The Deacon's Bench

The Deacon's Bench


Two kinds of Catholics: “Purpose-Driven” vs. “Retro”

posted by jmcgee

Over at the Washington Post’s “On Faith” blog, Anthony Stevens-Arroyo has this take on two branches of Catholicism:

I avoid writing about “liberal” and “conservative” Catholics. These terms are too easily politicized as Democrats v. Republicans. Moreover, the meanings of these terms have varied so much in the course of history that yesterday’s liberals are often today’s conservatives and vice-versa. Let me introduce here the label “Purpose Driven Catholic” with due thanks to Pastor Rick Warren.

The Purpose Driven Catholic differs from the Retro Catholic because the guiding principle seeks an immediate impact of the faith on society. While the Retro Catholic emphasizes tradition as a guide and seeks to remedy conflict by a return to practices that previously insured normalcy, the Purpose Driven Catholic is more willing to engage the contemporary and blaze new paths through the maze of social issues in a pluralistic world.

Retro and Purpose Driven Catholics do not differ on doctrine and one is not less Catholic than the other. They are more like the opposites of Felix and Oscar in the Odd Couple than good-guys v. bad-guys in a mobster movie. Think of Retro and Purpose Driven as the Ying and Yang of Catholic America. The Church needs both, even if there is a “creative tension” between them.

Read the rest.



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Klaire

posted September 14, 2010 at 9:42 am


Anthony Stevens-Arroyo is the epitome of what’s wrong with “American Catholics.” Sadly, it’s his left-wing hack voice that sets the “catholic tone” in the main stream media (MSM).
Stevens-Arroys is the epitome of moral relativism, masterfully written, always convincing to the “uncatechised”, which in this day and age, is for the most part, the majority of 60 million American Catholics. I have one word of caution for all who buy him to him, taken from none other than Father John Caropi, “the devil’s favorite color is grey!”
Let’s start with his abortion argument. Of course a half of loaf is better than none, but not when the “other half” is forfeited. Gee, I’m surprised someone as ‘catholic educated’ as Arryo didn’t figure out the real answer. I challenge him to write an article on the REAL solution, the REAL PRESENCE. There is only one answer to abortion, and that is the Eucharist. Abortion is so evil that no “natural means”, even a reversal of Roe v Wade, will ever stop it. There is only one thing greater than the power of the evil of abortion, and “that one” is a person, Jesus Christ. If Catholics in America started living again as “Eucharistic Catholics”, especially in prayer against abortion, I guarantee you abortion would simply not exist. We have the means, through the Real Presence of Jesus, to end abortion in America. The problem is, not enough want to, at least not badly enough.
On to gay marriage, please. Maybe Stevens-Arroyo can explain how “upholding the value of marriage (instituted by Christ), is possible in a sinful homosexual relationship? So much for that blasphemous idea.
Lastly, he wrongly, but I doubt shamefully, implies that George Weigle is a “cafeteria catholic.” Nothing could be more from the truth. I know what he is referring to, and what Weigle was saying was that Pope Benedict made some compromise, for the sake of charity, with some inclusions into the encyclical, but NOT at the expense of watering down the truth.
Bottom line, forget conservative vs. liberal, retro vs. purpose driven. The only purpose here is “devil deception.” There is no “grey zone” in Catholicism, period. This is a very dangerous article, as most will never see its perils, only be reconfirmed in their moral relativism.



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Chris B

posted September 14, 2010 at 10:22 am


If I were to adopt Mr. Stevens-Arroyo’s classifications, it’s more then a little funny to note that, at least in my experience, his hip and groovy “Purpose-driven Catholics” are all at least in their late 50′s, mostly in their late 60′s, while the stodgy, grim “retros” are mostly in their 20s and 30s.
Cardinal George commented several years ago that progressive Catholicism was a “intellectually exhausted project”. It’s rapidly becoming a demographically exhausted project as well. But, good luck singing that new Church into being, Tony !



