{"id":694,"date":"2009-03-05T03:01:20","date_gmt":"2009-03-05T03:01:20","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/dave-gibbons-blog-tour.html"},"modified":"2009-03-05T03:01:20","modified_gmt":"2009-03-05T03:01:20","slug":"dave-gibbons-blog-tour","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/2009\/03\/dave-gibbons-blog-tour.html","title":{"rendered":"The Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons"},"content":{"rendered":"

Today I\u2019m part of a blog tour connected with the release of a new book, The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church<\/em><\/a>, by Dave Gibbons. My website is one of fourteen that Dave will \u201cvisit\u201d today as he promotes his new book. In fact, what you\u2019ll read in this post is a Q&A \u201cinterview\u201d that Dave and I had via email.
\nBefore I get to this interchange, I want to say a few words about Dave. I have known of him for many years since he and I both pastured churches in Irvine, California for a long time. Dave is the founding pastor of Newsong, a ground-breaking, shaking church that was once focused on the large Asian population of Irvine, but has grown into a multi-site, multi-ethnic, \u201cthird culture\u201d church. Oddly enough, given our common vision and location, Dave and I met only once during my Irvine sojourn. But I knew of Newsong and we had many mutual friends. I always thought highly of Dave and his ministry, though I was unaware of some of the amazing paths Dave has trod in the last few years.
\nDave is a man of deep faith, wisdom, and integrity. You will see this in our email dialogue below. I\u2019ve done blog tours before, and mostly authors answer questions quickly, as if they\u2019re eager to move on to the next blog. Dave has given thoughtful, careful answers to my questions. And these questions were not happy slaps on the back. But I believe that Dave\u2019s book deserves serious attention, and I had a hunch that he\u2019d take my questions seriously as well. I was not disappointed. Nor will you be in our interchange.
\nBefore we get into my interview with Dave, let me say that The Monkey and the Fish is an important book, one that Christians \u2013 and especially Christian leaders \u2013 should take seriously. Though I might quibble here and there with certain things in this book, that in no way discounts my appreciation for it and its potential impact. (For the record, I quibble here and there with things I have written too.) Dave Gibbons is helping, indeed challenging us to deal with the world into which we have been sent with the Gospel. His experience and wisdom open up new frontiers for those of us who want to live out the kingdom of God in the world.
\nBecause my interchange with Dave was quite extensive, I\u2019ve decided to break it up into two parts. Today you\u2019ll get Part 1. Tomorrow you\u2019ll get Part 2. And now, with no further ado, here\u2019s Part 1 of my interview with Dave.
\nMark: Dave, first of all I want to thank you for this stirring, timely book. Your main point, that Christians need to be \u201cthird culture\u201d, that is, culturally-sensitive, culturally-engaged, bridge-building people, is surely right on. And you\u2019re just the person to bring this challenge. One of the things I appreciate about this book is your openness in telling your own story. Thanks! I have admired your ministry for a long time. As you may know, I was also a pastor in Irvine, California for many years. I always had the highest regard for NewSong and for your leadership there.
\nDave: Mark, great to hear from you! I\u2019ve met you briefly before. We have a mutual friend that I hung out with named Tod, I believe in San Clemente. He was a pastor there. [MDR: Tod Bolsinger of It Takes a Church<\/a><\/em>] I met him at a Max DePree Roundtable. Mark, I\u2019m grateful for your work in Irvine. The people I have met from your congregation were kind and gracious. I can see why. You took a great amount of time to make sure to affirm the book where you felt legitimate. Thank you for your gentle but clear and forthright response. You got the art of third culture communication down! [MDR: Not bad for someone who is now a Texan!]
\nAlso, I\u2019m very appreciative of your scholarship, so your thoughts were very helpful for me to ponder. I\u2019ll try my best to respond to some of your concerns and affirmations. I do so feeling honored that you would take the time to read the book and to reflect upon it.
\nPersonally, I\u2019m amazed people are reading it because after putting the pen down for this book, I wish I would have changed some things or added some thoughts. I guess it\u2019s the period of normal regret after one finishes a work. I tend to be my own worst critic. [MDR: Yes, that\u2019s the writer\u2019s curse.]
\nMark: You\u2019re also hitting the bull\u2019s-eye when you call both the church and individual Christians to the priority of love, to adaptability, to embracing pain, and to risking discomfort for the sake of reaching others. I expect that many who read this book will be encouraged to extend themselves as never before, especially to people who make them uncomfortable. In fact, you have challenged me to think about the people I need to love even though I\u2019d rather avoid them.
\nBut, having said that, I want to ask you about something in your book that made me uncomfortable. (Sorry. Bad pun.) It was your interpretation of the parable of the Good Samaritan and the implications you draw from that story. You rightly point out that the Samaritans were hated by Jews of Jesus\u2019 day as half-bloods and religious heretics. So, indeed, Jesus\u2019 hearers would have been upset because \u201cthe hero of the story is a person they despised\u201d (74). Jesus is defining one\u2019s neighbor in a most unsettling way here, as you rightly observe. You conclude:<\/p>\n

