Windows and Doors

Windows and Doors


Is Homosexuality an Abomination? Sitting in Synagogue, Reading Leviticus 18:22

posted by Brad Hirschfield

The issue of gayness is among the most polarizing issues in our society, especially among people who describe themselves as religious. Without addressing what the “right” answers are, there is no question that there are few issues over which we hurt each other more than in how we address homosexuality in general and far more importantly, gay men and women in particular. How can we stop hurting each other?
Why raise this now? Because sitting in synagogue this past Shabbat, people listened as the words of Leviticus 18:22 were read, about mid-way through the double parashah (weekly reading) of Achrei Mot – Kedoshim. The words of that verse, responsible for so much angry debate read as follows: Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination (sometimes rendered as abhorrence).
Sitting there I thought about this one law, so often described as being of particular importance because it forbids something which the text specifically calls “an abomination”. I also thought about the 118 other times that the word to’evah, (Hebrew for abomination), and words with the same root, are used in the Hebrew Bible.


Why are those who hold it to be legally binding, so obsessed with this prohibition? Is it a reflection of the prohibition’s being somehow unique by virtue of being abominable? Clearly not. If something being an abomination were our concern, then we would also be equally concerned about the other sexual, ritual, and ethical transgressions which are also described as such.
I am not suggesting that for one to be a good and compassionate reader of the Bible, one must let go of the notion that homosexual sex is biblically prohibited. I am simply suggesting that our culture’s obsession with this issue probably says more about us than it does about either the Bible or our commitment to honoring what we see as its demands.
I wonder what would happen if whenever this issue arises, all those involved, regardless of their views, would start with something other than an explanation of this verse and “what it really means”. I wonder if instead of doing that, we began by explaining why this issue is important to us — by addressing what is at stake for us personally regarding this issue, if things wouldn’t be more productive. Actually, I don’t wonder about that at all – I know that they would.
Let’s stop hiding behind texts, interpretations, claims about what God wants, and what it means to be compassionate (however well-meaning those actions are), and see each other as human beings struggling with what is for many of us a complex issue. And if it is not complex, then explain why it is not for you, instead of beating up those for whom it still is.
Human sexuality, definitions of family, and so much else, have changed more in the last fifty years than in the previous millennium. It would be odd for us not to have real divisions about the implications of those changes. But when things are most divided, especially because of their relative newness, lifting them from the ideological to the personal always helps. Compassion for an idea is hard to generate, but compassion for a real person less so. And whatever one’s views, it seems to me that we could all treat each other with a greater measure of compassion as we think about living with Leviticus 18:22.



  • pagansister

    Thank you for an excellent post, Rabbi.

  • R

    Thanks you for your two recent sensitive blogs about heterosexual and homosexual sex.
    Perhaps the thing to say about the passage in Leviticus is that if God truly thinks this is an abomination, then it is up to God to deal with it, not us. We should accept homosexuals as fellow human beings and leave any devine judgments to El Shaddai.

  • Nathan S

    “Why are those who hold it to be legally binding, so obsessed with this prohibition?”
    Because political correctness appears to be forcing believers in the Torah to accept this behavior and perhaps even sanction it (by the state that represents us issuing gay marriage licenses). The same cannot be said about, say, eating pork.

  • hlvanburen

    “Because political correctness appears to be forcing believers in the Torah to accept this behavior and perhaps even sanction it (by the state that represents us issuing gay marriage licenses). The same cannot be said about, say, eating pork.”
    On the contrary, the same state also inspects and regulates the meat industry that grows, prepares and sells that pork. Of course, you are free not to buy the pork if you wish, and nobody is forcing you to eat the pork. Others simply buy their pork and go about their business, as you do when you purchase kosher foods.
    Why not treat gays and lesbians in the same manner? Let the state sanction and regulate same sex marriage, and you may abstain from it if you choose.

  • Cully

    It’s interesting reading your blog… I always thought that the “abomination” was not the idea that it was man on man but rather that to “lie with a male as one lies with a woman” involved penile penetration, which meant sodomy.

  • Nathan S

    “On the contrary, the same state also inspects and regulates the meat industry that grows, prepares and sells that pork.”
    You’re talking about a completely different thing and the analogy fails. One, it is not a sin for gentiles to consume pork, thus even if the state “approved” of pork is irrelevant. Two, it’s different to regulate matters of public safety (food quality) and to grant recognition (and thus tacit approval) for a relationship that is based upon sin, according to Torah.
    To expand upon why your analogy is misplaced: I would not say it’s wrong for the government to provide condoms to homosexuals for their health. In that case they are not approving or recognizing their relationship as valid, they’re just seeking to protect the populace, just like the regulation of unkosher foods.

  • Nathan S

    And even beyond matters of state, no self-respecting Jewish leader would suggest serving pork at a Shabbat dinner. Yet, for some reason, many seem to think performing gay marriages is completely kosher. It’s this double standard that gets distinguishes the homosexual sins and the reaction it garners.

  • http://www.taliashewrote.blogspot.com Talia

    But what if it isn’t as simple as it appears on the surface? In my take of last week’s parshah, I go into this discussion a bit. For example, I believe this is one of the only places that the prohibition was you shouldn’t do this like you would do that (lie with a man as you would a woman)… Doesn’t that say something to us?
    Torah is not as simple as reading an oft quoted version. Sometimes we have to look deeper. For the whole thing – http://www.patheos.com/Resources/Additional-Resources/Parshot-Acharei-Mot-and-Kedoshim.html
    But you are right when you say, “Let’s stop hiding behind texts, interpretations, claims about what God wants, and what it means to be compassionate (however well-meaning those actions are), and see each other as human beings struggling with what is for many of us a complex issue.” We can interpret however we want but the fact remains… we are all people that G-d created.

  • Marian

    Arthur Waskow says the Leviticus prohibition means that, when one man sleeps with another, he shouldn’t grab all the covers and snore.

  • hlvanburen

    “You’re talking about a completely different thing and the analogy fails. One, it is not a sin for gentiles to consume pork, thus even if the state “approved” of pork is irrelevant. Two, it’s different to regulate matters of public safety (food quality) and to grant recognition (and thus tacit approval) for a relationship that is based upon sin, according to Torah.”
    It is also not a sin for non-believing Gentiles to engage in same-gender relationships. Unless, of course, you are insisting that the Torah’s restrictions should apply to all, both Jew and Gentile, with the force of the state to insure compliance.
    And, finally, if all the government did with regards to pork production was to insure safety, your final analogy would work. However, the government does much more than that. It purchases excess production and distributes it as commodities to schools and other public institutions, who then provide it to members of the public who use their institutions. The government also subsidizes the production of pork with tax incentives and rebates for the producer. And finally there is funding for promotion of pork, “the other white meat”, in sales to other nations.
    Living in Iowa I can assure you that there is a lot more than simply insuring safety in the federal government actions.

  • hlvanburen

    Nathan S. “One, it is not a sin for gentiles to consume pork, thus even if the state “approved” of pork is irrelevant.”
    For those who are Gentile (either believers in another faith or non-believers) engaging in a same-gender relationship is not a sin, either.
    Nathan S. “Two, it’s different to regulate matters of public safety (food quality) and to grant recognition (and thus tacit approval) for a relationship that is based upon sin, according to Torah.”
    If you are familiar at all with the pork industry in this nation, you know that the actions of the federal government do far more than simply insure the safety of the pork supply. They purchase excess pork in an effort to help prop up the price, and then distribute this pork to schools and other public agencies. They help promote the sale of pork products both domestically and to foreign markets. And, through tax subsidies, credits, and other support programs they provide direct and indirect support to the producers of pork.
    I fear that your description of my analogy is not accurate.

  • Nathan S

    “For those who are Gentile (either believers in another faith or non-believers) engaging in a same-gender relationship is not a sin, either.”
    The gentiles seem to disagree with you. Their religious texts just as strongly prohibit this behavior.
    There’s nothing wrong with the purchase or sale of pork by a non-Jewish government. You’re using it as a distraction to ignore the clear biblical prohibition on same-sex relationships. Any Jewish leader attempting to minimize it is violating his duty to Torah.

  • http://ThusSayethMe.com Dr. Paul K. Fauteck

    Though not a theologian, and hopelessly heterosexual, I have some perspective on this issue as a psychologist.
    First, my professional opinion is that sexual orientation is innate. We’ve found slight brain structure differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals, and studies of identical twins raised apart have found that only rarely do they differ as to sexual orientation.
    Second, as the good rabbi implies, it is those who are, consciously or unconsciously, less secure about their heterosexual identity who get most worked up about the supposed evil, or abnormality, of homosexuality.
    I have read and heard from others who are much more knowledgable than I about Jewish law that the destruction of Sodom was not about homosexuality, but rather about its cold-heartedness toward the unfortunate. And that this passage may well be referring to a pagan ritual, such as temple prostitution. And that it’s open to interpretation since it’s physically impossible to lie with a man as with a woman under any circumstances. And that scripture much more clearly and unequivocally condemns stuffing pigs and waterbugs down one’s gullet, which pompous non-Jews who opine about Jewish law do with glee.

  • Carol Biggs

    Some people often try to twist Gods word to suite themselves! When God’s word says that a man should not lie with another man or a woman lie with another woman, how much more clearer is that! It is as plain as the nose on ones face! Do some people really believe that God is so dumb! He created man (and) woman and said that he created a woman to be of help and companion to the man. Come on now! Guit being so darn stupid!!!!!!

  • Gwyddion9

    Interesting.
    I find myself wondering if C. Biggs is a Christian, who has taken it upon herself to decide what ‘god’ wants. I learned a while ago that when a Christian starts to quote the Old Testament, to then see what the Jewish understanding was as too many conservative Christians interpret scripture meaning to suit their needs rather than what is written on the subject.
    Thank you Rabbi for sharing this information with all of us.

  • bluemoon

    There are many more biblical text that we can refer to that support Leviticus 18:22. The issue is one that transcend generations and cultures since the writings cover hundred, even thousands of years and addressed to not only Jews but to everyone seeking to obey God and live holy lives.
    It is interesting to note that the way it is stated clearly indicates that it is something we ultimately choose.
    Do not steal. Do not lie. Do not commit adultery. Do not lie with another man…

  • Ucha

    It is a clear statement just like you have in the 10 commandments. The problem we have on our hands is that some folks have twisted ways of reasoning and interpreting in order to suit their warped minds. If God said it in his words then, he knew a time as this would come when men would begin to burn in lust towards one another and vise versa. Homosexuals need tough love to get back on track i.e. if they so desire or perish in their depraved state. It is hard to bear but then truth can be bitter.

  • Cheryl

    I think God was pretty sure about what he meant when he issued the command in the old testament – it was a command and not a suggestion. No-where in the Bible do we see any changes to that command. Also, why go to all the effort of creating opposite sexes if same sex relations can work just as well – are you saying God did not have a clear plan for male and female and that they were just ramdom creations – I think not. I think God knew EXACTLY what He intended for Male and Female and homosexuality and adultery etc were not in his plan or vision.

  • shirley

    “The issue of gayness is among the most polarizing issues in our society, especially among people who describe themselves as religious. Without addressing what the “right” answers are, there is no question that there are few issues over which we hurt each other more than in how we address homosexuality in general and far more importantly, gay men and women in particular. How can we stop hurting each other?”
    Interesting how Rabbi Hirschfield begins his article. He calls homosexuality…”gayness” I am not quite sure exactly when the media started using that phrase, but I always thought the word “gay” meant to be happy, light hearted. As the media changed the definition of this word, are people trying to change the meaning of abomination?

  • Lori

    I’m with Carol Biggs on this one. How much more clearer does the Bible have to be to tell us that homosexuality is an ABOMINATION! I can see why people would want to jump on that one because the veil has not been lifted from their eyes to see the truth on this one or any other truth from the Bible. The Bible does say that people love sin more than they love the truth, so I can see why people just don’t want to admit to the truth about homosexuality because it has since been rendered as “OK” in contemporary society to be homosexual when that couldn’t be farthest from the truth. Wake up people and see it for what it is: an abomination of the Lord Our God and a sin. If everyone was gay, would any of us exist today if we were all meant to be gay? Obviously not because we didn’t always have labs to manufacture or make what God makes naturally from the consummation of a man and his wife. Silly people, truth is for everyone-gay or straight!

  • reggie

    Plain and simple it is, always will be it is a sin.

  • Lobik

    @Gwyddion9 Anti-Christian bigotry aside, Carol is right. If God says in His Word that something is sin, then it is sin. Morality is not relative. The fact is there is no such thing as a homosexual person; God created us man and woman. There are only homosexual thoughts and behaviors. Homosexuality is not an identity as society would have us believe. It is an unhealthy and unnatural lifestyle and those that love God should reach out in love to those struggling with this sin; and YES I am a Christian.

  • Chaka Zola

    Its only the devil who is so smart to twist issues concerning GOD and man.
    If you don’t go to heaven simply don’t blame JESUS! He is come to play His role. Period.

  • Anthony

    I don’t believe that verse is talking about homosexuality. Why? Because every verse before and after begins with “A man should not have sexual relations with…” In Verse 18:22 It changes and says “Do not lie with a man as you would with a woman. Well being gay you would not lie with a man as you you would with a woman and vise versa. The only time that could ever be a possibility is in Bisexuality or when one falls in love with a woman and lives a lie with a man or vice versa. I do not lie with men as I would lie with women because simply I am gay. The scripture does not say A man should not have sexual relations with a man.

  • http://www.olavodecarvalho.org Olavo de Carvalho

    Do you know any infallible mean to help a guy to get rid of his homosexual impulses? I don`t know any, therefore I abstain from commanding anybody to do something I would not know how to do in his place. This is the reason why, when I tell someone that his homosexuality is a sin, I am only saying that he is in a serious trouble, not that he is a bad guy. Religious people should never “condemn” homossexuality, only warn people about its dangers. To condemn and to absolve are God`s job. Our job is just to inform.

  • Retha

    Politically correct is just another name for the devil. Homosexuality is forbidden through out the New Testament, not just Leviticus. Read l Corinthians Ch. 6. Also Romans l:24. For an eye opener read the whole first chapter of romans. The Bible says that in the end times Right will be wrong and wrong will be right. Whoever saw two animals of the same sex going at it? I lived on a farm and I didn’t. What’s with this stuff. Homosexuals exist so let them but please don’t try to make it a natural thing. NO not now not ever.

  • Dawn

    I fully agree with Carol! It is God’s Word that matters and not our own interpretations. It is none other than an excuse to be with the world and serve God as well. So either one takes God’s Word as His Hold Word or else go do your own thing and leave God’s Word alone as Holy as it is and not add or take out anything from it.

  • Daphne Myles

    I don’t know how much plainer it could be. GOD makes his word very plain, it is mas, as usual, who chooses to make it what he wants it to be, however, it does not change..It reminds me of the beginning, remember Adam and Eve?

  • karen

    There was a reason why God said that man should not lie with man or a woman with a woman or mankind with animal….it is wrong period. Look at Lot and his wife…even though Lot’s wife turned to a pillar of salt…they were allowed to leave Sodom and Gomorra because it was a wicked homosexual city. They kept asking about the angels that came there and that they wanted to get to know them…Lot kept asking God is there anyone worth saving in the city and there were NONE! Homosexuality is wrong and this is not something that we as christians should embrace….it is a sin. God made Man and Woman not man and man and woman with a woman….Lets not get this twisted so we dont hurt those who commit this homosexual acts…the truth hurts but they will get over it

  • tutter

    It is a shame with all the disasters in the world people still insist on twisting God word. It is so plain and simple. Man should not lie with man. If one chooses to do so just leave God out of it.I for one try to abide by his word because I truly want to go to heaven.

  • Dawn

    This article in no way tries to pervert the Word of God. It simply attempts to promote compassion toward people struggling with its precepts, this one or others. It isn’t about changing or personally interpreting, but about understanding. We will never convince people of sin; only God can do that. We are called upon to help and love. Our refusal to do that, to show ourselves friendly, only inhibits our ability to influence. I choose to model Biblical behavior in an attempt to influence and that includes accepting people wherever and whatever they are–to preach without using words.