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pup137

posted September 14, 2010 at 10:56 am


1 dimensional models of multi-dimensional universes don’t even rise to flat. they are just somebody’s line.
I can go to a KofC meeting and meet people with a greater diversity than Mr S-A posits.
A better discussion would start with the fact that words we use every day have no meaning because they are used with so many meanings. Start the game with the ones listed above — conservative, liberal, Republican, Democrat. And when you have your sea-legs, go to Christian, Jewish, Muslim, …
Once there was a Catholic church in the South that followed the southern custom of introducing visitors at the beginning of Mass. One person rose and said they were from Auburn. The priest, not wise to the ways of the South, said “Oh, Alabama.” “No” was the reply, “Auburn.” The priest not being a football fan and not catching on, continued, “Yes, in Alabama.” “No” was the emphatic reply at a louder tone, “Auburn.”



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Aquamarine

posted September 14, 2010 at 11:10 am


The “stogy, grim retros” I know are of all ages, come from all walks of life, and certainly engage in their own form of cafeteria Catholicism. The one thing they all share is a tendancy towards idolatry. They’re also icy, icy cold and selfish to the core, and they immediately presume all kinds of ugly things about people who don’t worship the ground they walk on.



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Your Name

posted September 14, 2010 at 12:41 pm


It seems to me that the Catholic faith once delivered to the saints was quite purpose-driven on its own merits, and really doesn’t need the help of those willing to “blaze new paths” to address social issues.



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Rudy

posted September 14, 2010 at 12:46 pm


Purpose Driven: driven by the purpose of destroying the Catholic faith and mold it to the image of the present world.



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Aquamarine

posted September 14, 2010 at 12:55 pm


YourName/Rudy — the present world is dealing with social issues the saints of several centuries ago didn’t have to deal with.
And for The Eucharist being the answer to abortion and everything else, well, we’ve had the Eucharist for over 2000 years now. Maybe it’s time to start being pro-active with your faith instead of sitting home listening to Father Corapi tapes (who died and made him God?) and pointing your finger at everyone else. If the Eucharist stops ten minutes after you receive it, who cares?



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Klaire

posted September 14, 2010 at 1:37 pm


Aquamarine how would you possibly know how “pro active” or not I am? FYI, I was very much involved with pro life San Diego, with Bishop Cordelone (he is now in Oakland). We often marched through the streets of San Diego in Eucharistic procession and prayed rosaries in front of abortion clincs. And guess what, abotions decreased dramatically, and “saves” are documented everyday by the “Eucharistic” sidewalk conunselors and the daily communicants who pray for them.
As for Father Corapi, who BTW was ordained by JPII and answers to Rome, was declared the gift of “apostolic teaching” and sent forth to be the modern day Bishop Sheen (although I’m sure there is also plenty of room for Father Baron).
Furthermore, the Eucharistic “doesn’t stop”. That’s like saying Jesus is non existent. To confuse a physical presence with the spititual is ingorance at best.
As for the social issues, culture may change but human nature doesn’t change AM. The other thing that doesn’t change is the deception of satan, in any culture.
Again, your anger and issues are far beyond this topic. To diss the Eucharist and a holy priest like Father Corapi is nothing less than your lack of respect towards Catholicism; validating why you would be such a fan of “political correctness”, and totally insensitive to the victims’ loved ones who find it painful to have a mosque built so close to ground zero.



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Aquamarine

posted September 14, 2010 at 3:03 pm


I’m not dissing the Eucharist, and going to Adoration and marching through the streets holding high the Eucharist is nice and all, but what good does that actually do the girl three states over who is being tossed out on her butt, penniless, homeless and without a place to turn, because she’s pregnant? There is an EQUAL need for Catholics and Christians to provide material support for that girl and her child — and to do it without judgement, without coercion to “give” her baby up, without strings, even without any expectation of gratitude.
Fr. Corapi? Just another guy, and no one the Catholic Church calls on anyone to even pay attention to if they don’t want to. I personally dislike his delivery and his rhetoric. Big news flash — that doesn’t make me a bad Catholic, or a sinner in either God’s eyes or the Church’s eyes. Sorry, but claiming Catholics are required to even bother with Father Corapi is pure idolatry. And no one is called to be the next someone else. Everyone is called to be themselves.
Culture changes the choices people are faced with every day. While human nature remains the same, temptations change in their nature. The early Church saints did not have to deal with the complex society we live in today — nor were they perfect in dealing with the issues of their day, either. There is a need, especially in this day and age, for lay Catholics to live their faith on an active, practical level.
If abortions decrease in an area, that means there are active, practical Catholics taking up where the folks praying the rosaries left off. That has nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with following Christ’s directive to us all. Christ’s directives trump Father Whosit’s or Sister Whatsyername’s.
And believe me, Klaire, I am well aware indeed of the insidiousness of Satan’s nature…Satan will always take the form you’re most attracted to and tell you exactly what you want to hear…



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RomCath

posted September 14, 2010 at 3:33 pm


“Fr. Corapi? Just another guy”
Interesting way for anyone, much less a Catholic,to refer to an ordained priest. Without these “guys” there would no Eucharist. If that’s all people think they are, no wonder so few are entering the seminary these days.



