God's Politics

God's Politics


Jim Wallis: Ending the War is a Matter of Faith

posted by gp_intern

Several thousand Christians from around the country will gather at the Washington National Cathedral this evening for a Christian Peace Witness for Iraq worship service, followed by a candlelight procession to the White House. This is an excerpt from the talk I will give this evening. We’ll have the full text and coverage of the event next week.

For all of us here tonight, the war in Iraq has become a matter of faith.

By our deepest convictions about Christian standards and teaching, the war in Iraq was not just a well-intended mistake or only mismanaged. THIS WAR, FROM A CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW, IS MORALLY WRONG – AND WAS FROM THE VERY START. It cannot be justified with either the teachings of Jesus Christ OR the criteria of St. Augustine’s just war. It simply doesn’t pass either test and did not from its beginning. This war is not just an offense against the young Americans who have made the ultimate sacrifice or to the Iraqis who have paid such a horrible price. This war is not only an offense to the poor at home and around the world who have paid the price of misdirected resources and priorities. This war is also an offense against God.

And so we are here tonight, very simply and resolutely, to begin to end the war in Iraq. But not by anger, though we are angry, and not just by politics, though it will take political courage. But by faith, because we are people of faith.

This service and procession are not just another political protest but an act of faith, an act of prayer, an act of nonviolent witness. Politics led us into this war, and politics is unlikely to save us by itself. The American people have voted against the war in Iraq but political proposals keep failing, one after the other.

I believe it will take faith to end this war. It will take prayer to end it. It will take a mobilization of the faith community to end it – to change the political climate, to change the wind. It will take a revolution of love to end it. Because this endless war in Iraq is based ultimately on fear, and Jesus says that only perfect love will cast out fear.

So tonight we say, as people of faith, as followers of Jesus, that the deep fear that has paralyzed the conscience of this nation, that has caused us to become the kind of people that we are not called to be, that has allowed us to tolerate violations of our most basic values, and that has perpetuated an endless cycle of violence and counter-violence must be exorcised as the demon it is – THIS FEAR MUST BE CAST OUT!

And to cast out that fear, we must act in faith, in prayer, in love, and in hope – so we might help to heal the fears that keep this war going. Tonight we march not in belligerence, or to attack individuals – even those leaders directly responsible for the war – or to use human suffering for partisan political purposes. Rather, we process to the White House tonight as an act of faith, believing that only faith can save us now.



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Michael Buchman

posted March 16, 2007 at 8:39 pm


We have a right to defend ourselves…and our faith. When Israel fought in the name of God they were directed to invade, overcome and convert the enemy. Jesus said that he did not come to change the law but to add to it. Jesus is the Son of the same Father we worship in the OT. There is no other God but Jehovah.



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Payshun

posted March 16, 2007 at 9:13 pm


Actually Jesus came to fulfill it. The idea that our faith needs to be defended is silly. Jesus is our defense or have you forgotten the stories of the martyrs and their faith.We need Christians that will stand by the tenets of the faith of the old school church. We need Christians that are willing to stand up against fear and destruction and I am glad this post calls for that. We need to be willing to die for our faiths in the path of non-violence not a war mongering foolish interfaith war. p



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D4P

posted March 16, 2007 at 9:35 pm


The example set forth by Jesus involved dying for faith, not killing for it. Also, can someone explain why “the criteria of St. Augustine s just war” are given so much credibility from Christians? Wasn’t he ultimately just “some guy” giving his opinions? Why are one person’s opinions more godly than another’s?



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justintime

posted March 16, 2007 at 10:19 pm


Cast out your fear. If no one is afraid the war is over.Will the Peace Witness at the National Cathedral be televised? I hope when the procession gets to the White House someone knocks on the front door. .



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Sonja Dupee

posted March 16, 2007 at 10:30 pm


It is becoming increasingly disturbing how many christians seems to equate this war to some noble purpose and suppress the various questions that has arisen for its reason for existence. We are people of faith and not of fear. This war has been promoted and fueled by fear and a false representation of patriotism. We are people of conscience and must speak out loud for the perpetuation of the mission of Christ. We are called to die for what we believe in and not kill for what we want. We need to put our faith into practice and truly believe that our battle is not against flesh and blood but against spiritual darkness in high places. We need to put on our true armour of God and fight with the spiritual weapons of prayers and fasting and bring down strongholds in the spiritual realm that is really dictating what we see in the natural. We need to really start believing this truth of scripture. Our battle is not carnal no matter how it appears to the natural eyes of mankind.



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CV

posted March 16, 2007 at 11:38 pm


Michael Buchman, “We have a right to defend ourselves…” Granting that individuals and nations have a right to self defense, what threat did Iraq, under Sadam Husein, pose to the United States? Sadam was adequately contained with operations Southern and Northern watch. Even if the intelligence we had at the time had been 100% accurate, and had not been manipulated for political purposes, Sadam had not used WMD against rebel groups within Iraq since the 1980′s, nor had he used them against the U.S. led coalition in 1990-91, and there was no indication of an immanent intent to use those weapons against the U.S. or its allies. Without clear evidence of a valid threat, the argument of self defense is moot. “…and our faith.” Sadam was a secularist, that is he was a nominally practicing Muslim, he allowed Christians and others to live in Iraq with a degree of liberty that was more generous than that offered by some american allies in the region. In fact Sadam elevated some non muslims to the highest levels of his government. Tariq Aziz, who served as Prime Minister under Sadam, is a Chaldean Christian which is a rite within the Roman Catholic Church. “When Israel fought in the name of God they were directed to invade, overcome and convert the enemy.” The U.S. is not Israel, Iraq is not our promised land, and we are not fighting in the name of God. If I remember the rhetoric correctly, we invaded to prevent Sadam from using WMD and to establish democracy in the Middle East. These goals are not analogous to God leading Israel out of slavery and into the Promised Land.



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Bill Samuel

posted March 16, 2007 at 11:40 pm


We need to stop the endless warring. Working against a particular war is good, but not enough. The endless cycle of wars needs to stop. The current pope (before being elevated to this position) noted that it is virtually impossible to imagine the conditions for a just war being met. While I think the pre-Constantinian Christian church position that Christians can never support war is more faithful to Christ than the “just war” position, if one rigorously follows the just war criteria there is no practical difference with the pacifist position. Christians must oppose all wars. While the Catholic Church has steadily advanced in its position on war and other life issues, there has been retrogression among Protestants. Jim Wallis reflects this retrogression, and Sojourners has moved in the wrong direction over its life as an organization. Wallis just doesn’t get it. He opposes one current war, but steadfastly refuses to regard military spending as a moral issue. Somehow he avoids even mentioning the largest part of the budget when arguing that the budget is a moral issue. And he toadies up to Democratic establishment figures who favor war, abortion and the death penalty. There are some groups which do get it. Support groups like Evangelicals for Social Action and Friends Committee on National Legislation instead of Sojourners.



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A. Bennett

posted March 17, 2007 at 12:07 am


I think people ought to fast and pray to God our heavenly father before making and decisions about anything that concerns our faith. If you take a look in the bible you will see that the prophets fasted and Jesus himself have fasted and people have fasted in order to contend with these problems,



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Paul

posted March 17, 2007 at 4:06 am


For a thoughtful discussion of some of the issues: http://www.cofe.anglican.org/info/socialpublic/international/foreignpolicy/terrorism.pdf cheers, Paul



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Rachel

posted March 17, 2007 at 4:10 am


I would like to invite all of you to join us for a conversation about how to create a more just, compassionate and peaceful world at http://www.justiceandcompassion.com/



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Butch

posted March 17, 2007 at 5:08 am


Where is Kevin et, al, someone needs to get this discussion back on course.



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john bullock

posted March 17, 2007 at 5:31 am


why does anybody think that we are living in a christian country or that our leaders are christian? that”s why things don’t add up.



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Rev. paul conley

posted March 17, 2007 at 6:22 am


If we see a man beaten and lying in a ditch, we are obligated to help him up. Jesus makes this perfectly clear. The Iraquis people were beaten and slaughtered by the Butcher of Baghdad. We could not turn our backs on them or of our own right to defend ourselves from an unprovoked attack.



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Butch

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:37 am


The dictator we helped install in Chile killed up to 30,000, why did we turn our backs and what did you have to say about that at that time?



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justintime

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:42 am


The good reverend is a bit confused about America’s reasons for invading Iraq under the Bush doctrine of preemptive war. America was not acting as the good Samaritan here. Iraq was a sovereign nation that was absolutely no threat to America whatsoever. The real reason Bush/Cheney lied America into invading Iraq was theft of Iraq’s oil resource. Thou shalt not murder. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not lie. Thou shalt not covet. .



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Doug

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:45 am


I can not believe what I am reading on this website? You act like Jesus was a weakling and a pacifist. Have you forgot how evil Saddam was. Have you forgot how much Islamists hate Americans? This war is a religious war and it sounds to me like this website is on the side of the enemy. Please do not respond and tell me that they hate us because we are an evil nation. The great USA has done more good for the world then any other country on earth. Make no mistake about it this is a relgious war. If you are christians as you say you are why would you take the side of the enemy?



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Butch

posted March 17, 2007 at 8:19 am


Doug I say this in the kindest way possible, you are a sick pup.



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Butch

posted March 17, 2007 at 8:22 am


Thou shalt not lie. . justintime | Apologist for the war posing as christians never seem to be concerned about the lies leading up to the war.



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Chance

posted March 17, 2007 at 8:53 am


Look Doug,This is not a religious war, it is a war over natural resources. At the heart of our nation is Imperialism through and through. So, forgive me for being critical of the fact that America has only went to war primarily for its own gains rather than to fight for justice.This isn’t a religious war because Hussein controlled Iraq under the Ba’ath Party, which espoused secular Pan-Arabism (a movement for uniting the various Arab people), economic modernization, and socialism. For the most part Iraq was a secular nation not an Arab nation. Also, despite the fact that America is vastly Christian, it too is a secular nation. This isn’t at all a religious war but a secular war and that is what most wars are.



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Butch

posted March 17, 2007 at 9:27 am


This isn’t at all a religious war but a secular war and that is what most wars are. ChanceWell reasoned and expressed, neither reason nor facts overcome feelings. Doug feels this is a war of religions and nothing will change his mind.Everyone who promotes war should have to fight in one.



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Donny

posted March 17, 2007 at 2:29 pm


WAR IS A MATTER OF FAITH . . . Taught in Islam. Believed as such by one-hundred milion Muslims (Ten Percent that believe in Jihad as war. Which of course it is.) You Marxist Socialists pretending to care about America should take your sham of a religious cause TO Islamic countries where WAR IS A MATTER OF FACT AND FAITH. If you are going to pretend you are Christians then do it where it will stop the murders and war that never end. Pick any Islamic country. Stop playing your communist ruse here in America.While we non-communist Americans still have freedom of speech (until you Marxists take over complete power) we can effectively challenge your deceptions and political aims. While you march against President Bush, how many thousands of children were just tortured and executed in the abortion mills in Western countries INCLUDING America. While Hugo Chavez is whipping Central and South America into WAR AGAINST AMERICANS, you pretend Christians yell and scream at George Bush. Your fruit is showing.And I don’t mean your undies.



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justintime

posted March 17, 2007 at 4:55 pm


Christians Gather in D.C. to Protest War SARAH KARUSH | AP | March 17, 2007WASHINGTON Thousands of Christians prayed for peace at an anti-war service Friday night at the Washington National Cathedral, kicking off a weekend of protests around the country to mark the fourth anniversary of the war in Iraq. Afterward, participants marched with battery-operated faux candles through snow and wind toward the White House, where police began arresting protesters shortly before midnight. Protest guidelines require demonstrators to continue moving while on the White House sidewalk. “We gave them three warnings, and they broke the guidelines,” said Lt. Scott Fear. “There’s an area on the White House sidewalk where you have to keep moving.” About 100 people crossed the street from Lafayette Park _ where thousands of protesters were gathered _ to demonstrate on the White House sidewalk late Friday. Police began cuffing them and putting them on buses to be taken for processing. Fear said 222 people had been arrested by Saturday morning. The first 100 were charged with disobeying a lawful order, and the others with crossing a police line. All of them were fined $100. The windows of the executive mansion were dark, as the president was away for the weekend at Camp David in Maryland….. Read the entire story here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/huff-wires/20070317/war-protest-christians Maybe Jim Wallis will give us an account of the evening’s events. The protestors are true Christians and American patriots. .