  • soon

    I am not hereto judge. I am here to make sure that I comply with the word of God for my life. One of those rules are that we are our brothers keeper and we all have a spiritual and moral responsibility to at least pray for those that went astray. Remember God is love

  • wayne

    GOD also said love one as i have loved you please show me where god where said hate [any wherewith in the bible ] yea that are without sin cast the first stone GOD WAS A MAN OF LOVE not hate and look at things again

  • JON

    If only that one place in scripture (Leviticus 18:22) proscribed the practice of illicit sex I believe you would have a more reasonable position in calling for the general acceptance of homosexuality. However, I need not point out to such a learned man, that there are numerous references to homosexuality, indeed to illicit sex, in scripture where those practices are clearly proscribed.
    Do the Holy Scriptures guide us in moral behavior, which is less socially contentious in the long run, or do they guide us to a socially “live and let live…be tolerant” social philosophy which divides us more than not?
    God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, not Gabriel, because it was man’s own nature that God was addressing. Man’s behavior obtains from his nature and not the reverse. The argument for relativism rests on man’s irrational behavior rather than on his fundamentally corrupt nature. Man’s nature does not change; it is absolute and not relative. Man’s behavior changes with circumstances; it is relative and not absolute. The influence over man’s nature establishes influence over his behavior and not the reverse. The Holy Scriptures address man’s behavior in terms of his nature and thus establish an absolute moral code.

  • JON

    If only that one place in scripture (Leviticus 18:22) proscribed the practice of illicit sex I believe you would have a more reasonable position in calling for the general acceptance of homosexuality. However, I need not point out to such a learned man, that there are numerous references to homosexuality, indeed to illicit sex, in scripture where those practices are clearly proscribed.
    Do the Holy Scriptures guide us in moral behavior, which is less socially contentious in the long run, or do they guide us to a socially “live and let live…be tolerant” social philosophy which divides us more than not?
    God gave the Ten Commandments to Moses, not Gabriel, because it was man’s own nature that God was addressing. Man’s behavior obtains from his nature and not the reverse. The argument for relativism rests on man’s irrational behavior rather than on his fundamentally corrupt nature. Man’s nature does not change; it is absolute and not relative. Man’s behavior changes with circumstances; it is relative and not absolute. The influence over man’s nature establishes influence over his behavior and not the reverse. The Holy Scriptures address man’s behavior in terms of his nature and thus establish an absolute moral code.

  • Dennis

    When we state or interpret the text we are NOT hiding “behind the texts”. God wants us to be honest and forthright to those who are living in sin as to what His Word has to say about any issue. I do believe, which I think you are suggesting, that we don’t use Scripture as a 2×4 and hit them over the head with it. Rather, we are to respond in love but also with honesty as to what God says.

  • wilson

    It is indeed a shame that with all the disasters in the world, people are bent on twisting the Word of God. The Scriptural verse in Leviticus 18:22 is quite explicit. Let us fear Jehovah by heeding His commands. God is not man, and is no respecter of persons. What God calls aborminable is abominable, no matter the coloration we may choose to give it. Our friends who are into this practice need to cry out for mercy and help from the LORD, instead of justifying themselves in it. See Lev.20:13, Ex.22:19, Lev.20:12,15-16, Deut.27:21,and Lev.18:28-30. The power of sin has been broken through the sinless blood of the Lamb of God that was slain. By faith in the finished work that was wrought at the Calvary tree, a new nature is given and the power to live above sin and every disobedience is assured. The Messiah imminent return is in no doubt. Awake, thou that sleepest.

  • Kim

    I find it interesting that people place so much weight on this verse. It is also interesting to note that Jesus said nothing of homosexauls and if it was still as important to God I feel that he would of reinforced it. I can only say as a human being that it is about love and gays have a right to have a relationship with God. I can only imagine what it would be like to be gay and have only two options, never to be able to experience a loving relationship or to be cut off from God. Again it goes back to God judges, not man. I do feel that God creates life and neither two men or two women can reproduce. Don’t inflict it on others.

  • Roland M. Tucker

    Throughout all the translations in the last 2000 years, don’t we owe it to our fellow man/women who happen to be homosexual honest love as we would love anyone else we know. WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE! Let me repeat that: WE ARE NOT TO JUDGE! We would do always to accept others for who they are and let God do the JUDGEMENT.
    Remember the he who is with sin cast the first stone. How do we differentiate levels of sin? WHo are we to build layers of sin?
    For those of you who can’t understand this, I have pity for you. YOU are not to be the judge! It is ismple as that. God crfeated man in his own image, could that not include love between two people ofd the same sex? Sure it would. I strongly suggest that you examine your own life before casting your abhorrent personal beliefs on another.
    Fr. Roland M. Tucker

  • Max

    God’s word is very clear, homosexuality is wrong, so is adultery. We are supose to hate the sin but love the sinner. I don’t beat anyone over the head with God’s word but, if asked my thoughts on a subject I try and give an answer quoting His words.

  • TEOM

    Since the issue of homosexual came to the front burner, I have watch animals like goats, dogs cocks etc and did not observe for once any of these animals mating with the opposite sex. If truly America (as they say) is God’s own country, why can’t they (the Amercian gays)observe this simple law of God who created America.

  • Gma

    Whitewashing homosexuality is not helping the sinner. If we truly love each other we will in love try to teach our fellow humans that when they act out their homosexuality, they are jeopardizing their relationship with GOD. Our bodies are temples to honor GOD are they not?? What a lot of people seem to miss is that fact that we don’t go around beating up homosexuals, because how can we influence them but in a negative manner. If they are not receptive to the WORD, we don’t try to stuff it down their throats. As in any other circumstance we simply plant the seed and give it to GOD.

  • Lisa

    The only thing I can say is Thank God for Jesus and what He did for ALL of US. Why do we keep skipping over the first 17 verses before we get to this one? The number one thing that God hates most is a proud look, haughty eyes. That “I’m better than you” attitude and that “I know what the Bible says” WE ARE ALL NOTHING!! Again, this is why Jesus came. If you follow the Bible to the letter than why are you wearing two different types of material (rayon and cotton) Why did you take that paper clip or piece of paper from your job? Why are you searching for a plane ticket or kids clothes on your job? Why do you try the grapes at the grocery store and then not buy the bunch you just tasted. Whatever race you are you can not possibly understand what it would be like to be another race. At the cross we are all equal. The only thing that belongs to God is His spirit inside each one of us. This earthly body is going back to the dust of the earth. Let’s pull a sword on our ownselves and how we’re living that should keep us all very busy trying to get it right so we can make it in. God loves us all, one in the same. Jesus Christ is the only way. Not your way & not my way. Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding. Acknowledge Him in all your ways and He shall direct your path. The deception of the enemy will make you feel like you know it all or know what’s right. Read Ecc 5:1-7. Pray for one another. Worship and Praise God no matter what!

  • Brigitte Zanini

    How eloquent Rabbi Hirschfield. Now let us love one another as He taught, and leave judgement to our Creator.

  • Diana

    We are to follow God’s law, not use it as a tool to mistreat others. While you can detest “homosexuality” you should NOT hate the homosexual person. It is a sin yes, but so is sexual immorality in general including sex outside of marriage. We are not to judge others, but are to use the way we live our lives as an example and speak of the gospel in the hopes that others will follow.

  • http://beliefnet.com R.Paulus

    Stating the Bible: God created a man and a wo-man. God said: Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth and subdue it. He did not say anything else concerning gender. Who am I to twist God`s command and think as a human being thinks?

  • Clifton

    I believe and feel first that God is love and the creator of love. When we have anything above Him and more important than Him that is an abomination and yet He loves us anyway. He loves us unconditionally but He doesn’t love our disobiedience, whether it comes to putting the desire of anothers body before Him or putting the desire for material things before Him. It comes down to what and who is our god. He wants to be first not last or somewhere hidden in a “closet”. If we are married and Jesus said we look on another with lust we have sinned. God does not stand above us with a whip; He is beside us with open arms of love and He wants us with our free will to want Him as the most important thing in our lives. He will never force us to love or obey Him; we must do that from our heart and a great desire to put Him first. This is difficult for me especially because so many times I want to put me first and that hurts all of my relationships. If we all loved Him and each other the way God desires us to love there would be no hate, no wars, and we could all live in peace. But man is selfish and self centered and that’s what tears us apart. Jesus Christ is my only perfect example of a perfect love, after all he gave His life because He loved me (us) so very much. Who am I to condem; how can I possibly judge another when I am blinded by my own transgressions!

  • JHARVE4

    Simply put, those without sin let them cast the first stone… Regardless of the teaching of the bible, which surely has many things in it that all of us have not abided by there is only one judge and when you cast yourself in that light what does that say of you… For I know in the bible it does state that we are not to cast judgement. “Honest and forthright to those who are living in sin”, in my bible it states;Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. So many of those who quote the bible and choose to pick out what they see as sin may need to do just a bit more studying of the text to get the true jist of what your role is when it comes to pointing out who is livivng in sin and who is not…. Ecc 7:20 There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins.
    Prov 20:9 Who can say, I have kept my heart pure; I am clean and without sin?
    Ps 143:2 Do not bring your servant into judgment, for no one living is righteous before you.
    1 John 1:8, 10 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. … If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
    For sin is sin and no one has the right to put a ranking on it….

  • Mary

    The biggest commandment that God gives us is to love one another. He does not tell us to love only those that believe as we do, or live as we do. He just tells us to “love one another as he has loved us”. No one has the right to judge another, because in doing so you are elevating yourself. I believe as Brigitte does, to leave the judgement to God and only God. We will each stand before him and he will judge us according to OUR own sins and not anyone elses. Pray for all, because let’s face it, we are not perfect and we all have sins.

  • TEH

    This article offered no enlightenment, just more questions…

  • Joe

    God is Love. I don’t get it though, God says it is an abomination so why all the “its ok we’re supposed to love, be tolerant”. What a bunch of hogwash. The word abomination is very harsh and God did not tolerate it.

  • Rena

    As a Lesbian I struggle with my homosexuality and my love of the Lord. I pray that God forgives my sins when I stand before him. I live my life with compassion for all and upbring my children and grandchild to live their lifes as God would want them too. We all will stand before God and ask forgives for ALL sins, so until then lets show compassion for one another and live as God would want us too. God bless you all.

  • Bradford M. Rosenquist, D. D. , TN state Guard Chaplain

    To whom it may concern: (that basically includes everyone who cherishes the Bible as God’s inerrant word…His revelation to us
    as to the moral guidance we need desperately in our fallen state)
    What the Bible says is quite clear. How we go about presenting it,
    is apparently the issue at hand. We need to love each and every person, as God tells us that He is Love, and we are to love others
    as he loves us…a lifetime bit of work to come even close to loving
    as he loves us. However, as is stated in the scripture, we are responsible for our own lives and the compilation of decisions we all
    make day in and day out…we are where we are at this point do to the
    totality of decisions we have made. God gives us free will…to obey
    his word, or not. Any disobedience leads to consequences. Some are
    more immediate and obvious than others. We live an a society here
    in the USA that is premised upon Christian values based on Judaic
    values (Old Testament). Salvation in Jesus Christ by faith, gives
    us his spirit to overcome this world and the desires of the carnal
    mind…we cannot overcome on our own volition…we must give ourselves to him for restoration, forgiveness and the power to
    overcome the fleshly desires that seem so right at the moment but have eternal consequences when not dealt with by God and our faith
    in his power to enable us to do the right and wise thing in all aspects of our lives.

  • mm

    what is this article saying, what is his point hear

  • Dawnnettia

    YES GOD TELLS US TO LOVE ONE ANOTHER LOVE THE PERSON NOT THE SIN! THE WORD OF GOD IS TRUTH WE CAN’T CHANGE IT! GOD WILL JUDGE US, THE WORD TELLS US THAT IT IS WRONG FOR MAN TO LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN! SO WHY TRY TO CHANGE AROUND GOD’S WORDS TO MAKE IT RIGHT! NOT MY WORD BUT GOD’S
    SO MANY PEOPLE TRY TO CHANGE THE WORDS OF GOD TO MAKE THEM FEEL BETTER ABOUT HOW THEY ARE LIVING!!!!

  • Carol McClellan

    I agree with mm. What is the good Rabbi’s point? One can be compassionate by exposing wickedness and letting the person know the biblical truth. Letting a loved one continue in living an immoral lifestyle is not compassionate.

  • milford woodard

    GOD loves us Not our SINS, I guess he wants us to do the same?

  • babylyn

    This type of “reasoning” by our spiritual leaders has contributed to the downfall of America’s morals and values . . . Rabbi, why even try to twist God’s commandment to suit your own selfish desires . . . just tear that page out of your Old Testament – don’t think you will have to worry about justifying the vomit spewing from your mouth to God!

  • KJMoore

    I keep hearing the words ‘we should not judge’. Do you realize that when God makes a commandment He is the judge. And if we are true belivers of His word, we can also judge according to the word of God. I know many homosexuals and lesbians that I truly love. But that doesn’t mean I love their sin. You cannot make someone choose the right way to live. Following Christ is a narrow way. Only those who really love Christ will follow Him and continue to pray for those who do not. A real believer will love his fellow man but will not bow down or condone to man’s sin.

  • Kristi

    I know that hating the sin and not the person is what God wants us to do but he don’t want us to candy coat his word. I agree with Dawnnettia stop trying to change Gods word to make someone feel better your not doing them any favors.

  • Janet

    I believe the Rabbi is not trying to discredit the Word of God as some would seem to believe. I think that he is just trying to get people to see that in God’s eyes sin is sin, no matter how big or small we may perceive it to be. This is not to say that he does not view homosexuality as a sin. It is more to say that we should not try to judge one sin as worse than another. The Bible does make it clear that there are other sins viewed as abominations. As he states, why don’t we spend as much time focusing on those?

  • Your Name

    It’s GOD position to judge, so why do we always try to do GOD ‘s “JOB”. Like someone said when we try to judge one another we are “playing” GOD. GOD do not need us to judge one another but he did says LOVE one another. Thats goes to show, we still can’t do what he ask us to do.

  • The Esquire Abby

    Yes! Homosexuality is indeed an abomination. An abomination is irreversible act of treachery orchestrated by an individual as a way of acting out his own will even reversing the natural balance and harmony of the universe. This what makes abominations so lethal.
    One’s mind becomes insolate tempt the very tolerance of God. YES, GOD DOES LOVE THE PERPETRATOR….However, it is the act that the perpetrator commits that God does not love…. It is through his loving kindness and tender mercy that he forgives one and all. God forgives sin which incorporates the breaking of one or more of the Ten Commandments …He too has the power to uproot the epitome of abomonation that abides within and the will of darkness that abides intrinsically that would compel such treachery.
    The Esquire Abby
    Tune in to Manna From on High on Sundays at http://www.blogtalkradio.com/Manna from on High

  • Busola O.

    I really do not agree with this article. It is too diplomatic and oblivious. The Word is light unto our path and lamp unto our feet.

  • rr

    God is Love without a doubt, that’s why he tells us how to stay in his Master Plan. His Word is the guideline that teaches us how we are to live. Stop making excuses about your life or the life of others, just do HIS Will and not your own. Sin is Sin, no small or large, just SIN. Pray for DELIVERANCE!!!!!!