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Chris B

posted September 14, 2010 at 3:41 pm


Aquamarine- Not “dissing” the Eucharist? How big of you.
Christ taught us not to fear what kills the body but cannot kill the soul (Matthew 10, 28). There are many institutions that can and should fight for social justice, and the Catholic Church is among them, but there is only one institution on this earth that can save souls, and that is the Catholic Church.
Do I care about that mythical young woman 3 states away? Absolutely. If I can help provide for her needs, I will. But what WE can give her, what she needs more then money, or food, is the grace that only Christ and his Church can give.
We’re a Church that does charity, not a charity that does “church”.
I may’ve criticized the liberal Catholic style, but judging the state of their souls is far above my paygrade. As judging mine, “icy, icy cold” as you did…that’s above your paygrade too.



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Aquamarine

posted September 14, 2010 at 3:59 pm


Icy, icy cold has nothing to do with the final resting place of your soul. It has to do with your demeanor here on earth. You put it out there first, dude. Own it.
I was directly accused of dissing the Eucharist, which I hadn’t done.
What a pregnant, homeless, impovershed girl needs first and foremost is practical attention to her physical needs. Pray for her, yes, pray for those who put her in the position she’s in, yes, show her the mercy and love of God, yes — but to claim that it’s better to wax eloquant about the Eucharist because that’s more important to her than food, shelter and medical care is completely self-serving and not what Christ asked us, told us, commanded us to do.



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Klaire

posted September 14, 2010 at 8:46 pm


And believe me, Klaire, I am well aware indeed of the insidiousness of Satan’s nature…Satan will always take the form you’re most attracted to and tell you exactly what you want to hear…END QUOTE
Allow me to add to that Aquamarine: “And holy priests like Father Corapi will, like Christ, always preach what many do not want to hear, the Truth.”
AM, did it ever occur to you that the same people who pray at abortion clincs are part of the same group that provides the physical needs for the mother, even AFTER the baby is born? Do you even understand that the FIRST battle is with Satan at the abortion clinic? The first step is to thwart the abortion. I can tell your from experience that most of these women, especially the young girls, are really just crying for help (the boyfriends often bail). AM there is NO way all the money in the world or 10,000 bags of diapers is EVER going to compete with the Real Presence of Christ. Trust me we take care of everyone who needs help, in all ways. No one is turned away, ever. The money or furniture or clothes we need just always becomes available (part of the power of prayer).
From what you write AM, it appears that you put more trust in the “human endeavor” than you do in Christ. I don’t know how anyone can say what you say who believes in the Real Presence in the Eucharist. It’s not a 10 minute fix, it’s ETERNAL.
AquaM you might want to think (if only for your on sake) about the perils of insulting ANY priest; it’s very serious, as priests represent Christ here on earth, and as another blogger mentioned, “no priests, no Eucharist.” You have every right not to like or agree with Father Corapi, but for heaven’s sake, to call yourself a Catholic and then insult the most profound teacher of the Catechism of the Catholic Church is a bit over the top don’t you think, especially the accusation of idolatry of Jesus Christ, which is what all priest represent.
Again, let’s just agree to disagee (without any more attacks on anyone), and leave it at that. I think we both know where each is coming from and it serves no purpose to continue at this point.
Just an FYI, Father Corapi is coming to your backyard (Newark, NJ) Oct 30, his last talk of the year, on spiritual warfare. I know it’s a longshot, but I wish you would go. It’s unlike anything you will have ever experienced, and the only place in America where a Catholic priest (outside of the Pope) can pack a stadium. It’s life changing to be part of an arena full of faithful Catholics, starved for truth, no matter how hard that truth may be to hear, because the truth is, we ALL need to hear it.
Peace AquaMarine :)