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carl copas

posted March 17, 2007 at 5:36 pm


Paul, thanks for the link to the Anglican document on international situation. A very thought-provoking paper.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 17, 2007 at 6:52 pm


The CIA’s activities are controversial, both in the United States and abroad, in countries with which the U.S. has a nominal friendship, where the agency has operated (or allegedly operated). Particularly during the “Cold War, the CIA supported many dictators, including General Augusto Pinochet of Chile; dictators in Central America, the Shah of Iran, and the religious despots in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kuwait and Indonesia, who have been friendly to perceived U.S. geopolitical interests (anti-Communism, natural resource access for petroleum companies and multinational corporations, and implementing neoliberal economics), oftentimes against elected governments. “Later, the CIA facilitated the Reagan Doctrine, the illegal channelling of weapons and material to Jonas Savimbi’s right-wing UNITA rebel movement in Angola (in addition to the Afghan Mujahedeen and the Nicaraguan Contras), in response to Cuban military support for the MPLA, converting, thus, an otherwise low-profile African civil war into one of the larger battlegrounds of the U.S. U.S.S.R. Cold War. “Moreover, the CIA nominally supported Pol Pot’s nativist, communist rule in Cambodia when Vietnam attempted toppling the regime in 1979. Though Communist, Pol Pot’s regime was anti-Soviet and anti-Vietnamese; being aided by China during the Sino-Soviet split (at the time, there existed a Sino American rapprochement), thus gaining the CIA’s approval.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Intelligence_Agency#Support_for_foreign_dictators see also: Dictators R Us by Noam Chomsky http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article5411.htm Tainted Legacy Dancing with Dictators by William F: Schulz http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Dictators/Dancing_Dictators.html



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Payshun

posted March 17, 2007 at 6:52 pm


Donny, I wonder if you post here just to read what you write. I really wonder that. I wonder if you know what grace and love are. As soon as I was going to say something snarky the spirit filled me and all I wanted to do was give you a hug.Got to love the holy spirit. Even when you annoy everyone else he still loves you and just wants you to know that you are loved unconditionally.One more thing Rome was in a constant state of war and look at what Christians were able to do there, or Japan where they were literally wiped out or… The question is not where we take the person of Christ, its being willing to suffer to see it happen.Donny I don’t think you love enough to put yourself in a postion to do any true sacrifice. Maybe you should start here. Instead of attacking liberals and calling us commies (when we are not) try saying one simple nice statement. Just try it might make your day better. p



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neuro_nurse

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:01 pm


Hey Donny (et alia), What about these guys? Dictators Supported by the U.S. Government General Sani Abacha, Nigeria Idi Amin, Uganda Colonel Hugo Banzer, Bolivia Fulgencio Batista, Cuba Sir Hassanal Bolkiah, Brunei P.W. Botha, South Africa General Humberto Branco, Brazil Raoul Cedras, Haiti Vinicio Cerezo, Guatemala Chiang Kai-Shek, Taiwan Roberto Suazo Cordova, Honduras Alfredo Christiani, El Salvador Ngo Dihn Diem, Vietnam General Samuel Doe, Liberia Francois Duvalier, Haiti Jean Claude Duvalier, Haiti King Fahd bin’Abdul-’Aziz, Saudi Arabia General Francisco Franco, Spain Hassan II Morocco Ferdinand Marcos, Philippines General Maximiliano Hernandez Martinez, El Salvador Mobutu Sese Seko, Zaire General Efrain Rios Montt, Guatemala General Manuel Noriega, Panama Turgut Ozal, Turkey Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlevi, Iran George Papadopoulos, Greece Park Chung Hee, South Korea General Augusto Pinochet, Chile Pol Pot, Cambodia General Sitiveni Rabuka, Fiji General Efrain Rios Montt, Guatemala Halie Salassie, Ethiopia Antonio de Oliveira Salazar, Portugal Anastasio Somoza Jr., Nicaragua Anastasio Somoza Sr., Nicaragua Ian Smith, Rhodesia Alfredo Stroessner, Paraguay General Suharto, Indonesia Rafael Leonidas Trujillo, Dominican Republic General Jorge Rafael Videla, Argentina Mohammed Zia Ul-Haq, Pakistan http://www.omnicenter.org/warpeacecollection/dictators.htm



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neuro_nurse

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:09 pm


Payshun, I don’t think Donny even reads the responses to his ridiculous posts. I have never seen him participate in a dialog on the subjects to which he interjects his diatribes. It seems that he simply posts a vitriolic opinion that is antithetic to the gospel of our Lord and then abandons the thread. Thank you for your very touching and Christian message. Peace! (that means to you too, Donny)



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Doug

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:44 pm


The same old liberal lie is being told on this website about all the lies being told that led up to this war. Funny but everybody in the world and I mean everybody knew and still does that Sadam did have WMDS. Just because we can not find them does not mean he did not have them. If George Bush is as stupid as liberals claim him to be then how did he manage to fool the whole world? I am not saying that liberals can’t be christians but sincre liberals view of the world is based on emotions rather then fact it kind of makes you wonder. Yes I was a liberal at one time. Then when I gave my heart to the Lord Jesus Christ I saw liberlism for it was. A very evil and misguided view. Before you go jumping on me for being mean spirited I am not calling liberals evil, I am calling liberalism and all it stands for evil. If you disagree and you are really a christian take it to the Lord and ask him to show you the truth. If you really mean it I believe he will.



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Steph

posted March 17, 2007 at 7:59 pm


I can’t believe how many foolish Christians there are out there, hello, read your Bibles, so called Christians, God sent man into battle many times against nations for disobedience, hatred, adultery, religuous reasons, etc. Who is Jim Wallis or anybody else to speak for God and say this war is wrong. All I know is that I was told to may face, by a young Muslim that he was here for a free education and then going home(Middle East country) and figure out a way to blow America off the face of the earth, exact words. I have no doubt whatsoever that he meant it. Americans have to choose, are we going to fight this war over there or on American soil? I pray for our troops and President Bush every day and who are you to question what God is doing, if there are millions of people praying for our President, as God commands us to to, then who are you to questions what God is doing? We are to pray for God’s will, not ours, so that is what I suggest Christians get on with, and I know that President Bush is a Christian and welcomes our prays for wisdom and direction from God, so shame on you Christians for bashing him and degrading him when you should be lifting him up in prayer! My suggestion is that you start doing a little more Bible study and a little less talking.



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Don

posted March 17, 2007 at 8:30 pm


Doug and Steph: Been there, done that, Doug. I was once a hardline conservative, who thought liberalism was the political incarnation of evil. Guess what? God delivered me from that kind of judgmental attitude. I didn’t ask him to do that, but he did it anyway. I still believe I’m basically conservative, but I don’t think liberals are de facto demons anymore. I used to. And, more to your point, I don’t necessarily think that ideas that some people might classify as liberal are evil in and among themselves. Should I say that again? Not all so-called “liberal” ideas are evil, Doug. And certainly not all “conservative” ideas are good, either! God is neither liberal nor conservative. God loves all of us, even though *we* are evil on account of sin. I won’t try to refute to your comments about the premises under which you believe we entered Iraq, thought if Saddam did have WMDs, why haven’t we found them? We’ve looked just about everywhere since we occupied the country. And what “liberal” lie are you talking about, anyway? What about the misinformation that led us into Iraq in the first place? Aren’t all lies evil? Isn’t there a commandment against bearing false witness? (See, Seph, I do read my Bible!) And going to war on false pretenses, in opposition to all Christian teaching about warfare, including just war theory–isn’t that about the epitome of evil? And Steph, praying for our president (which I do) isn’t the same thing as agreeing with his decisions. I can still pray for him even though I think he has led us down the wrong path. Steph, our president’s unjust war in Iraq has made rooting out Islamist terrorism much more difficult. Generations to come will be paying for this misadventure. Responding to the Islamist threat didn’t mean invading a nation that had nothing to do with the attacks we suffered (saying that there was a connection between Saddam Hussein and the 9/11 hijackers was a *lie*, by the way, that came right from the president and his administration, and a clear violation of that commandment against bearing false witness), killing untold thousands of innocent civilians, and uncorking a sectarian civil war there. How can that be seen as just or righteous in any sense? Think about what you are saying. Think about what you are supporting and what our president has done. Measure it against the standards set forth in the Sermon on the Mount, as well as the Ten Commandments. I think you will see that these actions fall far short of anything that thinking Christians would support. My prayer is that we would come to repent for this madness. Peace!



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Steph

posted March 17, 2007 at 9:27 pm


Wow, the killing of untold innocent civilians, and not take a stance, sounds like we did the wrong thing as far as Hitler and the stance America took then, Don, we live in a small world now, Don, and what the Middle East does affects us whether you agree or not and whether you like it or not. I guess you have to decide what you want our world to look like, cowering under the Muslim threat or NOT.



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Don

posted March 17, 2007 at 9:36 pm


Steph, did you read what I said? The UNJUST invasion of Iraq is making it MUCH MORE DIFFICULT to deal with the Islamist threat. FUTURE GENERATIONS will be paying for this folly. That means it’s more likely now that we will in the future be cowering, to use your words, than would have been true if we had stayed out of Iraq. Iraq you cannot compare our invasion of Iraq with the fight against Hitler in Germany. There is very little in common. Sure, Saddam was an evil tyrant who murdered his own people and thought he could become a bigger threat to the rest of us. But he was being contained through sanctions and through other pressures. And we had the means to put even more pressure on him. Did you read the proposal from Sojourners that was on the table before the invasion? It just could have unseated him without a bloody invasion. Wouldn’t that have been better. But Bush decided he wanted to go it alone without most of the rest of the world. He gambled and lost. And his administration LIED TO US!! They tried to tie it in with 9/11, WHICH WAS NOT TRUE. Do you as a Christian think these lies were acceptable? Defend them if you can; my Bible says bearing false witness is wrong.



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Kathleen Liles

posted March 17, 2007 at 9:41 pm


I am deeply and profoudly ashamed that my coutry chose to go half-way aroud the world to launch “shock and awe” o a country the size of Kentucky. And now, after well over 3000 deaths of American soldiers, our President continues to tell us to keep sacrificing lives and treasure in order to “win.” It is appalling.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 17, 2007 at 10:03 pm


Kathleen Liles, We must not forget the tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis who have been killed or disabled since the unjustifiable U.S. invasion of Iraq. Peace!



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Paul

posted March 17, 2007 at 10:48 pm


carl copas, I’m very glad you found it helpful. cheers, Paul



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Kevin

posted March 17, 2007 at 11:25 pm


What amazes me is the amount of namecalling by people who claim to be “Christians.” And when someone says they “gave their heart” to Jesus and magically, apparently, became a “conservative” I want to laugh.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 12:50 am


Doug, Steph, Donny, et cetera, I m not really sure how to respond to your posts, other than to say you are regurgitating political rhetoric, which is by no means equivalent to Christian doctrine. I would go so far as to say that you have allowed your political allegiance to supersede your allegiance to Christ. Your statements regarding the president sound suspiciously like idolatry. You seem to equate challenging the president or his war with lack of patriotism, or even go so far as to call us communists. (are you sure you really know what that word means, Donny?) You place too much trust in this president. He is a man, and his deceptiveness has been revealed repeatedly. Did you place as much trust in Bill Clinton, who is also a Christian and a man of prayer? Those are my opinion, now here is a fact. I can t speak for other denominations, but the Catholic Church opposed the invasion of Iraq and continues to oppose this president s policies in the Middle East. Church Statements on Iraq http://www.usccb.org/sdwp/peace/churchleaders.htm The Catholic Church is not known to be a bastion of liberal ideology. Just one more reason I m glad I m Catholic! Peace!



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 2:06 am


Here is a synopsis of other religious denominations position on the Iraq war. Your Religion’s Stance on Iraq: A faith-by-faith guide to where the major religious denominations stand on war with Iraq. http://www.beliefnet.com/story/121/story_12190_1.html Steph, I have lived in and hitch hiked around Muslim countries (plural). I live in Iran in 1978. I smiled and waved at demonstrators who were chanting, Bad, bad, America! Twice when I was traveling in eastern Ethiopia I was confronted by young Muslim men who exclaimed, George Bush is bad! (They seemed surprised when I didn t disagree with them) I have absolutely no fear of Muslims and would sooner trust the average Muslim than I would any American who suggests that opposing this president s policies are unpatriotic.



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VCU

posted March 18, 2007 at 2:27 am


Question…for those that oppose war with Iraq, how do we deal with trully evil men like Saddam? Hitler? Stalin?



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Don

posted March 18, 2007 at 2:29 am


I agree with neuro_nurse. I would just add that most Muslims are not Islamists. The Islamists–those who have declared jihad against the West–are a small minority. Unfortunately, the US actions in Iraq have made it easier for the Islamists to recruit people to their cause. That is one reason I said that future generations will be paying for our current administration’s folly. The Bush team’s unjust and immoral actions in Iraq have renewed and strengthened the threat, not diminished it. To paraphrase Martin Luther, I would rather see competent Muslims in our government than incompetent Christians. Salaam,



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:08 am


VCU, Well, if we can profit from them, we give them aid and support. See my 03.17.07 – 12:06 pm post. Peace!



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:13 am


Peace! (that means to you too, Donny) neuro_nurse God hands out justice, etc I don’t think Donny deserves your blessings! Or your time.



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justintime

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:19 am


Just one more reason I m glad I m Catholic! Peace! neuro_nurse neuro, what do you think of Opus Dei influence in America? I’m thinking of Tony Scalia, Clarence Thomas et al. Scalia’s expressed views seem to fit in with rightwing evangelicals, dominionists, maybe even Reverend Moon. No? Are you still in Seattle?



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:24 am


If George Bush is as stupid as liberals claim him to be then how did he manage to fool the whole world? Doug He didn’t fool the French or Germans or Canada. He may or may not be stupid but he did lie.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:30 am


cowering under the Muslim threat or NOT. Steph This is the beginning and end of Steph’s belief in the war. FEAR



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Don

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:32 am


VCU and neuro_nurse: Saddam Hussein should have been on that list, too. We gave him economic aid, intelligence, and weapons during the 1980s when he was at war with Iran. We have short memories.



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Don

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:39 am


butch You may remember that regarding WMDs, most of the world’s leaders were fooled by the faulty intelligence, including the Germans and French. Most of the world thought that Saddam indeed was developing WMD capabilities. I don’t think Bush deliberately lied about WMDs. He, like much of the world, thought Saddam had them or was close to getting them. But Bush’s team did misuse the WMD issue to push for the invasion. And I do feel they did lie about the supposed 9/11-Iraq connection, even though it was never demonstrated. ’nuff for now.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:41 am


Question…for those that oppose war with Iraq, how do we deal with trully evil men like Saddam? Hitler? Stalin? VCU Question…for those that oppose war with Iraq, how do we deal with trully evil men like Saddam? Hitler? Stalin? VCU We didn’t attack Hitler or Stalin, we opposed them. Neuro-nurse just posted a list of dictators we the US have supported, many were as bad as any you listed. Narrow minded thinking to support feelings not facts or knowledge.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:47 am


What amazes me is the amount of namecalling by people who claim to be “Christians.” And when someone says they “gave their heart” to Jesus and magically, apparently, became a “conservative” I want to laugh. Kevin Republi-nazi is not a name it is a descriptive term I coined to define your behavior. If I called you a bastard it would describe the martial status of your mother, if I called you a rotten bastard that would be name calling which I’m not doing.



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Don

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:48 am


butch, I don’t think that’s the same Kevin.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:54 am


neuro, what do you think of Opus Dei influence in America? I’m thinking of Tony Scalia, Clarence Thomas et al. Scalia’s expressed views seem to fit in with rightwing evangelicals, dominionists, maybe even Reverend Moon. No? Are you still in Seattle? justintime Just, don’t reduce this to a discussion of how good or bad a particular christian church is and I don’t think you want to. Scalia is one man who I guess is Catholic?