  • Van

    Rabbi, with all respect, please do not try to make a sin a complex issue. Male horses do not have sex with other stallions, bulls don’t have sex with other bulls, Roosters do not have sex with other roosters so in the mammal kingdom, homosexual sex is indeed perverse and unheard of. Homo sex is sin, there is nothing complex about it. You better get back to the word of God and know that his will is not open for interpretation. Don’t delude yourself.
    So let it be written, so let it be done…

  • http://Homosexuality Charles

    I am a devout Roman Catholic all of my 79 years on this great Earth, and I discovered being Gay when I was in the 8th grade. I was attracted to this one kid in class, ask him if I could kiss him to find out if it’s the same as kissing a girl. The chemistry there was very satisfaction as I couldn’t explain, after that I still dated girls, but was leaning more to the boys. I believe in the Bible very much, however, 2,000 years or more ago their meanings and etc., were many times different than ours of today. The Bible always used the gender Man or Male, remember the Lord meant women too. The feminists back about 50 or so years ago wanted that change so they use she now, they use he and she in many places. Our words today are crazy, like: “I think so” “You got issues” “No Drama”. Over many years we come up with words like these, which in true english language means something else. I am not saying being Gay is ok with God, I am saying to Love your neighbor as yourself’ and to Love God with all your heart and soul”, if you love same sex, and do good to others and yourself, let God decide what He will do for you at Judgement day. Also there more bibical passages for the hetro’s than Homo’s, plus 90% hetro’s in prisons, not to mention ANY Governmental agency is mess up. If people would just mind their own business and show compassion for all this would be a much better world and let the Lord take care of those who are sinful.
    Regards,
    CHARLES VECCHI

  • Rose Swartzell

    I have thought about this a lot due to what we see on TV, the personalities we have come to know from that venue, the friends I have in life and by studying my faith with an open heart. This issue is not my concern in that everyone has a choice in life and one of those is finding a mate to love and cherish. I have to make my own choices and have my own problems that will be judged. Who am I to judge anyone.

  • Robin

    We are to loved on another as God loves us “unconditionally” He knew we could not follow all the rules of the old testament thats why He sent Jesus… We are to love one another no matter their religion or race or sexual preference It is not our place to judge or condem that is between that person and God and He knows best. We are all the creation of God and He ask us to just love on another. Trust Him and Let God be God

  • Sophia

    Reading this article and the subsequent comments, clearly points out the polarization that the author speaks of. I don’t see homosexuality as anything other than what it is, a sin just like fornication, adultery, lying, stealing, etc. There is no degree to sin… sin is just that sin. One sin isn’t worse than another but we(the church in general) want to crucify homosexuals but are more understanding and compassionate to the fornicators. What does that say about us? What if we treat individuals who are homosexual just like we treat people who fornicate, cheat on their wives, steal, or lie? God does differentiate between sin and sin of any type will be judged. The truth is homosexuality isn’t any different from any other sin in the bible and even more importantly in God’s eyes. We are the one that seem to rank list sin into degrees and severity. Food for thought.

  • Sue G.

    There are several people in my life who have declared themeselves homosexuals. I love them very much even though I know that this life-style is abhorrent to God. When they grieve, I comfort them. God always moves me to just love them. They know where I stand in my faith, but I don’t try to impose my beliefs on them. Love. That’s my job.

  • TEOM

    Even animals of the same sex do not mate. If truly we believe God created man kind and gave us law to guide us in our relationship with HIM, then we must condemn homosexuality, because it is unGodly.

  • Rosemary

    The bible speaks the truth! I understand that people of today would like everything to be as they think it should be, people are selfishly spoiled. However it is an abomination and that is the simple truth according to GOD’S words. I beleive that everyone should speak to GOD thelmselves for their own sins. I also beleive that people should not try and force the world to agree with their sins. I am so sick and tired of HOMOSEXUALITY being forced on the rest of us. On the TV, in the public offices, at the work place. Keep it, true Christians do not except you trying to change GODS law. After all he is GOD, he makes his own decisions, and he said that it is an abomination…… He decided that MAN AND WOMAN should have marriage, the decision was already made for us. We do not have to make it our selves. Who ever decide that they are GAY is not my business, but when they try to step in and change GODS law, that is when I take offence.

  • Sandra

    I agree with the commentators. Maybe we can focus on the reality that one day ALL will stand before God and give account for their choices (and direct rebellion against His Holy Word). I wonder Rabbi if they will be “feeling the love” when your encouraging and nice words rattle around in their minds as they try to comprehend truth and accountability before our Father. Perhaps your passive and diluted truth will give them comfort as they process the reality of “eternity” and wonder why a man (as where the religious leaders in Jesus’ day) of “faith” more interested in his own acceptance and stature in society than saving their souls from eternal damnation.
    No, we all must pray for God to give us strength, courage and resolve to share and teach His Word, God can handle the rest. Personally, I struggle with the balance between “loving” people where they are AND sharing the truth that will cut through the veil of sin and reflect the light to their hearts. I have suffered rejection from “Christian” people as a young teenager. It was really painful to feel judged and sub-standard.
    However, I know my weakness and accept it as so, asking God to give me wisdom and discernment in sharing the gospel. I question my motive and know my actions must be driven by love. Love is the guide and the Bible, the Holy Word of God, is always the plumbline without apology.
    Praise God for His grace and mercy to a struggling society.

  • REGINAC

    I don’t agree with YOUR NAME. God said there is a righteous judgement and those who are Christians and are righteous should judge in a gentle chastized way. I also, don’t agree with the Rabbi either. We should not look the other way for any sin. Jesus didn’t when He walked on this earth over 2000 yrs ago and why should we? If God is in you, you will take a stand.

  • Scott W

    When I read “Human sexuality, definitions of family, and so much else, have changed more in the last fifty years than in the previous millennium.”, I am not sure if you are supporting the deterioration of family and thus saying it is ok to walk away from the covenant of marraige as the last 50 years are declaring it irrelevant. Continuing this thought, are you also saying that homosexuality and its breaking of the one man, one man covenant to create God fearing children should thus be accepted and the Biblical principles be walked away from.
    We all have sin issues and we should always love our neighbor irrespective of their sexual orientation but I would dare say that just because society is turning its back on God that it is ok.

  • max

    I just can not live with any woman but what I don’t under stand is that I get as much from having sax with having sex with a man as I do with having sax with a woman but with a man sax is all that it is I give him what he needs and I get what I need when I am doing it to him but all that I can bring myself to do with a man is to give him oral sex I just won’t to get him off and that gets me off I bring myself to kiss and love him as I would a woman and every time that I do a man I say that this is the last time and I try not to tell the need for sex gets so strong that I go and do it again I have ask god to bring a woman into my life and I am sure that there is reason that it has not been do and every day I thank about taking my on life becouse there is nothing here yo live for I can not tell all of the story it would take a book so all I ask is to pray that some way my lief will take a turn around Max

  • Georgette

    Why do people argue over what the Word of God means. Isn’t it plain enough? If you choose to “not go along with”, what’s written, why get angry about it? Just ignore it and do what you want to do. You don’t have to get angry with Dawnnettia, Carol Biggs or me. The same One who said to us that we are not to “lie with a man as with a woman” also said that we are not to lie (be untruthful), steal, commit adultry, kill…I read that there is a place in the Lake of Fire for all these things unless you repent of them. The way I see it, is you read the Book and you believe it or you don’t. After you die, you get to find out if you were right? Funny though that people don’t argue over what J.K Rowlings meant in chapter six when she wrote even one of her Harry Potter series.

  • Your Name

    1 Corinthians 6:9-10
    9 Or (A)do you not know that the unrighteous will not (B)inherit the kingdom of God? (C)Do not be deceived; (D)neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor [a]effeminate, NOR HOMOSEXUALS,
    10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will (E)inherit the kingdom of God.

  • Patrick

    When I would try to pull a fast one on my ol grand dad he would say “that’s just poppycock young man…just poppycock!” The same needs to be said about this message. As said by another reader “Sin is sin” no gray area,no matter the language used. This is why some of our churches today are debating at length the issue of homosexual pastors. Come on! Come in out of the fog. Tolerance is necessary to be sure,but not acceptance.Period.
    My dad would say it more directly than my grand dad. “Pull your head outta your north end of a south bound moose if your buying this stuff!”

  • martin

    In this article he said in the last 50 years people change but the BIBLE doe’s not Change,Never will change. People decide what they want and will do what they want,they change to fit their circumstances but as I said the BIBLR does not change……The people MUSt believe what the BIBLE says and not what they want….GOD made man and woman for a purpose. If you sway to the left or to the right of the Bible you are making your own decision and not GOD’s. The BIBLE DOES NOT CHANGE.!

  • Bob Castle

    The only comment that I have is shame on you for suggesting anything other than what is written in the word of GOD. It is a immoral and degrading act that Homosectuals try to inflict upon others. You need to pray about what GOD says about misleading people by their own thoughts instead of what the word says. Our interperation of the word may not be what GOD is saying at all, we have to look to the HOLY Spirit to lead us in the word.
    May GOd guide you as you make your thoughts known.

  • Lisa

    Jesus gave us His Two Greatest Commandments. Why must we continue to act like they don’t exist. He is the reason God sacrified His only Son for all our sins. His Commandments are thee plain and simple TRUTH. There is nothing you can add to His Commandments nor can you take anything away from them.
    Matthew 22:34-40 (New International Version)
    The Greatest Commandment
    34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
    36″Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?” 37Jesus replied: ” ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’[a] 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”
    No where in Jesus two greatest commandments does he discuss race, gender, lifestyle or anything else…His message has always been LOVE.
    Why can’t we teach the TRUTH of God’s LOVE through His Son, JESUS CHRIST. Again He died for EVERYONE!! This earthly body is not what God is coming back for. ONLY what belongs to Him and that’s His Spirit!!
    Ephesians 4:29-32 (New International Version)
    29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
    Give thanks unto our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ for what He has done. To God Be the Glory!!

  • Jim

    The same God that pinned these words through the writer of Leviticus also says Hate is wrong. His son Says if you do not forgive you will not be forgiven. Lets get the Log out of our own eye. I am only going to stand before God for what I do. I must teach my children what is right. The whole book of Revelations is talking about how God will judge those that will not turn from their sin. The Christian that has accepted Christ does not have to worry about the world

  • Fran

    If the Bible is our Basic Instructions Before Leaving Earth, then why shouldn’t we obey what’s in it? As much as we want to get around this issue God created Adam and Eve for a reason and that was to be fruitful and multiply. That cannot be done naturally as God intended by two people of the same sex without medical assistance. I don’t think God had that in mind when He created man.

  • Christina

    I was raised to believe and trust in God. I was also raised to believe that homosexuality was a sin in the eyes of God however I was also taught not to judge anyone no matter what the sin. You are supposed to love everyone the way that God asks us to. I have friends and family members that lead a homosexual lifestyle. I may not agree with the sin but I do love them for who they are as a person. You can love the person without loving the sin. Everyone sins and no one sin is greater than any other. No matter what the sin God still loves us.

  • Tony

    Hello,
    I was reading Max response to this sin that is condemn by God and frown upon by man. It is a question of what one wants the most. Desires that were unwholesome to a Godly life style was release into man and it has ravish his soul every since. These desires can become uncontrollable when given into, for the opposite of God is the Devil, where God(YAHWEH), the son(Jesus) works for good of man, the devil(satan) works for the destruction of men. As friends who are model citizens help us to be motivated to lead decent moral lives, the opposite happen when we have friends who choose to exploit sociiety ills, and pervert their character. There is a word from God , that says, if we believe on the Lord Jesus and except him as saviour, God will attribute his righteousness as our righteousness, and give us grace(favor) to become the individuals he ordain for us to be. Joel wrote at the command of YahWeh that the day would come when they that call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved(deliverd) The answer to anyone who sin has gain a strong hold in their life, is in the person of Jesus of Nazareth who was and is the son of YahWeh, he gave his life so that we may receive a new one, and this life will free any person from the strong hold of sinful desires. Sin produces seperation from God, but Jesus gives us a life that will bring us into the Father presence eternally. To Max be encourage to look to the Messiah, Yeshua will deliver you, do not give up, but call on him continually for he is loving and merciful to save (deliver) you.
    Lovingly,
    Tony

  • http://www.rosawesley.com Wesley

    Max,
    If I see a woman I find attractive, I know that I have to stop my thoughts from focusing on her. I have to put my body under control. I choose not to focus on or act on the act of sin. If I do, I will end up in the same place as all of the other sinners. I will also distance myself from God, while I am here on this earth. Because of that, I fight the temptations. I know the life of sin will cause me more pain than pleasure.
    Through Jesus you have the power to bind your thoughts and your actions. You do not have to act on your impulse. Accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior and ask God for forgiveness. At that point you will be give righteousness. This freedom is what the devil does not want you to have.
    I can feel your pain. It is not just about homosexuality and having sex. It is about the life God has for you. A life of peace, love and hope. God bless you my brother!

  • Frank Haas

    God’s Word is God’s Word. The wages of Sin is Death.
    The homosexual issue is not complex. Scripture says,
    ‘do not do it’, don’t associate yourself with these kinds of people. Scripture does not make suggestions.
    Like a Stop sign. It only has one meaning. No matter how you interpret it, it means complete sussation of movement. You violate the stop sign and you pay the consequences.

  • A concerned mom

    I am a christian mom and I have rasied my children to go to church and live by Gods word. I will say I am not aperfect person but I am forgiven. Our church is a sprirt filled church and non judging but clearly stand firm on the word of God. Our pastor clearing says it is sin. But as a mother who’s son has choosen this life style I have struggled beyond measure. I have brothers and sister in Christ at church who continue to pray for our family. And all I can do is proclaim the word of God on my son. Reject satans strong hold and with an honest heart take back my child and trust God will work for his life. It is a hard thing each day to know that my son does not want to change and as a mom who does not want to have walls between him and I. I struggle with peace and patience. I pray that God gives me wisdom to have communication with my son. So that I can love him and except him as God see him. As a human it is hard because we have doubts and fears and all the emotions. I do so appreicate when someone who is called by God to be a teacher and leader of His word to say compassion is important. The yoke of this sin is heavy for the family and to stay strong in the Word goes back to faith. believing in something not seen. I ask that all believer pray for the the lost and have compassion that everyone is a child of God. I am always reminded of the stoning of the woman. Jesus clearly said those without sin cast the first stone. We need to pray for all people and love them as Jesus still and always will. He died for all men and his grace covers all.

  • Bob

    I am with the other Bob….why should we as Christians just pussy foot around the issue…we need to preach the word…and let the Holy Spirit work in these people to change…the Bible says homosexuality is sin…let’s not try to color that up with excuses; we need to show love and compassion but also let them know they are sinning against God as a homosexual

  • Cindy Cannon

    From a historical perspective, when Leviticus was written, there were a lot of things that were a big issue to the people then that are not an issue now. The books of Moses prescribe a lot of animal ritual sacrifices that we do not do now. That is because we have reached the mature conclusion that God does not really glory in the smell of burning flesh. Even Isaiah noted that this is in fact the truth.
    As far as homosexuality, the ban is rooted in the necessity of continuing the human species. That is no longer our concern. If part of the population is homosexual, the lack of reproduction on their part is a good thing. Our planet is overcrowded now, and unless most of animal life dies, we likely will not and if there are less of us we will make more room for other animals to continue to live.
    There are also prohibitions in the Bible against boiling a lamb in its mothers milk, and eating of pork, etc. That was in there to preserve the lives of the Jews, because refrigeration did not exist. Why don’t we see people marching in the streets against boiling lambs in milk? If one is approaching the issue from a Christian perspective which many of the other bitter commenters seem to be, wouldn’t it be a good idea to pay more attention to the messages in the New Covenant which indicate that caring for and loving others is your primary responsibility, and in so many words states “Judge Not Lest You be also Judged.” Hatred to me is the worst sin there is, not homosexuality.

  • Your Name

    THANK GOD FOR HIS SON JESUS. WE WILL UNDERSTAND IT BETTER BY AND BY.

  • LISA

    Thank you Cindy Cannon…TO GOD BE THE GLORY….

  • patti

    I do no doubt the word of God one bit. I also have friends who were born gay. Did God make a mistake? Did the mother make a mistake while carrying this child? Is is the result of some gestational anamoly? Since I am not omniscient, I cannot understand nor will I judge these individuals. I feel great compassion for them having to chose between responding to their attraction and enjoying intimate companionship, or trying to live a celibate life. The Catholic priesthood is a perfect example of how difficult that lifestyle can be even in the most supportive Christian environment.
    One day, we will meet our Creator and hopefully gain the understanding that we seek. Until then, let us be kind, and compassionate to all of those that He has placed in our lives. Whether we condone them or not, they are who they are.

