{"id":1273,"date":"2010-12-02T15:44:18","date_gmt":"2010-12-02T15:44:18","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/bibleandculture\/2010\/12\/recently-heard-on-facebook--a-conversation-between-lawson-stone-and-ben-witherington-on-the-bible.html"},"modified":"2010-12-02T15:44:18","modified_gmt":"2010-12-02T15:44:18","slug":"recently-heard-on-facebook-a-conversation-between-lawson-stone-and-ben-witherington-on-the-bible","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/2010\/12\/recently-heard-on-facebook-a-conversation-between-lawson-stone-and-ben-witherington-on-the-bible.html","title":{"rendered":"Recently Heard on Facebook— A Conversation between Lawson Stone and Ben Witherington on the Bible, Christians, and Violence"},"content":{"rendered":"

\"love.jpg\"<\/a><\/span>
(Disclaimer—- This conversation between my friend and OT colleague Lawson Stone and me was strictly off the cuff chatting, not refined and carefully edited discourse.  Caveat emptor)<\/p>\n

\"\"<\/p>\n

Stone: Puzzling, as I often do, over alternatives to the
\nusual approaches to warfare and violence in the OT.  <\/span>Our modern notions of non-combatants,
\ncollateral damage, etc. complicate the moral picture considerably. In a way,
\nthis involves returning to some things I was working on almost 20 years ago!<\/b><\/p>\n

Witherington:   <\/span>As my Granny used to say, don’t complexify
\nthangs. Jesus said no violence, and so did Paul.<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/span><\/p>\n

Lawson Stone<\/a> ?… And Marcion,
\ntoo, I suppose. In general, I have found “granny” solutions and
\nproof-texting unhelpful in my work with these texts. Maybe we had different
\nkinds of grannies. Mine was a terror, straight out of a Flannery O’Connor
\nstory. Sort of ruined me for home-spun cliches.<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/span><\/p>\n

<\/span>Ben Witherington<\/a>
\n  <\/span>Pacificism is no cliche Lawson,
\nthough, I’ll grant you my granny was full of them. The real theological issue
\nhere is does one have an adequate theology of progressive revelation? If so,
\nthose OT conundrums are less confounding.<\/b><\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/span><\/p>\n

Lawson Stone<\/a> <\/span><\/p>\n

I’d hope you would assume that your colleague sort of
\nalready knew about progressive revelation. \ud83d\ude09 But I regard the intentions of
\nthe inspired authors as still divine revelation, and are the theology of the
\ntext, and no amount of progres…sion simply negates those inspired intentions
\nor consigns them, dispensationlist-style, to the dust-bin. So getting from the
\nOT here to the NT there while fully respecting the aims of the sacred writers
\nstill requires more hard work than Granny knew or most pacifistic hermeneutic
\nwill acknowledge.  <\/span>Actually my question
\nis not pacifism at all. It’s the Bible. We have a mass of material in the OT
\nthat portrays and assumes God as a Warrior just as thoroughly as he is
\nportrayed as Redeemer and Father. We also have a mass of material in the OT in
\nwhich obedience to God is framed in terms of divinely commissioned battle.
\nWhether one is a pacifist, just-war theorist, or “War as the Lesser Evil
\nIn Certain Rare Cirumstances” person, we still have to figure out how to
\npreach and teach the Word of God from these texts. It’s not as if they are like
\nthe dietary laws or animal sacrifice. The Divine Warrior motif figures in
\nRevelation as well, and the war heroes of Judges are commended as heroes of
\nfaith precisely for their war-deeds in Hebrews 11. So my question isn’t whether
\nwe are pacifists or war-mongers. The question is how are we teach and preach
\nfaithfully, substantively and profoundly from these texts, which are close to
\nthe center of the OT and not easily segregated from the rest of its revelation
\nor dismissed by appeals to progressive revelation. If in fact the end and goal
\nof history is Jesus on a war-horse with a two-edged sword, “clothed in a
\nraiment soaked in blood” (Isaiah) then progressive revelation might
\nsuggest the Divine Warrior tradition must continue to function in our theology.
\nSo the question is, how? That’s what is not answered by the easy cliches and
\n“WWJD” type responses.<\/b><\/p>\n

Ben Witherington<\/a>
\nGotcha… and that’s a good question. My answer would be that the God is a
\nwarrior stuff is less problematic, as the NT also says, leave justice and
\njudgment in the hands of God. Its a question of a different order to ask how to
\npreach texts where God’s people are called to practice the harem. I like what
\nPeter Craigie in his little book on the subject says.  <\/span>Lawson it seems to me we have to take
\nseriously what Hebrews 1 says— namely that the revelation to the OT saints
\nwas partial and piecemeal, not a full revelation of God’s truth or will. And
\nmore to the point as Jesus says, it was to some extent given the way it was due
\nto the hardness of the hearts of the Israelites.<\/b><\/p>\n