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:57 am


butch You may remember that regarding WMDs, most of the world’s leaders were fooled by the faulty intelligence, including the Germans and French. Most of the world thought that Saddam indeed was developing WMD capabilities. Don, the main intelligence was the US and Israel. I simply believe the neo-cons lied.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 3:59 am


butch, I don’t think that’s the same Kevin. DonOops if you are not Kevin S which I assumed then I apologize.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:41 am


neuro-nurse Thank you for bringing facts and figures to support your positions, althought I don’t have the patience.



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mark

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:42 am


Doug says: “You act like Jesus was a weakling and a pacifist.” Well, I haven’t acted like anything on this one until now, but the scriptural evidence seems fairly clear to me: the Jesus who went to the cross for me and for you was a man of massive courage … and a pacifist. Mark



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justintime

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:50 am


Yes, how did the Bushies do it? First off, corporate fascists have the deep pockets. Corporate media spins and spoon feeds fear, fascist propaganda and rightwing Republican talking points to the masses of distracted, susceptible Americans. Zoned out Americans believe what they see on teevee and what they’re told to believe. They’ve been trapped in a Republican echo chamber. Karl Rove’s divisive politics resonates with Americans obsessed with racist fear, religious intolerance, abortion or same sex partnerships. When Rove feeds into the fears of the obsessed, they will vote for the Devil himself without a question. Another important factor is that fundamentalist evangelicals allowed themselves to be duped into working tirelessly getting out the fascist vote. Alas, it turned out the fascists despised the fundies all along. And let us not forget that in recent years Republicans have committed massive election fraud; by purging registered Democrat voters from the rolls, intimidating Democrat voters from voting, shorting the availibility of voting machines in Democratic precincts, phone jamming Democratic get-out-the-vote efforts, false robocalls and rigging voting machines. Rove’s Republican machine has stolen two presidential elections from the Democrats. Karl Rove and his Republican machine is writing the book on election fraud. The Republican party in its present form despises Democracy. Rightwing conservatives want permanent rule of America by a fascist Republican party. And for them, the end justifies the means. America is very close to turning into a totalitarian dictatorship – at perpetual war with the Islamic world. After a relentless six year Putsch, the tide appears to be turning against fascism in America. But Americans are still at considerable risk of losing our Democracy and our Constitutional rights. We need to remain vigilant and insist that corruption and incompetence be eliminated from our government. Outside of America the world didn’t buy into Bush’s invasion of Iraq because they have their own national media telling them what to believe in. The rest of the world is praying for America to return to sanity and light the beacon of hope again. .



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:51 am


neuro what is so crazy about this is Bin-Laden scared us and I do understand that but we have spent our fortune, lives and place in the world chasing that fear. Slightly off topic but just to show our thinking is backwards. 18000 die each year because of drunk drivers, this includes 6000 children. Where is the war on drunk drivers, if they would just call themselves alcoholist we would be right after them. 3000 children every 6 mo since 9/11 some 30 or 40,000 CHILDREN dead and we send every penny we have or can borrow chasing this “war on terror”? Ben-Laden is laughing his butt off.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:56 am


justintime I don’t know much about Opus Dei – if that’s any indication of what I think of their influence. My wife and I moved to New Orleans. I’m working on my masters in public health & tropical medicine at Tulane. butch, I spend way too much time putting together responses to the bush apologists, but it’s I beleive it’s better to combat ignorance and lies with facts. The fact is, there is nothing inherently Christian or patriotic about supporting the war. Don, Thanks, I knew that. There is that famous (infamous?) photograph of Donald Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam Hussein out there for the Googling. Peace!



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 5:19 am


I spend way too much time putting together responses to the bush apologists, but it’s I believe it’s better to combat ignorance and lies with facts. Neuro-nurse Again thanks, I do challenge your use of the word lie, except for some, they believe those things without supporting facts of course. I to feel it is bringing back up the propaganda put out by the neo-cons. People like Donny are filled with hate, say me, and will not get it. Everything you post is readily available. Absent preconceived ideas it is obvious to the casual observer. The fear behind the hate just oozes out of their words. Fear is one of the most debilitating emotions, leading to poor thinking and other emotions like hate.



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Doug

posted March 18, 2007 at 5:44 am


justintime, Can you prove anything of what you just said about the republicans disinfranching democratics from voting or any other claims you made? I doubt it since most of that was never proved to have happened. I find it sad that most people are making baseless charges as fact against our president when they have no idea what is really happening. Let us face it, most everything on here is opinion and not fact. Mark Jesus was a pacifist? That is news is to me. Just because he gave his life does not mean he was a pacifist. The first time he came to die. The next time he comes it will be as king with an iron fist. Some pacifist huh? I have a question for all the pacifists on this site. Would you ever defend yourselves from danger or would you just let your enemies run all over you?



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 5:54 am


butch “they believe those things without supporting facts of course” Good point – see Doug’s comment above! Doug, read the news – there were no WMD



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 6:21 am


Doug I’m calling you out, one man to another. Where did you fight, when did you kill anyone or were you shot at. When did you volunteer to fight or even take the draft? When is the last time you visited a vet or helped one? Give me your outfit, rank so I can look it up. Wilddog_202@yahoo.com



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 6:24 am


“Would you ever defend yourselves from danger” Of course, but Iraq in no way represented a threat to the U.S.



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Dave

posted March 18, 2007 at 6:53 am


“We didn’t attack Hitler or Stalin, we opposed them.” ButchButch, I am not saying Iraq=Germany, but a question. Should US/Allies have attacked Hitler before he slaughtered 6 million? neuro_nurse, Assume the US “ends the war” and leaves Iraq. What do you think is going to happen? I don’t agree with much of what you have posted but I am genuinely curious about what you think.



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Donny

posted March 18, 2007 at 7:19 am


Hey Noam,How come Dictators are the usual course of things when Leftists take over. Hugo Chavez is declaring war on America and none of these little peace apathists are doing a thing about it. Enough to Chomsky’s hypocrisy. Christians do not support the kinds of people that march in these peace apathy parades because we know what they are just behind their signs. How many of the greyed and elderly hippies cared for even one dope-smoking second what happened to the millions of SE Asians killed by their socialist-communist bretren in Vietnam the moment American soldiers were defeated by American socialists? Those we now know as Progressives. These people marching in DC for their socialist peace, are anything but “Christians.” They resemble the men of Sodom more than the followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Any dissent is met with the same kinds of angry screaming mob rule. Or, “if” these Wallis-ites were Christians, they would be marching in Darfur or Mecca, where war is a matter of faith and facts. What we are witnessing in the kinds of people marching in these trumped up peace rants, are just the same hedonists that marched in the 60′s. The only difference now, is that the children don’t have parents that are married. Well, married in the way Jesus described anyway.It’s hard to be a Christian when you ignore Christ. Marching for peace so that you can inflict godless socialism on America, isn’t a good place to find a Christian marching either. But you find many Progressives. Why is it, that the “progress” being peddled by these neo-liberals, looks exactly like ancient paganism? Human sacrifice of the innocents, and ubiquitous lascivious licentiousness all. The kinds of people marching against American soldiers and America, in these shams called peace marches, are just the same old evil forces relabled and painted anew. Do they really think we cannot see that?History repeating itself is to be expected. Especially for those doomed to the cycle.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 7:33 am


I don’t agree with much of what you have posted but I am genuinely curious about what you think. Dave I’ll take you at your word and discuss my positions at length. I’m curious what I’ve said that you don’t agree with, be specific and I’ll explain or admit I misspoke myself or accept a different view. For example put your views against neuro-nurse, me and few others teach and learn. Rule; you can talk or learn, you can t do both at the same time. If you ve read much of what I ve posted you ll find me impatient with those who spit out a different view without support for there position call everyone names and leave without defending their position.We, the higher echelons of our government and army wanted to enter the conflict in Europe but there wasn’t support here until we were attacked by Japan. If we had known that Hitler would do what he did we may have, BIG BUT Hitler had a non-aggression pact with Russia that was very problematic and dangerous early on. Saddam wasn’t doing more than is being done in many places in the world and we don’t go in with “Shock and Awe”. It should be clear that we can’t police the world now, so we should never have gone. I spoke against it from the beginning because I knew history. For every insurgency put down there are 10 that the insurgents prevailed so we never had a chance to pacify Iraq and we don’t now. Iraq was cobbled together by the British about 1918 out at least 3 main groups Kurds, Shiite, Sunni and they have never wanted to be one country. Now they really don’t and they will not let us make them. It is insoluble by current methods and probably because of how we handled it can never be put back together. After it was clear we were going I argued that we go in as gently but determined as possible. Move out of Kuwait slowly putting down only resistance when it came up. Allowing Iraq to surrender, with little damage and little loss of life they may have actually received us with open arms. Then we had to forgive all the Bathist (sp) who would accept it. Get Iraq back to “normal” as soon as possible.



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Payshun

posted March 18, 2007 at 10:29 am


Donny, God bless you. May the blessings of God’s peace fill you and take away your anger. May the joy of God grant you compassion, grace wisdom and understanding.Please stay off the Republican cool aid. You sound drunk. Conservatives need to understand something. Never put your trust in men to provide security for you. Don’t do it. I did not trust Clinton (even though I liked him,) and I could trust Bushie. I just never bought into the white daddy myth he was publishing. Don’t even get me started on his supposed pastoral role for this country. I am glad he is not mine. In the end I think we all need to examine our own hearts and have faith in God over our love for our country. Look at Christ’s example. He loved Israel and his homeland but he never used that love to deny anyone else grace and love. maybe, just maybe this country’s christians should do the same. p



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Paul

posted March 18, 2007 at 12:22 pm


An example of why simplistic answers to a very complex problem do nothing but harm to all concerned. http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/18/world/middleeast/18insurgents.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&th&emc=th cheers, Paul



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Augustine

posted March 18, 2007 at 12:25 pm


Ezekiel 4: 12 And thou shalt eat it as barley cakes, and thou shalt bake it with dung that cometh out of man, in their sight. 13 And the Lord said, Even thus shall the children of Israel eat their defiled bread… Deuteronomy 21: 18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, 19 then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out 20 unto the elders of his city, and 21 all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die. The Book of Exodus clearly indicates that the fetus does not have the same legal status as a person (Chapter 21:22-23). That verse indicates that if a man pushes a pregnant woman and she then miscarries, he is required only to pay a fine. If the fetus were considered a full person, he would be punished more severely as though he had taken a life.



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Augustine

posted March 18, 2007 at 12:27 pm


Isaiah 13: 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished.



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Don

posted March 18, 2007 at 1:13 pm


Dave wrote: “Assume the US “ends the war” and leaves Iraq. What do you think is going to happen?” I think it’s also a fair question to ask what we are trying to accomplish by *staying* in Iraq. Besides trying to save their own faces, I don’t think the Bush folks really have an answer to that. Leaving or staying, the insurgency is just going to wait us out and then go at it after we’re gone. And if we stay, how many more Americans and innocent Iraqis will die and be maimed? They’re still talking about bringing democratic government to Iraq. What a joke. The Iraqis don’t want democracy (except maybe the Kurds–if they can have it independently). Face it: we can’t win there. (Well, we *could* gain a hollow victory of sorts by nuking the whole country or some other similar desperate measure, but I don’t need to say that would be a VERY bad idea.) We went in without enough troops to secure the country. That became obvious when they burned down the national library early on. In addition to unjust and immoral, the effort was incompetently managed. What we need to do is what Abraham Lincoln did in March 1863: call for a national day of fasting and *repentance.* We need individually to repent to our God for our self-righteousness and sin. Our nation’s leaders need to repent to the nation’s people for their foolish, arrogant actions. We need to engage in serious diplomacy with all of Iraq’s neighbors and come up with a workable plan that will allow our troops to come home. Then, we need to bring them out of harm’s way. Whatever then happens in Iraq will have to happen. A couple miscellaneous thoughts: Steph wrote: “Americans have to choose, are we going to fight this war over there or on American soil?” Of course, this has been an oft-repeated Bush rationale. I wonder, Steph, how the Iraqis feel about this rationale? How would we Americans feel if an enemy leader told his/her people that they had to fight the Americans on our soil so they wouldn’t have to fight us in their homeland? And justintime, while I agree with much of what you said about the manipulative Karl Rove, I have seen no evidence that truly supports the accusation of rigged elections. If you have such evidence from a trustworthy, non-biased source (Democratic operatives would not be non-biased), I would like to see it. I live in Ohio, where the 2004 election was decided, and while it’s convenient to think the election was rigged (Kerry was ahead in the polls right up to the election, and even some of the early exit polls had Kerry winning the state), Bush’s margin of victory here was too large to be seen as a result of fraud. Yes, some of the irregularities you mention did occur, like the long lines in Democratic districts. But nobody has demonstrated that these irregularities turned the election. Peace,



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Ms. Cynthia

posted March 18, 2007 at 1:43 pm


Dear Jim: Thank you for speaking to our fears. Remembering how long it took to extract our country from Vietnam during my youth not to mention the many sacrifices Americans made during the civil rights movement to change the world I live in, my emotions are torn between exasperation, despair and anxiety everytime those values are violated. It is as if the ghost of J.E. Hoover was brought to life so he could once again infiltrate the halls of government in Washington DC. Taught early in life to distrust power I struggle with my fears. What sort of world will our children have to face in the future.After some prayer I tried to concider what we should fear and not fear. We should not be afraid to: -speak the truth to power -defend those who suffer persecution -be in dialogue with our enemies – stand with the vulnerable and defenseless -confront deception -expose unfairness -support those who work and suffer for human dignity -protect the civil rights of even the most accused -sow justice rather than blame -endure ridicule and controversy-have compassion for & love the unlovely and despised -take the risk necessary to create the conditions for peace If There are some things we should fear, maybe they are: Avarice Ignorance Deceit & deception Censorship Arrogance Secrecy Slander Blackmail Exploitation Racism & chauvinism Unaccountability Unopposed power Greed Fraud HatePerhaps you will think of things I have not thought of. I welcome your suggestions. From Orange County, CA to DC I want to thank everyone who marched for peace this week end.



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Ms. Cynthia

posted March 18, 2007 at 1:44 pm


P.S. You give me courage and hope.



