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Flunking Sainthood

Flunking Sainthood

Why Are Mormons the Third-Most-Hated Religious Group in America?

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Everyone is talking about the sociology of religion doorstopper American Grace by David Campbell and Bowling Alone author Robert D. Putnam. I read it this summer and am re-reading parts of it now. It’s a great book that will be fodder for several future blog posts about various demographic trends in American religion. The question I want to consider today is how much Mormons are still hated, despite the strong assimilationist trends of the last sixty years.

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Islam tops the list as the most-disliked religion in America, which is not surprising; Buddhism comes in second, which is. The researchers felt that Buddhists scored so low because few Americans actually know a Buddhist (or realize that they already know a Buddhist). However, the researchers then note that Jews, who are also a distinct minority, came out on top in terms of how other religious groups regard them, so small size does not totally explain unpopularity.

The bottom line for Mormons, the authors say? “Mormons like everyone else, while almost everyone else dislikes Mormons.” The only fellow religious group to give Mormons a “net positive” rating was the Jews. (This is interesting, considering the anger many Jews have expressed about Holocaust baptisms, a detail the authors don’t discuss. And incidentally, check out this great new Mormon-Jewish blog at J Weekly.)

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Three key findings:

Evangelicals don’t like us. In 2008, when Mitt Romney was running for president, “the same percentage of Americans told pollsters they would not vote for a Mormon presidential candidate as had said the same about a Catholic candidate in 1960.” Even worse news for Romney: those numbers had not improved since his dad ran for president forty years before. Among evangelicals, more than half said they would have a problem with a Mormon being president, and only 46% reported having a positive image of Mormons.

Secular Americans don’t like us. Unaffiliated Americans–the rapidly growing population that claims no religion–dislike Mormons even more than evangelicals. Only 45% of those surveyed reported having a warm feeling toward the Latter-day Saints.

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We really, really like ourselves. Mormons ranked highest in “in-group attachment,” a finding the researchers felt was surprising, especially since three of the other groups that made the top five–Jews, Catholics, and Black Protestants–have their bonds cemented by a shared ethnicity. About 85% of Mormons say they feel a great warmth toward their own tribe.

The key to future acceptance and understanding, the authors suggest, lies in what they call “bridging”: assimilation into the broader culture. It’s easier to hate and demonize a “they” that lives primarily in Utah, goes to Mormon-dominant universities, and stays within its own religious enclave of friends and family. What breaks down religious barriers is personal contact at work, school, and neighborhood gatherings. This is why the LDS Church’s new “And I’m a Mormon” PR campaign is a fine idea, insofar as it goes.

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But according to sociologist Armand Mauss, Mormons have already been on a basic trajectory of assimilation for more than sixty years, so the answer clearly isn’t merely building personal bridges. Despite such bridges, Mormons remain universally disliked. It’s partly about theology; evangelicals are still upset about some Mormon teachings. But it’s also likely about conservative politics and same-sex marriage, two issues where the religiously unaffiliated come down on the opposite side of most Latter-day Saints.

I’ve blogged before about why I wish the LDS Church would reconsider its stance on homosexuality, so I won’t belabor that point here. And if the Church does ever reconsider, I hope it will do so because of the justice demands of Christian theology, and not the popularity whims of a sociological survey.

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But here’s something that all Mormons can do, and it doesn’t involve politics: it would help if we stopped regarding ourselves as the finest people on the planet. We ought to take a long, hard look at the fact that we voted our own group tops in this research. It’s one thing to be proud of our religious group and its teachings, but it’s another thing entirely to communicate, as many Mormons seem to, that we feel we have a monopoly on religious truth and strong families. A dose of humility is in order here.

  • kenneth

    If it makes you feel any better, I hate Catholicism and most stripes of evangelicals more…..

  • Grumpy Old Person

    Why are the Mormons “hated”? (Not that I agree, but …)
    Could it possibly haved something to do with Prop H8?
    In fact, why do people of any religion feel they have the right to butt into other people’s lives so very much in America?

  • http://annmjohnson.wordpress.com Course Correction

    I have been surprised recently when asking non-Mormon friends for feedback on a novel I’m writing with a Mormon setting. My novel is not of the “faith-promoting” genre,but when I’ve pressed for honest feedback, most tell me they would not read a book about Mormons unless the Mormon characters solve their problems by leaving their church. These friends who have lived in Utah see absoltely nothing positive about Mormonism.

  • http://www.faithpromotingrumor.com/2010/12/the-feeling-thermometer-or-everyone-dislikes-mormons/ BHodges

    I’m all for doses of humility. It should also be pointed out that Mormons ranked very high in acknowledging truth in other religions (although the survey didn’t delve into what sorts of things Mormons saw as true in other religions). Mormons ranked highest (IIRC) in regarding their religion as *the* true religion, but also highest in regarding everyone else as likely to be ultimately “saved” for lack of a more Mormon word.
    I think some Mormons might look at the numbers and feel like they are strongly disliked because they have the truth, that is, that opposition is evidence of truth. So in that regard, here’s my little sermon. It bears repeating that criticism of the Church does not validate its truth claims. Granted, the feeling that one is right based on evidence of opposition from others isn’t confined to Mormons, it has been embraced in various contexts by various parties. Further, Church teachings “oppose” various things but this opposition isn’t considered evidence of the “truth” of those things.
    While I believe that truth can be (and perhaps often is) opposed loudly, I don’t view opposition in and of itself as proof for truth. Else, whenever I openly or strongly opposed something I would only be confirming its truth. Perhaps most importantly, to read opposition as a confirmation of truth can lead to overlooking ones own part in eliciting negative feedback.

  • http://www.jillcarroll.com Dr. Jill Carroll

    Interesting piece and research.
    One explanation offered by one of my colleagues at Boston University is the phenomenon he calls the fear of the “near Other”. In short, it’s easier to feel ok about or tolerant of people who believe completely differently than you than it is to be ok with those who believe very much like you on most points of doctrine, EXCEPT for one or two main points. Hence, they are “other” but “near” to your views – and this creates anxiety, fear, etc. It counts, in Freudian terms, as a form of the “uncanny”.
    So – evangelical Christians see Mormons as the “near Other” – conservative, family oriented, traditional values, scripture based, using Jesus language, etc. – BUT – different views of Jesus, different scriptures, etc.
    It’s the same in the Muslim community with the mainline Sunni or Shi’ite groups, on the one hand, with the Bahai or the Amadiyya on the other – very similar, but on one or two main issues they diverge.
    Anyway……I’ve always found this phenomenon interesting and able to explain perhaps one piece of the puzzle (certainly not all of it).

  • nnmns

    I suspect JC’s post has come close to the mark. Evangelicals and others may see Mormonism as more of a threat because they look and act so much like “Christians” but are not. And of course they proselytize; only Christians are supposed to be able to proselytize, and then definitely not to one’s own group of Christians!
    A reason to fear them is the power they showed on the Prop 8 issue, and the stance they took. Obviously they are willing to take rights away from other Americans and to put money and effort into doing so. That is not being good Americans, though it’s way too common for groups of Americans to do it.

  • Jana Riess

    Dr. Jill — yes, that is it exactly. I have no analysis or sociological research to back up this idea of the danger of the “near other,” but here is a great joke I heard that rings totally true:
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2005/sep/29/comedy.religion

  • http://ckbigelow.blogspot.com Christopher Bigelow

    Another possible reason, from a believing Mormon perspective, is that the devil and his ilk are certainly turning hearts and minds against Mormons whenever and however possible. All humans are subject to evil suggestion, and many choose to believe and act upon false ideas fed to them through whatever channel, whether through other people or through spiritual impressions from demonic sources.

  • Martin Crapo

    Let’s begin with fact: There are more Mormons outside the US (let alone Utah) than are in the US. Let’s continue with debate: Christianity does not demand acceptance of Same sex Marriage. Mormons love their Homosexual Brothers and Sisters. To not accept same sex marriage is not to not tolerate Homosexuals. Partisanship in society is in essence the dialog. We don’t all have to agree on everything to love one another. No one has ever answered sufficiently my question, that is why were most of us born with sex-determining plumbing and features? Are we not all here (in part) to pro-create? I know, we would all like to think that we are all here just for fun and recreation. Fun is good; pro-creation, is essential.

  • Raymond Takashi Swenson

    Another way to look at the data is to conclude that more Mormons (as a percentage) have adopted the teaching of Christ to love not only their friends but also their enemies, while many other people in society, including those who claim to be exemplary Christians, have failed in following the teachings of the Christ.
    I recall that a coouple of years ago, when it was reported that the Southern Baptist Convention had lost net membership over a year’s time, a leader of the SBC quoted in the Atlanta newspaper offered as an explanation that Baptists have a reputation for being judgmental of others, and the SBC had to overcome that handicap if it wanted to reestablish itself on a growth trend.
    Is it thus possible that the fact that Mormons are held in such low esteem by their Christian brothers and sisters means that many of those Christians are falling down in meeting one of the criteria that Christ established for his chosen people: that they treat each person, even the least, as if they were Christ.

  • nnmns

    Interesting that RTS here complains about people not loving Mormons but has no problem with Mormons not loving homosexuals.
    As for the procreation red herring, lots of people marry without procreating and lots of married people raise their children and stop procreating and no one tells them to divorce. But it’s ok to tell homosexuals they can’t marry with the excuse they aren’t procreating.
    Hypocrisy all around. Historically marriage was about managing and retaining wealth, and homosexuals have that need as much as anyone. And with society’s rules marriage is about health care availability and other things homosexuals need as much as anyone. And marriage is handy for procreation but even more it’s handy for a committed relationship. And homosexuals need those as much as anyone.
    So to deny marriage to homosexuals is a sign of hate, not love.

  • http://larryogan.com Larry Ogan

    In my experience most people I meet have a good impression of the Mormons they have interacted with in their past. They appreciate our friendliness, helpfulness and commitment to family. But, when it comes to our doctrine and beliefs they are usually not interested in engaging in that discussion. Above, the lists of most hated religions reads Islam, Buddhism and Mormons not Mormonism. Leaving Utah out of the mix with their peculiar culture, is it our belief system or us as a people that are hated? Should the list read Muslims, Buddhist and Mormons? I do agree that our humility can be problematic with phrases like “the only true church” comment. I prefer “We have the fullness of the Gospel”. By expressing that idea we do not deny their Truth and President Hinckley once said this opens the avenue to offer to provide them additional information to add to their Truth. Anyone who is believer in any religion and has taken the time to actually read the Book of Mormon usually find no fault in its content. They seem to take exception to the gold plates and Joseph Smith’s revelations. Who knows what revelations will come from God in the near future but I’m ever hopeful.

  • http://www.bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com grego

    Why?
    1. It’s polarizing–in what it is, what it stands for, and in those who live accordingly. No fornication, no adultery, no alcohol, no coffee, tithing… (Anything else fun that can’t be done without breaking God’s commandment?) In contrast, as my Jewish friend basically said about most Jews, “God doesn’t have to do much with our lives, and especially any commandments. We are our own gods.”
    2. Ministers and religions actively rail against it, most likely because it’s one of the very few churches that has missionaries, especially called ones, that actively convert others. I’ve heard this a few times from second-hand witnesses and seen it on fliers, just in our area.
    3. It’s unknown.
    4. It has some interesting things in its history that are not boring and not far removed from the general public (for example, compare “Blacks and the priesthood” vs. “burning someone at the stake for being a witch”, or “blood atonement” vs. “foreordination in Calvanism”, or “men on the moon” vs. “transubstantiation”, etc.)
    5. It’s easy and in vogue to laugh at/ mock/ etc., especially after #1, #2, #3, and #4.
    6. It’s surprisingly… uncomfortable because… good, nice, seemingly smart people believe it and it might actually… be true.
    7. And yet, sometimes those people seem very irrational and not together in the way they believe and live it (not exactly the Christ-like life for some), and/ or different than what *others* imagine a Christ-like life *should* be like for many (homosexuality, etc.).
    Unfortunately for most at this time, all that means “bad”.
    Is it because LDS believe they are the true church, the true religion? Um, don’t about all religions/ churches believe that?? If that’s not it, what else is it about “we are the true church” that’s the problem? I’d be interested in knowing. Perhaps there is a condescending feeling, a threatened feeling, or a “no need to tell everyone” feeling involved?
    -=
    But seriously… how rigorous is the “most-disliked religion” survey? Buddhists (Kung Fu with David Carradine, Karate Kid, Bullet Proof, 2012, Dalai Lama, all the well-behaved Asian principal roll students, etc.) beat out Jehovah’s Witnesses, televangelists, Mormons, etc.??!! That’s a big bite for me to swallow…

  • nnmns

    Yes, televangelists should be atop anyone’s list of People We’d Be Better Off Without.

  • http://latterdaymainstreet.com Hellmut

    I am not sure that building personal bridges will help. Didn’t Gary Lawrence find that the better Americans knew Mormons, the less they liked us?
    That makes sense to me. We always have an agenda when we approach non-members. We are very friendly to them as long as there is a chance that they might convert. When they choose otherwise, we are not so friendly anymore.
    And if that happens in Utah, your children will now be labeled a bad influence.
    Then there is the whole “milk before meat” thing, which means that we are routinely lying to non-Mormons in the name of God. We are so eager to make our Church appear in the best light, we will be dishonest in a jiffy and don’t even notice it anymore.
    Well, our “friends” aren’t stupid. They are picking up on those patterns.
    If we really want to be respected, we need to treat non-Mormons better. Otherwise “bridge building,” which is just another agenda anyways, will only be counterproductive.

  • TheTruth

    Don’t know that Mormons are so hated as the title of this topic suggests. More correctly, it is the hypocrisy of that religion that is so hated by many people. For example, while Mormons proclaim themselves to be good Christians in their usual holier-than-thou fashion, no state in the USA uses pornography more than do people in that state. Mormons are noted for using profanities and for their racial hate of blacks or other minorities. They blindly adhere to the archaic and useless ideas of the Republican party. While Jesus said to love thy neighbor, Mormons all too often prefer to hate their neighbors. Jesus said those who take up arms shall die by them. But that never stopped Mormons from enlisting in the military and killing people.
    Why do people hate Mormonism? Easy ~ too much hypocrisy in that religion.

  • WJ

    “But here’s something that all Mormons can do, and it doesn’t involve politics: it would help if we stopped regarding ourselves as the finest people on the planet. We ought to take a long, hard look at the fact that we voted our own group tops in this research.”
    I think this is why blogs have become such a potent outlet for disaffected members of the church: it provides an easy forum for members to generate animosity towards one another.
    I find the suggestion that Mormons should stop regarding one another so highly as rather odd and senseless. How does disliking one another serve us better, whether it be furthering the purposes for which the church was established or for simply making Mormons’ lives more pleasant? There is no reason we can’t have high regard for our own while cultivating respect and kinship with members from other groups. To contend that we will have made progress when we like each other less seems a little off the mark.

  • Troy Stott

    The Real Truth
    Mormons are known for using profanities…
    Racial hate of blacks and minorities…
    Mormons hate their neighbors…
    Is this some official consensus? There are nearly 14 million Mormons around the world and this poster (poser) thinks he’s got them all figured out. I really don’t think it’s valid, not even close.

  • Eliza R. Snitch

    As a disaffected Mormon in a love/hate relationship with my people, I would have to say that the one thing that bothers me most about Mormonism is the lack of introspection and self-examination. It never occurs to them that they might be wrong. It rarely occurs to them that they might be hurting people (Prop 8, policy on homosexuality, ERA, blacks and priesthood, misogyny). People who dare to question the leadership’s judgment are seen as dangerous apostates who have been deceived by Satan. They are so certain that they have the truth, that they aren’t interested in any other point of view, and in fact consider other points of view to be wicked, or at the very least misguided. I would have a lot less problems with Mormonism if it didn’t encourage people to be arrogant about how their beliefs and their way of life are the best.
    And by the way, not every religion thinks that it is the one true religion, and not every church claims to be the one true church.

  • Jason (Orthodox Jew)

    In contrast, as my Jewish friend basically said about most Jews, “God doesn’t have to do much with our lives, and especially any commandments. We are our own gods.”
    This is the saddest thing I have ever read. Judaism teaches that there is a balance that the higher a potential one way, the higher the other. That statement explains why so much is wrong with America. It is not surprising that Jews are leading our country down that dark path, just like it’s not surprising that many Jews are leading the USA on the correct path. Judaism at its core is about a relationship between G-D and humanity and the role that humans (both Jew and non-Jew) have in finishing creation. Rabbi’s will tell you that the men of the Great assembly (2nd Temple Period) prayed to G-D that the temptation for idol worship be eliminated (to keep the balance that is why prophecy ended then to) but the statement of “We are our own G-Ds” makes me think they didn’t complete their task.
    Jason

  • http://postmormon.org Dogger Dog

    I’m a resigned member, quite disgusted with the church, and yet I think the first poster’s remarks are way off, unfounded, and totally unfair. Yes, there’s a thick layer of hypocrisy in the LDS church (with its ever elusively changing stance/doctrine/history), but that’s not why the public at large hates it. Hell, our own government has re-written its own history countless times (Abraham Lincoln, anyone?) They hate it because they don’t UNDERSTAND it. It’s the same with the Buddhism thing – what’s there to hate about that? It’s one of the most pacifist faiths in existence. The only Buddhist people know is Richard Gere, and he’s pretty harmless. Going back to misunderstanding – that’s what engenders such a strong reaction in people. Is it warranted? Probably not, but the LDS church has backed itself into a corner by changing its stance on things, and in the information age, it can’t hide anymore. The future will be interesting to say the least, as its numbers continue to dwindle (most that growth in the post-internet world is organic, from the growth analyses I’ve seen).

  • http://www.bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com grego

    Jason and all,
    Just to clarify, I didn’t want to make him a symbol of all Jews and their beliefs with that comment–he was sharing his view with me. I know there are different major camps in Judaism, and even in the last (furthest from “tradition”)–the one he put himself in–there are differences. (Not that he was a horrible guy, either. 😉 )

  • pat Grimm

    Once again religion is proving to be the enemy of God as it was during Jesus’ ministry. The only time that Jesus became angry was with the ruling religious power. All religion is a smokescreen to keep people AWAY from God, not to Him. People hate the Mormons? What about the Roman Catholics who in their history have killed, supported terror regimes, taken people’s money and never offered their flock the Holy Bible? All religions fall short of the grace of God. The Mormons stand out because they are arrogant enough to have made up their own story about God, and have ignored His holy Word. Do not let anyone, including a Mormon tell you that they believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, they believe that He is an angel just as the Jehovah Witnesses do, now that’s ANOTHER strange group. All we need to know is that God sent His only Son to save us and love us, all else is but dirty rags.

  • Gary Mac

    All religions AND denominations, have their laws to govern their gods. Doesn’t matter if one is a Catholic, Baptist, Jehovah’s Witness, Mormon, you name it, all of these govern their gods by law making their gods what they want him to be or not be. The difference in these and one who is in Christ is, if one has Gods Spirit residing in him as Jesus had Gods Spirit in him then we are conformed into His image and are as Jesus was: He in you and you in Him become one and all those laws designated to those religions are fulfilled and no longer under those tutorials. The KJV calls them schoolmaster and in Christ we are no longer under these regulations for your gods. Gal. 3:24-25.
    The reason people cannot agree about the Christ if spawn form these religions where opinions differ. But one thing is certain if one has what Jesus had then he will no longer be a part of any of these and become a witness for God as Jesus was witness of Him. All these denominations are only a witness to their laws for tradition formed to make their god what they want Him to be instead of following the way of Christ and be one with the Father. Christ in YOU is your hope of glory and we all know that Christ simply means for you to be anointed of God, the anointed one.
    Col. 1:26. Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    27. To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
    28. Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
    That perfection is a commandment not a request and there is much to be said about Him perfecting YOU just as Jesus was perfected by Him the same.
    Mat 5: 48. Be ye therefore perfect, even as you’re Father which is in heaven is perfect.
    Most religions do not believe they can be perfect because their laws state otherwise contrary to the Christ.

  • Your Name

    The reason mormons are hated is that they will not compumise there believes to be like other religions and they should not because god doesnot change because one thing they have a better way and a sin is a sin and to justifly it is a sin to.

  • http://flippethedolphin flipperthedolphin

    Having some members of my family spend many years in the U.S, and having an American sister-in-law, my older brother, niece and nephew spend many years in Salt Lake City, and despite being a Christian, obviously, I’m acquainted quite well with Mormonism, and despite their, at times random beliefs, they are really nice people.
    Once one religious group(and sad to say, this includes some Christians(as much as I’m passionate about being one), start to claim “EXCLUSIVE ACCESS TO THE TRUTH”, this is when religion can become ugly. Even I have to at times be careful about that, as no-one group has all the answers. We are all on a journey.
    Of all the religions in the world, their is only one true one, and that is compassion. flipperthedolphin

  • shannon

    My son recently joined the Morman church. It has been an interesting road for him and I. It had made me look into my denomination more and what we believe. There are still things for him that he questions. I am just glad that he has found something that he can hold onto. We both agree that both denominations believe in God and Jesus and are taught to live good live. Isn’t that what it is all about?

  • Shirley

    what I don’t like is criticizing people’s religious beliefs, who are we to tell people what they should believe spiritually. However, Islam is trying to take over the world the ideology is like Hitler’s regimen. Everyone can have their own opinion but keep it to yourself. we have enough hatred in this world I think the Moslem & Jew are the most hated. Mormons stick to themselves & don’t bother anyone

  • warren

    If anybody including Mormons really looked into the background of Mormonism they would discover that the Mormon religion is in fact a CULT. It is not Christianity in any shape or form. In fact the museum of American History has a document for anyone who would inquire Denying any geological claims that the Mormons have made reguarding their history. the question is How could anybody be so gullable to follow Mormonism. See the movie “the Godmakers” or contact Saints Alive ( an org. of EX-mormons who were shown the truth.

  • G Jones

    I studies Mormonism and love my neighbors who are Mormon. They are very respectful, hardworking, and gentle people. They love their kids and community. Great People!!!

  • Amayo

    Warren… I don’t understand your comment “It is not Christianity in any shape or form.” What is your definition of Christianity? To me, its someone who follows the teaching of Jesus Christ… and the church is called The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. His name is on the church…and if you’ve ever been to a church service or read the Book of Mormon, you would know that its all about following Christ. And about your geological claims… you may want to check the updates. Each year science and geologists find more and more proof that the Book of Mormon is accurate… many of them don’t want to admit it, but they are about the facts and can’t deny it. You should look up the movie “Journeys of Faith”… it show much of the science about it. And the book “Evidence of The Book Of Mormon”. It never makes sense to only look at one side of something and claim to understand it… so I encourage you to do more research before you make such bold claims.

  • Truthy Ruthy

    The Bible states that Jesus is God’s ONLY begotten son, but Mormons say that Lucifer is Jesus’ brother. That’s enough for me to shun Mormons.

  • J Vincent

    How many of you are so closed minded. Do we think that Heavenly Father is done with his creation and why does a certain religion want to hide the truth. And thay afraid what they are doing. How much of the word of God has been changed or not printed because a certain religion wants control. Open your minds up. God is not done and has more coming. If we can not believe that Joseph Smith had been visited by an angel then how are we to believe that anything else in the Holy Scriptures is real? Wake up people. I grew up around a family who are LDS. They tried and tried to have me join the church. It took years and I am now LDS. And I did it on my own time after praying and asking for guidance. But I did it on my time, and I am not a member of a cult. God is great and his Son Jesus Christ is my savior. God bless all of you. I am praying for you. God loves you and I love you.

  • Stan Parker

    Any “religion” that can trace its roots to one human (Smith) (Jones), etc. is a CULT. If you have ever been to Salt Lake City or Bountiful, Utah, you will find the people are weird in the sense that they all appear to be fake in their dialog and appearance.
    Their belief that they will all be “gods” someday separated me from them quickly and completely. They are rich and appear to be friendly, but when you see what goes on within their religious circles, it will send a shiver up your spine. Stay away from them. The facts speak for themselves.

  • http://bdbs.co Shala

    Interesting comments! I am a very proud Mormon. That said, I realize that the world is filled with wonderful people who love the Lord and their families and they are not Mormon. There are many Mormons who live a sheltered life in Utah, but there are many of us that see the good in many religions. Mormons are like all people, you will find narrow minded, covenant breaking people in all religions, not just Mormonism. I wish it was different, but we are all human. Many people out there have made judgements about Mormons from a negative standpoint only and that is wrong as Amayo has said. I am open enough to look at other religions with an open mind, those of you who are so narrow minded as to think we are a cult should open up and study the whole truth. I have a firm testimony of Mormonism as I have a firm belief that many non-mormons live better lives than many Mormons and that many religions have a great deal of good in them.

  • Charles

    If we can elect a muslim then we could elecet a mormon

  • Kedric

    As an “unaffiliated” like those mentioned in the article, let me clarify why we (or perhaps just I) dislike Evangelicals and Mormons. It’s simple: aggressive proselytizing. Most unaffiliated Americans were not raised that way, it was a journey of great pain and soul searching to reject the beliefs they grew up with. For many it has meant alienation from their families. Unaffiliated people, agnostics, and athiests, do not want you to try and convince us you’re right. You won’t. The only way we’ll ever accept your ideas, is if we see the truth of it on our own. We are people who have been hurt, and your aggressive attempts to convert people sting the unhealed pain of our own spiritual struggles.

  • Gary Lovgren

    Please unsubscribe me from your network.
    Thank you
    Gary

  • Bj

    As a convert to Mormonism 10 years ago I can say that just like any religion, we should be focusing on our faith and love of Christ. Too many people loose faith, or falter and blame it on the people. I was Baptist before converting, and I can say that other religions think Mormons are satan’s spawn! Yet we love All people, and know that all will be in a degree of heaven SOMEDAY.

  • Rosemarie

    Fear and ignorance create an atmosphere and environment for hatred, discrimination and malice. Religion is an attempt to have a structured belief in God, spirituality is an individual relationship with God. The Mormons are no different than most in regards to famil and values. Like many religious beliefs and organizations, the extremism and lack of tolerance creates distance and isolation for those that don’t totally conform. As the mother of a son who has converted? to Mormonism, I am careful to learn more about the beliefs and rituals and how that will affect my son and grandchildren. I believe in God, not a man who is deemed equal to God as the Mormons or some of the questionally racial and discriminatory beliefs that are a basis for their faith. I appauld Mormonism’s approach to some family values, however, their sociocultural and sociopolitical institutions and beliefs also harbor and maintain subtle levels of racism,sexism, prejudice and discrimination as all institutional systems in our society overall. I believe we all benefit if we are open to learning and embrace change.

  • Jack West

    Charles, Obama isn’t a muslim: he was a Christian in the United Church of Christ.If the Mormons are a cult(which I disagree with), they sure do sing good.

  • Alan Beavers

    I lived among the mormons in Utah and I learned a few things about in the13 yrs. I lived there. For one thing they prejudice against the black people in their church, meaning they can’t hold any major office.
    Also for the major part if your not mormon they frown on you. Also in their teachings they say they believe in the Bible, but yet their book of mormon that go against the teachings of the Bible. Which is what most religions do. But to me GOD and JESUS is not a religion, it’s about a relationship. Read James 1:27 to find out what true religion is all about. Then read John 14:6 and it will tell you what JESUS who and what JESUS is about.

  • Michigan Dave

    Mormonism is considered a cult because it denies the essential, orthodox teachings of the Bible: The nature of God, Justification (saved by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone), etc. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Mormonism is also a polytheistic religion (belief in many gods), while Christianity is monotheistic (belief in one God). These simple facts alone separate Mormonism from orthodox Christianity forever!

  • Your Name Jennifer

    To Michigan Dave-
    I was a Mormon for 15 years, and I must have missed all the other God’s you say Mormon’s believe in. God is God and He is the only one. So when you say Mormonism is a polytheistic religion, I think you need to research some more. Thank you.

  • Glenn

    The Mormons, strictly speaking as a people are incredible folks. Very loving and generous. Extremely family and community oriented. However In MY opinion they were led astray by human leadership back in the 1800’s. First by Joseph Smith who was jailed for many crimes including burning down a Chicago newspaper that wrote a bad article about him. Joe Smith claims to have been given the “Book of Mormon”by an Archangel
    and this is where they started to wander off the Christian road. Does this make them bad people? No, not at all. Many of us have been misinformed and led astray by something or someone in our lives, some like me a LOT of times! They have done a really good job in assimilating into the mainstream culture, occasionally one of their “fringe” groups causes them a lot of embarrassment and problems but those groups, Thankfully, are very few and dwindling.

  • Anja Smith

    hismin@xmission.com is an excellent site as to Mormonism.

  • Laie Techie

    Alan Beavers, you show ignorance in your comments. There is nothing in LdS theology or doctrine which would prevent a Black from being called to the highest positions. Some of our General Authorities already are Black. When a Black man is called to the Apostleship it won’t have anything to do with race.

  • Tomara Carter

    @Laie Techie. The LDS doctrine of today doesn’t prevent or discriminate against Blacks obtaining the priesthood,. Do a little more research…it’s there. Matter of fact…here’s a start for you:
    “Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that the Negro have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET every Negro DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES.” LDS “Apostle” Mark E. Petersen
    “THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon pre-existence].” LDS “Apostle” Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 – 528, 1966 edition
    “…[T]hrough their INDIFFERENCE or LACK OF INTEGRITY TO RIGHTEOUSNESS, [blacks] rendered themselves UNWORTHY of the Priesthood and its powers….” LDS “Historian” B. H. Roberts, The Contributor, vol. 6, pp. 296-297
    “You see some classes of the human family that are BLACK, UNCOUTH, UNCOMELY, DISAGREEABLE and LOW in their habits, WILD, and seemingly DEPRIVED OF NEARLY ALL THE BLESSINGS OF THE INTELLIGENCE that is generally bestowed upon mankind. The first man that committed the odious crime of killing one of his brethren will be cursed the longest of any one of the children of Adam. Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been KILLED, and THAT WOULD HAVE PUT A TERMINATION TO THAT LINE OF HUMAN BEINGS. This was not to be, and the Lord put A MARK upon him, which is THE FLAT NOSE AND BLACK SKIN. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another curse is pronounced upon the same race — that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be, until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree.” LDS “Prophet” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290, 1859

  • Jazene

    For this to be a Christian web site and after reading some of the comments written by you people I find that their are not too many Christians who read this. If it were you would all realize that it is not the “Mormans” that are disliked but their beliefs. If you all read the bible than you would know that homosexuality is wrong in GOD’s eyes. This has nothing to do with the Morman religion again it falls to what they teach and what they believe in. That is just another one of the things that you people are saying and tying in with this religion which is probably why bible beliving Christians do not agree with the Morman religion. I know Morman people and yes they are a giving people but if they believe and teach hoomsexuality then they are teaching wrong period.

  • JL Fuller

    I am amazed at how much misinformation is passed on as truth from non-Mormon, but otherwise religious people, when it comes to Mormon theology and history. May I suggest the best place, in fact the only places, to learn about LDS theology is from Mormon sources. There are several excellent places to go on the web. I suggest http://www.LDS.org, http://maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/, http://www.fairlds.org/ are three. I think you will find Mormons are very open and willing to discuss just about everything.

  • JL Fuller

    What makes Mormons so different from other Christians? First off we are not Trinitarians. That alone sets the stage for some serious disagreement. Next, LDS theology says the bible is but one of four accepted canonized sources for God’s word. Next, we believe God has once again called prophets and apostles and speaks to his children through them just as in ancient times. That means the holy record is not closed. If these things do not raise the ire of some then our history does, namely plural marriage, an old testament practice that was briefly practiced by early Mormons. It was stopped in 1890 but several non-Mormon sects continue to practice it. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (the official name of the church) does not.
    Maybe the most egregious thing todays Mormons do, according to some, is proselytize among other Christians and the general population. Among traditional Christians this is a no no and is called sheep stealing. In order to counter the high conversation rates, some traditional Churches and their pastors have taken to demonizing Mormons. Of course there are a lot of other reasons you will read about but I think these are the usual problems many traditional, historical or Creedal Christians have with us.

  • JL Fuller

    Blacks and the priesthood is one of those aspects of our history that has been troubling even for Mormons. The truth is, many of our church leaders recognized that fact early on but were prohibited from making worthy black men priesthood holders until 1979. The reason was never officially given. Many personal opinions were expressed by some leaders but they were just that – opinions, not doctrine. That is what you read above in Tomara Carter’s post. One other thing, the Journal of Discourses was not an official Church publication. The priesthood is available to all worthy males.

  • JL Fuller

    It may be hard for some people to accept but even LDS Church leaders are allowed personal opinions. However they are not official Church doctrine. Even the Brigham Young was entitled to his own views. One particular trait about Brigham was his use of hyperbole and when the two were combined certainly made for some interesting reading. I think that is where a lot of the misunderstanding about Brigham comes from.

  • JRiley

    Mormonism holds to a belief that Jesus was a created by God. This is totally offensive to the Christian belief affirmed in the 4th century that Jesus is begotten to created. This is not a question of liking a Mormon as a person, it is a case of disliking it is as a belief. I can like a friend or co-worker as a Mormon and totally disagree with his or her beliefs.
    One of the areas that is very frustrating about the Mormons is their evangelism that tells you in the beginning that they are just another group of Christians similar to the Baptists. Nothing could be further from the truth. They give away the KJV Bible to further confuse those who don’t know more about the Mormons.
    They also hide the fact that there are 3 levels of reward in Mormonism. The highest level is that you get your own planet and you and your spouse make spiritual babies and you are the “Jesus” or god of that planet.
    Bottom line, Mormons are different. I can like them and totally dislike their beliefs.

  • JRiley

    Typo above – Correction – Jesus is begotten Not created is the traditional Christian view

  • Melly

    The reason why I think a lot of people dislike Mormons, it’s because they put a lot more emphasis on the worship of Joseph Smith and not on Jesus Christ. They really should re name themselves as the Church of Joseph Smith..
    Another reason is all the odd “guidelines” they have that other religions do not. Such as wearing “modest” clothing. Even a tank top is considered inappropriate. Drinking caffine, dating before 16, going to see R rated movies, also their strict values for wifes to be caretakers and take care of the household.
    The last reason, I think is because the religion is barely 200 years old. Joseph Smith had a small group of followers in the late 1820s and it evolved from there. They though of him as a phophet because an angel had come to him with golden plates that had inscriptures contaning relgious history of ancient American peoples which is absurd because it would be the beliefs of American Indians he “translated”. America was barely a country then.
    If someone would have done that nowadays, we would lock him/her up in the looney bin and say they were a cult leader..

  • Melly

    @JL Fuller
    The reason why the church prohibited a black priesthood holder until 1979 is because the LDS church is prejudice. That should be obvious to anyone with a brain.
    Take a look at their church members..how many of them are light haired with light skin? Probably about 98% of them. Unless they’ve adopted children from other countries, they only fully accept their own kind and maybe that’s not all of them, but a lot of them are like that.

  • J L Fuller

    We worship God the Father through Jesus Christ, his Son and our Savior. It will take only a few moments to find out what we believe if you go to http://www.lds.org, and http://www.mormon.org. If you want to know more about some of the lesser known beliefs you can go to http://www.fairlds.org and http://www.maxwellinstitute.byu.edu/ for more scholarly views.

  • Joel Riley

    Dear JL Fuller,
    It would be quite nice if you would be more truthful about your Mormon beliefs. Let others know up front that you ONLY see God the Father as existing for all eternity. You see Jesus as a created deity but not as the everlasting God of Scriptures. It is this lack of honesty that wins you converts but also adds to the dissension between true Christians and the Cult of Mormonism. Count me in on 1 who could have a friendship with a Mormon but would not vote for Mitt Romney based on his religious preference. Keep it real and truthful.

  • http://www.bookofmormonnotes.wordpress.com grego

    “Why do people hate Mormonism? Easy ~ too much hypocrisy in that religion.”
    Hmmm… Is there anything wrong with this picture?: “I believe in God, I believe God is love, perhaps I am Christian: I *hate* hypocrites.”
    -=
    “Joe Smith claims to have been given the “Book of Mormon”by an Archangel and this is where they started to wander off the Christian road.”
    I’m assuming you are Protestant or after, and mean the “Christian road” of “no more signs, no more visions, no more communication with God”? Because the Catholic Church–from which most every other Christian religion broke off of–has all kinds of “similar” things, too. (And where does the claim “Archangel” come from? the Mormons?)
    -=
    “Mormonism is considered a cult because it denies the essential, orthodox teachings of the Bible: The nature of God, Justification (saved by faith alone, through grace alone, in Christ alone), etc. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Mormonism is also a polytheistic religion (belief in many gods), while Christianity is monotheistic (belief in one God). These simple facts alone separate Mormonism from orthodox Christianity forever!”
    What makes a teaching “essential”? For example, to the Baptists, isn’t (wasn’t) baptism essential for salvation?
    Who is the true orthodox Christian–the Catholic, or the believer in a religion that broke from the Catholic Church?
    Who is the true Christian who believes in the true Christ–the Baptist, the Methodist, the Lutheran, the Congregationalist, the Presbyterian, the Pentacostal, the …??
    Seriously!! If there weren’t any difference in their beliefs and in their Jesus, it seems there wouldn’t be any difference in their religions, and all these different Christian religions teaching different true truths about the true Jesus Christ that their different true church professes, right? How can all of those religions have the “true Jesus”?? Pretty impossible, right?
    It all sounds nice and good when there’s a “common enemy”/Mormons for all the Protestants and subgroups to come together to proclaim against, but… then what? Why don’t they all join together and form one church, you know, the one true church–with one faith, one doctrine, and one Jesus–the true ones? When that happens, at least the charge of “false Jesus” will at least be somewhat believable or understandable to me.
    As a fun addition to think about: Do you and your mother know your same dad? You two have the same viewpoint on everything about him, too?
    -=
    “Do not let anyone, including a Mormon tell you that they believe in the deity of Jesus Christ, they believe that He is an angel just as the Jehovah Witnesses do, now that’s ANOTHER strange group. All we need to know is that God sent His only Son to save us and love us, all else is but dirty rags.”
    So what does Jesus Christ being an angel have to do with Mormons?? Or you just couldn’t pass up the opportunity to get an extra shot off at ANOTHER strange group?
    Did God send “His only Son to save [Mormons] and love [Mormons]” too, or are Mormons included in that “dirty rags” part?
    -=
    “For one thing they prejudice against the black people in their church, meaning they can’t hold any major office.”
    “Take a look at their church members..how many of them are light haired with light skin? Probably about 98% of them.”
    What about Africa, Brazil, Haiti, Jamaica, and plenty of other places where most of the members and most of the leaders are black? That’s where it’s easiest to see. (How about all over the USA? Been to LDS services in Harlem lately? Bronx? LA?) How about Asia, India, South America, where most of the members and leaders aren’t “light haired with light skin”?
    But really, but what does that really have to do with it? If you say “blacks and the priesthood before”, cool. But that’s not even been mentioned by either. Guess what? Those Southern Baptists by me are mostly darker-skinned. Does that mean they are prejudiced, or discriminate, or that that church is wrong?
    -=
    “Any “religion” that can trace its roots to one human (Smith) (Jones), etc. is a CULT.”
    Well Stan, what about Martin Luther? I guess that takes care of about every church (whoops, I mean “cult”) other than the Catholic Church… What about Peter? I guess that takes care of the Catholic Church (I mean “cult”). What about…? If it’s a group of humans, then, does it make it “not a cult”? Is that really what a cult is?
    -=
    “If you have ever been to Salt Lake City or Bountiful, Utah, you will find the people are weird in the sense that they all appear to be fake in their dialog and appearance.”
    Like, do they all wear “mission impossible” masks and say the same words in a monotonous voice, like robots or something? Please!
    -=
    “Their belief that they will all be “gods” someday separated me from them quickly and completely. They are rich and appear to be friendly, but when you see what goes on within their religious circles, it will send a shiver up your spine.”
    Such as?
    -=
    Of course there’s misunderstanding (I could go on and on, but I’ve already written way to much for most people…). And of course, Mormons are people and have problems (all–not some, or just a few), just like everyone else.
    The comments on this post show the difference between comments that are insightful and contributing (such as Kedric’s, Shala’s, Rosemarie’s, etc.), even if disagreeable, dissenting, or even what I would consider not really on about Mormonism (I’m sure I am that way with other religions); and others that I wish were more insightful and contributing.
    Wouldn’t it be nice if all of our opinions were formed after careful observation, multiple personal experiences, and learning? Before going to France, I had a few personal experiences with French, and heard a lot of negative things, and even had a few negative personal observations. (Besides, I mean gosh, you just know that anyone who speaks *that* nasally has got to be bad!) Then I met a few more French at university. Then a few years later I went to Paris for about a week, and… wow, they were people! A few weren’t nice, but the majority *were*. (I even had my videocamera returned to me a few times when I had forgotten it.) I guess there was nothing to do but change my opinion after that.

  • J L Fuller

    Joel Riley
    Please take some time and do your home work. Go to http://www.LDS.org or http://www.fairlds.org or one of the other legitimate web sites operated by the Church or one of its organs.
    If I wanted to know about your faith I would go to you or your religious advisor first. I would give scant weight to rumors, misinformation and deliberate disinformation campaigns of others.
    The first thing I suggest you do is find out why LDS theology seems to change over time. That seems to be a sticking point among many detractors. I will give you a hint: it has to do with God re-opening the canon and talking to his children again through prophets and apostles. One more hint: We receive what we can absorb and use. Another: there is no end to God’s words.
    I would be more than happy to explain it all to you but if continue to think we are lying would I not be wasting my time?

  • TheTruth

    Why are Mormons ”hated”?
    Don’t know that they are ‘hated’ as the article says. But it is true that many distrust Mormons for their hypocrisy and right wing extremism. Here are people who are terribly holier-than-thou and who imagine themselves better than everybody else. Yet, no people in this country use more pornography than they do. Moreover, instead of loving others, they keep their doors closed to all other people who do not subscribe to their cultism. Catholics, Protestants, Jews, all other people allow others into their religious houses of worship. Only Mormons fail to do so even though there is no such instruction to do this in the Bible. Then, while claiming to love Jesus (the Prince of Peace) these Mormons promote a love of war and militarism. Such hypocrisy is laughable, not respectable.

  • johnathan

    I find the hypocrisy of Christian critics of Mormonism laughable. The origins of Christianity are as suspect as the origins of Mormonism, Islam or any other religion. Christianity is a fusion of Jewish myth and mystery religions of the early first century of the Common Era. there is not one shred of credible evidence Jesus or his apostles ever existed outside of the bible, written almost 70 years after the supposed life of Christ. The Christ of the bible is an obvious recasting of the reborn god myths prevalent around Syria at the time Paul was evangelizing.
    Not all Mormons are right wing politically look toward Senator Harry Reid,Jim Matheson, Congressman, Democrat, Utah and Tom Udall, Congressman, Democrat, New Mexico. Anyone who votes based on religious affiliation is a small minded bigot and should not even enjoy the right to vote. The Evangelical community in the U.S. is one of the most racist, anti-semitic bigoted demographic groups in the country.