Lawson
\nStone<\/a> <\/b><\/p>\n

Ben-I think that’s pushing Hebrews 1 way farther than it
\nwants to go. And “partial” does not mean “wrong.” Also, I
\ndoubt seriously Hebrews 1 intends the pejorative sense carried by
\n“piecemeal.” The OT certainly is not. The OT is at least 2…000
\nyears of a God relentlessly honoring his original purpose in creation,
\ntirelessly engaging a lost humanity, unfailingly keeping his promises,
\nrepeatedly reminding his people of his purpose and character, and frequently
\nasserting justice in space-and-time, typically through the instrumentality of
\nhuman institutions of coercion such as government and warfare. So that specific
\nuse of Hebrews 1 does not match the reality of the actual text of the Bible.
\nWhen an interpretation of a single phrase fails to match the reality of which
\nit speaks, I usually hunt for another interpretation.<\/p>\n

<\/b><\/p>\n

Also, the hardness of heart saying is addressed to one
\nlaw, the permission on divorce, and it was more directed to Jesus’ questioners
\nthan to the OT-note the use of “you\/your” 3 times in Jesus’
\nstatement. He’s talking more about his questioners than he is the OT. So I do
\nnot see there a generalization that we can invoke whenever we are bothered
\nabout some feature of the OT. Also, “hard of heart” does not describe
\nthe authors of the OT, whom I’d rather call “inspired by the Holly
\nSpirit.” Was Isaiah hard of heart? Was Jeremiah? Was David? In actually
\nreading through the texts of the OT closely, that dog just won’t hunt. Again,
\nit’s a convenient generalization that turns out to be unhelpful to the
\nexpositor or commentator trying to hew closely to the grammatical-historical
\nsense of the text.
\nLastly, I can’t help but notice that in the end, war will cease because the
\nLamb will go forth to war and destroy his enemies, not because suddenly
\nreconciliation got popular. So the warrior themes must be more than a
\nconcession to heart-hardness. I’m not saying I know the answer, but I think we
\nsometimes use these generalizations to turn away from the texts and the
\ndisturbing realities they deal with. <\/b><\/p>\n

The ultimate ethical solutions
\nare not as problematic as the continuous, authoritative pastoral and theological
\nexposition of the texts in detail. But also, I don’t agree with you that God
\nhas told us to leave justice to him. The context yo…u cite specifically deals
\nwith personal vengeance, which indeed we should leave with God. But God
\ncommands us throughout scripture to work for just communities, to
\n“do\/implement justice.” God enjoins judges and rulers to implement
\njustice, which legitimates force and puts the responsibility squarely upon
\nGod’s servants for figuring out how force, coercion, may be used in accordance
\nwith godliness to protect the weak and steward the resources of the earth
\nappropriately. And is the responsibility to work for justice, protect the weak,
\nand steward the creation only applicable within our own
\n“nation-state?” I don’t find in scripture an ecclesiology that says
\nto abandon the structures of governance and enforcing justice. So if Christians
\ncan be police officers or politicians, or doctors or judges, then they do use
\nforce, coercion. If one believes in government provided health-care and basic
\nincome guarantees, one believes in coercion. Violence and war are just the most
\nconspicuous forms of coercion. So God as Warrior, and God as the leader of his
\nfaithful warriors, remains more than a mere type, but something other than the
\nstereotypes most Christian toss around (like the herem allusion, which you know
\nis not just “kill them all”).<\/b><\/p>\n

*Well brother I’ll give you the last word if you want.
\nI’m totally out of ideas!<\/b><\/p>\n


<\/a><\/b><\/p>\n

Ben Witherington<\/a>
\nWow… that’s a mouth full. I think we should have a fuller conversation about
\nthis in more than 125 characters. But Lawson I think it is clear enough that
\nthere is an obsolescence factor involved in various things OTmental. For
\nexample, I would say various of the imprecatory psalms are a true revelation of
\nthe human heart, not the divine character. 
\n<\/span>One more thing. The use of power is not the same as the use of violence.
\nAnd the use of force is not the same as the use of violence to harm or kill
\nanother human being. The instructions in the NT about governmental officials
\nare always …about ‘them’ as opposed to us, who are supposed to submit to
\ntheir authority. That’s a very different matter than signing to be soldiers or
\neven tax police. I don’t think Christians are called to do that. I think we are
\nsupposed to do something very different— mirror the values of the kingdom
\ncome where the swords are beat into plowshares and we study war no more.<\/b><\/p>\n