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RevPhat

posted March 18, 2007 at 2:36 pm


Especially during this season of Lent, the scriptures show clearly that Jesus came not with a conquering army, but with arms of love.



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justintime

posted March 18, 2007 at 4:58 pm


Don, Florida election 2000 fraud is much easier to prove than Ohio 2004, but since you’re from Ohio, I recommend this article: Was the 2004 Election Stolen? Republicans prevented more than 350,000 voters in Ohio from casting ballots or having their votes counted — enough to have put John Kerry in the White House. by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. One of my uncles, a lifelong Republican who also lives in Ohio, found this article convincing. I know you’ll say RFK Jr. is biased, but this is a well documented and comprehensive overview of 2004 Ohio election fraud by Republican operatives. Conservatives use bias as a talking point to dismiss any evidence that could possibly be presented. You won’t find any conservative sources willing to even look at evidence of election fraud by their own party. And this is such a contentious issue that you will have difficulty finding any sources whose bias won’t be challenged by conservatives. You’ll just have to do your own research and come to your own conclusions. My conclusion is that both elections were stolen and that our democracy is under assault by the corrupted Republican party. Many Americans believe the democratic process in America is so corrupted they don’t even bother to vote. .



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justintime

posted March 18, 2007 at 5:28 pm


For Don – and anyone interested, The link to RFK Jr’s article: Was the 2004 Election Stolen?: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen .



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 6:05 pm


“Assume the US “ends the war” and leaves Iraq. What do you think is going to happen? I don’t agree with much of what you have posted but I am genuinely curious about what you think.” Dave (great response, butch!) I ll defer to the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops for my response:Our nation cannot afford a shrill and shallow debate that distorts reality and reduces the options to cut and run versus stay the course. Instead we need a forthright discussion that begins with an honest assessment of the situation in Iraq and acknowledges both the mistakes that have been made and the signs of hope that have appeared. Most importantly, an honest assessment of our moral responsibilities toward Iraq should commit our nation to a policy of responsible transition . Our nation’s military forces should remain in Iraq only as long as it takes for a responsible transition, leaving sooner rather than later. Toward a Responsible Transition in Iraq, January 13, 2006 Bishop Thomas G. Wenski, Bishop of Orlando Chairman, USCCB Committee on International PolicyIf USCCB supports ending the military deployment at the earliest opportunity supporting just another version of cut and run ? No. USCCB recognizes that many Iraqis now see the presence of U.S. troops as part problem that fuels the insurgency. At the same time many Iraqis know that the U.S. simply leave without helping to establish greater security and political stability. If USCCB originally questioned the war, why doesn’t the Conference favor an immediate withdrawal? While USCCB and the Holy See raised grave moral concerns regarding the decision to invade Iraq, once the United States initiated military action it incurred new moral responsibilities toward the Iraqi people. As the primary occupying power in Iraq, the United States has both legal responsibilities under international law and moral responsibilities to help provide security, rebuild the country and establish the rule of law. This is why our nation cannot just look back.This is a three-page statement from the USCCB, I ve cut and pasted a few paragraphs. I invite you to read the rest of the document. (I m so glad I m Catholic!) http://www.usccb.org/comm/q%26airaqwar_revised.pdfChristians do not support the kinds of people that march in these peace apathy parades Donny Oh Donny, I should have recognized that post as one of yours before I got to the bottom. This is the arrogance of the religious right: you think you speak for all Christians and have the corner on the market of Biblical interpretation. New flash: You don t!Peace!



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 6:38 pm


Senate Democrats announce joint resolution to transition mission in Iraq. (March 8, 2007). US Fed News Service, including US State News: Senate Majority Leader Sen. Harry Reid today joined Assistant Democratic Leader Dick Durbin, Democratic Conference Vice Chairman Charles Schumer, Democratic Conference Secretary Patty Murray, Sen. Russ Feingold, and Sen. Evan Bayh to announce a new Joint Resolution to revise U.S. policy on Iraq. Iraq has fallen into a bloody civil war, and as conditions on the ground have changed so must U.S. policy change to meet them. The Reid Joint Resolution builds on the longstanding Democratic position on Iraq and the Levin-Reed Amendment: the current conflict in Iraq requires a political solution, Iraq must take responsibility for its own future, and our troops should not be policing a civil war. It contains binding language to direct the President to transition the mission for U.S. forces in Iraq and begin their phased redeployment within one-hundred twenty days with a goal of redeploying all combat forces by March 31, 2008. A limited number of troops would remain for the purposes of force protection, training and equipping Iraqi troops, and targeted counter-terror options. “The President’s strategy in Iraq is not working, and Congress must decide whether to follow his failed policies or whether to change course,” said Senator Reid. “Democrats believe, as does an overwhelming majority of the American people, that the time has come to transition the mission of U.S. forces in Iraq. Hopefully, Senate Republicans will now join Democrats and the American people in calling for a change in course. They must put doing the right thing above protecting the President.” “Democrats are united when it comes to changing our mission in Iraq,” said Senator Schumer. “What’s happened here is that Iraq has devolved into a Civil War. And that’s not what we bargained for. That’s why Democrats believe we should change the mission from policing a civil war to focusing on counter-terrorism. We want 2007 to be a year of transition. The focus should now be on our own plan to focus on counter-terrorism. Our goal is to ratchet-up the pressure on the President to change course.” “Democrats are united in our commitment to changing course in Iraq. We heard the American people and our military leaders. We heard our troops and their families. It’s time to plan to end a war that this Administration has failed to effectively prepare for and execute. I urge our Republican colleagues to stand united with us in changing course in Iraq,” Senator Murray said. Senate Republicans have twice blocked the Senate from even debating the President’s policies in Iraq and have given a green light to the President’s escalation plan. Last November, the American people made a clear call for a new direction, and Democrats are committed to bringing stability to Iraq and bringing our troops home from a civil war. Sen. Cardin comments on joint resolution to transition U.S. policy in Iraq. (March 8, 2007). US Fed News Service, including US State News: In response to the Joint Resolution introduced today by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV) to transition the United States’ policy on Iraq, Sen. Benjamin L. Cardin (D-MD) released the following statement of support: “As Iraq falls deeper into civil war and American soldiers continue to die on a daily basis, a change in course is long overdue. In order to bring about success in Iraq, we must transition the focus of our mission to diplomacy and start reducing our troop levels. This resolution achieves those objectives and I am proud to support it. “As the Iraq Study Group and even some of President Bush’s own military advisors have said, the Administration cannot end the violence in Iraq by simply increasing our military presence. It will take an escalation in American diplomacy, not an escalation in American troops. “Senate Republicans must stop using procedural roadblocks and allow this resolution to be debated and come to a final vote. Every U.S. Senator has a responsibility to make his or her position on the war known to the American people.” As a Member of the House of Representatives, Mr. Cardin voted against giving the President authority to invade Iraq in 2002. He has been a consistent critic of the Administration’s management of the war and has long called on the President to start reducing our troop levels and engaging the international community in Iraq’s reconstruction. That doesn’t sound like ‘cut and run’ to me. Peace!



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kevin s.

posted March 18, 2007 at 7:05 pm


“I don’t think Bush deliberately lied about WMDs. He, like much of the world, thought Saddam had them or was close to getting them. But Bush’s team did misuse the WMD issue to push for the invasion.” If you concede that Saddam was in position to garner wepaons of mass destruction (and I am not saying you did), what was the appropriate action? Even Jim Wallis believe he had to go (though he proposed a rather arbitrary, half-baked alternative to the action we did take).In light of 9/11, I don’t see how we could have simply abided a nation whose leader had already plotted to assasinate a U.S. president, and who was making every effort to attain WMDs, if he did not have them already.



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Donny

posted March 18, 2007 at 7:19 pm


Talk about voter fraud,I’ll bet that the Democrats don’t really recieve 80% of the votes that they “somehow” manage to get.I know so many decent people and not one of them believes in anything Democrat politicians once elected, try to force on the populace. The Democrats are so clearly anti-American and individual anti-freedom, they can’t possibly have many honest votes being cast for them. You take a look at the Jim Wallis-type religionist. Where could they possibly find a place for the nonsense they pass off as anything Christian? Congregations of marxist bobbleheads may indeed exist in Spain, Venezuela and Massachusetts, because they have to, but here in majority America there are too many solid Christians for the influence of Liberals and Progressives to be anything but dishonesty derived. What peace are these neo-libs ranting and raving for? Every victory they have won has served to further death of free people and the rise of godless communist and hedonist euro types. They represent Christianity how?



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HASH(0x11b8db3c)

posted March 18, 2007 at 8:00 pm


First, on this Lord’s Day, I pray for God’s blessings on all brothers and sisters in Christ–con, lib, prog–who frequent this blog. kevin s, “whose leader had already plotted to assasinate a U.S. president, and who was making every effort to attain WMDs, if he did not have them already.” Drop the “U.S.” from that sentence and you could be describing any U.S. presidential administration since Harry Truman’s. If international law is to mean anything, then one sovereign government has no business telling another sovereign government what kind of weapons it can and can’t have. But perhaps international law is an outmoded relic. That’s too bad. Conservative leaders such as Theodore Roosevelt, Elihu Root, and Herbert Hoover dreamed that an effective regime of international law might alleviate global anarchy.



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Carl Copas

posted March 18, 2007 at 8:01 pm


That last “Anonymous” was me. Don, you mention you live in Ohio. I grew up on a farm between Dayton and Cincinnati.



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Karissa

posted March 18, 2007 at 8:25 pm


Love each other. I believe that God is more upset by Christians spewing hate at each other than by anyone subscribing to a particular set of political ideologies. If we really want change in this world, either in American or in other countries, perhaps the place to start is in our own hearts–learning to treat others with love and respect, no matter what they believe.



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justintime

posted March 18, 2007 at 8:27 pm


Carl, My wife’s family farmed near Sandusky. My uncle, a retired Lutheran pastor, lives in Columbus. My father in law, retired Air Force chaplain, was stationed at Wright-Patterson for a number of years. .



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kevin s.

posted March 18, 2007 at 9:27 pm


“If international law is to mean anything, then one sovereign government has no business telling another sovereign government what kind of weapons it can and can’t have.” I don’t see why this is necessarily so. If we simply allow any nation to possess nuclear weapons, it’s a matter of time before we won’t have any international anything to worry about.



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Dave

posted March 18, 2007 at 9:44 pm


Butch and neuro_nurse,I think you are both assuming that I favor the war. I didn’t. I marched in the first and only protest of my life before the invasion.That said, as Colin Powell told Bush, ‘you break it you own it’. I don’t really know what the solution is and doubt that there is one. It is just that many of ‘Wallis and friends’ seem to assume if you just get everyone around a big table everything will be fine. Neither of you actually said what you think is going to happen. My prediction: An even bigger civil war.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 10:27 pm


“But Americans are still at considerable risk of losing our Democracy and our Constitutional rights.” Justine A big fear I have is that the Unitary (sp) president is such a huge grab for power that even if Democrats get the White House they will keep the power that comes with this idea. This idea came to the front with a Republican Congress and a Republican President. Now, lets say we have a Democratic President and Democratic Congress in a couple of years.I don’t want the executive to have anything that even sounds like a “unitary presidency”. Power is hard to give up once you have it.



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Carl Copas

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:22 pm


Justintime, thanks for the Buckeye family info. A number of people with whom I went to high school now work at Wright-Patterson Airforce Base. And my kid brother, who’s a TV news director in Toledo, lives near and has in-laws who reside in Sandusky. I have lived in northern California for a number of years, and have become so soft and warmblooded that I couldn’t take those Ohio winters!!



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Carl Copas

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:23 pm


kevins s: “I don’t see why this is necessarily so. If we simply allow any nation to possess nuclear weapons, it’s a matter of time before we won’t have any international anything to worry about.” I agree. So it would seem as though it’s time, again, to get serious about genuine nuclear disarmament via multilateral treaty that would involve on-site inspections (trust but verify). But few nations will cooperate if the United States doesn’t participate in a serious way. It’s too bad the current administration doesn’t take a page from Ronald Reagan, whom it professes to admire, and pursue disarmament. With a military budget larger than the rest of the world’s combined, surely the U.S. would be negotiating from a position of strength.



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:37 pm


In light of 9/11, I don’t see how we could have simply abided a nation whose leader had already plotted to assasinate a U.S. president, and who was making every effort to attain WMDs, if he did not have them already. kevin s. Before I finished the first sentence I knew it was the resident Republi-nazi apologist! Coulda shoulda I’m not sure maybe he did but well we had to do something so lets try shock and awe”, somebody has to die or we’ll look weak. How can we abide Saddam, we can t find Bin Laden so lets go kick some islamist butt, that s right we re bad. Kevin you will say absolutely anything!



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butch

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:40 pm


perhaps the place to start is in our own hearts–learning to treat others with love and respect, no matter what they believe. Karissa When people die it does matter what people believe.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:41 pm


Dave, I believe the two items I posted this morning address the very issue you brought up. No, the U.S. should not ‘cut and run,’ we made the mess, now it’s time to clean it up and go home. It would be immoral to leave the country in the state of chaos we created that is, one that has created the circumstances that has allowed or even promoted the civil war. To answer your question directly, yes, the civil war in Iraq would escalate. Let s not assume however that just because one is opposed to the war in Iraq that she or he is in favor of complete withdrawal without restoration of the infrastructure and civil order that is a right wing diversion from discussing options other than staying the course, or a troop surge. I doubt you could find many Democrats in Congress would support that proposition. Please see the statements I posted above. Donny, It seems obvious to me that you are unwilling to participate in a dialog with other who do not share your views, even to defend you inflammatory statements. Consider these two readings from scripture, and then I want to ask you a question: “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. Matthew 5:43-45Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ. Ephesians 4:15 Donny, do you love me? Would you greet me with a holy kiss? (I hope you don t mind getting scratched by my beard. My wife likes my beard, so I won t shave it off for you) Do you love homosexuals, Iraqis, liberals/progressives/Democrats, and people who live in poverty? Does your charity extend beyond people who think like you or to those who are in a different socioeconomic status that you? Can you speak truth with love? Or do those questions turn your stomach? I don t expect you to answer, but I love you anyway! Peace, and God bless you!



