Jesus Needs New PR

Jesus Needs New PR


Mark Driscoll (@pastormark) talks frankly about his love of men (in cages)

This is awesome. A little dated (3 months…) but still, awesome.

Thank you Mark. Love you. Meet me in a cage next week? Just make sure you leave your balls at home, man. But you can bring your bat.

Cool?

Thoughts?

***

Found at Burnside Writers Collective! Which is a fantastic blog that you should read!

Thanks Jordan.



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Courtney F

posted July 28, 2010 at 11:55 am


as a woman, i’m so lost.



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James

posted July 28, 2010 at 11:55 am


He can actually f*ck off if he wants to call men who don’t wanna take part or encourage that kind of activity fat and lazy. God made us all individuals and I’m not in the slightest bit interested in anything like that due to that.



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Marci Glass

posted July 28, 2010 at 11:57 am


This is horrifying. Why is he popular?
How does what he says relate, in any way, to anything that Jesus ever said?



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James

posted July 28, 2010 at 11:57 am


Sorry I know that was a bit of an outburst. I tend not to get angry especially about somewhat trial things but it’s probably down to the mood I’m in today and just general dislike for Driscoll that prompted it in me. Even when I do have these outburst I normally leave the screen before I get round to posting it just to stop myself.



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Wes Ellis

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:07 pm


This is actually a good example of something tragic that has taken place in our society. We’ve become ideological about “what men are supposed to do” and this false sense of masculinity has excluded folks who, for example, actually like to finger paint about their feelings into subcultures and identity confusion. Indeed, the sort of hierarchical struggle that Driscoll describes as being so essential to what it means to be a man has corroded our sense of shared identity and is a product of rigid individualism.



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    Wes Ellis

    posted July 28, 2010 at 12:20 pm


    P.S.
    I wrestled for 7 years, played American football for 4 years and Rugby for 4 years. Fat and Lazy?



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steveT

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:09 pm


actually….i’m curious, mpt…..what do YOU think? would you jump in the cage with that man? ~steveT



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    Matthew Paul Turner

    posted July 28, 2010 at 12:13 pm


    Heck no. His ego alone could kick my ass.

    And he looks like woodchuck.



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      Roscoe

      posted July 28, 2010 at 6:20 pm


      ^ Bazinga!



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Chad

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:09 pm


That’s why Jesus had weekly throwdowns. Blessed are the strong, for they will kick ass.



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@bitterbare

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:11 pm


This is ridiculous. I’m fat and lazy because I don’t want to throw down with people all the time? I should encourage my male children to act, not with self-control/Fruit of the Spirit, but with violence when confronted with idiots like him? Violence that is professionally sanctioned is now somehow appropriate and not still violence?

There are so many holes in this logic that it’s not even funny. And seeing as how he didn’t support it with anything other than his “manly feelings” and a non-contextually recitation of gender roles, it wasn’t even close to being the appropriate thing to say as a pastor.

I’m proud of the fact that throughout my life when people piss me off, I don’t feel the need to show I’m “better” than them by resorting to a physical altercation that doesn’t have anything to do with actually being better at whatever it was that caused the disagreement in the first place.

What a tool.



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Nate

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:16 pm


If I’m hearing him right, apparently what men do is get almost completely naked and sweaty together while participating in some sort of BDSM for the pleasure of the conquest of another.

I can see Jesus in spandex now.



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mandie

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:19 pm


i do not like war.

i do not like fighting.

i do not like guns.

i like warm and fluffy things.

no matter how hard i try to get my boys to love and nurture in their pretend play, they want to blow stuff up and fight…i can see where he is coming from…but it’s not as if his opinion is the Gospel, anyway.



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jan owen

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:26 pm


I thought it was bizarre. I also disagree that all women are one way and all men are one way. We all have different personalities and experiences in life that make us individuals. Perhaps what I most objected to was his putting genders in boxes. I know women that are aggressive and men that are not competitive. And what does any of that have to do with being a servant leader as Jesus modeled for us. I don’t see that in scripture anywhere.

And if you have to “prove” your manhood in a cage fight, that’s a sorry definition of manhood.

Now if he wants to watch cage fighting for fun like I enjoy football, then I could care less. But please don’t make something spiritual out of it.



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Bob Chapman

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:31 pm


I know I am not the only person waiting for the fall of Pastor Driscoll. It is a shame, but there is nothing anyone can do now but watch (think David and Bathsheba)m

There is some history in the Seattle area Pastor Driscoll should learn and take to heart. Pastor Moorehead and Overlake Christian Church.