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Aquamarine

posted September 15, 2010 at 9:49 am


Yes, I am aware there are those who pray AND provide material care for those in need.
I’ve never met a person who does both who speaks with such disdain of other Catholics as you do, Klaire. Sorry, but this breathless “frcorapisayfrcorapisaysfrcorapifrcorapi” 24/7 is not a good and holy thing. It’s idolatry. And the constant phony-pious, holier-than-thou attitude sucks. So sorry if I don’t believe a word you say — you’re all about youyouyou 24/7 and how you are SO much better than all your fellow Catholics. Except Fr. Corapi, of course.
I don’t put more trust in human endeavor than I do God, and with good reason. But I do have an incredible amount of respect for the Catholics who put up with the Pharisees in the pews and quietly do what they do in spite of the nastiness and snark they receive from folks like ChrisB and you. It’s always open season on Catholics who don’t make a big pious show of themselves, or trick themselves out with all kinds of tickitytackity “stuff”, or breathlessly hang on every word of the latest Catholic idol, but don’t anyone DARE suggest that the narrow minded, ugly hearted Pharisees might be wrong about anything…please. I certainly place more trust in people who actually do something than I do people who just talk about it a lot, or take credit for other people’s work.
Father Corapi is not the most profound teacher of the Catechism. You can think what you want, but to intimate that the Catholic Church has officially raised Father Corapi to the most profound teacher of the Catechism is a) a lie and b) blasphemy and c) heretical.
ALL Christians are supposed to represent Christ. That is their job. Priests are in no way more representative of Christ than any number of lay people I know, and many priests have made a mockery of their vocation by their behavior, as have many lay people.
That Christians are to represent Christ and the Word of God in their daily lives, regardless of the paths those lives take, does NOT mean we worship people. Worshipping ANY human as we are to worship God is exactly what idolatry is. I think you are seriously confused here — dangerously confused, actually.
And Newark, NJ is hardly in the “backyard” of California.



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Klaire

posted September 15, 2010 at 11:07 am


To be honest AM, I didn’t think you were a Catholic. Not sure how or why you would call yourself one when you are so hostile to the Cathechism of the Catholic Faith (in addition to priests and the Eucharist), which is WHAT Father Corapi teaches. He is also the only person to dissect the Cathecism and teach it in it’s fullness, from cover to cover.
If you don’t know the difference being following “teachings” as opposed to “idolization”, than you’re in a darker place than I originally thought, obviously afraid of the “bright light” of the Catechsim.
If you really believe what you said:
You can think what you want, “but to intimate that the Catholic Church has officially raised Father Corapi to the most profound teacher of the Catechism is a) a lie and b) blasphemy and c) heretical,” END QUOTE
you would also have to include the apostles and the pope, since they too have the gift of “apostolic teaching”, “apostolic” being one of the pillers of Catholicism. Perhaps you should consider that with your “Aquamarine” verson of “personal religion” you told us about in the last thread, also incompatible with Catholicism.
I don’t know who you think you are trying to fool with your anti-Catholic hostility, really. I’m not looking for a fight, said all that I need to say.



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Aquamarine

posted September 15, 2010 at 11:25 am


Klaire — I don’t care for labels. Catholic, Christian, Jew, whatever…I’m a baptized Catholic who has every reason to be very wary of the Church and Catholics in general and who is probably more Jewish in my theology than anything else. I figure God knows who I am and what I believe and that’s all that matters.
I am not hostile at all to the CCC. Not one bit. I have some questions and doubts and disagreements, but that doesn’t mean I’m hostile to it.
If you seriously think Father Corapi is the only person ever to teach the Catechism in it’s entirety, section by section, you are very deeply mentally ill or incredibly uninformed and uneducated. I really don’t know what else to say about that.
If he is your preferred teacher of the CCC, fine. He is not God, he is a human being, flawed and lacking the ability to know the full and complete nature of God, just like everyone else in the world. That you think I’m in a dark place because I am not a breathless fangirl of some priest you like speaks to a serious form of idolatry on your part. A deeply, gravely sinful form of idolatry, one that specifically rejects the first commandment, actually.
If you want to think Father Corapi is the most profound teacher of the CCC evah, so be it. But to say I am in a dark place because I don’t think so IS heretical, blasphemous and sinful.
Maybe you should shoot Father Corapi an email asking him if I’m going to hell because I don’t particularly like his rhetoric and delivery. I mean, it’s not like God has a say here — just you and Father Corapi.
Whatever.
The nice thing about placing your trust in God is that the sort of fear-mongering and scare tactics you’re resorting to just don’t work. God trumps it all — here’s another newsflash for ya: God even trumps Father Corapi.
As for me being anti-Catholic, hardly. Again, you’re getting God and Catholicism and your ego and Father Corapi all mixed up in your head.