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neuro_nurse

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:45 pm


Carl & justintime, My Dad is an engineer and worked at Wright-Patterson in the mid 70s (before we moved to Iran). We lived in Dayton. I carried the Dayton Daily News. Justintime, our paths cross once again. One of these days we’ll have that cup of coffee together. I’m looking forward to it!



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mark

posted March 18, 2007 at 11:48 pm


Doug says, talking about Jesus,: “The first time he came to die. The next time he comes it will be as king with an iron fist.” Well, Doug, if your interpretation of scripture on the second point turns out to be correct (and until then it _is_ no more than interpretation*), then I will be prepared to fight under him when he returns. Until then, I prefer to stick with the historical record of Jesus in scripture; and I want to live the way of (amongst other things) nonviolence** that he both modelled and taught a couple of millenia ago: Luke 9:23-25 Luke 17:33 Matt 5:9-10 Matt 5:21-26 Matt 5:38-48 Rom 8:37-39 Rom 12:20-21 Matt 26:51-53 Phil 2:5-11 Eph 6:12 1 John 4:16-21 Zech 4:6 Mic 4:3-4 (and numerous others) Mark * an interpretation which I suspect results from the choice of a dispensationalist grid for understanding scripture – a choice with which I disagree for several reasons. ** Definition of nonviolence from Ron Sider: “an activist confrontation with evil that respects the personhood even of the enemy and therefore seeks both to end the oppression and reconcile the enemy”



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Doug

posted March 19, 2007 at 1:11 am


MarkYou must be a catholic. Have you ever heard of the book of revelation. No wonder you are so easily fooled. The anti-christ will come as a pacifist. That is how he will entice others to follow him. Jesus was clearly not a pacifist. Read the old testiment.



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HASH(0x11b9884c)

posted March 19, 2007 at 1:16 am


Donny, my beloved brother, From one sinner to another, allow me to speak God s truth to you in love: “You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, ‘Raca,(an Aramaic term of contempt)’ is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:21-22You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Romans 2:1So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall! 1 Corinthians 10:12For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1:8-10Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. 1 John 9-11Brothers, do not slander one another. Anyone who speaks against his brother or judges him speaks against the law and judges it. When you judge the law, you are not keeping it, but sitting in judgment on it. There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you who are you to judge your neighbor? James 4:11-12 Your brother and fellow member of the body of Christ,



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 1:23 am


Donny, I didn’t mean to post that as anonymous. Mark, I’m Catholic, and yes, we are very familiar to the book of Revelation, but please enlighten me as to where in Revelation it says that the antichrist will come as a pacifist.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 2:13 am


Pardon me, Doug, I’ve been going through my concordance trying to find a verse in Revelation that vaguely resembles the claim you made about the antichrist coming as a pacifist without success. Please, chapter & verse.



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 2:22 am


Well, all you current and former Ohioans, greetings from central Ohio! I live in the Columbus metro area, but I am originally from northeast Ohio–Medina County. And we lived in Bowling Green for two decades, so we are familiar with Toledo. Carl, what station does your brother work for? And justintime, thanks for the info on possible voter fraud here. I’ll check into it. And what’s your uncle’s name? We’re Lutherans. Mark: I’m not Catholic, but you might want to take a look at Carl Olsen’s “Will Catholics Be ‘Left Behind’?” Catholics are not ignorant of Revelation, but I do suspect their interpretation differs from yours. And I never heard that antichrist would come as a pacifist, either.



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 2:35 am


Oops. The comment about Carl Olson’s book should be directed to Doug, not Mark. Sorry.



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justintime

posted March 19, 2007 at 3:42 am


March 18, 2003: Barbara Bush tells Diane Sawyer on ABC s Good Morning America that she will not watch televised coverage of the war: Why should we hear about body bags and deaths, and how many, what day it s going to happen, and how many this or what do you suppose? Or, I mean, it s, it s not relevant. So, why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?” .



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 3:54 am


While Catholics do believe in the parousia, we do not accept the doctrine of the rapture. (I doubt the Left Behind books sold well among Catholics. BTW, my wife, who is a Baptist and has read some of the Left Behind books, and I talked about the comment Doug made that the antichrist would come as a pacifist and it sounds as if that idea came from Tim LaHaye, not John of Patmos) The Book of Revelation is part of the Catholic Canon, and much of our liturgy is taken from it. Catholics understand it to be highly symbolic, and much of it deals with the persecution of Christians under Imperial Rome. In my experience, Catholics don t spend a lot of time talking about eschatology. Our concern is how to live for the Kingdom of God. My father-in-law, a Baptist pastor, when asked if he is a Premillennialist or Postmillennialist, will say he s a Panmillennialist, because he believes it will all pan out in the end.



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 3:59 am


justintime, Are you open to a bit of feedback on the demonstration/arrests? cheers, Paul



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justintime

posted March 19, 2007 at 4:11 am


Paul, Yes. Not much in the media. Would like to read transcripts of the service at the National Cathedral – can’t find anything. Were you there? .



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 4:59 am


justintime, No, I wasn’t there. Just a bit of my background, so perhaps you will understand where I am coming from. I have been arrested for protesting for human rights. It was in Red Square on May 1, 1973. I was also involved in a demonstration to make a point to the Russian Ambassador when he visited our city. I am also a retired peace officer, and during the course of my duties have had occasion to deal with a number of protesters, though they were protesting in support of their environmental views. My thoughts are these. Why did the demonstraters need to deliberately flaunt the terms under which the permit had been granted? Were the strictures so onerous that they represented a serious infringment on the rights of the demonstrators? As I understand it the tactical reason is to force the police to do something so as to attract media attention. Correct me if I am wrong here. If I am correct, then this is really nothing more than a media stunt. What impact do you think it had on the police who were forced to do their duty? Do you think it raised their estimation as to the validity of the cause, and the integrity of the participants? I strongly suspect that it did nothing but diminish the credibility of the protestors, except in the eyes of those seeking to deliberately provoke a situation with people who are not their enemies. I would suggest that such stunts do nothing to further your cause, and do much more harm to your case, than any good a bit of media exposure might provide. I am honestly not trying to throw stones here. If I simply wanted your cause to fail, I would keep my mouth shut and allow people such as this to continue making fools of themselves and diminish their case at their own hand. For what little it is worth. cheers, Paul



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Ms. Cynthia

posted March 19, 2007 at 5:06 am


Yes. we need to get as many parties involved around the table talking. No. It will not magically solve all the problems. Things WILL get worse if we don’t provide as many parties as possible in dialogue. That’s the best motivation for doing it. There will still be extremist in the region but they will not have the power over the situation they have now. if you give more moderate parties in the region hope that their issues will be addressed. It will offer a forum where cooler heads can exercise the voices of reason. The average man on the street has to believe that someone is working on an alternative. The longer we discourage getting this process underway the more difficult it will be to get things started as the number of people afflicted in the conflict increases with velosity. It is not fair to future generations of either hemisphere to keep avoiding the work that needs to be done for conflict resolution. No. It still won’t be a picnic, but it sure beats the alternatives.



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 5:09 am


because he believes it will all pan out in the end. neuro_nurse Who knows the number of days, can’t do anything except in the present and I may not finish this post. Doesn’t trouble me but I don’t think this is the place to quote the bible. Study on your own time and come here with you with your action or what do you want to do or think should be done. Act now on you best understanding then go back and study some more for tomorrow s challenges. I believe that God calls us to act where he put us in the real world.



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Deryll

posted March 19, 2007 at 5:39 am


[If I simply wanted your cause to fail, I would keep my mouth shut and allow people such as this to continue making fools of themselves and diminish their case at their own hand. For what little it is worth.] MLK and the civil rights movement made an impact by being nonviolent. It was then that the true foolishness was brought to light. The way to peace is not via the sword. 9-11 did not cause the US to become nonviolent and the US’s violent reaction has not caused the fanatics to cease. Rather each escalation seems to help the other side gain sympathy and more followers. “Love your enemies and pray for your persecutors.” And thus heap ‘coals of fire’ on their heads.



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Doug

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:12 am


Mark I do not have a bible handy right now with an old testiment in it but I was mistaken about what I said about revelation earlier. The passage I am refering to about the anti-christ being a pacifist is in the book of Daniel. It talks about how he will control the ten kings who control the ten kingdoms of the world. Now he will do that by getting everybody to lay down there weapons. The ten kings will willingly hand over their weapons to him. That way no one will be able to defend themselves and be subject to the anti-christ’s control. Remember the devil is a liar so he will decieve people into thinking he is a pacifist when he is really not. Being a real pacifist would deafeat his purpose. That is what I should have said earlier. The exact verses I am not sure of because again it is not in front of me at the moment. Have a blessed day.



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Donny

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:48 am


neuro_nurse, I am delighted that you know who and what the enemies of Christians are.Now save them snatching some from the very fires of hell. Jude wrote an entire book (letter) denouncing everything the Progressives present, from their unholiness in their Gay Agenda to their other godless goal of Marxist control of the United States. Do you notice the same thing I do about the lacking of consistency in Jim Wallis? He is great at railing against Republicans and trying to change America into a socialist communist country run by Humanists . . . but why does he NOT write things like this? It is true:ISLAM, FROM A CHRISTIAN POINT OF VIEW, IS MORALLY WRONG – AND WAS FROM THE VERY START. This is why the Progressives are the spawn of Satan and have only a garb of the New Testament wrapped around them. To do what people like Jim Wallis actually do to Christians in a Christian labeled suit is reprehensible.Now go quote something from Jude. Now quote what a marriage IS to Jesus. Never to be changed by “man.” I love my enemies. The ones you listed so accurately.



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:02 am


Mark I do not have a bible handy right now with an old testiment in it but I was mistaken about what I said about revelation earlier. The passage I am refering to about the anti-christ being a pacifist is in the book of Daniel. Doug So, what do you suggest today or tomorrow at the latest?



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:17 am


Doug, Do you suggest we kill our enemies now so we don’t fall into the devil’s trap. Of course we don’t know who our enemies are until they act unless you can know anothers heart. So, do we wait for them to attack then kill them or do we just kill any suspects knowing that we will get it right sometimes. Since there is “just war”, right? If we attack and kill someone who is not in fact our enemy will God forgive us for killing or will he know our heart and know we would not have killed any of these suspected enemies if we had known they weren’t our enemies. So, do we go to war tomorrow to keep the devil at bay?



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mark

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:04 am


Doug – Actually, no, I’m not a Catholic, though I have gained from the fellowship of Catholic brothers and sisters, and from several strands of Catholic spirituality. If I have to pin myself down to one tradition, I’m a Mennonite. I have read both Daniel and Revelation several times, and I believe God has given me some understanding of both books, though I’m sure there is much more for Him to teach me from them. I assume from your message that you’re referring to Daniel 7 (the prophet’s vision of the four beasts and the ten horns). But in neither of the two translations that I regularly use do I find any reference to the giving up of weapons, let alone anything that could be remotely interpreted as disapproval of pacifism. Nor do I find any reference to the antichrist – that title occurs in scripture only in 1 John 4:3 and 2 John 7, where the apostle is combatting the spiritual deception of gnosticism. The Daniel passage speaks to me of the authority of God – it is God, and not any human agency, that judges and destroys the evil empires alluded to in Daniel’s symbolism. And your post served to challenge me to not lay down the weapons that God has given me – these are listed in Ephesians 6:10-18, and are vastly more powerful than any weapons of physical warfare. Physical weapons can maim or destroy the body, and they can elicit fear, but that is all they can do. Whereas the spiritual weapons which God gives to His people bring life. They are fuelled by His love, which casts out all fear, and which seeks to redeem sinners rather than destroy them. I pray that God will build your faith and mine, that we may be more conscious of His power and His love. Mark



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mark

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:12 am


Donny: “Jude wrote an entire book (letter) denouncing …[the] other godless goal of Marxist control of the United States.” That’s news to me… even after having just read the letter from beginning to end twice. Mark



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Donny

posted March 19, 2007 at 1:19 pm


Mark, You’re kidding right? Jude 1:4 sounds exactly like what Progressives have actually done to the Christian community.1:12,13, and 14, sound like Jude talking to Liberals of today. There is nothing “redeeming” (literally) about the Jim Wallisites, these Progressives, that are gaining the world while encouraging people to discard their souls. Jude in 1:21, is thunderous to a Christian. We are not to embrace the world’s ways, we are to keep away from it. How can a Progressive pray that God allows them to enslave and debauch people from kindergarten to the grave? Should we love Progressives and other heretical people? Yes. But as Jude warns us: And you must show mercy to those whose faith is wavering. Rescue others by snatching them from the flames of judgment. Show mercy to still others, BUT DO SO WITH GREAT CAUTION, hating the sins that contaminate their lives. 1:22,23. (Or as the NIV so incredibly accurately puts it: . . . show mercy, mixed with fear – hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.) That is such a telling indictment of todays modern Liberal/Progressive religionist, where “anything goes,” except for purity and morality.Just look at what is going on in Europe, where “Progressive and Liberal” ideology has taken control of the populace, and see where Jude was speaking through the ages to the Christians. Warning them about the exact things happening today, in the guise of Christian community, many have wormed their way into the Church for one purpose and that being the corruption of the faith delivered only once to the saints. Of course we could go through the warnings of Peter, James, John and Paul about the Progressives of today as well. We already know what Liberals and Progressives think about the teachings of Jesus: They are to be adjusted from time to time. Although no “Christian” in the New Testament agrees with that.