  • Scott

    I used to be Mormon. I can see why they are hated. It really is a mix of arrogance (exclusive temples, exclusive access to heaven, “only true church,” “living prophets” who don’t say anything new, etc.) combined with hypocrisy (racism against blacks, practicing homosexuals are sinners since it is a choice, most money/resources spent on members rather than given to poor (church numbers indicate less than 1% is given to poor), members/church are wealthy, lying/spinning about about its history to others, pornography, sexism, etc.) along with ignorance (Book of Abraham is a fraud, Joseph Smith/Brigham Young/other prophets led members/church astray numerous times, false prophecies, Book of Mormon plagiarism from *KJV* Bible, coffee is bad, tea is bad, wheat is good, Mason-derived temple ceremony, numerous continuing temple changes, etc.)

  • Sallie Taylor.

    As a 65 year old woman I see people of all denominations using false allegations against oneanother why? This is a very depressing curse on humanity.If we go into depth all religion teaches the same thing i.e love, compassion and brotherhood.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Susan

    @Sallie Taylor: You cut to the chase. “If we go into depth all religion teaches the same thing i.e. love, compassion and brotherhood.” This may be true but, sadly, as evidenced by comments on here, many “believers” seem to have no compunction about not adhering to these most important principles. I’m glad there are some, like yourself, who obviously hold them dear.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Vanka

    Mormons are hated for the same reasons Mitt Romney’s or Jon Huntsman’s Mormonism is problematic. Mormonism is fundamentally imperialistic and fascist (in other words, it is a “cult”).

    First, Mormonism has very recently, and on several occasions, demonstrated that the LDS Church leaders will not hesitate to defy their own scripture (the claimed “word of God” in these last days) and “mingle religious influence with civil government” to coerce others to abide by LDS beliefs and policies. This is a direct violation of Section 134:9 which reads:

    “It is NOT JUST for religions to mingle religious influence with civil government, whereby one religious society is fostered and another proscribed in its spiritual privileges, and the individual rights of its members, as citizens, denied”

    Despite this, the LDS Church President (First Presidency) issued a statement that was read from the pulpit in every one of the 28,660 Mormon congregations, telling every Mormon to “do all in your power” to deprive same-sex couples of their equal right to marriage. This resulted in an outpouring of support for Proposition 8 in California, which turned that initiative completely around so it passed. The Mormons did the same thing in many other states, at the “command” of their leader, whom they consider to be “the only person on the earth who possesses and is authorized to exercise all priesthood keys” and to speak for God. In Utah, the Mormon leaders mingled their religious influence with civil government to override the majority will of the people on immigration law, and they constantly mingle their influence with the government of the State of Utah.

    Second, as I have already shown, Mormons who are “Temple worthy” make secret oaths of obedience and loyalty to the Mormon leaders. They “covenant to sacrifice all that we possess, even our own lives if necessary, in sustaining and defending the [Mormon Church]”, and they “consecrate yourselves, your time, talents, and everything with which the Lord has blessed you, or with which he may bless you [including positions of power and authority such as POTUS], to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, for the building up of the Kingdom of God on the earth and for the establishment of Zion.”

    Furthermore, these secret oaths are made in conjunction with symbolic death penalties that, although they have had the graphic throat-slashing gestures removed since the 1990’s, retain their symbolic meaning and significance, putting those who attend Mormon temples “under penalty of death” regarding these oaths.

    Taken together with the imperialist doctrines of the Mormon Church, whereby they have “prophesied” and believe that they will “put an end to all nations” and usher in the second coming of Jesus Christ, who will rule and reign a thousand years (the Millennium), and that each temple-worthy Mormon is “anointed” to become “…a king and a priest unto the Most High God hereafter to rule and reign in the House of Israel forever” — there is good reason to be concerned about a Mormon in the White House.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment agnes

    To have a temple recommend (to be a really good Mormon) requires that you answer this question in the negative:

    “Do you support, affiliate with, or agree with any group or individual whose teachings or practices are contrary to or oppose those accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?”

    Mormons can’t be anything but cruel to non- or former mormons or they can’t be real mormons. I don’t know why this isn’t more widely known. This is why people who left the church end up hurting so badly, because their families and former friends — poof! — are gone. As friends and confidants.

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  • http://www.bridgingtruth.com Previously blindly-obedient “elite” LDS ~ Kay Dee

    The controlling Mormon Church “cult” is hated inside and especially outside of Utah. Their fruits expose them. This is so sad. They spend $4 Billion on a Mall rather than help the poor except for PR purposes.

    The American hatred for the Mormons will increase the more the LDS impose themselves via PR ad nauseum on the internet and other media.

    The demise and downfall of this church will continue (less than 2 million pay their full tithing) until the leader’s are forced to come clean and tell the truth regarding the church’s history and beliefs in polygamy/sexual and spiritual abuse of women and children, satanic Masonry, Blood Atonement, altering the Book of Mormon (as prophesied), and the LDS church leader’s own involvement in theft of wealthy member’s assets (as Bank Board members, etc.) and even continued “accidental” deaths for coverup.

    The slitting of the throat “penalty” used in all LDS Temple ceremonies prior to 1990 is still “assumed” even today and reflects the control the leaders have over all temple-going members.

    No sane and knowledgeable person would ever vote for a Mormon for President until the church cleans up its act, admits the truth of their history and “abominable” beliefs, and is full-disclosure on their financials and illegal dealings.

    I have great respect for the original Book of Mormon, a simple history of “the other sheep” that Christ taught (John 10:16), but it was altered in 1837 as prophesied (1st Nephi 13)with over 3,000 significant changes with the 2nd printing…

  • http://www.originialbookofmormonrestored.com Previously blindly-obedient “elite” LDS ~ Kay Dee

    Please read Vanka’s profound remarks ~ seen two posts above mine. Excellent!

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Gemma Grover

    I grew up in Utah, I’ve been a Mormon all my life, I attend BYU in Utah, and I hate being stereotyped. Growing up,I’ve always had friends of different faiths, gender orientations, and lifestyles. Alcoholics, Marijuana users, bisexuals, you name it… And I will never revile the people they choose to be.
    I think the world hates blockhead Mormons who refuse to venture out of their religious comfort zones, but they are the minority. Most Mormons are very open-minded, in fact, most of my professors are Democrats (gasp). I do not condemn any other religion and find beauty in each one.
    I don’t see people bashing Muslims and Jews, why do people think it right to put down my religion? I will never criticize a belief, whether it be Atheism or Buddhism and will not tolerate this crap.
    I can understand why you would think our practices are weird, even we as Mormons have difficulty grasping everything, but they are personal and should not be debated and attacked.
    My wish is not to offend anyone, I just cannot read these comments without defending my religion, something I believe in with my whole heart.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment John Kennington

    Mormons are idiots. They pretend they are not a cult and they are. If you research and look in to their temple ceremonies you will see that they do strange rituals and gruesome promises of killing. They have a good PR becuase they realize that they have to not let it out what they are really like in the religion. Thye teach that the Catholic church’s leader the Pope i sthe anti Christ, that all other epople are going to Hell if they don’t become a MOrmon. They wear strangeclothes, ostracise and coerce through isolation anyone who does not fall into line. I was raised Mormon- believe me I know. They try to pretend all the time that they are a normal religion, but they are not doing the things they do inside the church. They are nort mainstream like Catholic or Baptist- they are a cult. I have been to the temple – it is weird and wrong so I left.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment JR

    I Think that what is misleading in this article is the fact that a group of strong Christians maintain their beliefs as the Bible says and all the others can’t stand it because they have moved away from what the bible has been teaching for hundreds of years. Communications is the biggest problem, because on average, when asked most people don’t even know a Mormon, have ever talked to one and wouldn’t know one walking down the street. The belief is strong because they adhere to the truth of the Bible’s teaching, have very strong family values, and are people you can count on in a time of crisis, try finding that in any other religion, good luck. People are naturally jealous of good when they aren’t.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment RJN

    Iam a very proud Mormon. it has completely changed my life and it is the best atmosphere for my family especially my two young sons. People frown upon paying ten percent of their wages toward tithing and have trouble with the word of wisdom. One of the reasons we pay tithing is to keep our wards,temples and other facilities beautiful. As for the words of wisdom our Heavenly Father wants us to take care of our selves and steer clear from things that harm us ! Lastly I want my children to be able to have the gift of repentance if they do something wrong. instead of being trapped in a confession booth with a priest or minister. AND WE ALL KNOW WHAT HAPPENS IN THERE !!!! The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints is the only true church on Earth

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Eric

    Why? Because the idea that they love the others just isn’t true. I sat through Mormon sacrament meetings as a child. And almost every meeting there were a couple people talking condescendingly about those outside the church and “of the world”. How can you like people who act like this? (Say one thing to your face… and another behind your back) I don’t have any respect for Mormons because they so willingly trash on the world constantly as if they are somehow any better.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment kev0001000

    It’s funny how some people don’t even know a Mormon, don’t know what their religion teaches, yet still have a strong opinion on their religion. This article spews bias as if the author did some kind of study, but instead gave nothing but his own opinions. @ Eric. Dude, just because you sat through sacrament and heard some people talking crap that does not mean that you can label the whole church as a big organization of hate. You can say what you want but that was petty and childish. I grew up in a ward (mormon church meeting house) where they taught false doctrine, talked crap about others, and even made racist comments. I knew the difference between what we teach and what some choose to teach. After having attended different wards who would teach the right thing I could tell that if some one were to visit my old ward they wouldn’t recognize it as an LDS church. That kind of thing happens. Because people have a little thing called free agency.

  • http://theyhavedeclaredwar robert

    I was not thrilled with mormons before obviously as i put a Tax the mormon church sticker on my car two days ago in regards to their financing against prop 8. Two days after this sticker my car which is brand new has been vandalized keyed and kicked in…caught on tape with a white male in his thirties with a wife and three kids in tow….not very christian which is typical of mormons…but now they have declared war on me personally and i plan to respond in kind…robert

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Michael

    Really? Are the Mormons Jews? Oh, I see. Now, I understand. Well, it is pretty ironic. Funny.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Joseph Calloway

    don’t be cruel love jesus and god i’m mormon

  • http://NoMormonInWhiteHouse.blogspot.com timothy unrine

    Maybe Mormons wouldn’t be SO HATED if;

    Mormons didn’t steal the good name of Jesus Christ and put in on a Non-Christian cult.

    Mormons wouldn’t claim to be Christians, when theologically, they are not.

    finally – when you tell EVERYONE their church is WRONG – – you ruffle feathers.

    But good luck finding those golden plates.

  • http://www.exmormon.org/ Jim

    Mormonism would be fine, except for the fact that it has been pretty much proven false. Scientists overwhelmingly agree that american indians came from siberia 35000 to 12000 years ago. A reasonable reading of the BOM says that indians came to america much more recently and should had hebrew ancestors.

    In addition to NO archaeological evidence ever having been found supporting the BOM, that book mentions elephants at the time of christ. Sorry, there were none. Read the smithsonian and National geographic statements on the book of mormon.

    Joseph Smith was known as a con artist. Google glass-looker “joseph smith” for proof. Only three unreliable witnesses saw the gold plates. He failed miserably in the kinderhook plate matter and the book of abraham, proved by egyptologists to be common funeral texts. How much more proof do we need that it’s a fraud?

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Melvin

    Please unsubscribe me from your network,to. Thank you.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Aryan blood

    Well, what I do know what does not change me. I know I am better than Mormons, Americans, and any other race. Whether you like it or not. I am the better, because I am pale, brown eyes and dark blond hair and medium height. It does not change of who I am. If Mormons has been taxed. Because God has punished them. God is love. God is punishment. If you break the Lord’s covenants, the Lord breaks with you, also. The Mormon church is not the true church anymore. They have lost the title.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Unforgiven

    I hate all religions but Mormonism is definitely at or near the top of the list. Why would I respect anyone for believing I’m cursed for having dark skin? And don’t trot out this BS about it not being church doctrine because, even assuming that’s true, their “church” is still powerless to stop a lot of their members from believing it– either way, it definitely doesn’t speak well for their cult.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Nobody

    Mormons are hated because they are one of the most hateful groups in America. They may claim to like everyone, but having grown up Mormon in Utah I know the truth. Mormons hate:

    Non-Mormons
    Blacks
    Hispanics
    Asians
    Gays
    Californians
    New Yorkers
    Liberals
    Poor people
    Catholics
    Baptists
    Buddhists

    Just to name a few. This is not implicit, by the way. These are groups that you’ll hear Mormons explicitly and regularly casting aspersions upon in everyday life in Utah.

    And despite what Mormons say (What? We love everybody, they all just hate us!) the rest of the nation and much of the world gets it. Mormons hate us, want to interfere in our lives (see Prop. 8 for example), and accuse us of being prejudiced against Mormons when we push back against the influence.

    More to the point, most of America also knows that they’re simply not welcome in Mormonism without giving up the basics of who they are. Mormonism is a monoculture of Nth-generation white Europeans with the most politically conservative positions in the nation. Deviate from this at all (say, be African-American, or decide that you don’t want to have kids, or vote Democratic) and the Mormons don’t want (and will actively accuse) you anyway.

    People get it. It’s that simple. It’s not about building bridges, it’s about what Mormonism is. People aren’t stupid; they’re quite astute in fact.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    The founding Fathers of Mormons hated Christianity. Mormons seem to like to now claim they are somehow Christians. However the Christian God was never a man, nor was the Christian Jesus created like the Mormon one was. Joseph Smith was one of the most vile frauds to ever live in America. The truth should matter, and if Mormons knew the truth about Smith, Mormonism would not exist.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    Joseph Smith Denied He Was A Polygamist!
    Joseph Smith publicly denied all his life that he was ever a polygamist. Yet, he had 33 wives, including his own foster daughters, the Lawrence sisters, aged 14 and 16. Joseph Smith was also “married” to women who were already married and living with other men at the time, men who apparently did not know their wives were married to Joseph Smith. In May of 1844 he declared:

    “What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one.” (History of the Church 6:411)
    At that time, Joseph Smith had at least thirty “wives”. He only provided for three of them (his public wife Emma and his two foster-daughters who lived with him). The other women were either very young girls still living at home, or they were the wives of other men living with those men.
    Here are more denials, from the pens of Joseph Smith, while he was “married” to many different women:

    History of the Church, vol. 2, pg. 247 (August 1835)
    “The clerk of every church should keep a record of all marriages solemnized in his branch. All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this Church should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.”
    Messenger and Advocate (Aug 1835) pg. 163
    “All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church should be held sacred and fulflled. Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife: one woman, but one husband, except in teh case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again.”

    History of the Church, vol. 5, pg. 30 (May 1836)
    “Inasmuch as this Church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication and polygamy, we declare that we believe that one man, should have one wife, and one woman but one husband, except in case of death,, when either is at liberty to marry again.”

    Messenger and Advocate (May 1837), pg. 511:
    “1st. That we will have no fellowship whatever with any Elder belonging to the quorums of the Seventies who is guilty of polygamy or any offense of the kind, and who does not in all things conform to the laws of the church contained in the Bible and in the Book of Doctrine and Covenants.”

    Times and Seasons, vol. 4, pg. 939 (October 1, 1842)
    “All legal contracts of marriage made before a person is baptized into this church, should be held sacred and fulfilled. Inasmuch as this church of Christ has been reproached with the crime of fornication, and polygamy: we declare that we believe, that one man should have one wife; and one woman, but one husband, except in the case of death, when either is at liberty to marry again. It is not right to persuade a woman to be baptized contrary to the will of her husband neither is it lawful to influence her to leave her husband.”

    Times and Seasons, vol. 4, pg. 28 (December 1, 1842)
    “He spoke of the various publications of Bennett and others, and of the prejudices which they had necessarily excited-that the Mormons were charged with sanctioning a community of wives and of goods, with polygamy, and various other enormities, not one word of which is true.”

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    More unbelievable stuff and its sad people get hoodwinked and lied to:

    DNA and The Book of Mormon
    The Book of Mormon claims that the “Lamanites (lay-man-ites), the American Indians, are the descendants of Lehi (lee-high), a Jew. Yet, DNA studies of American Indian tribes reveal they had not one Semitic “gene” in their DNA, no Semitic ancestry whatsoever. The American Indians are Asians, like the Chinese. They have “mongolian folds” in their eyelids as other Asians. They have a “Mongonlian dot” on their tailbones like other Asians. Their hair, languages, skin, eyes, culture, religion, and DNA are all Asian, with NO SEMITIC GENES whatsoever!! They are closely related to the Tuvan people of Siberia. The Book of Mormon teaches that “Lamanites” (i.e. American Indians) have dark skin because God “cursed their skin with darkness” so that the white-skinned Nephites (nee-fights) would not intermarry with them.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    and more:

    Archaeology and The Book of Mormon
    There is no archaeological evidence for The Book of Mormon. The book says that the Nephites had horses, sheep, goats, oxen, asses, but there is no evidence that oxen, sheep or asses (donkies) existed in the New World before Columbus. Horses in America were too small to ride, and went extinct about 10,000 years ago, long before Book of Mormon times. Not one pot-sherd of “Nephite” civilization has ever been unearthed. NothingZ.

    Had the Nephites existed for 1000 years in America, in the millions, they would have tens of millions of oxen, goats, asses, and sheep over this time period. Yet, in The Book of Mormon is true, one must believe that all these animals went exinct in America before Columbus, and did not leave behind one bone or fragment.

    Some of the places mentioned in The Book of Mormon, such as Angola, Kishkumen, Oneida, Morin, Alma, Ramah, Jacobugath (Jacobsburg), were names of villages that existed in the time of Joseph Smith, but not in ancient America when the Nephites allegedly existed.

    Mormonism began with the “Angel Moroni” who hid the Gold Plates in the “Hill Cumorah”. Coincidentally, “Moroni” is the capital of the “Comoro Islands” off the coast of East Africa. In the 19th century, when The Book of Mormon was produced, the Comoro Islands were called the Camore (pronounced “Cumorah”) Islands

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    How about the cover up of Racism in Mormonism?

    The Curse of Cain Doctrine and Cover-Up
    There have been black Mormons since 1832, although very few of them until after 1978. There is no evidence that Joseph Smith was racist. He allowed black Elders (as long as they were free men), and invited blacks to worship in the Nauvoo Mormon Temple.

    But that would change with Brigham Young.

    From 1848 until 1978, “Negroes” were banned from all Mormon Temples and the Mormon priesthood (which every Mormon male must hold to get to the Celestial Kingdom). Mormon prophets during this time taught that “Negroes” were the inferior and “cursed” children of Cain, and the “mark of Cain” was a black skin, flat nose, and kinky hair. Here are just a few quotes from Mormon Church leaders (there are hundreds of quotes):

    Oliver Cowdery, Second Elder, co-founder of the Mormon Church:

    “Let the blacks of the south be free, and our community is overrun with paupers, and a reckless mass of human beings, uncultivated, untaught and unaccustomed to provide for themselves the necessaries of life-endangering the chastity of every female who might by chance be found in our streets-our prisons filled with convicts, and the hang-man wearied with executing the functions of his office!” (Messenger and Advocate, Sept. 11, 1833)
    Brigham Young second President and Prophet:
    “You see some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race–that they should be the “servants of servants;” and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290; emphasis added)
    “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be.” (Journal of Discourses, 10:110; emphasis added)

    “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of man, that they may not call Scripture.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95).

    John Taylor, third President and Prophet:
    “After the flood we are told that the curse that had been pronounced upon Cain was continued through Ham’s wife, as he had married a wife of that seed. And why did it pass through the flood? Because it was necessary that the devil should have a representation upon the earth as well as God. . . .” (ibid., 23:304; emphasis added).
    “When he [Satan] destroyed the inhabitants of the antediluvian worlds, he suffered a descendant of Cain to come through the flood in order that he might be properly represented upon the earth.” (Journal of Discourses, 23:336; emphasis added)

    Wilford Woodruff, who became the fourth President and Prophet of the LDS Church:
    “What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them.”(Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).
    George Reynolds (Apostle):

    “We will first inquire into the results of the approbation or displeasure of God upon a people, starting with the belief that a black skin is a mark of the curse of Heaven placed upon some portions of mankind. . . . We understand that when God made man in his own image and pronounced him very good, that he made him white. We have no record of any of God’s favored servants being of a black race. . . . When God cursed Cain for murdering his brother Abel, He set a mark upon him that all meeting him might know him. . . . After the flood this curse fell upon the seed of Shem, through the sin of their father, and his descendants bear it to this day. . . . We are told in the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price, that Egypt was discovered by a woman, who was a daughter of Ham, the son of Noah. . . . The pure Negro, as represented by the people of Guinea and its neighboring countries, is generally regarded as the unmixed descendant of Ham. . . . Their skin is quite black, their hair woolly and black, their intelligence stunted, and they appear never to have arisen from the most savage state of barbarism (Juvenile Instructor, October 15, 1868, p. 157).
    George F. Richards (Apostle):
    “The Negro is an unfortunate man. He has been given a black skin. But that is as nothing compared with that greater handicap that he is not permitted to receive the Priesthood and the ordinances of the temple, necessary to prepare men and women to enter into and enjoy a fullness of glory in the celestial kingdom [i.e., godhood].” (Conference Report, April 1939, p. 58)
    Joseph Fielding Smith (10th President of the Mormon Church):
    “Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren–children of God—notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness.” (The Way to Perfection, 101-02; emphasis added).
    “There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages… The Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits.” (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66; emphasis added)

    Bruce R. McConkie (Mormon Apostle):

    “In a broad general sense, caste systems have their root and origin in the gospel itself, and when they operate according to the divine decree, the resultant restrictions and segregation are right and proper and have the approval of the Lord. To illustrate: Cain, Ham, and the whole Negro race have been cursed with a black skin, the mark of Cain, so they can be identified as a caste apart, a people with whom the other descendants of Adam should not intermarry. (Gen. 4; Moses 5.)” (Mormon Doctrine, p.114)
    “Though he was rebel and an associate of Lucifer in pre-existence, and though he was a liar from the beginning whose name was Perdition, Cain was cursed with a dark skin; he became the father of the Negroes, and those sprits who are not worthy to receive the priesthood are born though his lineage. He became the first mortal to be cursed as a son of perdition. As a result of his mortal birth he is assured of a tangible body of flesh and bones in eternity, a fact which will enable him to rule over Satan.” (Mormon Doctrine, p.104)

    “Through Ham (a name meaning black) the blood of the Canaanites was preserved through the flood, he having married Egyptus, a descendent of Cain. Negroes in this life are denied the priesthood; under no circumstances can they hold this delegation of authority from the Almighty.” (Mormon Doctrine, p.343)

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Dennis Thompson

    The 1891 Prophecies of Joseph Smith
    Joseph Smith prophesied “in the name of the Lord and let it be written” that Christ would return in 1891. He prophesied this on two separate occassions. In February of 1835, Joseph Smith addressed a group of Mormon elders who were going to march to Jackson County, Mission (Zion) to defend other Mormons from Missour mobs:

    “President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a revelation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion…our trial, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord, which was nigh—even fifty-six years would wind up the scene.” History of the Church, Vol. 2, p. 182.
    Add 1835 to 56 and one gets 1891.
    In Volume 7 (the Index) of the Documentary History of the Church, published by the Church, under “Second Coming” one reads this:

    “Joseph said would be in 56 years V2:182″
    On April 6th, 1843, Joseph Smith wrote:
    “I was once praying earnestly upon the subject, and a voice said unto me, My son, if thou livest till thou art 85 years of age, thou shalt see the Face of the Son of Man–I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this & took the liberty to conclude that if I did live till that time He would make His appearance or I shall go where He is–I prophesy in the name of the Lord God–& let it be written, that the Son of Man will not come in the heavens till I am 85 years old, 48 years hence or about 1890.” (Diary of Joseph Smith, April 6, 1843, quoted in The Revelations of Joseph Smith, p.345)
    Add 1843 to 48 years and one comes to 1891.
    Some Mormon apologists call this “Not a prophecy at all, he was just giving an off-the-cuff remark!”

    Others say, “Well, Jesus WOULD have come if Joseph Smith lived to age 85, but since he didn’t, the Lord did not come. The prophecy was conditional”.

    But that doesn’t work. The prophecy did NOT say: “The Lord shall come IF you live to 85″. The prophecy said: “The Lord shall come in 48 years from now (1891), and if you (Joseph) live till then, you’ll see His face!”

    When confronted with this, Mormons reply, “Well, its NOT a false prophecy. It would have happened then, but we weren’t ready for it!” The Bible says that the sign of a false prophet is ONE prophecy that does not come to pass:

    “When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word which the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you need not be afraid of him” (Deuteronomy 18:22)

    Joseph Smith prophesied, twice, that Christ would return in 1891. What happened?
    How many UNfulfilled prophecies can a “true” prophet give? The Bible says: NONE!

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Michael

    Beware of false prophets, who comes as sheep behind are wolves. Hear this, he who has ears, let him hear, he who has eyes, let him see. It is written by the Paul the Prophet: if any angel or any man comes to you preaching a different gospel and another Christ, let him be an anathema. if any man receives him, receive his their sins and are partakers of them. He who worships the beast, will drink the bitter cup of the great indignation of the Lord. If any man hates the Lord Jesus, cursed is he.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Michael

    Remember that the Antichrist will sit in the throne of the temple as though he is God, but the time shall come that the Lord will come from heaven and destroy him by the breath of his mouth and by the light of his Presence will annihilate the Antichrist who exalted above God and against God, whom the man of sin shall be revealed comes from the Mormon Church.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Michael

    I am angry just because I paid money to them. I have wasted and they have stolen my tithing money. I have trusted them so much.

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  • http://MormonsarejustgenderconfusedMasons.... Polander

    And I deem them the gender identity problems that the Muslims have nothing to do with.

    Clearly, the agenda is reproduction at all costs…and only gender confused would where garments to protect their genitals..

    Really…

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment skyler blake

    okay i am a mormon.i am here to tell you we are not some freak people!we are christians just like alot of you.we love, and believe in god,and jesus christ.and we dont worship some statue or anything.if you dont know us please dont say lies based on what you heard.i mean alot of us go to friends who arent mormons church.its not like we hate everyone but mormons.well what im trying to say is WERE NORMAL!

  • http://www.tutoriaismetin2.com/index.php?action=mobiledisable Tutoriais Metin2

    I was suggested this blog by way of my cousin. I’m not sure whether this post is written by means of him as no one else understand such exact about my trouble. You’re amazing! Thanks!

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  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment mary

    My so married a mormon girl. After she had his baby she had what she wanted and decided he was too imperfect for her. She is the most smug, weird girl There were times I loved her but since she did not really know how to love like a mature woman-and always complained about our son who works so hard….I do not care if I ever see her again. Mormonism is a cult,strange folks who are automatons

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Serge Mullet

    How do Catholics have a shared ethnicity exactly?
    Plenty of Italians are Catholics, as are Irish. It’s big in Africa. Actually, World Youth Day was held in Sydney recently and pretty much every nation would have been represented in some way.
    Don’t get me wrong. I’m not a Catholic. If anything, Catholicism makes Atheism seem far more acceptable. What a bunch of made up fairy-stories and claptrap they have invented to fool the masses. Something that I’m sure that this website would be more than familiar with.
    Amazing that Buddhism is disliked so much. Probably because it is a religion that teaches peace, compassion and understanding, which goes strongly against the philosophy of shoot/invade first, ask questions later.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Judy

    Mormonism is a cult. They are predatory. I am non-mormon, when my son became involved with a mormon girl, he, actually our whole family became yet more victims of this insidious group. Don’t fool yourself. It is NOT a religion, founded on great principles and ethics. It was founded by con men in the early 19th century, and it is still a con hidden by the trappings of religion. Read Richard Packham’s website or Mormonthink.

    Wake up America

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Donna

    And after the Jodi Arias trial you are hated by even MORE people as hypocritical, evil, little organized hate mongers. You are a pathetic cult.

  • http://mormonsarecrooksandliers fredrico

    the Mormon church is the most corrupt evil organization in the world..they are full of sex prediters that rape and molest kids..the bishops are the worst..they call wemen in for interviews then rape them and then tell them the lord told them to do it

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Mahonri Young

    Why do people dislike Mormons? Their core belief that they, and ONLY they – have all the truth. You will have to pass by Joseph Smith to get into one of the degrees of heaven. Their smug attitude of telling all others they are wrong but Mormonism is right is not a good one.

    If you want Mormon practice on homosexuality to change – hit them in the pocketbook. That did it for polygamy: they changed rather than lose property and money.
    It worked for Blacks and the moronicPriesthood baloney – BYU boycotts of football and basketball games and US threats of losing tax exempt status and Wham-O, now all the ‘dark and loathesome’ negroes can have the moronicPriesthood just like their ‘white and delightsome’ chosen brethren.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment TLR

    The people who hate us are not concerned with our stance on gay marriage. If you want to see homosexuals get hitched, go join the Community of Christ.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment TLR

    and to the butthole commenting above, all religious groups make truth claims. There is nothing unique about Mormonism in this department. Your COEXIST bumper sticker nonsense makes truth claims as well. “There is a wider truth that all religions tap into, the specifics are redundant.” That’s a fine belief, but it bills itself as the only truth.

  • http://AddaURLtothiscomment Tina

    You are mistaken about Mormons liking everyone else. I lived in SLC for for years. They do not like most people. They are fake. I met more closeted porn freaks, closeted gays, and prescription drug abusers than anywhere else I have travelled.

  • http://WhyCan'tWeAllAcceptEachOtherAndMoveOn? fj

    You have to realize that mormon members are still people. We are not perfect. We make mistakes. Many mormons are not great people. Many mormons are good people. Many non mormons are not great people. Many non mormons are good people. Because they are people. Not gods. Yes, some mormons don’t follow the teachings like they should. But many do. All mankind has free agency. Many comments above claim that they know exactly what happens in a temple or in a church building. But have they ever been inside? Most people up there have such bad views and beliefs on mormons, yet don’t know what we believe in. Don’t know what we practice. Don’t know what we teach. Don’t all religions believe their church is the true church? Not everyone is bad because they are mormon. Not everyone is bad because they aren’t mormon. I also fail to see how a judgement on a few select people equals all members must be like the few they met.

  • http://WhyCan'tWeAllAcceptEachOtherAndMoveOn? fj

    I’d also like some reasons that are actually probable and realistic if you’re going to call LDS a cult. Christianity is not one religion. It has denominations.Judaism has denominations. Hinduism has denominations. And just for the record men are not better than women in the church. Each gender has their own role and their own part to play. Each has things that they can provide. Whether the man works or the woman works isn’t set in stone. Whatever is best for the family is what needs to happen. And if you really want to have something to argue about, maybe you should find out what mormons actually believe. I also fail to see mormons constantly changing their views. I have never seen racism towards anyone in my ward. I know mormons who can be racist, yes. Some are arrogant, yes. But haven’t you ever been arrogant? Haven’t you ever thought you were better? But like I said they are human and not perfect. I’ve seen non mormons be racisst too. Everyone has a secret to hide or things they are ashamed of. Like me. I’m ashamed of things I’ve done that were not Christlike. However I am also ashamed that so many people on here are good people, yet slander others and abuse beliefs. Our tithing does not go to waste. It helps families and people in our area who need it. I’m not trying to hate on anyone, but I felt that this needed to be said. So much of the stuff on here is rude and uncalled for. I am quite confused about how one man represents an entire group and belief. And now that I’ve had my spill, I’m done. I’m sorry if I offended any of you, but honestly this needed to be said.

  • http://tiffanylewis62@yahoo.com tiffanylewis

    I have a stalker from the mormon religion michelle arndt reid its been horrible

  • http://tiffanylewis62@yahoo.com tiffanylewis

    I sm born and rsised v catholic it is my only relgion I love gof but I hste the mormon rrligion I think it is a cult made up of a bunch of lazy pigs I would never join that rrligion

  • Enoughisenough

    I’ll tell you why they are hated. I’m a tolerant person and believe in minding my own business. We had a group of about 30 Mormon families “invade” our city from some alarm company. That’s fine, but how they all acted was unreal. This is the south so everyone is friendly, says hi, or at least smiles. No, not these people. You’ll hold the door open for one of them and they can’t even bother to say thank you. The most stuck up people I have ever encountered. Strike one. Now let’s talk about the kids, Dear Lord, ever heard of birth control? I get it, people have lots of kids, but what ticked off everyone around here is NOT ONE KID was ever supervised, EVER. We’re not talking 10 or 11 years olds, no, these are 2,3, and 4 year olds. Yes, toddlers for God’s sake. What parent does that? Strike two. Acting like the entire world revolves around them with zero consideration for anyone else. These people are the epitome of the rudest neighbors: loud, zero consideration for anyone else’s property, will be the first to gripe about others but act 10 times worse, think that laws and rules do not apply to them, etc. Strike three. And just one more question, do any of these people ever get an education? I understand not everyone has a college degree, but these people act like they didn’t even get beyond the 8th grade. They also are a bunch of scam artists with this alarm company. I have heard their sales pitch, and razzle-dazzle while overhearing their phone conversations (they take nothing in private) and their business practices are atrocious. I never had anything toward Mormons, but after encountering this group I want nothing to do with this bunch. I completely understand now why they are so hated. I’m pretty much there myself.

  • Enough, Enougisenough

    Enoughisenough, I would say your observations have more to do with a group of salespeople more than a group of Mormons (except for perhaps the young children–big families around other big families tend to let their children be a little freer because they look at the group as more of a collective, watching out for each other–though it can bother me as well).

    Personally, I regard condemning millions of people based on some observations of one group of people who are a bit unique because of their reasons for being there a bit simple-minded for an educated person. Also consider cultural variations–the South is a different place and is mocked by non-southerners just like you are mocking non-southerners. We could all benefit by being a bit more hospitable, but if a bunch of families from the North East invaded your town, would you blame their alleged rudeness on their respective religions, or on regional cultural differences? I want to give you the benefit of the doubt that you saw at least some of what you think you saw, and you probably did, but I’ve been around enough to know that people in general fall into too many traps of confirmation bias and attribution bias, myself included (which I’m actively working to counter, constantly–I hope you are too). The world would be a much better place if we would see it for what it is and get rid of these biases.

  • John Haake

    Why 3rd place, you ask??? Indeed, why not 2nd?? I know they are just too small and insignificant to be a 1st place contender. “Mormons like everyone else.” haha this comment took me back to my missionary days and the “jokes” my companions (multiple) and I use to share at the expense of the “unworthy heathens” surrounding us. “I’m a Mormon” PR campaign — yeah, like extremely tattooed women and an adult skateboarding man who wears RED THONG underwear would fit into any congregation of Mormonism you are familiar with — PR is right.

  • Jon G

    Mormons have to be the largest most hated group in the world today. It makes sense. They majority of the population hated Christ when he ministered on the earth, so of course they’re going to hate Mormons.

  • Mormon in Utah

    But we are superior!!!

    • O. Locke

      the mormon-cult is superior in that it has a tax exempt status.

      apparently god needs tax subsidies in order to thrive.

      • JMW

        Tithing helps move the Lord’s truths forward, and he blesses you for it! Do not mock God, for in the great and terrible last day, you will be smitten if you have not repented!

        This is the eleventh hour, the last and the greatest dispensation. The Lord will bless those who tried their best with eternal joy. I hope you will one day be eligible for that gift.

        • O. Locke

          this is some great sarcasm!

          thanks for the laughs, pal!

          • JMW

            That last post was pretty dramatic. Seriously, though. You don’t need to claim we’re a cult because you don’t agree with us.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I don’t make an unsubstantiated claim against the mormon-cult. It is in fact a cult.

            Cult – a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object.

            1. the “profit” – joseph smith – #hediditallforthenookie
            2. the one who is still talking to “god” – thomas monson

            the guy who talks to god can just make stuff up and mormon cultists have to follow him. YOU KNOW THAT’S TRUE.

            I call the mormon-cult exactly what it is. get your facts straight about your cult before you start asking rational people questions about it.

            thanks, pal.

          • JMW

            Look, pal.

            I don’t make an unsubstantiated claim defending The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. It is, in fact, a legitimate religion that deserves to be respected.

            There are very few religions on earth that don’t meet the definition of cult, pal. Deal with it.

            The prophet won’t make something up. If he did, he wouldn’t be a prophet. The Lord, knowing everything, only calls those He knows won’t do that. We don’t have to follow him. We could just leave the church. YOU KNOW THAT’S TRUE.

            Also, anybody who prays talks to God. Not just the prophet.

            I call your lies exactly what they are. Lies. Get your facts straight about the lies you’ve said before you claim I’m not rational.

            Most people don’t like to be called pal.

            Thanks, pal.

          • O. Locke

            look, buddy.

            mormon-cult ideology has nothing to do with religion. And I love the mormon-cult defense for their truly delusional cult practices. It’s always the same with mormon-cult apologists. Instead of defending the cult they attempt to bring other religions into the conversation.

            the mormon-cult “profits” receive “revelations” when their tax exempt status is threatened. That’s the whole reason god hated blacks til 78′.

            And you can’t “just leave” the mormon-cult. you know how mormon-cultists shun outsiders. SHAME ON YOU for not telling the truth.

            I see you have the mormon-cult apologetics memorized. thanks for illustrating the problem.

            thanks for the exchange, buddy.

          • JMW

            We are a religion. You are a fool to say otherwise. You don’t even know what we believe and practice, thus calling them delusional proves how delusional you are by saying that.

            Pretty much everybody was racist back then. The doctrine of the church is perfect and real. The people in the church aren’t perfect. Everyone makes mistakes.

            Yes, you can “just leave”. In saying things like this, you have only proven your ignorance. We respect those of other religions, and the choice of some to leave ours. We want them to return, but we respect them. SHAME ON YOU for spreading lies!

            I see you have the same pathetic arguments as anyone else who claims what you do.

            This scripture refers to people like you pretty well:

            “Behold ye are worse than they; for as the Lord liveth, if a prophet come among you and declareth unto you the word of the Lord, which testifieth of your sins and iniquities, ye are angry with him, and cast him out and seek all manner of ways to destroy him; yea, you will say that he is a false prophet, and that he is a sinner, and of the devil, because he testifieth that your deeds are evil.”

            Helaman 13:26

            This argument could go on forever. Why don’t we just call a cease-fire, and be done with it? You obviously don’t want to change, and I don’t believe your lies. We won’t get anywhere.

          • O. Locke

            thanks for the personal attacks.

            learn to live with the facts. mormonism is a creepy cultish organization that engage sin campaigns of hatred against minorities.

            live with that.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • JMW

            “thanks for the personal attacks.”

            Back at you. You haven’t been exactly what most would call polite.

            Learn to admit when you are wrong. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is one of the most persecuted churches ever. I’m surprised we only made number 3. We have high standards, and are hated for it.

            Lies are spread by people like you all the time.

            “mormonism is a creepy cultish organization that engage sin campaigns of hatred against minorities.”

            Seriously? That is such a downright lie that I almost laughed out loud while reading it. That is so far from the truth it’s comical.

            I bet there’s a high chance you made that up on the spot. If not, you just heard it from another person spreading lies. It’s made even more obvious when you can’t even get the name right.

            I do need to apologize, though. I haven’t been very nice to you. Sorry about that. I’ve been trying to not react to being belittled so much by others. (Examples: pal, buddy, etc.) I hope you will stop spreading lies such as the ones you have said to me.

            Also, thanks for letting have the last word. At first, I was going to give that to you. No offense, but I’m happy I didn’t.

            (Seemingly) Random Fun facts:

            Gandalf would make a horrible school teacher.

            I purposefully went looking for a website like this so that I could defend my beliefs. It was actually kind of fun.

            Metroid is an under-appreciated game series.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            YOU made the personal attack. not me. I can admit when I’m wrong. I do it all the time.

            I’m not wrong about mormon-cult ideology being hateful and bigoted. you should take your own advice and use that new invention you might call “the internets” to figure out the facts you got so horribly wrong.

            random fun fact:

            the mormon-cult god hated blacks til 78′ then changed his mind for votes, ca$h, and a tax exempt status.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • JMW

            So much for ending the argument…

            Yes, you have been “attacking” me. Stop denying it.

            You are wrong about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. You have been all along. Don’t trust the internet. You should know that.

            We’ve already been over this. Almost everybody was racist back then. Some people in the church were. That doesn’t mean we made our doctrine racist, then changed it back.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I havent said a word about you personally. YOU are attacking ME personally because you can’t defend mormon-cult doctrine.

            the mormon-cult was FOUNDED on racism. mormon-cult doctrine says that blacks were against god in heaven and the mormon-cult denies women the same rights as men.

            you can deny it as much as you want but that won’t change the facts.

            thanks for the exchange, pal.

            you can have the last word.

          • JMW

            I can, and obviously have, defended my church. You just said a word about me personally. Good job.

            For the last time, Joseph Smith was not the founder, and we were not founded in this world or on such things.

            Our doctrine does not say that blacks were against God. It says that all who opposed God’s plan of salvation became did not receive a body of flesh and blood. Receiving a body of flesh and blood was the start of the plan, only those who accepted it were given one. Were what you say true, blacks would not be on earth in a physical form.

            Women are equal members in the church with equally important duties. If they were “equal” in the sense you’ve said it, then imagine a mom raising kids who also worked as a bishop. They would be INSANELY busy. The combined stress would be immense.

            Think of it as an asymmetric balance. Just because they aren’t the same doesn’t mean they’re not equal. That’s like saying 5 + 3 isn’t equal to 3 + (3 + 2). Women are indeed equal. Still don’t believe me?

            https://www.lds.org/manual/the-latter-day-saint-woman-basic-manual-for-women-part-a/women-in-the-church/lesson-13-women-and-the-priesthood?lang=eng

            You can deny these truths all you want. Just don’t spread all the lies Satan plants in your heart. He’s also known as the Father of Lies. Be careful who you serve.

            No offense, but what you “know” about my beliefs are things you’ve read on the internet. You really should learn what we actually believe, it might change you. Let’s hope this is the actual end of the argument.

          • Leeann H.

            Why can’t we just agree to disagree? I am a member of the LDS church and I don’t see anything wrong with it. I have MANY friends who are not LDS but I still love and support, even though they do not share the same values as me.
            Someone may say the sky is blue, but as a friend would say, “It looks gray..” That doesn’t mean they are wrong. Everyone sees things differently. If you see Mormons/LDS as a cult, so be it. I do not. I have found happiness and a lot of fun opportunities as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Insulting others DOES NOT make you any bigger or better of a person. Now, if you have any questions, please visit mormon.org or lds.org.

          • JMW

            Well said, Leeann!

            I wish people would look into the LDS church a little more before trusting the sources they’ve got those “facts” from.

          • JMW

            I would like to say, however that we had actually ended the argument just before you said this. It’s pretty lengthy, so I don’t blame you if you didn’t read it all. We had agreed to end the argument at least twice, but it looks like this one will actually be the end. (Phew! I was so sick of hearing such outrageous lies!)

            Please don’t assume either of us think insulting makes us “bigger” or “better”. That was a little mean. I haven’t been the nicest, but it’s not exactly “easy” to restrain unkind words in the midst of a verbal onslaught both in the real and digital world. I have been insulted, belittled, bullied, and gossiped about more times than I can count.

