling so overwhelmed by the number, then that might have been a better answer for how we fight this enemy. We don’t allow them to reach their objective — a caliphate that extends throughout Europe and the Middle East and to impose sharia law on the rest of the world. Unfortunately they are in this for the long haul, we are not. They understand that we are at war, we do not.
Fighting them in whatever theater they will engage us in (Iraq and Afghanistan) is the only way we have a shot at winning this war.



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Michele McGinty

posted March 3, 2008 at 10:17 am


As to “genocidal malice,” I think the charge is ridiculous and I try to make the distinction by pointing to radical jihadists instead of Muslims, just as Bush has done. The fact that we have relatively few mosque burnings in America is a testament to the ability of Americans to separate the radical elements from those who have not declared war on us.
As I stated above, we are at war whether you guys get that or not. I’m going to post about this war because I believe it’s important and you can feel free to dispute what I say but you won’t stop me from saying it just by charging we with “genocidal malice.”
BTW, responding that Calvin burned a heretic is a non sequitur and has nothing to do with the passage I quoted.



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