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 2:34 pm


Jude 4: 4For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. Once again, Donny asserts that Jim Wallis and other so-called “progressives” are practicing and teaching heresy, with no evidence to support this assertion. Donny has been asked before to give evidence that Jim Wallis believes and teaches doctrines that are counter to revealed Christian truths: the Holy Trinity , the Incarnation, the Resurrection, etc. and Donny has refused to do this. Donny, simply reasserting your claim that Wallis and his friends are wolves in sheeps’ clothing repeatedly ad nauseum does not prove it. You must give us evidence to support your assertion. Do you think that if you simply repeat it enough times, eventually we’ll have to believe it? Give us *examples* of statements or writings by Jim Wallis, or of some other so-called “progressive evangelical,” which clearly indicate that he or she rejects these fundamental doctrines. If you cannot do that, please stop troubling the readers of this blog with your unsupported claim. And please recognize that one’s position on political issues does not by itself tell us where one stands in his or her relationship to God. Several people on this blog have tried to reach out to you in Christian love and friendship. Are you unable to recognize the hand of Christ in these offers of friendship? Please think about these things. Peace,



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Pacific231

posted March 19, 2007 at 2:43 pm


Don: excellent post. I commend you for trying to appeal to Donny’s sense of decency. It’s a small target, but I commend you for trying to hit it. ;)



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Carl Copas

posted March 19, 2007 at 5:47 pm


Don, my brother works for NBC 24, WNWO. On a different matter, most people who post on this blog operate in good faith. But you are wasting your time trying to reason with Donny. Neuro-nurse, I love your father-in-law’s term “Panmillenialist.” I will appropriate it for my vocabulary, with proper attribution of course! Butch, I am having great difficulty grasping your point in recent posts. I say this in love; you are edging into rants. Paul, I honor your service as a police officer. What incident were you referring to in your post about the antiwar rally?



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HASH(0x117efb14)

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:03 pm


Carl: I know. I guess I had to give it one more try, though. Maybe someone on this blog (or perhaps elsewhere) can break through Donny’s shell someday. Later,



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:04 pm


Carl–the previous post was I again. D



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moderatelad

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:08 pm


So – as I read Jim’s article. If I am one that supports the war on terror – when it comes to faith I must be a heretic. I don’t think that St. Augustine had any idea about what we are facing in the 21st century…he might think a little differently about his opinion on ‘just war’. Jim is thinking with a western-mind-set and as long as he does – he will not understand what is going on with the Islamic terrorists in the world. I am not advocating an ‘eye for an eye’ but I am supporting containment.Later – .



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justintime

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:16 pm


Donny is a ‘hit and run’ poster and a troll on this site. He’s not much interested in constructive dialogue. Until he comes up with a useful idea, I would just ignore him. He’s not worth your time. .



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 6:31 pm


moderatlad: One of the points many have been trying to make is that the war in Iraq is not really part of the “war on terror.” Or at least is wasn’t at the time of the invasion four years ago. The war in Iraq was deceitfully sold to the American people as part of the fight against terrorism. But that was just an excuse. (And now, of course, we’ve succeeded in making Iraq a haven for terrorists, when it wasn’t before March 2003.) The real military fight against 9/11 terrorism was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. That’s where Osama bin Laden was given safe haven by the Taliban government there. That’s where–or somewhere close to there–bin Laden and Taliban leader Muhammad Omar are still holed up, presumably. And that’s where, if you’ve been keeping track of things, the Taliban recently has been reusurgent, in no small part because we virtually abandoned the *real* fight against Al Qaida/Taliban-supported terrorism in order to divert our attention to the bogus effort in Iraq. A war that was sold to us through deceit; a cause (dealing with Saddam Hussein) that could have and should have been dealt with in a non-military way; an unjust preemptive invasion of a nation that violated the major tenents of just war; a war that caused the US to lose sight of the real objectives–to bring the perpetrators of the 9/11 atrocity to justice; these I believe are the reasons Jim Wallis calls this a matter of faith. I don’t know if Wallis is a true pacifist or not, but it should be obvious that many of us who felt that the invasion of Iraq was unjust and immoral are not all pacifists. Many of us believe that our government’s actions in Afghanistan were necessary and just overall. But even supporters of just war believe that warfare, even if sometimes necessary, is always unfortunate. Peace,



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:05 pm


Donny, Thank you for responding to my post. I have nothing against conservatism; I m married to a conservative. I love her very much, and we have both benefited from considering each others perspective. I am convinced however, that the Republican Party has been hijacked by people who claim to be standard-bearers of Christianity, but whose agenda is nothing more than greed and American Imperialism in a thin disguise. Aside from the divisive arguments about gay marriage and abortion, neither of which I, as a progressive, favor, I see nothing antithetical to Christianity in liberalism. Quite the opposite. I do not see Islam as a threat either to Christian faith or our country. While there have been some serious missteps in the remote and recent past, the Catholic Church is working to open both ecumenical and interreligious dialog. http://www.usccb.org/seia/history.shtml I have a great deal more to say about these issues, and I m not spending any effort arguing these points for the very reason Carl Copas stated above. You stated you believe liberal/progressives resemble the men of Sodom more than the followers of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. My friend, I believe you are the one who does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him 1 John 2:11, the darkness being your xenophobia and prejudice. Remember what Ezekiel said, “Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy (16:49) and ask yourself how you respond to the needs of others.Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to him, “Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed,” but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. James 2:15-17 On another thread you wrote, “Help of the poor?” Any of you “Christians” over at Sojournes/Christian Alliance for Progress, ever thought to evangelize these people away from the excessive life (obese poor are ubiquitous in the US), of unwed mathers, unhealthy eating and drug selling, errrr, I mean drug addiction? Ever vocalized disdain for the terms Pimp, Player and Baby Momma/Babby Daddy? How about looking at the truth for a change huh? (sic) I spent a great deal of effort responding to that post to demonstrate that your prejudices about poor people in this country are anything but the truth. I suggest that statements like those demonstrate an uncharitable and un-Christian nature that is, contempt, not love. If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world. James 1:26-27 The attitude you demonstrate towards those who have not had the privileges and opportunities you have had is one that reveals pollution by the world. It is not godly. Stop pointing your finger at progressives and calling us the enemy. God has called me and others progressives/liberals who post here to works of service. You and I may disagree about what needs to be done for God s Kingdom, but as Paul said, God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it, so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other. If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it. Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 1 Corinthians 12:24-27If any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. James 1:5 In my private prayers and in my devotions with my wife I pray every day for God s wisdom. The wisdom I receive from his word is that I should have a heart open to love others, to look for opportunities to serve others, and to always restrain myself from passing judgment on others.The wisdom I receive from the Lord is that I should actively look for the good in others. Having spent a considerable amount of time in Muslim countries (one year 1978 in Iran, several months hitch hiking in North Africa, and a year in Ethiopia, which is about 45% Christian the first country in Africa to become Christian and 45% Muslim), it is not difficult at all for me to find the good in my Muslim sisters and brothers. I heard someone say recently that a bird can t fly without a right wing and a left wing. How much greater would our service for the Lord be if we worked together? Again, that you for responding to my post. I appreciate the opportunity to have a dialog with you. Peace, and God bless you



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Karissa

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:14 pm


When people die it does matter what people believe. butch Of course it matters. But only in the political sense. Jesus calls us to treat others with love and respect, all political beliefs aside. We can criticize or question others’ philosophies, but where is the Biblical basis for resorting to namecalling or snide remarks? Treating each other in this way, especially between those who say they are Christians, undermines the effect of the church and creates division, preventing any real change from occurring.



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:17 pm


Don, Have you seen this: http://newsbusters.org/node/10626 cheers, Paul



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Don

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:29 pm


Paul: No, but I’ll check it out when I get the chance. However, I must say that the byline for this blog (“Exposing and combatting liberal media bias”) doesn’t give me much hope for objectivity here. Later,



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:30 pm


Carl Copas, Thank you for the kind thought. One clarification, however. I was a Peace Officer, which encompasses a number of duties, but in my case refers to being a Correctional Officer, or in my particular case a Senior Correctional Officer, and I spent most of my time in maximum security settings. My intent was not to mislead, but to avoid the false stereotypes that many have of people, and yes, contrary to popular opinion, we are people, about us. On more than one occasion I have encountered “Oh you’re just a F___ing prison guard” or “How many inmates did you beat up today?” In the later case, I bit my tongue but thought to myself, well, in my whole career, I never have, but in your case, I might make an exception… The event I was refering to was:justintime | 03.17.07 – 10:00 am | post. If you are interested, sometime, I can tell you about the frustration I have with pseudo-dissidents, which was part of the motivation behind my post. cheers, Paul



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kevin s.

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:39 pm


“When people die it does matter what people believe.” If government doesn’t fix a pothole, somone might die. If they fix the pothole, but the construction causes an accident, someone might die. Further, if the money is taken from another, more necessary project, someone my die. None of this is a reason not to accord respect in a discussion about what to do about potholes.



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kevin s.

posted March 19, 2007 at 7:39 pm


I know, I know, Butch. Typical Republi-Nazi diversion. Kevin wants to talk about potholes when lives are on the line. Yadda, yadda…



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 9:55 pm


Don, Hmm, what is that saying about books and covers???-) cheers, Paul



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Carl Copas

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:23 pm


Paul, thank you for the explanation. Unfortunately, the world needs prisons, and prisons need COs. It’s good to know that there are Christian COs out there. Your thoughts on “pseudo-dissidents” would be welcome–please share. Are you familiar with civil disobedience as a tactic in protest? That might be why over 200 people deliberately broke the rules to get arrested this past Friday night.



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moderatelad

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:28 pm


Don | 03.19.07 – 12:36 pm | #This place loves to split hairs and will hold conservatives to a higher standard than a liberal. Common Ground – nice idea but not here. I have for the sake of discussion conceded a point to the liberals on an issue with the idea that they could concede one to me so that we are making our way to the middle. The other side never give in they just move on to another area of the issue. Personally as a conservative – I hate war…no one wins. I supported Clinton going into the Bulkins even though it does not even come close to the ‘just war BS’ as much as Iraq does. Clinton was hailed as a hero – we are still in the Bulkins people…only the Blue Helmets are letting the other side beat the %^&* out of the christians. I believe that Bush could do a 180 on every issue that is talked about on this site and the liberals would still whip the crap out of him. THERE IS NO MIDDLE GROUND! I too am praying for the end of the war in Iraq, but I am praying that we prevail and bring peace, not that we loose so that we can blame the republic-nazis’ and Bush. Then – once we are out of the war in the mid-east…I’ll be hanged if I will support any action, civilian or military, around the world. We can protect our shores and the rest of the world can go to hell. DARFUR – why is Wallis yelling at Bush to do something about it. He seems to love the UN and feel they are the only ones that do it right. Yell at them – let them get off their backside and do something constructive other than talk. The Jawjacking time is over UN – DO SOMETHING – NOW! Wallis is a pacifist from what I read…he talks a good game but ‘push to shove’ I believe he would pail in a UN-heartbeat. Later- .



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Paul

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:28 pm


Carl Copas, I am up to my proberbials again so won’t be able to get back to you on the pseudo dissidents for a while. As I mentioned, being arrested in Russia in the early 70′s for protesting for human rights has informed my view of current north american practice. . . And it is not a positive one. More later, if you are still interested. cheers, Paul



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:32 pm


Physical weapons can maim or destroy the body, and they can elicit fear, but that is all they can do.” Mark I know I take this out of context somewhat but killing, maiming and scaring my loved ones is really important.



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:42 pm


Butch, I am having great difficulty grasping your point in recent posts. I say this in love; you are edging into rants.” Carl Yes, sorry! I get so frustrated will the poor theology and thinking that just want to scream. Example; if there is a reference about the devil being a pacifist does not say we should bomb the b-jesus out of anyone?



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:49 pm


When people die it does matter what people believe. butch karissa in response “especially between those who say they are Christians, undermines the effect of the church and creates division, preventing any real change from occurring.” Butch I want to create a clear division and anyone who wants to kill or maim should be hospitalized of imprisoned. They can attend church there.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:52 pm


Dear Donny, “Now save them snatching some from the very fires of hell.” How would you propose I go about doing so? Both currently and in the past my wife and I have lived next door to a gay couple. I have to admit that I still have some remnant of the homophobia into which I was enculturated in my formative years. For the most part, I have a casual acquaintance with my neighbors, but being a city boy, I tend to value my privacy as well as presumptively respect the privacy of other gay or straight. My wife (remember, conservative, Baptist pastor s daughter) has been much more outgoing in our relationships with our neighbors. She has demonstrated unconditional acceptance for them and continues to make friendly gesture at every opportunity she can. Now, our approach is to show positive regard for our neighbors without judgment. The way we see it, as well as the Christian parents we know who have gay children (church elders, missionaries in Africa), it is not our place to judge them. Would you recommend that I knock on my neighbor s door with a Bible in my hand and tell them that their lifestyle is an abomination? It seems to me that doing so would only engender animosity between us and close the door on any further dialog. Besides, this apartment is ideal for us, and we don t want to move. We d like to remain on good terms with our neighbors. This is not hypothetical; this is a real-world chance to apply Christian beliefs and values. You seem to me to be rather sheltered. You can hold your beliefs about other people who are different from you because you don t know anyone outside of your social circle. You wrote, I know so many decent people and not one of them believes in anything Democrat politicians once elected, try to force on the populace. Does that mean you don t know any liberals/Democrats/progressives? Do you actually know any homosexuals, Muslims, or poor people? Are you what my father-in-law calls a China-hutch Christian, one who s standards are so high and looks so nice, but no, no, don t touch, we don t want to get dirty, so they stay on the shelf, as opposed to everyday Christians who are out there among people, who might get dirty and a little chipped around the edges, but who actually serve the Lord? What would Donny do? Sincerely, Not afraid to get his hands dirty in New Orleans



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neuro_nurse

posted March 19, 2007 at 10:57 pm


moderatelad What do you perceive as the ‘middle ground,’ and how, as far as the war in Iraq is concerned, are liberals not yielding to it? From my perspective, the position of liberals/Democrats has been misrepresented by the right to make it look like you are giving ground and liberals are refusing to concede. Do you even know what the Democratic position on Iraq is? I ll give you a clue: it s NOT cut and run.