The second most important commandment is all about loving people we don\u2019t understand, whom maybe even the community we live in doesn\u2019t like, maybe even hates, or at the least disregards or writes off. People who are misfits. People who are marginalized. People who are outsiders. Loving my neighbor is not about likenesses at all. It\u2019s not about people who happen to share my skin color or ethnicity, or about people who talk like me and think like me, people who like the same food as me and like the same things I do. Instead, it\u2019s about people I would not normally choose to befriend, people who might make me feel uncomfortable to be around. (74)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

On this basis, you offer a solid critique of the homogenous principle, the idea that a church will grow best if it reaches out to people who are like the church\u2019s members. If we want to see our churches grow in the way of Jesus, you counter, \u201cwe must focus our strategic initiatives of love on people who make us feel uncomfortable, who don\u2019t fit into our thinking and our conventions, who are marginalized and even considered misfits and outsiders\u201d (79). Thus you say things like:<\/p>\n

Anyone can love people who are like themselves. The Father\u2019s love is best reflected \u2013 and is most irresistible and potent \u2013 when we love those who are unattractive to us. (79)
\nWe are to be the living extension of Jesus\u2019 hands and heart to the world. And with what\u2019s happening in the world today, if we live out a theology of discomfort and embrace a biblical definition of who our neighbors are in our churches, both in America and abroad, then we are loving the neighbor Jesus defined two thousand years ago. A neighbor totally unlike us. (86)<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

I think much of what you say here is true, and it surely needs to be heard by the church today. I need to hear it myself. But let me now explain my discomfort and then ask a few questions.
\nI don\u2019t think the main point of the parable of the Good Samaritan is that we should love people who are \u201ctotally unlike us.\u201d For one thing, Samaritans and Jews were not completely different. In fact, their rivalry was so strong because they had so much in common: a common history, a common basic theology, many common customs and values. If Jesus had wanted to tell a story about loving someone very different from ourselves, surely he could have chosen someone other than a Samaritan, perhaps a Roman female slave or aristocratic matron. So, I agree with you that \u201cloving my neighbor is not about likenesses at all.\u201d But I\u2019m not sure it\u2019s as much about \u201cunlikenesses\u201d as you seem to think. It seems to be more about loving anyone in need, even and especially my enemy, and doing so in tangible, costly, sacrificial ways.
\nDave: Yes, in fact, I\u2019m trying to explain this more in my presentations. When I say \u201cpeople unlike you,\u201d I also refer to those who are our enemies and people you may not want to forgive. The cultural component however, still seems to resonate with me as I wrestle with the distinction in races and culture in this passage. I see that while the main idea may be to love an enemy or someone you hate, it\u2019s hard for me to ignore the cultural nuances of this text.
\n[MDR: You\u2019re right, Dave, about these \u201ccultural nuances.\u201d And when people read your book, as I hope they do, they\u2019ll see more of where you\u2019re coming from in your observations. One of the things I found most helpful was your willingness to share (and critique) your own Christian background. Especially in America, we have tended to neglect the cultural issues. This is no longer acceptable, or even possible. Part of what makes your book so powerful is the fact that you have lived so much of what you\u2019re talking about. Your personal stories are compelling. They also make for great reading!]
\nINTERMISSION: I\u2019ll complete my conversation with Dave tomorrow. In the meanwhile, you might want to check out some of the other stops on Dave\u2019s blog tour<\/a>. Better yet, you can buy The Monkey and the Fish<\/em><\/a>.<\/p>\n