            I liked your post, though. I’m not trying to offend you.

      • Mormon in Utah

        No, I used to be an IRS agent. Most religions are 501c. This the system the Federal Government has set up. Also people expect it. It is just how the United States works. Mormons do not get subsidies except in Italy in which it is forced to do so. It gets tax deductions which since Reagan have not even been that good since you have to have a high rate on schedule A to qualify. you really need to do some research. Your are a typical ignorant anti Mormon.

        • O. Locke

          no, I’m a former mormon-cultists who understands the facts about the cult.

          thank you for your personal insults, pal.

          the mormon-cult should have their tax exempt status revoked.

          • Mormon in Utah

            If you choose to use the word cult in this day and age, you are obviously not very bright. The word is meaningless as applied to Mormons. We are not small and nobody controls our lives. We are not in a compound. Do you use the N word too. This is 2014 not 1946.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            the mormon cult was using the n-word for its members until 78′ before god changed his mind about them fighting against Jesus and having the mark of cain.

            Youre right about one thing. this is 2014 but mormon cultists think that monson can speak to god and that women shouldn’t have the same rights as men. what a hateful bigoted cult.

            the cult DOES control your life and they force you to tithe, too. SHAME ON YOU for trying to hide the mormon cult’s practices.

          • Mormon in Utah

            Most white people were using the N word in the past. The N word means black in Latin, or is slang for stingy or tight. I do not always pay tithing. Nobody forces me to pay tithing. The only time I felt as a Mormon I was in a cult was when I was on my mission. If you continue to use the word cult I will not respond to you. Jante’s Law.

          • Mormon in Utah

            Personally I feel Atheists, Gays, Catholics, Evangelicals, Mainline Protestants, Muslims, and Jews are more of a cult than Mormons. Mormons at least change and adapt.

          • O. Locke

            thanks for your input and mormon-cult apologetics.

    • harry coleman

      you are a legend in your own mind.That should be a comfort in hell

    • 123456789

      Dear Mormon in Utah: Look. I get that you are very proud. Don’t be. I am mormon too, and I know for a fact that you are not going to change anybody’s minds or get anyone to see your point of view. Saying your superior is quite possibly the most offensive thing i can thing of saying… so please, stop talking. Your giving us a bad name.

      Proving that you are right by making fun of other religions does not prove that yours is better. And religion isn’t about showing that you are right. though everyone else….. I don’t think there is a religion on earth that has a perfect history. And if you want to think about it that way, all religions started out as a cult. And I believe that there are other religions, such as islam that pay tithes. I do not believe that any one religion is superior to the other. So everyone on here, you don’t have to like the mormon religion, you can even hate it if that is how you feel. But don’t base that hate off of vague facts, and remember that no one religion is perfec, including mine.

      • Mormon in Utah

        Who made you my dictator?

        • 123456789

          Nobody did. You can say whatever you want to, I can’t stop you. But It makes me sad that so many people on this page are so hateful, one way or the other. Religion is supposed to help people, not hurt them. So no matter what you personally believe, the LDS church does not, nor ever has taught that we are superior. So I am not your dictator, boss, bishop, or anyone else that your supposed to listen too. But everyone on this page is human; we all have flesh and blood, we all have emotions. We all have different beliefs, why judge others, or yourself, based solely on that?

          • Mormon in Utah

            Joseph Smith taught that the Mormon people were the best people on earth and we are.

          • 123456789

            If you can find a single scripture in the D&C that says that mormons are the best people on earth then I will eat my words. But there isn’t one, because mormons ARE NOT the best people on earth. Those are false words, and part of the reason why we are hated. There are mean mormons, nice mormons, smart Mormons, and intelligent Mormons, and Mormons who are not the sharpest. You cannot judge anyone based solely on their religious standing, it doesn’t work. And if someone is not mormon, it doesn’t mean they are beneath you. That mindset will not help you with anything in life. If you honestly believe that anyone who is not mormon is inferior to you, then good luck: you are going to need it, because people don’t take to that attitude very well. People can think what they want about themselves, but please don’t put words into our mouths.

          • jordonn12

            JS was a pedophile and con artist and full of himself get your facts straight

  • GarryMoss

    Woohoo!!! We made number 3. Gotta love it. Like I tell my kids, “It doesn’t matter what anyone else thinks of you, unless they are right.”

  • dufus

    Because they’re a cult posing as legitimate religion

    • JMW

      Forgive my language, but that is utter bull crap! If you actually knew what we believed, you wouldn’t call us a “cult posing as a legitimate religion”.

      • dufus

        Oh POOH! I know EVERYTHING about Mormonism, which is exactly why iI say that. I have read the “BOOK” and my-in-laws, the wholehow 120+ of them are Mormons

        • JMW

          If you knew “everything” about us, then why do you call it “Mormonism”? We’re the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Do you mind explaining a few of our beliefs? What’s more, it’s called The Book of Mormon, not the “BOOK”. It’s another testament of Jesus Christ to go along with the Bible.

          • dufus

            Oh POOH! you should know your own beliefs

          • JMW

            I know my own beliefs and standards, I was wondering if you knew them, as you claim to know everything about them. That is unless you were bluffing.

          • dufus

            I told you, all my in-laws ARE Mormons and you should know they aught me well– You don’t need to test me. BE GONE

          • JMW

            So you expect me not to react when you claim I am part of a cult? Also, you are definitely bluffing about your knowledge of our religion. You can’t even get the name right. I’ve noticed you have a strong interest in poop, most of us don’t want to hear you voice that.

          • dufus

            Beleive and think that you wnat, after all, that IS what you do best and what is poop???

            NYC Conference on Mormonism & American Politics, February 3-4

            Read more at
            http://www.beliefnet.com/columnists/flunkingsainthood/2010/12/why-are-mormons-the-third-most-hated-religious-group-in-america.html#KM8m3l7tPrXSdQMY.99

          • JMW

            Back at you: “Believe and think [what] you [want], after all, that IS what you do best…”

            You are wrong about me and my beliefs. Please don’t harden your heart towards the Lord. He wants you to return to Him. He loves and understands you with an infinite capacity! He sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ to pay for our sins! The Atonement is real, and you can repent!

            I invite you to pray, with real intent, if the Book of Mormon is another testament of Jesus Christ. I testify with all my heart, might, mind, and strength, that it is true, and hope you one day learn that the true church has been restored! The Great Apostasy is over! This is the last and greatest dispensation. It’s no coincidence that the Industrial Revolution was at the same time as the Restoration! The Lord is hastening his work!

            He will not stop until every soul has heard the gospel truths, and has either accepted or rejected them. I hope you accept them!

          • dufus

            Typical judgmental of the Mormonisms. My relationship with God is my own business– not yours or any other male (or female) being just because he has some title of “priest” minister or other. Go proselytize somewhere else, buddy. (Another you people do.)

            This conversation is over.

          • JMW

            Typical judgement of the (Insert whatever you call yourself here). When did I, or anyone else, say your relationship with God was anybodies but yours?

            Also, the prophet, who I assume you were referring to, doesn’t claim that your relationship with God isn’t your own business.

            (Do you call Catholics “Bibles”? Just wondering.)

            You don’t need to spread lies about my church if you don’t believe it, just don’t have anything to do with it if that works for you.

            By the way, you need to work on making your posts easier to understand, buddy. There are extensive amounts of grammatical and spelling errors.

            I decide when I’m done talking. You don’t.

            I’ve been nice to you and others who mock and belittle me and my beliefs. My patience is thinning. Stop spreading lies, and I’ll leave you alone. Got that? It’s that simple, dufus.

            If you want this conversation to be over, just don’t reply.

          • dufus

            This conversation is over.

          • JMW

            I agree. This conversation is over.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Because you have had the snot beaten out of you in a debate.
            You have been exposed as a hateful, hypocritical fraud

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What did they do to you to make you hate them and us so much? Be specific.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            “Oh, POOH!” was added to the debate texts exactly when?

            Remember, CAPS on the internet is equal to screaming.

            Why do you feel the need to scream?

            Be honest.

          • jordonn12

            Nope CAPS ON THE internet is NOT screaming…that is what you choose to believe….wow in true mormon style….for me Caps on the internet is just emphasizing something…..so quit spreading the sheeps version that it is screaming…could you be anymore a lemming

          • harry coleman

            yeah thats why in the articles of faith it says you believe the Bible as far as it is correctly translated.Here’s a news flash slick..it is totally correct.The book of moron is crap

          • JMW

            The Bible has been re-translated many times, resulting in multiple available versions. We take that into consideration. That’s why it says that.

            https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2007/04/the-miracle-of-the-holy-bible?lang=eng

          • harry coleman

            You have done me a great service today.You have affirmed that normally intelligent people can also be dumb as a box of rocks.You really should research the method for translating scripture.Oh I forgot…morons aren’t allowed to question anything without being in danger of excommunication.The recent news( except on church owned ksl) are full of reports of that so you’d be hard pressed to deny it.I do appologize for having no tolerance for people that remain deceived by choice.I guess because I was once there myself.If you ever have a real encounter with Jesus and the truth it will change your life.All that crap that you’ve been taught is a lie.Be warned though…should you ever decide to come out of the dark you’ll lose family.friends,and question how they could be so stupid.Considering your eternity depends on it you may find it doesn’t matter.Following the REAL Jesus ain’t for wimps.It will cost you everything.However,He died for you because He considered the cost to save you from hell to be worth it. I do hope you find the truth.I have no idea why I feel such compassion for you…must be the love of Christ compelling me because I find most mormons irritatelingly blind.May you find the REAL Jesus.

          • JMW

            I follow Jesus Christ, the savior of the world. We are taught to do our best to become more like Him.

            I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is true, and that the Atonement of Jesus Christ is real!

            https://www.lds.org/

          • harry coleman

            You are lost and blind.I pray you’ll find the truth. I’m done here.The Bible says don’t cast pearls before swine so…I pray you find the truth.

          • JMW

            I have found the truth! I am sorry you don’t think it’s the truth, but I testify in Christ’s name that it is!

            https://www.lds.org/

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Harry, which one is totally correct? There is more than one.

            Specifically, why is the BoM Crap in any better or worse fashion than whichever Bible you choose?

            Christians world wide cannot even agree on Christmas and Easter. Orthodox Christians celebrate these important points on different dates.

            So who is correct? The west or the east?

          • harry coleman

            Only God is correct.that’s why we need the Holy Spirit tot each us in all things.The Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit.I trust that ay more than I will J.Smith.He was a womanizer and thief.I don’t hate Mormons just the doctrine.It’s so transparent if people will just do the research.
            East and West are both wrong…and right.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            And the Catholic Church is a cabal of child molesters, right?

          • harry coleman

            They certainly have their share but…so do the Baptists,Pentacostals and yes even the mormons oh… and athiests.

          • Eric Johnson

            and your vehemence with regard to them can bne found where, exactly, with equal amounts of vicious vitriolic languiage and intent? What would you like Mormons to do?

            Leave their faith, after seeing to closure and sale of their establishments’s assets worldwide, including the closure of universities and schools, and then walk away from SLC and Utah and all of that part of the Southwest, West, Northwest and Hawaii, leacing it all to whom?

            Those tithe payers who paid for most of it are dead. Add it to their estates posthumously and then tax half of it as straight death tax, inclusive of fees fines and penalties for not having paid it correctly in the first place?

            You have a campaign with no goals except to prove yourselves correct, which is very mastrubatory…. fun but producing no results.

            And I don’t have to prove anything, as you guys are those making monstrous allegations as if they were parking tickets.

            No institution can disagree with you or any other institution, especially in this case, Christianity, as in religion with zealots there seems to be only their answer, meaning your answer, even though religion is a matter of faith where there are no answers, so the religion of upstate New York, which is what Mormonism is, is just as legitimate as the religion emanating from Rome. And even in Rome cannot be settled upon, as the papacy was months moved to Constantinople, that which we know now as Istanbul, and there were at one point two Popes, one in Rome, and one in Avignon, which is in France. A very nice place in France, too, in the southern region of Provence.

            In addition to these two Papal Schisa, was also the Reformation, and the Spanish Inquisition, and the wholesale theft of Roman Catholic properties in its conversion to the Church of England for the sole purpose of sex life of a given King.

            So that makes the Church of England are Episcopalians extraordinarily more valid than the LDS church, right?

            Then there’s half of the world’s Christians who don’t agree with the other half of the world’s Christians, and those would be the Orthodox and the Catholics and Protestants and of course the Mormons, as you say there are doctrinal differences.

            But why such vehemence against the Mormon church among this particular group and just don’t understand. And so I ask the ultimate question from above:

            What are we supposed to do:

            Provide us with a map of the breakup of the LDS church. The entire 10 million people plus hierarchy can’t simply walk away, as the place would have to be shut down, and the lights turned off.

            Have you thought about this? How would that happen?

            The extraordinarily specific, so we can get the show on the road. Complaining about it isn’t going to do anyone any good.

          • harry coleman

            LOL have you been drinking??? You sound like it.I don’t want Mormons…or anyone else…To turn off the lights and leave.I want them to tell the truth about all the crap they hide and to realize joe was a false prophet.I don’t suppose that will ever happen.Btw it would be nice if all people would do that not just the religous.

          • harry coleman

            After a fit of laughter I have to admit you provoked me too think about what I REALLY want from Mormons.This is it.I want Mormons …and all churches… to humble themselves before God and admit they’ve blown it.I want the leaders to stand up and say ” In the past our leaders have blown it.We’ve taught false doctrine about some things.We repent before God and man.From now on we will tell the truth and follow the Bible.We will deal honestly about our history.” I know this is only a dream and most likely will never happen.

            A word about tithing.Before you ask…yes I tithe.Tithing is a spiritual law.It will work for anyone that does it no matter if it’s Mormons or any other religion.Like gravity it just works.

            This is basically all I have to say on this subject.God bless you on your journey.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Be specific with your allegation. Where in the scripture is this womanizing and thievery described.

            Be specific, as I am an expert.

          • harry coleman

            You aren’t much of an expert.I’m not trying to insult you but you need to read his personal history.You could google it.It’s isn’t scripture it’s HIS personal history..

          • harry coleman

            As humorous as our discussion is I won’t be able to continue for a few days.I have medical stuff coming up.I think I’ll actually miss this!

          • Eric Johnson

            HIS? Do you mean God?

            Joseph Smith is not someone whom I worship.

            And we were not taught to worship him. He is dead and the New president of the Church is the Prohpet of God.

            What am I missing, except your disagreement, which I am certainly not missing?

            Why so much energy devoted to “exposing” the LDS Church?

            What did thery ever do to you?

            Be specific.

            This hatred cannot habve it’s genesis in the fact that The LDS sect has different doctrine than other Christain sects.

            Other Chrisian sects have different sets of rules.

            Baptists aren’ttoo fond of Cathiolics, as well as Mormoms, and what was that objection to JFK? Was it not that he would be following the lead in the orders of the Pope and not following the laws of the United States and its Constitution?

            and as I keep saying, there’s half the world’s Christians, Orthodox, who celebrate major Christian holidays different days of the year.

            So for any one of you to stand here in this conversation and report that you know and hold the truth, which is nothing I’ve said… I’ve been attacking your attacks on the LDS church which are unfair and a waste of your time given how small the LDS church is.

            Where is your campaign against the Catholic diocese of Los Angeles and other Catholic diocese across the United States and the world, as the sexual abuse of boys does not stop at the US border?

            That church switched known pedophiles from being a priest for one set of Catholics to being a priest for a different set of Catholics in a different geographic location. Nobody called the police.

            Can you please find me any such scandals in the LDS church?

            and then would you please contemplate the question, “is the protection of active pedophiles better or worse than simple sectarian differences over which honest men may disagree?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            I don’t worship Joseph Smith.

            I worship Jesus Christ, and his Father, and the Holy Ghost.

          • harry coleman

            Hmmm someow I doubt you know the Mormon doctrine then.Which Jesus? Which Father.? I suggest you research(Honestly) the church historyand what the so called prophets had to say.It’s absolutely humorous.

          • Eric Johnson

            Sorry, But I have 14 credit hours of LDS study under my belt.

            Went to Primary and Sunday School.

            Just yell me what you want me to think is stupid, and I’ll context it for you.

            I’m not going to “research,” something you say I will find.

            Give me chapter and vers of what you find so humerous.

            Or you, my friend, are nthinh bnut a troll. The

            Why should do your work for you? You are te one who is demanding I belive something else.

            Up to you to bring the evidence to the table.

            I have been appalled about vhow little you guys seem to know about the LDS church, but then again, I have recognized this as a problem for the church since high school.

            It’s the same thing with marijuana. Most people have no idea what they’re talking about because they’re not involved. You clearly are not involved so you clearly don’t have any idea what you’re talking about.

            Further you claim to be an expert yourself, but you brought nothing to the table to show that you are an expert. What makes you an expert such that you can decide that the LDS church is less than valid, while every other sect I assume including the Jehovah’s Witnesses are just fine.

            I don’t hear you bashing Jews, who don’t believe there has been a Messiah, and certainly not Jesus Christ.

            And I noticed that the title of this article is why the Mormons the third most hated religious group.

            Why don’t you climb on the back of the other two?

          • jordonn12

            well not all the BOM is crap….remember all the plagerism that is taken directly from the Bible LOL…..how foolish can people really be

          • Eric R. Johnson

            True, it’s Pat Robertson who wrote a contemporary bible called the book, which he sells.

            LDS church gives away the book of Mormon.

        • Eric R. Johnson

          So why are you so upset?

      • harry coleman

        I do know your doctrine.I was raised mormon in utah.It’s all lies and bullshit.mormonism is just that…an ism.Oh and I say again…a lie out of the pit of hell.

        • JMW

          I’m sorry you feel that way. I have found peace in knowing my real purpose on this earth.

          I am trying to follow Christ’s example in my life. I have fallen short many, many times. Thanks to Christ’s Atonement, I can repent! I promise you, these are not lies! I testify of the truth of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ!

          https://www.lds.org/

    • JMW

      Sorry, that was kind of mean. Really though, what makes you think that?

      • Ivy Blackledge Whitfield

        You’re a cult posing as a legitimate religion.

        • JMW

          We’ve already been over this. You guys obviously know nothing about the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I could repeat all the arguments all over again, but no matter how many times I repeat it, it won’t change your foolish and uninformed opinions. Sorry of that sounds harsh, but it’s true. Btw, did you know I created this account solely because of the comment that claimed I was part of a cult?

          • O. Locke

            you are part of a cult. a hateful bigoted cult.

            as far as I know mormon-cult theology is the only cult founded on racial hatred.

            you should learn about your own religion before asking people to educate you on it.

          • JMW

            Again, we’ve already been over this. I know what I believe. Also, you need to get your facts straight. The amount of lies that I’ve heard from people like you is ridiculous.

            You’ve just proven you really don’t know what you’re talking about. If you actually knew what we believed, and still called us a cult, then you’re calling every Christian religion on earth a “bigoted cult”. Also, the church was founded on this earth more than 2000 years ago. Not with Joseph Smith.

            Christ brought the gospel onto the earth, and over the centuries, people corrupted and changed it, losing the power of the Priesthood (The power that Christ used to heal the sick, raise the dead, bless the sacrament, create the earth, etc.), and splitting into several churches.

            God said that he would restore the fullness of His gospel on the earth in the latter days. The prophet, Joseph Smith, helped to restore the Priesthood, and correct doctrine on the earth. God said that his true church will be the only church with modern apostles and prophets, along with modern revelation. What other church on earth has modern prophets and revelation? No others claim to.

            Before you start ranting about how we are “racists” and “polygamists”, and “bigots”, and whatever other nonsense, just listen to me. The doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is a perfect doctrine, but we are not perfect people. As people, we all make mistakes, and all fall short of perfection on this earth. Other churches have made mistakes as people, but I doubt you rant about them being cults.

            To finish off, yes, you are wrong. You don’t have to believe what I believe, but don’t hate me and my beliefs when you don’t actually know what they are. (Though you like to claim you do know.)

          • O. Locke

            the mormon-cult has nothing to do with Christianity.

            the cult ceased being part of Christianity when it decided that a grifter “profit” joseph smith had anything to do with god. just so you know, perfect and the cult’s name don’t belong in the same sentence.

            if you don’t mind ignoring your cult’s history of hatred and bigotry, that is on you.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • JMW

            The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints mentions Christ in the name. Of course we are Christians.

            We were always part of Christianity. Joseph Smith did not do any of this for a profit. You know that’s true, but you lie about it anyway. Satan must have a pretty good foothold inside of you. Just so you know, yes, perfect and the restored fullness of the gospel do belong in the same sentence.

            If you don’t mind ignoring the truth of what actually happened, that is on you.

            Thanks for being so misinformed, pal. (Not really.)

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I think the “profit” joseph smith #diditallforthenookie. you can close your mind to the facts but that doesn’t mean everyone else will.

            the mormon-cult is a hateful bigoted organization that engages in campaigns of hatred against minorities.

            thanks for your input and this exchange, pal.

            you can have the last word.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            We are now working with the profit Thomas Monson.

            The LDS church hierarchy is the business of trying to out-honest each other.

            This means it’s likely the most honest Church hierarchy in the world bar none.

            How is the LDS church hateful and bigoted, you keep saying this, but should give no proof.

            Are you saying that people and organizations are not allowed to have their own opinions in the United States of America?

            That does seem to be what you’re saying. Why are you so worried that the LDS church like pretty much every other Christian church eschews homosexuality? How to Southern Baptists feel about homosexuality? How did Southern Baptists feel about blacks?

            Is Sunday morning at 11 o’clock not the most segregated Time in the American week?

            Yes it is. Why is that White people in almost every church except the LDS church don’t like to worship with black people.

            So it does seem if you’re going to allege certain difficulties with one religious sect, you’ll have to accede to all of the difficulties of all of the sects represented in United States, Wouldn’t you think?

            Or are you singularly bigoted toward the Mormon church?

            Oh I just saw…, you will allow us to have the last word? So funny.

            That clearly means that you’re giving up, Because you cannot defend your position with facts.

            I love being an expert.

          • O. Locke

            creepy and cultish.

          • Amanda Altamirano

            Mormons can not forgive. They are straight up aligned against the message of Jesus and the cross. Want proof? Forgive Jodi Arias. A Christian can forgive. A mormon cant. And mormons are going to follow their leader Satan to their eternal home in hell. Their goods works are rewarded here on this earth and that is the total of their reward. They reject truth and believe a lie and go to hell.

          • K Tim

            What the heck?! Yeah I forgive her, like all murderers should be forgiven, but murderers also need to pay the consequences to serve the demands of justice. And you need to repent of your sins before you are forgiven on a spiritual level. I don’t know what you’re talking about, but I forgive you for being so insensitive.

          • T. Larson

            A Part of our church is the doctrine of forgiving everyone. So, that claim makes no sense.

          • K Tim

            I think most people are going to be more open to the
            facts and won’t close off their minds to them… but it
            won’t end up how you think it’s going to end up. The fact is
            this church is a very friendly and welcoming organization
            that it open to all who accept it’s teachings, which are
            true teachings. And I have to ask… do any of you know how
            to spell “Prophet” correctly? Sheesh!

          • harry coleman

            I’m reposting this because it’s important to be correct..and yes it was translated correctly.Galatians 1:7 there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.But,even if we,or an angel from Heaven,preach any other gospel to you other than what we have preached to you let him be accursed. Joseph Smith is cursed.I challenge you to pray for a real encounter with Jesus Christ.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            You don’t know your Bible actually because there’s a whole lot of stuff which is after Galatians… what about all those additions?

            Be specific if you are able

          • harry coleman

            Galatians is the reference I needed at the time.You state the obvious.Of course there is more scripture after that.Would you be more comfortable discussing the koran? I know nothing about that so you could be as arrogantly smug about it as you like :)

          • K Tim

            You’re a funny man Mr. Coleman. I hope you are humbled to awareness one day.

          • Mojo

            Right, and all those letters agreed with what had been taught before. They weren’t part of a different gospel.

          • K Tim

            Neither is the Book of Mormon. It testifies of the validity of the Bible and it’s teachings. Actually read the book.

          • Mojo

            I actually did. I don’t care if the book of mormon says the bible is valid. I also don’t care of Mohammed or Buddah think the bible is valid. I don’t care of Obama or Hitler or ISIS say the bible is valid. All I care about is that I have indeed read the book, your pathetic suggestion meant as a haughty insult not withstanding, and have found it full of lies, full of blasphemy, full of crap. If the Book of Mormon was so perfect, it wouldn’t get revised at every socially convenient opportunity. It would talk about your beliefs of becoming gods of planets yourself. It would talk about all the doctrines that you hold to that set you so far apart from the bible that you so magnanimously call “valid”, that you actually get from you D&C, Pearl of Great Price, and from every utterance of your head Prophet and CEO of your so called church.

          • T. Larson

            The book of Mormon is the least revised set of Scriptures on the planet.

          • Mojo

            ….except for all the revisions. And I know from personal expereince. I have several old copies of the Book of Mormon. Those are hard to find, believe me. But thankfully, we have the Dead Sea Scrolls to help proove the bible hasn’t changed, among many, many other proofs. Do yourself a favor, and so some research outside your church. You’d be surprised what you see.

          • JMW

            That scripture is correct. The Book of Mormon does not contradict Christ’s doctrine. It is more of it.

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/3-ne/11.31,32,33,34,35?lang=eng#30

          • jordonn12

            LOL yes more of it…given by a drunk, pedophile. liar and thief…the man Joseph Smith…Wow and your bought into it.

          • K Tim

            Now you’re also claiming he was a drunk? Um… you do realize these are Mormons that you are talking about right? Do you even know anything about us??

          • jordonn12

            The Bible strickly forbids adding to Christ’s doctrine…mormons ignore this

          • K Tim

            Actually… no it doesn’t. And if it’s Christ who commands the doctrine to be added upon, are you going to ignore that?

          • T. Larson

            That scripture was written before the Bible was completed. Get your facts straight, it’s not chronological.

          • jordonn12

            I would like you to listen to this video. How can you justify in your mind that mormonism is from God.? This just scratches the surface. There is so much information in YOUR own recorded church history that shows JS to be a deceiver liar and manipulator. Please listen to this video and respond. Google “Top 10 Mormon Problems explained” youtube

          • K Tim

            Except the whole point that the LDS Church makes is that its gospel is in fact the Gospel of Christ in its unadulterated form. And all it does is add Gospel teachings that are still in harmony with the Gospel teachings contained in the Bible.

          • O. Locke

            ummm… no…

            look, pal.

            the book of mormon is a creepy, cultish, and quite obviously fraudulent book written by a man that used it to “get the p#ssy”.

            It is sickening to read mormon-cult apologists attempt to square mormon-cult doctrine with real religion and religious texts.

            the mormon-cult is on its own. it stands alone as its own organization apart from any of the real religions. a cult founded on bigotry and hatred is NOT a religion.

            live with the facts, pal.

          • JStuart

            I encourage you to pray about what you are saying. God will answer to all those who seek with real intent.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I encourage you to learn about the mormon-cult before you go making ridiculous posts.

            according to the racist bigot joseph smith depending on my race, ethnicity, gender, or sexual orientation god might not want to have anything to do with me.

            thanks for the advice and your input, pal.

          • O. Locke

            Just one cruel hoax perpetrated on the followers of the mormon-cult:

            https://www.lds.org/ensign/1981/08/kinderhook-plates-brought-to-joseph-smith-appear-to-be-a-nineteenth-century-hoax?lang=eng

            If you question your faith you will be shunned. be careful!

          • jordonn12

            You don’t know ANYTHING about this Joseph Smith…you are too fearful to do your research into this pedophile and bigot…not to mention he was a liar and thief

          • anonymous

            he was tortured and mudered be people that said similar things think about that. people covered him in tar and shoved beer down his throat after putting tar in his mouth. Doesn’t that bother you that you are making fun out of a man that had all of that happen to him just for his beliefs. he was thrown in prison for preaching and was shoot after being chased through multipile states and you are saying he started a racist cult of hatered

          • jordonn12

            No it doesn’t bother me. Joseph Smith was a pedophile and crook. Use your brain and do some research. The mormon church follows a false jesus,,,,NOT the Jesus taught in the Bible. Your’s is a man made. Why would I feel sorry for a child molester such as JS. He is a con artist and thief…..again do your due diligence and discover the truth…oh I forgot your are warned against research and will be shunned if you question anything to any degree. A true sign of a cult…..

          • K Tim

            Oh my goodness… I do believe, you sir, have been brainwashed. First of all, Smith is was not a pedophile, a child molester, or a crook. There’s no record of that at all, and if there were any evidence of that, why was the subject never brought up by any court of law when Smith was alive?! The only thing his enemies ever claimed or charged him with was treason. Where you get these ridiculous and crazy ideas, I have no idea. Please show that you have some sense of reality and give some genuinely reliable resources to reference your claims. Oh and so are you saying that you don’t believe in the Jesus that preached love and peace to the masses? The Jesus that called 12 apostles to serve in his ministry? The Jesus that atoned and suffered for all our sins, pains, and afflictions at the Garden of Gethsemane and upon the Cross of Calvary? The Jesus that was resurrected after 3 days and who walked and dwelt with the apostles for 40 days before ascending again into heaven? That Jesus?? Cause that’s the one that we of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons) believe in. And that’s the one taught in the Bible. Which begs the question… do you not believe in the Bible? Because I sure do!

          • draco

            It is very possible that someone who didn’t know enough about scripture to test the spirits (Moroni) message against scripture to believe that the message was from God instead of Satan. If the mistaken party (J. Smith) believed the heresy presented by the demon Moroni to be a message from God then I would expect him to willingly endure torture for what he erroneously thought to be truth. Just because he suffered doesn’t make him right. You MUST test the spirits! Muhammad made the exact same mistake people. Except he didn’t get tarred. He just murdered and pillaged until he forced most of the Arab world into Islam, the religion of “peace.” Submission to Allah…try submission to ancient Arab culture. I mean, come on already!

          • K Tim

            Haha! You’re kidding right? You don’t know anymore about Joseph Smith than Nero did about Jesus! You have no actual facts to support your ridiculous and biased claims.

          • jordonn12

            Calm down K Tim……remember when MORMONS taught that man lived on the moon….can u really be any more gullible…..open your eyes….your cult teaches that Jesus and Satan were spiritual brothers…check your own history……wow and that is why the sane world says you are a CULT

          • K Tim

            Ha! You’re ridiculous. Our church doesn’t teach anything about the moon other than that the light of the moon is symbolic of the Terrestrial Kingdom. The light of the sun is symbolic of the Celestial Kingdom, where God dwells. The light of the stars are symbolic of the Telestial Kingdom, the world in which we live now after the fall of Adam and Eve. Those are the Three degrees of Glory in Heaven. In order from greatest to smallest, Celestial, Terrestrial, and Telestial. I don’t expect you to understand any of this, but that is what we teach, and that’s about all that we teach concerning the moon. As for your statement about Jesus and Satan, we actually do teach that they are spiritual brothers like you said. So kudos to you for getting at least one part of that right. But we say that because we believe that we are all spiritual brothers and sisters, and we’re spirit children of God, our Heavenly Father. And we distinguish God The Father and his Son as two separate individuals, which makes total sense if you actually think about it. Why would Christ pray to himself, and refer to his “other self” as Father, unless he wasn’t praying to himself and was in fact praying to a totally separate being. So seeing as Christ is his Father’s Son, and that Father is also our Heavenly Father, that would make Christ our Brother. But Satan is also our brother, along with a third of the hosts of heaven (or a third of God’s children). Many identify this third of the hosts as demons. And that third of God’s children cannot be redeemed because they chose to fallow Satan and willfully rebel against God. But everyone who ever came into existence, or who ever will, on Earth are part of the two thirds that chose to follow Christ’s Plan of Salvation. And part of that plan was to allow people to have the agency and ability to choose between right and wrong in life, so that they could learn experience and be saved, rather than be forced to go on one path that would save them (but not really) which was Lucifer’s plan that was rejected by God, hence Satan’s rebellion. Now Satan’s plan is to tempt people and try to prevent them from returning to God’s presence, because the devil is miserable and he wants others to be miserable with him, but he still can’t take away their choices. And if we choose to follow Christ and his plan of salvation, we can better fight off the temptations of the devil, and ultimately return to be with our Father in Heaven again. So naturally we teach to follow Christ, and take upon the name of Christ, hence our official name, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And that is what we teach.

          • jordonn12

            According to a Mormon-friendly and official Church-published source, Joseph Smith taught that the moon was inhabited by people that dressed like Quakers. With Philo Dibble, a close associate with Joseph Smith, as his source, Oliver B. Huntington wrote with significant detail:
            “The inhabitants of the moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker style and are quite general in style or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally, near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See’ whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see”1

          • K Tim

            Um… could you give me a link to this source please? This sounds a lot like the White Salamander crap that was debunked years ago.

          • jordonn12

            Oh come on you can google any of the crap your cult teaching from your own journals…you people are Afraid of the truth.

            As incredible as it may seem, LDS publications bear testimony that Joseph Smith, founder of the Mormon Church, and Brigham Young, second Prophet of the Church, taught the moon was inhabited.

            In an 1892 LDS publication under the heading “THE INHABITANTS OF THE MOON,” this interesting information is given by Oliver B. Huntington:

            “Nearly all the great discoveries of men in the last half century have, in one way or another, either directly or indirectly, contributed to prove Joseph Smith to be a Prophet.

            “As far back as 1837, I know that he said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do — that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years.

            “He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.

            “In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.” (The Young Woman’s Journal, published by the Young Ladies’ Mutual Improvement Associations of Zion, 1892, vol. 3, pp. 263-64)

          • jordonn12

            The mormon founders were nothing but a bunch of lying deceptive con artists.

          • K Tim

            Keep telling yourself that.

          • K Tim

            Newsflash! Did you know you can find just about anything on the internet? Not all of it is true though. I’m gonna tell you right now that I’ve never heard of either of these guys until now. Apparently they do exist, but they’re hardly considered “close associates” of Joseph Smith. They are each only mentioned once, at separate times, in all of the volumes of “The History of the Church”. Philo Dibble is said to have been severely wounded by a mob, but then miraculously healed; and it says that Oliver B. Huntington was ordained an Elder….. that’s literally all that is mentioned about them. But apparently a lot of people, not just Mormons as you say, believed that people lived on the moon back in the day. http://en.fairmormon.org/Joseph_Smith/Moon_inhabited Here’s a link for this. There’s no direct record of Joseph Smith ever saying anything like you said. http://www.lightplanet.com/response/answers/moon.htm here’s another source for my point. And here’s another one http://www.lightplanet.com/response/moonmen.htm There’s tons of rumors and lies that were and are spread about Joseph Smith, but a lot of them aren’t true, or have no way to be validated. I also find it a bit peculiar that your source is something as obscure as “The Young Woman’s Journal from 1892 volume 3″. You know if Joseph Smith considered this doctrine, he would have put it in like “The Doctrine and Covenants” or “The Pearl of Great Price”. But there isn’t even any real proof that he believed this moon stuff. You have here a third hand source from decades after the man himself died. Does that sound reliable to you? So obviously I don’t believe you, cause your not really going off of any reliable source or real facts. There’s no record of Joseph actually saying this. It’s a he said, she said situation. Play a game of telephone and see what happens, same principle. If you want to know what Joseph Smith really taught, read the Doctrine and Covenants. Or any other standard work, like the Bible, or the Book of Mormon. Don’t listen to the low hanging fruits that you get, cause they aren’t good fruits. Actually look at what we read on a daily basis. If you did, I don’t think you’d disagree that much with what we believe.

          • jordonn12

            News flash this is typical of mormons trying to side step teaching that can be found in historic documents…the journal of discourse etc….I would expect not less from a cultist…..the simple fact that your founder and Brigham young made these statement is glaring evidence they were FALSE prophets…your foundation is cultish…..YES many people thought people lived on the moon…big deal….JS described them for God sake…This is a huge difference…he is deceptive and liarand you bought into thie cult hook line and sinker

          • K Tim

            And this is typical of anti-Mormons to not support their claims on reliable sources and ignore the facts. You just said that Joseph Smith described these “moon men” even after you already stated that there’s no record of Joseph saying that. Only what other people thought that he said from a long time ago. There’s revelations that prophets give, and then theirs their own personal beliefs. Personally, I don’t believe that there are any men, or civilizations, living on the moon, but other planets many light years away, I personally believe that. And I believe they probably look a lot like us. But no revelations have been given saying something like “There are other human beings living in space. And they live on the planet closest to Alpha Centauri B.” – not a real quote. President Joseph Fielding Smith said that man would never land on the moon, but that was his own personal view on the idea. He did not claim this to be a revelation. If the prophets claimed these to be revelations, and were proven wrong, then they could be considered false prophets. But so far, all of their revelations have come true, and that’s a fact. You bought into the real lies hook line and sinker. Don’t be afraid to actually read the Book of Mormon or attend our church for a visit to see what it’s about and what it’s like.

          • jordonn12

            I have never personally said that there is no record of Js saying that. People heard him say that they didn’t they they thought he said this. You and your false prophets and revelations…Continue on your merry way in that cult you are so addicted to……just remember the jesus you follow if a counterfeit as opposed to the REAL LIVING Jesus

          • K Tim

            Haha! Okay, I guess you “never personally said” this, but your dang source sure did! A lot of people claim to have heard Joseph say a lot of things, the ones that are harder to believe are the ones that come up years after his death, in journal entries ans such. Just look at the White Horse Prophesy. This is supposedly a prophesy that took place in 1843, given by Joseph Smith. It talks about the Saints living in the Rocky Mountains, and that the Constitution will hang by a thread in the last days, and that it will be saved by the efforts of the Saints. But the oldest record of it isn’t given until after the turn of the century. As much as this “prophesy” sounds pretty awesome, and kind of accurate today, I can’t credit that as something Joseph Smith actually said, cause the facts don’t substantiate it. I just want to point out that you’ve stated before that Joseph was a drunk, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen any actual record of him ever even drinking. There’s records about his father, Joseph Smith Sr., but even then he wasn’t known to have been a drunk either. And even if Joseph Smith Jr. did drink some alcohol, so did a lot of people at that time. It wasn’t until Smith received revelation on the Word of Wisdom in 1833 that they spoke against drinking alcohol and still do to this day. But my point with that is that you probably heard this from someone who heard it from someone else that they thought Joseph Smith drank a lot. But the facts really don’t support this claim. And I just love this idea of yours that we believe in “another Jesus”. Buddy, I’m pretty sure there’s only one Jesus that is the Only Begotten Son of God. And we believe in that guy. What? That’s your Jesus too? Well sorry man, I guess we’re just gonna have to share him. The only reason that you guys make this stuff up about another Jesus, is cause you don’t want to contradict your own logic. You say that all that people need to do to be saved, and obtain the great glory of heaven, is to believe in Jesus Christ… well I guess I’m saved then, and so is about every other Mormon out there. And then you’re like, “Wait! Um, but, um…. but you believe in a different Jesus…” Really??? Is that the best you can come up with? Give me a break! I’ll see you in heaven, buddy.

          • draco

            likewise, don’t be afraid to visit a good Lutheran Church. Be careful though, we wouldn’t want your mind to explode when confronted with the Law and the Gospel. LOL

          • Draco Welcovich

            It seems way too convenient for your presidents to claim personal statement when they are proven false but on the off chance something occurs the way they guessed, it retroactively becomes “revelation”. Cult, Cult, cult cult cult! Run away! Run away! Run far far away! But do leave your magic undies at home.

          • T. Larson

            I can also google chupacabras, and unicorns. Find another source.

          • jordonn12

            I’m aware of two articles that discuss this subject in Sunstone, Vol 7, No. 5, Sep/Oct 1982 by Van Hale and James B. Allen. I’ll summarize:

            1. Huntington himself did not hear Joseph Smith talk of moonmen, rather his 1881 journal entry quotes one Philo Dibble who did claim to hear JS say these things. “So at best the moonmen statement is a sensational, late, thirdhand reminiscence” (Van Hale, p. 14). There is no clear evidence linking Joseph Smith himself to the moonmen belief. But…

            2. It can be established that Joseph Smith’s brother, Hyrum Smith, and Brigham Young did believe that the moon was inhabited (as well as the sun). Further, a number of individuals did receive patriarchal blessings saying they would be missionaries on the moon. Brigham Young said

            “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening called the moon? …when you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain,” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 13, p. 271).

          • K Tim

            “So at best the moonmen statement is a sensational, late, thirdhand reminiscence” (Van Hale, p. 14). There is no clear evidence linking Joseph Smith himself to the moonmen belief.” Speaks for itself.

          • jordonn12

            Nope on in the mind of a delusional mormon that is justifing the fact that JS described the moon men , what they wore and the height. There would be no need to fabricate that someone that said this. There is way too much info on many fronts that the founder of mormonism is a conartist false prophet etc…..he made way to many prophesies that did not come true…Do you even know the definition of a false prophet….i am such you will justify this as well. Simple fact is you follow a false Jesus and sure as heck are not Christian by any stretch

          • K Tim

            For the last time, there’s no record of Joseph Smith ever saying anything about moon men! Why do you insist on ignoring facts, even when I clearly pointed them out to you like three times already?! You can pull this stuff out of your rear end all you want, but they aren’t by any means facts. I guarantee you that the prophesies that you claim were made and never came true are fakes. I’ve had anti-Mormons share with me some of Joseph’s so-called “false prophesies” before. And there’s absolutely no record of Joseph ever making these statements. There was one where Joseph Smith supposedly made a prophesy that the world will end in 56 years. I asked the man who told me for the reference for the quote he made and he told me “Church History, vol. 2, p. 189″. I literally took my volume 2 off the book shelf, and the quote wasn’t anywhere to be found at all on the page or on the pages before and after. The quote simply wasn’t there, and I am quite certain that it doesn’t actually exist. I went and told this man about the bogus reference and he said “That doesn’t mean it wasn’t there, it just means you couldn’t find it”. How ignorant is that! And you’re just about the same! You Anti-Mormons are full of crap and you know it. You have no idea what facts are, and you’re just beating a dead horse. A horse that’s been dead for years. Simple fact is you know that we claim to follow Jesus, so who’s to say we don’t follow him? I personally don’t know if you actually follow Jesus. Just because you say that you follow Jesus doesn’t mean that people automatically know that you do. But you can tell if someone follows him by their actions. “Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them” – Matthew 7:20. In other words, you will know the Lord’s followers by the works that they perform. If they are good works, then they come from good people or good things. “A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.” – Matthew 7:18. Have you seen all the good works that our church does? The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is among the top contributors for humanitarian aid in the world! We help out thousands and thousands of people who aren’t even members of our church. Is that evil? How could we do so much good if we were evil? You contradict the bible if you disagree with our good fruits being from good trees. “Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?” – Matthew 7:15-16. Basically this whole chapter tells you how to know the difference between good and evil, and between false prophets and the real thing. False prophets say wonderful and good things, but they don’t actually do them. They talk the talk, but they don’t walk the walk. Mormons on the other hand actually do walk the walk. I know you can’t accept that we follow Jesus only because we say we do, but if you see how we follow him based on our actions, maybe that would change your perspective a little bit. I’m telling you that we actually do follow Jesus, we are Christians by every sense of the word, and our actions prove it.

