{"id":322,"date":"2009-07-29T12:07:00","date_gmt":"2009-07-29T12:07:00","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/blog.beliefnet.com\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html"},"modified":"2009-07-29T12:07:00","modified_gmt":"2009-07-29T12:07:00","slug":"sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html","title":{"rendered":"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><!--StartFragment--><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">A number of people have suggested I<br \/>\nwas unfair to Sam Harris in criticizing his attack on Frances Collins.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Below I reprint his <a href=\"http:\/\/www.nytimes.com\/2009\/07\/27\/opinion\/27harris.html\">column from the<br \/>\nNYT<\/a>, inserting at key points comments showing I am very far from being unfair.&nbsp; Towards the end we get into issues more interesting than that, issues growing out of Harris&#8217;s attack on Collins.<br \/>\n<\/span><\/p>\n<p><!--EndFragment--><\/p>\n<p><!--more--><\/p>\n<p><!--StartFragment--><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Harris writes:<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">PRESIDENT OBAMA has nominated<br \/>\nFrancis Collins to be the next director of the National Institutes of Health.<br \/>\nIt would seem a brilliant choice. Dr. Collins&#8217;s credentials are impeccable: he<br \/>\nis a physical chemist, a medical geneticist and the former head of the Human<br \/>\nGenome Project. He is also, by his own account, living proof that there is no<br \/>\nconflict between science and religion. In 2006, he published &#8220;The Language of<br \/>\nGod,&#8221; in which he claimed to demonstrate &#8220;a consistent and profoundly<br \/>\nsatisfying harmony&#8221; between 21st-century science and evangelical Christianity.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Dr. Collins is regularly praised by<br \/>\nsecular scientists for what he is not: he is not a &#8220;young earth creationist,&#8221;<br \/>\nnor is he a proponent of &#8220;intelligent design.&#8221; Given the state of the evidence<br \/>\nfor evolution, these are both very good things for a scientist not to be. <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Harris uses a stealth debating<br \/>\npoint here to undermine Collins.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>He grants Collins is not an idiot.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>But . . .<br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">But as director of the institutes, Dr.<br \/>\nCollins will have more responsibility for biomedical and health-related<br \/>\nresearch than any person on earth, controlling an annual budget of more than<br \/>\n$30 billion. He will also be one of the foremost representatives of science in<br \/>\nthe United States. For this reason, it is important that we understand Dr.<br \/>\nCollins and his faith as they relate to scientific inquiry. <\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">What follows are a series of slides,<br \/>\npresented in order, from a lecture on science and belief that Dr. Collins gave<br \/>\nat the University of California, Berkeley, in 2008:<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">I will assume Harris is being<br \/>\naccurate regarding the content of the slides.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>He is not George Will or Bill Kristol.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>In my view Harris&#8217;s sins are not those<br \/>\nof dishonesty and manipulation, but of overweening self-righteousness.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Slide 1: &#8220;Almighty God, who is not<br \/>\nlimited in space or time, created a universe 13.7 billion years ago with its<br \/>\nparameters precisely tuned to allow the development of complexity over long<br \/>\nperiods of time.&#8221;<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">This may or may not be true, but<br \/>\nsince it deals with the origin of things, is of little relevance to<br \/>\ninvestigating what happened afterwards, as Collins&#8217; own work demonstrates.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Slide 2: &#8220;God&#8217;s plan included the<br \/>\nmechanism of evolution to create the marvelous diversity of living things on<br \/>\nour planet. Most especially, that creative plan included human beings.&#8221;<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Perhaps Harris has the<br \/>\ntotalitarian notion that not only must we agree with the physical evidence &#8211;<br \/>\nevolution &#8211; but we must agree with interpretations of the evidence that<br \/>\nempirical findings have so far been unable to shed any light on<br \/>\nwhatsoever.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>If so this is a<br \/>\ndisturbing comment on Harris, not Collins.&nbsp; Christianity has strong totalitarian strains, though Collins appears free from them.&nbsp; Atheism apparently does as well.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Slide 3: &#8220;After evolution had<br \/>\nprepared a sufficiently advanced &#8216;house&#8217; (the human brain), God gifted humanity<br \/>\nwith the knowledge of good and evil (the moral law), with free will, and with<br \/>\nan immortal soul.&#8221; <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Free will and immortal soul are<br \/>\nthings science has no way of studying.<span>&nbsp;&nbsp; <\/span>It is unclear how even to describe a free will.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>If it cannot be formulated in a testable<br \/>\nproposition, it is not amenable to scientific investigation.