Yes, Moorehead is his real name. Too many of us have committed at least one sin making a “single” entendre with that. (There really was only one meaning. Nothing “double” about it.)



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ed cyzewski

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:34 pm


The Burnside post was very, very interesting–and hilarious. Thanks for the link. I particularly enjoyed this section:

“While the world of Mixed Martial Arts might seem solely the realm of masculine, manly men rolling around half-naked in what only seems like a modified S&M dungeon, but you might be surprised to learn the link between homoeroticism and fighting is well-documented. Essentially, obsession with MMA fighters is the 21st century equivalent of pointing to your love of the volleyball scene in Top Gun as evidence of your masculinity.”



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Jesse Medina

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:35 pm


So has he participated in a cage fight or when he describes the “fat and lazy” is he describing himself?



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Matt

posted July 28, 2010 at 12:43 pm


Another example of a church leader who only sees life through his very limited perspective. I’m not effeminate, fat or lazy (in fact, I’m in great shape) but I sing and do theater for a living.

Hmmm…



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    run_sleep_art

    posted July 28, 2010 at 1:41 pm


    Mark Driscoll was the high school jock, that comes across very well in a lot of his sermons on dating, which to be honest, rubbed me the wrong way, but that is because they had an element of truth in them. He was like ‘just go to a girl and ask her out’…easy for someone without limited self-confidence who meet their wife when they were 15 (just a random number) and the high school quarter back.

    I disagree with the generality of what he is saying in this video. But if I’m out in town with girl friends, or someone of romantic interest, and a guy starts being a jerk to myself or my friends/date, then I’d be more then ready to rumble.

    I think the point you can extract from this is that there are a lot of churches that condemn UFC because it is ‘so’ violent. Mark is saying that guys shouldn’t shy away from violence, that they should have the kahunas to stand up for their friends/wife/mates, and be ready to throw a few punches. Guys should be doing things that push them, that challenge them, that could potentially kill them.

    I’m definitely not a UFC kind of guy, but I do a little boxing training, I also ride a bike down insane hills and I’m training to do mountain running and cross-country duathlons. I’m getting outside my comfort zone…what are you doing?



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      Matt

      posted July 28, 2010 at 2:42 pm


      I work my butt off at the gym 6 days a week. But I don’t think doing “manly” things make you a man. Your character determines what kind of man you are.

      Sure, I’ll fight someone if I have too, but I think it’s ignorant to say that guys are going to act that way because they’re guys. Self control is part of being a Christian and to blame it on being male is basically saying it’s God’s fault you can’t control yourself.

      Driscoll’s approach to masculinity is very American. I have been in multiple countries all over the world and guys are more open with their emotions while still being considered very manly. Our idea of what makes a man effeminate is from a narrow American mindset.



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        Matthew Paul Turner

        posted July 28, 2010 at 2:48 pm


        And if you want get technical, I think one’s penis makes somebody a man. And one’s vagina makes somebody a woman. To find out a baby’s sex we don’t wait to see if they wrestle or sew, and we don’t wait for them to develop character, an ultrasound tech looks between their legs.



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          Joshua

          posted August 8, 2010 at 7:51 pm


          Absolutely true. I think everyone who is tired of Driscoll’s crap should read “To Own a Dragon,” by Donald Miller.



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      Lex

      posted July 30, 2010 at 4:36 am


      What he’s saying is that “boys will be boys,” and that we are created to be violent jerks, so we should embrace that and not pretend to have feelings. He never said anything about standing up for other people, he’s talking about proving “who’s the dude” by being able to beat people up.

      “I wrote a hit play and directed it, what did you ever do!?”



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cap'n

posted July 28, 2010 at 1:38 pm


Driscoll is ignorant.

In the good ol’ days, people were sexist enough to think that a MAN was the ultimate expert on everything. Men wrote flower arranging textbooks, hosted educational TV shows telling women how to clean house, and (of course) designed bras that lift and separate!



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Miriam

posted July 28, 2010 at 1:45 pm


*raises hand*

I’d just like to point out that if he defines “the worst public high school” as a place where guys are taught to fingerpaint and share feelings, he hasn’t been within a mile of any high school I’ve ever seen or heard of.

In the worst public high schools you can walk through a metal detector every single day and still run the risk of getting shot, stabbed, robbed or pressured into a gang.