          • T. Larson

            He asked for a link, not a hand typed missive.

          • guest

            from the same piece….All things considered, the argument that Smith actually taught such things about moon men is probably not strong enough to use. While evidence suggests that Dibble was probably recounting things from one of his own experiences with Joseph Smith, it is not conclusive. If non-Mormons are going to appeal to Huntington’s claim as found in the official Mormon publication, they should do so with caution, context, and qualification….Heavenly Father created all things, heaven and earth some which we will not fully understand until we understand

          • T. Larson

            Wrong. When have you ever read a Mormon-friendly source? That’s not even the official name of our church.

          • draco

            Sigh… You just said in one of your posts that you believe the Bible…then you go and say that you hold to this belief in which Satan and Jesus are “spirit brothers.” You have to pick one or the other. Either the Holy Scriptures of the official Canon are true, or, the unscriptural words delivered by Moroni are true. By the way, Moroni fails the Scripture challenge. Scripture says we must try the spirits to see if they are of God or from the Devil. Using Holy Scripture as the Divinely inspired test by which we are to judge the spirits, Moroni can not be of God since he gave doctrine contrary to the Bible. If Moroni can not be sent from God the only alternative is that he is a fallen angel sent to Joseph Smith to spread false doctrine. One of your presidents, Lorenzo Snow said, “As god once was, man is. As God is, man may become.” You also believe that God has a fleshly body and is up in heaven with his goddess wife making spirit babies. That would imply that all life on earth did NOT originate the way the BIBLE says but instead it had very PAGAN beginnings seeing that we all sprang from a god and a goddess. Tell me, do you also worship this goddess figure or is it only the “flesh bound god” that you worship? Now answer this; How, in the light of this quasi goddess worship, can the mormon “church” call itself anything but a cult? And please, tell me that I don’t know what I’m talking about. This could be considered a challenge to a gentlemanly theological debate. I relish the idea. But, only if you are willing to listen to scriptural arguments with sound reasoning and proper logic.Also, if you don’t mind, if you happen to quote from your books, could you please list which ones so that anyone who reads our posts can tell the difference between actual canonized scripture and all the stuff that your “church” adheres to. Thank you.

          • T. Larson

            We didn’t teach that man lived on the moon.

          • E Wood

            Joseph Smith married Orson Hyde’s wife while Orson was away on a mission. Doesn’t that bother you? Look it up, if you dare. Yes, she was living in deplorable conditions while her husband was away, so Joe marries her? Why not just give her a better house and some food? Joe a prophet? Not a chance.

          • jordonn12

            No it doesn’t bother mormons…they stick their head in the sand and are blinded by JS dispicable behavior

          • T. Larson

            Read up on Joseph Smith from reliable historians and sources, then come back and we’ll talk, brother.

          • jordonn12

            Joseph Smith said that there are men living on the moon who dress like Quakers and live to be nearly 1000 years old. Since he was wrong about the moon, is it safe to trust him regarding the way to Heaven? (The Young Woman’s Journal, Vol. 3, pages 263-264. See repreint in Mormonism –Shadow or Reality? by Jerald and Sandra Tanner, page 4.)

          • Draco Welcovich

            Yes…moon men; they really do exist. I testify that they are true because it came to pass that within a certain day of a certain year in the southern most kingdom of the new paradise, man didst sendeth up into the heavens a rocket ship. And within the ship of rocket propulsion there didst abide mighty explorers, the first of their clan of star walkers who upon arrival on the shores of the moon found great evidence of advanced knowledge due to the extensive usage of invisibility cloaks. In fact, the whole of their civilization was cloaked by invisibility! …Just kidding! Lol

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            lol

          • Draco Welcovich

            Does my satire amuse you Harriet? Good. My work is done here. Seriously though, thanks for the encouragement.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Reliable sources? More like Pro LDS sources. Try this litmus test for Truth; its called the Word of God! You know, the Holy Bible? If it doesn’t mesh with the Real Bible, it isn’t of God. I like the part where it teaches about testing a prophet to see if he is of God or if he is a false prophet. Guess what…J. Smith didn’t pass the test. Surprised? Yeah…I wasn’t.

          • spencer

            ok in the cover of the book of mormon it states ” Another testament of Jesus Christ ” maybe you should read it instead of bashing a religion which you think is a cult

          • Draco Welcovich

            Dude, you know they don’t stick their heads in the sand…..they stick them in a magic hat! Lol! Because seer stones!

          • K Tim

            Um… that’s actually not true at all. There’s absolutely no record of that ever happening. In fact, there isn’t even any record of who or how many wives Joseph Smith had. There certainly is for say Brigham Young, but not for Joseph Smith. So you’re either lying through your teeth or you’re just ignorant to actual facts. You can’t just spout off about some event happening, and expect people to believe you, without any proof or reliable frame of reference.

          • Draco Welcovich

            “…without any frame of reference.”
            Yet you trust every word from the guy who thought he knew “reformed Egyptian”, thought the title pharoah was a name, thought the inhabitants of th moon dressed in the quaker style, didn’t let any one see those golden plates (touching them through a sheet doesn’t count…she could have been touching anything from tin to lead), and he dictated his work whilst gazing into a hat? Sure; sounds legit….

          • T. Larson

            His name isn’t Joe, brother. It’s Joseph. And no, he did not marry someone else’s wife. You look it up. He did have more than one wife. But he only had children with Emma. Many prophets have had more than one wife (in the bible). To completely restore the gospel, he was commanded to restore every doctrine, including paligamy. However it was only established for a short while, as Heavenly father decreed that it served it’s purpose in being restored, then abolished it.

          • Draco Welcovich

            I thought you said god is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Why would he say something is good and then abolish it?…I call shenanigans!

          • jordonn12

            ;yes too bad you weren’t trying to be more like the Christ talked about and taught in the BIBLE instead of your man made version…yours is the brother of satan……The Christian God finds this to be blasphemy….
            I testify that Joseph Smith is a pedophile, bigot, con artist and liar…as history has proved. It’s very very easy to do research but in you fear based cult you are persuaded to avoid using your God given brain to find the truth

          • Tanner Evans

            Care to explain how Joseph Smith was a pedophile?

          • O. Locke

            the obvious fraud Joseph Smith married children as young as 14 (that we know of). No child of 14 should be forced into marrying some guy who claims he spoke to an angel or any other guy old enough to be her father. Sick!

            this would get someone put in prison or committed to a mental hospital today.

          • K Tim

            Obvious fraud? Oh please! You’re obviously bringing your own personal hatred and bias into this ridiculous claim. There’s no actual record of that happening. You’re right, today this would get someone put in prison. But I wouldn’t be surprised if he did marry a 14 year old, because guess what, back then girls often got married even at the age of 12. This is one of those instances where changes in society and it’s accepted standards leave us confused, but all we have to do is look at the background and then it starts to make sense. And again, no record of any forced marriages, therefore your claim is again left invalid.

          • O. Locke

            whew! angry.

            calm down, pal.

            look.

            your defense of the obvious fraud joseph smith who only did it for the v@gina. Is the exact same defense moslems use to defend the pederast mohamed.

            I hope you’re not going to get violent like moslems do when you attack their death cult.

            And we should make sure we define “force”. the obvious fraud joseph smith DID in fact force children to marry him. In the same way you want to use time as justification back then it was the same as it is now. no matter how dubious someone would have found joseph smith, the disgusting racist and obvious fraud. they would have been forced to give away their daughters or end up in hell.

            shame on you for defending the racist bigot and obvious fraud joseph smith!

            thanks for your illustration of the brainwashed mormon-cult adherent, pal.

          • K Tim

            It’s obvious you have a very personal, unwarranted, and misguided hatred for this man. I wouldn’t be surprised if you yourself were once a member of the church seeing as you can’t seem to leave it alone. It’s interesting that you should mention the prophet Mohamed. I’m probably one of very few who believe that, much like Joseph Smith, this man has been wrongfully portrayed and labelled by his enemies throughout history. I’m one of those people that believe if you don’t get your information from a direct and reliable source, then you probably should do that before you make an argument. Neither of these men gave teachings contrary to what the Savior taught. Shame on you sir for being so quick to judge others that you know nothing about. I believe that you yourself are just as much a racist bigot like you claim Joseph Smith is. But I forgive you for your persecutions. You know not what you do.

          • O. Locke

            now you’re defending the moslems. great!

            creepy and cultish.

            I never asked for your forgiveness. yet, I’ll take it. I deserve your agreement.

            And I think you have it backward. YOU were quicker than clint eastwood in the outlaw josey wales with your judgements. And as far as I know the mormon-cult god hated people with brown skin until 78′. that means he hated mohamed too.

            shame on you for defending the hateful bigoted mormon-cult, pal.

          • K Tim

            “Creepy and cultish. Creepy and cultish. Creepy and cultish.” You know, the Jewish High Priests in Christ’s day said the same thing about him and his followers. When really they judged them too quick to understand the truth. You are no different. Yes I’m defending Muslims, because most of them actually aren’t a bunch of evil, no good terrorists that hide behind a religion to try and justify their heinous acts. Most Muslims are actually peace loving people just like a lot of Christians. And the Qur’an teaches that we should be peace loving individuals. Never does it justify the taking of innocent lives. And if you don’t see that, then you don’t have a clue. No I really don’t have it backward. You anti-Mormons have been at our throats since the day that Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ. You’re also being racist for saying that all Muslims have brown skin. Look, I don’t know why black people couldn’t hold the priesthood before 1978, no one really does know and you definitely don’t, but they were certainly allowed to be members of the church long before that. And all other races were allowed to hold the priesthood since before 78, which leads me believe that it wasn’t race motivated or about “dark skin”. I think it probably had something to do with something less obvious than that. I’m not sure what it was, but it for sure wasn’t about race, otherwise only white people would’ve been allowed to hold the priesthood, and that wasn’t the case. But let me clue you in on something you probably didn’t know or think about… in the Old Testament days, only those of the tribe of Levi could have the priesthood, and in the days of the New Testament, only Jews could have the priesthood. Does that bother you? It doesn’t bother me, because I know it wasn’t race motivated at all. There’s another reason, having to do with God’s covenants to his people. And we don’t have all the answers for this, but one day we will. Today however, every male member of this church can hold the priesthood, regardless of race or ethnicity. And if you knew anything about the church you would know that the women of the church don’t feel it’s necessary for them to hold the priesthood, because they have their own special, and perhaps even greater, calling within the family unit. Women can often discern right from wrong, and what and how to invite the Holy Spirit, better than men can. Without loving wives, daughters, and mothers to help guide the way, I think the church would’ve dissolved long ago. But that is just one among many reasons why women are so important. Anyways, just because you don’t understand certain things about our church, doesn’t mean that we are a “hateful bigoted cult”. The church and it’s members actually invite all people and every single individual to join and accept Christ’s full, true, and everlasting gospel. I invite you to investigate the church even further, and ask a reliable source like an actually member of this church and not some phony baloney, self proclaimed expert on it. The truth is waiting for those willing to seek it.

          • O. Locke

            WOW! Where to start…

            look, pal.

            for this to work you’re really going to have to learn a little more about your faith. you, like other mormon-cult apologists know nothing about your faith. it’s difficult to educate you on your faith and have a discussion about what mormon-cultists believe if you don’t even know.

            now, the mormon-cult is separate and aside from true faith. mormonism is a cult. I know it’s difficult to read but it is a fact.

            Christianity is a religion. Islam is a religion. Judaism is a religion. Hindu is a religion. so lets not compare these religions to any cults.

            mohamed was brown. I never said anything about “all Muslims”. you did. so in addition to defending a hateful bigoted cult founded on racial hatred you also have difficulty reading. okay.

            Here is the crux of the issue: mormon-cult teachings are obviously fraudulent,the mormon-cult was created by a pederast that forced children to marry him.

            those facts might be hard for you to read but those are the facts. learn to live with them, pal.

            thanks.

          • K Tim

            Look here “pal”. I’m here to tell you that you have no idea what you are talking about. And I think I made my point fairly clear. I can’t believe that you’re actually suggesting that you know more than I do about my own religion/faith/denomination. It’s complete and utter arrogance. You don’t know anything about our church! I’ve heard everything left and right that anti-Mormons say about the church and their so called “facts” of fraud, and it’s a load of bullcrap!! You just feed into the stereotype of every other anti-Mormon, going off of “facts” that either don’t even exist or have been stretched, twisted, and turned to try and make us look bad. The Jewish leaders and Roman officials also considered Christianity a cult. Just a little known fact, did you know that the term Christian was actually coined by enemies of the early church? They didn’t regard Christianity as anything other than an evil cult, just the way you regard Mormons. Okay, granted that you did in fact say “Muhammad”, but spelled his name wrong, and didn’t say that “Muslims” are brown. But how would you know what Muhammad looked like, given that there aren’t any genuine pictures depicting the man? This is what I’m saying, you really don’t know what you are talking about. I guess we can go off of the fact that Muhammad was an Arab… but even then, Arabs aren’t really even brown. They actually have fairly light skin. They might get a slight tan from living in a desert environment, but they really don’t look a whole lot different than most Caucasians when it boils right down to it. Persians on the other hand, and even more so Pakistanis, do have a bit more of darker skin, but not Arabs. By the way, I’m actually defending these people and you’re attacking them. Racist on my part or on yours? And for the record, you don’t need to educate me about things that I’ve been taught about since the age of 5. I’m not asking you to try and tell me what I believe, I’m asking you to stop acting like you know everything and get a grip. Knowledge about Mormonism isn’t just some hateful blog with little real facts that you look up on the internet for 30 minutes and all of a sudden you know everything about the church! I know a heck of a lot more than you do about this church, stop pretending that you know something I haven’t heard before. You’re just wrong dude! But you are right about one thing… Mormonism isn’t a religion, it’s our denomination… Christianity is our religion. We believe in God the Eternal Father, and in his Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. Sorry, but it’s true. “And it came to pass that I said unto them that I knew that I had spoken hard things against the wicked, according to the truth; and the righteous have I justified, and testified that they should be lifted up at the last day; wherefore, the guilty taketh the truth to be hard.” – 1 Nephi 16:2

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            this is going to be hard for you to read.

            mormonism is a cult and has zero to do with any other real religion. mormon-cultists stopped being Christian the moment they decided that an obvious fraud like joseph smith was some kind of ‘profit’.

            I loved reading as you muddled your way through your own logic. LOL! you should do the same thing with mormon-cult teachings.

            I will never understand why mormon-cultists won’t embrace their history. we all know it’s fake. you should too. It would make it so much easier if you stopped pretending some guy who used his authority to ‘get the ladies’ was some holy person. joseph smith was a fraud. you can read that in news papers from that time period.

            the racist origins of the mormon-cult are yet another area you’re going to have to come to terms with. I could quote the obviously fraudulent book of mormon but it’s pointless. you’ve been studying it since you were five (somehow I’m a little dubious on that claim). you should know that what I’m referring to is factual.

            you could of course search out what your ‘profits’ believed. I like brigham young personally. I’m sure that disgusting bigot is spinning in his grave because of all the people cursed with brown skin that are part of the mormon-cult.

            thanks for your input and the illustration of the average mormon-cultists that hasn’t got a clue about their own bigoted and racist beliefs.

            thanks again, pal!

          • K Tim

            Of course everything you read in the newspapers is true right? No? How about the internet? Or any other form of media? Funny, it seems people can spread lies and rumors in just about any way, shape, or form. And that’s how Satan deceives you. Now there’s some logic for you! I hope you can understand that much. Oh well, I’m not going to argue with someone who hardens their heart to the point of no return. Maybe someday you will see the light and the truth. It’s quite apparent however that I won’t be the one who shows it to you. I’ll go and preach the word to others that will listen. But I testify to you that I know that Christ lives. I know that Joseph Smith was truly a prophet of God. I know that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is Christ’s one true church restored again upon the earth. I know that the Book of Mormon contains, just as the Bible does, the fullness of the Gospel. It is divinely inspired writing that was translated for modern use by a man who could not have done so, especially not a man as unlearned as Joseph Smith was, unless he was called and ordained of God. And most of all I know that our Heavenly Father really does love and care for each and everyone of us, because we are all his children. And I know that the Holy Spirit will testify to what I have said, and if you read the Book of Mormon with an open heart and an open mind, and pray to know that it is true, the Spirit will testify of that as well. And I know that the Savior loves me and he loves you too. And I bear this testimony in the name of Jesus Christ. Amen.

          • O. Locke

            joseph smith molested young girls and forced them into marriage.

            that is a fact of your cult as well.

            who has hardened their heart to truth? me or you?

            I accept the facts that joseph smith was a racist bigot and a child molester. I accept that the current iteration of the church is no better with their treatment of minorities, women, and homosexuals..

            do you?

          • K Tim

            Let me clue you in on what truth is. Here’s the truth: You’re wrong about Joseph Smith. You don’t have any facts to support your ridiculous claims. When you say what you are saying and state that these are facts, you’re either lying or you believe the lie and are just spreading it further. I’ve sat and listened to the rubbish that you’ve thrown at the Mormons and Joseph Smith, and seen that you have failed to support these things with any real facts. And the “facts” that you do put up is all diluted and skewed against the church. What you’re doing, sir, is stretching the truth. But when you aren’t stretching the truth, you’re making flat out insane and totally biased claims. There is no ill treatment of minorities, women, or homosexuals in this church. I am a first hand witness of that, and you can only call yourself a second or third hand source of what goes on in this church. Our beliefs include that of marriage being between a man and a woman, and that partaking in homosexual acts is a sin. And most Christians agree with us on that, because it is clearly states as a sin in the Bible. But we only condemn the action of homosexuality. In other words, we don’t reject someone from our church simply because they are attracted to the opposite sex. If they act upon those desires, it is considered a sin and they risk excommunication if they do not repent. The same kind of thing applies for adultery and fornication. If someone doesn’t feel the same way, and think the act of being homosexual is totally fine, then why would they even want to be a member of our church when our beliefs contradict that idea? This is a unified church, which means division would be bad. It’s not a democracy, and we don’t change our doctrine. Things that God has said are sin will always be sin, and the Church can’t just condone sin… then it wouldn’t really be a church anymore. You have to understand that we can’t just go around erasing commandments of God. What kind of a church would we be then? We’d probably be a lot like what you claim we are now, but you’ve got things backwards. We can’t give into the demands of the world because they decide what it right. If God said it was wrong, IN THE BIBLE, then it’s wrong. I don’t believe that you are really a Christian if you support gay marriage. The church is not against gays, it does not support gay marriage. Marriage implies that sexual intercourse will be involved; therefore how can we support gay marriage if it means supporting something that we don’t believe in and consider a sin? The world can do what it wants, but that doesn’t mean we’re going to support it. As for minorities, which I’m assuming you mean races that aren’t from European/Caucasian descent, they are ALL welcome to join our church. It is not a sin to be Black. It is not a sin to be Hispanic. It is not a sin to be Asian. It is not a sin to be a Jew. It is not a sin to be middle-eastern. It is not a sin to be anything other than White. Skin color and/or heritage is not a sin at all, so we do not consider it a sin. And of course, gender is not a sin either. There are men and woman in our church (duh!) and all men and women are treated equally and given equal respect. We want everyone, everywhere to hear and experience the fullness of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Why else would we send out our missionaries to nations all over the world? Did you know that more members of our church speak Spanish than any other language! English comes in second. And that actually is a fact. You’re not going to shake my faith, Sir. And no amount of unsubstantiated gossip is going to change my mind or my heart. I know that this church is true with every fiber of my being. There’s a way you can understand. If you read the Book of Mormon and pray about it to know if it is true, and also keep an open heart and an open mind about it. If you don’t do this, then that’s your choice… but thank the Lord for allowing you to make that choice!

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            You’ve done it again. closing your mind to the truth is an option. But it just makes you look foolish.

            Now, I never made any statements out of line or incongruous with mormon-cult teachings. the mormon-cult is the ONLY cult founded on racial hatred. THAT IS A FACT. you might dislike it but that won’t change it.

            And I’m not trying to shake your faith. If your faith is shaky that might be because it is quite obviously fraudulent.

            some guy says he spoke to an angel, then uses the text he makes up to marry prepubescent females? I mean come on! joseph smith was knee deep in his followers young daughters.

            I do enjoy watching the flds. they embody what I’m referring to. they follow the strict teachings of the cult’s founder joseph smith. hateful and bigoted!

            As for the rest of your mormon-cult pieties. I feel that it is obvious that the mormon-cult should lose its tax exempt status because they continually justify their hatred and bigotry with statements like ” You have to understand that we can’t just go around erasing commandments of God. What kind of a church would we be then?” and “If someone doesn’t feel the same way, and think the act of being homosexual is totally fine, then why would they even want to be a member of our church when our beliefs contradict that idea?”.

            maybe people don’t want to risk being cutoff and shunned by their families because they are concerned about some ridiculous idea they won’t be able to visit their families’ planet (ridiculous!). LOL

            The teachings of joseph smith are ridiculous and quite obviously fraudulent. The hatred the mormon cultists feel to minorities is palpable. just visit any small town in utah with one of the blacks and you’ll see.

            shame on you for defending the hatred and bigotry of the mormon cult!

          • K Tim

            You know, I really think I don’t need to say anything more to you. Otherwise I’d just be repeating myself. You don’t know anything about our church and I doubt you ever really will if you keep your heart so hardened like this. Prophets in ancient times have said very hard things for the people to handle, and despite the fact that it was true, the people rejected them again and again. Even when Christ came, he was rejected and killed for saying the truth. Joseph Smith and his brother Hyrum were killed. Why? Because they told the truth. All I can say is that history repeats itself. And if you can’t see that, then how blind are you! Go ahead and reject this church, it’s not gonna do you any good. In reality, we don’t reject anyone, they reject us. Families are a fundamental and essential part of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and it’s plan for happiness. Is our fault if some family members will accept the Gospel while the others will choose to reject it? No. Those that reject it are what separate the families, not the church. We would love nothing more than for whole families to join our church and accept the Gospel of Jesus Christ in its fullness. But everyone has their agency. We’re not forcing anyone to join our church, they do it out of their own free will and choice. There’s a reason that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is fastest growing church in US History. And that’s according to CBN. The reason is because this Church is true, and people are starting to come to reason with it. This church has over 15 million members world-wide, and counting. The Mormon church is ever growing. This is fact. In spite of this, we are still persecuted by the world. But that’s more than fine, because it would be wrong if we were accepted by the world. God is not of the world, the world is of the devil. We only need to be accepted by God. So again I say, reject us and be accepted of the world if you desire so. But know that you are always invited to have the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and in its fullness, in your life. And it is only through this Church, the true and restored Church of Jesus Christ, that you will find it.

          • O. Locke

            the kinderhook plates.

          • T. Larson

            Your ignorance is a fact.

          • O. Locke

            kinderhook plates.

            you might dislike my words but there’s proof if you want it.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • T. Larson

            Every time we prove you wrong, you go back to the pedophile thing. He was sealed to one 14 year old girl whom he never had any sexual relations with.

          • O. Locke

            gimme a break, pal.

            joseph smith was a pederast that did it ALL for “the nookie”.

            shame on you for defending that, pal!

          • draco

            You may believe that Jesus Christ lives…so do the demons. The real questions are these; do you believe that He has existed as one substance with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit since before the beginning of time? That He is God made flesh and therefore is wholly man and wholly God so that by taking fleshly form He may be the perfect mediator between God the Father and the sons and daughters of Adam. That Jesus is not spirit child made flesh and then made god? Do you deny the false teaching that Jesus and Satan are brothers? Do you accept that Jesus Christ cried “It is FINISHED” when He sacrificed Himself on the cross for atonement for your sins and that 3 days later He rose again from the dead, that He ascended into Heaven (witnessed by over 500 men) and is coming again to judge the living and the dead?

          • K Tim

            No where in the Bible does it state that the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit are the same being. You may interpret it as such, but it is not really stated that way. We believe that God the Father, his Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate and distinct beings. They are described as being “One” because they are one in the same purpose, meaning that they do not deviate from each other. They are completely and perfectly in sync. “I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. Then said they unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.” – John 8:18-19. You would probably interpret this as saying that Jesus is telling the people that He is The Father, but he’s not saying that. He says that He is testifying of Himself, and He also says that the Father testifies of Him. The Son is testifying of Himself. The Father is not testifying of the Father, the Father is testifying of the Son. Christ is saying that if you really knew the Father, then you would know that the Father sent me and that he testifies of me. He is not saying that He is the Father, He is saying that He is like unto the Father, enough that it is hard to distinguish the two based upon their goals and desires, because they desire the same thing… Eternal Salvation for all mankind. They think alike and do as the other would do. The same with the Holy Ghost. Does it make sense that Christ would pray to Himself when He says that He is praying to His Father in the Garden of Gethsemane? What about this?… “And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.” – Luke 23:46. How could He commend His Spirit into His own hands? It doesn’t make sense! You only complicate things further when you say that they are the same being, because they clearly aren’t. So we worship God the Father, we believe in Jesus Christ (His only begotten Son), and we trust in the Holy Ghost. I think most people would agree that this is a major standard for Christianity. We follow Christ, aka we are Christians. Just because you interpret the Bible one way, doesn’t mean it’s the correct way. This is why the Book of Mormon is necessary, to help clarify what the Bible is truly saying and to give another witness of Christ. Pretty much what I’m saying is that the Book of Mormon tells us the right way to interpret the Bible, as Christ would have us interpret it. And we do believe that Christ is risen from the dead, and that He will return one day and fulfill his role as our Eternal Judge. So that is what we believe, and that is what I believe. Christ is our one and only judge, not you, me, or anyone else; and certainly not anyone on this forum.

          • Peter

            Uh, yeah. We believe in all of that. Read.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Then why do you teach otherwise? Why does the LDS teach a “god & goddess” heresy? Why do Mormons teach the Luciferian lie that man can become like god? Why do Mormons teach that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers born of the sexual union of a god and goddess? ….here’s an idea; stop talking out of both sides of your mouth.

          • spencer

            christ said himself “and men shall call good evil, and evil good’ so give up man your making yourself look stupid

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            what Jesus Christ said has ZERO to do with the kolob cult.

            the mormon cult should only be quoting the pederast and philanderer joseph smith.

            but thanks for trying, pal.

          • Andrew

            There is absolutely no point in arguing with haters. Locke is obviously a hater. Draco, I appreciate your respect, but I also believe you are wrong as well. I’m a Mormon, and I believe it with all my heart. I will not argue with you; I simply wish all of you who are not prejudiced to read this and know that most of us who are Mormon have ample reason to believe what we do. Not all of us are perfect, but true Mormons love you, and want to help. If our church is not your cup of tea, so be it, but we won’t hesitate to share it with you. Also, point out all you want about the Prophet Joseph Smith. I do not believe the vast majority of what is written about him. Everybody writes lies about people they don’t like. Anyway, I’ve rambled on long enough.I won’t be posting again, because I don’t want to be part of an argument. I love my church. I love Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, and I believe in Mormonism.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I’m not a hater and I’m not the one arguing. intolerant mormon-cultists are the ones who are unable to deal with the facts.

            the mormon-cult is NOT my cup of tea. But that doesn’t mean I lose my voice in criticising their disgusting race hatred, bigotry against people who disagree, and destruction of families.

            kinderhook plates. – go read up on that, pal.

            thanks!

          • draco

            K Tim, you said; “Joseph Smith said he saw God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ.”

            The Bible says that no man may see the Father’s face and live. Also, did J. Smith claim that Jesus Christ is the brother of Satan or didn’t he? The Bible clearly states that Jesus is ONE with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Satan is a created being. He is a created angel that rebelled against God. He is definitely NOT eternal. He may be immortal, but he is not eternal. Jesus Christ is God made flesh not flesh made into a god. He is the Son who is the very Word of God and He has been from the beginning is now and will be forever. He is co-equal in power and majesty with God the Father and God the Holy Spirit, being of one substance. He is neither created or made. Satan was created. To say that Jesus is Satan’s brother is heresy because it gives Satan just as much legal right to the throne of God as it does for Jesus. Please K Tim, stop drinking the KoolAid and study the Scripture first. You will see that I tell you the truth.

          • K Tim

            The Bible also says that Moses spoke to God face to face. “The Lord talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire” – Deuteronomy 5:4. And also Jacob. “And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.” – Genesis 32:30. When a mortal man speaks to God he needs to be translated before he can stand in his presence, otherwise he would die. Translated means being made immortal in the presence of God. When out of his presence, he is made immortal again. It sound to me like you understand a little of what the difference between immortal and eternal is. I never said that Satan was eternal, so I don’t know where you got that from. He is eternally damned, but that is about as eternal as he gets. His spirit is immortal, but only because all of our spirits are immortal. Immortal is living forever. Eternal life is being exalted in heaven forever. Again, I’ll say that God the Father and His Son are two separate and distinct beings. Jesus is God’s Son. God is not his own Son. We are all children of God. We are all his spirit children. Every spirit is a child of God. Satan, who was once known as Lucifer, is one of God’s spiritual children, but he and a third of God’s spirit children willfully and knowingly rebelled against God. Therefore they no longer have any right to “the throne of God” or rather to be in his presence. They also did not have the right to come and be conceived and born on Earth to posses mortal bodies. Satan and his followers are only immortal beings as spirits. They do not in any way have promise of the resurrection. I don’t know why you guys don’t understand what I’m saying! Just because Satan was a child of God does not mean he is like Jesus. He is the exact opposite of Him! Our church believes that we all once lived in a pre-mortal existence with God. And this is when all this rebellion stuff went down. We don’t remember it because we aren’t meant to. We are supposed to rely upon our faith in God to be in his presence again. I only see that you don’t really study the scriptures as well as you imply you do. Otherwise you would know that there are instances stated in the Bible when prophets spoke to God face to face. And I can’t remember the last time I’ve had Kool-Aid, but I can remember the last time I’ve read from the scriptures… and that was today. Just like every other day. So don’t act like you’re my judge and leave that job for the Savior, okay.

          • draco

            Exodus 33:20 God said “And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.”

            1 John 5:7-8 – For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

            Spirit children who were birthed by a god and a goddess is mentioned NO WHERE in the Holy Scripture. By Holy Scripture I mean the 5 books of the law, the major and minor prophets, the books of poetry, and the historical writings that Jesus quoted and the 27 books of the New Testament.

            I challenge you to present one single shred of Scriptural evidence of a goddess.

            Satan is not a born child of god and some fictitious goddess, he was created. In the book of Ezekiel 28 we read; ”

            Thus
            says the Lord GOD: You were the signet of perfection, full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God; every precious stone was your covering, carnelian, chrysolite, and moonstone, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald; and worked in gold were your settings and your engravings. On the day that you were created they were prepared. With an anointed cherub as guardian I placed you; you were on the holy mountain of God; you walked among the stones of fire. You were blameless in your ways from the day that you were created, until iniquity was found in you.
            As far as Jesus being a “spirit child”, that is a lie from Hell. Jesus is the very Word of God.

            Also Jesus Himself claimed that He and the Father were one. “Jesus said unto Him, ‘Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip He who has seen
            Me has seen the Father; how do you say, “Show us the Father”?'” (John 14:9)

            My friend, I challenge you to refute these scriptures. Please open your eyes to the truth of God’s word. You obviously have great faith in the teachings of your “church” I only wish that you would have such faith in the words of God. Open your eyes. God does not lie. Angels and human’s lie. Satan’s army of disgraced angels confuse the nations with false doctrine. Joseph Smith fell hook line and sinker for one of Satan’s oldest lies…that we too can become like God. My friend, it didn’t work for Satan when he said “I shall become like the Most High,” it didn’t work for Adam and Eve when they believed it, and it won’t work for us. I don’t hate you. I don’t hate anyone in your “church”. In fact, you guys are some of the nicest people I know. But, many will cry “Lord, Lord” on the day of judgment. I will pray for you to see the real truth of God.

          • T. Larson

            You think Heavenly Father would speak of his heavenly spouse when the world already hates him so much? Would you do that? I wouldn’t want my wife persecuted like that. They are all one in purpose, not one in actuality. It makes sense.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Sooo, if your god never spoke of a wife, why do you teach that he has one. Let’s hear your programmed response. It doesn’t matter if I would speak of my wife or not because I am only a weak human. I am proud of my wife and would mention her at least once. Also, don’t attribute human weakness to God. He doesn’t fear his creation and if his goddess is eternal why would she have anything to fear? Your excuses are rather poorly thought out sir.

          • T. Larson

            Just saying, Moses saw Heavenly father and Jesus Christ, but their “eyes had to be opened first.”. How can they be one when they were all separate and present at the same time at the Baptism of Jesus Christ?

          • T. Larson

            Some of the earliest church members and missionaries were minorities, so hush. So as far as you know, you need to learn more about our church. I’ll defend anyone being attacked on false pretenses, including Muslims.

          • O. Locke

            oh, you’re counting white women in that number?

            because the mormon-cult god hated the blacks the way he currently hates the gays.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Hello Locke. I am just curious, do you think the Christian God “hates gays”? If so; why? FYI, I’m not a hater. : )

          • O. Locke

            Well the mormon-cult god isn’t the same as the abrahamic god that most people know and love.

            And if this article were not about the mormon-cult I might speak about other faiths.

          • draco

            Court records. Historical records. Oral tradition. I’d say that covers it. You won’t find those records in your Mormon “church” just like you don’t find evidence against ones self for personal wrongdoing being taught by any errant group.

          • T. Larson

            Oral tradition is the least reliable of any source, so don’t throw that in here. I’m pretty sure i can find records of bad things in any church. Everyone has a message. Our message is love for one another.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Hard historical documentation proves that J. Smith was a con-man. I am sure you know of the ‘Scroll of Abraham’. For crying out loud folks. Why will you not use your God given sense of reason? The original Egyptian scroll still exists. J. Smiths translation was totally incorrect. This is not a simple mistake. This is blatant deceit. Look, I don’t hate you or anyone in your organization or I wouldn’t be on this site trying to get you to see the where you have been purposfuly mislead. I care about you. God gave you reason to discern truth from false teaching…please don’t be afraid to use it. Compare the Scroll of Abraham to real Egyptian and you will see what I’m talking about.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Contrary to what the savior taught? How about “I and the Father are one”? Enough of that. New question; Do you beleive that God is not the author of confusion? If you do; you can’t possibly think that the ‘Book of Abraham’ is of God. J. Smith did not know Egyptian. He bought an old Egyptian scroll and wrote a religious work in typical false prophet style. The old copies of the book have a facsimile of the scroll with all of J. Smith’s anotations and ” translations” right there for all to see! Genuine Egyptologist, (the ones who have studied hieroglyphes for decades and can actualy read them) find J. Smiths work to be totally inaccurate and down right laughable. Listen, if a “prophet” is caught in such an obvious fraud, how can you possibly trust anything he “testifies” to be true? Don’t be afraid to question what you have been told all your life. If it is of God, it will withstand diligent investigation but, if it is of mans doing, it will always crumble before God’s truth. Just like the Philistine idol of Dagon, just like the altar of Baal at the hands of Gideon, and just like the golden calf at Mt. Sinai.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Are you familiar with the term “Luciferian Doctrine”? It refers to any teaching that puts man in a place equal to God. You know the LDS teaching about the afterlife ? The one that teaches you about your reward for being an extra special, super duper, mega Mormon? You know, the one where you get your own planet to populate, JUST LIKE ELOHIM! This teaching is by definition luciferian. ” I will become like the Most High.” (Lucifer) You do know that it was that inner pride that ultimately got him booted from the mountain of God…right?

          • T. Larson

            None of your claims even make sense. You’re claiming that a man who has helped thousands did it all to get into 14 year old’s pants? (which never happened either)

          • O. Locke

            I couldn’t tell you why a deluded bigot made up an obviously fraudulent cult.

            I think it has more to do with SOME people understanding they can dupe credulous people with circular reasoning.

            thanks for your question, pal.

          • jordonn12

            Mormon Article of Faith #8: “We Believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.” Why do you only add the phrase, “as far as it is translated correctly” to describe the Bible and not after the book of Mormon when in fact there are far more translating errors in the Book of Mormon than the Bible?
            If the Book of Mormon is true, then why has the Mormon church changed it? Examples are: 1 Nephi 11:21; 19:20; 20:1 and Alma 29:4. Compare these with the original Book of Mormon. (Gerald and Sandra Tanner have counted 3913 changes in the book of Mormon, excluding punctuation changes.)

          • SoybeanDoc

            When the average lifespan is 40 years, the young women began their married life early in those days. Now that the average lifespan is 70+ years, the young women are beginning their married life at a later age.

          • A-A-Ron

            You do know that people have been marrying at the age of 14 since the beginning right? A recent example would be Elvis Presley, who married Priscilla when she was 14… And the world labels him as “the king of rock n’ roll”. Do you think that the world (and your way of thinking) may be wrong, and Mormons are actually good people following the Lord?

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            mormon-cultists are following joseph smith. a pederast. if you want to defend men molesting your children, that’s your bag. hold onto that.

            And if you want to compare religious figures who are supposed to be moral exemplars to drug fueled musicians, I submit that you are correct on that front! they have the same level of morality.

            thanks for helping prove my point, pal.

          • A-A-Ron

            Look, “pal”,

            Contention comes directly from the devil. You have done nothing here except spread contention. Instead of lifting your brother up with love, like a Christian is supposed to do, you push everyone down. If you are so correct on your definition of Christianity, why do you overlook the fact the Jesus himself would act completely different than you do? Maybe it’s because you can sit comfortably behind your computer screen and judge people like a hero?

          • O. Locke

            look, bud.

            YOU defended and compared an avowed pederast (joseph smith – founder of the mormon-cult). Not me. YOU created the contention. I would never defend the heinous acts of pedophilia.

            Western laws are born of the European Christian traditions. If you think those are form the devil, that’s fine. move back to africa. accept western laws or leave the west.

            Jesus chased out the money changers. do ytou think he’d defend the pedophiles and the child rapists of today? somehow I doubt that.

            thanks for allowing me to clarify my position, bud!

          • A-A-Ron

            O. Locke,

            It was never my intention to cause any contention, and for that I apologize if I in fact did cause any. I will add my final $.02 here; I believe the devil has a huge amount of control over this world and is causing a lot of contention between people who really have more in common than they know. Being a Mormon, your comments have been pretty hard to take, but I am doing what I believe is best for me and my family and we are all happy. Isn’t that what everyone is trying to find anyway?
            God bless,

          • O. Locke

            Agreed.

            This whole thing is about finding happiness.

            The place where I disagree with the faithful (I’m referring to mormonism) is the place where I have to live your faith with you. leave your faith at home, find happiness with the mormon god at home. NOT in a legislative body.

            I think we would agree on so much that I always wonder why Americans have so many disagreements. I used to think it was a dark age and that’s part of it. The other is western decline. we’re turning in on ourselves and we’re destroying our culture, values, and our society and WE ARE ALL doing it.

            Don’t have any answers but I do wish you well.

          • A-A-Ron

            I hear you. I don’t know if your basing your beliefs of Mormons on the “saints” from Utah or not, but I am not from there. I am from Northern Idaho, and now live in MS. I tried living in SLC and hated it. The people there can be pretty ridiculous. There is so much religious tension in UT and the Mormons there are a totally different breed. Most of outside of the bubble are down to earth, good people who just want to live our lives like everyone else.
            All friends I made there were either non-members or from a different part of the country… go figure.

          • O. Locke

            This is going to be hard for you to read…

            mormon-cultist like you while being more accepting, compassionate, and even warmhearted and accepting of outsiders are the MOST bigoted against others.

            How can I make this charge?

            You walk the line between acceptance of fundamentalism and reform. you deny the reform in attempts to quell the hardliners. shame on you!

            the mormon-cult destroys families. this is a fact. I don’t lament it. I don’t question it. I know that any faith that pits man against man is false. fact.

            it is a hard and discomforting fact.

            It isn’t the slc mormon cultists that are going to do harm to the faith. it is going to be the moderates that decide reform isn’t necessary.

            now, the adherents to the mormon cult would be good folk no matter what the circumstances. the false teachings of a pederast demonstrated by warren jeffs and brian david mitchell. there are others I could name. don’t dictate what a person will do. ther isn’t a person alive that would do horrible things to people if they weren’t restrained by these evil bigots.

            your fast offerings were used to fund hate campaigns!

            SHAME ON YOU!

          • T. Larson

            Everything you said was completely untrue. If you want a debate, please use correct info for the benefit of all who read. Ther is no reform in God’s church. Accept that. God didn’t change the rules to appease the world. And as far as families go, you have no idea how strong LDS families are.

          • O. Locke

            I have some idea how strong the cult has conditioned people.

            we can take as an example. tell us about the kinderhook plates?quite obviously fraudulent.

            thanks for your input and the illustrative example of the strength of mormon-cult doctrine, pal.

          • T. Larson

            No one has tried to enforce LDS beliefs into the legislative system… We try to believe peacefully in our homes, but we are constantly barraged by people seeking to tear us away from our families. I understand that everyone has their viewpoints… so i’m not trying to make you believe like me. I just want to post the truth where there are questions like yours.

          • O. Locke

            utah.

            prop 8.

            you make this too easy, pal.

          • T. Larson

            Joseph Smith never was a pedophile or rapist, so check your info. You merely proved our point. You said we defend. You’re the one attacking. Jesus never attacked anyone. And if anyone was extorting money from the poor in one of OUR holy temples, i’d surely run them out too.

          • O. Locke

            the only thing holy about the mormon-cult is the obscenity of its fraudulent teachings.

            mormon-cult doctrine has ZERO to do with Jesus or anything resembling a real abrahamic faith. that is a fact. most kolob-cultists already understand that.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • jordonn12

            Everyone with half a brain know Js was a pedophile and liar…that is only one of the reasons mormonism is consider a CULT by many …you just refuse to do a proper study….the similarities between mormonism and islamism beginning is astounding…both evil and both cults

          • Draco Welcovich

            Jesus physicaly attacked the money changers in the temple. He openly rebuked the religious leaders calling them a brood of vipers. He called a generation fools because of their inability to understand that his death and resurrection is the FINISHED work of salvation. Jesus wasn’t Ghandi.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Jesus didn’t drive them out because they were cheating the poor. He drove them out because they were desicrating the Temple of God.

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            I think you, T., should check your facts, as painful as they may be.

          • T. Larson

            I don’t know where you’ve been… But Joseph Smith has been dead for a while. We follow Jesus Christ. Your point wasn’t proved at all.

          • O. Locke

            no. now mormon-cultist follow a new deluded bigot, monson, that says he speaks to god.

            if this is your faith you sure need a lot of educating about it. go look it up, pal.

            thanks.

          • Solly Llama

            It’s OK because Elvis. LMFAO!

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            so, having sex with a 14 year old is ok, because it happened before?

          • A-A-Ron

            Hey all, you can stop commenting on my ridiculous post because during this time I was struggling with my testimony of the LDS faith and after months of researching,I have decided to leave the church. My intentions here are not to convince anyone else to leave Mormonism, but I finally feel free from its grip it had on me. Being a lifelong member of this church, it warps your thought process around believing anything they tell you without doing any real searching. You can call forget about my crazy previous posts 😀 peace!

