{"id":695,"date":"2009-03-06T03:01:45","date_gmt":"2009-03-06T03:01:45","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html"},"modified":"2009-03-06T03:01:45","modified_gmt":"2009-03-06T03:01:45","slug":"the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html","title":{"rendered":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons"},"content":{"rendered":"

<\/a>Yesterday I began a two-part “interview” with Dave Gibbons, author of The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church<\/em><\/a><\/em>. Today I’ll finish up my conversation with Dave. Let me say, once again, how much I appreciate Dave’s careful and extensive answers to my questions.
\nMark: So, are you really saying that Christians should seek first and foremost to love those who are \u201ctotally unlike us\u201d? And if so, was it wrong for you, an Asian from an urban environment, to go to Bangkok, an Asian city, when you could have gone to a village in Africa instead? Didn\u2019t the fact that you were somewhat like those in Bangkok give you ways to connect with them? Wasn\u2019t this helpful?
\nDave: Actually, I\u2019m half White! Actually I have Irish roots. My birth father had blue eyes. Crazy how Korean genes are dominant. My brother looks more Hispanic! We can look alike. You probably are aware that Japanese and Korean cultures are like Black and White race issues here in America. The Japanese are often hated in Asia because of their oppression of nearby nations. What\u2019s even possibly more confusing is how even though I\u2019m half Korean and part Irish, I\u2019m culturally and more naturally American and Western. I\u2019m a second generation Korean which even throws another layer of complexity into the mix. I probably love grits and gravy as much as some people in the south.
\nSo the truth is Bangkok was a totally different mix of cultures that I was unfamiliar with. It was a mix of multiple Chinese cultures, many sub-cultures of Indian roots, Persian, Northern and Southern Thai, immigrant and expat communities, Muslims, Buddhists and the normal hodgepodge of multiple religions and philosophies. Syncretism is huge in the east. The language itself had five tones. It was the hardest language I ever studied. I thought Hebrew was difficult until I started learning Thai. So while we can look alike we are actually very different. I guess it\u2019s like any major urban, world class city in that regard. There are hundreds of cultures in one city. Even here in Irvine! In fact, I had to repent to the church for my lack of engagement with our neighbor, Santa Ana. When I think of people who are unlike me or I\u2019m not comfortable around, it usually is more of a socio-economic issue not a race issue. Hence, we\u2019ve been working hard in moving forward in building relationships with the city of Santa Ana and her people which is also very diverse.
\n[MDR: What\u2019s you\u2019re saying her is right on. When I was in Irvine, I was amazed by the number of people who were afraid of Santa Ana. Yes, there was more crime there than in Irvine. But people\u2019s fear was far beyond rational concern. Partly, I expect, it had racist elements. But mostly it would about unfamiliarity.]
\nMark: Do you mean to imply that we shouldn\u2019t really bother to love those who are like us? Or that it\u2019s somehow less Christian if I care for a person in need if that person happens to be a lot like I am?
\nDon\u2019t you think churches should, in addition to seeking to love those who make them uncomfortable, also focus their strategic initiatives on all people they happen to meet on the road, so to speak? Should churches stop reaching out to their literal neighbors as they rightly strive to love those who are different from their members? Did Newsong stop reaching out to the Asian population of Irvine, so much of which is not Christian?
\nIn light of your understanding of Jesus\u2019 call to love the neighbor, how do you make sense of his command to his disciples that they tell people everywhere about him, \u201cin Jerusalem, throughout Judea, in Samaria, and to the ends of the earth\u201d (Acts 1:8). Doesn\u2019t this text teach us to be sure and reach out to people like us, our literal and culture neighbors, even as we are to reach out to everyone, including those we despise? You aren\u2019t suggesting that we forget about Jerusalem and Judea, are you?
\nYou explain that \u201cThird culture is about adaptation, the both\/and, not the either\/or, mindset\u201d (40). So wouldn\u2019t a third culture church reach out both to their proximal neighbors who are like them and also to those who are not like them? Wouldn\u2019t third culture Christians seek to reach both those with whom they share a first culture, people like themselves, and also those from the second, different culture?
\nSo now you can see my discomfort with what you\u2019ve written, even though I heartily endorse your basic challenge to the church and appreciate how your experience and wisdom can guide us into more effective participation in God\u2019s kingdom. Perhaps I\u2019ve over-reacted to your rhetoric, reading as a Westerner (which I am, even more so now that I live in Texas!). Or, perhaps I\u2019ve understood quite well what you\u2019ve said, and we simply differ on what the call of Christ means in today\u2019s world. At any rate, I\u2019d appreciate some clarification of your understanding of who is and is not our neighbor and how this relates to the church today.
\nDave: Yes, it\u2019s not an either\/or proposition. It\u2019s a both\/and. We are called to love our family who is probably most like us. Aren\u2019t we worse than infidels if we don\u2019t. But I believe the point of the passage was to call us to a supernatural love that the world would take notice of, a love that was so radical and unusual that they would see Jesus.
