{"id":966,"date":"2011-05-09T18:40:34","date_gmt":"2011-05-09T22:40:34","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/apagansblog\/?p=966"},"modified":"2011-05-09T18:41:58","modified_gmt":"2011-05-09T22:41:58","slug":"responding-to-an-atheist%e2%80%99s-challenge-do-the-gods-exist","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2011\/05\/responding-to-an-atheist%e2%80%99s-challenge-do-the-gods-exist.html","title":{"rendered":"Responding to an atheist\u2019s challenge: Do the Gods exist?"},"content":{"rendered":"

Ryan Benson when closing his blog over at Patheo<\/a>s<\/em> sent a challenge out to his religious readers: \u201cconvince me God exists.\u201d Benson is an atheist. Star, who is doing wonderful work for us Pagans at Patheos,<\/em> suggested Pagans respond, and I sent one in<\/a>. Afterwards I thought it might have insights worth sharing on a broader scale than some atheist\u2019s blog.\u00a0 In the process I have also expanded it a little.<\/p>\n

Why demand a proof?<\/strong><\/p>\n

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, especially since a number of religions make similar claims in this respect.\u00a0 Many forms of Christianity and Islam make similar demands while denying to the others in this crowd legitimacy.\u00a0 Proving that God exists is a reasonable question to ask those whose religion claims that in the absence of belief the unbeliever is injured in some way. Usually for \u2018eternity.\u2019\u00a0 Further, if such a God existed, and the penalty for getting it wrong were as severe as His followers claim it to be, and He is not a demon, He would make it easy for His existence to be proven.\u00a0 Really easy.<\/p>\n

I think it safe to say that no religion making such claims has succeeded in backing them up through the force of their arguments or the evidence they amass.\u00a0 This is why their followers so quickly turn to the sword and the mob when they have the power.\u00a0 Here the atheists are on very good ground, and are doing all of us a service by asking these people to back up their claim.\u00a0 They have not and can not.<\/p>\n

But not every religion believes in such a God, and some, including my own Pagan one, suggest that a wide variety of spiritual paths (broadly defined) exists, and each constitutes but one thread in a magnificent tapestry that exceeds them all. No religion adequately expresses the more-than-human in all the ways human beings can express and honor it.<\/p>\n

From such a perspective as this whether or not a person is atheistic or believes in one deity or another is not particularly significant. What is<\/em> significant is whether a person is in touch with his or her heart, and acts on it.\u00a0 How far can a person expand their sense of self to include others through love or care or empathy or compassion.<\/p>\n

In my personal experience these qualities seem most fundamental to the spiritual\/conscious dimension of All That Is. The packaging a given understanding of these qualities is wrapped in is not important.\u00a0 The qualities are. From this perspective many atheists are in better harmony with All-that-is than many theists. <\/strong><\/p>\n

A Pagan Perspective<\/strong><\/p>\n

From within a Pagan perspective on the one hand the ultimate is beyond human conception, and so in a complete sense, no one<\/em> can \u201cbelieve in God\/the Gods,\u201d in the sense of knowing what reality lies behind these words.\u00a0 We can believe that mystery exists, and that we call it God or the Gods, depending on how we have experienced it.\u00a0 We can be brought to tears by beauty without really knowing what it is.\u00a0 We can feel the meaning inherent within nature or celebrations of natural cycles, but ultimately there too is mystery.<\/p>\n

We get only a small view, Even if we encounter a deity, as I have. I know<\/em> that a particular deity or manifestation of a deity exists, but I also know I have a very incomplete picture of the superhuman.<\/p>\n

From inquiry with others it seems that many Pagans who, like myself, have encountered a deity, say we experience them as more real <\/em>than we are ourselves.\u00a0 I think this is a meaningful clue as to what they are and what we are, but it certainly does not give me a clear idea of what a deity is.\u00a0 For those who have not experienced such deities this description likely sounds absurd.\u00a0 It would to me as well if I hadn\u2019t had the experience because for most of us all of the time our experience defines reality.\u00a0 But that does not change the experiences of those who have powerfully encountered deities, for whatever reason.<\/p>\n