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justintime

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:01 pm


Paul, My hat’s off to you for getting arrested in Red Square in 1973. I’d like to hear about that. About the same time you got arrested I became active in the Peace movement, got involved in teach-ins and marched in anti war demonstrations, never got arrested, but did lose an academic position when I went ‘over the top’ with zeal. After the war ended we started our family and stayed on the sidelines for decades after that. Working in downtown Seattle, I had a ringside seat for the 1999 World Trade Organization protest – my daughter marched along with 50-70,000 others. WTO 1999 was tarnished by anarchist violence and the resultant police riot, ending in ‘peace officers’ storming a residential neighborhood with tear gas, rubber bullets and billies. The vast majority of the marchers were appalled at the anarchist violence and tried to stop them but they were surprisingly well organized and succeeded in spooking the peace officers. The Police overreacted with the entire crowd targeted as ‘enemy’. The TV media also misidentified the enemy and reported from behind police lines. There were several days of conflict in downtown Seattle, the police chief lost his job and the mayor lost the next election over their incompetence in handling the initial violence. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WTO_Ministerial_Conference_of_1999_protest_activity But what me back into political activism was watching the Bushies steal the Presidency in 2000. My wife and I marched in the same streets of Seattle on Bush’s fraudulent inaguration day. I wore my businessman’s costume, carried an American flag and a sign reading “Supreme Court Corrupted – Treason”. It’s annoying to serious demonstrators when a minority turns the protest into a circus or baits the police and creates a riot. I had about the same reaction as Don when I visited the Newsbusters site that you linked. Let me suggest you visit the Media Matters site for a fair and balanced assessment of the news from outside the Republican echo chamber: http://mediamatters.org/ .



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:31 pm


If government doesn’t fix a pothole, somone might die. If they fix the pothole, but the construction causes an accident, someone might die. Further, if the money is taken from another, more necessary project, someone my die. None of this is a reason not to accord respect in a discussion about what to do about potholes. kevin s. | Homepage | 03.19.07 – 12:44 pm | # I know, I know, Butch. Typical Republi-Nazi diversion. Kevin wants to talk about potholes when lives are on the line. Yadda, yadda… kevin s I know you know which is what bothers me. Now comes Republi-nazi Kevin with “potholes” while we discuss getting out of a war! You were trying to dodge your own mistake because you knew what was coming so you say my words and you don’t look so bad. Not Yadda, Yadda… it is Die, Die…



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kevin s.

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:34 pm


Justintime, Media Matters acknowledges that it is progressive. It is ridiculous to assert that it in some way represents a moderate viewpoint.



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:41 pm


Media Matters acknowledges that it is progressive. It is ridiculous to assert that it in some way represents a moderate viewpoint. kevin s.Doesn’ matter, is “Media Matters” accurate?



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moderatelad

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:45 pm


neuro_nurse | 03.19.07 – 4:02 pm | #I have not sought middle ground on the Iraq (war on terrorism) issue as there are too many opinions on what needs to be done. Liberals vary from Impeach Bush to Cut and Run John Murtha. The ‘Iraq War’ has so divided us in the US. Liberals do not believe that there is a ‘war on terrorism’ as many of the articles and people that post here affirm. Wallis and Augustine seem to be the only ones that are allowed to define what ‘war’ should or should not be. So – I see that ‘bad people’ that cause ‘innocent, defenseless people harm’ should not be allowed to continue on with their mayhem. I see that Saddam was bad and killed hundreds of thousands of his own and other people. Many of the people on this site see Saddam and Bush in the same light. Hitler and Bush in their minds are cousins. I, because of my conservative believes am a Nazi or worse. You think that there is any middle ground to be found? The only middle ground that they want to see is the six feet that would be between us with them on top and me in a box, six feet under. Wallis seems to take great pride in challenging the Dobson s, Kennedy s and Grahams of the faith. They are not apposed to what he has to say – they just see it differently. (No diversity in the Christian faith Mr. Wallis…?) The discord that Wallis has caused among the fellowship grieves me, and what is more important I truly believe that he does not care! As long as it gets him into the spot-light, on the radio or TV…the end justifies the means. Now – he has accused the others of doing this and it was in his ‘opinion – not right to do’. But he is advancing his agenda doing the same thing that he has condemned – you figure. He is a Clinton-Kerry liberal masking as a moderate-middle of the road person. Jim – be all that you want to be. Celebrate your liberal views and ideals! You have thrown quite a few stones and some of them very large – now don’t be surprised when and if they come back to break a few windows in your glass house.No – there is no middle ground to be found here. Understanding is more important the agreement but there needs to be respect too. So this ‘republic Nazi’ is still looking for that one person that wants to have a nice, respectful discussion without the labels. Later – .



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butch

posted March 19, 2007 at 11:58 pm


So this ‘republic Nazi’ is still looking for that one person that wants to have a nice, respectful discussion without the labels. moderatelad Since you accept the title Republi-Nazi can you think outside the second self assumed label of conservative. You spoke of many things Wallis is doing and thinks. Can you support your feelings with specifics?



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Donny

posted March 20, 2007 at 12:12 am


neuro_nurse, I lived in the big cities of LA (10-years), San Diego (10-plus years and San Jose (10-years). I work with the poor and needy “professionally.” I have come to my “opinion” about progressives and Liberals by experiencing the shattered lives of those poor people. Directly caused by what Libs and Progs implement on society. Hollywood values so to speak.My gay neighbors are still my friends and know that I will not alter the Bible or the truth of God for their personal tastes.I do not alter the Bible’s plain truth to excuse away my faults and errors. What Progressives do (as I do not believe they are Christians) is to encourage others to sin.Jesus said “Offenses will come, but woe to the person who brings those offenses.” Love the sinner hate the sin.Progressives and Liberals that make a cliam to be Christian, will not try to convert others to a Biblical form of salvation. You cannot stiil practice your sins and not repent and claim to be in the faith as a working member. Sorry, but when you read Jude, he is speaking about the kinds of people like Jim Wallis that worm their way into the Church but are inwardly (and outwardly) evil. How are Progressive Christians” any different from the world of non-Christians? They aren’t. The Apostle Paul would try to convert Muslims. Progresives do not think, believe or act, like the Christians that brought us the Church with their blood. How am I wrong? Peter and Paul did not protest in comfy cities.



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A. Conservative

posted March 20, 2007 at 12:24 am


Dear Mr. and Mrs Iraqi, The people that want to see you slaughtered like the people in the Killing Fields set up after American soldiers left Vietnam, are called Liberals and Progressives now. They were called Hippies back in the Vietnam era, and they are almost always Liberals and Democrats. We Conservatives wanted you to be free and live life as you wanted to.Democrats are a political party much like the Jihadists in your country. Death means nothing to these people. I wish they weren’t so uncaring about you all, but these people encourage the killing of unborn children for the convenience of the women that don’t really care to have a baby, and the men that care nothing about the women they have sexual intercourse with. So as you can see, you Iraqi’s and your children, are never going to be cared about by these people here in America called Democrats and I have even more bad news. They have the majority in our political system now. Good Luck.A.C.



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Don

posted March 20, 2007 at 1:05 am


A.C.: Talk about ad hominems!And a broad, overgeneralization! “How are ‘Progressive Christians’ any different from the world of non-Christians?” You tell us, Donny. We’re still waiting for examples and proof. Peace,



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HASH(0x116cfa2c)

posted March 20, 2007 at 1:30 am


Donny, Thank you for your candor. I m going to turn the question around and ask, how am I wrong? Since you volunteered an ample amount of information about yourself, allow me to do the same. I am a Christian. I am also a liberal. I could very easily make that case that I am a liberal because I am a Christian, but let me go into a little detail about who I am and how I am serving our Lord. I ve been a nurse for 15 years. Much of that time I have worked in county hospitals where I cared for the indigent population. I became a nurse in answer to God s call for me to work in Africa. I spent a year volunteering (that is, without pay, and I make a pretty decent living as a nurse) in Ethiopia. I am currently working on a masters in public health so that I can return to Africa in the Lord s service. I regret that because I am both in school and working to pay the rent, I do not have time to be involved in volunteer work. Before I left Seattle I completed lay ministry training at my church and volunteer in a jail ministry. I also volunteered with the Red Cross in New Orleans and went out to house fires to do damage assessment and provide vouchers for people whose homes and belonging were destroyed. I have to admit that I was very nervous the first time I responded to a fire in the projects, but I found that the people I visited were very kind and very happy to see me, even though I could not give them anything. I found the opposite to be true when I responded to fires in wealthier neighborhoods where I was basically told to get lost. These are not my works, they are the work of the Lord through me. Therefore, as it is written: “Let him who boasts boast in the Lord 1 Corinthians 1:31Progressives and Liberals that make a cliam to be Christian, will not try to convert others to a Biblical form of salvation. (sic) I ll defer to the pope on that one:Charity, furthermore, cannot be used as a means of engaging in what is nowadays considered proselytism. Love is free; it is not practised as a way of achieving other ends. But this does not mean that charitable activity must somehow leave God and Christ aside. For it is always concerned with the whole man. Often the deepest cause of suffering is the very absence of God. Those who practise charity in the Church’s name will never seek to impose the Church’s faith upon others. They realize that a pure and generous love is the best witness to the God in whom we believe and by whom we are driven to love. A Christian knows when it is time to speak of God and when it is better to say nothing and to let love alone speak. Deus Caritas Est, Benedict XVI, http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.htmlYou cannot stiil practice your sins and not repent and claim to be in the faith as a working member. (sic) Pardon me Donny, but the scriptures clearly state that you are just as much as a sinner as I am, and who are to question my repentance? I am very well aware of my sins, and I confess them to our Lord, ask his forgiveness, and ask for his wisdom and strength to avoid them in the future.My gay neighbors are still my friends and know that I will not alter the Bible or the truth of God for their personal tastes.Where in anything that I wrote did I suggest that my wife and I do otherwise?The Apostle Paul would try to convert Muslims Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all have gifts of healing? 1 Corinthians 12:28-30It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, to prepare God’s people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up. Ephesians 4:11-12 God has made it very clear to me what gifts He has given me and how I am to use them. Is your gift evangelism? Great! I m glad to hear it. God has given me the the ability to help others, and I use it to the best of my ability.Not many of you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly. James 3:1 As Dirty Harry said at the end of Magnum Force, A man s got to know his limitations. Progresives do not think, believe or act, like the Christians that brought us the Church with their blood. (sic) That is an extremely broad generalization and by definition, a prejudice, and a very inaccurate one at that.You and I may disagree, but my relationship with the Lord is between Him and me and is NOT FOR YOU TO JUDGE the scriptures say that very clearly! Please refer back to the scriptures I cited for you in previous posts. You are overstepping your bounds and assuming you are equal to God. Once again, I thank you for your candor and your response to my post. In Christ,



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neuro_nurse

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:05 am


Dear Mr. & Mrs. Iraq, Please pardon the post from A.C., who seems to be completely oblivious of the Project for the New American Century, whose members, many of whom are now members of the bush administration, have been calling for the invasion of your country for a decade or more. The Project for the New American Century advocates Pax Americana, which is nothing more than American Imperialism and has nothing to do with their stated goals of Democratization. You are the victim of neo-con greed. The last thing in the world the neo-cons want to see is a democratic Iraq. Look what happened in Iran back in 1953! Sorry Donny, the last post was not intended to be anonymous



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butch

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:15 am


“You are overstepping your bounds and assuming you are equal to God.” I think this the single biggest mistake of those who profess christianity. Where is there room for anyone between me and God.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:22 am


moderatelad, I have never, nor will I, use the term, ‘republic Nazi.’ Can we have an adult discussion without these broad generalizations about what the other person is or believes? By doing so you and others both liberal and conservative are stifling productive debate. It is hypocrisy to on the one hand say that liberals refuse to concede to make way to the middle ground, and in the next breath say there is no middle ground. I am appalled by the stubborn extremists on both sides who refuse to allow a meaningful dialog to take place.



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butch

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:28 am


Or how do you know what God’s plan is for me and my life. The war or budget is different, we are acting in concert.



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 5:06 am


butch | 03.19.07 – 5:03 pm | #Go do something to yourself – you are the last one that I believe can have an honest civic discussion without labeling – that is what you do so well isn’t it Butch. Much later – .



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 5:44 am


neuro_nurse | 03.19.07 – 7:27 pm | #Would love to talk as I am not an extreme conservative on most subjects.Item – I conceded that on the abortion issue that I could give up the first trimester if they would give up the last trimester. We would not make the ‘abortion issue’ the main issue. Not one person that was in support of abortion or did not want it to be the ‘issue’ would even dialog with me when I made the concession. There is middle ground – me six feet under in a box.I am in support of many issues that others on this site support – some for different reasons but because I am not on the Al Gore Band-wagon for environmentalism – I am dismissed. In order for me to be accepted I have to agree with bashing Dobson – Kennedy and Graham like the other authors that write articles for Sojo. Dobson Bad – Wallis Good. Sojo has convinced me that a significant percentage (not a majority by any means) of the US population does not have the guts to do what it takes to stop bad people from causing problems. It is reading Sojo that has caused me to become isolationists and gave me the conviction to let Darfur go to hell as we will never agree on what should be done. Sojo seemed to believe that the UN is morally better than the US – fine. Let the UN deal with the Darfurs of the world. I am a conservative and proud of it. I am an evangelical and proud of that too. I understand that if you can change the heart of the person and show them an Almighty God and a Loving Jesus that the world will be a better place. I place more importance on the Soul of one person than I do on that one individual and their concept of the environment. To open to them the plan of Salvation will always take priority over talking to them about what they are doing to God’s creation. But I know that by introducing them to a Creator God will make them better at the latter.So if you want me to join in and play the guitar and sing Kum By Ya as terrorist are gathering about and making plans to end our way of life – sorry, won’t do that. But if you want to work together on some issues that we can see a common goal and then allow the other to peruse different endeavors individually – now we can come together. I am no better than anyone else on this site – but I’ll be $%^& if I am going to let anyone (not you – you have been respectful) label me or any others.Blessings on all – .



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Melissa

posted March 20, 2007 at 6:26 am


Who ever claimed that this war was in the name of Jesus Christ? And who decided that the Bible is the President’s guide to leadership? And even if there is an answer to that, who threw out the Old Testament? I believe that this war should be ended, and quite frankly that it never should have started…. BUT I am sick and tired, seriously SICK AND TIRED of Christians standing up and quoting Scripture and chewing out conservatives and talking about everything that is wrong without giving any answers, any solutions. I am sick and tired of Christians showing up on Sundays, singing some praise songs, listening to a sermon, praying, and maybe going out to lunch, and then going back to their lives, with our health care plans and clean water and dentists and rights and not modeling the life of community and authenticity and compassion and justice that God desires the Church to look like. We really can get to solutions, if anyone cares to move past blame. And I am not talking about “pull out the troops” or “cut the budget” or “negotiate with terrorists” I am talking about real life solutions that will actually make a difference in a broken and devastated world. I’m ready, anyone want to join me?



