A parallel revolution should now take place in our political thinking. Our politicians are like traditional doctors; they wait until the disease occurs and then they try to manage or suppress the symptoms. You can't blame a traditional doctor for giving you a traditional perspective; that's his or her training. You can't blame a surgeon for giving a surgeon's perspective; you can't blame a military person for giving you a military perspective--and those perspectives are extremely valuable. But you want to have a broad array of options for solving the problem.

In politics, we are having a conversation that can be likened to a conversation about healing the body, circa 1950. Even terrorism is an example. You could liken Hitler, the Nazis, and the Japanese Imperial Army to an operable tumor; they could be and they were surgically removed. Terrorism on the other hand is like a cancer that has already metastasized throughout the body, but we are pretending we can just go in there and surgically remove it. And with some cancers, touching it makes it worse.

Who would be part of the Department of Peace?

The legislation as it has been offered by Congressman Dennis Kucinich calls for a peace academy as a complement to the military academy. At the military academy, we teach and learn the most advanced ways to wage war. At the peace academy, we would learn the most advanced ways to wage peace. Iraq is a tragic example of American effectiveness at waging war, i.e. destroying what we didn't want in the first days of the war, but our inability in the days and months following to wage peace.

This is not an idea that will have much traction right now. How do you make it appealing to the larger population?

When the first abolitionists spoke their minds, someone said to them exactly what you just said to me. When Susan B. Anthony and Elizabeth Cady Stanton and other early suffragists began speaking, began saying that women should have the right to vote, people said to them what you just said to me. When Martin Luther King, Jr. said that civil rights should be accorded blacks in the American south and that the American south should be de-segregated, someone said to him exactly what you just saidto me.

Historical context is very empowering because you discover through a study of history that humanity-and this is particularly true in America-never made a radical turn toward justice because a majority of people woke up one day and said that would be a good idea. History's always moved forward by a relatively small group of people considered radicals by the status quo of their time, who--while they did not represent a majority--represented at the deepest level a better idea, an idea founded on God's truth, God's love, and God's justice. So I think progressive forces need to stop being so spooked by the numbers. In systems theory, we don't need a majority to change a culture. In fact, sociologists talk a lot about the number's being 11%.-You know, during the American Revolution, the majority of colonists were Loyalists.

So we can reach a tipping point with a small number of people.

We tend to perceive these things in terms of width rather than depth. I need more people, more people, more people, more peopleWhen you look at change from the level of consciousness, it isn't about how many people your message reaches, it's about how deep your message goesI can't imagine a kind of, sort of, casually, sometimes committed terrorist. A terrorist is someone deeply focused on the goal and willing to do whatever it takesOn the other hand, I know a whole lot of people-and I myself am one at times-who are kind of, sort of, casually, when it's convenient, committed to love. You've got far more people in the world whose lives are at least primarily built on decency and good will. And yet it's as though our world and in certain ways, our own country, is in the grip of those who build their perspective on fear.

Yeah, that seems true.

Hate has a perverse kind of courage. That goes back to what we were saying earlier about people being challenged now to be more deeply convicted around things we already believe in. That's why we have enough people. We have enough people; what we lack is enough conviction.