But many Pagans have not had such experiences, and still rightly regard themselves as Pagans. For a while I wondered what that meant \u2013 why some of us and not others? – but not so much any more.\u00a0 Ultimately I do not think it matters a lot, and to the degree it does matter, those who are Pagans without having had sich an experience might be less spiritually \u201cneedy.\u201d\u00a0 Again, we encounter mystery.<\/p>\n

To my mind those who have not had a up-close-and-personal encounter with a deity are not spiritually behind those who have. A great many such Pagans (and more than a few \u2018atheists\u2019) experience the world as intrinsically beautiful, mysterious, and valuable.\u00a0 They are fulfilled when immersed within it and experience it as in some sense sacred.\u00a0 The world and its basic rhythms open their hearts and fill them with gratitude for its beauty.\u00a0 The pain and suffering within life are redeemed within a larger context of meaning. (I would call this another way to experience the \u201cmore real.\u201d)\u00a0 From a Pagan perspective this seems enough.<\/p>\n

Some Pagans call their position with respect to all this panentheism, others pantheism, and some identify as atheists. Among atheists there are those who call themselves pantheists, treating the \u201ctheism\u201d as a simple metaphor for the world\u2019s beauty and intrinsic excellence. Again, what I think\u00a0 matters is not the abstract belief but the personal relationship.<\/p>\n

A recent study if American scientists sheds some light on this issue.\u00a0 Science Daily<\/em> reports that over 20% of atheistic scientists queried\u00a0report they are \u201cspiritual.\u201d<\/a> The article reports<\/p>\n

“\u2019Our results show that scientists hold religion and spirituality as being qualitatively different kinds of constructs,\u2019 said Elaine Howard Ecklund, assistant professor of sociology at Rice and lead author of the study. \u2018These spiritual atheist scientists are seeking a core sense of truth through spirituality \u2013 one that is generated by and consistent with the work they do as scientists.\u2019\u201d<\/p>\n

Science Daily <\/em>quoted Elizabeth Long as observing \u201c\u2019the terms scientists most used to describe religion included “organized, communal, unified and collective.\u2019 The set of terms used to describe spirituality include \u2018individual, personal and personally constructed.\u2019” All 275 respondents who used these terms identified the collective terms with religion and the individual terms with spirituality.<\/p>\n

The distinction between this view and some forms of Paganism is getting thin. \u00a0If I had to define a distinction, I would suggest it is that Pagans have experienced a degree of reciprocity between themselves and Nature, whether or not they have encountered deities. \u00a0But even here I imagine there are some for whom beauty and mystery are enough. \u00a0But aren’t we a religion? \u00a0Yes and no. \u00a0We are religious in the sense of doing some things together as a community, whether it be an occasional Sabbat or meeting more often in covens, groves, or other small groups.\u00a0 But we rarely if ever focus on getting a unity of belief and we rarely have anything like a permanent organization. \u00a0Most have nothing resembling a professional group of priests and priestesses. \u00a0Other groups seem equally far from any strong religious model, such as the Quakers, so we are not alone in this respect.\u00a0 But we are far from what most people in America think of as a religion when examined in detail.<\/p>\n

From a Pagan perspective everything around us, including ourselves, are immersed within\/emanations from the Ultimate.\u00a0 Therefore what matters is not our theological framework, not the labels we put on things, not even the groups with which we work, but the degree to which we can embrace \u00a0what is around us as intrinsically worthy of respect\/care\/love and awe.<\/p>\n

Within each basic religious and philosophical perspective there are those who fail to enlarge their hearts or expand their selves beyond the most narrow, and there are those who do. Within each tradition, including those that are secular, there are ways to expand one\u2019s heart beyond its current size and ways to justify remaining unchanged. So from the perspective of my own spiritual path, whether you believe in some deity or not is not very important, but the quality of your heart is very much so.<\/p>\n

 <\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Ryan Benson when closing his blog over at Patheos sent a challenge out to his religious readers: \u201cconvince me God exists.\u201d Benson is an atheist. Star, who is doing wonderful work for us Pagans at Patheos, suggested Pagans respond, and I sent one in. 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