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>SO LONG AS this is not used to suppress<br \/>\nscientific investigation it is difficult to see why it matters.<span>&nbsp;&nbsp; <\/span><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Is there a moral law? Harris<br \/>\nwould seem to think not.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>I do &#8211;<br \/>\nbut do not need a Christian God to find it.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Even Robert Axelrod&#8217;s study of the iterated prisoners<br \/>\ndilemma and computer strategies to win it can be used to argue for a moral<br \/>\nlaw.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>See his <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/EVOLUTION-COOPERATION-Softcover-Cooperation-Self-Seeking\/dp\/B0017159GG\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1248881899&amp;sr=8-1\"><i>The Evolution of<br \/>\nCooperation<\/i><\/a>. <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><span>&nbsp;<\/span>Again, a red herring.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Slide 4: &#8220;We humans used our free<br \/>\nwill to break the moral law, leading to our estrangement from God. For<br \/>\nChristians, Jesus is the solution to that estrangement.&#8221;<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Hard to see how this bears on<br \/>\nresearch &#8211; unless Harris demands fealty to his views on things other than<br \/>\nscience &#8211; which he pretty obviously does.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Slide 5: &#8220;If the moral law is just a<br \/>\nside effect of evolution, then there is no such thing as good or evil. It&#8217;s all<br \/>\nan illusion. We&#8217;ve been hoodwinked. Are any of us, especially the strong<br \/>\natheists, really prepared to live our lives within that worldview?<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">A rhetorical point on Collins&#8217;<br \/>\npart.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>I do not see for a minute<br \/>\nhow it is relevant to his work as a scientist &#8211; beyond perhaps making him a<br \/>\nmore ethical scientist.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>I like<br \/>\nthat idea.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Why should Dr. Collins&#8217;s beliefs be<br \/>\nof concern?<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">There is an epidemic of scientific<br \/>\nignorance in the United States. This isn&#8217;t surprising, as very few scientific<br \/>\ntruths are self-evident, and many are counterintuitive. It is by no means<br \/>\nobvious that empty space has structure or that we share a common ancestor with<br \/>\nboth the housefly and the banana. It can be difficult to think like a<br \/>\nscientist. But few things make thinking like a scientist more difficult than<br \/>\nreligion.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Collins would apparently agree<br \/>\nwith all these statements &#8211; so why is Harris making them except to suggest that<br \/>\nnaming Collins to this position somehow leads to undermining these<br \/>\npropositions.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>On could as easily argue that naming a believing Christian to this post,<br \/>\none who agrees with these propositions, helps undermine the authority of those<br \/>\nwho argue that these tenets of modern science must be rejected to preserve<br \/>\none&#8217;s Christian faith.<b><span>&nbsp; <\/span><\/b><\/span><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">The entire paragraph<br \/>\nis either irrelevant or misleading.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span><\/span><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Dr. Collins has written that science<br \/>\nmakes belief in God &#8220;intensely plausible&#8221; &#8212; the Big Bang, the fine-tuning of<br \/>\nnature&#8217;s constants, the emergence of complex life, the effectiveness of<br \/>\nmathematics, all suggest the existence of a &#8220;loving, logical and consistent&#8221;<br \/>\nGod.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">But when challenged with alternative<br \/>\naccounts of these phenomena &#8212; or with evidence that suggests that God might be<br \/>\nunloving, illogical, inconsistent or, indeed, absent &#8212; Dr. Collins will say<br \/>\nthat God stands outside of Nature, and thus science cannot address the question<br \/>\nof his existence at all. <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">These statements are NOT in<br \/>\nconflict or tension.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>God is<br \/>\n&#8220;immensely plausible&#8221; but science can neither prove nor disprove the<br \/>\nissue.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>So?<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Similarly, Dr. Collins insists that<br \/>\nour moral intuitions attest to God&#8217;s existence, to his perfectly moral<br \/>\ncharacter and to his desire to have fellowship with every member of our<br \/>\nspecies. But when our moral intuitions recoil at the casual destruction of<br \/>\ninnocents by, say, a tidal wave or earthquake, Dr. Collins assures us that our<br \/>\ntime-bound notions of good and evil can&#8217;t be trusted and that God&#8217;s will is a<br \/>\nmystery.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><font>Even<\/font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><font> <\/font>if he does believe this, the<br \/>\ntwo propositions are not contradictory.