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plavo

posted September 15, 2010 at 12:15 pm


Well, all I can say is, whenver I listen to Fr Corapi, like a good conservative preacher, he is usually talking about the “sins” “misunderstandings” of the people “out there”…..the massa damnata, and not calling to choir to repentance



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Klaire

posted September 15, 2010 at 1:45 pm


If you want to think Father Corapi is the most profound teacher of the CCC evah, so be it END QUOTE
Well Aquamarine, Father C has been on EWTN GLOBAL, EVERY DAY, teaching the Catechism for probably close to 15 years. The series just keeps repeating and repeating, as there are always new viewers, as well as many who rewatch the series over and over, WORLDWIDE. If you know of anyone else who can top a 10-15 year global audience, I’m all ears. Even the pope (albeit not like he isn’t busy with other necessary things), has never taught the catechism to the extent that Father Corapi has.
You also suggested: Quote: Maybe you should shoot Father Corapi an email asking him if I’m going to hell because I don’t particularly like his rhetoric and delivery END QUOTE
Well, I certainly can’t speak for Father Corapi nor do I plan to email him, but I will share with you one of his favorite lines to his detractors: “I’m not going to hell for ANYBODY, I’ve got a soul to save too.”
While I’m no Father Corapi, I ditto the same sentiment. This all started because as an informed Catholic I felt an obligation to speak out against a very dangerous “moral relativistic” article, which is the subject of this thread. While I try to be as charitable as I can (and yes, I’m aware there is much room for improvement), make no mistake I’m not on this board to win popularity votes.



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Aquamarine

posted September 15, 2010 at 2:19 pm


Klaire. I get it. You like Father Corapi, he’s your go-to guy, he has a popular show on EWTN. FINE!!
And this has exactly what to do with being a good Catholic? All Catholics everywhere are now REQUIRED to share YOUR opinion about some television priest? Where, in his unparalleled exposition of the CCC, is this requirement? You being such a big fan and all, I’m sure you can point the exact section of the CCC in which we, as Catholics, are required to think Father Corapi is the be all and end all on all things Catholic? Go ahead — show me how I’m required to be this guy’s fangirl.
There was nothing but a call to ALL Catholics to see that there is a need for us ALL in the Church in that article — but you don’t want that, Klaire — it’s just no fun for you if God loves someone YOU and your Father Corapi don’t approve of. The Catholic Church just isn’t the exclusive little country club you and your precious Father Corapi want it to be if people who don’t think exactly like you are allowed in.
Anyone who would say what you claim that ejit said to his “detractors” (aka anyone who doesn’t kiss his butt) is a textbook narcissist. There is nothing Christ-like about this man or his rhetoric. Thank you for making that clear.
You luuuuuv yerself some Father Corapi. I can’t stand the guy. So what? So what, Klaire? Show me the Catholic Church’s teaching on how not liking some television personality YOU like makes anyone else a bad Catholic — c’mon, oh-so-informed one — give me the passage, verbatim, from the CCC.
[Aqua ... bring it down a notch. Please. If you continue with this kind of name-calling, you will be deleted. Thank you. Dcn. G.]



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RomCath

posted September 15, 2010 at 2:41 pm


Aqua said: “I don’t care for labels. Catholic, Christian, Jew, whatever…”
Never realized “Catholic” was merely a label. Funny I thought it was an identity and an ontological change brought about through Baptism. Silly me.



