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Christian-Baiting vs. Gay-Bashing: Censorship of AIDS-Inspired Art Fans Culture War Flames

posted by Nicole Neroulias

Frank Rich had a scathing column in yesterday’s New York Times about the Smithsonian’s decision, prompted by conservative Catholic and right-wing political outrage, to censor artist David Wojnarowicz’s video, “A Fire In My Belly.”

Rich explains:

When his mentor and former lover, the photographer Peter Hujar, fell ill with AIDS in 1987, Wojnarowicz created a video titled “A Fire in My Belly” to express both his grief and his fury. As in Haring’s altarpiece, Christ figures in Wojnarowicz’s response to the plague — albeit in a cryptic, 11-second cameo. A crucifix is besieged by ants that evoke frantic souls scurrying in panic as a seemingly impassive God looked on.

Hujar died in 1987, and Wojnarowicz would die at age 37, also of AIDS, in 1992. This is now ancient, half-forgotten history. When a four-minute excerpt from “A Fire in My Belly” was included in an exhibit that opened six weeks ago at the National Portrait Gallery in Washington, it received no attention. That’s hardly a surprise, given the entirety of this very large show — a survey of same-sex themes in American portraiture titled “Hide/Seek.”

and:

Like many of its antecedents, the war over Wojnarowicz is a completely manufactured piece of theater. What triggered the abrupt uproar was an incendiary Nov. 29 post on a conservative Web site. The post was immediately and opportunistically seized upon by William Donohue, of the so-called Catholic League, a right-wing publicity mill with no official or financial connection to the Catholic Church.

Donohue is best known for defending Mel Gibson’s anti-Semitism by declaring that “Hollywood is controlled by Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular.” A perennial critic of all news media except Fox, he has also accused The Times of anti-Catholicism because it investigated the church pedophilia scandal. Donohue maintains the church doesn’t have a “pedophilia crisis” but a “homosexual crisis.” Such is the bully that the Smithsonian surrendered to without a fight.

Donohue’s tactic was to label the 11-second ants-and-crucifix sequence as “anti-Christian” hate speech. “The irony,” wrote the Washington Post art critic, Blake Gopnik, is that the video is merely a tepid variation on the centuries-old tradition of artists using images of Christ, many of them “hideously grisly,” to speak of mankind’s suffering. Those images are staples of all museums — even in Washington, where gory 17th-century sculptures of Christ were featured in a recent show of Spanish sacred art at the National Gallery.

But of course Donohue was just using his “religious” objections as a perfunctory cover for the homophobia actually driving his complaint.

You can watch the video itself here. I found it disturbing, but not offensive — at least, no more than you would expect from art inspired by incredible pain and suffering. Then again, I’m pretty cynical about faith-based and politically-approved censorship of art. (Anyone else flashing back to NYC Mayor Rudy Giuliani vs. the Virgin Mary stained with elephant feces?)

Here are some more faith-related links to the Smithsonian story:

What do you think? Share your thoughts in the Comments section below.

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4trucks

posted December 13, 2010 at 11:58 am


This incendiary article from a so-called unbiased author on religion is anything but.



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Robert C

posted December 13, 2010 at 2:36 pm


Some works are art. Some are not. Some are political statements under the guise of art. Some are simply trite. However the NYT always has been biased.



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Bob

posted December 13, 2010 at 3:23 pm


I think the 21st century yardstick to measure whether something is art vs. a political-anti-Christian-message is the following:
* Imagine replacing the image of Jesus (or a crucifix or Virgin Mary or whatever symbol is being used) with an image of Muhammed.
Now envision the reaction, not just of Muslims, but of progressives/liberals of this country.
Now ask yourself, “why was an image of Jesus used and not Muhammed?” What would happen if these “righteously indignant” artists replace their anti-Christian images with anti-Islamic ones to get their point across.
It can be generally agreed upon that the Muslim reaction in different parts of the world would be that of a murderous riot and the reaction of progressives/liberals in this country probably would be one of “that’s not right to provoke a religion like Islam – not all Muslims are fanatics” (which is curious, when you consider what the general Muslim reaction would be around the world and curious since they find no problem provoking Christians). It’s also because the artists and the people running the art gallery would have a very real and legitimate fear for their lives.
Jesus is therefore the easier target of the two to use when making political and/or anti-religion statements. In the end, it’s not mainly about artistic value, rather it’s about political expediency and personal safety.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted December 13, 2010 at 3:53 pm


The art piece in question invoked the “Christian” Church’s reaction to the AIDS crisis. Not Islam’s.
But then again, you “Christians” have always been biased, to borrow a phrase.
Separation of Church and State isn’t nearly as harmful as separation of Church and reality.



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Bob

posted December 13, 2010 at 5:03 pm


So again, why target a specific religion’s reaction? Or better yet – why not target Islam’s reaction to AIDS as well? For example, the places most tragically hit by AIDS are in Africa, and Africa has a very large Islamic presence, especially in the north and east. Would it not be equally relevant to question Islam’s reaction to the AIDS epidemic? Of course it would! But it won’t happen because this isn’t truly art for art’s sake – its a political message targeting Christianity specifically because a) Christianity is an easy target and a favorite target of the art community and b) if they DID target Islam, the artists and their enablers know their lives would be in danger.
Islam is a religion that warrants criticism, but the art community would NEVER cross paths with Muslims out of fear.



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Your Name

posted December 14, 2010 at 12:23 am


Read the links and you’ll see that the artist here was Christian. Hence, he created art about his conflict with Christianity.



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Frank

posted December 14, 2010 at 12:27 am


Bob,
You are wrong. Members of both the artistic community and the gay community have criticized Islam and become martyrs for freedom of speech because of it. Theo Van Gogh, a film maker who was a direct descendant of Vincent Van Gogh, was murdered because he made a film critical of the treatment of women in Islam.
Moreover, Dutch Gay Politician Pym Fortuyn was also murdered for opposing political Islam.
As for “Fire in My Belly” is a traditional Catholic work of art. It suggests Christ suffering the pains of AIDS victims (for victims they were in the 1980′s). The ants crawling on the Crucifix suggest the physical pains associated with AIDS.
Catholics first depicted Christ on the Cross suffering from a plague in the fourteenth century, when German Catholics depicted a crucified Christ with the lesions associated with the Black Death. The called this kind of crucifix pestkreuz ( “plague cross”).
Traditional Catholic art is frequently horrifyingly offensive and morbid as you can see in this picture of a pestkreuz ( http://www.panoramio.com/photo/366235 ).
As you can see in this



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Larry Motuz

posted December 14, 2010 at 12:35 am


To Bob:
When one is raised in a Christian country and subject to abuse by Christians, one does not focus on world religions but upon the particular religion that has isolated and created problems for you and the ones you love(d). He focussed on Christianity for the simple reason that it was Christians–evangelical and homophobic Christians–who were causing the harms to this targeted group. I do not regard calling attention to this was Christian bashing so much as calling into question the hate being taught in the name of Christ.
Islam was not part of his or his friend’s experience. Evoyne His



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Sean Gregory

posted December 14, 2010 at 1:15 am


The art is meant to be offensive and it hits it’s mark. O’Donohue has a point that the Church has a homosexual problem in that 85% of the sex crimes were commited by homosexual priests against young boys. THis doesn’t seem to get any air time on MSNBC or CNN. I wonder why? The ‘Gay Rights’ (whatever that is supposed to mean) is offended by Christianity because the Church does not approve of Homosexual Sex, and not with homosexual feelings, but does not owe up to the fact that peadophelia is largley a homosexual perversion.



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Frank Elliott

posted December 14, 2010 at 3:22 am


Actually, Sean. Pedophiles and ephebophiles have neurological in the area of the brain controlling sexual attraction. They both have less white matter that heterosexuals and homosexuals in this area. Both heterosexuals and homosexuals who have never had sex with underage partners are indistinguishable in this respect. Moreover, this particular kind of scan is considered the best predictor of who will sexually abuse minors.
Your can read about it here (http://www.cnn.com/2010/OPINION/04/22/cantor.homosexuality.church.abuse/index.html
It’s Christian freaks like you who have used this lie to drive gay kids to suicide because you convince them they will grow up to molest.
You are no better than a child molester yourself. In fact, you’re probably trying to divert suspicion from yourself because you have some REALLY NASTY sexual problem. ;-)



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nnmns

posted December 14, 2010 at 6:35 am


The Church’s pedophile problem was neither homosexual nor heterosexual. It is the top-level men who hid the pedophilia and shuffled the pedophiles around, thus continuing the opportunities for priests to abuse more of the children entrusted to the Church. And of course those top-level men still infest the Church and will for decades, at least.
If abuse had been treated as it should be from the beginning there’d have been far less of it. You Catholics who want to blame homosexual priests for your problems are aiming way too low on the tree of command.
But this is no more about the pedophilia-hiding problem of the Church than it is about Islam. It’s about the right wing which thrives by making foolish people mad and the timidity that inspires among those who don’t have multi-billion dollars of propaganda machine behind them. I’m a little upset by the Smithsonian but they need money coming in and made a monetary decision. I’m a lot more upset by Fox and such who continue to divide us to conquer, and by the dupes who fall for their made-up “issues” without investigating a little bit first.



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nnmns

posted December 14, 2010 at 10:03 am


I’m curious why my earlier post here was removed. It made a lot of sense :).