Lawson
\nStone<\/a> Hey you get more than 125 characters on Facebook! I actually would
\nnot call “fulfillment” “obsolescence.” In general, these
\ncategories that are part of the legacy of post-reformation scholasticism, such
\nas the generalization of hardness of heart to the entire OT revelation, have
\nnot been helpful to me but seem to flatten the text. Rather than struggle with
\nthe enduring cruces, they treat them like spots on the window, merely to be
\nwiped off.<\/b><\/p>\n

Actually we disagree on the power\/force issue. All power
\nto coerce derives from the ability to compel someone against their will by the
\nability to credibly threaten their access to what is needed to live. You can
\ndeny them their livelihood …by imprisoning them, but even imprisonment
\nassumes the ability to back up confinement with lethal force. Even fines and
\ntaxation ultimately still involve separating someone from the vital support of
\ntheir life. It’s a continuum, not a contrast. Again, your rosy citation of the
\nIsaiah passage is a peroration not a real argument. Maybe that text was given
\nbecause of hardness of heart? Maybe that text was one that was obsolesced by
\nthe NT when Jesus in fact will hurl the wicked forever into the lake of fire?
\nSounds to me like God will not be hammering his sword into a plowshare.<\/b><\/p>\n


<\/a><\/b><\/p>\n

Ben Witherington<\/a>
\nLawson do you really think we will be fighting wars in the new heaven and new
\nearth? Come on now…. In that age not only will there be no war, there will be
\nno death!!! My point is this. We are in the eschatological age, and we as
\nChristians are meant to bear witness to the values of the final eternal state
\nof affairs, not simply deal with business as usual, or the world as it is. We
\nare not supposed to be conformed to the values of this world. Period.<\/b><\/p>\n

I would love more conversation too, but tempus fugit as
\nthey say. One issue I think we clearly do disagree on is the force vs. violence
\nissue, and I would enjoy more conversation on that. I don’t see them on a continuum.
\nWh…en I have to push my office door a little harder to open it, I have used
\nforce but I have neither harmed the door, nor done violence to it. And I would
\nsay the same applies when God is using the subtle solvent of grace and his
\nSpirit on us. It is certainly a force to be reckoned with, but not something
\nthat harms or does violence to me.<\/b><\/p>\n


<\/a><\/b><\/p>\n

Lawson
\nStone<\/a> <\/b><\/p>\n

Hi Ben-Thanks again for sharing your thoughts, informed
\nby a lifetime of serious engagement with Christian thought on many levels. I do
\nthink that there is a world of difference between forcing an inanimate object
\nand overruling the will of… a human being created in the divine image, making
\nthem do what they really do not want to do. God has re-gifted humanity with a
\nfreedom to respond to his light via prevenient grace, but grace is resistible.
\nThe Spirit does not compel or coerce us, but woos and entices us, helps us see
\nclearly what is truly best for our own happiness and holiness. I do not believe
\nGod’s interaction with the soul–the illustration you use– is coercion or
\n“forcing” us. But in pointing out the dangers of divine judgment and
\nhell, God is still showing us the rotten fruit of our own choices and using
\nthose consequences to reason with us. In the end, though, God will use force to
\neliminate oppression and injustice and a number of other evils from his
\ncreation when he judges the wicked. So destructive force-hurling them into a
\nlake of fire-must not be ultimately incompatible with holy love, since will use
\nexactly that kind of force in the end. In your last sentence you shift the way
\nyou use the word “force.” “A force” is any impartation of
\nenergy, but when I ‘force” a person, I have overwhelmed their contrary wishes
\nvia superior physical force or threats to life or livelihood. That’s a kind of
\ncoercion. Returning to an earlier point: do you really believe a Christian
\ncannot volunteer for military service or police service? Or for that matter,
\nwould you call on Christians to practice universal civil disobedience in
\nnations with compulsory universal military service?<\/b><\/p>\n


<\/a><\/b><\/p>\n

Ben Witherington<\/a>
\n<\/b><\/p>\n

Lawson I realize other equally sincere Christians will
\ndisagree, but yes I do not think Christians should either serve in the miltary
\nor as police. I don’t think Rom. 13 at all suggests otherwise, since we are
\ntalking about a pagan governme…nt entertwined with pagan religion which a
\nChristian couldn’t in good conscience participate in. I think Paul and Jesus
\nboth call us to non-violence, to following the earthly example of Christ
\nhimself. We are not called to follow the example of God the Father in the OT.
\nWe are called to be disciples of Jesus and follow his earthly example. I agree
\nwith you that love is not inconsistent with discipline or even judgment in the
\ncharacter of God. God however is an omniscient being. We are not. We have an
\ninfinite capacity to get the justice issues wrong. I have sometimes thought
\nperhaps its alright for Christians to be chaplains or medics in the military,
\nbut I am not entirely sure even about that. What I think is that we are called
\nto be a people set apart from such worldly things. Killing as a human behavior
\nis a result of the Fall (see Cain and Abel). It’s not God’s highest and best
\nfor us, and its not following Christ’s earthly example.<\/b><\/p>\n