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>Judging from what Collins is described as saying, the universe had to<br \/>\nevolve to a certain point to be ready for human souls.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>This involved the working out of<br \/>\nscientific laws and principles that were themselves NOT indicative of these<br \/>\nsouls.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>From a Pagan perspective<br \/>\nI&#8217;ve discussed this at length in <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Pagans-Christians-Personal-Spiritual-Experience\/dp\/1567182283\/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1248882467&amp;sr=1-1\"><i>Pagans and Christians<\/i><\/a>&nbsp;<br \/>\nas well as my book of dialogue with an evanglical Christian, <a href=\"http:\/\/www.amazon.com\/Beyond-Burning-Times-Christian-Dialogue\/dp\/0745952720\/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1248882467&amp;sr=1-2\">Beyond the Burning Times<\/a>.&nbsp;<br \/>\n<span>&nbsp; <\/span>To be very brief, if as<br \/>\nCollins says, God sets certain processes in motion that will in time generate<br \/>\nbodies able to hold souls, these processes will not be moral in the way a soul<br \/>\ncan be.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Since the bodies that hold<br \/>\nsouls will continue to depend on these processes to live, they will be subject<br \/>\nto these phenomena, sometimes to their regret.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Does God make it better in the end?<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Science cannot say.<span><\/span><b><span>&nbsp; <\/span><br \/><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Most scientists who study the human<br \/>\nmind are convinced that minds are the products of brains, and brains are the<br \/>\nproducts of evolution. Dr. Collins takes a different approach: he insists that<br \/>\nat some moment in the development of our species God inserted crucial<br \/>\ncomponents &#8212; including an immortal soul, free will, the moral law, spiritual<br \/>\nhunger, genuine altruism, etc. <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote><p><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">I disagree with Collins, but so<br \/>\nwhat?<span>&nbsp; <\/span>I also disagree with<br \/>\nHarris.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>In so far as we study<br \/>\nphysical reality these beliefs of Collins, Harris, and myself are irrelevant beyond<br \/>\nthe point at which they might suggest hypotheses that can be scientifically<br \/>\ninvestigated and our willingness to respect the results of those tests.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>But while Harris<br \/>\nseems to under play the fact, science has always consisted of people who<br \/>\ndisagree with one another but have a broad agreement as to the standards that a<br \/>\nscientific proposition should meet.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>Harris by contrast seem to think it&#8217;s nothing but a count pf heads<br \/>\n(&#8220;Most scientists&#8230;&#8221;)<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Heads count-<br \/>\nbut it&#8217;s a lot more complex than that.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">What made science in the modern<br \/>\nsense possible was the development of standards for testing claims about the<br \/>\nphysical world that people could agree with despite differing beliefs about<br \/>\nreligious matters.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>It has always<br \/>\nworked that way.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">As someone who believes that our<br \/>\nunderstanding of human nature can be derived from neuroscience, psychology,<br \/>\ncognitive science and behavioral economics, among others, I am troubled by Dr.<br \/>\nCollins&#8217;s line of thinking. I also believe it would seriously undercut fields<br \/>\nlike neuroscience and our growing understanding of the human mind. If we must<br \/>\nlook to religion to explain our moral sense, what should we make of the<br \/>\ndeficits of moral reasoning associated with conditions like frontal lobe<br \/>\nsyndrome and psychopathy? Are these disorders best addressed by theology?<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Actually Collins effectively<br \/>\nanswered this point earlier in Harris&#8217;s attack, if Harris would only try to<br \/>\nunderstand him.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Collins said the brain<br \/>\nwas necessary.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Defects in the<br \/>\nbrain would obviously account for some problems.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>It is not clear where to draw the line between physical problems with the brain and spiritual problems with the soul.&nbsp; So long as they cannot then scientific investigation is appropriate from Collins&#8217; perspective.&nbsp; <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">I believe what really is going on here is that Harris is trying to<br \/>\neliminate alternative approaches to a HYPOTHESIS he &#8220;believes&#8221; in that purely<br \/>\nphysical explanations can account for understanding human nature. <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">His is a hypothesis with<br \/>\ndifficulties because consciousness (awareness) is NOT physical, it is mental.&nbsp; Our definition of what is physical includes it being able to be measured. &nbsp;<br \/>\nAwareness can not be measured, but we can find physical phenomena that<br \/>\ncorrelate with awareness, and changes in physical conditions that correlate<br \/>\nwith reported changes in awareness.