But hey! Lots of aggressive males around, so that’s a plus.



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Joan of Quark

posted July 28, 2010 at 1:47 pm


Isn’t that unshaven, ill-dressed slob the same bloke who is notorious for telling wives they should make sure they didn’t “let themselves go”, along with giving them very prescriptive instructions for how to conduct their sex lives (think along the lines of Pastor Moorehead mentioned passim!)?



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Ryan Rushing

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:00 pm


I think the urge to fight and kick each other’s ass is not who God created us to be, but rather the sin nature that is pushing us to act animalistic and regard other humans as objects.

If we follow Mark’s line of thinking it’s okay to hit anyone – man, woman, child – “because it’s just what men do.”

Jesus didn’t fight anyone with his fists, therefore it’s not okay for us to do it.



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Matt Kelley

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:06 pm


I guess I’m less of a man because I don’t really want to get in a cage and rip another dude to shreds. Of course, that’s what Jesus did when people came for him to do violence to him. Oh, wait, no he didn’t…



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Greg

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:14 pm


Sad that this became a crucify Mark Driscoll post…people should really grow up.

His last statement was a bad one, but it was an ignorant statement not a definitive biblical decree of “your are a fat lazy piece of crap if you do not participate in and love MMA…Pansies!!!”

I am sure none of you have ever done something so human, and I am sure everything that comes out of your mouths are edifying for the church and all about Jesus.

Wishing for his fall is so Pharisee of you…if you truly had the kingdoms best interest at heart and were concerned about this guy who leads a lot of people, you would pray for him, not wish for his demise. Same with our President and any others with great influence. Pretty disappointing show of self righteousness here in my opinion.

How He loves,
Greg



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    Matthew Paul Turner

    posted July 28, 2010 at 2:41 pm


    Greg,

    Please. Nobody here wants to “crucify” Mark Driscoll. He’s like Calvinism’s version of Glenn Beck. The stuff he spews might fire people up some, but it doesn’t cause us to lose sleep. And I think most people’s reactions aren’t from THIS one quote, it’s the build up from the multitude of stupid Mark quotes we hear all the time.

    And question: With your final paragraph–you know, the one where you call people “Pharisees” and “self righteous”–did you mean to write that with such a self righteous and Pharisee-ish tone? I see your point, but you’re not defending the “gospel” or “Jesus” or something sacred… you’re defending Mark Driscoll. Mark can take it. He’s a big boi.



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      Bob Chapman

      posted September 3, 2010 at 9:21 am


      Big boi? I just noticed that one.

      MPT shoots. He scores. But only in the sports meaning of the word.



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    Matt

    posted July 28, 2010 at 3:40 pm


    I don’t think the point is to crucify Mark Driscoll. God has used him for many things. I think MPT’s point is “here’s an example of what not to do when talking about Jesus”. It’s a learning experience.

    Besides, the website is called: Jesus Needs New PR.



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Lex

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:21 pm


Yuck.



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shellie (baylormum)

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:31 pm


So, if you pound on your chest in this cage, you are the all-mighty?? I thought that job was already taken….

Oh, and I’m a woman. Does that mean fat & lazy is good? I certainly hope so!!



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Sean R Reid

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:31 pm


Honestly, outside of the childish “fat and lazy” comment I don’t see why people are up in arms over this (although, there is some irony to the strong language being used AGAINST fighting).

If you don’t like MMA, boxing, martial arts, etc… that’s fine. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and tastes differ. To deny that a side effect of testosterone is aggression is simply silly. You can’t deny biology simply because it’s results are something you don’t enjoy. At some level ALL competitive sports have a degree of aggression. There’s no reason to judge those participants in sports where the aggression is more obvious.

I would argue that football is no less violent or more civil. Yet I seriously doubt there would be an uproar about “violence” if Driscoll was talking about football, soccer or rugby.

I’m a fan of MMA and for the most part I agree with Driscoll’s opinion of the sport. I have a lot of respect for the fighters and the discipline it takes to prepare for a bout. I’ve trained as a boxer and found it to be the best exercise of my life.

Yet in my personal life I’m a very conflict averse person. I was a bouncer for a few years and NEVER got into a physical altercation. And believe me, at 5’9″ I’m hardly an ominous presence. Additionally, I grew up studying dance (yes, even ballet) and was a cheerleader in college. So I’m not a sexist meat-head “typical jock” either. However, if my wife, children, pets, life, etc… were in danger I would not think twice about a physical altercation. Nor do I think there is anything wrong with acknowledging that there is something in men that inclines us to gladiatorial combat. Even when it’s masquerading as mainstream “sport.”