          • Draco Welcovich

            I’m glad you were able to shake off the mental shackles and seek truth. Have you found peace with God? The real Bible teaches that we can be assured our salvation by faith in the finished work of grace that Christ accomplished in His sacrificial death on the cross for the atonement of our sins and His resurrection from the dead. All of which He did for you for the glory of God alone. There is nothing that I nor anyone else can do to earn a place in Heaven. It is a gift. A free gift from God, not of mans works. Because of Christ’s love for you and me; He forgives all sin, if we have simple faith that He did what He said He did. Love God, love man, follow Gods instruction for life, and you will find freedom in Christ! Don’t forget to ask the Holy Spirit to guide you as you continue to study God’s word. May you find joy in Christ’s saving grace. May the Spirit of our Lord comfort and guide you. And may you find rest in the peace of God’s love.

          • T. Larson

            He didn’t marry a 14 year old. He was sealed eternally to another family through a 14 year old girl (voluntarily) because the family wanted to be a part of Joseph’s in heaven. That is what we know, you sicko.

          • O. Locke

            laughable.

            look, pal.

            joseph smith claimed he had a right from god to marry as many women as he wanted even if the women were married to someone else. this guy was knee deep in ‘follower vagina’.

            I’d bet my bottom dollar joseph smith would laugh to himself when he looked himself in the mirror.

            shameful…

          • jordonn12

            Care to listen to Sandra Tanners explanation videos on how JS manipulated vulnerable teenagers. Yes Js was a deceiver and liar…..YOU just won’t spend the time researching this. JS was a predator. Look you can keep bearing your head in the sand or you can look at your OWN church history to discover the truth. YOU need the the true Jesus that is shown in the Bible not the fabricated false Jesus you follow…Your eternity is at stake

          • shidoran

            You are so misinformed it’s sad and a little bit funny.

            Who made the bible? Who made the apocrypha? Who chose what was apocrypha and what was in the bible?

            What is a “christian”?

            Where are you getting your information? From Mormons, or from people who have read about Mormons?

            Perhaps you should be using your ‘God given’ brain a little more.

          • Draco Welcovich

            You read Hume’s works of philosophy; didn’t you? I’m pretty sure that Locke is better.

          • T. Larson

            History has not proved him any of those things. In fact, they have actually further proved that he was a prophet. Satan was a child of Heavenly Father, as were we, and Jesus Christ. In a way, he was our brother. Christ never belittled others because of their religion. He taught truth and love. You preach hate.

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            open your eyes

          • Draco Welcovich

            Satan was NOT born of god. The Bible..the REAL Bible describes Satan as a created being. Furthermore, your version of God is not Christian at all. It is by definition Luciferian because it seeks to elevate man to a state equal to God!1

          • Draco Welcovich

            And makes Satan legally equal to Christ since you teach they are brothers. Lucifer’s sin was thinking he could become like the most high. He was thrown out of Heaven for it. Yet your “church” teaches: “As man is, god once was. As god is, man may become.” (B.Y) YOU ARE TEACHING FALSE DOCTRINE! Stop saying you are Christians. You are not teaching Christian doctrine. You are teaching blatant heresy.

          • spencer

            ok have you ever read the bible because of what you have said so far is all lies

          • Robert Biteman

            No, I’m sorry, but we cannot be at the level of our Heavenly Father. Yes, we seek to become more Christ-like and to become LIKE our Heavenly Father but we never will be on the same level.
            I’ll put it into terms that may make sense. Think of it like this.
            I am the son of my father, right? I can aspire to be LIKE my father, and I can become A father, but I will never be my fathers brother. We will NEVER be the same in power and that’s where Satan got in trouble. He wanted to be in control and become the almighty.

          • jordonn12

            Joseph Smith restored NOTHING. Jesus Christ of the Bible did the finished work PERIOD. end of story

          • Melting Sky

            So you believe the mythology of your cult somehow has more merit than that of another cult’s despite there being absolutely no objective proof of any kind to back either.

          • Amanda Altamirano

            Bottom line is that you have to get to truth first. Everyone gets a chance. You will be judged on what you do with truth.

          • JoanRoberts

            Mormons believe that truth and belief, which they claim as knowing, are the same thing. So confused. They believe, they don’t know anything for sure and what they believe isn’t based on any facts.

          • spencer

            ok guys this is what we really believe
            1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

            2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

            3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

            4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remissionof sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

            5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

            6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

            7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

            8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormonto be the word of God.

            9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

            10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

            11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

            12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

            13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

          • JoanRoberts

            Spencer, this post is a month old. Really?????? None of your articles of faith are without question if one is false and it has been pointed out over and over again here that the 11th is not followed and most likely ignored or you would have no missionaries out trying to convert people. You would allow them their belief without comment or effort to change them.

          • FERIXON

            I’m only stumbling onto this article today so free to gasp at me posting a reply 15 days later….. I’ll wait. Go ahead.
            Ok then. Joan if you do not believe the Holy Bible to contain the word of God as recorded by His servants then you can stop reading my comment now.
            Since you’re still reading I’m going to assume you’re a Christian. So please show me where the Bible even so much as HINTS that the church of Christ should not send forth missionaries.
            We do allow all men to worship how where or what they may but that does not mean that we can’t offer up our belief and ask you to pray about it. That’s the goal that all missionaries have. To teach the principles and invite you to go to God to see if they are true. If, after doing this (and doing it with a sincere heart and having real intent) you do not feel it is true, then tell the missionaries and you probably won’t ever see them again.
            I have done exactly what our missionaries are asking people to do and have done it with all of the major Christian faiths. It’s extremely difficult and time consuming but more significantly, requires us to flex the muscles of humility that many of us are not comfortable using.
            If anyone believes in a God who condemns searching for more truth then I think there are bigger issues at hand.
            It’s really that simple.

          • JoanRoberts

            You assume a lot, don’t you? A person can follow the principles that Jesus taught and consider themselves a Christian because of that and still not totally buy that the Bible is the word of God recorded by his servants. Thinking people no longer see the world in such black and white little boxes. The fact that your missionaries approach strangers in an effort to tell them that the beliefs they may hold dear are not true is arrogant and offensive and is trying to interfere with that persons right to worship as they please. Your rights to engage me stop at my front gate and not at my door bell. Yes, one can tell them no, and shut the door but why should they have too in their own home? Door to door salesmen are all the same and are all offensive. There are things about the Mormon church that will never be accepted by non-members. Missionaries just arriving at the door, proxy baptism for the dead and the vast amounts of money that the church makes and still doesn’t pay taxes on property and buildings. They are all offensive and have a direct impact on non-members. Please don’t give me any more canned answers and instructions. I have heard them all for many long years. They are full of arrogance and assumption that is offensive. Just leave others who don’t believe your way, alone and all would be much better for everyone.

            One more thing. I find you less than honest. You say that you only” stumbled” on to this message today. How strange that you would “stumble” here in this remote and outdated thread with your very first post.

          • FERIXON

            “You assume a lot, don’t you?”…. is an assumption. So I guess I’m in good company.

            I challenge you to beware the double standards that you place on people. “Just leave others who don’t believe your way, alone and all would be much better for everyone.” Really??? So we should leave you alone when you have not done the same for us?

            The people in this church are trying to follow God and the Savior Jesus Christ as well as we know how. None of us are perfect at it. There are many outside the church who feel that we should be doing this “better” or differently. This description can be applied to members of every Christian faith.

            Additionally, like every other Christian faith, we must prayerfully interpret verses in the Bible as best we can. Verses which may be interpreted differently by other faiths. For instance the Apostle Paul, while speaking to the Corinthians on the topic of resurrection, poses this question: “Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?”….why indeed? I’m sure you can guess how we interpret this verse but I’d be happy to hear how you do.

            You say that “approach[ing] strangers in an effort to tell them that the beliefs they may hold dear are not true is arrogant and offensive”. A) Are you not doing this exact same thing? B) You’re absolutely right.

            It is offensive.

            But you, and I, are not the first people to take offense to this. After tasking the Apostles to go forth and preach His gospel, Jesus lovingly warns them that they “shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake…” (Matt. 10). He knew the sorrow and betrayal the Apostles would feel when others would cast them out when in their own heart and soul they are only trying to be obedient and helpful.

            The Savior himself was not always well received. After performing great miracles the people “began to pray him to depart out of their coasts.” (Mark 5).
            Lest I give anyone the chance to twist my words into oblivion, let me be clear that I do not consider our missionaries to be even remotely equal with Jesus in the power or motive of their teaching nor do I believe that they suffer persecution anywhere close to what Jesus or even the early Apostles suffered. But in some small way, I believe that our missionaries are rising to the challenge from which the rich young man shrunk; which was to “take up the cross, and follow [the Lord].” (Mark 10)

            I know this is a long post and I truly appreciate you taking the time to read it and I hope my answers do not seem “canned”. I’ll be honest, I did not have any of those scripture references memorized. :)

            You may or may not be able to tell, but my attitude has slowly changed between here and the first sentence. When I began writing I felt angry and combative. I now feel peace. I believe this peace to be a spiritual confirmation to me that the words which I am now writing are pleasing to God. You or others may disagree. But I would guess that you know well the peaceful feelings of which I speak. And if you do know, then you may agree that those feelings cannot be forged by the devil, nor can they be created from within such a fallible man. These feelings can only come from God.

          • JoanRoberts

            You dropped out of nowhere into my world, as you said 15 days late and combative as you also admitted. You have made two posts total on the Trib. That tells me a lot. I told you that your claim that you just stumbled onto my post was dishonest and I don’t deal with dishonest people. You are so full of the “light” that you make little sense and trying to make sense to you would be futile. Personally, I don’t care about your opinion. Be it about me or anything else. So troll for someone else to harass. You hold no interest for me. I prefer to deal with reasonable people. Clearly that doesn’t include you. I won’t be back to this thread so feel free to talk to yourself.

            Actually on topic, which you have never been. you are proving why Mormons are the third most hated group in America.

          • FERIXON

            You completely ignore every point I make and instead attack my personal integrity with COMPLETELY unfounded accusations of how I came to find this post based on how many posts I’ve made…. And I’m the unreasonable one.

            Clearly I have made a mistake in trying to have a intelligent conversation with you.

            Be well.

          • Sunshine

            It’s called personal revelation, we are encouraged to find out for ourselves through the spirit if what we are being taught is true.I have had this happen in my own life. It’s not debatable, a true testimony that you have gained for yourself is not debatable, it’s your own personal truth, the end.

          • JoanRoberts

            It can be personal revelation. It can be self-serving self-delusion. Everything that you bring to the table here is debatable. If you don’t want that to happen, then keep it to yourself. You don’t get to say when it is the end.

          • Sunshine

            I can say it’s the end when I’m referring to myself…..MY testimony isn’t debatable. I wish happiness for you, I hope you have it in your life.

          • JoanRoberts

            I have much happiness in my life. I have been very blessed, thank you.

          • Brayden Donkoh

            True

          • T. Larson

            It’s called faith, most Christians have it.

          • YOUSUCK

            you are right they did have the full gospel when Christ was on the earth! Too bad the people rejected it and killed all the apostles and then the church longer had anyone with the authority to lead it.

          • Draco Welcovich

            You do know that Jesus himself taught thousands and before the apostles died there were Gospel manuscripts circulating the entire known world right? The Gospel didn’t die with the apostles. Have you ever heard of a man named Polycarp? He’s kind of a big deal since he studied under the apostle John. You might want to read up on him. Theres also this small detail of the person of God the Holy Spirit. Perhaps you have heard of Him? He’s kind of a big deal too. You would do well to read about Him…better yet; try talking with Him. Ask Him to show you His Truth. Jesus said that He established His church forever and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it. There are thousands of ancient manuscripts of scripture and their stories match. No where in authentic ancient text does it mention the false doctrine of the false prophet J. Smith who’s “revelation” came from sticking his face in a hat. You know what else comes out of magic hats? Rabbits…magic rabbits that only the master of illusion knew was there. It’s kind of funny how the rabbit trick can only fool small children but the seer stone trick has fooled entire generations of seemingly cognisant adults! I just dont know what to say about that except…wow…just…wow………………,…,…………………wow.

          • T. Larson

            There is no end to the story. We’re still here. You think God would declare his work done with one set of books? God is the same yesterday, today and forever. He had prophets before, he has prophets now.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Have you ever read the part where Jesus was dying on the cross and cried “it is finished”? ….oh, where to start? Since Adam, atonement for sin had to be made by a blood sacrifice. When John the Baptizer saw Jesus he said: ” behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world.” (referencing a sacrificial lamb) At the last supper, a Jewish Passover feast, Jesus took the bread and after giving thanks, broke it saying “this is my body which is broken for you. Take and eat in remembrance of me.” The bread symbolized the passover lamb. Likewise, when they had eaten He took the cup and blessed it saying: “this is my blood which is shed for you, take and drink in remembrance of me.”this cup was the cup of redemption which symbolized the blood of the lamb that was placed over the doors of the Hebrews the night Death passed them over in Egypt. When Christ died the curtain separating the Hold of Holies and the court of incense was ripped from top to bottom by an unseen hand. This signified the end of mans separation from God. The work of salvation is finished. Christ did the work already. He ascended into Heaven and sits at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.

          • João Stricker

            I Am sorry, MORMONISM is an evil cult. You are speaking as a Child eho doesnt know on depth What mormonism really is ! Is a cult Totally fabricated for financial interests. Full of lies, that group of apostles as They Call themselves is a fossad of something that se really don’t Know where came from

          • K Tim

            Riiiight… the organization that is one of the most charitable groups on the planet for humanitarian aid is only “fabricated for financial interests”. You don’t know anything. Would the church be able to help the poor more if they had a lot of money and resources, or if they had about the same amount as the poor themselves. That’s the biggest reason for their “financial interests”, to help the poor and needy. An evil cult?! I don’t think so.Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. “Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit… Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.” – Mathew 7:18-20

          • jordonn12

            The organization that is based on lies and deception….of course you like to present yourselves as something different…YOUR FOUNDATION was started by a con artist a false prophet and pedophile…do your research

            Same goes for other CULTS…they are trapped in the lies because of FEAR/……they won’t do research because the know they will find the truth and then what….so they continue to drag more members of the family to hell. Here is some great info below that shows that some mormons have had their eyes opened and are willing to stand up for truth.

            “Recently, my family has been contacted by several caring members from the Ward, who have demonstrated a genuine concern for our well-being. The bewilderment that has been expressed, regarding our absence from church, has prompted a desire in me to relate the story of my personal search for truth and subsequent journey out of Mormonism. Hopefully, this account will provide you with some meaningful insight into our current status with the Church.

            What I am about to relate is my story only, as I cannot speak for my entire family. Faced with the explicit threat of church disciplinary action, I have remained silent regarding my historical findings, until now. Since I have recently resigned my membership in the LDS Church, thus removing the humiliating prospect of excommunication, I am now at liberty to speak openly of my journey out of the Church. Though my investigation is over, I fully recognize that, presented with the exact same set of facts, others may come to a different conclusion than my own. That is ok. My intent is not to convince, but rather to convey an ACCURATE account of my departure from Mormonism.

            First and foremost, I want to make it clear that my separation from the Church had nothing to do with unworthiness or transgression. For 38 years I was 100% devoted to the LDS Church. During those years, I never once questioned the truthfulness of the gospel. My faithfulness was clearly demonstrated by my service in the Church, and anyone who has ever served with me (in the mission field, in Priesthood Quorum/Young Men�s presidencies, Scouting, Bishopric, etc.) can attest to my wholehearted dedication and commitment. Indeed, I entered into my doubts at a time when I was diligently striving to live my life in accordance with every aspect of the gospel � weekly family home evening, daily personal/family prayer and scripture study, regular church attendance, temple attendance, generous tithes and offerings, faithful home teaching, faithful fulfillment of calling as Scout Master, unwavering support for my wife in her calling as Primary President, etc.

            MY DOUBTS BEGAN as I drove to work one day, listening to Living Scriptures� Dramatized Church History on CD. I can�t begin to describe the shock and disappointment I felt as I heard, for the first time, the reenactment of Joseph Smith taking Helen Mar Kimball as his polygamous wife at the tender age of 14. The account outlined the involvement of Helen�s father, Heber C. Kimball, in BROKERING THE DEAL, as well as Joseph�s promise to Helen that this step would virtually guarantee the exaltation of herself and her father�s family in the Celestial Kingdom. Helen concluded that her sacrifice was a small price to “purchase” such a glorious reward. Upon hearing this, my heart sank, and I wept openly.

            That very day, with my sensibilities still smarting from what I had heard, I resolved to discover for myself the correctness of the principle of polygamy. I immediately commenced a humble regimen of prayer, fasting, and meditation, in search of an understanding of polygamy. I attended the temple for the express purpose of gaining some small insight into the “new and everlasting covenant of marriage, including the plurality of wives”. I eventually modified my supplications to the Lord, asking for a simple feeling of peace to confirm that polygamy was acceptable in His sight, as I had given up on ever being able to understand it. I approached the Lord with as much faith as I could possibly muster, but my sincere and honest pleas for comfort and confirmation went unanswered. After three long months of silence, I concluded it was time to embark on a new search for truth – a search that would take me beyond the priesthood and Sunday school lesson material and beyond the faith promoting articles in the Ensign.”

          • Amanda Altamirano

            Exactly. Jesus’ words never left therefore never had to be restored. Talking restoration is a complete denial of Jesus and is straight from the devils playbook. If you do not renounce mirmonism and accept the true Gospel of Jesus, you will go to hell whwn you die abd you can die before you can count to 10. You are a fool to procrastinate and risk your eternal future. This life is but a fleeting wisp compared to eternity.

          • K Tim

            You do not have the right to judge the fate of others. That’s solely God’s job, and I do believe he will hold you accountable for that, but I do not claim to know your fate in the final judgment.

          • draco

            Yeah….about that; have you heard of the Holy Bible? You just might want to read IT before you start believing in The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, Or the ever changing word of your modern prophet. Hey everyone, did you know the Mormons believe that St. John the apostle is still alive? They believe that Satan and Jesus are brothers. They believe that if we are good enough then we can be gods of our own planet someday. They believe, contrary to ANY historical evidence or logic that the Americas were populated by people who wore metal armor, built castles, and were personally visited by Jesus Christ who gave them a “new” New Testament even though when Jesus gave His life on the cross He cried out “IT IS FINISHED!
            It is my duty to inform you that unless you read for yourself and stop swallowing the kool-aid, your soul is in danger. You profess a belief in false doctrine, you are spreading false doctrine, and since Satan is the father of false doctrine, you are by default serving the Devil himself. I love you because Jesus loves you. I am a sinner. We all are sinners. I hate NO ONE. But, I do hate false doctrine…as we ALL should. I will pray that God opens your eyes to the truth of HIS word…not a fable by the fallen angel Moroni.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Wait, don’t you also believe that the apostle John whom Christ loved still lives? The man whom CHRIST loved. The man who spoke with Jesus, was taught by Jesus, and lived with Jesus? The man who took the mother of Jesus as his own mother? I’m sorry…my God given sense of reason just went numb. Can you please explain to me how it was a convicted con man who ran from the law in four states was supposedly chosen to “restore” the church if the apostle John is still alive. Further more, please explain how John whom Jesus loved the most would have sat back and let the world live in utter apostacy for nearly 2000 years without the slightest objection.

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            Sounds like someone’s really got you hoodwinked.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Your founders stated “as man is, god was. As god is, man may become.”. WHAT!? I guess that goes into the whole planets as eternal personal property thing huh? That is not what Christ taught at all. You guys are either outright lying to everyone about your belief in the teachings of Christ or you are ignorant to what He truly taught. Other than J. Smiths plagiarisms of the real Bible, the book of Mormon is fiction…but, since so many people trust it to be Gods Word, it can more accurately be classified as a dangerous lie from the fallen angels that has led untold numbers away from Truth.

          • Draco Welcovich

            I smell canned meat…what’s it called? Oh yes, that’s right! SPAM! I smell canned spam. Its either canned spam or regurgitated heretical blasphamy. Either way, it stinks. JMW, you should study with an open mind, opened eyes, and opened ears. Most importantly, pray that the Holy Spirit guide you to God’s unchanging truth. You know something just doesn’t sit right with the LDS don’t you. Be brave enough to listen to the Holy Spirit instead of those who currently control your mind. I will pray that God gives you strength to do so.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            You don’t have the Church history correct, sir, so you seem to be lacking already with your the LFS church is a cult assertion.

            Jim Jones in Guyana was a cult.
            The Kids in san diego who cut their testicles off while awaiting the mother ship rescue is a cult.

            The Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh and his group in Oregon were a cult.

            David Koresh’s group was a Cult.

            The LDS church shares none of the aspects of these above groups.

            I just love it when I come across people who know nothing about the LDS church, It’s biggest PR problem, by the way, made worse by bald-faced lies from people who believe the LDS church cult, but somehow the church the belong to isn’t.

            Besides, would Jesus be so angry as you about people who care about their families and communities and countries as much as the Mormons do?

            By the way, they were on the move toward New Orleans well before the Hurricane hit with loads of people and supplies.

            Ask those flooded-out how they feel about Mormons. G’dead, I dare you.

          • O. Locke

            and the mormon-cult destroys families, shuns gays, gives women no rights, and was an openly racist cult til 78′.

            shame on you, pal.

          • Rachel

            My family is closer together beacuse of the church, all my relatives family’s are closer to together beacuse of it to. The people in my church are closer to there family’s, EXECPT those with family’s that disown them beacuse they bielive in the Mormon church WICH is wrong on so many levels. We aren’t given rules to shun gays, that’s only a portion of are people that a huge portion of are people disagree with them. I personally don’t hate homesexules but love them as I love everyone ( like you love a family not give love incase you take that in a perverted way). And as I love even people that hate us. I am also a woman ( well, sixteen) and feel as if no rights were taken from me. I belive and trust in God, he has been around far longer then us and is far wiser than any of us, that’s why I feel no guilt following my relgion or the prophet. And none of the people in my ward are racist.
            I’ve found only happiness from the church.
            And I hope you can find it to.
            I love my relgion, I love God, I love my family, and love every one

          • O. Locke

            just because you feel no rights have been taken from you doesn’t mean that you lost them while you refused to think.

            you should be able to lead a cult congregation, you should be allowed to hold the cult priesthood.

            and god has not been around longer than humanity unless of course you’re referring to the gods of egypt. although the gods of egypt arent the gods joseph smith was lying about in his ridiculous obviously fraudulent text he made up.

            And so you know, loving your family has nothing to do with the mormon cult. and if a cult is the only thing that makes you love you will eventually be miserable.

            thanks for your input, darlin!

          • Joshua Cade

            Well you aren’t really proving anything I have not seen any proof to back up what you are saying about the sexist, racist comments your have been making, also try some research, because it could be useful. But I am done arguing because I do not argue with snobs like you who go based off of opinion and no fact, also I have no religious preference so. Get over it. Haters only make things better just saying. Means that something is good or better than what you are so, you get jealous and start disliking it. Either way this argument is over, reinstating I do not argue with snobs like you who judge people based off religious preference.

          • O. Locke

            quite clearly a mormon cult apologist.

            thanks for trying to silence criticism.

            you are a great illustration of the problem society faces when dealing with bigots who are intolerant of dissent.

            shame on you!

          • Guest

            Actually, the LDS church does not “shun” or “hate” gays. This is from lds.org, “The Church firmly believes that all people are equally beloved children of God and deserve to be treated with love and respect. Church apostle Elder Quentin L. Cook stated, “As a church, nobody should be more loving and compassionate. Let us be at the forefront in terms of expressing love, compassion and outreach. Let’s not have families exclude or be disrespectful of those who choose a different lifestyle as a result of their feelings about their own gender.” And the LDS church does not take away or give women rights, and they dod not give or take away men’s rights either, that is the government. The church gives volunteer-based callings to both men and women such as Relief Society President, Sunday school teacher, Ward Clerk, etc… The church believes that God loves all of his children, and were always against slavery, although most early Americans were not. What you have to keep in mind that when the church was established, the 1800s, slavery was a popular and an accepted policy. Most members of the church were against slavery, and some blacks were able to receive the priesthood keys. This was denied blacks until the 1970s, right after blacks were given the right to vote. Blacks were never segregated in congregations or denied membership like most religions did. Today, black people, asian people, hispanic people, white people, whatever, all have access to every aspect of the gospel.

          • O. Locke

            okay.

            when the mormon cult stops shunning gays and destroying families that might be right.

            thanks for the input, pal.

          • Joshua Cade

            Well pal, I do have to say this. Until you can back up with evidence that what your are saying is true. (By going to an LDS church or something similar) you cannot say anything. I am not on either side of the argument but it is not right to judge people based on religion, race, or anything of the sort. So please if you want to hate anyone keep it in your head. Because I believe that is what we now refer to as bullying or cyber-bullying if you do target an ethnicity or religious group. Otherwise, have a good day.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            my statements are backed up by facts. all it would take you to figure this out is a simple google search. looks like someone came to the debate with an opinion formed…

            you should be ashamed trying to make yourself seem impartial. what is more is that the people here seem to have some kind of vested interest in the subject matter.

            you think I’m just some gentile? Do you believe that I’m just a bigot? who is more bigoted? a mormon cult adherent who refuses to accept that his cult is an obvious fraud. Or a man who questions the way his faith imposes itself on social life and laws in his community and wants it to end?

            the only cyber bully here is YOU. don’t try to silence me with unfounded allegations and vitriol because you disagree with reality. the mormon cult cyber bullied gay people when they decided to push prop 8 down everyone’s throat.

            SHAME ON YOU!

          • Joshua Cade

            And I am bullying you how? I still have not heard a fact just saying. Also, I am not on either side and am not giving a biased opinion. Maybe you should remain open-minded to things and give them a try. Who knows maybe if you went to an LDS church you would be happy about it and may bring your family together just don’t hate on other religions… I am non-denominational so… That kind of means I’m not a Mormon you would understand that if you looked at my religion on my Facebook page.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            you’re going to have to learn to read and not just comment. shoot first aim later, right?

            I answered most of your ignorant criticism in my first reponse to you. go back and read that.

            more than that, I KNOW you have some connection to the mormon cult which is why you continually refer to it as “LDS”. that aside, I won’t pay any attention to your facebook page because you won’t pay any attention to civility by reading and doing simple google searches.

            thanks for your input and the exchange, pal.

          • Joshua Cade

            I did read and have not made any sort of dissenigrating comments towards you, also, LDS comes from initials and I have seen it a couple times so I said why not use it. I also believe that you should take some anger management classes for your short temper which seems to be going off. I have no religious preference.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            you quite clearly have a preference. I understand that you mormon cult adherents don’t mind making misleading statements when it suits you. what is the old motto? “when in doubt recruit?”

            You can’t stand that someone exercises free speech and speaks out against the hateful, bigoted, and racist cult.

            The facts are not always nice to us. learn to live with that.

            thabnks for your input and the exchange, pal.

          • Tanner

            YOU HAVEN’T STATED ANY FACTS! please stop offending my church so hatefully. I dont go hating on everything you do without a reason, so please dont do it to mormons.

          • O. Locke

            the mormon cult is hateful and bigoted. those are two facts.

            I have a reason to criticize the mormon cult so get with the program, pal.

            thanks!

          • Jana Thompson

            Actually, smart one, those are opinions…look up the definition of fact and opinion. What you have said is your opinion…keep it to yourself.

          • O. Locke

            actually mormon cult hatred of minorities is a fact as is their bigotry and opposition to their quite clearly made up beliefs.

            you might not like those facts but there they are.

          • Jana Thompson

            And where did you get those facts…your mind? Made up beliefs? All beliefs for every religion is made up! That is how religion comes about!

          • MCW

            What “rights” do you have to criticize the mormons.

          • O. Locke

            the ones I use to criticize the mormon-cult.

            thanks for allowing me to clarify, pal.

          • Rachel

            Any logical person would either be annoyed at you for making so many unbacked up clames and sticking to them with complete irrationality, or they would find you funny.
            I find you funny, it seems the more you try to support your argument the weaker it looks. Try looking at all the information.

          • O. Locke

            no logical person would be annoyed. a logical person would recognize that the mormon cult doctrine is an obvious fraud.

            that is a fact.

            a delusional person would adhere to their nonsensical ridiculous beliefs no matter what proof is put in front of them.

            that is also a fact.

            live with them, sweety.

          • Jana Thompson

            A logical person would be annoyed! And since you believe that the LDS church is a cult no matter how much proof is put in front of you, then YOU are delusional. And again…from where are you getting these facts…I would really like to know. Because it sounds as if you are a child who thinks everything you say is a fact, whereas it is not. I suggest, if you want to find ACTUAL facts about the LDS church go to this website that is founded by the LDS church, so it actually has what mormons believe in, not this nonsense you claim to be facts!
            mormon.org

          • MCW

            Hay! don’t get so upset it you “facts” are really facts than don’t get so jumpy,

            If you had any sense you would stop arguing with made up facts about the LDS church.

            No one wants to hear from you unless you can come up with something intelligent.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I have come up with something intelligent.

            the mormon-cult is a hateful bigoted organization that has absolutely ZERO to do with Christ, Christians, Christianity, or reality.

            thanks for allowing me to clarify, pal.

          • MCW

            How have you come up with any “facts” all you are stating is your opinion.

            The mormons believe in Christ making them christian.

            If there is any christian religion that is really not christian it would be the catholic religion, because they worship Mary not Christ meaning they are Mary followers. (aka. not christian).

            Thanks for responding but you still have not stated any facts.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            mormon cultists believe in the grifter “profit” joseph smith. that makes them mormon cultists. those are facts you’re going to need to learn to live with.

            stop comparing the mormon cult to actual religions.

            thanks for your input and the exchange, pal.

          • MCW

            Look man, I don’t want to argue with you about if the Mormons are Cultists or Christians.
            We are both arguing with our opinions so there is no use in trying to argue the right or wrong.
            Some day we will both know whats right.
            Thanks for your response,
            MCW

          • O. Locke

            There is no opinion in the fact that mormons are adherents of a cult created by some guy. that guy was not Christ. that is a fact.

            but thanks for the exchange.

          • jordonn12

            made up facts lol…YOU CAN LOOK THESE FACTS UP IN YOUR OWN Church History recording…so what you are saying is the lds church made these facts Up???? Wow MCW shame on you

          • jordonn12

            no way man no need to go to a mormon church…they only show you superficial stuff until they hook you…they don’t tell your the truth until you become committed. another sign of a CULT….Had mormon neighbors that were heavily involved with that cult until the truth became clear to them. They have all sorts of horrific stories that the average ordinary mormon most likely is unaware.

          • jordonn12

            Guest, you don’t seem to have a clue about your cult religion. Perhaps you should do some research …..you will discover that your comments are very very inaccurate.

          • Rachel

            Isn’t the best reasearch being part of the relgion?!?!
            Of course I can’t talk for every member, but why the heck are you so convinced that every word that doesn’t fit your agenda is wrong? And reaserch? Do you really think the websites you go to have all the facts, beacuse I have yet to see one. Plus the against slavery thing kind of fits, my dad lived in south Carolina as he grew up and was part of the church, when people disrespected others beacuse of race he always looked down on it, but that’s not how the nehborehoods worked at the time, you could get killed if you were a black family that moved into a nighborhood that already had a black family.
            Plus, I have enough faith in my dad. He is a lot better then a lot of people, willing to help out those who are suffering. He was also smart enough to graduate college and get a nice job that he likes ( he does have some flaws though, I dont like being around him when he’s trying to fix somthing). He would never support this strange relgion you speek of that has stolen are religions name. ( and he shows no sign of hating gays either).

          • jordonn12

            Rachel all a mormon has to do is examine their OWN history…YES you can use websites to find the facts about your history as recorded by your own false prophets
            Ps hope you find the Jesus the real and only God…instead of JS man made version…you are in a brain washed fear based cult. where there is smoke there is fire. intelligent people willing to do the work are leaving the cult of mormonism…you are too fearful to do the work

          • Nathan

            I’m sorry, but there is a lot of revisionist history in this religion that makes me particularly distrustful of it (though I have never met an unfriendly Mormon). I don’t understand how the lost tribes of Isreal could possibly be the Indians since there is no proof of Israeli tribes traveling to the United States anywhere outside of the holy land i.e. Isreal.

            Furthermore, being part of the religion allows the best research of your source materials for your faith, but when blindly following, makes you its most staunch and unmoving defender.

            For the record, I have looked into some of your texts and did have a Morman friend. This friendship lasted until every conversation came to Mormonism claiming that God demands we vote conservative and that I was going to a lesser post if I didn’t shape up and vote right.

          • disqus_z08ked5aDT

            Nathan,
            Mormons don’t actually believe that the Indians are all of the lost tribes. You should read the whole Book of Mormon, it would probably clear that up. Also, of course God does not demand we vote conservative, that was probably just the opinion of your friend.

          • K Tim

            Okay, you’re just being utterly ridiculous. You don’t have ANY clue about what Mormons believe! You’re not going to accept that what we say we believe, and what is taught by church leaders, is actually what we believe? I don’t get it! I guess we believe something totally opposite of what our church teaches?? Does that make any sense?! We practice what we teach and we live what we preach, like all good Christians are supposed to. Imagine if someone of the Jewish faith proceeded to tell you that you don’t know anything about Christianity and what it teaches… that is what you sound like right now. They don’t know more about Christianity than an avid Christian, and you don’t know more about Mormonism than an avid Mormon. If you think you do, you’re extremely mistaken. And we are Christians. We took upon the name of Christ. The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-day Saints. The Christ taught about in the Bible, which is the word of God, as is the Book of Mormon, another testament of Jesus Christ. It literally has the name “Christian” given in the book. We are Latter-day Saints, and we are Christians. Period. Get over it.

          • jordonn12

            No Kim you just refuse to do any research on your cultish religion…THIS INFORMATION CAN BE OBTAINED IN YOUR OWN HISTORY RECORDING…BUT YOU ARE TOO LAZY OR FEARFUL TO CHECK IT OUT. JS WAS A LIAR AND FALSE PROPHET WITH OUT A DOUBT AND THE RELIGION OF MORMONISM HAS THIS AS A FOUNDATION…WOW COULD YOU BE ANY MORE GULLIBLE

            Joseph Smith, the founder of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, commonly known as the Mormons, claimed to be a prophet of God. Was he a prophet of the true and livingGod? There are two ways to find out. First, compare what he says to Scripture and if what the Prophet teaches contradict Scripture, then he is false. The second way is to examine any prophecies that he has made. If a single prophecy fails, then the person is a false prophet.

            Please note that having several fulfilled prophecies and even a single false prophecy still means that the person is not a true prophet of God. The test for a prophet is not if he gets them most right but all right. The Bible tells us . . .

            “But the prophet who shall speak a word presumptuously in My name which I have not commanded him to speak, or which he shall speak in the name of other gods, that prophet shall die.’ 21 “And you may say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’ 22 “When a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not come about or come true, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken. The prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him.” (Deut. 18:20-22). emphasis added.

            We can see that the criteria of a true prophet is not failing when predicting the future. This is because God, who is outside of time and the creator of the universe, makes no mistakes when he tells us what will happen. Those prophets whom he has called will not make a mistake and prophesy the future since to do so would mean the person is not speaking on God’s behalf. Therefore, if anyone claims to be a prophet of God and speaks in the name of God and gives a prophecy that fails, then the person is not of God.

            Did Joseph Smith make any prophecies? Yes, he did. Here are just a few of his false prophecies.

            False prophecies of Joseph Smith

            History of the Church

            Prophecy about Jesus’ return within 56 years–“President Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion–our trials, sufferings; and said God had not designed all this for nothing, but He had it in remembrance yet; and it was the will of God that those who went to Zion, with a determination to lay down their lives, if necessary, should be ordained to the ministry, and go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, for the coming of the Lord, which was nigh–even fifty-six years should wind up the scene.” (History of the Church, vol. 2, p. 189). See context.

            Jesus did not return within fifty-six years when 1891 arrived.

            Doctrine and Covenants

            Prophecy that the temple would be built in Missouri within Smith’s Generation–“Yea, the word of the Lord concerning his church, established in the last days for the restoration of his people, as he has spoken by the mouth of his prophets, and for the gathering of his saints to stand upon Mount Zion,i which shall be the city of New Jerusalem. 3 Which city shall be built, beginning at the temple lot, which is appointed by the finger of the Lord, in the western boundaries of the State of Missouri, and dedicated by the hand of Joseph Smith, Jun., and others with whom the Lord was well pleased. 4 Verily this is the word of the Lord, that the city New Jerusalem shall be built by the gathering of the saints, beginning at this place, even the place of the temple, which temple shall be reared in this generation. 5 For verily this generation shall not all pass away until an house shall be built unto the Lord, and a cloud shall rest upon it, which cloud shall be even the glory of the Lord, which shall fill the house . . . 31 Therefore, as I said concerning the sons of Moses for the sons of Moses and also the sons of Aaron shall offer an acceptable offering and sacrifice in the house of the Lord, which house shall be built unto the Lord in this generation, upon the consecrated spot as I have appointed.” (Doctrines and Covenants 84:2-5,31.) See context.

            The Mormons were driven out of Jackson County in 1833. They were not gathered there in accordance to this prophecy dealing with building the temple.

            The prophecy clearly states that the generation present when the prophecy was given would not pass away until the temple was built at the western boundaries of the state of Missouri which is in Independence. This clearly failed.

            All Nations would be involved in the American Civil War–“Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls;2 And the time will come that war will be poured out upon all nations, beginning at this place. 3 For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain, as it is called, and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations,” (Doctrine and Covenants 87:1-3). See context.

            This is clearly another false prophecy since all nations did not get involved in the American Civil War.

            Prophesy that the earth will tremble and the sun be hidden in “not many days”: “For not many days hence and the earth shall tremble and reel to and fro as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face, and shall refuse to give light; and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from off a fig-tree,” (Doctrine and Covenants 88:87) See context.

            The sun hasn’t yet been hidden nor has the moon hidden its face.

            This prophecy was given on 12/27/1832. “Not many days hence”? Since the writing of this article on 6/22/06, it has been 63,364 days or 173 years, 5 months, 26 days. I think that 63,364 days is more than “not many days”.

            For reference to January 1, 2000 it was 61,000 days (even), or 167 years, 5 days.

            Pearl of Great Price

            Prophecy that Isaiah 11 was about to be fulfilled–“In addition to these, he quoted the eleventh chapter of Isaiah, saying that it was about to be fulfilled. He quoted also the third chapter of Acts, twenty-second and twenty-third verses, precisely as they stand in our New Testament. He said that that prophet was Christ; but the day had not yet come when ‘they who would not hear his voice should be cut off from among the people,’ but soon would come,” (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, History, verse 40). See context.

            Isaiah 11:6-9 says, “And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the kid, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze; Their young will lie down together; And the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8And the nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper’s den. 9They will not hurt or destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord As the waters cover the sea.”

            This has not yet been fulfilled. The wolf is not dwelling with the lamb, the calf and the lion are not together, nor are the cow and bear grazing together. The lion is not eating straw like an ox. Nursing children are not playing in the dens of cobras.

          • jordonn12

            yes one thing about the mormon is that they constantly change things when it suits there agenda…..

          • jordonn12

            You don’t have the Church history correct, sir, so you seem to be lacking already with your the LFS church is a cult assertion.

            Jim Jones in Guyana was a cult.
            The Kids in san diego who cut their testicles off while awaiting the mother ship rescue is a cult.

            The Bhagwan Sri Rajneesh and his group in Oregon were a cult.

            David Koresh’s group was a Cult.

            The LDS church shares none of the aspects of these above groups. YES EXCEPT IT’S FOUNDER JOSEPH SMITH WAS A KNOW PEDOPHILE, LIAR, CON ARTIST AND DRUNK….AGAIN SO YOUR RESEARCH

          • João Stricker

            You are wrong ! Mormonism is a cult exactly all the others. Is much more dangerous because They are Wolves and You know the Lást sentence. Evil people , liars, They deceive their members posing as good people but They know They sre lying

          • Rachel

            Funny thing, there is more evidence that catholics aren’t christians then that Mormons aren’t christians. In fact we follow the teachings of CHRIST ( CHRISTian) where as the Catholics follow the teachings of mosses, might have been a diffrent prophet though.

          • O. Locke

            “they’re not doing it whay should we”? lets focus on the mormon-cult.

            you do what so many mormon cult apologists like doing. deflect criticism by comparing joseph smith to david koresh. you should be ashamed of yourself.

            thanks for your input, darling.

          • Rachel

            David kioresh? I’m ashamed of many things, aren’t we all? My religons not one of them. I don’t have to justify that to anyone, nor do I have to justify its doctrines. We all have the right to search for truths and belive what we want and feel to be true. But we should also be opened minded ( no offense, you seem to lack that in this situation( and of course your going to want to redirect that statment back to me, I have put much consideration into this matter, belive it or not, I don’t blindly fallow my church. There is lots I have seen in my church that I don’t agree with and don’t like, but I have seen far to much good to listen to people who do nothing but hate us and want us out.) I have considerd wither or not my religon is true or not and if the good out ways the bad. I have come to my decision, and have considerd everything. I suggest you look at all the facts, not just the ones that fallow your agenda.
            ( just came up with a good sittution campasion for that) can a man standing outside the house, never going in, only able to see threw one window, tell the man who owns the house that he knows more about it then him?

          • O. Locke

            you should look at the facts that don’t prove the conclusion you’ve already come to.

            mormon cult doctrine is racist and bigoted. if you want to follow a racist faith that is up to you.

            thanks for your input, darlin!

          • jordonn12

            yes they know they are racist and bigot but when you are in a Fear based cult…ie if you leave it your family will disown you…the you will accept anything you are told without doing research…it’s call goats being led to the slaughter

          • sierra

            Catholics go astray in the Mary/saint worship, I agree. Mormons go astray in so many other ways as well. The idea that if you are good enough you can become a god is actually blasphemous. God is God. Period. God the Father was never a man and he has always been God. “God is spirit” John 4:24 “I the LORD do not change.” Malachi 3:6 There- one of the biggest beliefs of Mormons contradicted by the Holy Scripture. Also, Joseph Smith claims he himself saw God. The Bible says, “No one has ever seen God.” 1 John 4:12 I could go on and on… but if part of it is proven false, why bother? Either the Bible is true or it isn’t. You can NOT believe in the infallibility of both the Bible and the book of Mormon. They contradict each other.

          • disqus_z08ked5aDT

            Have you read the Book of Mormon?

          • sierra

            I have read portions of it, and the best word to describe it was ‘uninspired’. “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8 Joseph Smith did just that. So, according to God’s Word he is under God’s curse and likely the entire religion of Mormonism. That sounds harsh but it just doesn’t get any clearer than that. Study some non-Mormon sources. There is NO evidence to support the existence of the people groups mentioned in the B. O. M. None. Zilch. There is no credible evidence to support any of Joseph Smith’s claims. He was a false prophet. Look into the debacle of J.S. claiming to decipher hieroglyphs. Later, the ancient script was properly translated and he was WAY off. SO many examples, many failed prophecies. Look into for yourself. Your eternal destiny rides on it.