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>(Think of the old high scjhool brain teaser of being asked to prove that others are conscious.)&nbsp; <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Awareness is subjective, b<span><\/span>ut it manifests in the world.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>Several possibilities exist along with Collins and Harris&#8217;s.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Another is that matter\/energy is itself<br \/>\nconscious in some sense, and that consciousness in the human sense is an<br \/>\nemergent quality implicit in matter because all matter has interiority.<span>&nbsp; <\/span><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">I will happily grant I have no<br \/>\nvery firm idea what the truth may be and am annoyed with those who claim they know.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Dr. Collins has written that<br \/>\n&#8220;science offers no answers to the most pressing questions of human existence&#8221;<br \/>\nand that &#8220;the claims of atheistic materialism must be steadfastly resisted.&#8221; <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Seems sort of a mirror to Harris.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Substitute &#8220;religion&#8221; for &#8220;science&#8221; and &#8220;Christianity&#8221; for &#8220;atheistic materialism&#8221; and see what you find&#8230;<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">The issue of course is not<br \/>\nwhat Collins (or Harris for that matter) believes but does it cause him to falsify his data or suppress<br \/>\ninconvenient findings.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>The<br \/>\nevidence is that in Collins&#8217; case it has not.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>Harris is unable to mention even one example.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>But then, by taking his religion seriously, Collins is<br \/>\nguilty by definition.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><b><\/b><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">One can only hope that these<br \/>\nconvictions will not affect his judgment at the institutes of health. After<br \/>\nall, understanding human well-being at the level of the brain might very well<br \/>\noffer some &#8220;answers to the most pressing questions of human existence&#8221; &#8212;<br \/>\nquestions like, Why do we suffer? Or, indeed, is it possible to love one&#8217;s<br \/>\nneighbor as oneself? And wouldn&#8217;t any effort to explain human nature without<br \/>\nreference to a soul, and to explain morality without reference to God,<br \/>\nnecessarily constitute &#8220;atheistic materialism&#8221;? <br \/><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Let me go very slowly here.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Collins said: Once the brain (a physical<br \/>\nthing arrived at through evolution) was ready for it, a soul was inserted.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>Souls can not be measured or otherwise<br \/>\ndetected scientifically.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>If they<br \/>\nexist, they operate through the brain, and at this point there can be no<br \/>\ncontradiction between Harris &#8211; who would argue only brain structures matter,<br \/>\nand Collins, who would argue the soul operating through brain structures that<br \/>\nmake human beings possible, matter.<span>&nbsp;<br \/>\n<\/span>They are arguing about the existence of something to which science has<br \/>\nno way of studying because if it exists it is not measureable or predictable or<br \/>\nable to be experimented upon.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Given the logic of Harris&#8217;s<br \/>\nargument, there would only be a problem if Collins said that the soul altered<br \/>\nphysical reality in some way by violating known laws of matter.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>If it can operate through physical<br \/>\nreality only be obeying laws of matter, then there is no problem between them, because it can only be investigated that way.<span>&nbsp; <\/span>I happen to think the issues are more<br \/>\ncomplex, but between Collins and Harris there really does not seem to be a<br \/>\nproblem.<\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<\/blockquote>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><br \/><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\">Francis Collins is an accomplished<br \/>\nscientist and a man who is sincere in his beliefs. And that is precisely what<br \/>\nmakes me so uncomfortable about his nomination. Must we really entrust the<br \/>\nfuture of biomedical research in the United States to a man who sincerely<br \/>\nbelieves that a scientific understanding of human nature is impossible? <\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><font><span style=\"font-size: 10pt;font-family: Times\"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]-->&nbsp;<!--[endif]--><\/span><\/font><\/p>\n<p class=\"MsoNormal\"><!--[if !supportEmptyParas]--><font>&nbsp;<\/font><!--[endif]--><\/p>\n<p><!--EndFragment--><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A number of people have suggested I was unfair to Sam Harris in criticizing his attack on Frances Collins.&nbsp; Below I reprint his column from the NYT, inserting at key points comments showing I am very far from being unfair.