FYI: As a Amazon Associate, I get around 6% of anything that is purchased when somebody links to Amazon from my website. So if you buy The Monkey and the Fish<\/em> by clicking the link above, I’ll get around 70 cents. But to avoid the appearance of self-interest in my recommendation of Dave’s book, I will give anything I make from this blog tour to charity.<\/h4>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Today I\u2019m part of a blog tour connected with the release of a new book, The Monkey and the Fish: Liquid Leadership for a Third-Culture Church, by Dave Gibbons. My website is one of fourteen that Dave will \u201cvisit\u201d today as he promotes his new book. In fact, what you\u2019ll read in this post is…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":214,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[1],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-694","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-holy-week-easter"],"yoast_head":"\nThe Monkey and the Fish: An Interview with the Author, Dave Gibbons - Mark D. 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Roberts","description":"Mark D. Roberts: Thoughtfully Christian Reflections on Jesus, the Church, and the World","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#\/schema\/person\/1ff094a57b7e41f534434b1723df3d73","name":"Mark D. Roberts","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/f2d\/f2ddf5f080861f66ea230384f9d1bab2x96.jpg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/f2d\/f2ddf5f080861f66ea230384f9d1bab2x96.jpg","caption":"Mark D. Roberts"},"description":"The Rev. Dr. Mark D. Roberts is a pastor, author, retreat leader, speaker, and blogger. Since October 2007 he has been the Senior Director and Scholar-in-Residence for Laity Lodge, a multifaceted ministry in the Hill Country of Texas. Before coming to Laity Lodge, he was for sixteen years the Senior Pastor of Irvine Presbyterian Church in Irvine, California (a city in Orange County about forty miles south of Los Angeles). Before his time at Irvine Pres, Mark served on the staff of the First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood as Associate Pastor of Education. (Thanks to Janel Pahl for taking the photo to the right.) Mark studied at Harvard University, receiving a B.A. in Philosophy, an M.A. in the Study of Religion, and a Ph.D. in New Testament and Christian Origins. He has taught classes in New Testament for Fuller Theological Seminary and San Francisco Theological Seminary. Mark has written several books, including No Holds Barred: Wrestling with God in Prayer (WaterBrook, 2005), Dare to Be True (WaterBrook, 2003), Jesus Revealed (WaterBrook, 2002), After \"I Believe\" (Baker, 2002), and Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther (Word, 1993). His most recent book is Can We Trust the Gospels? Investigating the Reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John (Crossway, 2007). He is currently working on a commentary on Ephesians that will be published by Zondervan in 2014. Mark writes a devotional for The High Calling of Our Daily Work, a website associated with Laity Lodge. His \"Daily Reflections\" can be viewed online or sent as a daily email. If you wish to receive this email, just visit TheHighCalling.org and sign up. Mark serves on the editorial board of Worship Leader magazine, where he publishes articles and reviews, including his regular column \"Lyrical Poetry.\" Additionally, he has published dozens of articles in leading magazines and journals. He often speaks for churches and other Christian groups, and has been interviewed on over seventy-five radio programs nationwide. Mark is married to Linda, who is a Marriage and Family Therapist, a Spiritual Director, and a retreat speaker. They have two children, Nathan and Kara.For Publicity Photos and Bio Statements for Mark, please check here. Mark's Dossier Professional History: Senior Director and Scholar-in Residence, Laity Lodge, October 2007 to present. Senior Pastor Irvine Presbyterian Church, June 1991 to September 2007 Adjunct Assistant Professor Fuller Theological Seminary, 1994 to 2007. Courses: New Testament Theology and Exegesis. Adjunct Instructor San Francisco Theological Seminary, 1995 to 2001. Courses: New Testament Greek and Exegesis Associate Pastor of Education First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood, 1987-1991 Teaching Fellow Harvard University, 1980-1983 Education: Ph.D. in the Study of Religion. Harvard University, 1992. Area: New Testament and Christian Origins M.A. in the Study of Religion Harvard University, 1984. A.B. magna cum laude in Philosophy Harvard University, 1979. Phi Beta Kappa; Danforth Fellowship Books: Can We Trust the Gospels? Investigating the Reliability of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Crossway, 2007 No Holds Barred: Wrestling with God in Prayer. WaterBrook, 2005 Dare to Be True: Living in the Freedom of Complete Honesty. WaterBrook, 2003. Jesus Revealed: Know Him Better to Love Him Better. WaterBrook, 2002. After \"I Believe\": Experiencing Authentic Christian Living. Baker, 2002. Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther in the Communicator's Commentary Series. Word, 1993. Contacting Mark: You can reach Mark at: E-mail: mark@markdroberts.com mroberts@laitylodge.org Phone: Laity Lodge: (830) 792-1216 Address: Laity Lodge 719 Earl Garrett Kerrville, TX 78028","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/author\/mroberts"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/694","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/214"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=694"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/694\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=694"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=694"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/markdroberts\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=694"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}