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Jay

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:40 pm


Ah. Mark Driscoll is such an easy target. Has anybody here actually read the Old Testament? Are people like Joshua and David men we should not admire because they were warriors?

There’s nothing that he says here that is so terrible. Perhaps his “fat and lazy” comment was over the top, but all he is talking about here is the way men (most men) anyway are wired and that it isn’t a bad thing for them to want to do these things. And this is coming from a person that is a huge baseball fan and somebody that has absolutely zero interest in watching MMA and UFC.

My Dad grew up in an era playing cops and robbers and cowboys and Indians. Nowadays we attempt to steer our sons away from such activities because they shouldn’t be exposed to violence. Nonsense. My son and his friends have their air-soft guns and they have their battles and it’s nothing more than an adventurous game. Their competitive spirit plays a part in that and they enjoy it.

I really don’t see what the big deal is.



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    Sean R Reid

    posted July 28, 2010 at 2:50 pm


    Nothing that Driscoll said is any different than what you read in “Wild At Heart.” I think some people just like to hate on Driscoll because of his personality. I’m willing to bet the same folks wouldn’t think twice if John Eldredge were praising MMA or any form of “combat” sport.

    For the record, I enjoy both the Ransomed Heart and the Mars Hill approach and don’t completely agree or disagree with either. I take the good and leave the bad from both.



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      Matthew Paul Turner

      posted July 28, 2010 at 2:52 pm


      Not sure about other people, but I disliked Wild at Heart.



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        Sean R Reid

        posted July 28, 2010 at 3:44 pm


        Totally have to disagree with you there. I read it and it made a HUGE impact on my life. It touched on many things that I needed to hear and presented Christianity to me (I was a recently converted atheist at the time) in a way to which I could really relate.

        Obviously, different strokes/different folks and all that…but I found it amazing.



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        Jay

        posted July 28, 2010 at 5:17 pm


        It may surprise you to know, but I didn’t like ‘Wild At Heart’ either.



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          Matthew Paul Turner

          posted July 28, 2010 at 5:27 pm


          It actually doesn’t surprise me. While we disagree on a lot of theological stuff, my guess is that we’d probably get along quite well in person. You’re passionate about what you believe. And I always admire that, even when I disagree with the point of view. :)



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    Matthew Paul Turner

    posted July 28, 2010 at 2:55 pm


    “I really don’t see what the big deal is,” writes the commenter.



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Daniel

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:53 pm


To quote my favorite-female-I’ve-never-met-but-sorta-stalk-on-the-intertubes, “Mark Driscoll is a douche-canoe.”

Also, um @pastormark, have you looked in the mirror lately? Hello fat…



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    run_sleep_art

    posted July 28, 2010 at 4:10 pm


    Lol – he has broad shoulders, he isn’t fat, he actually works out quite a bit. I’m the same build as him, broad shouldered and barrel chested.



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      Daniel

      posted July 28, 2010 at 6:22 pm


      Yea, I know. The dude is just so arrogant, I just feel the need to bring him down a bit.



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Kyle Reed

posted July 28, 2010 at 2:58 pm


Honestly and maybe I am way off on this (so please provide me some grace) but this attitude seems to say that if you are a male you have to be like this. If you do not want to fight people well then you have a problem.

I had a friends whose brother was gay. I remember talking to him about high school and he told me one of the reasons he figured that he was gay was because he didn’t like sports. Now like I said above, this might be way off and so unbrella of grace, but it seems that we paint men in this mold that you have to love ultimate fighting, beer, and sleeping with women. If you do not do that well you not a man.

Same with women, there has been the huge rebellion against women who are stay at home moms because they are placed in a mold. People have come out and said that women can work and can start businesses and anything a guy can. And I agree with that, but once people want to argue that women can only fit into one category.

It gets pretty dangerous trying to mold a whole gender after yourself and what you like.



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BrianD

posted July 28, 2010 at 3:35 pm


Yet another example where you have to separate the meat from the bones when it comes to someone’s teaching.

I used to almost worship the guy…now, I see his feet of clay and some of the things he says that probably will be law at Mars Hill Church and ‘whatever’ to the rest of the body of Christ.