&nbsp; Towards the end we get into issues more interesting than that, issues growing out of&hellip;<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":9,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"closed","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"footnotes":""},"categories":[111,12,108],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-322","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-current-events","category-science-and-technology","category-spirituality"],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is optimized with the Yoast SEO plugin v23.9 - https:\/\/yoast.com\/wordpress\/plugins\/seo\/ -->\n<title>Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined - A Pagan&#039;s Blog<\/title>\n<meta name=\"robots\" content=\"index, follow, max-snippet:-1, max-image-preview:large, max-video-preview:-1\" \/>\n<link rel=\"canonical\" href=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:locale\" content=\"en_US\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:type\" content=\"article\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:title\" content=\"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined - A Pagan&#039;s Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:description\" content=\"A number of people have suggested I was unfair to Sam Harris in criticizing his attack on Frances Collins.&nbsp; Below I reprint his column from the NYT, inserting at key points comments showing I am very far from being unfair.&nbsp; Towards the end we get into issues more interesting than that, issues growing out of&hellip;\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:url\" content=\"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html\" \/>\n<meta property=\"og:site_name\" content=\"A Pagan&#039;s Blog\" \/>\n<meta property=\"article:published_time\" content=\"2009-07-29T12:07:00+00:00\" \/>\n<meta name=\"author\" content=\"Gus diZerega\" \/>\n<meta name=\"twitter:card\" content=\"summary_large_image\" \/>\n<!-- \/ Yoast SEO plugin. -->","yoast_head_json":{"title":"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined - A Pagan&#039;s Blog","robots":{"index":"index","follow":"follow","max-snippet":"max-snippet:-1","max-image-preview":"max-image-preview:large","max-video-preview":"max-video-preview:-1"},"canonical":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html","og_locale":"en_US","og_type":"article","og_title":"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined - A Pagan&#039;s Blog","og_description":"A number of people have suggested I was unfair to Sam Harris in criticizing his attack on Frances Collins.&nbsp; Below I reprint his column from the NYT, inserting at key points comments showing I am very far from being unfair.&nbsp; Towards the end we get into issues more interesting than that, issues growing out of&hellip;","og_url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html","og_site_name":"A Pagan&#039;s Blog","article_published_time":"2009-07-29T12:07:00+00:00","author":"Gus diZerega","twitter_card":"summary_large_image","schema":{"@context":"https:\/\/schema.org","@graph":[{"@type":"WebPage","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html","name":"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined - A Pagan&#039;s Blog","isPartOf":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/#website"},"datePublished":"2009-07-29T12:07:00+00:00","dateModified":"2009-07-29T12:07:00+00:00","author":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/#\/schema\/person\/d94ab0155d2780a0526af373b5c543f2"},"breadcrumb":{"@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html#breadcrumb"},"inLanguage":"en-US","potentialAction":[{"@type":"ReadAction","target":["https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html"]}]},{"@type":"BreadcrumbList","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/2009\/07\/sam-harris-and-frances-collins-re-examined.html#breadcrumb","itemListElement":[{"@type":"ListItem","position":1,"name":"Home","item":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog"},{"@type":"ListItem","position":2,"name":"Sam Harris and Frances Collins Re-Examined"}]},{"@type":"WebSite","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/#website","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/","name":"A Pagan&#039;s Blog","description":"Beliefnet Voices - Gus diZerega","potentialAction":[{"@type":"SearchAction","target":{"@type":"EntryPoint","urlTemplate":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/?s={search_term_string}"},"query-input":{"@type":"PropertyValueSpecification","valueRequired":true,"valueName":"search_term_string"}}],"inLanguage":"en-US"},{"@type":"Person","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/#\/schema\/person\/d94ab0155d2780a0526af373b5c543f2","name":"Gus diZerega","image":{"@type":"ImageObject","inLanguage":"en-US","@id":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/#\/schema\/person\/image\/","url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/4f6\/4f6b5a87d91376eaf8d126df301ab8cdx96.jpg","contentUrl":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-content\/wphb-cache\/gravatar\/4f6\/4f6b5a87d91376eaf8d126df301ab8cdx96.jpg","caption":"Gus diZerega"},"url":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/author\/gdizerega"}]}},"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/322","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/9"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=322"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/322\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=322"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=322"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/www.beliefnet.com\/columnists\/apagansblog\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=322"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}