  • Linda J. McArtney

    A Concerned Mom, et al:
    It pains me to hear the reference to homosexuality as “a lifestyle” as if this were a chosen thing. Wake up people! Homosexuality is a condition you are BORN with, and not a fancy. The gene that triggers the attraction for the opposite sex, is in this case wired to those of the same sex. It should not be considered a sin, as that is a view given centuries ago, and has since been proven otherwise.
    It is sad that with all the rapists amok in our world, it is harmless Gays that are targeted as “sinners”

  • none ya

    i agree with the “a concerned mom” like jesus said “those without sin, cast the first stone”
    i personally am not gay, i don’t like watching in on my tv shows, and actually i think it’s gross. but, there are many out there that are and don’t think it’s gross, there is no way in a million yrs that going around throwing bibles at gays is gonna be a good idea to turn them in the “right” direction. seriously. don’t worry about what they do in their bedrooms, who cares. worry more about and fight about what is on your tv shows, fight about something that you can control, not what you cannot control. if the wonderful Lord has issue with those that are gay, HE will deal with it, not you, not me, why are you wasting time doing God’s judgement? please, forget this nonesense and go have a nice day.

  • Cookie

    When all is said and done, I still like the rabbi’s comment, and this is why: after thinking about this issue off and on for at least 25 years now, it is my opinion that those who engage in homosexual or lesbian behavior are missing some kind of information which would persuade them to believe that there is (in my opinion, based on watching patterns) a potential and very real soul-mate of the opposite gender for each person. Until this information is restored to them, and it may or may not happen in the course of a normal human lifetime, this temptation will continue to be a temptation. That is why compassion is also necessary, because just as parents love their children, who would be almost universally be considered to have less knowledge and experience, so we would have to show understanding toward those who are missing the information or spiritual faith and fortitude necessary to finally vanquish that temptation of same-sex attraction. It is a very real and very strong temptation which may consume these individuals’ thoughts and feelings. Those who engage in such homosexual/lesbian behavior may honestly feel that those of us who find it abhorrent are the ones missing pertinent information, but until the time when all things are revealed by our Creator, it will continue to be an issue, because we live in an imperfect world where we learn by contrast. At the same time, those of us who have come to the knowledge that our Creator has a definite, divine plan for the family unit, regardless of our religious persuasion, will not be able to stand down or back off from that knowledge.

  • Nick

    adam and eve these two were the first sinners.
    anyway with no procreation no humans
    on earth. this may be bliss for the animals…………
    lets not forget its religions that start wars……. many a life was wasted for the sake of religions……..
    to deny feelings is like dsnying the truth………….
    I rest my case……………. I am Itlian/American

  • Glenn

    God’s word is not an area where it is prudent to be “politically Correct”. It is perfectly clear, isn’t it? Just as other sins are perfectly clear. It IS a sin of the flesh. We are instructed to avoid these “traps” as it is something that the enemy will use against us to get us down. God absolutely Loves homosexuals as he loves us all but he hates the sin, whether it is gay sex or straight unmarried “fornication”. We are weak people and THAT is why we need God. No one said it is going to be easy. Life IS hard! The Apostle Paul speaks about a “thorn in his flesh” something that was always there trying to get him to sin and get his mind off of God. He doesn’t come right out and say what it is but maybe?? Either way our life on earth is very short. Our reward comes in the next “eternal life” where we won’t be subjected to these urges and we will just live in eternal happiness in the love of God. Man, I am looking forward to that.

  • debby

    I get tired of everyone condemning one sin or another. sin is sin one may seem worse than the other in our eyes, but in the eyes of God they are all the same. He tells us if we have Faith and believe in Jesus Christ and that He died for our sins and rose again that we may live; our sins are forgiven. Anyone who doesn’t believe that God shows mercy unto sinners is actually living in mockery and living a lie. If God forgave murderers, adulteries etc. through His love And Mercy, all sin will be forgiven except the unforgiveable sin against the Holy Spirit.. Jesus tells us this in the Bible afew times, therefore if we keep condemning others for their sins, we are living a lie in saying we believe Jesus{ therefore we have the sin of judging and condemning}One sin is no better than another in Gods eyes Thank God we have a merciful God!

  • Bishop J. Dennis Moore

    First off does anyone understand why God Destroyed the city of Sodom and Gomorrah with brimstone and fire in Genesis Chapter 19: Verse 24 sayes it was from the Lord out of Heaven. It was Because of Homosexuality thats why. Read all of Genesis Chapter 19. Now look in Leviticus Chapter 18: and verse 22. Thou shalt not lie with mankind as with woman kind it is abomination. all so see Leviticus Chapter 20 and verse 13. Now look in the new Testament over in Romans Chapter one and verse 20 to 27. Has your heart ben darkened. Lets go now to Verse 22: Professing them selves to be wise,they became fools,and it goes on to say that God gave them up unto vile affections for evan there women did Change the natural use into that wish was against nature: And likewise also the men leaving the natural use of the woman burned in there lust one toward another men with men working that wish is unseemiy, and receiving in themselves that recompense of there error wich was meet. Bishop J. Dennis Moore. 6737 wright R.D. Thomasville N.C. 27360.

  • Lisa

    Well stated patti. The word of God says that He knew us BEFORE we were formed in our mother’s belly. Therefore, God knows EVERYTHING. He created us one and all. That’s the WORD!! All our lives we have been taught to believe what the preacher or the priest say. So many people have never sat down and read the Bible from cover to cover. But because their preacher said it, then it must be so!! Why do we cling so much to the so called bad and not cling to the GOOD which is the LOVE that Jesus Christ taught us? It’s possible that everyone on here, really don’t believe or have Jesus Christ as their personal Savior. News Flash..All your good works, all your deeds are nothing without Him. You can’t go to the Father unless you go through His Son. Period. JESUS IS LOVE!! GOD IS LOVE!! What are you? We have but one Judge and we aren’t Him! GOD IS LOVE!! JESUS IS LOVE!! The deception of the enemy runs very deep. Some people have been walking with him, the devil, simply because of their need to be right. PRIDE WILL KILL YOU!! GOD HATES IT!! Read the number of times PRIDE is in the Bible. Get the understanding of that word in every passage. PRIDE will kill you quicker than a bullet!! He that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall. When God created each one of us, He already knew we would have this conversation today. Nothing is hidden from Him. He sees everything.

  • Bill Jones

    Verse 18:22 are the words of God, not the words of man. If you want to live as man allows you then do so, but don’t tell those of us who believe that God’s words are true and why he said them. For the people who say they believe in God to come away with some other meaning is an abomination in itself. So before you accept or reject God’s words understand not just it’s meaning, but also why He said them.

  • Cindy

    I can’t help but feel that if the Lord was hugely concerned about homosexuality as one of His main concerns for humanity that we would use a whip against others, that He would at least mentioned it in the Ten Commandments. Instead, He mentioned adultery as one of His main concerns. That is representative of lack of love and respect for one’s partner, male or female. To me, those simple commandments represent the few things that He really was concerned about.
    If one reads the Bible all the way through, one notices lots of contradictions between one book and another. It starts in Genesis where two different versions of creation are stated one after another. Isaiah says the Lord does not value animal sacrifice. The Books of Moses prescribe the practice as the primary means of telling God we revere and love Him beyond anything.
    In essence, all the rules in the Ten Commandments refer to a lack of love and reverence for the Deity and for your fellow humans. Those are the only rules in the Bible that are not contradicted. Love and reverence for all is the primary rule for life in my mind.

  • marqui jones

    It’s despicable how quickly people who call themselves CHRISTIAN will want to judge in regards to sexual preference.To cause so much pain,hurt and confusion to people who have no intention of hurting anyone is senseless.I am a Christian and I am heterosexual and I know without a doubt that the God I know loves and wants to protect ALL who worship Him and we don’t know who will worship Him one day who maybe doesn’t today so He Loves ALL of us and that’s exactly what we should do…. Love.Loving is not calling someone a pervert or saying hurtful things every chance you get. Race and Religion should bring us together not tear us apart.As a Christian/Judao country we should be a UNITED example to other countries.

  • mary

    i totally agree what glen says. no its not complicated at all!! if the bible says its wrong, its wrong! simple! easy! and no one is saying God hates gays, everybody takes that verse and leaves the last sentence out. “Go and sin no more.” i don’t think God changes with the times!!!

  • Martin T.

    Nick, Nick, Nick!!!
    Your comments Baffle me!!
    “Adam and Eve these two are the first sinners”
    This is true, but in acknowledging that you must also acknowledge they where created by the God who created all of the universe and that we live under a curse because of there sin. But that same God has made a way and given us the responsibility to rise above there sin and our sin by accepting the cleasing and atoning blood of the Lamb that was slane for the perpitiation of all sin! Jesus Christ, promised messiah to the Jew, and Savior to the Gentiles.
    “Lets not forget it’s Religions that start wars…”
    Nick, wars are started by people not Religions!! There are good people and bad people BAD PEOPLE START WARS, or good people sometimes start wars to stop bad people!!

  • Brenda

    I believe if God said it is a sin that no one should do it, it is doing God injustice, and people need to take heed about what God said is right and wrong, if you know in your heart it is sin, and it is evil, then why would you do it?

  • John

    If we are so much concerned about either being politically correct or “compasionate”, then we should accept the fact that having sex with a minor – I believe an 80 year old muslim was married to an 8 year old – is something that is acceptable and compasionately recommended. After all that poor man may have had urges that needed to be satisfied, etc.. etc..
    I cannot disagree more with being compasionate or PC with something that the bible says is not acceptable. Our declining moraes can be attributed to a lack of temple (or church) followership, TV and movies are now teaching the children behaviours, and it is easy to see that violence, sex and homosexuality have more prevalence than respect and love.

  • Julie

    The bible teaches us to hate the sin not the sinner,I have no hate for anyone who is trapped in homosexuality!I pray for them because it is a sin just like any other we commit,adultery,murder,rape,stealing…ect…
    No where should we not hire people or threaten them,we should love them just like the person who robbed the bank.sin is sin,one is just as bad as the other.but we shouldn’t compromise our beliefs just we won’t offend a person,but don’t we have the first amendment to protect us as well.speak your mind and pray!

  • patrice

    it says its an abomination for homosexuality in the BIBLE so it’s true .I’ve read the whole bible many times over and GOD’s word never changes .There is no excuse for this behavior. leviticus20:13 says IF a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman , both of them have committed an abomination ;they shall surely be put to death;their blood shall be upon them (king james version Bible)..

  • Rev. Mike Eaton

    The following is a loving letter I sent to a homosexual who thought that he couldn’t change:
    Born that way ? Maybe … Have to stay that way ? NO !
    Maybe you were born gay…… actually everyone is born with a sinful nature !! But GOD gives us the choice to stay in that sinful nature or to choose to do what is right and live for Him . The following scripture is from Pauls letter to the Corinthian Church : 1 Corinthians 6: 9-11 ” Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God ? Do not be deceived : Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God .”
    First of all I would like to point out the company with which the Bible associates homosexuals with and the fact that a homosexual will not go to Heaven. I also find it interesting that all the other sins listed are all sins of choice…..a choice was made to commit those sins….. You might want to put some thought into that !!
    Secondly, the Bible says that some of the Corinthian Church “were” those things. The word “were” is past tense , which means that they are no longer that way. Therefore , what the Bible is saying is that you can change , and that you can stop sinning !! That is GOOD NEWS !!
    You say you didn’t choose to be homosexual……..I don’t want to argue with you about that ! But I would like to tell you that you can make a choice, you can choose to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and be washed , sanctified , and justified !! You don’t have to continue being the way you are !! I pray that you will choose Jesus and you will choose to change, because as a homosexual ,or any of the other sinful lifestyles mentioned , you won’t make it to Heaven. Without Jesus, you won’t make it to Heaven !!
    Ultimately , it is about choice !! And it is your choice to make…………..
    With Christs’ Love.
    Rev. Mike

  • patrice

    To add to this statement, i love the sinner and not the sin. i pray for everyone and hope that they take the wonderful gift of salvation so they can be truly happy with JESUS as their LORD AND SAVIOR!!

  • Michael

    I am a man in my 50’s and was raised in the church. My sexual orientation is towards men only. I would love to be attracted to women, but there is zero attraction for me. I have had boyfriends, sex outside of marriage with numerous partners, and been to numerous parties and clubs in the gay community. I had some good times for sure over the years.
    Of all the things that I have been involved with in my life, the best thing that I ever did was come to God. The best relationships that I have are with people that love and serve God in their daily lives. I do know people that are gay, but all my close relationships are with Godly people that are not gay.
    I understand that the author’s intent was for the people of God not to be so obsessed with the whole gay topic and for us to operate with more compassion on this issue. Well…I am a gay man that is happy that there is such an obsession. I appreciate that there is a Godly standard to live by that “every” human being that chooses to follow God should work towards in their life.
    My vote is that the traditional Biblical approach to homosexuality remain. Following and serving God has never been a popularity contest, and while we should operate with compassion and love on all levels, I never want to water down God’s standard. I know for myself, I fall short of His will for my life, and I therefore have grace and mercy for every human being that I know. Still… homosexuality is not God’s plan and being loving more compassionate cannot include any acceptance of homosexuality as being okay with God.

  • John

    Marqui, “we” are not judging — the bible is like a ‘rules of the road’ for our behaviours to reach what God wants us to be as His children. Yes, God accepts the fact that we are sinners, and that we will do our best NOT to be sinners, and that we are weak, and we will sin.
    However, as the bible is a set of rules/laws/guidelines, we have to respect these laws – if we don’t, then why even bother with the bible, throw it away, make your own religion, just like this guy who had to ‘deflower’ the young ladies in his “ministry” (what a joke) before they could get married …
    Interesting, isn’t it, that every time we find a weirdo with some ‘new/revised’ religion it always turn to sex … wonder if perversion starts there … so, let’s say we condone anything, because we don’t want to hurt these poor folks. The answer of course, is NOT!

  • thelma

    According to the scientist, there is a part of your brain that determines your sexual preference (those born that way, not those that choose to be that way). So I think God means for those that are born with this cell malfunction, they must refrain (sp?) from having sexual relations with the same sex.

  • Janice

    totally in agreement with Patrice.

  • John

    Michael, (50’s yr old gay man)
    My hat to you – a very powerful statement- I respect you!

  • JanMarie

    The God I worship, the true living God, is the same today as He was when Leviticus 18:22 was given. Because the views of human cultures has changed over time God remains the same. He abhors the act of homosexuality but wants the person to repent and turn to Him. That is what the Bible is all about.
    We are not to judge others, that is God’s thing. I take comfort that God is the same today, as He was yesterday, and will be tomorrow.

  • KEN STEVENS

    I am a 44 yr old male who is now hiv positive due to me living a homosexual lifestyle for at least 20 yrs of my life. Once, in ’98 when I decided to redicate my life to the Lord and get filled with the Holy Spirit and began to read His word then I knew the truth, and God’s truth shall set you free. I was an early young Christian and was going to a church which had to have been supernatural ordained for me to attend, and the Power of God would come upon me in every service, sometimes to the degree that if it didn’t stop I thought I would die it was so powerful and strong. But I still felt homosexual, but over the years and with a lot of prayer. I asked God to make me heterosexual or take my sex drive away, Praise God He took my sex drive away. I haven’t laid with a man in almost a decade and have no sex drive at all. God answers prayer. So I have been set free and repented from this sin. It’s no bigger or smaller than any other sin. I think treating the homosexual with love and compassione is very important. God loves us all more than we know, but hates the sin, but loves the sinner. Thank you for bringing up the issue of being compassionate to the homosexual. We must come to Jesus Just as we are. And then our wants will change. Praise God and I wish all who struggle with this full deliverance. With God nothing is impossible.