          • jordonn12

            more like the BOM is plagerized…it’s so obvious/….but then if a veil is over your eyes you can not see clearly….

          • Rachel

            The people opposing the church have a bigger history of hatred and bigotry just so you know.
            How can you assume that church that preaches love to everyone can be hateful? I personally find that a very bigoted idea.

            You seem like a person who doesn’t change very easily. If your a person that hangs on to there ideals and doesn’t consider the other side then your more bigoted then me.

            ( I do realize there are some Mormons out there who don’t truly follow the gospel, and am sorry for the wrong teachings they might have given you ( like homosexuals are going to everlasting hell, THATS not going to happen, it’s actully rather difficult to get into that hell) but you shouldn’t hate on people who don’t know you yet love you.)

          • O. Locke

            look, darling.

            until the mormon cult gives women equal rights. I contend that it is the mormon cult who are the evil bigots.

            the mormon cult was founded on the hatred and subjugation of minorities. people should be ashamed to apologize for this openly bigoted cult.

            thanks for your input, darling.

          • YOUSUCK

            you sure do love the word cult and bigot. I bet you learned everything you know about Mormons from Reddit!

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            it is very bigoted of you to dismiss my comments and accuse me of getting my facts from reddit.

            the mormon-cult denies women rights. that is a fact. you might not like it but there it is.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • T. Larson

            That’s no fact. That’s a flat-out lie. how do you profess to know more about my religion than i do?

          • jordonn12

            Since Mormonism teaches that only God the Father had a physical body at the time Adam was created, why did God say, “Let us make man in OUR image”? Why didn’t He say, “Let us make man in MY image?” (Gen. 1:26).
            If Jesus was conceived as a result of a physical union between God and Mary, how was Jesus born of a virgin? (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 1, page 50)WHY do mormons ignore their own history recordings????this is very dishonest….Why do Mormons believe what they are told and not what they can find in history

          • T. Larson

            This is about women’s rights? Women are equal in our church. Where did you learn about our church? Mormonhate.org?

          • O. Locke

            no, pal.

            that isn’t any of your damn business where I learned mormonism is a cult. mormons always criticize people that criticize the cult as haters, apostates, and ‘the devil’.

            well, no. you can’t dismiss criticisms of a cult that is obviously and on its face fraudulent. all it takes is a little look into something like the kinderhook plates, or the stories in the boo of mormon to see it’s all a fraud.

            why are you holding on to this so tightly? your family can still be close. why maintain the delusion?

          • jordonn12

            WRONG….it is rather easy to get to HELL….we must accept the REAL Jesus not the false one taught by mormons and JW’s etc. If you don’t accept the True Jesus you are not part of the family of God.. The Bible is clear on this fact…but then mormons mostly follow a different man made book

          • K Tim

            I only know of the Jesus taught about in the Bible. Is there another one?

          • T. Larson

            No, there isn’t another one. Jesus Christ is the same in the Bible as well as the Book of Mormon. Thank you for asking and not assuming.

          • T. Larson

            You think we don’t follow the bible? Have you ever seen a set of LDS scriptures? The bible dominates the majority of it’s pages. Quit pretending you know about our church from the things you’ve heard, and really study it.

          • T. Larson

            There’s nothing about hate in our religion. We do what we can in a world of chaos. Is it too much to ask to be left in peace? If you hadn’t noticed, the scriptures are full of prophets. Why is it so wrong that there would be one today? Our Religion has no history of hate and bigotry, except the hate we receive from others. We are Christians. We are a religion.

          • O. Locke

            so the massacres, the doctrine about people with pigmentation, the teachings on women. all of that is just made up?

            look, pal.

            putting your fingers in your ears and shouting won’t change the facts.

            learn to live with it. educate yourself on it.

            thanks for your input and the exchange, pal.

          • Brayden Donkoh

            If you hate mormans so much than why are you on this page other than to be a hater

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I’m not being a hater of people who are taken in by the kolob cult. I do hate the people that attempt to destroy families, the lives of children, and the mormon-cult hierarchy that laughs at the people below them because of the mormon-cult’s obvious fraudulence.

            thanks for asking, pal.

          • Brayden Donkoh

            Still havnt awnsered the question why r u on this site

          • harry coleman

            you obviously don’t know your own doctrine.Like most mormons you are poorly educated and totally deceived.

          • JMW

            I testify of the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ. I know it is true!

            https://www.lds.org/

          • harry coleman

            Finally! Something we can agree on.The Gospel of Jesus Christ is true.Unfortunately.mormons follow the gospel of joseph smith.I challenge you to read your own church history and discourses …especially parley pratt and brigham young.They’re my favorite mormons. because they always ,always prove my point.Don’t stop there.When you see how they contradict themselves and each other then line it up with the Bible.Study this stuff out and keep an open mind.I’m starting to like you:)…you’re no wimp and you seem to earnestly contend for your faith.You are wrong but but I sense you truely want to know the truth.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            How long was Joseph Smith a part of the Church? What about all the rest of that time? Where did he get the education to write 3 scripture books?

            Where did he get the education to translate any golden plates he may or may not have found?

            This is the central question of the LDS church…Did Joseph Smith write or translate the Book of Mormon.

            Every faith contradicts itself. Show me one church which is completely internally consistent.

            How do you know Mormons are wrong? What empirical evidence can you bring to the table to show that Mormons are wrong and you are, therefore right?

          • harry coleman

            I don’t pretend to be right about most things :) I do believe the Bible is right.Eric,in case you didn’t notice,Joseph Smith started the Mormon Church.I suspect he as a member from day 1 :)I don’t believe there were any golden dishes.The only church that ill ever be consistent is the one that is established by God,Himself.When I line Mormon Doctrine up with The Bible it isn’t even close.Bt,mormon doctrine isn’t in The book of mormon.That book was a VERY loose copy with a few changes by Joe.Most mormons don’t even know what all the doctrine is.They are ignorant that Brigham Young taught that e came from the planet kolab and that Jesus is the brother of satan and that Adam is the God of this world…or that we(men) will become gods.This is all verifiable facts.You can probably google it.

          • harry coleman

            sorry the w on my comp is sticking

          • Eric R. Johnson

            We all make typos. You are fogiven. Except for me, as I am not forgiven for my typos in this discussion, I am bashed.
            Way to go!

          • harry coleman

            You are forgiven for everything.Whether you accept it is your choice :)

          • Eric Johnson

            I accept that, as do all other LDS members who correctly understand their faith.

            So, WTF are you talking about? Be specific.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Harry, I am an expert on the Church. Smith founded the Church, but he has been dead for like 160 years.

            Golden Plates… that is the Faith question… the essential question of the LDS church.
            Reject it if you wish…. personally.

            But bashing it like this, incessantly, is pretty un-christian, don’t you think?

            If Mormons are left alone, what is the danger? Be specific.

            I am certain you believe all kinds of lies, half- and total un-truths in all kinds of areas of your life.
            Why are you so animated against the LDS church?

            Are you trying to save me?

          • harry coleman

            LOL no Eric I am not trying to save you! I can’t save a gnat much less you.Besides that’s not my job.I’m animated against Mormons because that cult has done alot of damage to my family and it’s all lies.It isn’t my intention to bash anyone.I’m not perfect and won’t be on this side of the grave so telling me I’m unchristian is probably the most acurate thing you’ve said…and a moot point. The danger is hell Eric.I don’t want my worst enemy to go there.I’m motivated by love not anger or hate.If I hated Mormons I’d never post anything and would think hell is a good place for them.

          • sierra

            the danger is the aggressive evangelizing/leading people astray.

          • jordonn12

            people are so against the mormon church because it is based on lies and deception…the bible warns of us of these things. your founder was a con artist and pedophile…of low moral character…that should be enough to do copious amounts of research on the subject. But mormons are advised to bury their heads in the sand…they are shunned , family is disowned….all signs of a CULT

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Which Bible do you line up?

          • harry coleman

            Hope ypur machine is a great comfort to you in hell.

          • jordonn12

            Guest here you go deflecting the truth again. The different Christian religions may have some different teachings…BUT the one that counts and makes them Christian is the REAL Jesus Christ we read about in the Bible. The Mormon Jesus is a false jesus and is not the REAL Jesus. lets make that clear. Believing in the REal Jesus and following him is the key to eternal salvation….Mormons follow the teaching of JS

          • Mojo

            He didn’t. That’s why the BoM is a strange mish-mash of Middle and Modern English. And he had friends to help him. Orson Prat, et al. Book of Abraham was a plagerized Egyptian death scroll. The D and C was just a collection of ramblings that furthered his enterprise.

          • JMW

            The best way to understand the Book of Mormon is to read it.

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3,4,5?lang=eng#2

            Here’s an introduction to the Doctrine and Covenants:

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testament/introduction?lang=eng

            The book of Abraham is a wonderful book of scripture that teaches about the pre-mortal life and the creation. The introduction to the Pearl of Great Price includes the book of Abraham:

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/pgp/introduction?lang=eng

          • Mojo

            I’ll leave you with this literary gem from 4 Nephi 1:6: And thus did the thirty and eighth year pass away, and also the thirty and ninth, and forty and first, and the forty and second, yea, even until forty and nine years had passed away, and also the fifty and first, and the fifty and second; yea, and even until fifty and nine years had passed away.

          • Mojo

            I can’t pass this one up: Ether 2:20 And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: Behold, thou shalt make a hole in the top, and also in the bottom; and when thou shalt suffer for air thou shalt unstop the hole and receive air. And if it be so that the water come in upon thee, behold, ye shall stop the hole, that ye may not perish in the flood.”
            Why, for goodness sake, would there need to be a hole in the botton of the boat??

          • Mojo

            Or this one, really: Ether 15: And it came to pass that when Coriantumr had leaned upon his sword, that he rested a little, he smote off the head of Shiz. And it came to pass that after he had smitten off the head of Shiz, that Shiz raised up on his hands and fell; and after that he had struggled for breath, he died.”
            So really? His capa has been detated from his head, and yet he he GOT UP ON HIS HANDS AND KNEES AND STRUGGLED FOR BREATH??

          • JMW

            Joseph Smith was and is a prophet of God. The Book of Mormon is the Lord’s evidence of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ!

            I challenge you to read the first chapter of the first book of Nephi. Here’s a link:

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/1-ne/1?lang=eng

            Here’s how you can know if it is true:

            https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/10.3,4,5?lang=eng#2

            Let me know what you think about that.

          • Rachel

            I feel a love for you and know this church is true. I hope we can both nourish are testimonys and let them grow.

          • Rachel

            I am perfectly well educated thank you very much
            And okay, tell us what are doctrine is?
            Your actually are the one deceiving yourself with false hoods, you take facts that don’t exist and try to use them against us.
            Am I decivied? I was promised that this gospel would give me happiness, and it’s given me that and so much more. Every blessing promised to me if I followed the gospel has been kept.
            How can YOU be right when your most likly preaching out of hate for us when we’re preaching out of love?

          • jordonn12

            Yes the real Christ portrayed in the Bible….NOT the mormon false Christs. Mormon Christ is completely different thant the Christ of Christianity. That is why mormons are not considered Christians by those who educate themselves

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            Forgot one thing. At least the impressionable young people who are sent out on missions should be treated with respect, and at a minimum be told that Joseph Smith was a con artist. You know it’s true.

          • Amanda Altamirano

            JMW Mormonism teaches the atonement occurred in the Garden BEFORE Jesus was even arrested. Atonement does cover all sin. But YOU JMW do not have atonement. Atonement happened AFTER Jesus was convicted and it occurred on the cross. Mormonism twists everything to keep it’s brainwashed followers from the saving blood of Jesus on the cross.

          • JS353535

            What a catastrophically brainwashed sheep you are. I genuinely feel sad for you.

          • JoanRoberts

            Oh lord! Are they harkening back to blood atonement?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What is hate and bigoted? What makes you an expert? and what specifically makes it a cult? Just because you say it is doesn’t make it true.

            Why is the LDS chirch a Cult and not any other Church, say the Catholic Church, or the Dutch Reformed (Calvinist)church? The Russian and Greek Orthodox church?

            What about the Church of England, Alex (will he get the reference?), which they call the episcopalians here?

            The Lutherans? Why are they not a Cult?

            Baptists? Why are they not a cult? Be very specific?

            And the Jews, are they a cult? Be specific as to why or why not.

            If you have the guts and knowledge to answer any one of these questions succinctly and with some, any, kind of erudition, I;ll give you $1000 US dollars.

          • O. Locke

            an obvious fraud says he found some golden plates and an angel spoke to him in palmyra new york?

            are you kidding me?

            Or what about god hating black people til 78′ then changing his mind for votes, a tax exempt status, and some cash.

            go educate yourself on the mormon-cult then you won’t need to ask me this question.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            How would you know… Were you alive in the mid 1800s?

            Is it any less believable than Christ making water into wine or walking on water?

            How were black people treated in other churches?

            Why do we have such segregation in the USA on Sunday Mornings at 11:00, which is the most segregated time in the American week?

            Is it because non-Mormon sects allowed blacks and whites to worship together?

            The Catholic Church has had only White Europeans as Pope for several thousand years. No worthy black people in that time?

            The LDS church holds the Bible to be true, too.

          • Mojo

            “Is it any less believable than Christ making water into wine or walking on water?”
            Yes. Because what Joe peddled was drivel to fool simple people. It dissagrees with scripture.

            “The LDS church holds the BIble to be true, too”. Have you read it? It contradicts so much of what your church teaches. About all you have correct is that there is indeed a Diety, and His name is Jesus the Christ. Past that, you’re dead wrong.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Yes, word-by-word, verse-by-verse over 2 semesters of 2 credit/hr. university level work. So Old Testament over 2 semesters and New testament, also taught over two semesters.

            The God’s name is Elohim, or Elo.

            I believe in the Bible. How am I dead wrong?

            Name any contadictions, and I’ll handle them one-by-one, showing how your spittle shooting angry but nascent thoughts just don’t get it because of a screen-full of propaganda shoved your way by someone in your life.

            By the way, I don’t say you are wrong. Why do youinsist on screaming and pointing at me for being wrong?

            I’ve never been on a mission.

          • Mojo

            Again with the accusation of anger. I think you’re projecting. I’m not angry in the least bit. Zealos for the truth, and astounded that you sound so much like I used to, but not at all angry. Stop reading anger into what people who disagre with you say. It only serves to mess up the delightful dialog we’re having.
            Elohim is indeed A name for God, but the Jews have always called him Yahweh, and more often than not, that’s what it says in the Hebrew bible, and also how God presented Himself to Moses. Adoni is another name for God. El Shadi is yet another.

            Pardon me while I whip out my notes….

          • Mojo

            So how many Gods are there? One, or many? Because there are mormon sources that say one: Alma 11:27-39, 44; 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; 3 Nephi 11:27 Testimony of the three witnesses, and other sources that say many: Doctrine and Covenants 121:32; 132:18-20, 37, Book of Abraham’s version of the creation story.

            Does God dwell in our hearts? Yes: Alma 34:36, No: D&C 130:3

            Did we exist before this life? No: Jacob 4:9; Alma 18:28, 34-36, Yes: D&C 93:23, 29-33, PGP Bk of Abraham 3:18, 21-23

          • Mojo

            “disciples were first called Christians in Antioch” circa 40AD, Acts 11:26 Alma 46:13-16 (supposedly) written in 73 BC refers to Nephites as Christians.

            Jesus is only head of church Col 1:18
            Joe Smith is head of Mormon church D&C 28:2-6

            “Jesus was born in Bethlehem” Mt 2:1, Mt 21:17
            “He shall be born of Mary at Jerusalem” Alma 7:10

            Three hours of darkness at crucifixion Luke 23:44
            Three days of darkness at crucifixion Hel 14:20-27

            God is spirit without flesh and bones John 4:24; Luke 24:39
            God has flesh and bones like man: D&C 130:22

            God tempts no one. (James 1:13-14). Man is basically sinful. (Rom. 8:5-8; I Cor 2:14) and that the fall of man by sinning in the Garden of Eden brought death and suffering into the world, and thus the need for a savior and Messiah.
            The LDS teach it brought mortality and physical death – not fallen nature – believe Adam was given two conflicting commandments and was supposed to fall. “…if Adam had not transgressed…. they would have had no children; wherefore they would have remained in a state of innocence, having no joy, for they knew no misery; doing no good, for they knew no sin….Adam fell that men might be;” (BM, 2 Nephi 2:22-23).
            Joseph Fielding Smith, Jr. wrote, “I never speak of the part Eve took in this fall as a sin, nor do I accuse Adam of a sin” (Doctrines of Salvation, (DS), vol. 1, p. 114)
            “This was a transgression of the law, but not a sin in the strict sense, for it was something that Adam and Eve had to do!” (Ibid., p. 115). “The ‘fall’ of Adam and Eve was not a sin but an essential act upon which mortality depends” (Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, vol. 5, p. 15).

            Sounds like something Satan would say to cover himself!

            The Gospel according to the mormons is per Mormon Church system and doctrines. The gospel per the bible is the Message of Christ’s death and resurrection as atonement for our sins. (I Cor 15:1-4; Gal 1:8).

            The church per the mormons is only the Mormon Church – true church taken from earth until Joseph Smith restored it. But the bible says that as a born-again Christian, we are part of God’s Church. (I Cor 12:12-14; Matt 18:19-20; Matt 16:18).

            The LDS believe only LDS have authority to baptize, ordain, etc – have two-part system of priesthood – Melchizedek and Aaronic. But the bible says that Jesus brought end to Aaronic priesthood and is the ONLY High Priest after manner of Melchizedek. (Heb 5:9; II Tim 2:2).

            Your “heaven” is divided into three kingdoms – Celestial, Terrestrial and Telestial – place for almost everyone (misuse of I Cor 15:40-41). I remember when the elders taught me that one pretty well. But the bible only mentions two conditions – everlasting punishment or life eternal. (Matt. 25:31- 46, among many other verses on the topic).

            Speaking of hell, the mormons see Hell as an institution in eternity – inmates come and go as in jail – don’t spend eternity there – stay until one has paid debt to God. But the bible has no mention of people getting out of Hell. (Rev. 21:8; Matt 13:24-43 and 47-50; Luke 16:26)

            The doozie was learning that the mormon version of God the Father actually fornicated with Mary to produce Jesus: “For our present purposes, suffice it to say that our Lord was born of a virgin, which is fitting and proper, and also natural, since the Father of the Child was an immortal Being” (The Promised Messiah, pg. 466). “Christ was begotten by an immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers.” (Mormon Doctrine, 1966, p. 547) Then there was the necessary redefinition of the word “virgin”: “Our Lord is the only mortal person ever born to a virgin, because he is the only person who ever had an immortal Father.” (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., p. 822).

          • O. Locke

            I don’t need to have been there to know that an obvious fraud is lying about jews ferrying themselves to America and that they were using egyptian hieroglyphics to write messages in 17th century english.

            the mormon-cult is an obviously fake made up cult.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Really? Would actually having been at Appomatox not have been superior to any research 145 years later?

            Was it Jews? I wasn’t taught that. The story of Noah os al A-OK, then? nd the Parting of the Red Sea? Surely that is as fraudulent as anything Joseph Smithmight have been able to come up with.

            Why are you stuck on men’s use of boats, which predates the BoM times by several tens of thousands of years.

            How were the America’s populated again?

          • O. Locke

            look, buddy.

            you keep asking me to educate you on the fradulent claims of your cult.

            GO READ A BOOK!

            it isn’t my job to educate you and answer your ridiculous questions.

            thanks for your input, buddy.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Why the hell is it my responsibility to write your PhD dissertation for you?

            They are your allegations, you prove them.

            I’m far more of an expert on the LDS church than you could ever hope to be, both pedigree-wise and via academe, and your nonsense is just that, nonsense.

            If you want to say which books/articles I should read to see WTF you are talking about, name them, as -you- are clearly not elequoent enough to read, digest, and do a simple regurgitaion of what you have read in order to prove what you believe by talking points to be true.

            As of now, you are justa whiny fake, which makes it fun to know how much space I occupy in your mind at this point.

            In any case, I don’t have any idea what you are talking about, and neither does anyine else here on this forum.

            Look at the posts, especially mine, as I am attacking you and your spittle-shooting angry outbursts befitting the worst toddler-hood tantrum ever made, not defending the Church.

            Too bad you are so obtuse.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            you used this weak response on someone else. I’m follwoing you and I’ve read your ridiculous responses.

            the mormon cult apologetics don’t change the facts.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            No, I am not kidding. It’s religion.

            A burning bush which does not consume itself?

            Water into wine?

            Fish for all?

            Walking on Water?

            Parting of the Red Sea?

            Yep those are all OK…

            But finding archeological artifacts in New York state in the early part of the 19th Century? Naahhhh, cannot possibly be.

            God did not hate black people until 1978. The LDS Church grew up in the USA, which to this day has little use for black people.

            (One of my physicians, a Black woman, board certified in 5 things, turned white when the Beverly Hills Police came around the corner as she was dropping me at my car earlier this year.

            We were 500 feet from her office.

            So how does the USA feel about Black people in 2014?

            Barak Obama is State-of-Hawaiian in culture, as there is no place on Oahu, or even in the state, where I lived at the time, and where he spent his formative years, where the African American culture is expressed, except on one or two military bases, such as Schoefield barracks, which was being closed rapidly at the time, or Pearl Harbor which lost one or 2 major ships during that time period.

            So we dont yet even have a black president.

            And you guys are whining because the LDS Church made it’s decision that Black people -could- not be excluded from the Priesthood, as it’s not to be found in the scripture… and such feelings are contrary to the missionary task?

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            you should be ashamed of yourself for not acknowledging that the mormon cult didn’t help perpetuate some of the worst stereotypes of American Blacks in an effort to justify their bigoted cult inspired hatred.

            I won’t even quote your ‘profit’ joseph smith or that disgusting racist brigham young.

            SHAME on you, pal!

          • Eric Johnson

            Look Bub,

            You should be ashamed of yourself for putting forth such hideous inaccuracies and carrying on such a double standard oriented hate campaign against a single Christian religious sect in the United States when most Christian religious sects and major Christian divisions, (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox) don’t feel any different.

            Many African-Americans are furious with Pres. Obama for having changed his mind, yes, changed his mind on the subject of homosexual marriage.

            African-American churches in the South are thoroughly opposed to homosexuality.

            And your wild bashing campaign against homophobic African-American churches in the South is exactly where?

            You should be ashamed of yourself for picking one set of people to dump all of your hatred upon when other similar groups have the same policies and opinions.

            What part of Mormon doctrine regarding sexual behavior is different than any other Christian sect’s doctrine regarding sexual behavior, with specific reference to homosexuality?

            This brings up the question, since there’s not really that much of a difference from church to church, and by the way there are gay friendly wards in California (hmmm, how did that happen?)

            Why so much vehemence against the one church and anyone who would dare challenge you on your hysteria?

            I don’t care to challenge you on doctrinal issues per se, as you and I are not going to ever agree on it. And I’m not the unreasonable person in that dynamic.

            I want to know why you only attack one church when the rest of Christendom holds the same opinion, and further, when some of them, particularly those outside the United States, have the severest of punishments carried out by those younger men worshiping in the same chapel/cathedral?

            the LDS church does not call for nor allow for the killing of homosexuals.

          • O. Locke

            LOL!

            pathetic, pal.

          • Eric Johnson

            What makes me the fraud and not you?
            You are the one spitting fire (something Satan might do?) anout the LDS church while saying nothing about what they did to you to make youhate them so much, most, if not all Christian sects hate and despise the same groups of people.

            My younger Ukrainian housekeeper in Amsterdam tells me that in Ukraine in southern Russia you better not be known as being homosexual, or you will be killed or otherwise beaten to a pulp.

            My Russian girlfriend, from the extreme north, told me the same thing. And there’s a lot of extremely pious Russians. The Orthodox Church for expatriates certainly in at least two countries that I know of personally the USA and Holland, the central organizing units of Russian and Ukrainian life.

            Where on earth it’s your campaign against the Orthodox church which just in fact does happen to exist in the United States of America. And certainly has more members than the 5 million Mormons in the United States.

            Perhaps you will understand this question… Why the double standard?

          • O. Locke

            learn to read, pal.

            thanks for all the input.

          • harry coleman

            Hey! I want a grand too :)

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Do the work, and You’ll get the money.

          • harry coleman

            Call me crazy but somehow I doubt that.

          • Eric Johnson

            Why?

          • Tanner Evans

            I think you should learn about others’ religions before you go slandering it like this. It’s insane the way people like you can go and defame the Mormon faith based on an article that is not affiliated with the church at all!

          • O. Locke

            I have learned about the mormon-cult. I’m not defaming the cult. I’m merely writing the facts of its obviously ridiculous bogus and unsubstantiated claims.

            those are the facts here. I’m not sure why mormon-cultists keep defending claims like god hating blacks til 78′ then changing his mind for votes, ca$h, and a tax exempt status.

            the shame is on the mormon-cult bigots who refuse to confront the racist founding of their cult.

          • K Tim

            You’re actually the one who belongs to a hateful bigoted cult… The Anti-Mormon Cult. And you’re fuelled by only one motive, an eternal hatred of the Mormon faith. The key words in your statement is the phrase “as far as I know” and you really don’t know anything or what you’re talking about for that matter. And I’m pretty dang sure I know A TON more about my own church than you do. If you were a Catholic, I wouldn’t be so brash as to claim that I know more about Catholicism than you do. That’s just flat out arrogant. If you really want to know about our religion, you should probably ask an actual Mormon, or better yet, a Mormon that actually follows the church’s tenants.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I don’t hate mormon-cult adherents. what would make you assume that?

            And there is no “key words” in my “statement”. my comment is clear and factual. there are no other theologies based on racism.

            you might dislike the facts but there they are.

            And what is it with the mormon-cult defense? “They do it too!”. It’s sad.

            thanks for your assertions and your comment, pal.

          • YOUSUCK

            sounds like you don’t know very much. it is sad really

          • O. Locke

            kinderhook plates.

            I could quote brigham young to you but mormon cult conditioning is very difficult to break.

            thanks for your comment, pal.

          • Harriet Hunt Brown

            Here is one of the reasons Mormonism is a cult – naive, cognitively undeveloped children (which is a description of any teenager, lds or not) are sent out to do a “mission”, actually a marketing trip, and are encouraged to limit all contact with their families (genius) while they “counsel” adults with adult problems. These kids should all be at college learning about our incredible world, having their beliefs challenged, meeting others from diverse backgrounds, and learning that science is actually science. Holding hands is OK too. How about having young people who are informed and intelligent? I have personal experience and know what I’m talking about when it comes to this whole scam.

          • garethWill

            don’t argue with them they are like a man who is pretending to sleep you will never get through to them. they are drunk with delusion of what is right and what is wrong cannot be reasoned with

          • JMW

            Sadly, you’re right. These people just don’t want to change. Until they have an open mind, nothing any of us say will help them.

          • O. Locke

            sadly, you’re both wrong.

            Although it is YOU who doesn’t have the open mind. do you honestly believe that Jews sailed to America and fought with native Americans and some guy buries some tablet with a contemporary religious text on it? what about dinosaur fossils? why didn’t the mormon god know about those?

            This has EVERYTHING to do with having an open mind. YOUR MIND IS CLOSED! Open your mind to the fact the mormon-cult is wrong and is lying to you to line their pockets.

          • JMW

            “Although it is YOU who doesn’t have the open mind.”

            I’ve been through the phase of questioning my beliefs. Trust me, I’m in the right place. So are other Christian religions. They may not have the full truth, but they’re on the right track.

            “do you honestly believe that Jews sailed to America and fought with native Americans and some guy buries some tablet with a contemporary religious text on it?”

            It doesn’t say anything in the scriptures about fighting with native Americans. Unless you’re talking about the Lamanites. They aren’t native Americans. It wasn’t a tablet, it was golden plates. They were gold because gold doesn’t rust. Other than that, yes. I believe that the Bible isn’t the only ancient record around.

            Jews sailing to America sounds a lot less outrageous than what atheists say. Do you honestly believe that this universe just sprang into being? With all the unchanging laws of physics? Do you believe life was a coincidence?

            “what about dinosaur fossils? why didn’t the mormon god know about those?”

            Er… what? You say some pretty stupid things, but this is on a different level. The “mormon god” knows everything. He is the same God that created the dinosaurs. He is the ONLY God. The same God who is worshiped by plenty of other religions. Claiming that there is a difference between the “mormon god” and God is ridiculous.

            “This has EVERYTHING to do with having an open mind. YOUR MIND IS CLOSED! Open your mind to the fact the mormon-cult is wrong and is lying to you to line their pockets.”

            Man! Some profit our prophets and apostles are making! They’ve got it made! Joseph Smith was rejected by his own neighbors and friends, tortured, falsely accused and imprisoned, covered in hot tar with feathers, and eventually murdered.

            If he did this for a profit, he could have said at any time that he had made it up. The persecution would’ve stopped. It IS true, though. Joseph stuck with it to his death. He made no earthly profit.

            Many, many saints refused to deny the gospel. They were killed, and chased out of their homes. Modern prophets on this earth are not here for a profit. True prophets of got never were, and never will be here for earthly gain.

            They’re here to help you, and you reject them. You claim they a liars, fools, and sinners. The scriptures have prophesied that this would come to pass in the latter days.

          • O. Locke

            first and foremost DO NOT use Christianity to advance the cult.

            the mormon cult has nothing to do with other religions in the world. we ned to have that straight in the beginning.

            Now to your comment:

            wow! the delusion is stifling!

            You haven’t questioned your faith otherwise you would know that there is no historical record or proof to validate any of the mormon-cul record. I don’t know any athiests in public or private that say the universe sprang from nothing. I know people who might say it is an interesting scientific question worth answering.

            the idea that some guy buried some golden tablets and then some other dude finds them and god somehow put on these tablets that he hated blacks because of their skin color, that jews sailed across the ocean, and that god is from planet kolob is absolutely preposterous AND YOU KNOW IT!

            you need to recognize reality. the cult has you and their hold is strong.

            from one human to another:

            I hope you can get past your ignorance.

          • JMW

            “first and foremost DO NOT use Christianity to advance the cult.”

            This is what I mean when I say you can’t be reasoned with. We are Christians. That is a fact. stop denying it.

            “the mormon cult has nothing to do with other religions in the world. we ned to have that straight in the beginning.”

            I don’t even need to say anything. That quote disproves itself. Another quote to add to the list of “top 10 most stupid quotes”!

            “wow! the delusion is stifling!”

            Isn’t it? You deny facts, and present hollow lies. You are indeed pretty delusional. Thanks for stating that.

            “You haven’t questioned your faith otherwise you would know that there is no historical record or proof to validate any of the mormon-cul record. I don’t know any athiests in public or private that say the universe sprang from nothing. I know people who might say it is an interesting scientific question worth answering.”

            You’re hilarious. Here’s just one example of archaeological evidence:

            In one of the various books compiled in the Book of Mormon, it talks about an ancient city named Nahom that hadn’t been discoverered until the 20th century. Joseph Smith translated the Book of Mormon in the early 19th century. Just more proof it’s real.

            “the idea that some guy buried some golden tablets and then some other dude finds them”

            Finding things is normal, especially if you’ve been told where to find them.

            “and god somehow put on these tablets that he hated blacks because of their skin color”

            *facepalms*

            We’ve been over twice already. I think I don’t need to say it again. You can’t be reasoned with.

            “that jews sailed across the ocean”

            Yes, I know, it’s preposterous that they made a boat! Inconceivable! How ridiculous that I actually believe such a thing! How could I possibly believe that they sailed from island to island to reach the American continent?

            “and that god is from planet kolob is absolutely preposterous AND YOU KNOW IT!”

            wow, you actually managed to top your previous stupid statements! I applaud you! What is the planet “Kolob”? That is pretty preposterous. AND I KNOW It!

            “you need to recognize reality. the cult has you and their hold is strong.”

            You can remain in your delusions, and claim that I am the delusional one. I am happy with the truth, you are angry with your lies. Their “hold” on me is knowing the full truth of the restored gospel of Christ is again on the earth.

            “from one human to another:

            I hope you can get past your ignorance.”

            Yes, I hope you can. When someone is so ignorant that they call the informed people ignorant, that’s pretty sad.

          • O. Locke

            Look,

            I could use google to go on and on about mormon-cult doctrine and how it is obviously a ridiculous fiction. I won’t do that. I won’t waste my time or energy trying to debate you on mormon-cult apologists who found some city that no one else was able to find to establish some connection to the kolob-cult. It’s tiring.

            I know you thought you would make some limp-wristed statement about my stupidity and then I’m supposed to get angry about it. I’m not. I don’t mind being stupid if it makes you THINK for one second. Forget about the preposterous beliefs and ideologies of the mormon-cult. When it comes down to it, I don’t think you actually believe any of it. You’re apeing it. Just like everyone else. Your parents practiced, so you do.

            From one human to another: THINK, MAN!

          • JMW

            “I could use google to go on and on about mormon-cult doctrine and how it is obviously a ridiculous fiction. I won’t do that.”

            Are you kidding me? The top websites from a google search is where all your information was coming from. Ridiculous fiction? You are sad. You know nothing about what we actually believe. You know that, but it doesn’t seem to matter to you.

            “I won’t waste my time or energy trying to debate you on mormon-cult apologists who found some city that no one else was able to find to establish some connection to the kolob-cult. It’s tiring.”

            Yes, it is tiring to deal with you. (What’s with all the “kolob” stuff?) I present proof in front of you, and you flat out deny it while throwing insults. That city was first discovered several years after the Book of Mormon was translated. Ancient writings were found in the city that said what it was called. An angel could appear in front of you, and you would dismiss it as a hallucination!

            “I know you thought you would make some limp-wristed statement about my stupidity and then I’m supposed to get angry about it. I’m not.”

            My wrists aren’t limp, but that would be quite the disability!

            Yes, you are angry about it. You’re just saying you’re not because you want to disprove everything I say.

            “I don’t mind being stupid if it makes you THINK for one second”

            You just prove over and over what little you know! I can’t believe that you actually give credit to those “facts” you have! You are so outrageously misinformed!

            “Forget about the preposterous beliefs and ideologies of the mormon-cult. When it comes down to it, I don’t think you actually believe any of it. You’re apeing it. Just like everyone else. Your parents practiced, so you do.”

            When I have been given the Light of Christ, I will not deny it. I do believe in Jesus Christ our Savior, and I do believe that there is life after death. I do believe we have a real purpose on this earth, and I WILL NOT forsake what I know to be true! I know this church is true, and I know it is Christ’s church fully resored!

            “From one human to another: THINK, MAN!”

            Yes, think man! If all the garbage you’ve said was true, why would ANYONE be in this church? It would have never come into existence! Can’t you see? The Lord has finally restored the fulness of the gospel after the great apostasy!

            What do you believe to be true? You supposedly know right from wrong.

          • O. Locke

            THINK!

            re-read your comment but substitute whay YOU said for what a moslem death cultist would say.

            THINK!

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Why is it that you are the only one capable of thinking, and the rest of us are not,no matter our educations?

            CLUE: CAPS ON THE INTERNET IS SCREAMING.

            Why do you need to scream at us?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Because it’s on Google, that makes it correct?

            What did the Mormons do to you to inspire such visceral, palpable hatred?

          • O. Locke

            I don’t hate the mormon cult.

            the mormon cult hates various minority groupd. all it takes to find out which ones is a short google search.

            search it and weep, pal!

            thanks.

          • Mojo

            ” Isaw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; … and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest.”Abraham 3:2-3

            “Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh.” Abraham, Facsimile No. 2, explanations to Fig. 1.

            Ever hear the mormon hymn, “If You Could Hie to Kolob”?
            You don’t seem to know your own religion. But then, having been a mormon myself at one point, I know that critical thinking isn’t exactly encouraged…

          • JMW

            Critical thinking is normal. We don’t discourage it. “If You Could Hie to Kolob” is a great hymn! Here’s the words to it:

            https://www.lds.org/music/library/hymns/if-you-could-hie-to-kolob?lang=eng

          • Eric R. Johnson

            what cult?

            Why would the LDS church be a cult?

            What is a cult?

            Define it. I dare you. G’head.

            Then draw the arrows between the dictionary definition and LDS practice in order to demonstrate this alleged cult-hood.

            What are you so animated against Mormons? What did they do to you? There must be something.

            Come out with it and be honest with us.

            it will feel very good to be honest n place of hateful.

            The spewing of hatred you have done here is appalling, yet somehow it is the Mormons who are wrong.

            What should become of the LDSD church, in your opinion? Give is candor.

          • O. Locke

            I know it’s hard when you’re the member of a hateful bigoted cult.

            the moslems have difficulty too.

            go do a little research on the mormon-cult and you’ll begin to see the truth.

            thanks for allwoing me to clarify, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Since none of is definively provable, how is iot that you can end up -knowing- you, and by nefarious presumptive extension, other christians are correct?

            Why bother? The LDS church members don’t bother you by telling you you are wrong.

            Why should you?

            Where is the fire?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            I don’t care if you have questioned your beliefs.

            Yes I believe in the Atlantic crossing, though filled with jews is a bit of a stretch.

          • garethWill

            to my understandings of it all you just dislike mormons because they have a different worldview to you. and on this planet there are billions others that have different viewpoints to you this does not make them wrong or right. the point i am making we can quantify and understand the universe to the point of the big bang to the evolicany process of the cosmos and to life itself but you can not force people into changing their beliefs. its just not going to happen i am more into the idea of freedom of choice. you can never change what a person believes only they can change and if they don’t want to then it is up to them.

          • O. Locke

            Look, pal.

            Your understandings are wrong. You can believe what you like but the moment mormon cultists move to a state and begin to effect state policy THEN it’s time for the mormon cult to lose its tax exempt status.

            And there is right and wrong. Especially when someone is pawning off their cult doctrine as “the way to salvation”, it’s legal to lie, no one can get angry about a bunch of people who are hoodwinked by the lies of the mormon cult. But you can’t expect that other people will be hoodwinked and not speak up.

            No one is talking about force. Although, force is the currency of the cult. Just look at what the cult does to families when family members reject mormon-cult teaching. Or mountain meadows. Or prop 8. The mormon-cult does share the idea that “might makes right”. With cult doctrine there can be no “freedom of choice” you have the freedom to believe what you are told. THAT’S IT!

            You can believe what you like, when society begins to move forward you can still believe what you like. You just won’t be able to make laws that protect your cult and hamper progress. And you won’t be able to do it on the backs of tax payers with a tax exempt status either.

            Thanks for your input, pal.

          • JMW

            I testify of the truth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints! I know it is true. The fulness of Christ’s doctrine is restored on the earth once more!

            https://www.lds.org/

          • O. Locke

            just like a moslem.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            You seem pretty self-righteous yourself, just like a muslim.

          • O. Locke

            this coming from the person who decided to post ridiculois and ignorant messages.

            you should be ashamed of yourself.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            To which ” ridiculois(sic) and ignorant messages” are you referring, exactly?

          • O. Locke

            I read your previous posts. I’m now following you.

            thanks for your input, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Ok… I’m glad.

            Nobody follows me.

            Ae you trying to make me a Messiah?

            I’m glad i occupy so very much real estate within your head that you have been driven to such lengths.

            Who am I to you that you should need to follow me?

            Bwahaahahahahhahahahahah

          • Eric Johnson

            WTF are you talking about? Just because you say something is “ignorant a ridiculois (sic)” doesn’t mean you are correct.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I figured you out. I could re-post your previous comments but it would be fruitless.

            you’re an uneducated joke.

            thanks for all your input, pal.

          • Mojo

            And I testify of the lack of truth of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints! I know it is false! The fulness of Christ’s doctrine is in the bible, not in Joe and Brigham’s fabrications!

          • Eric R. Johnson

            You do? How?

          • JMW

            It’s good to hear that you believe in the Bible! I testify that the Book of Mormon is true, and is another testament of Jesus Christ.

          • Mojo

            But your testimony means nothing. Nothing at all. You can testify on the Quoran and it would mean as much.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            As much as this is nice for you to contibute, these are not helpfulright now. It gives him a chance to say, “just like a moslem (sic).”

          • Eric R. Johnson

            “Your understandings are wrong. You can believe what you like but the moment mormon cultists move to a state and begin to effect state policy THEN it’s time for the mormon cult to lose its tax exempt status.”

            I agree with this.

            I find it to have been a very bad move for the LDS church to have abandoned long-standing policy to not take sides on certain political issues, local or national.

            That they preached from the pulpit for prop 8, I was appalled, although I was living in a foreign country with Gay Marriage for nearly a decade at that point, so I was unaware of the actions of the Church in the California propition.

            I believe the actions of the Church shoould be looked into by law enforcement, in the form of the FEC, and if they are found to have crossed the line, they should indeed lose their tax exempt status.

            Done.

            Next?

          • O. Locke

            I’m happy you agree.

            now go criticize the mormon cult. since you’re a part of it they might listen. Although I doubt they will. criticize the cult and you might get a formal reprimand.

            thanks for your input and limp-wristed, re-hashed attacks.

            thanks, pal.

          • Mojo

            It’s a dislike for lies, not for them. Mormonism is one of the easiest religions to refute, but they are just as tenatious as evolutionists about their religion.

          • garethWill

            you cannot change a person’s belief by saying they are wrong, that is the basis of belief. you can say all you want and if they believe in some that strong they won’t waver from the belief. it is an exercise in futility to even attempt to change what people believe

          • Mojo

            That’s true. All I can do is present facts, as I did elsewhere here. It’s up to God’s Spirit (and people’s choices) to move a person.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What facts? You have presented no facts. It’s part of your common schtick. Why hate so much? Is that Christian?

          • Mojo

            I’ve been quoting from your own church leaders and scriptures. I hope you’re just not sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling “LA LA LA LA LA I can’t hear you! I see no evidence! LA LA LA LA LA!”

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Just because certain person who happens to sit in a high chair in the LDS hierarchy writes a book of his opinion does not mean that he has any more or less information than anyone else.

            There’s only what exists in the so-called, “standard works,” of the LDS church, the book of Mormon doctrine and covenants, the Pearl of great price, and the old and new Testaments of the King James version of the Bible.

            My opinion of church Scripture is as valid as his.

            However I have seen very little quoting, and a lot of innuendo disguised as fact.

            I hope your not sticking your fingers in your ears yelling La la la la la in the hopes that I will go away.

            And contributed nothing to the conversation that I know of. Please summarize your quotations into a you sentences if you are able.

            I’m really more interested in why it is that you guys are also unhappy with this particular church, although almost every other Christian sect has exactly the same rules about homosexuality and marriage that I just don’t understand.

            Further do we not have religious freedom in this country?

            Finally how is it that you know that your brand of Christianity is the correct one? At this moment I’m not saying that Mormons are the correct brand.

            So who is? Catholics? Lutherans? and Episcopalians? Southern Baptists? Christian fellowships?

            Unfortunately for you there is no institution that defines who is a Christian and who is not. I’m trying to figure out why you’re so upset about the Mormons, but about no one else?

            Not everybody can have it right, can they? Who has it wrong besides the Mormons. That’s a question you should understand.