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Nicole Neroulias

posted December 14, 2010 at 10:27 am


Sorry about that, folks. I was clearing out the spam, and a bunch of comments got flagged by mistake — I think it’s fixed now.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted December 14, 2010 at 10:36 am


This is yet another example of a rabid Christianist wanting to exercise control over ‘the flock’, only this time it’s about art he doesn’t want others – even those who are not members of his particular ‘flock’ to see.
Typical. Sad, but typical.



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jestrfyl

posted December 14, 2010 at 10:43 am


I think this is one of the reasons why Moses’ Top 10 (as in Commandments) includes a prohibition against graven images. When people have THINGS to look at and venerate, they get emotionally involved when they think the thing has been violated or abused in some way. We are expected to feel that way about people, not things. Look at this as an artistic statement and not simply as somone who took a precious thing and made it look nasty. What does this say about the people behind the art work. How do we as a culture or as religious people set ants on them and then turn away.
Art is not supposed to simply be pretty pictures that refelct our own image of life as we want it, it is expected to make you think, reflect, and change.



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Robert C

posted December 14, 2010 at 11:16 am


Yep. Mention the church and all the usual haters come crawling out of the dank wordwork like clockwork. Always fascinating to me that the biggest ranters are the puerile gay men who need a target to bash due to their own self loathing. Simple. You need to give respect before you get it.



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nnmns

posted December 14, 2010 at 1:24 pm


Wow, Robert, you’re in a particularly vile mood this morning.
It’s a shame the Smithsonian caved, but they made a monetary decision. The real tragedy is that the rabid right wing commentators have a multi-billion dollar propaganda machine at their disposal and that so many people fall for it.



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jestrfyl

posted December 14, 2010 at 3:25 pm


Robert C
Your mixed metaphors amuse me (have you ever really thought about what you wrote?)
I for one am not a hater of the church or of religion. As an ordained pastor of a church, I am quite the opposite. Neither am I a “puerile gay men who need[s] a target to bash due to their own self loathing.” I am not gay and my comments are not based on self-loathing or any other loathing.
My comments were directed to those who prefer to venerate an object and ignore the meaning behind the work – as in the hatred of the people about and for whom it was created. To be honest, I am rather surprised the Smithsonian accepted the work – it is not in their usual portfolio. It is sad they had to remove it because some people could not open their eyes or minds to see below and beyond the superficial image. But then I expect these same folks do not quite “get” the pasages from scripture that state:
“For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and their ears are hard of hearing,
and they have shut their eyes;
so that they might not look with their eyes,
and listen with their ears,
and understand with their heart” (Matthew 13:15)



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Robert C

posted December 14, 2010 at 3:47 pm


jestrfyl you may not be any of that, however you could indeed be paranoid. You assume I was refering to you. I wasn’t. You assume I objected to the exhibit itself. i didn’t. I will suggest to you that as with any work of art, despite the artist’s intent, since no artist creates solely for himself, that its’ meaning lay in the eye of the beholder.



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Henrietta22

posted December 14, 2010 at 5:56 pm


I was just about to comment that Art is in the eye of the beholder, but Robert C. got there ahead of me. This artist was very hurt and angry by the way his partner was treated by religion, and other people probably, who had no compassion. Perhaps the ants on the crucifix was symbolic of how Christians were destroying the love of Jesus. I’m sure the people who protest against the Gay would be the last peoople to put themselves in the place of these ants. In my eye as a beholder it is the first thing I thought of.



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Mordred08

posted December 14, 2010 at 9:48 pm


I’m a little confused at what the Christians commenting here are so ticked off about. It’s sad, really. You get exactly what you want, and all you do is complain about it.



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JohnQ

posted December 14, 2010 at 10:20 pm


Robert C
Yep. Mention the church and all the usual haters come crawling out of the dank wordwork like clockwork. Always fascinating to me that the biggest ranters are the puerile gay men who need a target to bash due to their own self loathing. Simple. You need to give respect before you get it.
Criticizing the Catholic Church does not equate to nor, denote hate of the church. When the Church does something good, I applaud. When the Church promotes prejudice, discrimination, or bigotry towards gays/lesbians I call them on it and criticize their actions.
I personally do not know any puerile nor, self-loathing gay men. I realize that there are some self-loathing gay people….the Church has certainly helped create many. However, the terms “puerile” and “self-loathing” do not describe most gay people.
Your thoughts on respect are amusing to say the least. Probably no organization has shown such systemic disrespect for gays than the Catholic Church. Now don’t get me wrong, I have tremendous respect for many Catholics….as well as for a number of priests. OTOH, the Pope, most cardinals, and bishops as well as people such as O’Donohue have done little or nothing to deserve my respect.



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Greg T

posted December 15, 2010 at 4:49 am


When will people realize that this nation was based on Christianity. See Mayflower Compact, see New England’s, constitutions before 1960.
I was abused by gay men. It is a disease of lust, not a genetic condition. They defend there belief by looking for evidence to support there stand that gay sex is okay. They think God okays it. My goodness where will be drawing the line. “Oh I was born that way”, said the man, as he cheated on his 3rd wife.



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nnmns

posted December 15, 2010 at 6:20 am


Greg if homosexuality is a decision try it. Go on, give it a go. If you’re a real hetero I doubt you could; I’ve no desire to. On the other hand if you detest homosexuals because you suspect deep down you may be one, who knows; you might learn something about yourself.
My real point is, I don’t see it as a decision. Certainly not one I could make and not one any sensible person would make given how they are treated.



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jestrfyl

posted December 15, 2010 at 10:11 am


Greg
I am saddened to read about the abuse you suffered. that abuse does not condemn all people, only those who were cruel and mean enough to target you.
The Mayflower Compact was a comrpomise between the very religious Puritans aboard the Mayflower and the secular Adventurers on the ship for purely economic reasons. As a former New Englander I have no idea to what you refer as the Constitutions before 1960 (I was alive then and doing Current Events in class, so I might have heard about this).
None of this means we were or ought to be identified as a “Christian” nation. In the pre-1760′s Connecticut, the clergy were once the body that elected the governor – and that was proven to be a bad idea. Jefferson and company had it right when they included the provision that protects religion from government and governmnent from religion.



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AverJaneQ

posted December 15, 2010 at 11:14 am


Romans 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
This is the sad part of the death of people in this lifestyle.
When his mentor and former lover, the photographer Peter Hujar, fell ill with AIDS in 1987, Wojnarowicz created a video titled “A Fire in My Belly” to express both his grief and his fury.
Who is his fury directed at if not at Christ in making this dipiction? And why is it whenever someone is offended at such art they are labeled homophobic? As if it is a bad thing to discern that this lifestyle is absolutely wrong and blatant lies cover and embrace it for all to witness in today society?



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Robert C

posted December 15, 2010 at 2:16 pm


John Q. Yippie-yi-yo-ki-yay.
How nice for you. Criticism is one thing, intentionally demeaning for the purpose of political justification is another. Save your applause. I am sure most Catholics don’t give a hoot what you think.
As a gay man I indeed know that there are as many puerile and self loathing gay men as there are puerile and self loathing str8 men, and much of that has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, Christianity, Judaism, Western Civilization, the Ottoman Empire or the collected works of Hans christian Anderson. It begins within. “Most” was never a descriptor.
As to the last, be amused. Respect or disrespect is off the mark when considering Catholic dogma. However, as i’ve experienced it, and quite the contrary, the most disrespect for the gay individual as an individual usually can be found within the gay community itself. We keep on looking for the boogie men under chasubles, when too often we create our own.



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nnmns

posted December 15, 2010 at 3:22 pm


Jane:

Romans 26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

So according to your gospel it was God who made those people that way, whatever way that was. And it’s obvious from the way so many jerks treat homosexuals that no sane person would choose to be one. So in fact if one believes in a god that controls things that god must be making those homosexuals you seem to dislike/detest.
And as others have suggested wouldn’t it be church people the film was aimed at? Whether you believe Jesus never existed, existed but is long dead, or is a god, Jesus seems pretty immune to hatred.



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Dallas Valerian

posted December 15, 2010 at 4:43 pm


Understanding issues like these requires fitting your mind into the that of another to try out your beliefs in another’s context. You add their experience to yours.
Controlling issues like these requires stamping the minds of others beneath your order so you can force your context over their beliefs. You replace their experience with yours.
Oddly natural: The people with the least amount of understanding are so often the ones most desperate to control others.



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Robert C

posted December 15, 2010 at 9:27 pm


Dallas. Nicely put.
NNMNS That last one is one of your posts that reminds me of a pasta colander, but we’ll leave well enough alone. It seems I must not be in a particularly ‘vile’ mood this evening.



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jestrfyl

posted December 16, 2010 at 10:56 am


Quote Romans at your own risk. Paul had far harsher things to say about gossips and anyone that would underine the communtiy of faith through painful and caustic conversation. The greater goal is the living as if citizens in God’s realm, under the rule of Christ. All this other division and closing the door on some and opening it for a select few is human and not divine.
In this Christmas Season we need to remember the Star of Bethlehem shined for ALL people to see, not only a select few. Some folks simply choose not to look up (that has not changed in 2 millenia or across the globe!) or to see what is right in front of them. That same light welcomes all who come seeking sanctuary – and it is not our job to sort them. It is our task to welcome them and treat all who come as honored guests (see Genesis, Abraham, entertaining guests/angels/God).



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Henrietta22

posted December 16, 2010 at 1:42 pm


Andy Worhol (SP.?) has pulled back any more money to the Smithsonian for Art until they restore the Art they just pulled out. The last contr. was 100,000. Other Art Museums are getting into the fray also. Seems Bohner told The Smithsonian they would be under the Republicans scrutiny when they get control of the House about anything else that they think is putting down Christians. The question is will the “C” St. group become the Religious Police for the Arts and etc.