  • Dennis

    The message we are to follow is simple, hate the sin but love the sinner. I’ve read a couple of the comments which suggest that we should accept sin such as homosexuality simply based on the love of Jesus. I challenge anyone who holds to this to name me one incident in the Gospels where Jesus did embrace the sin as well as the sinner. Jesus is Love. He died for our sins. He calls sinners to repentance. Jesus may have eaten with tax collectors and prostitutes but He did not partake in their sin nor did He tolerate it. Likewise, He didn’t reject any sinner who repented and followed Him. He forgave the adulteress but in doing so He commanded her not to sin again in that way (depending of which version of the Bible you’re reading it may say “sin no more”).
    As was said in the article, the definition of family has radically change in the last 50 years. Are we to now hold to this new morality instead of the unchanging and relevant teachings the Scriptures have given us for up to the last 5000 years? We are called to be the light of the world and to be beacons of hope for others to follow. That doesnt include politcal or social correctness unless those thing adhere to the law of God.
    We are to follow Christ here on Earth. We should seek ways to show others that life in Christ we share. Likewise we need to see Christ in others around us. We are to love one another as Christ loved us. Reject the sin but embrace the sinner. If we do not reject the sin then we allow it and deny Christ. However, if we do not love the sinner then we reject Christ’s love and hate even ourselves for there is no one here who can claim not to be a sinner.
    Persecution never dowses the flame of predujice but rather fuels it. Over tolerance is like finding termites in the structure but doing nothing about it then wonder why the structure is falling apart.

  • Bernice

    I have been with a woman since 1997. I feel that I love her deeply. However, I notice that I am struggling a bit because I want to be accepted by “society” and I am not apparently. I am on a spirtual journey today. I do feel God’s presence in my life. I am struggling.

  • Polly Crawshaw

    Although I am very much a heterosexual I did a lot of reading about homosexuality, I guess I was preparing myself for the day my adult daughter “came out of the closet”. Many scientific studies have been done on this subject and the results indicate that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice or the way you were raised or even religious beliefs but rather of the way God made you. In some cases it can even be detected in the subtle shape of the skull. The many homosexuals that I know seem to be of a different personality in that they are kinder, gentler, and more willing to help out their neighbor than the average “straight” person. Of course there are always exceptions to the rule and they are the ones that give a bad name to the rest. Wouldn’t it be a boring world if we were all the same?

  • http://www.unravelingtheword.info/ScripturesOfTheDay/ Sean Rhoades

    I believe homosexuality, and Torah based sexual sins in general can stem from three possibilities, not all mutually exclusive: it could come from a mental illness based on genetics, or a skewed sexuality based on life experiences, or a lack of self control of one’s deep inner thoughts based upon one’s lack of Godly fear, public shame, and fear of capital punishment. The former two, are special cases, that can be addressed. If a society removes the public shame, by advertising it in available public platforms, and by failing to teach its citizens Godly fear, and by removing any civil laws against such behavior, then it’s like letting a dam break, or like removing all the traffic laws. That is what has been happening in the past 50 even 90 years IMHO. If a society forbids it, with civil laws, public shame, and Godly fear, then the special cases can be treated on an individual basis. There are enclaves and a few nations, that attempt to keep their members inline.

  • Effinie

    Re: Brigitte and Dr. Fautek’s posts: thoughtful and compassionate. I also see a lot of self-loathing disguised as self-deprecation in some of these posts. The passage from Leviticus is also one of the few that does not prescribe a punishment for this transgression. I read that as yeah, the Holy One doesn’t like it, but it’s not one of the worst things a human can do. If a person lives an otherwise good life, a life of purpose, than this one human difference makes little difference in the scheme of things.

  • ED

    The Bible says what it says. I believe in respecting others and showing compassion etc. But the Bible says what it says. Adultery, fornication, and homosexuality are all the same sin. Also, I always hear people says, “Love the sinner hate the sin” this cliche` is not correct. The Bible clearly says God hates workers of iniquity.

  • Zvi I Weiss

    I think that the reason that this is such a “hot button” issue is because there is no serious attempt (that I know of) to legitimize the other “abominations” described. I do not see calls to have “adulterous pride” (pride in committing adultery). I do not see calls for “incest pride” or “Bestiality pride”.
    However, those who have homosexual desires AND ACT ON THEM (that is a very important caveat since the Torah only prohibits THE ACT) are now claiming “pride”. They are claiming that they were “born that way”. They are claiming that “there is nothing wrong” with their life style.
    Well, you can not have it both ways. If you keep quiet about your desires and activities — then it is none of my business, either. I do NOT support “witch hunts” or to go around “outing” people. On the contrary, we should NOT be checking on people. Further, for those who have homosexual feelings and struggle with them — we should be sympathetic and compassionate. If there are techniques that can effectively change one’s orientation so that one can be happy living the life style that the Torah mandates — then we should support those techniques and make them freely available (without compulsion). BUT as soon as you claim that homosexual activity is “OK” that it is “legitimate” that it is worthy of “pride” that you want to teach that “there is nothing wrong” with it… then do not be surprised that those who DO believe in the Torah will react strongly.
    We can be careful not to witch-hunt homosexual people; we can show compassion to those who struggle with their desires.. but we can not deny that the “act” is abhorrent. And, note: the Torah NEVER called homosexuality an “illness” — the act is referred to as abhorrnt just as incest, adulery, Molech, and bestiality are abhorrent. People who engage in such acts are NOT “sick” — they are simply committing abhorrent acts.

  • Zvi I Weiss

    Correctio: The Torah (in another chapter) DOES prescribe a punsihemnt for [Male] homosexual acts — it is a capital crime.
    As an aside, there is no equivalent punishment for FEMALE homosexuality. You will also note that the original verse cited that describes an”abomination” is only addressing MALE homosexual acts. However, I believe that a full discussion of why this is so would get too far afield…

  • Adam Smith

    Just throwing this out there…Why are so many Christians with Christian thoughts commenting on a JEWISH blog?
    I believe that religion is an ever changing entity and needs to be for many reasons. We do not live in a black and white world, we live in a colored one and to say that anything is so black and white like what some of the other comments I have been reading have said is to almost blasphemy in my eyes. It’s like saying that God is not complex and diverse. I apologize to whomever this is about to offend but the bible days are coming to an end. It’s shelf life is numbered because people in my generation do not want it. By that I don’t mean Judaism is going to be gone or Christianity for that matter but the amount of political power and social influence it has will be drastically reduced I am sure. I hate walking out of my house and and seeing people on the street preaching to me about something so weak. To take responsibility for your life and to face a little bit of reality is difficult for most people to do and I get that but for those of us who are capable of questioning and logically deducting, please leave us alone. We are done hearing about Jesus who most likely never existed or is not even close to the biblical interpretation. The institution of Christianity is a poison America needs to reign in. I am not saying that Christianity needs to be stomped out at all. I am saying that it needs to be put back in it’s place, and it’s place is in the churches. Keep it there and only there and I believe we will be ok. I am very tired of hearing about “We should do this” or “We should not do that” all in the name of a book that was complied by a roman empire for political purposes. Life is good and Life is all that matters. Loving people and caring about one another is the only way I truly believe “God” would have us live. Everything is connected.

  • tony

    ED you could not have said it better.The Holy Bible is right it is a abomination for man to sleep with another man.

  • Neshama

    While there are a lot of people today that like the good Rabbi who wrote this article, try to say that a lot has “changed” in the last 50 years or more. . . one thing hasn’t changed and that is G-d! In the Bible G-d states that He doesn’t change His point of view. G-d states that Homosexuality is an abomination. The word abomination is described as extreme hatred and or loathing. So it’s pretty self explanatory.
    As one who is Jewish and believes in the Torah/Tanach as G-d’s WORD, I believe that Homosexuality is a sin. The other thing that I believe is that G-d is the Judge. In Judasim when someone passes away, we literally say “Baruch Dayan Emet”, which means, “G-d is the One True Judge”.
    That being said, I believe that G-d is the One who will judge things in this life and the next. So we as human beings do not need to be the judge of our fellow Jew or fellow man. So I try to be kind to every person that I come into contact with. I don’t care for how some may live their lives, but I am not the one to judge them.

  • Anglican

    Is it true that eating crawfish is an abomination.
    I know that crawfish eat dead bodies does that make them riturally impure?
    What is the penalty for committing such an abomination?
    Should we call bad what God has called good?

  • Denise D.

    I have read some of the comments. What the Rabbi stated is about the love we should posses, and setting aside indifference (emotions) we have. We must display as Believers, God’s truth (The Word), but we don’t have to compromise our faith in Jesus Christ which God gave as an example to live by. We are to minister to the lost with the love of God in our hearts, otherwise, we/you/me will not be heard. The ultimate goal is, we as Believers are to try and accomplish His Kingdom inside of us and around us. The Word of God will go forth as planned, to save as many as hear and believe the truth! We can plant the seed but God waters it according to the person’s will.
    Second Timothy 2:24-26 is a guideline for those who would counsel in the Word of God.
    We live in the world but we are not of the world. We are to separate our deeds and thoughts apart from what the world is doing. Christians are to be salt and light (Matthew 5:13-19).

  • Vicky

    Yes all sin is sin including homosexuality, and Ed the word iniquity means a wicked act or thing so when it is stated that God loves everyone but he hates sin is a true statement becuase being that sin is a wicked act, then he hates the sin that we are committing no matter what God states that sin is. All of us sin so we are going to be judged for continuing in sin, the only way that stops is when people choose to accept JEsus in their lives and to please God they must through Jesus, end the sin that they are choosing to committ. They can’t blame being born that way or anything else for that matter but just as we choose to committ a sin, we can choose to stop committing that sin. Just like people to harm those who continue to choose to do wrong are just as bad as the ones choosing that sin, even the ones that decide not to accept Jesus in their hearts, people have no right to mistreat or physically hurt that person at all

  • nancie faustin

    I don’t think Christianity has to be put back in its place like you said. God wants anybody to hear about the Good News. You have a right to tell anyone who is talking to you about it to leave you alone. But it still needs to be talked about outside the churches and may God bless anybody who is doing so.

  • http://www Minister Randall Kevin Hill

    I studyed the word abomination in the Hebrew and it meant filthy. When the scripture states that all our righteousness is as filthy rags it is relating to a womens menestration period.Now, you would let you child sit next to a gay person, but you wouldn’t let he or she sit next to a used female product. So what is god saying. Sin is sin and we need to stop judging people and love them like christ loves each and every one of us.

  • Marilyn O’Donnell

    Dear Brad Hirschfield,
    Thank you for reminding us all to be compassionate toward people no matter what. Homosexuality is a very complex personal issue partly because of the amount of suspicion and hatered religious people tend to use to address those people who are gay. I am a Christian who has struggled with sexuality for my whole life, and oftren found to my dismay that many ” believers” think Homosexuality can not be forgiven, and that the homosexual way of life is contageous. Only Our creator has the right to judge us. We need to pray for each others’ well being, and ask our creator to give us wisdom and grace toward epople we don’t understand or even like.
    Christians can learn a great deal about living with diversity from Our Jewish friends.
    Shalom!

  • Jared H

    As someone who has struggled and continues to struggle with the issue, I can say that this issue is not black and white when you have these feelings.
    I think that through reading the Bible with an open mind, having a historical & cultural understand, and using the Bible to interpret itself one can see a clearer picture of this issue.
    In regards to Leviticus and the OT, if we were to follow the wording exactly one could say that lesbianism was acceptable up until the New Testament was written since there is no mention of women having relations with women in the OT.
    Also, the article mentions that the word “abomination” in Leviticus is “toevah,” which is the same Hebrew word used to describe eating certain animals in Deuteronomy 14:3-19, including seafood (v9-10). Toevah refers to things that are unclean, physically and spiritually.
    Looking at the historic context, you get a reason as to why the Leviticus chapters only mentions male-male sex and that’s because males used to have ritualistic sex in pagan temples as a method of worship.
    In Lev 18:3 (& 20:23) God sets the context for the laws in Leviticus as direct condemnations of the idolatry going on in the area. In 1 Kings 11:5-7 & 33 we get the names of these false gods and among them Ashtoreth, who was the god of fertility, was often worshiped with ritualistic homosexual sex.
    The specificness of the Leviticus scriptures, and their direct correlation to false god worship show that the reason these practices were sinful was because they were spiritually unclean (because it was idol worship) and because it was not the loving context that God desires in a relationship.
    We cannot use these scriptures for a blanket statement for ALL homosexual acts either. A perfect example is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. Now, Ezekiel 16:49-50 details the sins of Sodom as pride, inhospitality, and the like. However, there were sexual sins within Sodom too mentioned in Jude 1:7. The men of Sodom demanded sex from the male angels.
    Now, before you blanket statement this to ALL homosexual acts, take a look at the story of Gibeah in Judges 19. It’s eerily similar. The only difference is that the men demanding sex with the male visitor actually accept the virgin girl and rape her instead and kill her. Well, there it is. The fact that the men demanded sex with the male and then ended up having sex with the female proves that this story, along with Sodom, is talking of men wanting to dominate and rape, no matter what the gender of the person is.
    We cannot say that ALL heterosexual sex is sinful from the story of Gibeah in Judges 19 just like we cannot say that ALL homosexual sex is sinful from Sodom. These two stories depict the same sin regardless of the gender of the victim, and that is rape.
    I could go on with this but for the sake of time and space I’ll end it here. But, all I ask is that you think, read, study and pray hard before you pull one scripture out of historical and scriptural context and use it as a weapon.
    I’m still in my journey of doing this myself. It is probably easier for someone struggling with homosexual feelings to understand the difference between the homosexual acts condemned in the Bible and a healthy loving monogamous homosexual relationship. I certainly do.

  • Quinton

    It’s amazing how many people focus on this one particular law, but never bother trying to follow the other ones that make no sense. It seems easy to pick and choose which laws to follow based on your own bigotry and prejudice. The KKK and other “religious” groups surely have found ways to encourage hatred through picking and choosing biblical verses that support their narrow minded personal beliefs. I guess if we all focus on what needs to be done from Leviticus, then we should all own slaves, make burnt sacrifices and start stoning people again. Oh, and avoid eating shellfish, touching pig skin and cutting your hair. So remember, if you are going to force one law and avoid the rest, you should remember that God said to keep all of his statutes and judgements!
    [Lev 20:22] Ye shall therefore keep all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: that the land, whither I bring you to dwell therein, spue you not out.
    ‘Religious hatreds ought not to be propagated at all, but certainly not on a tax-exempt basis.’
    – James A Michener

  • noemy

    Stop judging. Yes sin is sin, but who has not sinned? Let the one who have not sinned through the first stone. We can not through stones because we ALL are sinners. Just be compasionate, and loving. What is wrong with letting our children sit next to a homesexual/gay, however you call them? They have a heart, feelings just like we have. What about is your son, daughter, father, or mother is gay or lesbian? Are you going to love them any less for that? Lets do the same as God, love the sinner not the sin. Lets show our love by not throughing stones since we are not clean of sin either, but by love one another just like we love God.

  • Gwyddion9

    This has been an interesting read. I’m gay and Wiccan, so as far as the religious aspect is concerned, I have no horse in this race as it’s simply not authoritative to me and has no power over me.
    I see what appears to be conservative Christians arguing the “inerrant word of god” stuff, which if one does not prescribe to their beliefs means pretty much nothing. What I do find interesting is how many are arguing with the Rabbi as if he doesn’t ‘know’ his own scriptures. I’ve seen this type of arrogance on Belief net many times where because someone who is Jewish defines something different than conservatives, they’re told they don’t know what they’re talking about.
    Like I said in an earlier post, when conservative Christians start quoting the Old Testament, I go and find what the Jewish understanding is on the subject simply because too many times, it’s twisted to fit what they (conservative Christians) want. Which then, reaffirms that they can choose to believe as they will but in fact, are no better in their beliefs than anyone else and for all their yelling and preaching, amount to nothing.
    When in doubt, ask a Rabbi about the Tanach, not a conservative Christian, if you want the REAL truth.

  • carlyle

    Homosexuality is a sin but like all sins Christ can set you free as He did with some people I have known. God can both forgive and restore someone involved in this. Homosexuality is bondage as all sin. God is clear throughout His word from Old Testament through the New Testament.