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Sean R Reid

posted July 28, 2010 at 3:48 pm


I’m just wondering why some of the comments seem to hate men celebrating things that are unique to men?

That’s not to say there aren’t women who may love “combat” sports and be excellent athletes in their own right (ie. I’m pretty sure my wife would make one hell of a gladiator).

It’s also not to say that some sports are less “manly” (again, I’m a former ballet dancing cheerleader).

But, by and large, most of the larger, more popular, sports are dominated by men, both in participants and audience. Why is celebrating manhood a bad thing?



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    Matthew Paul Turner

    posted July 28, 2010 at 3:54 pm


    Hmm. I don’t think anybody is saying that celebrating “manhood” is a bad thing. But Mark suggests that it’s this ONE THING that he does and if you don’t do it or enjoy it or marvel at his ability to do it and enjoy it, you’re not a real man. Mark doesn’t define manhood. He might define “A Napoleon Complex,” but definitely not manhood.



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      Sean R Reid

      posted July 28, 2010 at 4:12 pm


      I don’t see where he says that. He states clearly that men are inclined toward aggression and the world of MMA provides a safe, and arguably healthy, outlet for that aggression. I agree with that statement. It’s much healthier for me to take out aggression on a heavy bag in my gym or in in the ring than it is for me to bottle it up or risk harming someone around me.

      I also agree that, in general, men are a more likely to have aggressive tendencies. Centuries of historical, sociological, scientific and psychological data support that statement. That’s not to say there aren’t exceptions but it’s true in general. It’s not denigrating to non-aggressive men. It’s just a statistical truth.

      The “fat, lazy men” comment might have gone too far. But, in context of his statement, I think he was being critical of those who criticize the sport for being “violent.” It’s not broad brush that paints all non-MMA participants. It’s a specific statement directed at a specific subset of people. It would be no different than me saying something like “Gators wear jean shorts” (I’m a UGA alum).

      At worst he’s guilty of being a fanboy.



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        Matthew Paul Turner

        posted July 28, 2010 at 5:25 pm


        You lost me with this comment, man, let’s just agree to disagree.



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run_sleep_art

posted July 28, 2010 at 5:49 pm


LOL – Loved this part of the blog you linked to MPT. So true too.

My favorite responder, though, was Natalie.

What have you noticed that’s particular about Mars Hill men?

I’ve never hung out with a group of guys who had the intention of just getting to know you. It’s so refreshing. I can be myself. Some of the guys, when you go to a party, all their focus is on is drinking. They don’t even talk to you or care unless you’re gonna end up with them later. … You’re objectified by other guys, and then you come to church and you’re actually a person, you’re a friend, or you’re someone interesting. It’s not just to date and have some fling. It’s great and so refreshing.

Natalie is 21 and single. Here is a picture of Natalie from the blog post. Now, I’ve been a churchgoing male all my life, and most of the time, I was single. I’ve also known many, many single churchgoing men. I consider them to be some of my best friends. All things considered, there are two things I can guarantee:

1) None of those churchgoing men are talking to Natalie “just to get to know” her. Every single one absolutely cares if Natalie is going to end up with him later (if not in the immediate future, then long-term). Every single one is hoping to date (or court, or whatever), or at least have a fling. And if I’m honest, I’d guess most are perfectly fine kicking things off with the fling and seeing where it goes from there. All of what I have said is irrefutable fact, with the following caveat:

2) If they are talking to Natalie and not interested in dating/courting/flinging with her, they are most likely not attracted to women.



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Jesse

posted July 28, 2010 at 8:22 pm


I don’t understand what mixed martial arts has to do with the spiritual life. At all. But then, I don’t understand what a lot of the Rev. Driscoll’s sound bytes have to do with anything, or why his new book appears to have the same cover art as Metallica’s “Black Album.” But then, I’m a little behind the times and haven’t quite caught up to being the hip new kind of Christian that we have now.

For the record, I hate MMA and UFC because they’ve effectively killed boxing, which I loved. And I’d take Iron Mike Tyson in his prime against any of those MMA cats. Hands down.



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    Jesse

    posted July 28, 2010 at 8:28 pm


    Also for the record – my father (who has been a pastor some decades longer than the Rev. Driscoll, but doesn’t have as big an audience) once preached a sermon on the “pornography of violence.” I wish I had a transcript.



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      Matthew Paul Turner

      posted July 28, 2010 at 8:29 pm


      What a great title, Jesse!