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Zarras

posted December 16, 2010 at 6:32 pm


Where are sin and repentence?



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Robert C

posted December 17, 2010 at 1:20 pm


Nicole. One of my comments seems to have disappeared. any idea why?



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Blondie66

posted December 17, 2010 at 9:08 pm


“…homophobia driving his complaint.” “Didn’t Jesus die for gays too?” What is homophobia? Hatred for gays, or hatred of homosexuality…because there is a difference. God so loved the world that He gave His Son to die for it, yet God calls homosexuality an “abomination”, deserving of death. A dichotomy? Not really. If we have an alcoholic in the family, we love him dearly. But the alcoholism that is killing him? We hate it with a passion! God hated the destructive nature of sin so much that He died to destroy its power over the people He loves so much. Homosexuality is certainly as deadly a sin as alcoholism and its victims live an average age of about 47. Our goal should be to rescue these men, not to enable them!



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Mordred08

posted December 18, 2010 at 4:45 pm


Blondie666, there’s only one thing in this world that gays need to be rescued from. And that’s crazy religious people, doing whatever their imaginary friend tells them to. Even if it’s guilt-tripping innocent children into suicide, or savagely beating someone to death for loving someone of the same sex. It’s not homosexuality that makes gay people die young. It’s religion. You people are the problem, and things aren’t going to get better until you realize that and stop this war once and for all.



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fishy

posted December 18, 2010 at 5:57 pm


Mordred: AIDS is a religion? :?



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John

posted December 19, 2010 at 4:51 am


Mordred08…you go on the usual atheist rant everytime something compassionate is written invoking Christianity and then go on blaming religion, Christianity in particular, for ALL types of human suffering WITHOUT any evidence to back up your diatribe. I could go on telling you the good that religion has done AND is doing for society (World Vision Int., Rescue Missions, Salvation Army, Operation Blessing, countless #s of Christian hospitals etc., etc., etc.) So tell me, what has atheism ever done for society other than murder Christians in the Stalin and Pol Pot regimes? How many atheist organizations feed the hungry and house the homeless? Perhaps when your time on this earth is up, you just may find yourself standing in front of our “imaginary friend” to give an account of all that.



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Robert C

posted December 19, 2010 at 5:20 pm


The biggest threat to the well being of gay men tends to be other gay men. Whether its’ the bar culture, circuit parties, hook up sites, misguided political strategies and counter productive politics, faux religious wars, peer pressure or simple stupidity, the influences can certainly be detrimental. No doubt some religious people carry their beliefs to the extreme, but then again, I know of no philospohical belief system that doesn’t have that issue.



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Mordred08

posted December 19, 2010 at 11:11 pm


John, I’m not an atheist. I’m agnostic. Your “god” may very well exist, but that doesn’t automatically make him deserving of worship. Neither does being able to condemn people to eternal torment for not believing in him or worshiping him. And as far Blondie666 being “compassionate” in comparing homosexuality to alcoholism, I doubt you’d call me compassionate if I compared Christianity to schizophrenia.



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Greg

posted December 20, 2010 at 2:25 am


Okay nobody else is saying it. Images of Jesus have been part of art well since fine art has existed. The artist attentions where how the church were treating aids patients, stigmatized and rejected.
Second censorship of art is a early sign of fascism, art is part of freedom of expression. The Smithsonian and the artist had the constitutional right to display the art work. Even if you don’t agree, since we live in America you cant do anything about it. If the right wing wants to turn fascist and oppressive, they are truly the ones who aren’t American.



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Tom Hennessy

posted December 20, 2010 at 4:56 am


It just evidences how the twisted mind works. The ‘criteria’ to diagnose mental illness was changed and during this change it removed almost everything that actually had homosexuals rated as mental. Homosexuality can be compared to Down’s syndrome with mild moderate and extreme deformity / mongolism. This deformity ALLOWS for the ‘letting loose’ in our society of a group of people who can be compared to Schizoprhenics. The FACT we are FORCED to hire and allow into our bed and breakfasts people who ARE obviously ‘troubled’ leads one to believe there is something wrong with our medical system ? The criteria to define mental illness MUST be reinstated and those people who WERE considered to BE mental will AGAIN be considered mental. The PEOPLE who rework the DSM must come from ALL aspects of society NOT just psychiatrists. ALL doctors to weigh in and many different public forums. Imho.



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jestrfyl

posted December 20, 2010 at 12:27 pm


Hennesy wrote,
“Homosexuality can be compared to Down’s syndrome with mild moderate and extreme deformity / mongolism”
This is so twisted that it is fairly repulsive. It is such a distortion of every medical and psychological study that it betrays finely tuned ignorance and an openness to rumor and rampant foolishness. However, I expect it is a shared opinion, so for people who indeed know this is a papermache demon created to diminish and discredit anyone who dares to be different, it becomes the clarion cry to address and deny any such misinformation and malevolent opinion.



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Saadaya

posted December 20, 2010 at 1:00 pm


This is why I’m a humanist and not a Christian. To me, Christ is not relevant unless he’s given flesh by living, suffering beings of today. A gay Christ, a Christ with AIDS, a Christ who is a war-refuge, a homeless Christ, an immigrant Christ, even a cow or pig Christ who suffers animal cruelty: that is the real Christ, this not the mythical Christ.
I think people who cling to the mythical, fictitious Christ and ignore, or worse yet loathe, this LIVING Christ are ignorant and dangerous … and they may be Christian, but they’re not Christlike.



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Atonement

posted December 20, 2010 at 2:28 pm


Well if we can can just redefine all that we dont agree with (are they mental,as it has been defined that way for a very long time).
WOW what a perfect world that we have made and one in which we don’t need God in ,as we have no sin.
IJohn 1 states “If we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.”
No, I am not gay bashing, I have great compassion for those who are homosexual. Just because I do not agree does not mean there is hateful thoughts in my heart for someone I do not even know.
Truth will remain truth – this year and the next 1,000 years or 10,000 years, it does not change because someone has decided “today I will not accept this”. It will still be true regardless of how many folks try to redefined it,as it is not dependant upon popular opinion.



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jestrfyl

posted December 20, 2010 at 2:45 pm


Saadaya wrote:
“This is why I’m a humanist and not a Christian. To me, Christ is not relevant unless he’s given flesh by living, suffering beings of today. A gay Christ, a Christ with AIDS, a Christ who is a war-refuge, a homeless Christ, an immigrant Christ, even a cow or pig Christ who suffers animal cruelty: that is the real Christ, this not the mythical Christ.”
It is not my point to convert you. But in the service of communion I emphasize the broken bread as the brokenness of Jesus, who shares our brokenness in the world. Christ is all of those people you list and so many more. In Christ God shared our brokenness – that is one of the key components of Christianity. Those who forget this have only a hollow idol, silly love songs, and stories that are reduced to mere fables.



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Frets2010

posted December 20, 2010 at 5:03 pm


Bottom line is that homosexuality is sin. Period. Just like fornication and adultery is sin, so is homosexuality. This isn’t hate speech. It is the truth. Jesus loves the homosexual, he longs to set the homosexual free from this bondage. The power of his blood and resurrection can make anyone clean. It is not love to merely accept anything a person does, just to make them feel good. It is love, to show someone the error of their ways, and warn them. This is what Jesus does in many of the situations you find Him in the gospel.



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Mordred08

posted December 20, 2010 at 10:01 pm


Frets2010: “Bottom line is that homosexuality is sin. Period…It is the truth.”
No it isn’t. I get sick of hearing this. Just because you believe something really hard doesn’t make it absolute truth. I believe the Beatles are the greatest rock band of all time, but I can’t prove that, and it would be wrong of me to insist that it’s the truth and everyone should agree with me or something’s wrong with them.
“Jesus loves the homosexual, he longs to set the homosexual free from this bondage.”
What you consider “bondage”, plenty of people consider an important aspect of themselves that they’re better off for acknowledging and accepting, instead of trying to hide it or “cure” it.



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Frets2010

posted December 20, 2010 at 11:10 pm


Where do you get the truth that homosexuality is not a sin? This is not my opinion. This is what scripture says. This is not a condemnation, it is just the truth. Jesus loves all people and wants to save all of them. I’m sorry but homosexuality is a bondage, just like any other sin, there are many that have come to Christ, and He has set them free from this. Until a person comes to Christ, sometimes he doesn’t realize what sin is. Jesus died for everyone, He took the penalty for everyone’s sin, he rose from the grave and offers eternal life, to all who would receive Him. We receive Him through faith, and when that happens, God declares you righteous. A Christian has no right to feel self righteous, because he isn’t. It is only through Christ are we made right with God. That is the gospel, you have now heard the gospel, and it is your responsibility to accept it or reject it. You reject it to your eternal peril, you accept it to your eternal joy. That is the question, What will you do with Christ? This may make you angry, but these are not my opinions, they are God’s truth. Ask Jesus to save you, and you will begin a journey like you’ve never known.



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jestrfyl

posted December 21, 2010 at 11:09 am


Frets
Something else that is graded “S” for Sin is gossip and hurtful langage in all its forms. The list of sins is long and there are many things well before sexual practices – which include far more heterosexual injustices (which is what it is really about). We are quick to judge others and slow to perceive the sin within ourselves. Perhaps this is why the Ancients wrote that God alone is the judge. If we are called to love and that is the gretest calling, then anyone – ANYone – who acts in a loving and caring way is walking the good path. It is not our call. There is so little love in the world I am not sure why so many people what to short the supply even more.