  • pagansister

    Reading all the folks who claim they know what “God” declares sinful…including homosexuality is interesting. Are they saying that those who are attracted to the same gender are mistakes by their creator? Are they saying that humans are defective if they love a person of the same gender? That is very sad. Do they actually believe that being attracted to the same gender is a choice? It’s not, IMO. A loving god loves all the humans he/she created, or how can the Christians claim that even a murderer is forgiven?
    Does anyone who follows the OT and NT as a guide realize that it was written by other human beings…who are not infallible and in the many translations and copies things have gotten changed, miscopied, wrongly translated etc., so how in the world can it be “gospel”? Those writing it had an agenda to push. Those who wrote it were divinely inspired you claim? Sure God was sitting beside the monks who wrote/copied it over and over and over again…never making a mistake. Nope. It is a great book…with parts for all(murder, incest, war, loving poems etc.) to enjoy or use for some advice. Law? I think not.

  • Dee

    I have read and I have heard.But the word stands for itself. You may be reading but u are not getting an understand.God says what he means not what we think it is.Your sexually being is between God and u.Pray that we all understands his word. Stop trying to make a wrong a right.The Bible is our guide for instruction in this world.

  • Godwin

    Dear Rabbi,
    that was an interesting conversation of the question: Is Homosexuality an Abomination? It seems to me that you invited us for conversation and opinions or better still “sitting on the fence,” that will never bring any answer or solution. So we are left with the same question; Is it or is it not an abomination, to the Lord according to your Torah? What do you say?
    Respectfully,
    Godwin

  • Ms. Tee

    I have to agree with many of you on this board. God words does not change!!!Folks will try their best to justify sin!! Sin is sin! I don’t care what it is!! God despise it! No one is put here to judge but to lend a helping hand or listen with a open heart to their brothern that may have a struggling issue!! God love all his children it’t the sin in them he despise!! When God created a man he went back and created a women a help mate! Satin has been lurking about for years seeking out the weak to destroy them!! I pray for all that one day they will come to the realization of knowing the real God!!!

  • hlvanburen

    Then I take it that all of you who are appealing to the “clear teaching of God’s Word” have no problem with the literal teaching of this passage.
    “If a man lies with a male as with a women, both of them shall be put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their lives.” (Leviticus 20:13 NAB)
    Nathan S., shall I bring you a box of stones so the Law may be honored?

  • Jorge Rodriguez-Torres

    this message is in response to “noemy” I do agree that we all should love the sinner and not the sin. we should all treat each other with the same respect we all would want to be respected.
    I always picture sin as a chained dog that seems pleasant but when near it bites ferociously and won’t let go. with that being said, would you let your son/daughter be near that dog or would you protect them? it seems to be contradictory to love one another, but it is not, my kids will grow up to respect other individual but will also be taught to avoid the nearness to temptation and sin. that seems a utopia thought, we all have them, as humans we are unpredictable, but with strong moral foundations nearness to sin can be avoided not prevented but avoided!

  • JerryVan

    The words mean just what they say nothing more nothing less But we r not to judge but to obey the word and use it as our guide and let our everyday life show it!

  • zann

    There are parts of the Bible I would not choose to blame on God. This restriction may be one of them. The recommended punishment, quoted by hlvanburen above, is certainly one of them.

  • Agnes

    Ask yourselves this question. What really took down the Roman Empire? Was it their immorality? Americans wake up and speak up for what you know in your hearts is wrong and do it with compassion. And maybe being compassionate with understanding but based on the Bible may work to change this where it will not be an issue anymore. Satan truly works on our weaknesses.

  • John Davies

    An eloquent and thoughtful meditation on one of the most contested issues of modern religious life. Rabbi Hirschfield, I commend you. Our spiritual communities in the monotheistic faiths may not come to a consensus on the issue of homosexuality any time soon, but if we can’t at least agree on the complexity of the issue, we will get nowhere. Human sexuality is a beautiful, God-given gift and too often abused. Does merely being gay constitute such abuse? Hard to say, since the polar sides of this debate can’t even agree on what “being gay” means. Life is messy, but the spark of God resides in each of us. Some humility on both sides of the debate over homosexuality and religious life is imperative if we wish to get past our current cultural impasse.

  • Rivka

    Why did Hashem create homosexuals and then declare them abominations? I struggle with our religion’s view on homosexuality because I have a hard time reconciling compassion and humility with words written down by old men a long time ago.
    One of my children is gay. He is an incredible human being and I know of few others who better personifies being a ‘good jew’ — from his humanitarian efforts, fundraising, involvement in shuel and our Jewish community in general. I am so proud of him and his contribution so far to society. It sickens me how members of our religion have the chutzpah to even suggest he is any less of a Jew, or that he has to ‘hide’ what he is within his ‘compassionate religion’.

  • elisheva

    YES THE TORAH DOES SAY THESE THINGS. BUT WE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO JUDGE WHAT OTHER PEOPLE DO , UNFORTUNATELY , WE SEEM TO THINK THAT WHATEVER OTHERS ARE DOING IS MORE INTERESTING THAN OUR OWN PERSONAL LIVES. THERE ARE JEWISH PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE GAY, RELIGIOUS, AND NON-RELIGIOUS. WE SAY THAT THEY ARE WRONG FOR WHAT THEY ARE DOING BECAUSE ITS AGAINST THE TORAH AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED, BUT DO WE EVER LOOK @ OUR OWN LIVES AND THINK SOMETIMES THAT MAYBE WE ARE DOING THINGS THAT ARE JUST AS BAD, AND WE SHOULDN’T JUDGE, SO THE NEXT TIME WE SEE PEOPLE IN THE STREET, SAY HELLO TO THEM, BECAUSE YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT THEY MAY BE THINKING OF YOU.

  • Bradley

    I agree with JerryVan. This verse is so straight forward and simple to understand. Homosexuality is a sin. I am a sinner also but not a homosexual. I hate my past sins and wish not to sin. I have a hard time with the homosexual agenda and the promotion of it. To me it is promoting sin as just another life style…it is OK. WRONG!!!
    It is not natural…it causes pain to the homosexual spiritually whether they know it or not and also pain and confusion to others. It cannot be promoted as just another lifestyle to children. This must stop. I agree, Love the sinner but HATE the sin. Homosexuals struggling with this sin need our love and support. But stop calling this an alternate “Normal”. Think and utilize the moral compass God has implanted in all of us…the answer is right inside all of us.

  • Cindy

    I would like to know what the ‘other abominations’ are that you refer to in this article.
    I try to maintain a sensitivity regarding this matter by holding to the fact that sin is anything that falls short of the Glory of God, thereby we are all guilty. However, those who would seek to justify their sin rather than turn from their ways to please God, have established their own belief system apart from God, thereby making themselves gods unto themselves. Surely this is an abomination and God in His righteousness has every right to enact punishment in whatever way He chooses. After all, when all else is said and done, God alone is God.

  • Cindy

    I would like to know what the ‘other abominations’ are that you refer to in this article.
    I try to maintain a sensitivity regarding this matter by holding to the fact that sin is anything that falls short of the Glory of God, thereby we are all guilty. However, those who would seek to justify their sin rather than turn from their ways to please God, have established their own belief system apart from God, thereby making themselves gods unto themselves. Surely this is an abomination and God in His righteousness has every right to enact punishment in whatever way He chooses. After all, when all else is said and done, God alone is God.

  • vANGIE

    I have a very dear friend who is a non-pratictising homosexual. He grew up this way and never understood why he was different. The little boy that he was suffered many an anguished night wondering why he was different and knowing that he could not share this with his family. It would have been devasting in the small town where he grew up.
    I don’t know what made him this way and frankly neither does he. He did not just wake up one day and say I am a 10 year old boy and I like other boy’s. Can you put yourself in his place for a day. Well he prayed often about this and soon a gentleman came into his shop and they began to enjoy each others casual conversation for about 5 years. One afternoon the customer begin to speak to him of Jesus and for the next two years they spoke about our Lord.
    One day as the gentlman and my friend were speaking, He got it! the Holy spirit stepped into his heart and made of him a new man. He is still gay, but now he is celebate. He says it is hard and he has felt no change in his desire for men, but he still walks in the faith and remains in control of his body. His is a story of redemtion over years that came with grace and love and a friendship first. If we, as Christians would take an interest in people just for who they are and love them for just who they are you can open the door of thier heart with the key of your friendship and help them find thier way home. Blesses be His Holy name, He would that none would perish!

  • Your Name

    The main problem in the Church today is not at all about topics of homosexuality – it is about the holiness of God.(Absolute Truth) The Holiness of God has much to due with absolute truth which love comes from – this is because God spoke everything into existance. He spoke not just physical (laws) things into existance – he spoke the spritual laws as well. It is God’s design and we are blessed to be part of this creation.
    You have to know the truth to understand his mercy through Christ!We can be forgiven of our sins, but we have to live with the consequences of our choices.
    Mankind is born with the knowledge of good and evil just as the book of Genesis dictates. We do not need the 10 Commandments to tell us sexual immorality or even murder is wrong. Did Adam and Eve knew being naked was wrong before they ate the forbidden fruit? (no)They knew because they gained the knowledge of good and evil. Did Cain know murdering his brother was wrong before he committed the act? (yes)
    Their are blessings and curses to your choices because we are living in God’s design not our own. Thank God for his blessing of Christ and the forgiveness of our sins.

  • Colin

    All I can add, He who is with out sin cast the first stone

  • Dennis

    People of the same sex making love in private when that harms no one is simply not an ethical issue. Religious people ought not to impose their particular ancient religious dogmas on other. The strict separation of church and state benefits everyone. The Leviticus quote 18:22 which has caused the suffering and death of millions is more about the Jewish obsession of keeping categories separate, men shall not act as a woman. What does this say about the male view of women when it is an abomination to act like a women? How can a man love a woman when to act like her is an abomination? We need to continue to free ourselves of these gender prisons, then men and woman can truly love one another. For a scholarly discussion of what the Bible really says about sex, read L.William Countryman’s illuminating book, Dirt, Greed, and Sex.

  • G

    Irrespective of what Torah says about ‘Homosexuality’ what I have a difficult time with is the savage intensity that this scripture is wielded against those whom it speaks of.
    I see nothing in Torah that sends a subtext with this scripture that demands viciously uncompromising contempt and vitriol against homosexuals.
    I don’t understand and I take vehement exception to the redaction of another human being down to merely how one channels their love and desire through their genitalia. I cannot countenance the complete summary dismissal of the totality of another human’s personality,work and contributions to humanity and say ‘sexuality’ is the sum of all that matters in a person’s life and work.
    I can’t explain this passage of Torah. But all I can say is G*d is the judge and the decider of such issues and I am not called to be G*d’s HITMAN. If I evaluate a person at all, it will be based on the totality of their life and work, not on issues of how they experience joy with another consenting adult.

  • Jared H

    As someone who has struggled and continues to struggle with the issue, I can say that this issue is not black and white when you have these feelings.
    I think that through reading the Bible with an open mind, having a historical & cultural understand, and using the Bible to interpret itself one can see a clearer picture of this issue.
    In regards to Leviticus and the OT, if we were to follow the wording exactly one could say that lesbianism was acceptable up until the New Testament was written since there is no mention of women having relations with women in the OT.
    Also, the article mentions that the word “abomination” in Leviticus is “toevah,” which is the same Hebrew word used to describe eating certain animals in Deuteronomy 14:3-19, including seafood (v9-10). Toevah refers to things that are unclean, physically and spiritually.
    Looking at the historic context, you get a reason as to why the Leviticus chapters only mentions male-male sex and that’s because males used to have ritualistic sex in pagan temples as a method of worship.
    In Lev 18:3 (& 20:23) God sets the context for the laws in Leviticus as direct condemnations of the idolatry going on in the area. In 1 Kings 11:5-7 & 33 we get the names of these false gods and among them Ashtoreth, who was the god of fertility, was often worshiped with ritualistic homosexual sex.
    The specificness of the Leviticus scriptures, and their direct correlation to false god worship show that the reason these practices were sinful was because they were spiritually unclean (because it was idol worship) and because it was not the loving context that God desires in a relationship.
    We cannot use these scriptures for a blanket statement for ALL homosexual acts either. A perfect example is the story of Sodom and Gomorrah in Genesis 19. Now, Ezekiel 16:49-50 details the sins of Sodom as pride, inhospitality, and the like. However, there were sexual sins within Sodom too mentioned in Jude 1:7. The men of Sodom demanded sex from the male angels.
    Now, before you blanket statement this to ALL homosexual acts, take a look at the story of Gibeah in Judges 19. It’s eerily similar. The only difference is that the men demanding sex with the male visitor actually accept the virgin girl and rape her instead and kill her. Well, there it is. The fact that the men demanded sex with the male and then ended up having sex with the female proves that this story, along with Sodom, is talking of men wanting to dominate and rape, no matter what the gender of the person is.
    We cannot say that ALL heterosexual sex is sinful from the story of Gibeah in Judges 19 just like we cannot say that ALL homosexual sex is sinful from Sodom. These two stories depict the same sin regardless of the gender of the victim, and that is rape.
    I could go on with this but for the sake of time and space I’ll end it here. But, all I ask is that you think, read, study and pray hard before you pull one scripture out of historical and scriptural context and use it as a weapon.
    I’m still in my journey of doing this myself. It is probably easier for someone struggling with homosexual feelings to understand the difference between the homosexual acts condemned in the Bible and a healthy loving monogamous homosexual relationship. I certainly do.

  • Andrea M.

    Maybe the old testament can be considered under the law and it is true
    Jesus came and he died for all sinners so he loves everyone,but in the New testament it is mentioned again in Romans 1:27, if the word of
    God is truth and you believe Jesus is the word become flesh, then you must accept there is a way he expects us to go. No matter what though
    sin is sin, men living with women they are not married to is sin just
    like homosexuality. We are to be renewed in our mind and we can be free of any bondage. Ask Jesus to reveal himself and free you from
    a sinful lifestyle and he will. I was living with someone but when
    I came know Jesus, I was willing to walk away but we got married and
    have been for 14 years. God can change thoughts and desires we just have to trust him. God’s rules are for a purpose most are to protect
    us. So why try to find a way around them. He said no divorce because
    it causes pain, children are scarred, and may never have a normal relationship themselves,and many people can not ever get over it.
    I know I woukd rather spend my days doing what pleases God than what
    pleases me.

  • Jennie

    I am confused about homosexuality. I think there are various types. 1. People born with desire for the same sex, because of genetics 2. those who grew up as a sensitive boy and made to believe that means they are homosexual, and 3. people who are just full of lust and addicted to sex. Most gay men i have spoken with are just looking for a lifelong partner and friend. I am a straight christian, and I am offended when people hate gays or laugh at how foolish they think gays are. If it is a sin, then why would anyone want to laugh at someone’s sin??

  • Jon

    A flaw I must point out to do with this post is this: The man who wrote it is a Jewish rabbi. He doesn’t believe in or subscribe to the New Testament, in which is states that satan will be unloosed on the world, and allowed to test men through the Great Tribulation. This is of great importance, as this should be considered when analyzing the times we live in.
    The verse in the Bible clearly states that homosexuality is an abomination. This is stated by God, plain as day. Period. The article does have a point in that we as a society shouldn’t respond to people being homosexual with hatred, but that doesn’t mean we should consider it to be OK…. After all, think of it this way: Once you stray from the Bible and argue that it’s “archaic, not fit for modern man, or simplistic,” then, you’re not a Christian or a follower of the Bible anymore, are you?
    Remember this: Man has fallen from the grace of God through his own will, thinking that man is above God, or that there is no God at all. People would do well to remember this idea when they decide to embark on a grand concept such as arguing against the Bible and what it says.

  • Hatzilim

    There are a few things i wish to say. The quote from Leviticus 18:22 states in fact a man shall not lie with a man as he lies with a woman. There is nothing stated, in any biblical Jewish text that states that Homosexuality per se is an abomination. Being this, one can be a homosexual but one is not allowed to act on it. I do believe it is something that occurs inutero with the environment playing some role. I don’t believe people choose to be gay because considering they are 10 percent of the population world wide, no one wants to be an outcast on purpose.
    Hashem created each one of us with a specific mission. We are all born with burdens to bear and it is only up to Hashem to decide the why it is, or how it will be judged.
    I have known gays and lesbians my whole life. I am married and heterosexual and nothing in my nature would lead me to be gay but having known those who are homosexuals both the men and women I know wish they were not. Watch the documentary “Trembling before G-d” and see how these religious Jewish men and women struggle with this. Some never marry and remain celibate, some are married and lead double lives, some get divorced because they can’t live this lie.
    Unfortunately, the gay lifestyle that permeates the media and the streets is what makes most people that are not gay so repulsed. It is the promiscuous, flamboyant, nonconformist, rebellious, in your face gay lifestyle that most people feel uncomfortable with. Think about those that are not gay and see how many fit the description I just wrote about.
    Hashem is Judge, Jury and Executioner…….we mere mortals should work on ourselves before pointing fingers.

