{"id":408,"date":"2009-08-19T12:44:29","date_gmt":"2009-08-19T12:44:29","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/tonyjones\/2009\/08\/a-thoughtful-reasonable-pastor.html"},"modified":"2009-08-19T12:44:29","modified_gmt":"2009-08-19T12:44:29","slug":"a-thoughtful-reasonable-pastor","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/tonyjones\/2009\/08\/a-thoughtful-reasonable-pastor.html","title":{"rendered":"A Thoughtful, Reasonable, Pastoral Comment about Same Sex Sex"},"content":{"rendered":"

There have been some real gems among the hundreds and hundreds of comments left on this blog in the past couple weeks.  Among those that bear repeating is this one from Edward Green<\/a>:<\/i><\/p>\n

To begin to understand the Bible’s views (and they are various) on sexuality you need to get into the culture.<\/p>\n

Sex was something that came with marriage. For women between the
\nages of 14 and 18. For men probably a little later. Scripture supports
\nwhat we see in society and studies of sexual dysfunction show, that
\nhuman beings are designed to be sexually active from late teenage years
\nonwards.<\/p>\n

When I read the Song of Solomon I find an erotic poem describing
\nmany different diverse acts of love, most of which happen before the
\ncouple are married. Once you key into the imagery there is not much
\nthat is not covered. Love is awakened? Perhaps she fell pregnant. It is
\nalmost implicit. And so they marry.<\/p>\n

Pre-marital sex in Scripture means pre-adult sex. It also means the
\nrisks of pregnancy outside of the core economic and family unit. The
\nGospels are clear that Mary & Joseph did not marry for love after
\nall (although I am sure they grew to love each other) and they story
\ndemonstrates the stigma of pre-marital sex. But Joseph’s response was
\none of grace (to put her away not shame her), and grace doubled (to
\nmarry Mary). And yes I do hold to the Creedal statements on the Virgin
\nBirth. But is is the appearance of the situation that should guide our
\nresponse.<\/p>\n

So the ‘No Sex Before Marriage’ argument doesn’t wash. The ‘Sex is
\npart of the journey of two people towards life long covenant loving
\ncommitment’ argument does. Contraception offers us more sexual freedom,
\nbut not the freedom to be irresponsible, recreational or promiscuous.
\nRemember plenty of STI’s are passed on by skin contact, that is by
\n‘fooling around’. The ideal is one intimate sexual partner for life.<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

<\/p>\n

So what of same sex relationships in Scripture? King David, despite
\nhis many wives and concubines turned down the warming of a young girl
\non his death bed. The text almost gives us a reason why. His love for
\nJonathan exceeded his love for any woman. We are not asking what they
\ngot up to in private here (although the whole exchanging of armour
\nstory makes it pretty clear to me) as that is a secondary issue. Ruth
\nand Naomi is more complicated. Ruth needed a husband, and is guided in
\nseducing Boaz by Naomi. Uncovering ‘feet’ on the threshing floor is not
\nabout a pedicure, feet being a handy Hebrew euphemism for genitals.
\nGosh aren’t biblical sexual ethics interesting?<\/p>\n

Jesus deals directly with a same sex relationship. The Centurion and
\nhis servant who is ‘very dear to him’. Again what they did together in
\nprivate is irrelevant, as Gerd Theissen points out in the ‘Shadow of
\nthe Galilean’ observers may well have seen the healing as a blessing of
\na same sex relationship even if the relationship was not ‘active’.<\/p>\n

The Gospels do dead with serious sexual sin. The abuse of Salome
\n(probably under-age and brought to dance for Herod’s courts
\ntitillation). The Samaritan woman’s multiple partners. The hypocrisy of
\njudging others when we have all committed adultery in our hearts.<\/p>\n

So we have two theological streams. <\/p>\n

Firstly Sex should be part of the journey towards lifelong
\ncommitment. I do believe that a sexual relationship that does not lead
\nto such a covenant relationship and ends requires repentance. Just as
\nwe should all repent of adultery of the heart. See I do believe in
\noriginal sin and there are plenty of sins we commit that we have little
\ncontrol of.<\/p>\n

Secondly there are scriptural examples of covenent loving
\nrelationships between same sex individuals. Although we cannot make
\nclear conclusions about any physical aspect of those relationships.<\/p>\n

Of those ‘6 texts’ the Hebrew ones are the weakest. The shellfish texts shall we say. But Paul’s thinking does raise questions.<\/p>\n

It depends on how we read Paul. <\/p>\n

If we see Paul as conservative then we are left with the position
\nheld by many evangelical same sex couples I know. They enjoy celibate
\ncovenant loving relationships.<\/p>\n

If we see Paul as a liberal radical mystic we may begin to ask
\nquestions about how people born same sex orientated can be fully
\ngrafted in to the covenant of grace as those of us born gentiles are.
\nSexual intimacy of some sort is part of this.<\/p>\n

As a ‘pastor’ this is how I approach the issue. My ultimate personal
\nconclusion is that I have no issue with a same sex couple in an unique
\ncovenant relationship expressing that relationship in a physical way.
\nThat could be hugs, it could be kisses, it could be more. I don’t tell
\nwedding couples what they should do or not do in private in great
\ndetail. The same for same sex couples. I will give them resources to
\nwork with but the degree of celibacy or activity is something they need
\nto ultimately reconcile for themselves.<\/p>\n

And when I do work with folks who are of whatever orientation and
\nchoose to be promiscuous or polyamourous I remember that my eyes still
\nwander in summer, that I don’t do all I can to combat the sexualisation
\nof the under-aged, and that I have failed relationships behind me.
\nBecause in my eyes a failed relationship with out full sexual intimacy
\n(kissing girls\/boys at bible camp when you were 17 still counts folks)
\nstill falls short of God’s ideal for us.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

There have been some real gems among the hundreds and hundreds of comments left on this blog in the past couple weeks.  Among those that bear repeating is this one from Edward Green: To begin to understand the Bible’s views (and they are various) on sexuality you need to get into the culture. Sex was…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":134,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[12,21,15],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-408","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-comment-of-the-day","category-glbt","category-same-sex-marriage"],"yoast_head":"\nA Thoughtful, Reasonable, Pastoral Comment about Same Sex Sex - The New Christians<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/tonyjones\/2009\/08\/a-thoughtful-reasonable-pastor.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"A Thoughtful, Reasonable, Pastoral Comment about Same Sex Sex - The New Christians\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"There have been some real gems among the hundreds and hundreds of comments left on this blog in the past couple weeks.  Among those that bear repeating is this one from Edward Green: To begin to understand the Bible’s views (and they are various) on sexuality you need to get into the culture. 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