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MamaBear

posted December 21, 2010 at 2:23 pm


This “debate” is SUCH an immense waste of time. Both sides use cliches and no one ever gets to the heart of what BOTH sides harbor…arrogant pride (the root of all evil).
That said, I repeatedly fail to understand how my vagina’s preference makes me any more or less who I am…and especially who I can (or can’t marry or spend any amount of time with). That “argument” that it’s a highly valued part of who a person is makes me sad. Sad for the people who repeat it and sad for those who believe it. If my vagina were sewed up, never to be used again; I would continue on using all the gifts God gave me in the unique way they are to be used. If I was told I could never marry, I would continue on doing exactly what I do already. My spouse does NOT make me who I am. Nor do my kids. If you really want to be rebellious and do something edgy…focus on others and not yourself…and pay less attention to what your genitals are telling you. The minute I get married, it is my responsibility to make my spouse a better man. The minute I have kids, it is my responsiblity to teach them to be humble servants. It’s NOT about me. And, when I fulfill that responsibility in my own unique way…I BECOME joyful and whole. That’s it…it IS that easy. No other stupid hot-button, political issues or causes matter – nor do any self-help books or self-indulgent religious traditions. I look for where God’s working…then join in.
I also fail to understand how relativism is an argument for anything good. Without any absolute truth there lacks any grounds for anything moral or lawful. We may as well throw out the words “good” and “right”. It’s survival of the fittest and there’s no room for compassion/love, as that requires an absolute “good” or “right”. Relativism is, however, a fabulous argument for those who want to just do what they want. The difficulty with that, though, comes with navigating around others whose relativity is different from theirs. But, ya’ll do sound awfully smart and use big words when trying to essentially continue to tell Christians you just want to do what you want AND not be told otherwise or disagreed with in any way. Most oftenly, you resort to name-calling (bigot, intolerant, hateful, etc.) When, in reality…we *just* disagree.
In my experience with what I’m witnessing in today’s culture, humanism is to be feared more than Christianity. It breeds selfishness, narcissm and pride – an attitude that it’s all about finding yourself, bettering yourself and doing it with three finger snaps (with style). Which, ironically…isn’t about your fellow humans…it’s about yourself. It should be called “meism”. As “extra-curriculars” to your doctrine, you give a few $20′s to a handful of charities and pat yourself on the back.
Christianity (for those who REALLY read and study the bible/context/culture – not just take exerpts to twist it into hateful righteous agenda – Falwell/Robertson) is to die to self, recognize what God has gifted you with and to use those gifts to SERVE others faithfully and joyfully. Christ personified service. He was the son of a workin’ class guy, associated with drunkards and the lowest of the low…and women (who were grossly undervalued at the time). His message and life transcends time and is EVERY bit as relevant (if not more) today than in biblical times. Again, it’s arrogant to think that we are more “progressive” than our predecessors. What a joke. We’re a much bigger mess than even 100 years ago.
Amazing no one has a desire to admit they’re a hot mess, recognize the need for a savior and humbly and joyfully serve others (especially those who slap us in the face and call us bigoted, hateful and intolerant). This is even especially rampant WITHIN the Christian culture. People who go to church then come home and scream at their spouse and kids all the while spouting scripture to non believers in a soapboxy, self-righteous way.
I personally AM a hot mess. I struggle with selfish expectations that hinders growth in my marriage, impatience with my kids and a desire to not interact with people who are difficult, obstinate and rude. However, my savior calls me to SUBMIT (to Him), ADMIT (I’m a mess without Him) and COMMIT (to living out his Word despite what I’m feeling or want to do). In all cases where I abide, my husband is merciful with me, my children are forgiving when I screw up with them and I am repeatedly blessed BY those difficult people I don’t feel like giving the time of day.
My prayer every day is that people would stop arguing and start serving. The knowledge of the prevalence of WASTED lives and gifts is overwhelming and deeply saddening to me. Peace and love to you ALL (even the ones who are going to roast me)…and Merry Christmas.



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Liberty's Teeth

posted December 21, 2010 at 4:03 pm


MamaBear,
I just have to say: AMEN!
And Merry Christmas to everyone, believer or not.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted December 21, 2010 at 4:05 pm


frets,
“Bottom line is that homosexuality is sin. Period.”
Real bottom line is that is only according to your religion. We all don’t go to your particular church, and we believe in freedom of religion.
“homosexuality is a bondage”
Not at all true. For ME, anyway. Maybe those belonging to your religion feel that way. Maybe that’s becasue of attitudes of people like you, though. Most of the rest of us actual gay people are quite free from your particular religious bonds, thank God.



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Robert C

posted December 21, 2010 at 5:18 pm


MamaBear. Nicely put. thank you for your thoughts.



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Frets2010

posted December 22, 2010 at 4:01 am


If I came off being self-righteous, that was not my intent. I know I am also a “hot mess”, and in desperate need of a Savior as well; I understand that daily. I just don’t understand why speaking biblical truth is deemed as being unloving, when I believe that not speaking the truth in love is very hurtful to a person. Truth is constant and it doesn’t change. Truth changes circumstances, circumstances can never change truth.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted December 22, 2010 at 10:55 am


frets,
Yes, you did come off as being self-righteous. Not to worry. We’re quite used to that coming from religionists.
Sorry you’re a “hot mess”. Hope your “Savior” fixes that real soon.
There’s a lot of things you “don’t understand”, primary among them is that not all people of faith agree with your church’s ‘understanding’ of “[B]iblical truth”. (Why is it so many self-identified ‘Christians’ don’t honor the title of their Holy Book with the capital ‘B’ it warrants?) But your interpretation of it absolutely IS “unloving”. And HOW you ‘speak the truth’ is what comes across as both unloving AND “hurtful”.
When you mature in your faith enough to allow other people to follow the tenets that they believe in, maybe you’ll no longer be such a conflicted, judgemental “hot mess”.



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J L Fuller

posted December 22, 2010 at 11:16 am


Why is it that people of faith MUST suffer indignities to their strongly held views while it is wholly unacceptable when it happens to non-religious people?



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Frets2010

posted December 22, 2010 at 11:32 am


You speak of my “church” , what church are you referring to? You also speak of others following “tenets” of their religion. What tenets are you speaking of? I’m sorry that speaking biblical truth to others is “unloving”, but when Jesus was with the woman who committed adultery, and He told her that he didn’t condemn her, however He told her to go and sin no more, was this “unloving”? No I don’t believe it was. I’m sorry Grumpy that you are so angry and I hope that you find peace. Conflicted? No I’m not conflicted. My Savior loves you and can set you free, I hope you find peace.



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Campbell

posted December 25, 2010 at 9:38 am


Donohue also found the work “homoerotic”…as a gay man myself…I did not.



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white tiger

posted December 25, 2010 at 10:58 am


Grumpy is dead bang wrong, from the top on down.It is not “mature” to tolerate error which will deprive others of salvation. That is hateful.
You did not “come off as selfrighteous”. Grumpy certainly does. Your righteousness stems from your response in obedient faith to the commands of our Lord, Jesus Christ, without Whose Blood and grace and love no one could be righteous. You are righteous only because He made you righteous when you responded to His call with a faith that works through love. Where is the “self” in that scenario?
You are not a “mess”; hot or cold. Grumpy, not a Christian, is a mess.
“It isn’t what you said, its how you said it” is possibly the phoniest criticism ever uttered. This is hypocritical hypersensitivity extended to ridiculous limits. Finding no basis for a real complaint against the speaker, the lying hypocrite manufactures one out of thin air. “Oh, did you see her body language, his tone of voice, the expressions on their faces”;when they said you have to obey Jesus to go to heaven! Silly, deceitful stuff!
And, finally, the “interpretation argument”: “How dare you sit there and insist that “Thou shalt not steal” forbids stealing? I’ve read six books on that verse, and they all agree that stealing isn’t even the subject here.” And similar unscriptural, irrational, satanic objections to the Truth. Don’t follow Grumpy. He is both ignorant and evil. And I speak the truth to him in love by telling him so; because if he doesn’t learn to trust, love and obey Jesus Christ he’s going to have a most unpleasant eternity. He may not do it his way. He, like all of us, must do it Jesus’ way.



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Humble

posted December 25, 2010 at 12:41 pm


Fellow Christians, while you are biblically correct and the truth is the truth,try to remember our Lords’ example of the beam/mote. What will extinguish these flaming darts would be to simply admit first that “hey, my sins are a lot worse than yours” but “there is a way to find forgiveness of those sins”. Then the truth will truly set them free.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 25, 2010 at 3:50 pm


Those who object to homosexuality can’t logically believe same sex attraction is both a sin and a sickness.If homosexuality is a mental illness,then it is a medical issue,not a moral issue,therefore, there is no intellectual justification for condemning it as sin.If homosexuality is a sin,then it is a moral issue,not a medical one,therefore,there is no reason to call it an illness.
You can’t have it both ways.Furthermore,if homosexuality can be ‘cured’ by medical science or psychotherapy,then what need is there for concepts like sin and salvation? Who needs a savior when all you have to do liberate yourself from guilt and punishment for sin is undergo therapy, or take a pill for whatever moral problem ails you?
Fact is,homosexuality is just a variant of human sexuality.It is found in countless species of animals, as well as in every human culture the world over.