  • G

    Well Jon,
    Spoken like a true zealot but the body of your assertions suggests a less than thorough knowledge of Theology and cultural subtexts necessary for interpreting scriptures. I understand that it is easy to reduce everything down to the ‘simplistic’ and call that ‘inspired’ and or ‘real faith’ but that is precisely the mentality that has led the pious on disastrous crusades and witch-hunts.
    First, don’t be surprised that there aren’t a lot of ‘Christians’ at this site as it is a ‘Jewish’ belief-net site.
    Also, pardon Rabbi Hirschfield for being Jewish..albeit I have never met a non-Jewish Rabbi. I don’t think that A Jewish Rabbi’s take on this is a ‘flaw’. That sounds rather condescending and is indicitive of that ‘Triumphal Christianity’ that is so wont to persecute and and demonize all that is outside of the ‘The Faith’.
    Second, don’t be so quick to talk about “satan’ being loosed for the destruction of the planet to someone from a people that have suffered untold horrors that you can’t even begin to imagine!
    I can’t imagine looking at the face of a Holocaust survivor who lost father’s mother.s children to cruel and sadistic murderous men and trying to tell them if they don’t find faith in ‘Christianity’ that they will go to hell…well, I don’t think hell compares to what they have suffered and they will probably just shake their heads in disbelief.
    Try to grow Jon, and don’t be afraid to lose the self-inflicted orthodoxy, The world is a bigger and more complex place than that.

  • MARIE

    You are right sin is sin, but I hear of ministers that are gay preaching and/or teaching the gospel. I have a real problem with that just like I would have a problem with a minister of God’s word being a child molester, adulterer, and continuing in the pulpit like business as usual.

  • Gale

    Andrea,
    I understand what you are saying. Though you need to look at today, not years ago.. They are examples of what is going on now. Yes and man is suppose to be with a woman, just like Adam and Eve. Though what about all of the family marrying sisters and brothers and Soloman had 500 wives and men had more than one wife. You cannot judge another persons life only God can. So you know what is right from wrong when you are growing up. Though your parents may have incest and you may think it is okay. It is terrible that you say that one is wrong for that as God is The last answer. And all you have to do is ask Jesus to be your savior and believe and just with all of your heart and you shall be saved.

  • John Davies

    To the several posters who insist “the bible is clear: homosexuality is a sin.” That statement appears nowhere in the Tanakh or the Christian New Testament. “Homosexuality” is a reification. The verses you cite a) refer to male acts only, b) say nothing of relevance to emotional or psychosexual orientation.
    These are facts.
    Even if you were to say, “The obvious conclusion from these verses is that homosexuality is a sin,” I would still disagree but it would at least be more honest.

  • max

    I don’t know I know that I have ask not to be this way but just any woman can not change it for me and I have all ways belived tha god could fix anything and still do and that some way that he will change my bysex life style some way and I don’t under stand why I can not stop having sex with a man when I realy won’t to but when I need and won’t sex so bad that is where I go and I just can’t bring myself to lie to a woman and tell he that I love her to get her to have sex with me and I don’t have to tell a man nothing just go down on him and make him feel good that is all he caries about but at the same time it takes care of my needs to and although I thank that it is going to send me to hell I still love god and all ways will even in hell so how do I stop with out having a woman in my life so again I ask you to pray for me Max

  • A wonderful lady

    I appreciate the topic on the subject of homosexuality. Thank you for being open to all subjects.
    I for one believe in love. I am gay, female, 45 years old, and yes, often at times I wished I wasn’t, because so much of society betrays my spirit (me) because of who I am. Would it be the easy way out to pretend I am not gay so I am accepted? Are you better than me to decide who I should be? I should never have to prove my self worth or innocence, my sincerity or my values in life. But that is sadly not the case in life/society. As, I have been cast aside as if I am deranged and should be thrown into the dungeon. Do you know how much that hurts me? I understand people judge, people relate to the “law” of religion and I respect that so much. I do too, and I also love with all my heart and soul, my great creator. Therefore, my mind is naturally open to all people.
    Because of society that makes laws based on Leviticus, or if other people feel they are based on other religious material, it definitely has impacted my life (I would say with negativity as a whole and many lonely times, even now.) I say this because my only dream that I have cherished since I was old enough to know the dream of “love” happened, but never happened in the “real world life”, because someone else chose, now, and many generations ago to prevent me from truly being me. The person that I loved dearly and sincerely desired to have my life with, ended because of this.
    I personally believe that text can be taken into different views….. And my view of Leviticus 18:22, “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman” is perhaps: we should not lie with the same sex when one is not in their right mind or not having a sobering mind. Same holds true to the opposite sex. So it means: don’t do something that will benefit the greedy mind, put you first or hurt others. The same goes with: do not lie or cheat or steal if it falsely benefits you.
    Love is a natural emotion, the one most truest emotion that portrays all humankind. It is most essential to life. Without it, we can not survive. So let us think about that for once, next time judgment comes from you, from me, near or afar or from texts or opinions.
    AND remember: love is absolutely essential to our life, and should never be denied to any person. Let us all believe in it!
    For those of you read my post, who are happily in love, in a “heterosexual” relationship, imagine…really try to imagine, that you are me and the pain I have gone through for most of my life. You don’t know me, but I am a very good lady who has always put her best foot forward. Try to imagine proving your love to the world, being judged, because you love.
    Thank you for reading my thoughts.

  • marriea

    I’m not Jewish. In my heart I really don’t have an obviously religious affiliation. I was however reared a Christain.
    Many years ago I had an epiphany in my views about homosexuality, which weren’t nice.
    But I was forced to look at my views in a new light and have learned to accept the fact that as a heterosexual, I could never understand homosexuality from my prospective. So I learned to look at it from a homosexuals point of view. There are two people who love and respect each other. And more than anything else, the Bible is about people learning to love and respect another person or persons. I could never understand the machanics of a gay relationship, which is how most people romanticize relationships, somewhat like magnets. But this enlightenment that I experienced asked me, what is it about gays that you dislike?, and I answered ‘what they do in bed, to which this enlightenment replied, ‘then what is your mind doing in their bedroom in the first place.
    There are many things in life that I don’t understand, but then maybe I’m not supposed to. A gay lifestyle is not about me, it’s about the two person involved in that realtionship. Their relationship won’t and doesn’t keep me from doing the things I enjoy in a heterosexual relationships. And it is not for me to judge what anyone else relationship show or not be. There are many heterosexual relationship that end up in disaster or are disastereous, yet we just view them as a relationship gone bad or wrong. Yet many homosexual relationships have remained constant regardless.
    As far as Leviticus is concerned, it is obvious that the people of the day had concerns and questions about gay realtionship way back when and didn’t understand it. Then as now, when folks don’t understand something, it is viewed as abhorrent or bad. I often wonder however, if people view homosexual relationships negatively because Leviticus says they should, or because they actually feel it is wrong.
    And if they view it as wrong, then why…there are two mortals who love and respect each other. What’s wrong with that.

  • A wonderful lady

    I appreciate the topic on the subject of homosexuality. Thank you for being open to all subjects.
    I for one believe in love. I am gay, female, 45 years old, and yes, often at times I wished I wasn’t, because so much of society betrays my spirit (me) because of who I am. Would it be the easy way out to pretend I am not gay so I am accepted? Are you better than me to decide who I should be? I should never have to prove my self worth or innocence, my sincerity or my values in life. But that is sadly not the case in life/society. As, I have been cast aside as if I am deranged and should be thrown into the dungeon. Do you know how much that hurts me? I understand people judge, people relate to the “law” of religion and I respect that so much. I do too, and I also love with all my heart and soul, my great creator. Therefore, my mind is naturally open to all people.
    Because of society that makes laws based on Leviticus, or if other people feel they are based on other religious material, it definitely has impacted my life (I would say with negativity as a whole and many lonely times, even now.) I say this because my only dream that I have cherished since I was old enough to know the dream of “love” happened, but never happened in the “real world life”, because someone else chose, now, and many generations ago to prevent me from truly being me. The person that I loved dearly and sincerely desired to have my life with, ended because of this.
    I personally believe that text can be taken into different views….. And my view of Leviticus 18:22, “Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman” is perhaps: we should not lie with the same sex when one is not in their right mind or not having a sobering mind. Same holds true to the opposite sex. So it means: don’t do something that will benefit the greedy mind, put you first or hurt others. The same goes with: do not lie or cheat or steal if it falsely benefits you.
    Love is a natural emotion, the one most truest emotion that portrays all humankind. It is most essential to life. Without it, we can not survive. So let us think about that for once, next time judgment comes from you, from me, near or afar or from texts or opinions.
    AND remember: love is absolutely essential to our life, and should never be denied to any person. Let us all believe in it!
    For those of you read my post, who are happily in love, in a “heterosexual” relationship, imagine…really try to imagine, that you are me and the pain I have gone through for most of my life. You don’t know me, but I am a very good lady who has always put her best foot forward. Try to imagine proving your love to the world, being judged, because you love.
    Thank you for reading my thoughts.

  • Butch

    The word “homosexuality” has always been a touchy subject for quite a lot oMot –
    Do not lie with a male as one lies with a woman; it is an abomination.
    This statement also insists that a man should NOT lie with another woman because you too will committ sins of the flesh. But people all think this is great. A man will say “I’m a real man, I had 10 women (for example) today. And to his fellow friends it makes him sound like a real stud for the day.
    But let a man or woman say he had sex with another man or woman, well you would think it is the end of the world.
    You will find that most gay people will not brag about who or how many people they have sex; but you will find that a “so called” straight guy will “brag” all over town that he laid this certain woman, but that is ok, I guess!!!???
    I don’t believe that God put us here to all be the same. This has been a hertosexual and a homosexual world for centuries. It is not something that just popped up all of a sudden. There is NOTHING wrong with having gay couples walking together in public, going shopping or going to bars in public. Is this all a he-man and she-woman world??? We were all put here for a reason and God is the only One that knows why? God made each one of us different. How can it be a sin if you were created by God? Just like everyone else. God made us all special and the day we were born our course in life began. God made us all to love one another, and not to judge someone else because of their preference, their color, or religion.
    We all need to love one another and accept that everyone is a different individual. An individual that God has created from His Own Likeness and Image.
    There has been so much violence with so called “straight” men in this world. As soon as they find out someone is gay, they want to beat the heck out of them. Why??? So they can show how much of a man they really are??? No, because these people are actually living the life that was meant to be for them and many people are jealous and many of them because they hide their own men-feelings inside and can’t figure out what to do with them.
    Years ago, when I was much younger, I was friends with a few prostitutes, they were the nicest and kindest women I knew. I’m not saying that life is absolutely right, but for them it was, and I think we should learn to accept that each and everyone of us are different. So that’s how they make their living, it’s better than being on welfare and food stamps. Right? Deep down inside they are descent women who have lost themselves along the way. These women have a right to decide what to do with their lives and bodies, they are the only ones that have to answer to God for their own sins, they don’t have to answer to you or owe you anything, right?
    Remember, God loves us all equally and that He created us to His Own Image and Likeness. So then why does society have to condemn so many people??? Learn to love your Brothers and Sisters in Christ!!!

  • My Business, My Life, My Love

    Not to sound selfish, but why are you questioning what isn’t yours?

  • dee

    In all fairness ,Why was Jesus sent to us? Read your bibles.Regardless as to what we think,what does the word say.We as people want to do things our way, but GOD, butGOD,will not except what we throw at him. We will ALL know on that day who was right. If you know you are right,why do you have to fight so hard to make people believe it. Your sexuality is between God and u.

  • PT

    Leviticus is not the only vers to talk about this. It is also labeled as sin in the NT. We love the people but not the sin. If they don’t repent and turn from it they will go to Hell. That is not being mean. It is just the Truth!

  • em

    I thank you to for writing about this I’m not gay and I’m not concern with a person’s sex habits it’s the soul. That is what THE HEAVENLY FATHER watches, people say that they are not ashame of who they are but the body dies along with the habits the soul is important. It is not for us to judge the habits of people, but for too try and obey the LAWS OF GOD.

  • Ron

    It says in the Bible very clearly, ‘Homosexuality is a sin, a man shall not lay with a man as one does with a women, a women shall not lay with a women as one does with a man, this is a blaspheme the prescibed penalty? Death. It shouldn’t take a brain scientist to understand this. And it makes sense, if it ways acceptable to God then in the Garden of Eden he also would’ve put 2 Men and 2 Women together.

  • http://www.thetruthbemadeknown.com Zee

    Homosexuality is a sin! It is not the only sin, but it is one just the same. No matter how one tries to justify their actions, and/or desires-it is wrong. Theoretically and Theologically, we have the law(s); the Ten Commandments; and the seven deadly sin (created and generated by some Pope-I believe in the mid to late fifteenth/sixteenth century). I sin when I overeat. I sin when I lust. I sin when I become too prideful or angry. It is a fact that I sin, therefore I repent of my sins daily, and sometimes at night before I close my eyes to sleep. Homosexuality is a sin. The sooner this fact (according to the Bible), the sooner those who commit this sin without repentance in their hearts will know that it is wrong. We as a society have turned lukewarm to the words of God (if we accept what the bible teaches as his truths) and now accept homosexuality as a way of life; however, that does not make it right.

  • Andrea

    I dont understand why it is any of your guy’s business who is sleeping with whom! If your not gay, then get over it. No one is asking you to go to hell for the person that is gay, if that is where they are even going. I myself am not gay, but my brother is, and we go to church every Sun. and Wed. and so far he has not been struck by lightning, burst into flames, or any other such things. Nor have I for walking beside him or sitting with him in the pew. The bible also says: “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” Matthew 7;1. In other words shut up already. God will decide who goes to Heaven not you.

  • Sexually Abused Males and Females

    The Biblical male or female reads Leviticus and God’s truth convicts him or her righteously, compassionately, Lovingly and mercifully. We males and females who are survivors of sexual abuse know how our desire to love and to be loved drives us to behave and perform homosexual “acts” which we really know are wrong. Yet, we battle to find one person of the opposite sex who can truly love us for who we really are and for the “healing wounded” and all that goes into this healing process. It is very long and arduous and covers the entire spectrum of human emotion – this is the underlying “drive” and the physical pain that accompanies this process is real and draining. I cannot fully tell everyone what this is like and how this affects me daily and the incredible loneliness that I live with each and every day. I am a child of God, I am loved by God and I am loved!!! I pray that God continues to help all of us survivors to be restored and grant us an eternal supply of courage to face each new day and all the sufferings along life’s journey. I pray that God will fill our lives with a seven-fold measure of His Love, His Faith and His Hope!!! I also pray that God will take all our pasts and put them to rest once and for all!!! We know what is God pleasing and what is not pleasing to God. We are created in His Image and our bodies are not our own – they belong to God and He expects us to remember that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit who dwells within us by God’s very hand when He knit us together in our mother’s womb and our Spiritual sacrifice back to God is to live a chaste, upright and obedient life that is pleasing to God – live a disciplined, self- controlled and pure sexual life between one man and one women. That is our challenge to live lives of God’s truth. It is not easy and sometimes we fall and God picks us up and pulls into His arms and holds us in His Unconditional love for eternity. We must repent and confess our sins to God with a broken and contrite heart and spirit and God has forgiven our iniquities just as He promises in His One True Inerrant Word. God alone is judge and no human can ever judge any other human. Seek God’s will and pray for those who persecute or judge you and may God show His mercy in our lives.