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Klaire

posted September 15, 2010 at 3:15 pm


Per your request Aquamarine:
Lack of understanding of what the Catholic Church teaches is grossly harmful to the individual Catholic and to society in general. It is for this reason that I have always tried to promote and teach the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is a sure norm for teaching the faith, as Pope John Paul II asserted in promulgating the Catechism. “Guarding the Deposit of Faith is the mission which the Lord entrusted to His Church,” are the first words of the Apostolic Constitution “Fidei Depositum.” These are the words the Holy Father used to introduce us to the Catechism. Father Corapi
http://www.ccccharities.org/index.php/news/50-father-corapi-soltstd
Here are some excellent references from the Catechism (start with #84, more at the link)
Note this key line: The faith, in its integrity, has been entrusted to the Church by Christ through the ministry of the Apostles (Father Corapi is a Vatican declared “Apostolic Teacher.”)
4. The entire content of our faith, what Saint Paul in his First and Second Letters to Timothy calls the deposit of faith, is found in Sacred Scripture and Tradition (1Timothy 6:20; and 2Timothy 1:12-14). The faith, in its integrity, has been entrusted to the Church by Christ through the ministry of the Apostles. The deposit of faith is the teaching of the Apostles and the living of that teaching in the life of prayer and the sacramental life, and the witness of the teaching in the moral life. The foundation is the sound doctrine which finds its highest expression in the Sacraments, above all the Holy Eucharist, and which is witnessed in the holiness of life of the believer (cf. Catechism of the Catholic Church (hereafter CCC), n. 84
More at the link: http://www.mariancatechist.com/burke/obedience_responsibility.html



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Aquamarine

posted September 15, 2010 at 3:25 pm


And where, exactly, in there, does it say, as I asked, that I am REQUIRED to listen to Father Corapi specifically?
Where does the CCC mention Father Corapi by name?
That’s what I asked for — the passage in the CCC that REQUIRES me to listen to Father Corapi specifically. Where is it located in the CCC?



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Klaire

posted September 17, 2010 at 6:40 am


Aquamarine I’ve been too busy to get back to this thread, sorry.
I honestly don’t understand why my initially quoting one line from Father Corapi put you into such hysterics. Now that you demand that I show you “where in the CCC he is “personally given this authority”, simply is over the top, especially since I never made any mention that anyone HAS to listen or HAS to obey “Father Corapi.” That said, he certainly represents the Magesterium of the Catholic Church, given authority by Jesus Himself when he gave the keys to Peter. That’s basic Catholicism Aquamarine, and has nothing to do with me or Father Corapi.
Furthermore, Catholicism isn’t an imposing religion. It’s actually against Canon Law to impose the Catholic Faith on anyone. I wasn’t imposing anything, just stating what the church teaches, trying to at least neutralize the effects of a very dangerous “new teaching” by a Washington Post Columnist who never seems to miss a chance to water down the faith.
I get it that you liked what Stevens-Arroyo had to say. So be it, that’s your rightful choice, as it’s also my rightful choice to speak out to why it’s incompatible with Catholicism.
If I were to give you any advice, it would be to ask yourself why you are so afraid of the Catechism of the Catholic Faith, and especially to a holy priest who has exhausted himself in teaching it. You admit that you disagree with some of it, have doubts and questions. That’s all the more reason to try to understand it, not attack it. There was a time in my life when I, like many, had nothing but disgust against the CCC, but eventually, by God’s grace, came to understand and love it.
Lastly, I think it was very interesting that you asked if Father Corapi would tell you that you would be sent to hell. For starters, the only people in hell (if there are any, as the church as never confirmed even one soul in hell, outside of the approved apparition of Fatima which no Catholic is required to believe) are the ones who send themselves there. Hell is nothing more than the refusal of God’s light and love, by our choice. To some extent, all of us who sin or refuse the teachings of the Church put ourselves there right now, in an “earthly hell.” It’s long been my opinion as to why there is so much anger right now in our country; many of us have lost our way, lost the “light”, consequently, it’s a very painful and restless place to be.
If you think about it, the last place someone who hated the Cathechism or Catholicism would want to be would be heaven; just sayin. It wouldn’t make much sense that a loving God of free will would subject anyone to a life of eternity in a light that repulsed them.
Bottom line Aquamarine, the choice is totally yours, to take or to leave all the chruch teaches, by any or all of the authority to teach it.