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Deryll

posted March 20, 2007 at 7:49 am


[There is middle ground - me six feet under in a box.] [I am a conservative and proud of it.] Well, “not” so moderateLad, the tone of your rants makes it difficult to believe “you want to work together on some issues that we can see a common goal”. That difficulty makes me tend to not take you seriously. Accusing “everyone”, that disagrees with you, of wanting you to be “six feet under” doesn’t sound like one wanting to work together.Frankly I don’t want to give in on any of the trimesters; abortion in any of the trimesters ends the life of a human individual. I’m opposed. I’ve, in the past ten or so years, lost most of the deep respect I once had for Dobson. I agree more with Wallis; but I don’t consider him a God. I believe Jesus meant it when he said, “Be perfect in the manner which the Father is perfect.” That we should: 1)Love our enemies, 2)Pray for our persecutors, 3)Offer the other cheek, 4)Go the second mile. In other words “not retaliate at all”. I guess I believe that Jesus instructs his followers to not retaliate with condemnations after being “labeled.”The message of pentecost is, I believe, that when one is led by the spirit; one goes to the world to communicate (in ways that they understand) the gospel. To me, that doesn’t mean isolate oneself, defend “my” things, and let the rest “go to hell.” To communicate with the world one must learn their language and understand their perspective.”We” in the US accuse Iran of wanting nuclear weapons. “They” accuse “us” of wanting to keep them from developing their country; which for them includes peaceful nuclear power. We don’t trust each other. We remember the take-over of our embassy. They remember the over-throw of their government in ’53, the support for the dictator Shaw, that we assisted Iraq during the eight year war. “They” diferentiate greatly between the American people and the American government; not totally realizing that in our “republic” the people are, to an extent, the government. We don’t understand each other, and we won’t communicate until we learn to know/understand each other.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:04 pm


moderatelad, Thanks for your response. You made some good points and I’d really like to continue this discussion, but it’s spring break and my wife and I are getting out of town for a few days. Peace!



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:31 pm


neuro_nurse | 03.20.07 – 8:09 am | #Haave a great time with the wife and catch you later. .



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 2:53 pm


Deryll | 03.20.07 – 1:54 am | #1)Love our enemies, has nothing to do with allowing them to kill you or your family. 2)Pray for our persecutors, yes – but you do not have to stay there and let them keep on with their persecution. 3)Offer the other cheek, OK, but you are allowed to leave or at least step out of reach. 4)Go the second mile. but you don’t have to keep caring the load for the 6th – 7th and 8th mile. I am more than willing to let them (Islamists) practice their faith and live life the way they want to – as long as their will offer the same to others. They have proven that they do not respect other religions on the world. They are out there with a vision of world domination at any cost. You can be a pacifist if you like. I will not. My Lord calls me to assist the widow and orphan and to protect the weak. You can lay down and allow the enemy to walk over you, kill you and move onto others. I will be the one behind you ready to dispatch them to Allah.Have a great life…



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 3:11 pm


Deryll | 03.20.07 – 1:54 am | #“They” differentiate greatly between the American people and the American government; not totally realizing that in our “republic” the people are, to an extent, the government. They know about us and they do not care to get to know us. They believe that a ‘republic’ is wrong and it should be a theocracy under Islamic Law. They execute young women for having sex prior to marriage because of the ‘shame’ she brought on the family.They Hate our lifestyle, they Hate our way of government and they Hate our religion.Also the students that took over the embassy are now running the country – you’re right…we should talk with them – they really respect International Law – NOT! Later – .



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HASH(0x11e2f18c)

posted March 20, 2007 at 6:05 pm


[Also the students that took over the embassy are now running the country - you're right...we should talk with them - they really respect International Law - NOT!] Are you saying that “we” in the US do respect international law? or That Jesus was/is wrong?[They Hate our lifestyle, they Hate our way of government and they Hate our religion.] I believe that you and I disapprove of much of the lifestyle here in the “west” as well. But you sound as though you hate them and are ready to “dispatch them”. Seems that “we” and “they” are much the same. [My Lord calls me to assist the widow and orphan and to protect the weak.] My Lord also said that if I only love those that love me; then I am the same as the rest of the world. That there is nothing credible for that. Rather than be conformed to the world; we are to be transformed. We fallable human “Christians” do seem to find all kinds of excuses for not following Christ.



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Deryll

posted March 20, 2007 at 6:08 pm


Anonymous 12:10 pm Thats me!



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squeaky

posted March 20, 2007 at 6:32 pm


Moderatelad–your arguments would have more merit if WMDs would have actually been found in Iraq and the connections between Hussein and Bin Laden were proven…sadly, neither is the case. Your arguments would have more merit if we actually had gone there to free the Iraqi people. Sadly, we did not. Someone mentioned the Project for a New American Century. Go to their website. It is clear what they are about, and I wish the dots between their agenda and the Iraqi war weren’t so close together, but they are, and I can’t help but to connect them when they are right on top of each other. Don’t underestimate the pull of oil in this conflict. Iraq has a lot of it, and we want to have control over oil in that region, because we don’t. The Saudis do. We look the other way on a lot of human rights violations in Saudi Arabia to keep the Saudis happy so they don’t withdraw their oil from our SUV’s. If the Iraq war is about human rights, then we need to be consistent and boycot Saudi oil because of their human rights abuse. Not gonna happen. The war is about oil because our economy is so entrenched in an oil economy, without it, it would collapse. The war is, sadly, not about defending our freedoms from the Islamic tyranny, and it is not about freeing the Iraqi people or fighting for the rights of women. I wish it were. I really do. But it isn’t.



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 6:36 pm


Deryll | 03.20.07 – 12:13 pm | #they really respect International Law – NOT!] name the last embassy that the US has attacked and taken they nationals working there hostage in Washington DC? Seems that “we” and “they” are much the same. No – there is a lot that the west is tolerant about when it comes to lifestyle that I do not support – but I am not out there killing my fellow man for what I see as ‘sins’ they are committing. You know what – I think you are correct. Let’s just stop the war, bring the troops home. Destroy all weapons that we have so that they whole world will know that we only want to ‘love’ them. Then we can line up and just wait for them to come over and shoot us on sight. We can just dig a trench and fall in after they have put a bullet in our head or severed our head from the rest of the body. They can start in New York and end in LA.Later – .



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 7:36 pm


squeaky | 03.20.07 – 12:37 pm | #I wish that this type of conflict could be as surgical and exact and you require. If I held the same standards on WWII as you do with the war in Iraq – we would have never gone to war. Just because the WMD’s were not there does not mean that they were never there. Saddam threatened us with there use just a month prior to the beginning of the conflict. Briton – France and Russia said that they had WMD’s. Being wrong on the Intel does not make one a lair. I know that you can not connect the dots – I can. Just because there is not a ‘paper trail’ like we discovered at the end of WWI – WWII etc. does not mean that they did not coordinate efforts. This war is not defined by borders but more by ideology. Sunnis are together no matter what country they reside. This is why I will not support any action in the future. We (the US) have no stomach for armed conflict and we should stay home. The ‘proportional’ garbage when it comes to war in the 21st century is Bull. They hit you with 1x, you retaliate with 3x. Hurt them so that they will not think about doing it again. It is war – not hop-scotch. Later – .



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Deryll

posted March 20, 2007 at 8:56 pm


[The 'proportional' garbage when it comes to war in the 21st century is Bull. They hit you with 1x, you retaliate with 3x. Hurt them so that they will not think about doing it again.] Ah, Yes! The Hollywood approach.Note: 1) Buy it. 2) Shock and Awe. 3) Dictate/Power The three temptations rejected by Jesus.



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moderatelad

posted March 20, 2007 at 10:54 pm


Deryll | 03.20.07 – 3:01 pm | #Are you one that believes that this is a ‘religious war’? I do not see this as a war of Islam against the Christians. It is a war of ideologies, the desire of one entity to rule the world. Of a group that is willing to cause terror around the world at any cost to advance their agenda. Now – are we going to allow them to fulfill their vision unopposed?We will gladly stay home and play with our children if they will do the same.Please enlighten me as to how we convince them to live in peace with the rest of the world. To practice their faith openly without limitations and allow other religions to do the same in their area of the world. Later – .



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HASH(0x11e3479c)

posted March 21, 2007 at 3:29 am


lad So, you see “them” as wanting to rule the world? Specificaly, which them are you talking about. Iraq? Saddam? Shia? Suni? All Muslums? Iran? I don’t believe you are completely correct. and we (the US and our business interests) are quite involved “over there”. (Just try to get the oil barrons to follow your “we will gladly stay home” suggestion.) (Also I could introduce you to some native Americans who wish my grandparents would have stayed home) (Pardon the rabbit trail.) Right or wrong, “they” see the US/West as the “one entity” which desires to rule the world. Wrongly, “they” see terror as the only way to strike back at the big bully (in their eyes) which has invaded their space, profited at their expense from their oil, refuse to let them (Iran) modernize, disenfranchised their cousins (palestinians), etc. From here, we, of course see it much differently. I don’t even see the war as an ideology struggle. I believe it to be a money and power struggle. I see “crazies” using religion, patriotism and ideology to get “band wagon” support. Here in the US we hear those who say, We may have our diferences; but while at war we should all forget those differences and support the war. “They” use the same tactics. Where do you come up with the belief that Sojo writers believe the UN to be more moral than the US? The US has lost much “credibility” in the world. The UN has more, in some peoples eyes. The UN operates as a big committee. Committies are inefficient and slow, but often less likely to go off halfed cocked; except when the band wagon gets rolling.Scripture says, “There are none righteous” and “All have sinned”.



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moderatelad

posted March 21, 2007 at 3:03 pm


Anonymous | 03.20.07 – 9:34 pm | #OK – so the big bad US goes into a country or region and starts to do business in that area and everyone makes money. No – it is not always handled the best, and many US companies lost a lot of money when the countries of the Mideast nationalized the oil companies and took control away from the owners.When have we (the US) taken our army into a country to take it over so that our industry can get in there and do business? What countries have we established a ‘US puppet gov’t’ so that we can dictate to them what to do. Kuwait has it own gov’t that we helped reestablish, Germany and Japan have their own gov’t.Sojo has written about the UN being more moral than the US. (their favorite issues is Bush Bashing) So I am saying ‘fine – let the UN do the work’. (might I remind you of the ‘food for oil’ and other scandals that have been part of the UN) Palestinians… Jordan killed about 20,000+ in the 50′s Syria killed about 7,000+ in the 70′s Egypt – Lebanon don’t want them in their countries. Sounds like a family feud to me – no one wants their cousins in their house. Radical fractions of Islam are causing mayhem all around the world. Do you think that they might be a little more organized than we give them credit for? Do you think that there might be a vision that they are focused on achieving? Later – .



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Payshun

posted March 22, 2007 at 7:49 am


Moderatelad, I think they are becoming more organized again. I think they were decentralized after 9/11 and now due to negligence are becoming stronger again. I don’t think they are as organized as we would like to think considering most of their leadership is dead but I also think they don’t need to be to cause this country harm. p



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Karissa

posted March 22, 2007 at 9:10 am


“American is not the hope of the earth and the light of the world, Jesus Christ is!” –Jim Wallis The belief that America needs to spread its “light” of democracy (please don’t get me wrong, democracy is wonderful–although America is not even a true democracy, but that’s another issue) around the world has caused the death of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and thousands of American soldiers. This is not an isolated case. Research the history of the CIA, which has assassinated numerous leaders of nations, many of them ruling in peace and harmony. In fact, the CIA is widely reported to be responsible for the 1963 coup in Iraq which led to the installation of Saddam Hussein. America has a history of arrogance and deceit and loves nothing more than to use its power to promote its agenda throughout the world, no matter what acts of violence and upheaval are necessary to do so.



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moderatelad

posted March 22, 2007 at 3:06 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 03.22.07 – 1:54 am | #most of their leadership is dead If this is the case – I believe that the world is in more trouble as many of the ‘radical nuts’ will try to take leadership or will just do what they want to since there is no leadership. later – .



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Plowshear

posted March 27, 2007 at 10:15 pm


Here’s the thing. I’ve heard the American people cry out that this war doesn’t need to be fought; United States is there for oil, the arrest of Saddam Hussein, and to wave the American flag over the skies of the Middle East. I’m not surprised – the American people said the same thing during the Gulf War. If I remember correctly, on September 11th, 2001 after the attack on U. S. soil, the American people ASKED for blood. I even remember people wanted to turn the land of Afghanistan into “one big parking lot”. Our presence there for the past 6 years almost, is the nation of the United States saying, “Attacks on our land will not stand, and we WILL go after those who WILLINGLY oppose us.” Religion in union with government has been a battle ever since the start of our great nation; “Religion will not govern us, for we all don’t have the same religion”, and “Our moral belief is what started our nation.” As long as people across the Earth suffer from the fruits of the flesh (Galatians 5 : 19 – 21), we will always have war, and that’s unfortunate. But I do believe that if you belive this war to be anythign else other than justice of man, then you should go to the tears of the men an women who have lost lives in the attack, and stand over the graves of those lost and say, “I don’t care about those dead.”



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Elizabeth Daniele

posted December 18, 2007 at 11:26 am


Dear Mr. Wallis,
Thank you for your article, “A Call to Repentance” -to read it was like clear water in a very cloudy glass.
I believe this war is this generations greatest sin- or I am truly a liar or insane.
It wasn’t the loss of our flesh that Jesus spoke to fear the most- but both our flesh and soul.
The greatest insult to God isn’t from those who have chosen not to belong to him- but of those who claim they are his,
teach others, and have perverted His Word.
What is the greater sin?
The one who has killed or the one who thinks of killing?
God has always been the same. But when Jesus came, a new gift was given- in an already existing plan- known from the
beginning. And it did change the fabric- because God stays correct and balanced, causing confusion for some between the
God of the OT and NT. But they were the same. Salvation through repentance. It was offered to all- not some. And when we
preemptively take it upon ourselves to truncate that gift from another where do we lift ourselves to and who do we foolishly
challenge? It is why Jesus spoke to love our enemies- and why the crusades failed. Through God’s blessing and balance-
it would have been impossible.
May God have mercy on us.
Elizabeth Daniele



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