 <\/b><\/p>\n

Lawson
\nStone<\/a> <\/b><\/p>\n

Ben-Thanks for making your view on this clear, and
\nespecially for acknowledging that people who see this differently are equally
\nsincere. I’d hope you’d also agree, equally competent and earnest readers of
\nscripture, which I think you do me…an here. You certainly have my great
\nrespect and appreciation for your faith, the courageous stands you take for the
\ngospel in the paganized world of scholarship, and for your friendship. While I
\nagree that God’s perfect wisdom authorizes his use of force, and our lack of
\nwisdom puts a question mark over ours, my basic point of principle, that
\n“violent” force is not incompatible with holy love still stands. And
\nI respect and appreciate your strong convictions about police, even though my
\nown reading of the Bible leads me to think humans have an obligation with fear
\nand trembling, to use the power to take life or deprive persons of their
\nliberty or property in the maintenance of that just society. Such cannot be
\nundertaken lightly, but in the fear of God and with as many checks and
\ncorrectives as possible, hence the OT so strongly cautions judges about
\nimpartiality. I do think Christians can serve their communities and serve the
\nkingdom by being police officers and soldiers. But I do respect you and your
\nviews, and I’m grateful for this serious and, for me at least, fruitful
\nconversation. I feel I know you more deeply, which is a gain for me. I am
\nsatisfied with the conversation and so will likely not post any more for now
\nunless I think of something that I can’t resist saying! Thanks again for the
\ngift of godly conference!<\/b><\/p>\n

 <\/b><\/p>\n

Ben Witherington<\/a>
\n<\/b><\/p>\n

Great! A good chat. I will just add a final p.s. <\/p>\n

I think our ways of thinking about this are actually clarified the less
\nChristian the larger culture really becomes. By this I mean, Christians are
\nalways called to be in the world, but not… of the world, and in this I think
\nthe Amish fail, as they simply withdraw from engagement with the world by and
\nlarge. I think Christians are called to provide a witness as to an alternative
\nKing, an alternative Kingdom, a peacable one, right here and now and not just
\nat the eschaton, bringing forward the values of that new earth, here and now,
\nand foreshadowing it. In short, for the Christian, there are plenty of things
\nworth dying for and giving your life for, but nothing worth killing for, for
\nlife is of sacred worth, and we are called to save it, even from itself.<\/b><\/p>\n

And as Forest Gump says, ‘Dat’s all I got to say bout
\ndat’.<\/b><\/p>\n

 <\/b><\/p>\n

 <\/span><\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n

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(Disclaimer—- This conversation between my friend and OT colleague Lawson Stone and me was strictly off the cuff chatting, not refined and carefully edited discourse.  Caveat emptor) Stone: Puzzling, as I often do, over alternatives to the usual approaches to warfare and violence in the OT.  Our modern notions of non-combatants, collateral damage, etc. complicate…<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":199,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1273","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry"],"yoast_head":"\nRecently Heard on Facebook- A Conversation between Lawson Stone and Ben Witherington on the Bible, Christians, and Violence - The Bible and Culture<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/2010\/12\/recently-heard-on-facebook-a-conversation-between-lawson-stone-and-ben-witherington-on-the-bible.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Recently Heard on Facebook- A Conversation between Lawson Stone and Ben Witherington on the Bible, Christians, and Violence - 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A graduate of UNC, Chapel Hill, he went on to receive the M.Div. degree from Gordon-Conwell Theological Seminary and a Ph.D. from the University of Durham in England. He is now considered one of the top evangelical scholars in the world, and is an elected member of the prestigious SNTS, a society dedicated to New Testament studies. Witherington has also taught at Ashland Theological Seminary, Vanderbilt University, Duke Divinity School and Gordon-Conwell. A popular lecturer, Witherington has presented seminars for churches, colleges and biblical meetings not only in the United States but also in England, Estonia, Russia, Europe, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Australia. He has also led tours to Italy, Greece, Turkey, Israel, Jordan, and Egypt. Witherington has written over thirty books, including The Jesus Quest and The Paul Quest, both of which were selected as top biblical studies works by Christianity Today. He also writes for many church and scholarly publications, and is a frequent contributor to the Beliefnet website. Along with many interviews on radio networks across the country, Witherington has been seen on the History Channel, NBC, ABC, CBS, CNN, The Discovery Channel, A&E, and the PAX Network.","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/author\/bwitherington"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1273","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/199"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1273"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1273\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1273"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1273"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/bibleandculture\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1273"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}