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Aquamarine

posted September 17, 2010 at 10:00 am


Klaire, I am not afraid of the CCC. Please.
If you toggle up and read your own words, you were the one claiming listening to Fr. Corapi specifically was a mandatory and necessary component of Catholicism.
As for being afraid of Fr. Corapi or the Fr. Corapis of the world? That’s just laughable, and about the worst sort of passive aggressive technique you’ve ever engaged in. I dislike the man’s tone, rhetoric, delivery, attitude, etc. That’s not fear. That’s personal taste. Which would go back to your completely disingenuous point about the Church not forcing Catholicism on anyone.
At this point, I’m more than happy to wait for God and work out with Him my differences with the Church, the CCC, with organized religion in general, etc. God I trust completely. People and institutions, not so much.
The hell question was hyperbole and sarcasm, Klaire, to get you to see that Fr. Corapi is just a man — you may like his program, others not, but at the end of the day he does not wield a shred of power over any other human being’s soul, so to put him on a pedestal and idolize him is wrong, unhelpful and quite possibly sinful.
And, yes, I am well aware that God gave us all free will and expects us to use it. Which is why I don’t blindly, mindlessly follow individuals, or react well to threats, no matter how subtle, or suffer fools gladly.



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Klaire

posted September 17, 2010 at 11:16 am


The only thing “mandatory” for Catholics AM is obedience to the faith, “non cafeteria style.” As I said, the choice is yours and anyone elses to take or leave.
Why people who continue to call themselves Catholics while dancing around just about every dogma the church teaches is an enigma when 4000 Protestant (protest) denominations exist. I suspect it’s because they know in their heart of hearts what the CC teaches is true, but believing it would be too much of an alternation to their personal lifestyles.
To not recognize the power of all ordained priests, is more than troubling.
As for hell, it’s nothing to trivalize. Spending one minute outside of the love of God would be more than most of us could even comprehend let alone endure for an eternity.



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Aquamarine

posted September 17, 2010 at 11:51 am


Well, it wasn’t like I asked to be baptized Catholic, lol! That baptized-Catholic-for-life deal is the Church’s — seems to suit their purposes just fine to continue to include in their statistics all these Catholics they insisted had to be baptized at birth even when they no longer bother much with Catholicism. Write a letter to the Pope if it bothers you that much. But if the Church is going to puff up their membership rolls by using me, then I’ll call myself whatever I like. It’s not like it matters in any real sense.
What, exactly, about my “personal lifestyle” is not in keeping with the CCC?
You make these statements, Klaire, and they make you look foolish — you’re assuming I’m living some horribly sinful lifestyle and I don’t want to swallow, hook, line and sinker, every piece of dogma and every doctrine handed down by the Church because it would throw a wrench in this big party lifestyle I’m living.
It may be troubling for YOU that others don’t recognize this supposed power of ALL living priests (including the ones who engaged in repulsive, evil behavior), but so what? You think God is such a weenie it bothers Him that much? You think a God who would blow His cool and throw a fit over some dudes turning His temple into a marketplace isn’t seriously livid over priests who used their position — who used HIS name — to do vile, vile things to innocents? I wouldn’t count on God being as high on some priests as you are.
God and I are good, Klaire. The one thing I am more sure of than anything else in this world and beyond is that I am never outside the love of God — never have been. God is the one constant in my life. So you can threaten and insinuate and hint and try to manipulate, but I answer to God and to God alone. Not you. Not Fr. Corapi. Not the Catholic Church.



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RomCath

posted September 17, 2010 at 12:13 pm


Dcn Greg,
Isn’t about time to stifle some of this rhetoric about he Church and priests?



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Gabriel

posted October 10, 2010 at 1:08 am


Christ established a Church and invested the Church with authority to bind and to loose in heaven and on Earth. Self-appointed freelance Bible interpreters are easy prey for the devil, as they are often times blinded by pride and refuse to submit to proper authority. Thus the history of Protestantism is revolt and heresy.



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Carroll Wuerth

posted September 30, 2011 at 7:25 am


I precisely desired to thank you very much once again. I do not know the things I might have achieved without the entire tips and hints shared by you directly on such a theme. It had been the frightful dilemma in my view, however , taking note of a expert way you solved that took me to weep for happiness. I’m just grateful for the work and even believe you comprehend what an amazing job you have been getting into educating many people by way of your web blog. Most likely you’ve never got to know any of us.



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