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    Jeremy

    posted July 28, 2010 at 8:47 pm


    Iron Mike would get taken down and pounded out by Randy Couture in his prime. :-)



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    Jeremy

    posted July 28, 2010 at 8:52 pm


    Also, on a more serious note, to proclaim a love of boxing and then slyly suggest that MMA is violence is more than a little hypocritical.

    Especially considering that mma is a thousand times more safe. I’ll take Royce Gracie’s quality of life over Muhammad Ali’s every time.



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      Jesse

      posted July 28, 2010 at 9:36 pm


      It was my dad who preached the sermon, not me. He is not a fight fan and never was. I haven’t watched a fight since Lennox Lewis retired anyway, so I guess by now I can preach if I want to ;)

      I also think that to give your enjoyment of some sport a spiritual dimension is just laughable. So you dig the fights. OK. Some people dig golf. I’ve heard that in other countries, they’re into soccer. I don’t get why it matters, spiritually.

      And I can’t argue boxing vs MMA. That cause is lost, and honestly boxing largely killed itself. $60 to watch Floyd Mayweather on TV? Right.



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        Ken

        posted August 1, 2010 at 8:15 pm


        “I’ve heard that in other countries, they’re into soccer.” Just when I was about to move on to something else, because all this silly name calling and people getting their panties in a bunch seems ridiculous, I came to your comment. Thank you for posting something that was actually worth reading…that was too funny!



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    @nicolewick

    posted July 28, 2010 at 10:54 pm


    I never would have made the connection to the “Black Album” but you’re totally right! That’s funny. And you’re hipper than you think you are. At least to me ;)



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Carole Turner

posted July 28, 2010 at 8:56 pm


Good ole Mark Driscoll, I got all worked up about things he says a couple years ago on my blog, speaking of which, tomorrow is my 5 year blog-iversary! :-)



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matt mewhorter

posted July 28, 2010 at 9:02 pm


I suggest reading “Nerds: A History of My People” that goes into depth about Muscular Christianity and how it has influenced the rift between “jocks” and “nerds” based on Christian ‘standards’ of physical excellence, and that being a good Christian was being stronger than the other.

Here’s a tidbit on the subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscular_Christianity



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    Sean R Reid

    posted July 29, 2010 at 9:09 am


    Sorry, I don’t see what’s so bad about this: “The least of the muscular Christians has hold of the old chivalrous and Christian belief, that a man’s body is given him to be trained and brought into subjection, and then used for the protection of the weak, the advancement of all righteous causes, and the subduing of the earth which God has given to the children of men.”

    Sounds alot like this to me: Genesis 1:28 “God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish of the sea and the birds of the air and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”

    I agree that the idea has it’s limitations and can probably become greatly taken out of context. Particularly by teenagers who are searching for some sort of identity. But embracing your masculinity and spreading the love of Christ is hardly a bad thing.



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amy courts

posted July 28, 2010 at 10:36 pm


I think Husband would totally disagree with this. In the same way he kind of hated ‘wild at heart’ for mass-generalizing and mass-defining (and thus marginalizing those who fail to “fit” said definition of) “masculinity.” He wouldn’t be the fat lazy guy sitting outside the cage wishing he was in it; he’d probably be the fit guy going, “really? we’ve devolved to this? cock fights?” But then, he totally digs boy movies that are all war-ish, and he’s quite the sports fanatic…so who knows.

I, as a woman and a wife, don’t get it at all. I’m all for men being men, and being manly men at that. But I think this need, this drive Mark talks about, to get in a cage and prove you’re manlier than someone else has more to do with pride than genuine masculinity. That, and it tells all these men out there who’d rather make magic out of computers or music or art or anything else outside the cage that they’re a) not manly, b) not masculine, and c) are just fat and lazy.

I just don’t dig mass-generalizations or the assumption that masculinity has anything to do with punching someone in the face. It pigeon holes too many people. This video gives one standard of manliness that lots of guys won’t – and don’t want to – live up to, kind of like how women are given a standard of beauty/usefulness/helpfulness that is impossible to meet every time, even if we’re trying.



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    Sean R Reid

    posted July 29, 2010 at 8:59 am


    This is sort of a dual response to your comment and the one above. What about us nerds who were never jocks to begin with but still love sports like MMA, boxing, etc… ? Personally I’m lousy at any sport that involves balls, hoops or goals. But I discovered I was pretty good at body control. So I turned to dance, gymnastics, martial arts and more recently boxing.