\nThe Acts 1:8 text is actually a compelling support to a third culture pursuit. When I read to reach out to those in Jerusalem I believe the context points to people from all over the world gathering there in Jerusalem [MDR: That\u2019s a interesting insight!]. I know it\u2019s common to interpret this as from those who are near you culturally to those who are unlike you culturally. However, Jerusalem did not refer solely to one local homogeneous culture but actually it was the world which includes the both\/and. The first circle was not actually just people like us but both people like us culturally and unlike us, people we\u2019d hate and people we\u2019d like, people we want to forgive and others we wouldn\u2019t want to forgive. The list of people in Jerusalem listed in Acts seems very diverse. I love that passage in Acts 2 where it described who was there:<\/p>\n

5 At that time there were devout Jews from every nation living in Jerusalem.6 When they heard the loud noise, everyone came running, and they were bewildered to hear their own languages being spoken by the believers.?\u00a0 7 They were completely amazed. “How can this be?” they exclaimed. “These people are all from Galilee, 8 and yet we hear them speaking in our own native languages!9 Here we are\u2014Parthians, Medes, Elamites, people from Mesopotamia, Judea, Cappadocia, Pontus, the province of Asia,10 Phrygia, Pamphylia, Egypt, and the areas of Libya around Cyrene, visitors from Rome11 (both Jews and converts to Judaism), Cretans, and Arabs. And we all hear these people speaking in our own languages about the wonderful things God has done!<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

A recent thought to me was even Jesus\u2019 inclusion of Judas in his inner circle. Why would he include someone who would betray him? Part of it was to fulfill prophecy but also, I wonder if it was to demonstrate the extent of His love. . . to love someone who would betray him. To me that is the most difficult person to love. That has been even more difficult to me than crossing the socio-economic gap or the cultural divide.
\nMark: Thanks for putting up with my long-windedness and what might seem like my crankiness. I take you and your ideas too seriously to ask merely some nice affirming question, or to focus only on areas in which we clearly agree. I expect that you\u2019ve wrestled plenty with the questions I have asked, and I look forward to your answers.
\nDave: Mark, I love your heart and the honesty of your reflections. I look forward to hanging out with you. If you come back to Cali, please let me take you out to some good Korean food around the corner. But I guess if we want to be third culture, maybe we ought to go to McDonald\u2019s AND the Indian restaurant at 5 and Culver. We can do both. Much love,
\nDave
\n[MDR: Ah, I love that Indian restaurant, especially the lunch brunch! I don\u2019t get this in my part of Texas. I like Korean food too, though I can take kimchi only in small doses. Anyway, thanks, Dave, for the invitation. Let me return it by saying if you\u2019re even in the San Antonio\/Austin area, I\u2019d love to take you out for some Texas barbeque!
\nMore seriously, thanks again for your thoughtful answers to my pesky questions. Thanks even more for your visionary leadership of the church today, and for putting your thoughts and stories in The Monkey and the Fish<\/em><\/a>. I hope many of my blog readers will buy it and read it and wrestle with it and be transformed by it.]<\/p>\n

FYI: As a Amazon Associate, I get around 6% of anything that is purchased when somebody links to Amazon from my website. So if you buy The Monkey and the Fish<\/em> by clicking the link above, I’ll get around 70 cents. But to avoid the appearance of self-interest in my recommendation of Dave’s book, I will give anything I make from this blog tour to charity.<\/h4>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Yesterday I began a two-part “interview” with Dave Gibbons, author of The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church. Today I’ll finish up my conversation with Dave. Let me say, once again, how much I appreciate Dave’s careful and extensive answers to my questions. Mark: So, are you really saying that Christians…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":214,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-695","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-holy-week-easter"],"yoast_head":"\nThe Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. Roberts<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. Roberts\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"Yesterday I began a two-part “interview” with Dave Gibbons, author of The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church. Today I’ll finish up my conversation with Dave. Let me say, once again, how much I appreciate Dave’s careful and extensive answers to my questions. Mark: So, are you really saying that Christians…\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"Mark D. Roberts\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2009-03-06T03:01:45+00:00\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:image\" content=\"http:\/\/www.markdroberts.com\/images\/gibbons-monkey-fish-4.jpg\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Mark D. Roberts\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. Roberts","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. Roberts","og_description":"Yesterday I began a two-part “interview” with Dave Gibbons, author of The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church. Today I’ll finish up my conversation with Dave. Let me say, once again, how much I appreciate Dave’s careful and extensive answers to my questions. Mark: So, are you really saying that Christians…","og_url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html","og_site_name":"Mark D. Roberts","article_published_time":"2009-03-06T03:01:45+00:00","og_image":[{"url":"http:\/\/www.markdroberts.com\/images\/gibbons-monkey-fish-4.jpg"}],"author":"Mark