          • Mojo

            Wow. You really have a victim mentality. I’m not picking on mormons more than anyone else. If you were a catholic, we’d be talking about catholic doctrines, and you’d ask me why I hate catholics so much, and why I’m picking on catholics. If you were a muslim, it would be the same issue.

            “However I have seen very little quoting, and a lot of innuendo disguised as fact.”
            No innuendo. Not an innuendo kind of guy. I’ve stated plainly what I’ve meant, quoted from your books, your prophets, gave you references. You’ve given me whining about what “brand” is correct. About how I hate mormons. About freedom of religion. You’ve not addressed any of my arguments with counter arguments. You’ve dodged. That’s ok. I’m used to people who have been argued into a corner doing that.
            I hope some day you do what I did, and face those unpleasant facts that the whole of the mormon religion was based on lies by a known charleto, who found a clever way to get money, power, and a lot of sex. Hopefully, you’ll come to know the real Jesus, of the bible. The Jew. The God who created the universe.
            Goodnight, sir.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            No, it isn’t as one cannot argue with success. Why are Mormons so sought after to lead large American organizations?

            No, they aren’t, as the Mormons accept and teach evolution. Been there, done that. Still have the texts and syllabi.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What lies? It’s religion.

          • Mojo

            Satan’s been a liar from the beginning. The bible says he’s the creator of false doctrine. He did a whopper of a job with Islam and the mormons…

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Perfectly expressed.

            I do wonder why he is so activated against this one institution.

            I expect that his family doesn’t understand their religion either, and were likley unaccepting of him and may have even thrown him out, which is wholly un-Mormon.

            I will challenge any Mormon who claims it is required or good to estrange the family or society from one who doesn’t exactly fit the mold. his family may have been unwilling to change their fundamental beliefs simply because he is gay.

            It is likley that he is disappointed in the church for rejecting him, something I can relate to, asI use cannabis as medicine, although there are gay-friendly wards in Oakland, CA and likley elsewhere, even if his family did not reject him.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Do you believe Noah put all the animals in the world on an Arc?

            What is the difference between the stories?

          • Mojo

            “Do you believe Noah put all the animals in the world on an Arc?”
            No, becasue the bible doesn’t say that. That’s why I wonder if mormons actually read what the bible says. It says that GOD brought the animals, two of every kind.
            “What is the difference between the stories?” We have a lot of evidence for a world wide flood. The evidence is everywhere you turn. There’s no evidence at all for any of the mormon claims.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What did Naoah do in the Bible, then, and why has there been a search for the arc? (Can’t wait to hear this one spun off.)

          • Mojo

            Well let’s look at what the bible says, shall we?

            9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah begot three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

            11 The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 So God looked upon the earth, and indeed it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way on the earth.

            13 And God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me, for the earth is filled with violence through them; and behold, I will destroy them with the earth. 14 Make yourself an ark of gopherwood; make rooms in the ark, and cover it inside and outside with pitch. 15 And this is how you shall make it: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, its width fifty cubits, and its height thirty cubits. 16 Youshall make a window for the ark, and you shall finish it to a cubit from above; and set the door of the ark in its side. You shall make it with lower, second, and third decks. 17 And behold, I Myself am bringing floodwaters on the earth, to destroy from under heaven all flesh in which is the breath of life; everything that is on the earth shall die. 18 But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark—you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you. 19 And of every living thing of all flesh you shall bring two of every sort into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. 20 Of the birds after their kind, of animals after their kind, and of every creeping thing of the earth after its kind, two of every kind will come to you to keep them alive. 21 And you shall take for yourself of all food that is eaten, and you shall gather it to yourself; and it shall be food for you and for them.”

            22 Thus Noah did; according to all that God commanded him, so he did.”

            That’s what he did.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            How is that any different than the crossing of the Atlantic in a similar craft with the finger of God protecting you?

          • Mojo

            It’s different because we can see what the world wide flood did to the world. We can’t find one shred of evidence for anything the book of mormon speaks of.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Have you excavated in and around Palmyra, NY? No, you haven’t.

            Anywhere in Central or Northern South America, where it is most likely that the BoM peoples lived?

            What possessions of Joseph Smith’s do you think were stolen, destroyed or misappropriated when the group was driven, violently, out of NY, OH, IL & MO?

          • Eric Johnson

            And your point is? Is Noah the onlymone who received special instructions or communications with God?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            After 20 years of life in Europe, my most constant remarks on which I have been evaluated have mentioned my very open mind.

            I speak 2 foreign languages,which means I was not brought up in a LDS-only or primarily LDS community.

            Too bad for you that you will never be able to open your mind that far, as you are too busy trying to prove the LDS church and Mormons are somehow inferior to you.

            How self-righteous ad sanctimonious of you.

          • Mojo

            Actually, the mormons quietly swept that one under the rug a few years ago. It was either 2007 or 2008 that the newest version of the BoM came out, omitting those references. DNA evidence is not in their favor.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            I used my dad’s Book of Mormon in College in the 80s, the one he grew up with, pre-18, 35 years before I went to college.

            It was exactly the same BoM as the one many college kids bought and that was taught in class.

            Also the same BoM as in the late 90s in the Netherlands.

            What references were taken out, exactly?

            So Keep in mind in have a 70 year old BoM to compare any alleged changes.

          • Mojo

            For one, on the online version of the BoM, The words “skin of blackness” were removed from the introductory summary in 2 Nephi, Chapter 5, in describing the “curse” God
            put on disbelieving Lamanites.

            In Mormon, Chapter 5, the heading changes from calling Lamanites “a dark, filthy, and loathsome people” to “because of their unbelief, the Lamanites will be scattered, and the Spirit will cease to strive with them.” In both cases, the text itself remains unchanged.

            How about 2 Nephi 30:6 (pre 1981): “…their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a white and a delightsome people.” And then POST 1981: “and their scales of darkness shall begin to fall from their eyes; and many generations shall not pass away among them, save they shall be a pure and a delightsome people.”

            Just for kicks, let’s see what some past Mormon Presidents have said concerning this, shall we?:”You may inquire of the intelligent of the world whether they can tell why the aborigines of this country are dark, loathsome, ignorant, and sunken into the depths of degradation …When the Lord has a people, he makes covenants with them and gives unto them promises: then, if they transgress his law, change his ordinances, and break his covenants he has made with them, he will put a mark upon them, as in the case of the Lamanites and other portions of the house of Israel; but by-and-by they will become a white and delightsome people” (Journal of Discourses 7:336).

            Or how about this one: Spencer Kimball utilized 2 Nephi 30:6 when he stated how the Indians “are fast becoming a white and delightsome people.” He said, “The [Indian] children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation” (Improvement Era, December 1960, pp. 922-3). October 1960 LDS Church Conference.

            A line from the 1981 the introduction page that reads: “…all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are the principal ancestors of the American Indians” has been changed in the 2006 version to say: “…all were destroyed except the Lamanites, and they are among the ancestors of the American Indians.” I guess that DNA evidence saying that American Indians have no relation to Jews was pretty damning.

            Yours is only 70 years old? I got you beat by 26.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            When? Why would they not have collected old BoM’s then? e are all like little lemmings, according to you.

            I was taught in class at BYU about the skin of blackness, but it is not the skin of any “black,” person today, except for those people in costume in Holland at Christmas playing “Zwarte Piet.” (Google it.)

            Why is it that God in your vision is all powerful,but He could not have done any of the things written about in the BoM?

          • jordonn12

            ya ya ya why do mormons always come up with some lie to cover things they are challenged with. The ever changing mormons…when they get backed into the truth corner they come up with the weirdest explanations….

          • garethWill

            can i just say that native americans share 35% of their genome with europeans, eurasians and the middle east. central and south americans have more polynesian asiatic genome mix. the americas have had a lot of peoples over millennia migrating there as humans where not there to begin with. but what i said before religion is about belief and nothing else

          • JMW

            The church has given a great statement on DNA evidence. Here’s the link:

            https://www.lds.org/topics/book-of-mormon-and-dna-studies?lang=eng

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Yes, Satan is doing his best to keep people from knowing how hateful anti-Mormons like these trolls are.

          • O. Locke

            it isn’t that a person can’t be reasoned with.

            the problem is that YOU as a mormon-cult adherent can’t for the life of you figure out why people won’t purchase the idea that some guy found a stone, put it in a hat, and was able to read golden tablets.

            SHAME ON YOU for trying to comfort yourself and other cult adherents with lies!

          • JMW

            “it isn’t that a person can’t be reasoned with.”

            Ever met a fanboy? Console wars rage on for so long, because a fanboy will never admit that another gaming console is good.

            There lots of people that just can’t be reasoned with, please don’t just be another one of them.

            “the problem is that YOU as a mormon-cult adherent can’t for the life of you figure out why people won’t purchase the idea that some guy found a stone, put it in a hat, and was able to read golden tablets.”

            No, in actuality, the problem is you. More specifically, your actions. You actually believe all the garbage about what the internet says we “believe”. Then you go around spreading those lies. Joseph Smith didn’t put a stone in a hat to translate. I hope you will start checking the reliability of your sources.

            “SHAME ON YOU for trying to comfort yourself and other cult adherents with lies!”

            The greater the good, the greater the evil to rise against it.

            You attempt to put shame on our “lies”, by using the lies Satan has so effectively spread. The only verbal weapon that will truly win in the end is the sword of truth. Be warned, you do not have that sword.

            You have demonstrated that Satan is working through you and others like you, to bring down the restored gospel. Satan is trying as hard as he possibly can, but you are stronger than him. Don’t let him use you!

            I know are undoubtedly offended that I said Satan is working through you, and I’m sorry, but it’s true. He has done his best to work through tons of people. He was never given a body of flesh and blood, and he hates everyone that has one. He wants to drag you down into the gulfs of misery.

            Men are that they might have joy. Is there any joy in fighting against a gospel that preaches of nothing but? We will all have trials, but we will be eternally happy if we truly do our best to follow Christ.

          • O. Locke

            you mormon cult apologists are all the same.

            you can’t debate the point so you try to end discussion with name calling and bigotry.

            SHAME!

            I’m not offended. Christians say the same thing about the mormon-cult. Satan is actually working THROUGH YOU! you might not like those facts but then you need to actually crack the bible and not that psychotic “add-on”, “the book of mormon-cult”.

            just so you know the mormon cult follows joey smith. live with the facts, pal.

            From one human to another:

            I hope you can find a way to get through the delusion and see the truth.

          • JMW

            “you can’t debate the point so you try to end discussion with name calling and bigotry.”

            Humor me. Who has been screaming “SHAME”, and throwing insults in every post? Any insults I’ve given you have been in provocation by you. If you can talk in a civilized manner, people might take you more seriously.

            “SHAME!”

            See what I mean?

            “I’m not offended.”

            Good.

            “Christians say the same thing about the mormon-cult.”

            Then they are hypocrites. We have the restored gospel, and we are labelled as sinners by others trying to find the truth. What does that tell you about Satan’s hold on the world?

            “Satan is actually working THROUGH YOU!”

            What did you say? You’re not shouting enough!

            That’s just a lie Satan wants you to believe, so that you won’t ever actually investigate the gospel. All you’re “facts” have been outrageous lies.

            “you might not like those facts but then you need to actually crack the bible and not that psychotic “add-on”, “the book of mormon-cult”.”

            So… let me get this straight.

            I can’t quote the Bible? Plus, the Book of Mormon isn’t an “add-on”, it’s another record.

            What’s more, if you call the Book of Mormon psychotic, then I really don’t want to see what you call normal. (Btw, it’s called the Book of Mormon because all the books in it were collected and put in by an ancient historian named Mormon.)

            “just so you know the mormon cult follows joey smith. live with the facts, pal.”

            Though he goes by Joseph, yup. He was the first true prophet to come after the apostasy. We follow God, through His prophets.

            “From one human to another:

            I hope you can find a way to get through the delusion and see the truth.”

            After all the lies and insults you throw in my face, I’m surprised you admit I’m human.

            I really hope you will eventually realize just how obviously wrong you are. I’ve disproved each and every one of your “facts”. Why must you persist in trying to do the impossible? (That’s winning against God, btw.)

          • O. Locke

            THINK, MAN!

            I can’t prove to you that you have a jack-in the box under the hood of your car that makes it move. Just like I can’t prove the mormon-cult’s claims that joseph smith found a bunch of golden tablets, spoke with an angel, jews sailed to the Americas 2000 years ago, and that god never knew about dinosaur fossils.

            be reasonable. when the facts are laid bare without the flowery phrases you begin to see how ridiculous it all really is.

            THINK!

          • JMW

            “THINK, MAN!”

            You know, if we stop thinking, we become brain-dead. I’m thinking.

            “I can’t prove to you that you have a jack-in the box under the hood of your car that makes it move.”

            Quite true.

            “Just like I can’t prove the mormon-cult’s claims that joseph smith found
            a bunch of golden tablets, spoke with an angel, jews sailed to the Americas 2000 years ago, …”

            I can’t prove to you that it’s true, but here’s how I know.

            I’ve felt confirmation from the Lord when I was baptized, and when I’ve read the scriptures. If you sincerely ask if the Book of Mormon is true, God has promised that He will confirm it to you.

            “…and that god never knew about dinosaur fossils.”

            He’s always known.

            “be reasonable. when the facts are laid bare without the flowery phrases you begin to see how ridiculous it all really is.”

            I know that God lives. That isn’t ridiculous.

          • O. Locke

            If you were thinking you wouldn’t be so hell bent on proving to yourself that you actually believe what you’re writing.

            immersion in water doesn’t do or mean anything. there is no “mysterious being speaking to your soul”, it all sounds ridiculous and hackneyed when you repeat it to yourself, doesn’t it?

            I was once where you are. THINK.

            you can get past it.

          • JMW

            I know our Heavenly Father lives! He sent His only begotten son, Jesus Christ, do suffer and die for our sins! I know we have a purpose on this earth! I know that the Great Plan of Salvation is real!

            https://www.lds.org/topics/plan-of-salvation

            Baptism by immersion is real and sacred. Here is an explanation:

            Think about baptism. We put on white clothes, which represent purity.Then we enter the water, which represents the washing away of our sins through the Atonement.
            After the words of the ordinance are spoken, we are immersed in the water. Going under the water imitates the death and burial of Jesus Christ, and it also represents the death of the natural man within us. Being raised again from the water imitates the Resurrection of Jesus Christ, and it also represents being born again as disciples of Christ under covenant to follow Him.

            (source: https://www.lds.org/new-era/2007/02/the-simplicity-of-symbols?lang=eng)

            You may call it ridiculous and hackneyed, but I will never deny Christ!

          • O. Locke

            THINK, Man!

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Stop screaming, man. People can only stand so much of idiocy like that.

            What are you so angry about?

          • O. Locke

            do you really believe that some guy found some golden plates and translated them with an angel. or that the angel spoke in 17th century english.

            I know you don’t believe that and I wouldn’t expect anyone to believe that creepy, cultish idea.

            thanks for allowing me to clarify, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Many sects use full immersion.

            Did you see the Fox TV program from this season called utopia?

            A couple of the participants are Christian ministers, and they showed at least one full immersion baptism, which was no LDS baptism.

            Where is your criticism?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            “If I were thinking?”
            Why do you need to cast debate opponents as in some way inferior to you?

            Why do you need to scream?

          • O. Locke

            it is precisley BECAUSE people are equals that I hold them to a particular standard.

            people should think.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Do you?

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            It is hard to deal with the facts. mormon cult doctrine and practices make it difficult to accept the truth but youre going to have to learn to live with it.

            thanks for your input, pal

          • Eric R. Johnson

            It is truly fun to eviscerate people like you truly deserving of the term troll. You’re thrashing about in every direction trying to poke holes in stuff you clearly don’t understand.

            It’s fun to hit Las Vegas like this and be able to make you look so bad.

            You please tell me specifically what practices and doctrine you refer to? It is unclear what your complaint is and you refuse to become specific: A classic hallmark of a troll.

            I’m more than happy to sit here and make you look like a fool, but I need to take A half hour break and go get a hamburger.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            you gotta love when the mormon cult apologist begins labeling and asking you why their cult is in fact a cult.

            you should be ashamed of yourself, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Why should I know my faith is an alleged Cult? According to you, I am brainwashed. I was very foolish to have spent 4 years at BYU-Hawaii 30 years ago. I got the highest quality education, particularly in my own faith, as there were weekly devotional addresses by LDS big Whigs or authors, or others as well as 14 credit hours of academic work on the subject of the LDS scripture, all at the lowest price, placed in the most beautiful environment one could imagine, just up from where they filmed lost, and just down from the best surfing in the world.

            Except for the $4 six pack of beer, I could not have been in a cooler place. Not Harvard(brrr), Not Stanford, Not USCD (popular at the time) or UC Berkeley(3 hours from home on a single road.)

            Nope, BYU-Hawaii in the mid-eighties. Sucks to be you, huh?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            About what? I truly know not what you mean, though I’ve been hearing it all my life, concerning the LDS Church.
            Apologist?
            Why do you have to cast your debate opponent as being somehow inferior to you, without offering any evidence to either that point, nor defining what a cult is. I begin to think you only know the word from some talking points, but you don’t have any idea what one is, nor can you use it in a sentence were it is not a predicate adjective.

            Dry defining the noun for once, coward.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            what facts?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            OK, you don’t.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Why do you need to scream?

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Assumes facts not in evidence.

          • O. Locke

            sure, pal.

            you can have the last word on that.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Do not get in my face and scream using that red, spitting face you’ve got going at this point.

            Then tell me where you were, how you know where I am, while first defining where I am.

            The less you answer the more I shred you un this discussion.

            People are hysterically laughing at the thrashing you are getting here, pal. (to me pal is a TV color system in Europe, anyway.)

          • Eric R. Johnson

            what do you know of what I believe? FYI, you cannot out Mormon me, but I still have a 3500 dollar coffee machine.

            To which I will now walk and have it make me a delicious latte.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Again, why must you start by screaming. Clearly you have stopped thinking and your brain has died. Thank you for the heads up.

            No, you cannot prove a negative. It is not just in religious affairs that this is the case.

            What is a cult? You have steadfastly refused to define a word you seem not to understand.

            Explain to us exactly what a cult is and how the LDS church fulfills said criteria.

            Otherwise STFU.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Clearly, if youhave to star and end each of your pieces by screaming “THINK!!!,” you clearly have nothing to say on the subject.

            You are here with it seems to me several Mormon Scolars, and if you had real evidence of culthood, here and now would be the place.

            But you don’t, so you scream.

            As soon as you reference the Nazis, you will; have lost the argument completely according to Godwin’s Law. (google it if you haven’t heard of it, which you likley haven’t as you spend way too much time hating Mormons.

            What would you like to do with us? Re-educate us, which means brainwashing to your liking?

            Tell us, what we should do…. Find a place in Liberia and move there, never to bother you again?

            Did they buy a piece of property you wanted?

            I cannot for the life of me understand why you are so angry and upset with Mormons and mormonism.

            Can you explain it?

          • O. Locke

            go read the book of mormon cult.

            then come back and talk to me.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            The book of mormon cult? I don’t find a book with that title.

            You are un able to talk. You are able to scream talking points, like a baby demanding a diaper change, but you are unable to speak on this or likely any subject.

            What do you do for a living, Pal?

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            go find the rdiculous text written by the ‘profit’ joseph (I liked the ladies) smith. it is a quite obvious fraud and mormon cultists should be ashamed they believe it.

            thanks for your questions, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            where is your campaign against the rest of the Christian myths?

            The LDS church too successful for you?

            Are you jealous that people follow good, rather than your raging, hateful nonsense?

          • O. Locke

            the mormon cult is successful at lying.

            thanks for pointing that out to me.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            About what is the LDS Church lying?

            Be very specific, if you are able.

            Otherwise you make yourself look worse and worse, every time I ask you for facts and explanations, and you provide nothing but screamed ad hominem.

            That is not talking nor debating, nor even proving a point.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            I don’t owe you any explanations. asking for explanations when you live int he U.S. and have access to books and the internet should make you feel ashamed of yourself AND the mormon-cult for preventing you from learning the most elementary truths about joseph smith.

            But here are a few: monson talks to go? god hated the blacks til 78’? baptism of the dead. plural marriage. shunning.

            just to name a few. I could go into the absolutely ridiculous mormon cult beliefs but it isn’t worth it.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What is a cult? How exactly is the LDS church a Cult, I’m so sick of this, as I’ve been hearing it all of my life.

            Yet nobody can or will,mostly will, define cult and show with arrows how exactly the LDS church is a cult.

            You can’t or simply won’t, as you seem more interested in calling people names in a spirit of vicious vitriol.

          • O. Locke

            joseph smith? god hating blacks til 78? killing innocent women and children? prop 8?

            mormon-cult

          • Eric R. Johnson

            What was the USA like until 1978?

            What was Spencer Kimball’s, someone I met when I was 15 1/2, response when he conetemplated the question that he had a definite missionary task assigned from God… Why should that be limited to nice White places like Europe and South Africa, and Asian places, but not to predominatly Black areas?

            His answer was to advance the church to the then current societal standards.

            Given how much the church had from violent idiots who tarred-and-feathered Smith, and drove the group from New York, to Ohio, to Illinois, to Missouri and finally 1000 miles west over a huge set of mountains, I hardlyu think anyione from that set of progenitors (you) has any business judging people doing exactly what the founders of the origunal 13 colonies did…Homestead an (ostensibly,or not by us yet) unused piece of land to practice their religious beliefs.

            No different than Mass, Pennsylvania, Virginia etcetera.

            What skin is it off your nose that they exist?

          • O. Locke

            you have it wrong, pal.

            the mormon cult was FOUNDED on racial hatred and bigotry. you can use the “well everyone was doing it” defense if you like but it’s kinda lame.

            I know it’s hard but you’re going to have to learn to live with the facts. the only violence I see comes from the mormon cult.

            the mormon cult wants to deny people’s right and they should be ashamed of themselves.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Firstly, I’m not your pal. That is a term of endearment reserved exclusively for my parents, Who have been calling me that for 50 years. My name is Eric. You may address me as Mr. Johnson.

            Will you please please define the term called and draw the arrows showing how the LDS church is a cult.

            If you cannot do so I invite you to shut up.

            You have provided no facts for me to live with, So you have got to, “change my life,” with any information at all.

            Clue: name-calling is not equal to imparting information.

            Which rights does the LDS church want to deny? Be very specific here, if you can and dare.

            Why dare? The one thing you have shown yourself to be in this discussion is a coward.

          • O. Locke

            look, buddy.

            that is one of the great things about your cult. I don’t have to show you the facts. you should go find them. you should be ashamed that someone can tell you things about your cult that you never knew.

            go ask your elder about the teachings of brigham young. or about joseph smith. open racists that god didn’t tell he would be changing his mind about the basic beliefs of their cult.

            the mormon cult is bigoted and hateful. Women need to be given the same rights as men. why can women not hold the priesthood.

            SHAME ON YOU FOR SUPPORTING THE SUBJUGATION OF WOMEN!

          • Eric R. Johnson

            Racial hatred and bigotry? Perhaps. But was it any different then the standard racial hatred and bigotry which existed up until the Civil War, the civil rights fear of the 1960s?

            Did Southern Baptists support or eschew,” separate but equal,” and Jim Crow?

            What is the South of the United States like today? Where is the Mormon church located? Where are most of the Mormons in United States? Actually there are more outside the United States than in the United States, due to very successful missionary work all over the world.

            What have you done to make the world better place?

            Be extremely specific. Being an Internet troll with an agenda against a certain group or institution does not make the world a better place.

            Perhaps you could spend some time volunteering at your local elementary school. That way you would actually be able to help rather than just sitting here spewing lies and hatred in the way that you do.

            Have you ever read your own posts?

            If not, you should. You look so bad as to be indescribable without having this post removed.

          • O. Locke

            look, pal.

            the mormon cult still practices hatred and bigotry. you might not like those facts but your going to have to learn to live with them.

            thanks for allowing me to clarify my position on the mormon cult.

            take it easy, pal.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            When and where exactly did the LDS Church Kill innocent women and children?

            Prop 8? I do eschew the church for s[peakiong about this in church meetings.

            But people don’t have the right to take a position which is clearly in line with their long-standing beliefs?

            In other words You think Mormons are Horrible because they opposed gay marriage?

            Why do you not call all the other churches which oppose gay marriage, and the states which don’t recognize gay marriage cults and other ad hominem?

            The Catholic Church was good with it?

            Catholic church a Cult?

            Orthodox Church even worse against gays and gay marriage than the catholic church.

            Why is the LDS church the only one you are angry with?

          • O. Locke

            this is the problem with mormon-cult apologists.

            it’s always one sided. mormon-cult apologists never know the history of their cult.

            go look it up.

          • Mojo

            Ok, but I know it’s false, because I used to be a part of it. And i testify THAT in the name of the actual Jesus Christ of the bible, not Joseph Smith’s version of Jesus Christ.

          • Eric R. Johnson

            No difference.

          • JMW

            I’m sorry that you’ve left the church. Jesus Christ is the same in the Book of Mormon and in the Bible.

            https://www.lds.org/bible-videos/videos/unity-of-the-faith?lang=eng

          • Mojo

            In the BIble, he’s God. In the BoM, he’s our spirit brother. That’s not the same guy.

          • Mojo

            I suppose I should correct what I said. The Jesus of the D and C and Pear of Great Price and teh Jesus of the Bible are two different guys. Since you guys derive most of your actual doctrine from those two books, I should refer to those…

          • jordonn12

            Jesus Christ is ABSOLUTELY NOT the same in the BoM and the BIBLE. What planet are you from? You obviosuly don’t know the Real Jesus

          • Beatrice

            JMW. Your Mormon’ s Jesus is not the same as in the Bible. You know Muslims have their Jesus too. I too grew up around the Mormon people and I was told to pray and ask then I will find that Mormon book is true. I too can testify in the name of my Mighty living GOD, Lord Jesus Christ, I was shown while I was taking a nap, I can testify that JS was not His prophet.
            I believed that Muhammad and Joseph Smith encountered with entities beyond human beings, but not from true living GOD. These 2 men and many who claimed to be prophets of GOD are not from GOD but SATAN. Both had multiple wives. JS had about 38 wives and among them were children and others’ men’ wives. JS boasted that he did more work than Jesus to keep a Church together. Mormon church history, vol. 6, p. 408-409.

          • jordonn12

            You can testify all you want…your JC is a false JC. Also you can not go by the warm fuzzy feeling in your gut. The bible is adamant they we NEVER go by our feelings as we will be lead astry. Wake up! and stop with this testifying crap.

          • João Stricker

            Why and how do You know ? Through the feelings You got ? This is wrong! Read and learn how evil and satânic mormonism is ! You Will see

          • OL

            Brainwashed, your religion is so young yet has already changed so many of its core beliefs set up by your brilliant prophet Joseph Smith, polygamy and severe racial hatred to name a few (the mark of cain, look into it!). It shapes is teachings towards public approval to increase its atractiveness as a religion and increase members (i.e. continually softening it views on gays and african americans in the church to more subtly blend with public belief).

            Plus its such a shame they use such suffocating methods to keep their members ‘believing’, and create such a fear mongering and possesive environment. im sorry you are so far into this man, i just pray that you will be able to find the true version of christ, the one that has stood against the test of time and is centered on love not judgement and exclusion. anyway you have fun in those garments!

          • Amanda Altamirano

            Your error is the cornerstone that you build from.You start with faith to get to truth instead of building off of truth. You had to accept self dilusion to get to ” the church is true” You can not believe your way to truth. You have to get truth first. Mormons have fallen for Satans lie and are hell bound.

          • indigo1898

            Oh, you evil Mormon shill! Your church is doomed! The one holy God, will see to that!

          • Draco Welcovich

            I testify that any religion founded on lies and deceit cannot be of God the Father, God the Son, or God the Holy Spirit since God is not the father of lies but of Truth. He is not the author of confusion. That job belongs to Satan and his army of fallen angels. Notice I said fallen angels, that would be created beings…not some weird spirit babies that came about after “elohim” had sex with his false goddess wife for the fifteenth trillion time. Please be brave enough to investigate what has been forced upon you. Trust Jesus. Call on His holy name and ask for guidance. Ask Him to show you His truth. Read the Bible for yourself. When something in the Bible contradicts the Pearl of Great Price or the Book of Abraham you would be wise to investigate why that is. The important thing is to do this study alone…just you, God, and the 66 books of the Holy Bible. Read with a willingness to learn. Once you learn what I know you will, you must be brave enough to follow the true path. I am praying for you and everyone on this forum.

          • Draco Welcovich

            Wind em up and watch em go…the automaton church of Joseph Smith. With fingers in their ears and eyes shut to reason, they boldly testify of what they’re told to believe in. Theirs is not to question why but to turn their gaze from and deny all evidence placed before their eyes. Poor poor souls of wayward thought through con and fraud their “church” was wrought.

          • Amanda Altamirano

            JMW, you give your brainwashed confession. Sure you have faith. It is just misplaced. Mormons start with faith and progress to truth. Christians start with truth and build faith upon that. When you take the challenge in the front of the Book of Mormon, “Pray about the book of Mormon and see if it’s true” , you already took a bite of the forbidden fruit. The moment you take that challenge, they “hooked” you and you have opened the door to demons. After that you go into self-deception. If you don’t get a witness, whose fault is it? Oh so you don’t have enough faith. So you pray harder and fast, cycle repeats until you get a satanic reponse. Sure the book of mormon is the true product of the Satanically inspired juvenile delinquent, Joseph Smith. He plagerized quite a bit of it from the Bible and then added to it. There are only 2 religions in the world: 1) Do it yourself, and 2) God did it. Mormons are following the “do it yourself” They do not know God. Mormonism teaches that the atonement was by Jesus in the Garden of Gesthemane. It was not. He had not even been arrested, let alone charged and convicted at that point. What occurred in the Garden was agony because he knew what he was going to have to go through. The atonement happened AFTER Jesus was convicted. It occurred on the cross. Satan hates the cross for this reason. Mormons will do anything to avoid the cross. Mormons are not saved and their reward for their good works is here in this earth. After that judgement and hell for all of eternity. It doesn’t matter what a Mormon believes. They don’t start with the foundation of truth. What Jesus (God) says is what counts. Good place to start is John chapter 1. BTW the Book of Mormon contradicts itself on the first page and contradicts Mormonism’s entire doctrine. Book of Mormon says pg 1 This book contains the fulness of the everlasting gospel. But it does NOT. Joseph Smith had to write the Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great Price. Then all 3 contradict each other. Just another man-made religion to satisfy the flesh.

          • JoanRoberts

            Your mindless testimony should be saved for church where it is appreciated. You link is biased and shares no real truth.

        • Eric R. Johnson

          Please be specific with your charges, sir. exactly why is the LDS Church a cult? And who are you to be deciding that is the case? What credentials do you bring to the table to be able to make such a determination.

          • jordonn12

            Why is the lds church a cult…hmmm perhaps for starters it founded on plagerism and lies,, the founder a pedophile and con artist…

      • jordonn12

        Mormonism is not Christian because it denies that there is only one God, denies the true Gospel, adds works to salvation, denies that Jesus is the uncreated creator, distorts the Biblical teaching of the atonement, undermines the authority and reliability of the Bible, says that God used to be a man who came from another planet and that we can become gods and that there is a goddess mother in heaven, etc.

        CARM does not deny that Mormons are decent helpful people and that they do many good things. But that isn’t what makes someone Christian–nor does putting “Jesus Christ” in your title make you Christian if you deny who Jesus really is. Jesus said in Matthew 7:21-23, “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name? And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!” (NKJV).

        Notice that Jesus condemns those who combine their faith with their works in order to be saved. If you doubt that, see also Luke 18:9-14 where Jesus teaches the same thing again.

        Becoming a Christian does not mean belonging to a church, doing good things, or simply believing in a god from another planet. Being a Christian means that you have trusted in the true God for salvation, received the True Jesus–not the brother of the devil, not the god of Mormonism, not the gospel of Mormonism. Becoming a Christian means believing the Gospel of Christ, who is God in flesh, 2nd person of the Trinity, who was sent by the Father, bore our sins in His body on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24), died, was buried and rose again (1 Cor. 15:1-4). You must trust Jesus. Believe what He did. Put your faith in Him.

        Mormonism is false and cannot save anyone.

    • John Phillip Cunningham

      all religions are cults google it and see. a cult is any religion, or group involved in lieing and brainwashing, which they
      all do

      • Eric R. Johnson

        Be specific. What Mormon is brainwashing whom? The LDS church is a Democratic institution. With unpaid clergy.

    • Eric R. Johnson

      Love it… nothing new here. hatred right at the beginning. Define cult. Why is the LDS church a cult? Be specific, if you can, as you likley know nothing which is correct about the LDS church.

      • Mojo

        So if someone dissagrees with you, it’s hate? You sound like the homosexuals. If you dare not accept their lifestyle, it’s ‘hate”. They can’t argue for their lifestyle, so they fling that word. Sounds like you’ve learned that lesson from them.

    • anonymous

      what mormon cult are you talking about. Many nice people live in my ward and

      i bet if you met every mormon in the world you would not say that we are a hatered and racist cult

      • jordonn12

        no what i would say is mormons are gullible non thinking and life in fear…they are conned into not doing research and finding the truth…you are right many nice people…just very gullible. They never will address ALL the facts that scream CULT

    • jordonn12

      The Book of Mormon (Mormonism’s principal holy book) has undergone thousands of changes since it was first published. Most Mormons are not aware of this fact. Many of these changes affect the actual doctrine that the Mormon Church officially teaches.

      For example, the book used to refer to the ancestors of the North American Indians as becoming ‘White and delightsome’ upon converting to the Mormon religion. This was later changed to read ‘Pure and delightsome’, in order to avoid charges of racism from opponents of the Mormon Church.

      In fact, based upon the earlier reading of the Book of Mormon – until a few short decades ago, Mormon leaders used to comment on how Indians who converted to Mormonism would become lighter in their skin colour than their non-believing siblings.

      A good example of this is the Mormon leader Spencer W. Kimball, who said, “I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian people today… they are fast becoming a white and delightsome people…For years they have been growing, as they were promised…The children in the home placement program in Utah are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the reservation.”

    • disqus_UZrzuW8WD3

      Or you’re in a cult posing as a religion to make such an ignorant and bigoted statement as that. i.e. the cult of anti-mormonism. I don’t say that to be “joking” either, I say it as fact. Only a cult would need to LIE in nearly everything they say about a people, group, or thing. And who is the Father of Lies?

      I don’t believe in and/or disagree with a lot of people and things, but I don’t have to LIE about them in order to do so. But anti-mormons do. As a former anti-mormon, I actually know this for certain as well. I see over and over how anti-mormons lie.

      You don’t have to believe me either, just go to http://www.fairmormon.org and compare what anti-mormons say with the actual and full facts and truth.

  • garethWill

    people tend to think what they believe is true and scratch the surface of many christian denominations and sects there is hidden homophobia just under the surface. also exstream mormon polygamist sects who i may add are not part of the LDS church or community of christ are just as restrictive and crazy as the Independent fundamental Baptists (IBF). but very little about the abuse of women in those groups, mainly what i am saying it is a disparotional to hate one group for thing that the others groups do openly

  • Charles McPherson

    I think the problem is that Mormons as a group make a show of ‘lordly tolerance’ of others, but are most interested in the in-group. This is fine; it’s one of the bases of human psychology and sociology. However, Mormons tend to be inhospitable to those outside their faith. I’m a Catholic who has lived in Utah for about five years now. I have received much more politeness, respect and hospitable treatment from the people in the mosque up the block from my apartment than I have from any Mormon in Utah. with the possible exception of my girlfriend’s parents. The problem is that Mormons are very heavily attached to this idea of ‘oppressed persecuted outgroup’ that they fail to be an ecumenical institution. They bandy this idea of oppression to anybody who will listen, blithely forgetful of the fact that the LDS church owns the state of Utah and has strong holdings in Idaho, Wyoming and Arizona. Moreover, Utah Mormons collectively seem to like it better that way. They don’t want diversity of thought and are not terribly intellectually inclined if the intellectual outcome does not serve them. They lack the Jewish and Muslim penchant for serious scholarship or the Catholic emphasis on education as a route out of poverty. If this is the case, fine. But I for one cannot wait to finish my degree and get out of this desolate inbred wasteland with its regressive and insular thinking, vanity and false cheeriness.

  • Eric Clermont Player

    Interesting the amount of hate that pops up on this discussion about how Mormons are hated.

  • Natalie M Schmidt

    Being an inactive member of the LDS church, and a former resident of Salt Lake City, UT, I have some strong feelings about this topic.
    I truly love the LDS church and it’s members. They well intentioned kind hearted people. As with any religion, there is the good and there is the bad.
    The bad:
    The excuse that most people used to be a racist to justify members of African decent being unable to hold the priesthood. The problem with this justification is that most people were not racist until 1978. The LDS church really was about 20 years behind everyone else. Having been an active member of the church in the past, I still felt the taint of racism at church. Enough that is bothered me, and led me to have serious doubts about the infallibility of the church’s doctrines. Claiming everyone else was racist too really does not make it ok. To it’s credit, the LDS church finally acknowledged it’s racist past, but to it’s discredit no apology was offered.
    Women are unable to hold the priesthood. I can’t stomach all the excuses I’ve heard for this patriarchal garbage. My favorite (by favorite I mean least favorite) was used in this thread. If a woman is raising kids, she would become overwhelmed by family duties and church duties. I feel this alone implies several things. The first, and most alarming to me is that men should not be held as accountable as women in the raising of children. The second is that women are weaker than men, and that is why men are able to have a career, raise a family and uphold priesthood duties. It’s absurd. I saw this blatant sexism with the young men’s and young women’s meetings. The girls would sometimes make something for the boys and serve it to them, but the boys never returned the favor. My then 12 year old son told me it make him uncomfortable, and he wanted to make something for the girls. When he brought this up at his meeting, one of the grown men that is there to teach these boys how to be men scoffed at him, and laughed it off.
    The homophobia is out of control. I could write a novella on this alone. If you don’t like gay marriage, don’t be in one. You don’t have to spend millions of dollars and use platforms like General Conference to make sure everyone knows the LDS church still officially views being homosexual as a sin. That is why so many members don’t live their personal truth on many levels. There is so much judgement. I don’t feel this behavior is very Christlike. I have compassion for active members, because I know they are trying to do what they feel is right for their families. So is everyone else, including the GLBT.

    The idea that the LDS doctrine is the only way to truth and salvation was always hard for me to stomach. I was a convert, and I felt for the church to teach that somehow gives it’s members that they are superior because they have the truth. Along with being the only “true church” is the persecution complex. I often heard that because we have the truth, we are persecuted as Jesus was persecuted. I wonder if Jehovas Witnesses and Quakers feel the same way. Many denominations have been persecuted, and I’m pretty sure they can’t all have the absolute truth. Also, for a group that feels it has been persecuted, they sure are willing to infringe on others rights.

    I could write negatives all day, but I will say there is a lot of love. I will always have love for the LDS church, even if it doesn’t have love for me. I appreciate their dedication to family, helping the needy and their faith in their doctrine. I love my new church; I also love and appreciate my old church.

    • Alys B. Cohen-Sacred Blood Aut

      People being unable to hold priesthood based on race is racism. Women being unable to due to sex is sexism. Anyone who wants to claim racism didn’t exist until 1978 is racist and ignoring history.

      It’s hard to find a lot of love in any church that oppresses people for sex and sexuality and that believes it has the right to baptize dead people of other faiths. The love for people who follow the same path is conditional love.

  • Mason Witt

    Look. I’m just a kid. But, I could school any of you who think my religion is a cult. I truly feel sorry for you. In Moroni chapter 10 verses three and four it reads
    3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

    4 And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.
    Moroni 10:3-4

    I would invite you to read the Book of Mormon before judging us. And pray about it. Also if any of you would like to know why you are wrong about why you think the LDS church is a cult feel free to respond.

    • harry coleman

      Look kid nobody believes the book of moron except morons.I’ve read that book of crap.It’s just that…crap.

      • Mason Witt

        What part of the Book Of Mormon is crap? Name a specific part.

        • harry coleman

          Specifically…all of it…from cover to cover.

          • JMW

            I;m sorry you feel that way. I, for one, know the Book of Mormon is true. It is another testament of Jesus Christ.

          • harry coleman

            Watch the ex mormon files on tv 20…friday nights at 8…If you’re brave enough.Be sure you’re alone so you don’t get kicked out of the house.I’m sure you won’t.

          • harry coleman

            The Bible says “If we or any other man or angel preaches anothe gospel let him be acursed.”

    • sierra

      Look into the plagiarism from the Old King James bible and other works. Also check out the extensive research of Jerald and Sandra Tanner. There is overwhelming, solid evidence available to any one who knows how to use Google or any other search engine.

  • harry coleman

    Mormon doctrine is a lie out of the pit of hell.Most Mormons don’t even know the doctrine of the cult they swear is the only true religion.Gordon Hinckley lied in a court of law during the Mark Hoffman trial and again on Larry King live.He was a false profet and a liar…like most prophets of cults.Joseph Smith was a thief and womanizer.Why would anyone follow such losers? Mormons won’t confront the lies of they’re leaders or the doctrine.

  • John Phillip Cunningham

    Anger and rejection is the first part of healing, then remorse….. I know because i’ve been through it.
    I hurts which is far better then hurting others, some will find that out, others will dwell in the past and never get past it., because of the pain involved.
    I cried just about ever day for two or more years and i did not even accept it,
    i can’t imagain the pain of those who do or did. the trail of tears is a long road.
    love always John cunningham aurora co.

  • Paul Lang

    the mormon-cult is a hateful bigoted organization that engages in campaigns of hatred against minorities. this is the the most hilarious comment in this whole blog lmao its hilariously false considering the enormous large amounts of minoritys that belong to the church and follow the churches teachings i am proud to lds and i would gladly die as one as any other person who is as dedicated to there own religion

  • jordonn12

    What I don’t get is why mormons don’t do research into the founder of this cult. At one time they were not allowed to. No excuse now adays. Joseph Smith was a thief, pedophile and liar according to history. How can any intelligent person follow a religion that has a founder and foundation like this???? Cults are an amazing thing…Mormons think because they do good they are somehow a great religion….nothing could be further from the truth….they deny the true Christ of the Bible …and follow a false Christ…they just are to fearful to discover this. Remember the days were they were outcasts etc if they didn’t follow protcol….a true sign of control and a cult.

  • Madi

    Having grown up in Utah, lived my life around the LDS church, and actually attended a few church lessons out of curiosity (although I, myself, claim no religion) I can say, at least from my own personal experiences, the Mormon religion is really just like any other. There are extremists in all religions that give them a bad name.
    For example, I had a neighbor growing up who was the Relief Society President in her LDS stake. She, although a generally nice person, was extremely judgmental and she rode her high-horse everywhere she went. She was the epitome of the Mormon stereotype.
    But not all of them are like that. In fact, most of them are not.
    Perhaps you heard something about the Mormon church that you disagree with, or you know an extremist who has given you a warped idea of the church. Putting the religion down as a whole makes you no better than those Mormons who claim to be “perfect.”

    Just food for thought.