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Tom Hennessy

posted December 26, 2010 at 3:11 am


Quote: It is found in countless species of animals, as well as in every human culture the world over
Answer: Chimpanzees regularly kill the babies IN ORDER FOR the mother to come into heat so she will copulate with him . You can drag out your ‘the beasts do it’ until the cows come home BUT it doesn’t make what the animals DO .. the right thing. Does it .. big guy. Animals regularly eat feces too and since homosexuals COMMONLY also eat feces / coprophagia then I suppose you figure the ‘scat culture’ and the eating of feces is ‘normal’ ? Evidently.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 26, 2010 at 1:32 pm


Evidently Tom Hennessy is an intellectual casuality of right wing religious nuts and propagandists like Scott Lively and Fred Phelps.Since he can’t(or doesn’t want to argue) on the basis of facts he trots out the most scandalous and vile lies in an attempt to demonize them.
So tell me,big guy,where is your evidence? Oh,I forgot,religious fanatics like you don’t recognize the existence of an external world which has any reality apart from your mind.You have no facts to back up your scandalous accusations.
Eating feces is a common practice among gays? Yeah right,and I have no doubt you also beleive that jews used to kidnap and cannabalize Christian babies in the Middle Ages.



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Bill

posted December 26, 2010 at 8:18 pm


“The minute I get married, it is my responsibility to make my spouse a better man. The minute I have kids, it is my responsiblity to teach them to be humble servants. It’s NOT about me. And, when I fulfill that responsibility in my own unique way…I BECOME joyful and whole.”
I would suggest that this philosophy is no better than anything else having been forwarded here. May I ask, Mamabear, what happens when your husband doesn’t become a better man? Or, your kids turn out to be jerks? How and when did it become your responsibility for the “goodness” of anyone else? You are almsot certainly doomed for failure and, by your standards, a life without joy or fulfillment. Not my words/standards, but yours.
The Bible is clear (since it is the reference being discussed) in that homosexuality is a sexual sin, no different than any other sexual sin. It is indeed a moral failure, not a sickness to be cured by a pill or shot, or even “retraining.” It is a desire in which one is born with (my belief). That is not to say it is OK to be acted upon, but it is very real. My desire for females likewise has restrictions and bounds according to scripture. No different. Because I believe homosexuality, like adultery, is a sin, it doesn’t make me a homophobe. I am no more “phobic” or fearful of homosexuals than I am about greedy people, liars or any others “sinners.” ut I also do not condone the choices made any more than those of adulterers or any other.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 26, 2010 at 9:09 pm


Homosexuality…”is indeed a moral failure,not a sickness to be cured by a pill or a shot,or even ‘retraining’.It is a desire in which one is born with…”
So an inborn desire for someone of the same sex constitutes a moral failure?
I disagree.
Morality pertains only to matters open to choice.



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Laura Jones

posted December 27, 2010 at 1:54 am


Tom Hennessy: “You can drag out your ‘the beasts do it’ until the cows come home BUT it doesn’t make what the animals DO .. the right thing.”
Mentioning the existence of a spectrum of sexual orientations within the animal kingdom is simply a way to illustrate the inherent nature of those orientations.
This fact defies the oft spouted phrase, “It is unnatural!”
However, instead of defending your opinions about homosexuality, you concoct inflammatory comparisons to justify your purely moral-stance on a subject, like infanticide. I mean, really? You are comparing two consenting adults falling in love with one another to baby-killing?
Anyway…
To answer your question: yes, homosexuality is normal… to homosexuals. Homosexuality is not normal to heterosexuals. But just like heterosexuality, the homosexual orientation is not based on a set of ‘actions’ one preforms. Instead, it is based primarily on how a person feels; to whom they are attracted on an emotional level. To wit: a man could be celibate for the rest of his life and he’d be no less straight, or gay, or bi.



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Your Name

posted December 27, 2010 at 9:47 pm


Seems like gay-bashing has hit all-time lows: comparisons to Down Syndrome, monkees and sh!t-eating. (‘I suppose you figure the ‘scat culture’ and the eating of feces is exclusive to homosexuals? Evidently.’)
How typically ‘Christian’ of you. You’ve out-Drehered Dreher.



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Frets2010

posted December 28, 2010 at 1:49 am


“Normalcy” is not the argument here. Calling sin, “sin” is.. Is homosexuality any worse than say, adultery? Absolutely not. Both are sin. Jesus died for both. There would be no one here on this forum that would argue that heterosexual adultery was sin. As Christians we know it is sin, and should be repented of. I’m not saying that the lost homosexual needs to clean up his act. I’m saying that the lost homosexual, as well as the lost “anybody”, needs to come to Christ, and let Him take away that emptiness that gnaws within the lost man and woman, regardless of sexual orientation. Jesus LOVES all people and wants to set them FREE, not let them stay as they are. For if they stay as they are, they will suffer God’s terrible wrath and spend eternity away from Him. We need to stop telling people that’s it’s okay to live a certain way, when the scripture teaches otherwise. To do that is the height of deception and hatred, it is not love. I will risk the hatred of people in order to tell them God’s truth. Because it is my desire that all people come to know Christ.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 30, 2010 at 9:15 am


Frets2010 gets it right AND correct.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 30, 2010 at 9:26 am


Charles Thomas asks:
So an inborn desire for someone of the same sex constitutes a moral failure?
Mr. Incredible says:
Thanks to Adam and Eve, not God, we are born with a sin nature. That’s why we must born again.
Homosexuality arises from the sin nature, not the Godly nature that comes with being born again.
Those who are not born again are children of the sin nature, and that’s why homosexuality seems, to them, natural, even though it is not. The sin nature deceives them into believing that homosexuality is inborn. Those who are born again are not so deceived.
Charles Thomas asks:
Morality pertains only to matters open to choice.
Mr. Incredible says:
Those who claim to be homosexual chose to go homosexual. They made themselves homosexual. God made all heterosexual, as we see in Genesis 1. Had God made them homosexual, that creation would’ve been part of the creation of Man’s spirits in Genesis 1. It, however, is nowhere to be found, except in the deviant choices of some human creatures.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 30, 2010 at 9:37 am


Charles Thomas says:
Fact is…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “fact”?
Charles Thomas says:
…homosexuality is just a variant of human sexuality.
Mr. Incredible says:
If that’s so, God wouldn’ve included homosexuality in His creation of Man’s spirits in Genesis 1. He didn’t. So, homosexuality must’ve occured OUTSIDE His creation of man. That means that homosexuality is not God’s choice, rather the choice of some men and women. They choose the secretions of the sin nature over what is Godly.
Charles Thomas says:
It is found in countless species of animals…
Mr. Incredible says:
You look to the animal kingdom for sex tips???
Man is a Special Creation. Not an animal.
Charles Thomas says:
…as well as in every human culture the world over.
Mr. Incredible says:
Oh, the Clinton excuse: “Everybody does it!”
The sin nature is alive and well in a lotta places.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 30, 2010 at 9:44 am


Humble says:
Fellow Christians, while you are biblically correct and the truth is the truth,try to remember our Lords’ example of the beam/mote.
Mr. Incfredible says:
Jesus was talking to the unrighteous, not the Righteous, as evidences, further, in Romans 2:1, 3. He tells the Righteous to “judge Righteous judgment” — that is, according to the Word of God, not our own word.
Humble says:
What will extinguish these flaming darts would be to simply admit first that “hey, my sins are a lot worse than yours” but “there is a way to find forgiveness of those sins”.
Mr. Incredible says:
This is true.
Humble says:
Then the truth will truly set them free.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Truth, sitting on a coffee table, will not set anybody free. One must KNOWS the Truth.
Even if one picks Him up and reads the Truth and knows the Truth, it’s still not enough, as we see in John 8:31. You must CONTINUE in the Truth.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 30, 2010 at 9:45 am


must KNOWS —- must KNOW



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Carol

posted December 30, 2010 at 11:49 am


Nicole you may disagree with censorship of such so called art and I agree except when it comes to our tax dollars being used to support the arts. Let such offensive art only be shown in private showings and not anything supported by people the art is meant to offend. Let that artist find his monies from his own supporters of his art. I know a lot of struggling talented artists that would love to have the opportunity afforded this so called artist.
You can make an X rated film and that is called art also but tax money by our government is not used to support such porn houses. The majority of the people is the government and if the majority is not in favor of where their money should be spent …hence no funding. 95% of Americans are Christian believers which is indicative of a large percentage of Americans that would oppose their tax money being spent this way.
You want to support this artist let him join some foundation that you can contribute to but leave our governmental monies out of it. Otherwise let the people have prayer back in school. We don’t because prayer in school offends “a few” whereas this art offends the majority.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 30, 2010 at 8:45 pm


What an appalling lack of self-awareness leads someone like Mr Incredible to claim one one hand that homosexuality arises from a “sin nature”(which thanks to Adam and Eve, we are BORN WITH)then one the other hand, proclaims that homesexuality is NOT something inborn,but the result of a willful choice made by those who have an attraction for the same sex?
You’re contradicting yourself.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 31, 2010 at 1:02 am


“Relativism is,however,a fabulous argument for those who want to do just what they want.”
Religion is also a great argument for those who want to believe just what they want to believe, regardless of any facts to the contrary.
It also provides believers with a convenient argument for manipulating you into doing what THEY want you do do for THEIR own selfish benefit, all the while claiming that what really motivates them is selfless concern for your eternal welfare.
Really,the only difference between modern Christians and modern humanists is the difference between those who think that truth is determined by faith, and those who think that truth is determined by feelings.
Religion and relativism are just two sides of the same coin.