D. Roberts","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html","name":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. Roberts","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#website"},"primaryImageOfPage":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html#primaryimage"},"image":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html#primaryimage"},"thumbnailUrl":"http:\/\/www.markdroberts.com\/images\/gibbons-monkey-fish-4.jpg","datePublished":"2009-03-06T03:01:45+00:00","dateModified":"2009-03-06T03:01:45+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#\/schema\/person\/1ff094a57b7e41f534434b1723df3d73"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html"]}]},{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html#primaryimage","url":"http:\/\/www.markdroberts.com\/images\/gibbons-monkey-fish-4.jpg","contentUrl":"http:\/\/www.markdroberts.com\/images\/gibbons-monkey-fish-4.jpg"},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/the-monkey-and-the-fish-an-interview-with-the-author-dave-gibbons.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/","name":"Mark D. Roberts","description":"Mark D. Roberts: Thoughtfully Christian Reflections on Jesus, the Church, and the World","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#\/schema\/person\/1ff094a57b7e41f534434b1723df3d73","name":"Mark D. Roberts","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/f2d\/f2ddf5f080861f66ea230384f9d1bab2x96.jpg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/f2d\/f2ddf5f080861f66ea230384f9d1bab2x96.jpg","caption":"Mark D. Roberts"},"description":"The Rev. Dr. Mark D. Roberts is a pastor, author, retreat leader, speaker, and blogger. Since October 2007 he has been the Senior Director and Scholar-in-Residence for Laity Lodge, a multifaceted ministry in the Hill Country of Texas. Before coming to Laity Lodge, he was for sixteen years the Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church in Irvine, California (a city in Orange County about forty miles south of Los Angeles). Before his time at Irvine Pres, Mark served on the staff of the First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood as Associate Pastor of Education. (Thanks to Janel Pahl for taking the photo to the right.) Mark studied at Harvard University, receiving a B.A. in Philosophy, an M.A. in the Study of Religion, and a Ph.D. in New Testament and Christian Origins. He has taught classes in New Testament for Fuller Theological Seminary and San Francisco Theological Seminary. Mark has written several books, including No Holds Barred: Wrestling with God in Prayer (WaterBrook, 2005), Dare to Be True (WaterBrook, 2003), Jesus Revealed (WaterBrook, 2002), After \"I Believe\" (Baker, 2002), and Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther (Word, 1993). His most recent book is Can We Trust the Gospels? Investigating the Reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (Crossway, 2007). He is currently working on a commentary on Ephesians that will be published by Zondervan in 2014. Mark writes a devotional for The High Calling of Our Daily Work, a website associated with Laity Lodge. His \"Daily Reflections\" can be viewed online or sent as a daily email. If you wish to receive this email, just visit TheHighCalling.org and sign up. Mark serves on the editorial board of Worship Leader magazine, where he publishes articles and reviews, including his regular column \"Lyrical Poetry.\" Additionally, he has published dozens of articles in leading magazines and journals. He often speaks for churches and other Christian groups, and has been interviewed on over seventy-five radio programs nationwide. Mark is married to Linda, who is a Marriage and Family Therapist, a Spiritual Director, and a retreat speaker. They have two children, Nathan and Kara.For Publicity Photos and Bio Statements for Mark, please check here. Mark's Dossier Professional History: Senior Director and Scholar-in Residence, Laity Lodge, October 2007 to present. Senior Pastor Irvine Presbyterian Church, June 1991 to September 2007 Adjunct Assistant Professor Fuller Theological Seminary, 1994 to 2007. Courses: New Testament Theology and Exegesis. Adjunct Instructor San Francisco Theological Seminary, 1995 to 2001. Courses: New Testament Greek and Exegesis Associate Pastor of Education First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood, 1987-1991 Teaching Fellow Harvard University, 1980-1983 Education: Ph.D. in the Study of Religion. Harvard University, 1992. Area: New Testament and Christian Origins M.A. in the Study of Religion Harvard University, 1984. A.B. magna cum laude in Philosophy Harvard University, 1979. Phi Beta Kappa; Danforth Fellowship Books: Can We Trust the Gospels? Investigating the Reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Crossway, 2007 No Holds Barred: Wrestling with God in Prayer. WaterBrook, 2005 Dare to Be True: Living in the Freedom of Complete Honesty. WaterBrook, 2003. Jesus Revealed: Know Him Better to Love Him Better. WaterBrook, 2002. After \"I Believe\": Experiencing Authentic Christian Living. Baker, 2002. Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther in the Communicator's Commentary Series. Word, 1993. Contacting Mark: You can reach Mark at: E-mail: mark@markdroberts.com mroberts@laitylodge.org Phone: Laity Lodge: (830) 792-1216 Address: Laity Lodge 719 Earl Garrett Kerrville, TX 78028","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/author\/mroberts"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/695","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/214"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=695"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/695\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=695"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=695"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=695"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}