    I was a ballet dancer and a cheerleader all through highschool and into college. I was built like a stick figure until I was 18 an hit a growth spurt. I was also a fairly easy target for the “jocks.”

    I’m a web developer now and have worked in IT all my life. I have a degree in English and I love writing, literature and poetry. So I get paid to, and enjoy, making magic from computers and art.

    I think you could also toss folks like Henry Rollins into this “nerd” camp and he’s gone on more than once to extol the virtues of being physically fit. Although, I’m unsure of his opinion of MMA. Regardless, it’s just as generalizing to say that so-called “nerds” can’t be physically fit. Or to say that those that are physically fit do so in order to dominate those that aren’t.

    My wife dated almost exclusively “jocks” before she met me. According to her I’m the most masculine “manly” guy she has ever met.

    All that to say that it’s best not mass-generalize when you’re criticizing mass-generalization.

    As I said in an earlier comment, Driscoll isn’t saying that you HAVE to punch someone in the face to prove you’re a man. He’s saying that the sport of MMA provides a safe, healthy, outlet for men to channel natural aggressive and competitive tendencies (which even “nerds” have).

    Again, at worst he’s guilty of being an MMA fanboy.



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      amy courts

      posted July 30, 2010 at 7:22 am


      touche! and fair.

      i totally get what md is saying about mma being a good, safe outlet. and i dig that. husband is a fan.

      what i don’t dig is this implication that all men – if they’re real men – will want to participate in this or other beat-each-other-up activities.

      obviously, md is speaking for and to mma fans about being a man who wants to fight because it’s in his dna to want it. i get that it’s written in lady dna to want to be and feel beautiful. but that doesn’t mean we all obsess about makeup, fashion, or vanity – or even “true beauty” – or that we’re looking for beauty contests, or that we should. (poor analogy i know…but it’s the best i can do this early in the morning.)



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run_sleep_art

posted July 28, 2010 at 10:45 pm


Does anyone else notice the clip is only 1min 12 seconds long…literally a soundbite…perhaps casting presumption upon the context of this soundbite is a little hasty?



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Pingback: Perspective « five bares

Lex

posted July 29, 2010 at 1:08 am


Anyone who claims not to see “the big deal” or whatever, please read the post at Burnside Writers’ Collective, linked in MPT’s post. From there: “Mark Driscoll goes overboard explaining he’s a dude.”



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    run_sleep_art

    posted July 29, 2010 at 2:59 am


    Yeah I read that article, and then I read the NY Times piece on him…now considering I live in NZ ya’ll have to forgive because I can’t just jump on a $20 plane and go to his church, so a lot of my ‘knowledge’ or opinion on him is formed through random sermons I listen to of his, so church politics (other then the Rob Bell scandal) evade me.

    I think he has a lot of good material, I don’t think he is perfect, I certainly don’t agree with all the Calvinist ideas that he seems to support, but I DO think he is preaching on topics and things that the church have not heard for a long time and DOES need to hear, I think his church does a great job of reaching those who feel they can’t be reached or welcomed into other church’s because they don’t ‘fit’…imagine if Marilyn Manson had gone to Driscolls church, maybe he’d be making half decent albums about worth while topics and doing real paintings instead of getting drunk and high then doing self portraits.



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      Lex

      posted July 29, 2010 at 1:04 pm


      Why would Driscoll be more likely to reach someone like Marilyn Manson than the hundreds of thousands (or however many) of other pastors in the U.S.? Because he cusses and dresses like Fall Out Boy?

      I’d be interested to hear what you think is unique to Driscoll’s message, i.e., what topics he’s preaching on that the church needs to but has not heard in a long time. I don’t see what’s unique about him, other than that he’s loud and likes to stir up controversy.



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        run_sleep_art

        posted July 29, 2010 at 7:23 pm


        Well..If you look at Manson..he’s a pretty scary dude. If you look at a guy covered in tatts..he looks like a pretty scary dude..Do you think ALL other churches are going to be quite as warmly welcoming as Driscolls church appears to be?



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          Lex

          posted July 30, 2010 at 4:27 am


          Unless I missed something, Driscoll & Mars Hill have not actually reached Marilyn Manson, so I have to conclude that they’re just as likely/unlikely as anyone else. And, anyway, I’ve been a part of a couple old school fundamentalist churches in my past, and I’ve seen “scary” people welcomed there with regularity.