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Frets2010

posted December 31, 2010 at 1:31 am


Mr. Thomas, Christians believe that truth is determined by God’s Word. We are not trying to manipulate people in doing what we want them to. It does not benefit us or harm us if people are homosexuals We are ambassadors of Christ, and we Mr. Thomas love you. It would be so much easier to not say anything, to go about life and not stand for truth, to not care. But we as Christians have found the source of life, we don’t thirst anymore, not because we are anything, but because we have found the “water”. Jesus loves you more than we could ever begin to. This is why we contend for the faith. Hell is real, it’s not made up, we didn’t make it up. We all owe God an eternity. But God in His great mercy, sent His Son, to die on a cross and pay for our eternity, for your eternity. He offers it as a free gift. By calling on the name of His Son Jesus, you can receive this gift. And he will create in you a new man, one who doesn’t thirst, but has found the meaning to life. Will all your problems go away? Nope. But you will have God’s power to deal with them, power that you have never experienced before. A person’s soul is the issue here, plain and simple, your soul is the most precious thing you have. Don’t toy with it. Don’t roll the dice.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 31, 2010 at 2:31 am


Charles Thomas says:
What an appalling lack of self-awareness leads someone like Mr Incredible to claim one one hand that homosexuality arises from a “sin nature”(which thanks to Adam and Eve, we are BORN WITH)then one the other hand, proclaims that homesexuality is NOT something inborn,but the result of a willful choice made by those who have an attraction for the same sex?
You’re contradicting yourself.
Mr. Incredible says:
However, it’s not something God gave us. It’s something Man gave us through disobedience. Disobedience gave the sin nature authority to act. God sent Christ to help us fight the sin nature from which Godless notions arise. The sin nature is not what God wants for us. The sin nature is Godless and not normal.
The only contradiction is in your head.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 31, 2010 at 2:33 am


Frets 2010, again, has it right and correct!



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Your Name

posted December 31, 2010 at 11:46 am


O Jeezus, yet another thread hijacked by the self-acknowledged not credible poster.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 31, 2010 at 2:37 pm


Your Name says:
O Jeezus, yet another thread hijacked by the self-acknowledged not credible poster.
Mr. Incredible says:
If this thread were hijacked, you wouldn’t be able to get a word in edgewise. And, yet, here you are, able to get in a word whenever you want. There are enough electrons for everybody.
Nobody is stopping you, except your inability to address issues we bring up. If you were able and competent to do so, you would. You don’t cuz you can’t.



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kath67

posted December 31, 2010 at 7:39 pm


I guess what I truly don’t understand after reading ALL of these posts carefully, is why gay people don’t understand that homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible. No, it is no worse than any other sin, but it is indeed a sin. Christians are not trying to act as though they are high and mighty. Most Christians sin everyday. But we ask for forgiveness and try to follow a better path and try not to sin. Homosexuality is a deviant sexual lifestyle. Gays/lesbians are trying to shove it down our throats and make it “normal”. To true Christians, homosexuality will never be normal. If a person reads the bible, truly reads the scriptures, they would understand this fact. God destroyed Soddom and Gomorrah (I’m sure I spelled this wrong) due to the homosexuality and other sins occuring there. The only way I can believe that a person who is gay could believe that it is ok is if they don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God. I pray for a friend of mine who is gay, just like I pray for my other friends for other reasons. Christians are not the problem. We have something known as the Bible to back us up. Argue whatever you want. We are right to believe as we do. Even if you don’t want it, I will pray for everyone who has posted here. Not because I think I am better, because I too sin. I just know it when I sin and know to ask for forgiveness. I will pray that you too will know to pray for your own forgiveness.



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Charles Thomas

posted December 31, 2010 at 8:56 pm


“Christians believe that truth is determined by God’s Word.”
The truth about what is determined by the Bible?
Even if the Bible is the literal, infallible word of God,that does not mean the Bible determines the truth on all matters.
The truth on all matters is determined by the facts of reality.And sometimes the facts of reality contradict what is written in scripture,or at least,the traditional interpretations of scripture.
I’m sure Mr Incredible will object to this by asking such questions as “whose facts?”or “whose reality?”,implying that there is no objective means of determing the truth of any given matter apart from revelation.
Such questions are based on the relativistic premise that one can never know anything about the world in which we live,or that it has no fundamental identity and external existence apart from the mind of God or what one personally feels or believes,as if everything we detect with our five senses is just an illusion,or a projection of divine or human consciousness.
My point is that religion is just subjective and relativistic as humanism.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name – the Name above ALL names!

posted December 31, 2010 at 9:20 pm


JESUS CHRIST — THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE — THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER !

kath67 says:
I guess what I truly don’t understand after reading ALL of these posts carefully, is why gay people don’t understand that homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible.
Mr. Incredible says:
Cuz the pleasures of sin, in their eyes, is much more rewarding. They can’t understand. They are blind. They are deaf.
kath67 says:
Homosexuality is a deviant sexual lifestyle.
Mr. Incredible says:
Not to mention chosen.
kath67 says:
Gays/lesbians are trying to shove it down our throats and make it “normal”.
Mr. Incredible says:
They can’t make normal what God detests.
kath67 says:
To true Christians, homosexuality will never be normal.
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s cuz it’s not normal to God.
“Normal,” to those who claim to be homosexual, their supporters and activists, is “everybody does it.” To them, it’s a matter of numbers. Popularity. They give no thought to the wisdom of it. They think that, just cuz it can be done that it should be done. That’s what a German Shepherd thinks, too.
kath67 says:
If a person reads the bible, truly reads the scriptures, they would understand this fact.
Mr. Incredible says:
This is why they object to our posting Scripture. Scripture burns their eyes.
kath67 says:
The only way I can believe that a person who is gay…
Mr. Incredible says:
Read: claims to be homosexual
kath67 says:
…could believe that it is ok is if they don’t believe the Bible is the Word of God.
Mr. Incredible says:
They want not to stop what they’re doing. To read the Word of God would be to put their pleasures in jeopardy. They are afraid to do that.
kath67 says:
Christians are not the problem. We have something known as the Bible to back us up. Argue whatever you want. We are right to believe as we do. Even if you don’t want it, I will pray for everyone who has posted here. Not because I think I am better, because I too sin. I just know it when I sin and know to ask for forgiveness. I will pray that you too will know to pray for your own forgiveness.
Mr. Incredible says:
PRAISE THE LORD, that’s good!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who will cast out none who come to Him!

posted December 31, 2010 at 9:45 pm


Charles Thomas alleges somebody says:
Christians believe that truth is determined by God’s Word.
Charles Thomas says:
The truth about what is determined by the Bible?
Mr. Incredible says:
The Truth about life.
Charles Thomas says:
Even if the Bible is the literal, infallible word of God…
Mr. Incredible says:
Everything in the Word of God happened. The words therein describe events as they happened. They still describe events as they happen today.
Charles Thomas says:
… that does not mean the Bible determines the truth on all matters.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Word of God determines the Truth and all matters of life.
Charles Thomas says:
The truth on all matters is determined by the facts of reality.
Mr. Incredible asks:
The “truth” according to whose “facts” of what “reality”?
Charles Thomas says:
And sometimes the facts…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “facts”?
Charles Thomas says:
…of reality…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “reality”?
Charles Thomas says:
… contradict what is written in scripture…
Mr. Incredible says:
Depends on whose “facts” and whose “reality.”
Charles Thomas says:
… or at least,the traditional interpretations of scripture.
Mr. Incredible says:
If somebody, like you, is doing the interpretation, his “facts” won’t jibe with Scripture.
However, somebody, like you, who rejects information based on personal preference won’t allow his “facts” to jibe with Scripture.
Charles Thomas says:
I’m sure Mr Incredible will object to this by asking such questions as “whose facts?”or “whose reality?”…
Mr. Incredible says:
My questions are legit. You realize they are legit. However, you don’t know how to answer them. So, you must stick to your guns.
Charles Thomas says:
… implying that there is no objective means of determing the truth of any given matter apart from revelation.
Mr. Incredible says:
Depends on which facts and which reality you’re talking about. In any worldly reality, we can get close but not sure.
When it comes to life, however, we must defer to the One Who knows much more about it than we do. We do that. You don’t; you rely on what you say is intellect, reason, empiricism, logic, thinking and what you would like us to believe is scientific. Missing and all that is wisdom. You never mention wisdom. Interesting. Very telling.
Charles Thomas says:
Such questions are based on the relativistic premise that one can never know anything about the world in which we live…
Mr. Incredible says:
No, they aren’t. I never claimed that we cannot know about the world in which we live. God gave us the wherewithal to discover our world; and He gave us the wherewithal to discover His world of eternal life and safety. The facts of the world and the facts of the heart are two different things. Scoffers don’t understand that. [1 Corinthians 2:14]
You don’t live just IN the world; you are OF it. That’s the problem. Those who are born again are no longer OF the world.
Charles Thomas says:
…or that it has no fundamental identity and external existence apart from the mind of God or what one personally feels or believes,as if everything we detect with our five senses is just an illusion,or a projection of divine or human consciousness.
Mr. Incredible says:
Again, you missed wisdom. To you, all there is is the five senses. Just as to the German Shepherd.
Charles Thomas says:
My point is that religion is just subjective and relativistic as humanism.
Mr. Incredible says:
Christianity is not a religion. “Religion” is “ceremonial observance.” Christianity is not “ceremonial observance.” It is relationship. We understand that you don’t know the difference. You want not to know the difference. The difference is a threat to you. You’re afraid. I don’t blame you.

AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.



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Charles Thomas

posted January 1, 2011 at 2:31 am


“To you all there are are the five senses.”
Perhaps you should heed the evidence of your sense of sight,scroll through all the posts I’ve made on this thread, and tell me exactly where I even hint that I believe that all there is is the five senses.
There is an objective and seemingly endless reality out there,apart from the mind,but it would be impossible to know and understand any part of it without some kind of sensory apparatus.
My point is that no wisdom is possible without knowledge,no knowledge is possible without experience,no experience is possible without perception,and no perception is possible without the aid of the five senses.This applies not only to this world,but to all other possible worlds as well,including the world of the supernatural.
One could never ascertain the truth of anything if he had no means of perceiving the facts on which truth is based.The truth would would still exists,but one without perception would have no means of knowing it.
“Christianity is not a religion”
Christianity is a religion.It is based on the premise that the only way one can find salvation from sin is through personal faith in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior and Lord.
“We understand that you don’t know the difference”
Who is this collective “we” in the preceding sentence?
Please don’t tell me there’s more than one of you?
“You want not to know the difference.The difference is a threat to you.You are afraid.”
Baseless assumptions,but typical of people like you,thinking wrongly that they know more about the wants and motives of others than others know about themselves.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the ONLY Way to the Father!

posted January 1, 2011 at 3:31 am


Mr. Incredible says:
To you all there are are the five senses.
Charles Thomas says:
Perhaps you should heed the evidence of your sense of sight,scroll through all the posts I’ve made on this thread, and tell me exactly where I even hint that I believe that all there is is the five senses.
Mr. Incredible says:
You have said, in any number of ways, that the only objective reality comes through one, or more, of the five senses. You would be what Abbott calls a “flatlander.”
Charles Thomas says:
There is an objective and seemingly endless reality out there,apart from the mind,but it would be impossible to know and understand any part of it without some kind of sensory apparatus.
Mr. Incredible says:
Even the senses deceive.
“Objective reality” depends on the one doing the viewing, hearing, or touching. Then it depends on the perspective.
Then there is the inner, objective reality.
Then there is a spiritual reality. A whole universe outside what we perceive if we limit ourselves, like you.
Charles Thomas says:
My point is that no wisdom is possible without knowledge,no knowledge is possible without experience,no experience is possible without perception,and no perception is possible without the aid of the five senses.
Mr. Incredible says:
In the final analysis, the five senses don’t apply to perception of God. The senses deceive. Spiritual sense comes into play in the perception of God, even though a combination of physical sense experience could lead one into the spiritual.
Charles Thomas says:
This applies not only to this world,but to all other possible worlds as well,including the world of the supernatural.
Mr. Incredible says:
The physical senses don’t work in the spiritual.
Charles Thomas says:
One could never ascertain the truth of anything if he had no means of perceiving the facts on which truth is based.
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s why the Word of God provides examples. You certainly need the physical sense of sight to read the Word of God, but that’s all. The rest takes place in the spiritual, if you received the Word. Your senses may tell you not to receive Him.
Charles Thomas says:
The truth would would still exists,but one without perception would have no means of knowing it.
Mr. Incredible says:
However, he will never get to the Truth if you listen to the world. It’s “truth” changes second by second. It’s wishy-washy.
Mr. Incredible says:
Christianity is not a religion
Charles Thomas says:
Christianity is a religion.
Mr. Incredible says:
No, it isn’t. It’s relationship. It is not based on men approaching God. It’s based on God approaching men, through Christ, and wanting relationship.
Charles Thomas says:
It is based on the premise that the only way one can find salvation from sin is through personal faith in Jesus Christ as one’s Savior and Lord.
Mr. Incredible says:
THAT’s Christianity, through relationship, not through religion – that is, ceremonial observance.
Islam, for example, is a religion. It’s based on performance of men who try to please God through works. According to Christ, it’s not possible to please God through works. The Pharisees were into works. Even many Christians are into works. Christianity is not about works, rather faith.
Mr. Incredible says:
We understand that you don’t know the difference
Charles Thomas says:
Who is this collective “we” …
Mr. Incredible says:
Redundant.
Charles Thomas says:
… in the preceding sentence?
Mr. Incredible says:
Not important.
Charles Thomas says:
Please don’t tell me there’s more than one of you?
Mr. Incredible says:
Okay. I won’t.
Mr. Incredible says:
You want not to know the difference.The difference is a threat to you.You are afraid.
Charles Thomas says:
Baseless assumptions…
Mr. Incredible says:
We can triangulate it by the words you use.
Charles Thomas says:
…but typical of people like you…
Mr. Incredible says:
You stereotype, too.
Charles Thomas says:
…thinking wrongly that they know more about the wants and motives of others than others know about themselves.
Mr. Incredible says:
Your words, and the way you use them, betray you.

JESUS CHRIST – LORD OF LORDS, KING OF KINGS!



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kath67

posted January 1, 2011 at 5:52 pm


To me, Charles Thomas is talking and arguing his point in circles while Mr. Incredible keeps reiterating the truth. Just for the record, I believe in Jesus Christ as my risen savior, so I’ll be the “we” for Mr. Incredible.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone!

posted January 1, 2011 at 6:37 pm


“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE. YE ARE CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU.” — Jesus

kath67 says:
To me, Charles Thomas is talking and arguing his point in circles…
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s cuz things in his head are going around in circles.
kath67 says:
… while Mr. Incredible keeps reiterating the truth.
Mr. Incredible says:
I never get tired of telling the Truth of God’s Word. Each of their posts is a Blessing – that is, an opportunity to be a Blessing – that is, to declare, or invoke, the Goodness and Favor of God.
kath67 says:
Just for the record…
Mr. Incredible says:

“Let the Redeemed of the Lord say so!”

kath67 says:
… I believe in Jesus Christ as my risen savior…
Mr. Incredible says:
Another light on the hill! PRAISE THE THE FATHER OF LIGHTS!
kath67 says:
…so I’ll be the “we” for Mr. Incredible.
Mr. Incredible says:
Thank the Lord for those who see and hear through Christ!



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name – there's no other name by which we must be saved!

posted January 1, 2011 at 6:46 pm


Charles Thomas says:
Please don’t tell me there’s more than one of you?
Mr. Incredible says:
There’s more than one of me in Christ. We are one in Christ! The voice of One in many!

JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS, TROUNCING GIANTS !



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Charles Thomas

posted January 1, 2011 at 9:27 pm


“To you all there are are the five senses.”
To you, all there is is an illusory world derived from consciousness with no independent reality apart from individual consciousness,as implied by your statement that objective reality depends on the one doing the viewing,hearing,or touching, that it all depends on perspective.
Are you saying that the world in which we live,or the God in Whom you believe,or the keyboard on which you type your comments would cease to exists if you couldn’t perceive those things?
Existence isn’t dependent on individual perspective.
How one interprets existence is dependent on individual perspective.
Also,I never said that the only objective reality comes through the five senses.
Objective reality doesn’t “come” through anything.
Reality just is.
It is a metaphysical given.
But the only KNOWLEDGE we have of that reality is derived from sense perception,and a mind with the rational capacity to make those perceptions intelligible.
You don’t want to know the difference between the knower and the known.The difference is a threat to you.You are afraid,I believe,of realizing that there is a fundamental difference between the Bible and God,and your particular understanding of the Bible and God.



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Charles Thomas

posted January 2, 2011 at 2:10 am


“To me,Charles Thomas is arguing his point in circles while Mr. Incredible keeps reiterating the truth.”
Perhaps.
But so is Mr.Incredible.
His argument is that every word in the Bible contains the literal infallible truth.
How does he know this?
Because the Bible says that it’s true and he believe it,therefore every word in the Bible must be the literal infallible truth.
You can’t get more circular than that.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone!