  • sierra

    There is a lot of distrust because Mormons aggressively evangelize and do so deceptively. A lot of the unbiblical, bizarre, occultic beliefs (populating planets, trying to become gods, coffee as evil, salvation by works, etc.) are hidden and they try to come off as an alternative branch of Christianity. The religion was made up by Joseph Smith, by all accounts by very hokey witchcraft. Seeing stones? magical hats? A lost message to a conveniently gone without a trace civilization? …I’ll stick with my Bible. It’s enough. Paul said it best, “But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!” Galatians 1:8 That is exactly what Joseph Smith, like so many others, did. Modern day followers are being led astray, putting their trust in a false gospel and dying and going to hell. That is why people don’t like Mormons.

  • Norlene k Hopkins

    They treat women like second class people it makes me sick no daughter of mine wound ever belong to that sect who in the hell do those men think they are in that stupid cult.

  • imjustaguy

    Mojo provides all the proof of just a few of the inconsistencies between LDS doctrine and biblical teachings. I read that someone was supposed to pay whoever provided proof a thousands dollars. Did Mojo get paid? Also wanted to comment on JS getting tarred and feathered because it was mentioned that an angry mob had done the tarring. The mob was actually made of fellow LDS folks, lashing out at a claim that he had sexual relations with a 12 year old girl.

  • jordonn12

    No it doesn’t bother me. Joseph Smith was a pedophile and crook. Use your brain and do some research. The mormon church follows a false jesus,,,,NOT the Jesus taught in the Bible. Your’s is a man made. Why would I feel sorry for a child molester such as JS. He is a con artist and thief…..again do your due diligence and discover the truth…oh I forgot your are warned against research and will be shunned if you question anything to any degree. A true sign of a cult…..

  • jordonn12

    1. JS purchased the golden tablets with money he made by swindling people by stone gazing, misleading many.
    2. even his family members stated JS was a stone gazer and pleaded with him to give it up based on their own testimony.
    3. JS was arrested, indicted in a court of law, spent time in jail according to court documents for ripping people off with his stone gazing.
    4. after several Egyptologists correctly translated the ancient Egyptian manuscript JS claimed was the book of Abraham, turns out it was nothing more than old ritual embalming instructions.
    5. people must realize the cultic church movement that came out of the mid 1800’s, seventh day Adventism, Jehovah’s witness, christadelphians along with Mormonism.

    Mormons, are you willing to spend eternal damnation based on the teachings of a con artist?

  • jordonn12

    Brigham Young, one of Mormonism’s early leaders, and the one who lead the Mormons to Utah, taught in his official capacity as Mormonism’s ‘prophet’ that the first man Adam, and God the Father, were one – and – the same – being. Speaking of Adam he said, and I quote, “Now hear it, O inhabitants of the earth, Jew and Gentile, Saint and Sinner! When our father Adam came into the garden of Eden, he came into it with a celestial body, and brought Eve, one of his wives, with him. He helped to make and organize this world. He is Michael, the Archangel, the Ancient of Days, about whom holy men have written and spoken. He is our father and our God, and the only God with whom we have to do. Every man on the earth, professing Christians or non professing, must hear it, and know it sooner or later.”

    For those who may doubt that Brigham Young actually taught such things, you can find this quote for yourself in the Mormon Church’s Journal of Discourses, volume one, page 50.

    Speaking of Jesus Christ, Brigham Young said during a discourse given Sunday night, February 19, 1854: “Who did beget him? His Father, and his father is our God, and the Father of our spirits, and he is the framer of the body, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. Who is he? He is Adam; Michael; the Ancient of days.” And this is from the Brigham Young Papers, Feb 19, from the Church Historians Office, in Salt Lake City)

    One more Brigham Young quote on this subject:

    “How much unbelief exists in the minds of the Latter Day Saints in regard to one particular doctrine which I revealed to them, and WHICH GOD REVEALED TO ME; namely that ADAM IS OUR FATHER AND GOD.” (Sermon by Brigham Young, printed in the Deseret News, June 14, 1873)

    I could spend hours telling you about the Adam/God doctrine, but I think what I have said will suffice to prove that it is a doctrine that really was officially taught by the early Mormon Church. But to drive the point home, I’ll share with you a quote from Bruce R. McConkie: In a letter to a man named Eugene England, McConkie wrote, “Yes, President Young did teach that Adam was the father of our spirits, and all the related things that the cultists ascribe to him … He expressed views that are out of harmony with the gospel.”

    Now, I’ve heard some Mormons argue that Brigham was just giving his opinion. That is utter nonsense! Brigham Young himself sure would take issue with that claim regarding what I have just quoted him as saying.

    In the Brigham Young collection, in the LDS Church Archives, in an unpublished manuscript, Brigham is quoted as saying, “It is my duty to see that correct doctrine is taught and to guard the church from error, it is my calling.”

    If you are a Mormon, I’m sure you’ll agree with him on that point, so consider the following:

    Brigham Young declared that it was his gift and calling to teach true doctrine and to guard the Mormons against heresy: “What man or woman on the earth, what spirit in the world can say truthfully that I ever gave a wrong word of counsel, a word of advice that could not be sanctioned by the heavens? This is recorded in the Journal of Discourses: Volume12 page 127)

    Ask your Mormon church leaders about Brigham Young’s teachings, they will tell you that Brigham Young was misquoted on the subject of Adam/God. What they will not tell you (and what they probably don’t even know) is that Brigham Young was teaching the Adam/God doctrine even during the last year of his life, 25 years after he first advanced the doctrine. So were many of his contemporaries in the Mormon Church.

    Brigham Young was very vocal with his opinions, and was very quick to point out when he disagreed with what someone said or when he felt that he had been misquoted. It is interesting that those who claim that Brigham Young was misquoted about the Adam/God doctrine cannot come up with even one reference where Brigham Young claimed he had been misquoted the Adam/God doctrine – NOT EVEN ONE!

    • jordonn12

      why do mormon always side step the truth..even when it can be verified in their own history..ie like some mormons JUSTIFYING Brigham Youngs teaching as his OPINION… Those are deceptive mormons trying to whitewash over the truth of what he taught….true sign of a cult

  • jordonn12

    The Mormon Church teaches that black people are descendents of Cain, and that dark skin is a curse, and was the sign that God placed upon Cain.

    The Mormon Church today denies that it has any racist doctrines, but until 1978, they did not admit black people into their priesthood. Also before 1978, Mormon missionaries were not even allowed to attempt to proselytize black people, as they were taught that the gospel message, as they understood it, was not ‘carried affirmatively’ to them. In other words, there was no place in the Mormon’s highest heaven for black people. Most recent Mormon converts are entirely unaware of this, and usually do not believe it when they are told about it. They are taught by the Mormon Church that if I or anyone else should dare to point such things out, that we are just ‘liars who are persecuting the church’. What a pack of nonsense!!

    Let’s take a few minutes and examine this racist doctrine:

    Joseph Fielding Smith said, “There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages. The reason is that we had an estate before we came here, and were obedient; more or less, to the laws that were given us there.” This is quoted from the Doctrines of Salvation, Volume 1.

    And to get back to our friend Brigham Young, listen to what he had to say on the subject: “Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be so.” Journal of Discourses Vol.10.

    “Any man having one drop of the seed of Cain in him cannot receive the priesthood.” Quoted in “That Ye May Not Be Deceived”, on page 3)

    Compare the Mormon church’s position (prior to 1978) on blacks and the priesthood with the reality of human social dynamics: The following is from an article that appeared in Time Magazine June 30, 1958, “A glance tells that many Americans who are classified as Negro have plenty of European “blood”; White people with Negro blood are harder to distinguish, their African genes may not affect their appearance and they do not know that some of their ancestors “passed” [into the “white” category]. In the Ohio Journal of Science, Sociologist Robert P. Stuckert, of Ohio State University attempts to estimate how many white Americans have some African ancestry… When Dr. Stuckert has constructed his table for each census year, he reaches the conclusion that of 135 million Americans classified as white in 1950, about 28 million (21%) had some African ancestry. Of the 15 million classified as Negro, more than 4 million (27%) were of pure African descent. During 1941-50, he estimates, about 155,000 Negroes moved onto the “white” category. People with ancestors who lived in the Roman Empire, including England and part of Germany, are descended from a broad cut of the empire’s population. “The Roman Empire had no color line, and streams of people moved through it for centuries in every direction. Africans – including those with negro ancestry – fought in the legions, [and] traveled as merchants or seamen. Everywhere they went they left their immortal genes. So few white Americans can claim to have none of them, and NONE of them can prove it.”

    How do you reconcile these facts with Brigham Young’s teaching that one drop of negro blood disqualified a person from holding the Mormon priesthood. Many of you who think of yourselves as “white” and who were bearers of the Mormon priesthood prior to 1978 have in you much more than the magical “one drop” of negro blood that Brigham Young said disqualifies one from bearing the priesthood, and most of you probably aren’t even aware of it.

    More recently, Mark E. Petersen said, “We must not intermarry with the Negro. Why? If I were to marry a Negro woman and have children by her, my children would all be cursed as to the Priesthood. Do I want my children cursed as to the priesthood? If there is one drop of Negro blood in my children, as I have read to you, they receive the curse.

    “There isn’t any argument, therefore, as to inter-marriage with the Negro, is there? There are 50 million Negroes in the United States. If they were to achieve complete absorption with the white race, think what that would do. With 50 million Negroes inter-married with us, where would the Priesthood be? Who could hold it, in all America? Think what that would do to the work of the Church!” (Race Problems, as they affect the Church, August 27, 1954)

    If your church was truly of God, and if Brigham Young’s doctrine was true (which it isn’t), the leaders of the Mormon Church would have been able to discern by their alleged priesthood powers that at least 21% of the “white” male members of your church have some of the blood of “Cain” in them and would have known to deny the priesthood to them. They couldn’t discern it by the priesthood because THEY HAVE NO PRIESTHOOD POWER!

    Think about it. If they couldn’t discern their own ancestry, then the Mormon priesthood is of no effect. It is false. It has no power. It is not from God. You may believe that the Mormon Church is God’s only true church, but God doesn’t agree with you – and neither does common sense.

    And it isn’t just black people that the Mormon Church has a history of being prejudiced against. Listen to what Apostle Mark E. Petersen had to say about Chinese people; and I quote: “In spite of whatever they might have done in the pre-existence to justify being born over there as Chinamen, if they now, in this life, accept the gospel and live it the rest of their lives, they can have the priesthood…Isn’t the mercy of God marvelous?”

    The foundation of Mormonism is racist – Spencer Kimball’s 1978 revelation notwithstanding.

  • Robert Joseph Greene

    I’ve been reading the comments here. The LDS PR department is in full force. The LDS Church never apologized to “dark skinned” people stating they were made in the image of the devil. The LDS Church illegally spent MILLIONS to fight gay marriage. Should I go on?

  • trlkly

    Do they cite the actual studies? I’d like to see why Buddhists are hated so much, too. Mormons I can sorta understand, for the reasons you gave (religious disagreement and homophobia/politics), but while I can understand the Evangelical crowd’s hatred for Buddhism (as they think it’s Occultic/Satani), but I don’t know why anyone else has a problem with them.

    Unless this is global, and national traits are getting mixed in. Buddhism is not inherently violent, but you’d never know that by the violent Buddhists in some countries.

    But you imply this is about Americans, so I don’t get it. I’ve never met a non-Evangelical who had a problem with Buddhists.

  • Cris Bessette

    Almost every Christian commenter below calls Mormons a “cult” and consider Mormons to be part of a bastardized version of their own religion.

    Non-religious people also call them a “cult”, referring to their specific beliefs and history.

    Hey at least the Christians and atheists are being brought together by the Mormons!

  • Tanner Evans

    It’s despicable that people can’t research a topic they slander.

  • Danny Stratton

    This is funny. All these people saying “I testify that…” So what. I testify that the true god is Pac Man. And that to be like him we must run from ghosts and eat little dots. Your testimonies mean absolutely nothing to people who aren’t part of your group. And how do you expect anyone to take you seriously when you believe that Joseph Smith founded the church based on something he found in is hat that only he could see? Sound legit!!!

  • oneoveronebyone

    Been a Mormon for 50 years. Never heard a harsh or hateful word about another mans religion or race in a LDS service. We were run out of Missouri and ordered exterminated for being abolitionists, so all you Southern Baptists, and all you southern synod Methodists screaming racist on this thread can just put out your torches and go on home. Not one of you has given up a wife rather than join the confederacy. My great grandfather gave up two. Crack a history book.

  • Milton Jenkins

    A couple of days ago one of my neighbors, who is a Southern Baptist, informed me that Mormons, along with Roman Catholics, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Greek Orthodox, and various others that I can’t remember, are not Christians. Episcopalians (Anglican Catholics) were highly suspect at best. So I guess she would send my mom to Hell. So what gives the Southern Baptist Church, which has given the world racial segregation and the Ku Klux Klan the right to decide who is a Christian?

  • Milton Jenkins

    Apparently my recent post has been eliminated. Why?

  • Milton Jenkins

    A couple of days ago I posted on this site. My post was up for a couple of hours and then disappeared. I posted again in an attempt to find out what was going on. Again it was up for a little while. Again it mysteriously disappeared with no explanation. What gives? .

  • Milton Jenkins

    Again my post was deleted. Why? If this one is deleted, I will give up on this site.

  • Pingback: Pesquisas Mormonas: Blog | Porqué a los mormones les molesta la palabra “mormón”

  • Nate Darrow

    Because they’re the stupidest people I’ve ever met. And to think that one of them almost became my country’s president!

  • shass.love

    CTR.
    Jesus walked the earth not judging nor forcing those He crossed, to believe. He simply taught, expressed His love, and continued on. There were even those who witnessed His miracles whom still did not follow. They did not have Faith in him, nor in a better life. But Jesus had faith in them.

    Jesus did not judge other religions & neither has the LDS members in this conversation. What people say about the Mormon religion, is their opinion and it’s ok. There are other religions shunning the Mormon religion, while Mormons are praying for our Heavenly Father to forgive them.

    The only research we should do, taken from this conversation, is the word CULT. Cult is a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object. Therefore we, all religions & non religious people are in a “cult”.

    Believe in what you will.. or won’t. The Lord believes in you.

  • Christian H

    Mormons will never gain the respect of historians nor any field of responsible science because all of their claims are baseless and fruitless when it comes to geography and archeology. Historians and archeologists can use the Bible as a reliable map for a narrative, Mormons might as well use the Hobbit as their dogma…it may be more reliable. Mormonism is the most pathetic joke of the 19th century alongside Scientology and Jehovah’s Witnesses. One of such a low level of ignorance cannot hope to be awakened in the light of hard facts and research. I was deeply intertwined with the Mormon religious system for about 3 years, as I was in love with a young Mormon woman. I, being a born again Christian, hit a wall with her as we were considering marriage and we ended up being torn apart due to the Mormon idea of sealed marriages and how I couldn’t give her the standing that she wanted…me being non-Mormon prevented her from being able to have a temple marriage and being sealed to a higher degree of Mormon…there is also rmpant and blatant Freemasonry within the cult system.

  • Komit

    It’s a cult. That whole finding scripturess in the desert or such like is absolute hogwash. I’ve met and befriended Mormons in my life but the fact remains it is a cult.

  • 12345

    CAN EVERYONE RESCPECT EACH OTHER HERE. IF OTHER PEOPLE ARE NOT YOUR RELIGION YOU DON’T HAVE TO BASH ON THEM. INSTEAD OF SHOUTING “Your a cunt beleiving your own cult asshole.” WHY CAN’T NON MORMON PEOPLE TRY TO BE FRIENDS WITH A PERSON WITH A DIFFRENT RELIGION WITHOUT RELIGION INTERFERING. LOOK THE MORMONS HERE ARE TRYING TO BE FRIENDLY. p.s FTW I’m not a mormon. I’m just a pacafist who thinks all this bashing about religion is unnecessary. Hey at least its not violent good gawd.

  • jordonn12

    This is very telling and interesting…this is from an atheists (Christopher Hitchens) investigations. To bad mormons couldn’t open their eyes and at least do proper research

    Google

    Christopher Hitchens on Mormons – YouTube

    ▶ 14:12

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_9QVraitjY

  • jordonn12

    9 Facts that the Mormon Church Doesn’t Want You to Know! youtube……………………google it….so easy to prove mormonism is a cult…..

  • jordonn12

    Why was the Book of Mormon cast into the KJV style? “…there is a continual use of the ‘thee’, ‘thou’ and ‘ye’, as well as the archaic verb endings ‘est’ (second person singular) and ‘eth’ (third person singular). Since the Elizabethan style was not Joseph’s natural idiom, he continually slipped out of this King James pattern and repeatedly confused the norms as well. Thus he lapsed from ‘ye’ (subject) to ‘you’ (object) as the subject of sentences (e.g. ‘Mos. 2:19; 3:34; 4:24), jumped from plural (‘ye’) to singular (‘thou’) in the same sentence (Mos. 4:22) and moved from verbs without endings to ones with endings (e.g. ‘yields . . . putteth,’ 3:19).” (The Use of the Old Testament in the Book of Mormon, by Wesley P. Walters, 1990, page 30).

  • jordonn12

    Every Mormon should take the time to educate themselves..this youtube video is priceless…shows what a liar and deceiver Joseph Smith really was…..using your own church history….wow keep bearing your head in the sand…..but mormons won’t bother as they are afraid to know the truth. Mormons are definitely not Christian
    google—– Q and A Former Mormon Bishop, Lee B. Baker youtube.

  • jordonn12

    excellent video

    Intelligent mormons are now ex-mormons because they spent the time researching the bizarre nature of that cult….they could no longer drag their families through this false teaching…many have become true biblical Christians

    google
    “The Collapse of Mormonism: Why Millions Are No Longer Mormons youtube”

  • jordonn12

    mormons keep their head buried out of FEAR…. here is a video that again shows Joseph Smith is a LIAR and DECEIVER

    google
    “Mormonism Disproved in less than 3 minutes! youtube” Really sad the cultists just won’t open their eyes…..

  • jordonn12

    “ ‘Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & are quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; comeing [sic] generally, near a thousand years.’ This is the description of them as given by Joseph the Seer, and he could ‘See’ whatever he asked the Father in the name of Jesus to see.”

    – Prophet Joseph Smith, Jr., in Journal of O.B. Huntington, Book 14, p. 166

    “Who can tell us of the inhabitants of this little planet that shines of an evening, called the moon?… When you inquire about the inhabitants of that sphere you find that the most learned are as ignorant in regard to them as the ignorant of their fellows. So it is in regard to the inhabitants of the sun. Do you think it is inhabited? I rather think it is. Do you think there is any life there? No question of it; it was not made in vain.”

    – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

    “In my Patriarchal blessing, given by the father of Joseph the Prophet, in Kirtland, 1837, I was told that I should preach the gospel before I was 21 years of age; that I should preach the gospel to the inhabitants upon the islands of the sea, and – to the inhabitants of the moon, even the planet you can now behold with your eyes.”

    – O.B. Huntington, The Young Women’s Journal, v. 3, pp. 263-264 (1892)

    “Now what about the Prophet Joseph Smith? I don’t know whether he said men live on the moon or not. But whether he did or not troubles me not in the least. A prophet is wonderful because he sometimes speaks for the Lord. This occurs on certain occasions when the Lord wills it.”

    – Dr. Henry Eyring, The Faith of a Scientist

    “If [the sun] was made to give light to those who dwell upon it, and to other planets; and so will this earth when it is celestialized. Every planet in the first rude, organic state receives not the glory of God upon it, but is opaque; but when celstialized, every planet that God brings into existence is a body of light, but not till then.”

    – Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, v. 13, p. 271

    “As far back as 1837, I know he [Smith] said the moon was inhabited by men and women the same as this earth, and that they lived to a greater age than we do – that they live generally to near the age of 1000 years. He described the men as averaging near six feet in height, and dressing quite uniformly in something near the Quaker style.”

    – O.B. Huntington, “The Inhabitants of the Moon,” The Young Woman’s Journal, 1892, v. 3, pp. 263-164

  • jordonn12

    21 Amazing facts about Mormon teaching: This is WHY Mormonism is a CULT—-these facts are the complete OPPOSITE to REAL BIBLICAL Christianity … Mormons are NOT Christian not even close…they are deceived and will never give you a straight answer

    1. Mormon’s teach that they can become gods and goddesses.

    2. Mormon goddesses will spend eternity in full submission to their god-husband.

    3. Mormon’s teach that women will give birth “forever and ever” to spirit-babies.

    4. Mormon’s teach men can have multiple wives in heaven—eternalpolygamy. They intend to have many wives in heaven, carrying on multiple sex relations throughout eternity, until they have enough children to populate their own earth, so they can be “Heavenly Father” over their own planet!

    5. Heavenly Father is an exalted man who lives with his goddess wife,Heavenly Mother, on a planet near the great star Kolob.

    6. American Indians are descendants of the wicked Lamanites, who were Israelites that God cursed with dark skin.

    7. God the Father had sex with Mary to conceive Jesus. They say Virgin Mary really wasn’t a virgin at all but had sex relations with their heavenly father to produce the Mormon version of Jesus Christ

    8. Mormon’s teach that there is only salvation through the Mormons and all other Christian churches are wrong and Mormons also do baptisms for their dead.

    9. Mormons teach that they need 4 secret handshakes to get into the Celestial heaven.

    10. Joseph Smith revealed that the actual Garden of Eden is in Jackson County, Missouri.

    11. Joseph Smith says that he saw God and Jesus both, when they appeared to him.

    12. Mormons believe that Lucifer and Jesus are brothers.

    13. Mormons believe the angel Gabriel came down to earth and became Noah in the days of the flood.

    14. Mormons consider the Bible to be untrustworthy and full of errors.

    15. Mormons believe the Archangel Michael came down to earth with several of his celestial wives, and became Adam in the garden of Eden.

    16. The Mormon founder and their Prophet Joseph Smith prophesied falsely many times. For example, he foretold the second coming of Christ for 1891. The Bible teaches that one false prophecy puts the prophet under death sentence. (Deuteronomy 18:20-22).

    17. Mormons doctrine taught and believed that before 1978 they considered the Negro race inferior, and even one drop of Negro blood prevented a person from entering their priesthood. Now they will allow men of African decent to be priests but the fact that they once taught this proves they’re a False Religion.

    18. Mormons have books other than the Bible that they call scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants. All these and even their official “Mormon Doctrine” statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is also contradicted by these books.

    19. Mormons believe Jesus had at least three wives and children while he was on this earth.

    20. Joesph Smith taught that there were inhabitants on the moon, and Brigham Young taught there were inhabitants on the sun as well! The fact that these two men once taught this proves they were not real Prophets of God. They were false prophets and this religion is leading many souls to Hell still today.

    21. Mormons also teach that there is no salvation without Joseph Smith. They teach that Joseph Smith holds the keys to the Kingdom of God. They teach that Jesus’ death on the cross only partially saves the believer. They also teach that people will stand before God, Jesus and Joseph Smith on Judgement Day.

    Listen to a former Mormon Lady that goes to Hell and was warned by Jesus to leave the Mormon religion or she will end up in Hell forever. Click Here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwFruS4rpdI

    People, the Mormon religion is truly a cult.

    • Savanna

      Huh boy, how many anti-websites did you get this from? Let me sum up as best as I can, but if you really have so many questions, you really should just read the book for yourself.

      1. We do teach not that you can become gods and goddesses, but that if you are faithful to the commandments, you can “become like him.” Eventually we may get to that point, but not in this life.

      2. We believe that families can be sealed together forever as a family. Husband and wife can be bound together in the temple as equal partners, neither of them have control over the other, they work as equal partners.

      3. We believe that in the Millenium, or the time that the world will be ruled by Christ. And those mothers whose children died young will have the opportunity to raise them. This was revelation given in the Doctrine and Covenants when many children died only a few days old. Can you imagine the comfort this gave to Mothers?

      4. Okay, wow, you have a lot of ideas in there that don’t necessarily coincide with one another, and there is little actual doctrine on it, as this is FAR in the future. But you’re best bet is to look in Doctrine and Covenants, you can search subjects on LDS.org, but there’s not much there.

      5. Haha, I get this one. If you are referring to the Hymn “If You Could Hie to Kolob” it was written when Kolob was the farthest thing we knew of in the Galaxy at the time, it’s not saying that Heaven is near Kolob, he was just naming it as an example of how far away it may seem.

      6. We do believe that the Native Americans are descendants of those we see in The Book of Mormon, but the Lamanites were only wicked during certain times in the scriptures, and in several cases, they were actually more righteous than the Nephites, such as the Anti-Lehi-Nephites, or Samuel the Lamanite, a prophet that testified of Jesus in the Book of Helaman. As for the curse, which can be found in 2 Nephi, the actual words are “they were cursed like unto Cain,” it was not the dark skin was a label of evil, it was simply a symbol that they have been cursed like Cain in the Bible.

      7. This is actually going into more generally Christian doctrine than LDS, as we never call her the Virgin Mary. But I think why she is called a virgin is that she bore Christ without have sex.

      8. Okay, two big topics. Mormons definitely aren’t the only ones that can receive Salvation, everyone can. We do baptisms for the dead (which is not nearly as creepy as it sounds) Baptisms, confirmations, and sealings, which are done in the temple, allow those we do them for to have the choice to receive the highest glory in Heaven, but they DO get there.

      More on this here: http://www.mormon.org/beliefs/plan-of-salvation

      9. The four “secret handshakes” and I think it’s referring to the Baptisms, sealings, and confirmations I mentioned. (Don’t know what the 4th is) and the Celestial Kingdom is the highest degree of Heaven.

      10. A little out of context, but Jackson County is where Joseph Smith declared Zion to be. Look it up in Doctrine and Covenants to see it in full.

      11. That would be referring to the First Vision seen in Joseph Smith History, and if the fact that they were separate beings is what you take to be strange, how can God say at Christ’s baptism, “This is my beloved son, in whom I am well pleased?”

      12. We are all brothers and sisters, Christ being our eldest brother, and Lucifer also one of our brothers. Isn’t this is Genesis? We also have it in Moses in the Pearl of Great Price.

      13. Many of the prophets in the Bible have different names as Angels, (You can see that in D&C 128) Like Noah is Gabriel and Adam is Micheal.

      14. Little over exaggerated, we still read A LOT from the Bible, the actual statement is one of Articles of Faith: “We believe the Bible to be the word of God, as far as it has been translated correctly…” but Joseph Smith cleared some of that up when he wrote the “Joseph Smith Translation,” where he redeemed some of the Bible text by the power of God to correct any verses that were eliminated or meanings that were lost in translation you can take a look at.

      15. Micheal is another Name for Adam, D&C 128, never heard the part on Celestial wives though.

      16. Joseph Smith never prophesied an exact date, in fact, he stated that not even the Angels in Heaven know the date, so how could he?

      17. It’s true we didn’t give Black men the right to the Priesthood until the 70s but even then racial tendencies was going on and a lot of people in and out of the church were AGAINST giving them the priesthood. (Note this is only a few years after Martin Luther King) and now people are saying we should have given it to them earlier. Logic? http://www.mormon.org/faq/topic/priesthood/question/mormon-members

      18.These testaments are far from contradicting the Bible, for a few reasons. a) It’s ANOTHER Testament In Jesus Christ (as it says under the title on most Book of Mormons.) And on average, the Book of Mormon mentions Christ about every 1.5 verses, so I would say that statement was accurate.
      b) There are several instances in all the Books where the Lord teaches almost word for word, what you hear in the Bible, such as “other sheep I have, which are not of this fold.” (talking about the saints in the Americas) and what he said to Peter “what shall be bound on Earth shall be bound in Heaven,” is said several times.
      c.) You can even see in 2 Nephi where Nephi and his younger brother Jacob talk about the words of the prophets they have in brass plates, (aka the Bible up to that point) and even quote several chapters of Isaiah.

      19. Not even remotely true, where did you hear that??? 😛

      20. The sun, moon, and stars are symbols for the different levels or “glories” of Heaven, (also mentioned in Corinthians “there are also Celestial bodies and bodies terrestrial… ” See the link on the Plan of Salvation, the church study books “Preach my Gospel” (a manual for the LDS missionaries) and “True to the Faith,” are also good spots to look into it.)

      21.Miswording, it’s not Joseph Smith they are referring to, it’s the work that he did to bring many of the priesthood keys and the authority of the gospel back on the Earth. Many people helped with this, he was simply chosen by God to lead it and the first modern day prophet.

      Thank you for your questions Jordonn12, I hope this clears a bit of it up. You may want to look into some of the Church scriptures, specifically the Doctrine and Covenants since many of your questions come from that. Feel free to bounce any other question off me, or check out some of the guys working on answering questions on Mormon.org, they can probably answer it better than I can, that’s what they’re there for.:D

  • jordonn12

    Mormons are the complete opposite to Christian…ie they are NOT Christian in any way if you examine their beliefs.. Listed in their first “Articles of Faith,” the claim is: “We believe in God the eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost,” this is not the whole truth.

    What they do NOT say is that their belief is these are THREE SEPARATE gods. Christians believe in ONE God, in three persons.

    Mormons belief in many many many many gods……..Christian belief there is ONLY ONE God…….

  • JS353535

    Mormonism is a cult, it’s so crystal clear that if you can’t see it you’re probably part of a cult yourself.

  • JS353535

    22. Pervasive racism

    The core story of the Book of Mormon is racist. It’s about a family
    in which two of the sons turned bad. God therefore cursed them with a
    dark skin. Dark skin, according to the Book of Mormon is a curse from
    God. There is no way Mormons can deny this fact. And the only way they
    can distance themselves from it is to denounce the Book of Mormon. But
    how do they do that when for decades they’ve claimed it’s “the keystone
    of our religion,” and “the most perfect book”? Some more thoughts to
    ponder: The following quote: Spencer W. Kimball, General Conference
    Report 1960, Improvement ERA, December 1960, pages 922-923

    “I saw a striking contrast in the progress of the Indian
    people today… The day of the Lamanites is nigh. For years they have been
    growing delightsome, and they are now becoming white and delightsome,
    as they were promised. In this picture of twenty Lamanite missionaries,
    fifteen of the twenty were as light as Anglos, five were darker but
    equally delightsome. The children in the home placement program in Utah
    are often lighter than their brothers and sisters in the hogans on the
    reservation.”

    Why is whiter skin color associated with righteousness? Isn’t that racism? A few more quotes from church leaders:

    “Now WE ARE GENEROUS WITH THE NEGRO. WE ARE WILLING that
    the Negro have the highest kind of education. I WOULD BE WILLING to LET
    every Negro DRIVE A CADILLAC IF THEY COULD AFFORD IT. I WOULD BE WILLING
    that they have all the advantages they can get out of life in the
    world. BUT LET THEM ENJOY THESE THINGS AMONG THEMSELVES.” LDS Apostle
    Mark E. Petersen, “Race Problems – As They Affect The Church,” Address
    delivered at Brigham Young University, August 27, 1954, as quoted in
    Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s book entitled, “The Changing World of
    Mormonism,” p. 307, emphasis added.

    “Those who were LESS VALIANT IN PRE-EXISTENCE and who
    thereby had certain spiritual restrictions imposed upon them during
    mortality are known to us as the NEGROES.” LDS Apostle Bruce R.
    McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

    “THE NEGROES ARE NOT EQUAL WITH OTHER RACES where the
    receipt of certain spiritual blessings are concerned, …but this
    inequality is not of man’s origin. IT IS THE LORD’S DOING, is based on
    his eternal laws of justice, and grows out of the LACK OF SPIRITUAL
    VALIANCE OF THOSE CONCERNED IN THEIR FIRST ESTATE [the Mormon
    pre-existence].” LDS Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, p. 527 –
    528, 1966 edition, emphasis added.

    “We’ve always counseled in the Church for our Mexican
    members to marry Mexicans, our Japanese members to marry Japanese, our
    Caucasians to marry Caucasians, our Polynesian members to marry
    Polynesians. The counsel has been wise. You may say again, “Well, I know
    of exceptions.” I do, too, and they’ve been very successful marriages. I
    know some of them. You might even say, “I can show you local Church
    leaders or perhaps even general leaders who have married out of their
    race.” I say, “Yes–exceptions.” Then I would remind you of that Relief
    Society woman’s near-scriptural statement, “We’d like to follow the rule
    first, and then we’ll take care of the exceptions.” LDS Apostle Boyd K.
    Packer, from the talk “Follow the Rule” given at Brigham Young
    University, 1/14/77.

    “I will remark with regard to slavery, inasmuch as we believe in the
    Bible, inasmuch as we believe in the ordinances of God, in the
    priesthood and order and decrees of God, we must believe in slavery.
    This colored race have been subjected to severe curses, which they have
    in their families and their classes and in their various capacities
    brought upon themselves…

    “I am a firm believer in slavery…Those servants want to come here
    with their masters…and they commence to whisper round their views upon
    the subject, saying ‘Do you think it’s right? I am afraid it is not
    right’. I know it is right, and there should be a law made to have the
    slaves serve their master, because they are not capable of ruling
    themselves…I am firm in the belief that they ought to dwell in
    servitude…

    “When a master has a negro, and uses him well, he is much better off
    than when he is free. As for masters knocking them down and whipping
    them and breaking the limbs of their servants, I have as little opinion
    of that as any person can have, but good wholesome servitude, I know
    there is nothing better than that.”

    (Speech by Brigham Young delivered in joint session of the
    legislature, Friday, Jan. 23rd, 1852, recorded by Geo. D. Watt, Brigham
    Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church).

    “If there never was a prophet or apostle of Jesus Christ spoke it
    before, I tell you, this people that are commonly called negroes are the
    children of old Cain. I know they are.”

    “Again to the subject before us: as to the negro men bearing rule,
    not one of the children of old Cain have one particle of right to bear
    rule in government affairs from first to last. They have no business
    there. This privilege was taken from them by their own transgressions,
    and I cannot help it.

    “I am as much opposed to the principle of slavery as any man in the
    present acceptation or usage of the term – it is abused. I am opposed to
    abusing that which God has decreed, to take a blessing, and make a
    curse of it. It is a great blessing to the seed of Adam to have the seed
    of Cain for servants…”

    “Therefore, I will not consent for one moment to have an African
    dictate (to) me or my brethren with regard to church or state
    government…No, it is not right. But say some, is there anything of this
    kind in the constitution the United States has given us? If you will
    allow me the privilege of telling it right out, it is none of their
    damned business what we do or say here. What we do, it is for them to
    sanction, and then for us to say what we like about it. It is written
    right in the constitution ‘that every free white male inhabitant above
    the age of 21 years’, and etc…I have given you the true principle and
    doctrine.

    “What the Gentiles are doing, we are consenting to do [he’s referring
    to the “evil” abolitionist effort going on in the USA at the time].
    What we are trying to do today is to make the Negro equal with us in all
    our privileges. My voice shall be against it all the day long. I shall
    not consent for one moment.”

    (Speech in joint session, Feb. 5, 1852, Brigham Young Papers, Historical Dept. of the Church)

    Sorry, but the above quotes indicate a pervasive racism. I can’t in
    good conscience be associated with an organization that holds such
    beliefs, or refuses to apologize for them.

    • Doug Ward

      Your right to be honest I didn’t read all of them but half, you made your point. And again your right. I for one, believed some of these things, As did many in other religions at the time and a few today. It was not just in church that these things were taught but in the culture, on TV, on the Radio and every old person that made a comment to us young people.

      So lets look at some other problems. Joseph Smith many wives of which some seemed to be already married, and the youngest 14. Pearl of Great price question of its origin? Now some are claiming we have the book of mormon land figured wrong, it’s not in South america. Oh and Women and the Priesthood lets through that in, shall we?

      I can dismiss you by saying so what? It is still true. I don’t think you or anyone deserve that, unless in course your in my face and looking for a fight.

      I don’t have an answer to explain all of it. So why do I still believe or at least associate? Because of all the Good I also see. The billions in aid given over the years. The millions who have changed their lives because of the teaching they embrace. The hope that so many find encouraging and helpful. I have not found an organization equal to the Church, even with it’s faults.

      My last thought. The church is looked after by ordinary messed up people. Elder
      Boyd K. Packer as more than once comment on the fact that they the leaders don’t deserve any special recognition they did nothing to earn but were picked, or chosen. They are normal like you and me. I believe they receive spiritual insight that I don’t but only when needed. The rest of the time God lets them fumble around like you and me.

      I believe that most of the men and women leading the church are trying their best, to do what they understand is right. If you can show me an organization that can beat that claim then we can have a very interesting discussion.

    • Savanna

      You bring up some good points that are a bit confusing, here’s a bit of what I’ve found.

      The part in the book of mormon about the dark skin has nothing to do with racism or the like, if you read into specifics it say that the Lamanites where cursed “like unto Cain,” who where cursed in the same way thousands of years before. It wasn’t that it was saying it was bad to have dark skin, it was just symbolism that they had fallen like Cain had. And if you look a couple of years farther into the Book of Mormon, you would see that at a few points the Lamanites were actually more righteous than the Nephites, their white skin brethren, for example, the Anti-Nephi-Lehi, or during the time of Samuel the Lamanite.

      It’s true that black men were not allowed the priesthood until the 70s, but even though that sounds bad now, it was actually not very favored at the time, think about it, it was only a few years after Martin Luther King, and it was still not common in the US to treat black equally, so really the church ahead of its time in this. But if you’re still confused, the church has released a specific statement concerning blacks and the priesthood.

      http://www.mormon.org/faq/mormon-members

  • luckycharms

    im mormon and sorry to say i really dis like it.

  • jordonn12

    I challenge any thinking Mormon to read this carefully and respond
    The Fatal Flaw in the Mormon Church’s Teaching …
    bible-truth.org/differentgod.htm

    • Doug Ward

      I am sorry Jordonn12 the premise on this link is refuted by more than mormons but many christian scholars. The fact that you think God uses language as you use it is laughable at best. God uses language to describe to our infantile minds the concepts of eternity and your going to get hung up on semantics?

      So answer these questions. Thou shall not kill. God command the genocide of men women and children. (children of Israel taking the land) Can he still be God when he broke his own commandment? How can you worship a God that can change his mind? How is he the same yesterday today and for ever? No kill now kill does that sound like the same?

      • jordonn12

        Hello Doug…don’t be sorry…you are entitled to your opinion.

        No I think it is the other way around …it seems you think God uses language as you. Don’t put God in a human box. God is definitely outside the human box….his ways was beyond our ways…you are thinking of God in human concepts. Perhaps you are mormon…

        God is sovereign over all of life and can take it whenever He sees fit. God and God alone can give life, and God alone has the right to take it whenever He so chooses. In fact, He ultimately takes every person’s life at death. It is not our life to begin with but God’s. While it is wrong for us to take a life, except in instances of capital punishment, war, and self-defense, this does not mean that it is wrong for God to do so. We intuitively recognize this when we accuse some person or authority who takes human life as “playing God.” God is under no obligation to extend anyone’s life for even another day. How and when we die is completely up to Him.

        By the way the Cannanites were a wicked perverted people …God gave them 400 years to repent…

  • jordonn12

    This is an awesome site, get coverage of how JS plagerized huge sections of the book of Mormon….great testamonies from Mormons that are fed up. Fantastic explanation of the book of Abraham. With all the evidence it is bewildering how any Mormon can remain in that Church. Google
    Mormonism Disproved
    http://www.mormonismdisproved.org/

    • Savanna

      I hate to break this to you jordonn but mormons have a pretty good standing about the Book of Mormon that can’t be disproved. Have you read it? No farmer boy could have made that stuff up.

      If you want to hear the Church’s response to that sort of thing look here. A good debater knows to look at both sides of the situation.

      http://www.mormon.org/

  • Gabby Mohun

    To everyone saying bad things about Mormons, first read the Book of Mormon. Then judge them.

  • Brayden Donkoh

    What is your proof that we mormans are a cult

  • Easton

    I am a member of this church and I don’t care what you think about us! You don’t know us, you talk about our church as if you have been apart of it and have learned about it. Well you all are a little confused. Joseph Smith was an incredible man that lived the commandments of God. Yes he did practice polygamy, but so did Abraham, David, and most of the prophets in the Bible. I’m not standing up for polygamy (because anyone that practices that now is excommunicated from the church and is committing a sin) but i am standing up for Joseph. And about people thinking that there are not prophets on the Earth today look up Amos 3:7 in the bible. It talks about how God doesn’t reveal anything unless it is to his prophets. When Jesus died on the cross and died for us so that we might be able to repent and come unto him, all the apostles died with him over time. The church fell apart, and with it the keys to governing his church. I can testify to anyone who is reading this that Jesus christ did die for us and he did atone for our sins. Joseph Smith was a prophet of our Heavenly Father and restored the keys to his church. He also died for this church, now if you think this is a cult then keep on thinking it, but Joseph Smith being faced with death testified that this was true, he went trough so much persecution and hardships only to be killed for what he believed. Our Heavenly Father loves everyone and will help us if we come unto him in prayer. And if you don’t think we worship Christ and are christians then you are very mistaken. Our official name is The Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints! it is on all of our temples! Now wouldn’t you think that if we weren’t christians then we would stop using his name so much? If you really think it is your job to bust on other people’s religion then go ahead and do it, but I PROMISE you that if you open up yourself to the Holy Ghost and read the Book of Mormon then your life will be happier, healthier, and a whole lot better.

  • chloe

    Mormons suck ass

  • Christian Hans

    Ah yes, tell me more about how YOU know more about MY religion, just let it go. Keep in mind about a little thing called the Motmon Extermination Act put in place by Gov. Boggs of Missouri which allowed anyone in Missouri to kill a Mormon on sight legally. So don’t act like a saint and be oblivious about this.

  • Dave

    The mormons leaders have a history of being decietful when circumstances seem to have required it. One example was John Taylor who later became the third prophet, denying the church practiced plural marriage while he was serving a mission overseas durring the early 1850s. Rumor had it that the church was practicing polygamy which they were. The church didn’t want the world to know for the obvious reason that it would hamper missionary work. Missionaries were instructed to not reveal the fact and following the example of Joseph Smith, John Taylor and all other missionaries denied that there was any such thing practiced by the church. Taylor had at the time at least half a dozen back in Utah.

    Also the fact that Joseph Smith the founder who I believe was a consumate lier, married other mens wives, some of them while husbands were away on missions. Some of these women were counseled not to reveal the fact to their husbands. Again, a history of deciet!!! A prominent church historian and many members have been excommunicated for telling others about these “church secrets”. I was not excommunicated, I excommunicated the church 😉

  • Janine Baculik

    This is America and religious freedom for ALL Before anyone can say this is a cult obtain The Book of MORMON PRAY before you read it Ask Our Heavenly Father if it is true,then read That’s what I did 6yr ago You’ll get your answer Oh YES I am a Mormon now

  • pukus

    I don’t hate Mormons. Most are fine people. However, I wish the Mormon leaders who craft Utah laws would give us non-Mormons a break — they tax and regulate us pretty severely for things they don’t partake in (such as alcohol). As you can expect, this contributes significantly to the “us versus them” mentality in Utah. The thinking goes “You tax me for something you disapprove of — and the tax doesn’t apply to yourselves?” You can see why it would stir some resentment.

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