          Even if that weren’t true, Driscoll’s style of “relevance” just doesn’t seem that unique to me.



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The Dude

posted July 29, 2010 at 9:31 am


Wow…I mean, wow.
I guess my argument here would be that men also have urges to have what’s not theirs, have sex with multiple women, and other things, but that doesn’t make it right. Just because we were created with a penis doesn’t mean we HAVE to use it.
Besides, isn’t there a verse that says, “…train yourself to be godly. For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things.”?? (1 Timothy 4:8)
I guess I don’t see what’s wrong with being overweight if you’re trying to be a godly person.



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    Sean R Reid

    posted July 29, 2010 at 9:36 am


    Gluttony anyone?



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      Lex

      posted July 29, 2010 at 1:06 pm


      You’re skimming over The Dude’s point to make a presumptuous blanket judgment that isn’t necessarily more true of overweight people than it is of fit or even underweight people.



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      The Dude

      posted July 29, 2010 at 8:34 pm


      Yes, gluttony is wrong, but you make an unfair assumption…
      I know people who eat three times as much as me, but are skinny as a rail.
      Notice i did not say “what’s wrong with overeating”, but “what’s wrong with being overweight.”



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    run_sleep_art

    posted July 29, 2010 at 7:27 pm


    Self control, gluttony…both sins..if you were ‘really’ trying to be godly wouldn’t you exercise those?

    I think you’d find MMA displays a lot of self control.



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Gary Durbin

posted July 29, 2010 at 10:24 am


I have a feeling that “Pastor Mark” has a very masculine painting of Jesus in his rugged office. I bet he calls his office the octagon. :)



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sharon autenrieth

posted July 29, 2010 at 3:06 pm


thoughts? my thoughts after watching that aren’t fit for print.



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run_sleep_art

posted July 29, 2010 at 7:28 pm


Hmmm – here’s a question. If two guys agree to punch each other in the arm, chest or legs until one of them gives up or ‘taps out’…is that uncontrolled, malicious violence? Or is that a mutual agreement to fight?



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Connie

posted July 29, 2010 at 7:39 pm


“Men are made for dominion”?!? *shudder* Yea, my dad dominion’ed the H out of us kids–I had to suppress my true self in order to survive that hellish childhood. It also screwed with my ability to relate to (relatively sane) men as an adult. And the presumption that it’s somehow not manly to have or express feelings…*sigh*.



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b

posted July 31, 2010 at 6:48 pm


The man uses a chapstick before he goes up to preach. Just saying.

There seems to be a context to that video that isn’t shown. I am not agreeing with what he says – but he seems to be saying we need to find appropriate ways for men to be men, though I am not sure what that really means and I am pretty sure that cage fighting was not a very smart way to express it.

I don’t think cage fighting represents what it means to be a man anyway. Jesus was a very complex individual, a very complex man. At times incredibly gentle and at times very forceful, even violent. But I don’t think two guys without balls beating the snot out of each other in a cage is the one and only symbol of what it means to be a man.

But then Driscoll is a reactionary and here he is reacting against something.
Just not sure what.



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Julia

posted July 31, 2010 at 11:27 pm


He is the poster child for Neanderthals.



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Taylor

posted August 9, 2010 at 12:43 pm


Before I quit church entirely, I always had youth and college pastors who talked, looked and preached like this. For my twenty one years of living, I never could stand any kind of sermon on gender roles because they served only one purpose: to overtly claim that I and others like me were inferior, weak, and impotent. It is a distortion and a lie to say that all men are interested in hunting, wrestling and feats-of-strength competition. Saying so in church sermons from childhood to young adulthood doesn’t accomplish anything more than to deeply hurt people like me. Because all through life church leaders told me I was different. Maybe not directly, but implicitly. I was told from the pulpit I was too emotional, submissive, homosexual, deviant. It hurts, and still hurts to this day.



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Joe

posted August 19, 2010 at 4:23 pm


One of the best MMA fighters, who just appeared on the last UFC pay-per-view, is fat with flab hanging over his belt. I won’t mention his name but goes by the nickname “Big Country” and fights out of Las Vegas. He admits that he doesn’t follow a diet. This fighter would fit Driscoll’s sterotype of being “fat and lazy” That’s proof that Driscoll doesn’t know what he is talking about.

It seems to me that Driscoll takes out his aggression with his mouth. He is never at a loss for giving his opinion or telling someone off.



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