posted January 2, 2011 at 3:15 am


Mr. Incredible says:
To you all there are are the five senses.
Charles Thomas says:
To you, all there is is an illusory world derived from consciousness with no independent reality apart from individual consciousness,as implied by your statement that objective reality depends on the one doing the viewing,hearing,or touching, that it all depends on perspective.
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s a world you can’t see. You preclude yourself from seeing it. You’re blind.
Charles Thomas says:
Are you saying that the world in which we live,or the God in Whom you believe,or the keyboard on which you type your comments would cease to exists if you couldn’t perceive those things?
Mr. Incredible says:
Those things wouldn’t exist, according to the perception of the person to whom you’re trying to prove that they exist. The person may be incapable, or just willingly and willfully ignorant.
Charles Thomas says:
Existence isn’t dependent on individual perspective.
Mr. Incredible says:
Proof of the existence of something is dependent on individual perspective. The person, like you, may be precluding himself from the proof, and therefore, to him, the thing doesn’t exist.
Charles Thomas says:
How one interprets existence is dependent on individual perspective.
Mr. Incredible says:
Individual perspective determines WHETHER, to him, something exists.
Charles Thomas says:
Also,I never said that the only objective reality comes through the five senses.
Mr. Incredible says:
A connection to the outside world comes through the five senses. The connection to God’s world – the spiritual – comes through the spiritual sense which, in itself, can be an objective reality.
Charles Thomas says:
Objective reality doesn’t “come” through anything.
Mr. Incredible says:
Except through the five senses.
Charles Thomas says:
Reality just is.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “reality”? To whom “is” it?
Charles Thomas says:
It is a metaphysical given.
Mr. Incredible says:
We assume it to be true, and act as though it’s true. It’s not necessarily reality.
Charles Thomas says:
But the only KNOWLEDGE we have of that reality is derived from sense perception,and a mind with the rational capacity to make those perceptions intelligible.
Mr. Incredible says:
Again, nothing about wisdom.
Charles Thomas says:
You don’t want to know the difference between the knower and the known.
Mr. Incredible says:
Depends on who the “knower” is and what the “known” is.
Charles Thomas says:
The difference is a threat to you.
Mr. Incredible says:
Not at all.
Charles Thomas says:
You are afraid,I believe…
Mr. Incredible says:
God didn’t give me a spirit of fear.
Charles Thomas says:
…of realizing that there is a fundamental difference between the Bible and God,and your particular understanding of the Bible and God.
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s the way YOU see it. That’s YOUR perspective, based on YOUR particular bias, chosen so as to support your prejudices.
Charles Thomas says:
His [Mr. Incredible's] argument is that every word in the Bible contains the literal infallible truth.
Mr. Incredible says:
I never said that.
For example, God quotes the Devil, but the Devil’s statements have no truth, nor Truth, in them.
Charles Thomas says:
How does he know this?
Mr. Incredible says:
Cuz, like all those who have done the experiment, I’ve experienced the Word of God. Therefore, from experience the Word is true.
Without the experience of and in God, through Christ, you’re in no position to have anything credible, nor authoritative, to say on the subject.
Charles Thomas says:
Because [he says] the Bible says that it’s true and he believe it…
Mr. Incredible says:
No, He’s not true CUZ I say He is; rather the Word is true cuz I have found Him to be true. EXPERIENCE tells me so.
Charles Thomas says:
… therefore every word in the Bible must be the literal infallible truth.
Mr. Incredible says:
I didn’t say that. I HAVE said that the Word of God is true. I have said that every statement in the Word of God is not a statement of Truth – that is, the Devil’s statements, for example, said by the Devil, or followers of the Devil, are not Truth.

There is more than me, in Christ. We are one, in Christ ! The Voice of One in many ! Many voices as One ! Blessed, and blessing, in Christ !



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Your Name

posted January 2, 2011 at 10:43 am


Does anyone know the name of the disease that causes one to re-iterate one’s name repeatedly (ad nauseam) and in bold throughout nearly every post? Is it narcissism? Insecurity? Or something far more insidious? Potentially fatal? Or is one mearly off one’s meds/rocker?



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Frets2010

posted January 2, 2011 at 5:51 pm


I too number myself as the “we” and support my brothers and sisters in the contending for the faith, and the pursuit of God’s truth. Truth defines circumstances, if circumstances defined truth, then truth would be relative. If truth is relative then there is no anchor for that person, truth changes with the tides of the day, this is an uncertain existence, and an unhappy one at that. We could live without boundaries, however a life without boundaries always leads to self- destruction, because a human ” out of the box” is depraved. God fortunately has given us boundaries to protect us, this is His truth which is found in Jesus Christ, and through His word. You know Mr. Thomas, the very fact that you are discoursing with a number of Christians, proves that God is persuing you, speaking through the truth to bring you to Himself, you are on this forum for a reason. He is calling to you through His servants to be reconciled to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ.



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Frets2010

posted January 2, 2011 at 5:53 pm


I too number myself as the “we” and support my brothers and sisters in the contending for the faith, and the pursuit of God’s truth. Truth defines circumstances, if circumstances defined truth, then truth would be relative. If truth is relative then there is no anchor for that person, truth changes with the tides of the day, this is an uncertain existence, and an unhappy one at that. We could live without boundaries, however a life without boundaries always leads to self- destruction, because a human ” out of the box” is depraved. God fortunately has given us boundaries to protect us, this is His truth which is found in Jesus Christ, and through His word. You know Mr. Thomas, the very fact that you are discoursing with a number of Christians, proves that God is persuing you, speaking through the truth to bring you to Himself, you are on this forum for a reason. He is calling to you through His servants to be reconciled to Him, through His Son Jesus Christ.



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kath67

posted January 2, 2011 at 7:39 pm


I take objection to the statement that reality just is. I believe that everything happens for a reason. God has a plan for everyone. The problem is that some people reject His plan and choose their own desires over the will of God. I have had joy and tragedy in my life, but I know that He is with me to rejoice or help me through my sorrow. I also know that no matter what I want/wish I could do that is not part of God’s plan for me, some things are sinful and against God’s Word and I resist. Homosexuality is an abomination to God. Just because you “believe” reality just is does not make it true. I know that some say just because the Bible says something does not make it true, but are you willing to risk eternity in Hell to prove us wrong?



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Charles Thomas

posted January 2, 2011 at 8:15 pm


You know Mr Thomas,the very fact that you are discoursing with a number of Christians,proves that God is persuing you,speaking through the truth to bring you to himself,you are on this forum for a reason.”
Or maybe the fact that I’m having a discussion with Christians,simply proves that I’m having a discussion with Christians.It doesn’t prove that God personally led me to this forum to find salvation.
And Really,the primary reason I’m on this forum has more to do with the fact that I enjoy participating in debates about religion and philosophy than anything else.
The notion that God is acting,speaking,or persuing me through you, Mr.Incredible,or other Christians on this forum is simply too incredible for me to believe,just as you would find it too incredible to believe that God is acting,speaking and pursuing you and Mr. Incredible through me.



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kath67

posted January 2, 2011 at 8:44 pm


Charles Thomas -
Maybe you should listen and understand that you are on this forum for the very reason you deny…God is reaching out to you through us. I do not condemn you or anyone else. I pray for you, whether you like it or not. I care for other human beings and their future. God DID put you here on THIS forum for a reason, if only you would listen.



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Charles Thomas

posted January 2, 2011 at 9:01 pm


I honestly don’t understand why so many people find the idea that “reality just is” so objectionable.
When someone says that reality just is,he or she is referring to the state of things as they actually exist.
It is simply a recognition of fact.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who does not hide from His own !

posted January 22, 2011 at 4:23 pm


Charles Thomas says:
I honestly don’t understand why so many people find the idea that “reality just is” so objectionable.
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s been explained to you, and others, too many times to count. If you can’t understand by now, there’s no sense in trying to explain it to you again.
Charles Thomas says:
When someone says…
Mr. Incredible asks:
When who says?
Charles Thomas says:
… that reality just is…
Mr. Incredible asks:
“Reality” as HE sees it, or thinks it, or dreams it, or makes it up, or as he thinks somebody else may, or may not, see it?
Charles Thomas says:
…he or she is referring to the state of things…
Mr. Incredible asks:
State of what things, where?
Charles Thomas says:
…as they actually exist.
Mr. Incredible asks:
“As they actually exist” where?
Can those “things” just exist, or must they “actually” exist?
Charles Thomas says:
It is…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Where “is” it?
Charles Thomas says:
…simply a recognition…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Who is doing the recognizing?
Charles Thomas says:
…of fact.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “fact”? Who has made the determination of “fact” and according to what standard and according to what environment?

AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.



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Not as good as YOU apparently

posted April 28, 2011 at 12:58 pm


@ Blondie666,

“God calls homosexuality an “abomination”, deserving of death.”

Just like eating shrimp is “an abomination”. And just like disobedient children and the victims of incest are “worthy of death”. That’s some mighty fine old-time religion ya got there. (Not that you would put incest victims to death in your ‘church’.)

“A dichotomy? Not really.”

Correct. More like an inanity.

“If we have an alcoholic in the family, we love him dearly. But the alcoholism that is killing him? We hate it with a passion!”

Alcoholism is a diseaase. Being gay is not. Your version of “charity” is unseemly. Your habit of bearing false witness is puke-making. (And not “Christian”.)

“God hated the destructive nature of sin so much that He died to destroy its power over the people He loves so much.”

I don’t think God “died”, but if he did and that was his purpose, he did a pretty piss-boor job of “destroy[ing] its power” since “the peple he loves so much” continue to sin, as evidence by your false witness.

” Homosexuality is certainly as deadly a sin as alcoholism and its victims live an average age of about 47.”

Then I must be above average, since I’ll be 60 in September. And my husband i already 61. My pastor (also gay) is 61. You’re full of sh!t.

“Our goal should be to rescue these men, not to enable them.”

And gay people’s goal is to survive the lies and the hate emanating from Christ’s (selective) followers.



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Marc Freden

posted June 22, 2011 at 5:12 am


You have Kobe Bryant shouting out the word Faggot…then again with the jets guy and David Tyree speaking out against Gay Marriage…and of course you have Tracey Morgan being downright hateful against gays and there are no ramifications. Even the sight of Weiner’s Weiner has brought down a Congressman. Are people that afraid of Gays in this day and age? Well Marc Freden, too, has been given pause with the issue. As a gay man, even he feels the need to apologize for the blatant use of the word “Faggot” in his new book “REALLY!?!” Now Freden using the “F” word should get a tacit pass…much like black people using the “N” word to describe themselves. His harmless use of the word…(And you must read the book to understand) has lead him to a video mea culpa on YouTube “Marc Freden Must Apologize to the Gay Community”. Furthermore, Freden has pledged that if Kobe Bryant can be fined $50,000 then he too should pay a price. A percentage of every book sold as a result of his apology will go to the Trevor Project – a gay hotline for distressed teens looking for a voice of calm and understanding. It is the least he can do. Who will join Freden in this cause?



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