{"id":1842,"date":"2007-02-01T02:30:43","date_gmt":"2007-02-01T02:30:43","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html"},"modified":"2007-02-01T02:30:43","modified_gmt":"2007-02-01T02:30:43","slug":"thoughts-on-redemptive-trend","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html","title":{"rendered":"Thoughts on Redemptive Trend"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>This post will put together William Webb&#8217;s 18 criteria but will begin with a few of my conclusions about the redemptive trend. You might want to print this out for future use. My suggestion is that you use a set of Bible verses, and I&#8217;ll include one set (Deut 22), and ask people why they do or why they do not do such things, and then see which of the criteria emerge. My next post on this theme will be a conversation with Wayne Grudem&#8217;s treatment of the redemptive trend. <!--more|inline--><br \/>\nFirst, a few thoughts:<br \/>\n1. Everyone uses the redemptive criteria to one degree or another.<br \/>\n2. What matters is which issues you think move beyond the Bible.<br \/>\n3. A good exercise is to read texts like Deut 22 (see below), reflect first on why or why not you do or don&#8217;t do these things, compare your own criteria with the criteria and, if possible, see if you would assign your &#8220;criteria&#8221; to the same overall categories Webb does (persuasive, moderately persuasive, inconclusive, persuasive extrascriptural).<br \/>\n4. Behind much of this debate are three issues: our view of Scripture, our view of the role Church Tradition (which is a kind of redemptive hermeneutic), and what place we are willing to give the Holy Spirit to guide us onward and upward (say John 14:26; 16:13). Lots of us are afraid of issues two and three. Need we be?<br \/>\n5. His decision to put &#8220;theological analogy&#8221; at #14 as an &#8220;inclusive criterion&#8221; is a bold move; many make this &#8220;persuasive.&#8221; My own thought is that we need to distinguish between the &#8220;ontic&#8221; and the &#8220;clearly analogical&#8221; &#8212; that is what we think is inherent to the &#8220;being&#8221; of God and what is not inherent. Not easy, but needed process to do this.<br \/>\n6. And I think his willingness to say that something that has been proven scientific may well show some parts of the Bible to be cultural is another bold move. Not all will be happy about this, but it is a move worth thinking about with utter clarity.<br \/>\nWhat thoughts do you have about the redemptive criteria?<br \/>\nThe Eighteen Criteria<br \/>\nPersuasive Criteria:<br \/>\n#1. Preliminary movement: a component may be culturally bound if the text modifies by suggests more could be done. The biblical message makes a preliminary (not final, absolute) movement by modifying the ancient Near East and Greco-Roman cultural conditions and laws regulating women.<br \/>\n#2. Seed ideas: a component may be culturally bound if the biblical text is a seed that will develop over time.<br \/>\n#3. Breakouts: a component may be cultural if the biblical text is actually broken out of in another biblical text.<br \/>\n#4. Purpose\/Intent statements: a biblical text is culturally bound if in following it one no longer fulfills the text\u2019s original intent.<br \/>\n#5. Basis in Fall or Curse: a biblical text may be transcultural if it is rooted in the Fall \u2014 since the Fall continues today.<br \/>\nModerately Persuasive Criteria:<br \/>\n#6. Basis in original creation: patterns. A component of a text may be transcultural if it is rooted in original creation.<br \/>\n#7. Basis in original creation: primogeniture (priority granted to the oldest). A component of a text may be transcultural if it is rooted in created order.<br \/>\n#8. Basis in New Creation: a component of a text may be transcultural if it is rooted in new-creation themes.<br \/>\n#9. Competing options: a component of a text is more likely to be transcultural if presented in a time and setting when other competing options existed in the broader cultures.<br \/>\n#10: Opposition to original culture: a text is more likely to be transcultural if it counters or stands in opposition to the original culture. Dissonance indicates permanence. Thus, a text is more cultural where it goes along with a given cultural norm. [Limited usefulness, but generally useful.]<br \/>\n#11: Closely related issues: if a given issue (say patriarchy) is expressed in specific instances (closely related issues like women as property or polygamy), then it is more likely that the specific instances are cultural and not permanent. [I don\u2019t think Webb\u2019s argument is as clear as it could have been, and I may have misunderstood this one.]<br \/>\n#12: Penal code: the degree of severity of punishment in legal codes is a potential indicator of whether or not a given item is transcultural or cultural. The more severe, the more transcultural.<br \/>\n#13: Specific vs. General: a component may be culturally relative if its specifics are against a general principle of Scripture, and the two major principles here are love and justice. Is the power inequity (in ancient culture) a justice issue?<br \/>\nInconclusive Criteria:<br \/>\n#14: Basis in theological analogy. A component of a text may be transcultural if its basis is rooted in the character of God or Christ through theological analogy.<br \/>\n#15: Contextual comparisons. A text or a component in a text may be transcultural\/cultural if other elements in the context are transcultural\/cultural.<br \/>\n#16: Appeal to the Old Testament. A practice in the NT may be transcultural if it appeals to the Old Testament in support. Thus, continuity between the testaments might indicate transcultural. But, his view is that continuity between the two testaments may or may not indicate transcultural, while the putting aside of an OT practice surely indicates a cultural element in the OT.<br \/>\nPersuasive Extrascriptural Criteria:<br \/>\n#17: Pragmatic basis between cultures: a component of a text may be cultural if the pragmatic basis for the instruction cannot be sustained from one culture to another. It becomes more transcultural if the pragmatic basis can be sustained.<br \/>\n#18: Scientific and social-scientific evidence: a component of a text may be culturally confined if it is contrary to present-day scientific evidence. If the two conflict, there is a good indicator the text is culturally confined.<br \/>\nHere is Deuteronomy 22, in its entirety, from the TNIV:<br \/>\nIf you see someone else\u2019s ox or sheep straying, do not ignore it but be sure to take it back to its owner.  If the owner does not live near you or if you do not know who owns it, take it home with you and keep it until the owner comes looking for it. Then give it back.  Do the same if you find someone\u2019s donkey or cloak or anything else they have lost. Do not ignore it.<br \/>\nIf you see someone\u2019s donkey or ox fallen on the road, do not ignore it. Help the owner get it to its feet.<br \/>\nA woman must not wear men\u2019s clothing, nor a man wear women\u2019s clothing, for the LORD your God detests anyone who does this.<br \/>\nIf you come across a bird\u2019s nest beside the road, either in a tree or on the ground, and the mother is sitting on the young or on the eggs, do not take the mother with the young.  You may take the young, but be sure to let the mother go, so that it may go well with you and you may have a long life.<br \/>\nWhen you build a new house, make a parapet around your roof so that you may not bring the guilt of bloodshed on your house if someone falls from the roof.<br \/>\nDo not plant two kinds of seed in your vineyard; if you do, not only the crops you plant but also the fruit of the vineyard will be defiled.a<br \/>\nDo not plow with an ox and a donkey yoked together.<br \/>\nDo not wear clothes of wool and linen woven together.<br \/>\nMake tassels on the four corners of the cloak you wear.<br \/>\nIf a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her, dislikes her and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, \u201cI married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,\u201d  then the young woman\u2019s father and mother shall bring to the town elders at the gate proof that she was a virgin.  Her father will say to the elders, \u201cI gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her.  Now he has slandered her and said, \u2018I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.\u2019 But here is the proof of my daughter\u2019s virginity.\u201d Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town,  and the elders shall take the man and punish him.  They shall fine him a hundred shekelsa of silver and give them to the young woman\u2019s father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.<br \/>\nIf, however, the charge is true and no proof of the young woman\u2019s virginity can be found,  she shall be brought to the door of her father\u2019s house and there the men of her town shall stone her to death. She has done an outrageous thing in Israel by being promiscuous while still in her father\u2019s house. You must purge the evil from among you.<br \/>\nIf a man is found sleeping with another man\u2019s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die. You must purge the evil from Israel.<br \/>\nIf a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her,  you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death\u2014the young woman because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man\u2019s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.<br \/>\nBut if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die.  Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor,  for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed, there was no one to rescue her.<br \/>\nIf a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered,  he shall pay her father fifty shekelsb of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>This post will put together William Webb&#8217;s 18 criteria but will begin with a few of my conclusions about the redemptive trend. You might want to print this out for future use. My suggestion is that you use a set of Bible verses, and I&#8217;ll include one set (Deut 22), and ask people why they&hellip;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":298,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[15,17],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1842","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-books","category-missional"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v23.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Thoughts on Redemptive Trend - Jesus Creed<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Thoughts on Redemptive Trend - Jesus Creed\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"This post will put together William Webb&#8217;s 18 criteria but will begin with a few of my conclusions about the redemptive trend. 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My suggestion is that you use a set of Bible verses, and I&#8217;ll include one set (Deut 22), and ask people why they&hellip;","og_url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html","og_site_name":"Jesus Creed","article_published_time":"2007-02-01T02:30:43+00:00","author":"xscot mcknight","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html","name":"Thoughts on Redemptive Trend - Jesus Creed","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/#website"},"datePublished":"2007-02-01T02:30:43+00:00","dateModified":"2007-02-01T02:30:43+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/9c0db2eaf4d047d76276f907b62843f0"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/2007\/02\/thoughts-on-redemptive-trend.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Thoughts on Redemptive Trend"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/","name":"Jesus Creed","description":"Scot McKnight on Jesus and orthodox faith for today","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/9c0db2eaf4d047d76276f907b62843f0","name":"xscot mcknight","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/1f0\/1f0cb0f88d1f99f6e05597a2de7f1949x96.jpg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/1f0\/1f0cb0f88d1f99f6e05597a2de7f1949x96.jpg","caption":"xscot mcknight"},"url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/author\/xscot-mcknight"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1842","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/298"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1842"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1842\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1842"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1842"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/jesuscreed\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1842"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}