  • Neale Adams

    Of course homosexuality was a sin in ancient Palestine. Hey, if you lie with a man as with a woman, you don’t produce any kids. And in a world where half the kids did before they’re 10 or so, that leaves the tribe without enough people to hold off the competition, the Philistines. But the world has changed, and over- not underpopulation is the threat. Besides, lots of gay couples will take care of kids – those the heteros don’t want. So what do we say about that verse in Leviticus? The same thing we do with the verses that deal with stoning kids who insult you, getting a tattoo (prohibited!), the death penalty for both adulterer and adulteress, and so forth. This was a legal code for an ancient tribe. There’s a lot that’s interesting and good in it. There’s a lot that’s not all that relevant today. We have to work out our own salvation (and codes) today.

  • Anonymous

    I somewhat agree with this Rabbi. There are many sins, including “abominations” mentioned in the Bible that people commit today & everyday of their lives. The Bible even says in some form that if someone gets remarried they are committing adultery–think how many of those possible “abominations” are accepted if that’s the case. What about coveting? I’ve seen a lot of people “jonesing” for what their neighbor / family / friend has (jobs, cars, houses, money, etc.). What about murder? Everyone is so laid back about abortion these day–womens’ rights and all that, please! If you are gay, then you will have to stand before GOD one day like everyone else & answer for whether that may be right or wrong. Aren’t there more important things for this country to worry about than DADT? Jobs, Healthcare, Starving / Homeless children & people all over the world–Quit Gay-Hating, and DO something with your lives that counts for JESUS. HE LOVED everyone, even the Most Sinful among us–enough to give his life for us all–gay or not! Spread the LOVE, not your HATE, & watch for the miracles that will happen!

  • Todd Lambert

    All I have to go by is what the Bible say’s and it say’s it’s wrong. It also tells me when someone is doing wrong then I should tell them in a kind loving way. If they choose to continue then I can seperate myself if I want to but that I should continue to pray for them. I believe it is wrong but to treat them badly because of it is equally wrong in my opinion. I know gay people and the ones I know are very nice people and my concern for them is the life after. I want us all to go to Heaven and hurt for those who I think may not make it. It’s Gods job to judge them not mine but he did give me the ability to read and understand what I read and I still think it’s wrong so I pray for them and will continue to treat them as I want to be treated. I think that’s what my Father would want me to do.

  • Anon

    Satan can come as an angel of light. God says separate your self from among them. This applies to those who do not strive to live with in His will. Its one thing to love those who want to come out of the wayward way, but if their only objective is to deceive you with hopes of imbibing you into their wayward lifestyle. Is it wise to love or would it be wiser to rebuke without hate? The calling for dealing with gay issues isn’t for every God fearing being, thus it is wise to stay away from that wayward man or woman, the same as it would be to stay away from lets say a drug dealer. Personally I don’t view the gay’s choice to be gay, any different from the dealer’s choice to deal. However every circumstance is different as with every sinner and their sin. The act itself is condemed, but the actor’s final judgement is left up to God. Although the Word clearly states that the wages of sin is death. Ultimately, if one has no covering that is the Grace of God then he/she is in fact headed for destruction. Still and yet the covering is not a license to sin, but merely the insurance for genuine effort, as we all fall short. The insurance investigator won’t cover the loss, if the stipulations of the policy aren’t met. Thus neither will God. So, if one doesn’t believe his/her sin is in fact a sin. Then what?

  • Anonymous

    I am a Christian woman new to reading the bible and I have just recently recommitted my life to Christ. I have had homosexual thoughts and I feel absolutely ashamed of them. I don’t codemn others for being gay, but when it comes to myself I can’t accept that it could be a possibility. I believe that Satan has put these lustful thoughts in my head. When it comes to a man I can see myself in a relationship with him, but never with a woman. I only lust over women (not a lot, but enough to bother me) and couldn’t see myself in a relationship with one. This leads me to believe that these feelings are not from God. I don’t know if that makes homosexuality a sin…but for me it does. God is the ultimate judge so I cannot say either way. I just know that for me it doesn’t feel right and I wish these thoughts would go away.

  • Dennis Moore

    Hey Rabbi the word of GOD means just what is says and it ant going to change for you just because you say so. It means just what is says if it Hairlips the Devil and ever Deamon in hell. Maybe you need to go back to your Bible School. Sounds like you got your Credentials from out of a crackerjacks Box Bishop J. Dennis Moore.

  • Paul M

    1) Deuteronomy 24:4 says it is an “abomination” for a divorced couple to re-marry each other if after their initial divorce the wife got married and divorced again (was “defiled”). So, the storied romance between Robert Wagner and Nathalie Wood was the celebration of a defiled woman and an abomination of a union, I guess; surely righteous heterosexuals would find the Hollywood love story to be viscerally revolting, given its prohibition and its designation — “abomination.” Right?
    2) No passage in the Bible prohibits (or mentions) lesbian sex. Leviticus 18:22 refers only to men. As Leviticus 18:23 prohibits a woman from having sex with an animal, it is hard to believe the failure to mention lesbian sex was an omission driven by naivete. (The British Parliament declined to outlaw lesbian sex in the 1800s when it criminalized male homosexual conduct. The apocryphal explanation is that Queen Victoria refused to believe women would engage in such behavior, but is far more clear that the pious Anglicans recognized that the Bible was silent on the issue, an example they decided to follow–in the legislation, at least.)
    3) Romans 1:26 refers not to lesbian sex, but to women engaging in non-procreative sex with men (the readers of this comment can figure that one out for themselves). All other mentions of “homosexuality” in the New Testament refer (in the original Greek, at least) to male-male sexual conduct. If the Bible is the inerrant word of God, then is the Bible’s failure to condemn lesbian sex a “mistake” made by God? (No.)

  • Deacon Ause Dyer

    Praise the Lord!
    Why the need for all this chatter about lesbianism being exmpt from
    GODS LAW,when it is not! Go back and read GODS WORD AGAIN!
    Gen. 1:26 is the foundation for the prohibition:” and he {GOD} created man after his own image and likeness…….created he them’both Male AND FEMALE…Stop right there! IS GOD a Spirit?
    Was woman FORMED FROM THE RIB OF MAN ? IS MAN most used in the plural context that is representive of mankind collectivly?
    The Law of prohibition in Lev.18:22 refers to man collectivly.
    Now go to Matt.19:4b,5,6a for your proof text!
    There is no need to mention lesbianism,because woman,being formed from man is automaticll included.

  • http://aol. Alan Plum

    I’m impressed with your point of view, Brad, and find it thoughtful and humane. And for those, like me, that think most religion is hooey, I’m still engaged enough to compliment a good notion.

  • Misty

    The Bible also commands us to love the sinner, not the sin. So to persecute and demean those who may be struggling with “rights” and “wrong” according to scripture could be depicted as going against God’s word. Why is it that lesbians / gays are chastised for following their hearts, but adulterers are welcomed into a church with open and loving arms? Seems like a double standard – we, as Christians – cannot pick and choose what we would believe to be true in God’s inerrant word. Either it’s “right” or it’s “wrong” – BUT regardless we are to LOVE ALL others!

  • Darcy

    If it says what it says then it is not meant to be. How hard is that to understand. It’s very straightforward and the truth is the only ones who want to pick it apart should YOUR FOR-WARNED. Why discuss it at all if your going to try to sugar coat it with this and that? Your scarier than the word itself. I won’t pick it apart like a piece of chicken because I see what it says and I understand it. I should pray for the ones who do not.

  • Nelsena

    I too am a born again Spiritual Christian and a lesbian. No. 1 God is love and also a respecter of persons (quote may not be in its right form). Now, No.2, God states, judge not lest ye be judged; No.3 every individual shall bow before the Lord, both those in the grave and alive, be it believer or non-believer, and we have to answer for ourselves what we have done in our physical, spiritual bodies while here on God’s green earth. Again, No.4 God is no respecter of persons and He also states that the tongue is an unruly member defiling the whole body, because speak without love and thought. So when I see ministers, deacons, pastors, whoever claims to be a leader of the house of God be so condesending and unrespectful to another leader of the house of God, it is the same reasons why there are more sinners in the house than there are outside of it. We are suppose to love everyone and hate the sins but we pick and choose which sins it is to hate and tear down the people involved in those sins. My last point, No.5 is for all to remember, God said He will judge first those in the church, meaning all you who set the standards in your church but don’t abide by the guidance and directions of the Lord you proclaim to serve. May God truly Bless each and everyone of us until HIS coming when we will answer for ourselves. LOVE, HOPE, JOY & PEACE, May you be Bless.

  • http://prop1.org/protest/elijah/nature.htm Elijah A, Alexander, Jr

    Homosexuality is no more complex for me than Heterosexuality because of correctly interpreting Genesis 1 and 2. Both genders were MADE to multiply in 1, a single gender FORMED and divided to form another gender to prevent its being alone, in 2. After that decree the birds and animals were FORMED but not divided to produce genders, then named by the man.
    In seeing them living in groups and mating the man desired to live like them and went to sleep thinking about it, dreamed why he should not, awoke to the presence of another, called it woven from him but failed to ask the voice the meaning. The meaning, man would have to allow either their femininity or masculinity to remain dormant while the other flourished creating opposite attractions to live in groups, realized where it say “a man shall… become one flesh”, no two bodies can integrate and become one.
    It does not designate which attribute either gender would develop therefore, if some of both genders develop opposite “gender attributes” the opposite attraction will still be in place and the sexual urge it produces by pulling through the flesh will still be there. By realizing the cause for man’s sex for pleasure we can realize the cause of homosexuality has the same origin.

  • PAMMY

    I am compassionate to anyone that finds themselves wrestling with a situation that is causing conflict within themselves and God. Truth is, we all have family members that we love who are living a homosexual/gay lifestlye. Just because we love them and treat them with respect does not make them exempt from God’s displeasure of their sins. We are not wise enough to decide whether God’s expression of what being pure to Him means. Seems to me that most time we are debating whether God is being fair about what He wants us to do or not to do. That includes everthing the the bible says is wrong. Self-discipline is hard but necessary. Some things that our flesh desires is not healthy for our souls. Period. Just because God loves us doesn’t mean that we can do whatever we feel is ok. I know it is easier said than done but it is possible. Let us pray that our hearts will be cleansed from anything that is displeasing to Him. We owe it to ourselves. There is a time called eternity and our actions determine how we spend it. It is not His will that any of us perish into darkness but He cannot allow anything unpure into His kingdom. Lovingly Pammy

  • Angela

    You cannot say you are a born again Christian if you are a practising homosexual or lesbian. I am very sorry but the Bible teaches very strongly against these acts and it is very clear. If you were either of these, and became a born again Christian and gave up these acts, then that is a different situation. I believe people who teach the Scriptures should not be afraid to teach the truth, it clears the air and people are free because they know where they stand, and God is to be feared. If God says something, do it. If you can’t obey, don’t waste your time. I have friends who are homosexuals, and lesbians, yes they are human beings just the same as us, and I do not condemn them, but the have to know what the Bible actually teach on the subject and that is NO! Sin is sin, whether this, adultery or whatever is not right, we cannot stand in the presence of God because He will not accept sin in any form. Below us just one extract I read recently.
    All sin is bad (I Jn. 3: 4, Isa. 59: 1, 2). Some sin, however, is suggestive of a greater degree of depravity and rebellion. We must remember God does not always see things as man does (Lk. 16: 14, 15). The foregoing references are often not appreciated today – “You are judgmental and too intolerant,” we hear. However, God’s word remains true, whether we like it or not! Man may laugh at the above, but such is a repulsive odor in the nostrils of God. More and more today, the “respectable clergy” is found justifying matters such as homosexuality and dishonesty. How sad and contrary to God’s pronouncements!www.biblequestions.org/Archives/BQAR071.htm

  • Jim

    Leviticus isn’t the only place this is mentioned..but never the less…The Holy Bible is clear on the issue…I don’t see a scenario where you’re going to just blurt out a scripture at someone as the writer suggests here…If you are forced to confront someone about it..say a family member or close friend…I think a study of the Word of God is in order…not just pulling out a scripture…I agree there…but there is no way to “re word” God’s Word…It stands on it’s own…but should be studied thoroughly…When someone receives the Spirit…”Right and Wrong” comes naturally….and no one needs to explain it

  • Brenda

    In our society now, people think it’s ok to be gay,and the world is being sympathetic when it comes to homosexuals, how do we love the person who is sinning? They think its ok to practice being homosexual, and that God doesnt see them.Let us discern between judging and love! We need to tell them that this is wrong in the eyes of God, it is sin to him, and they that do such things will answer to the Almighty, so No its not ok to sin, Jesus said to the sinners to repent and turn away from thier wicked ways, and to seek Gods help and his mercy.These words came from God not from me, and I will help get the gospel out there to make others aware that soon Jesus Christ will return to earth for people who love him that do his will!

  • Panthera

    Fascinating.
    Rabbi Hirschfield, I think you have an answer, of sorts.
    Reading through these now 200+ comments, I see a few patterns which repeat themselves in the postings of the conservatives, mainly Christians.
    1) Only those aspects of Judaism which are compatible with conservative American political and economic thought apply to Christians, the rest stops with…well, goodness me, I guess it stops with that long-haired, sandal-wearing carpenter, good-ole’-what’s-his-name, well never mind, that was 2,000 some-odd years ago and he was only a Jew after all, not a “true Christian”.
    2) Both text taken from the Torah and the Christian Biblical versions of the Books of Moses as well as the New Testament are used in the translation which suits the needs of the fundamentalists. I don’t recall reading the term “homosexual” in the Latin, German or Elizabethan…but why let the real text stop you from making your own up?
    3) Laws laid down in Leviticus only apply to both Jews and Christians when convenient, i.e: Homosexuality. Wearing mixed fibers, eating crustacians, nope – those laws only apply to Jews, not Christians. Huh?! How terribly convenient!
    4) Since there is no getting around the “all sins are equally bad because they distance us from God” aspect of the Bible, the most incredible arguments are found – my second best personal favorite is the “homosexuality is rebellion against God” one. Yeah, um, right. Innate, immutable characteristics are rebellion. Got it.
    5) Also to be found, these wonderful excuses to explain why, when Jesus said it was not given to us to judge, He really meant it was given to fundamentalist, evangelical, conservative Christians to judge.
    There is no truth, only hatred and wilful spite to be found in conservative Christians. They have no desire to learn, either from Judaism (as in: Jesus, remember him? His followers didn’t call him Rabi for no reason) nor from the Christian Bible nor from the natural sciences.
    They have picked gays as their victims and will not let up from persecuting us until either the laws change or they find a way to torture and murder us with government approval.
    Oh, my personal favorite, can’t forget that: “Homosexuals can’t be real Christians.” Murderers, child-rapists, every single person on earth, no matter their sin or transgression can be a Christian, just not gays.
    Wouldn’t it be better to leave that decision up to God?
    Oh, right, there I go again leaving judgement to my Creator.
    Sorry.

  • Jeff Schade

    In reading many of the comments to this initial post (which I found to be very interesting), it seems that many people seem to commit a rather grievous error: interpreting the Bible and deciding exactly what it means, while lambasting others for doing exactly that.
    I am not a scholar, however I have read enough Biblical research and studies by various people to suggest that the phrase in question is likely misinterpreted. As with society, language changes over time, and while the translation does state (roughly) that man “shall not lie with another man as he does a woman” there is very little evidence to suggest this is in reference to “homosexuality” or rather to some other act (in this case, one scholar has suggested it was a prohibition against sexual acts that were used to humiliate one’s enemies in war).
    Then again, who am I to suggest that I know what is implied by this meaning. I do not. I am not God, nor do I claim to be him or to speak for him or to have unequivocal evidence as to what was meant in this passage.
    I must again point out the common rebuttals that God also prohibited many other acts (divorce-remarriage, women speaking during services, cutting of one’s hair/beard, tattoos and piercings), yet I know many religious people do not observe these, why? Because it is inconvenient to adhere to a strict law but much easier to point the finger at others and declare THEY are the sinners.

  • Jeff Schade

    In continuing to read some of the comments, I’m compelled to respond to this from Neshama:
    “. . . one thing hasn’t changed and that is G-d! In the Bible G-d states that He doesn’t change His point of view. G-d states that Homosexuality is an abomination. The word abomination is described as extreme hatred and or loathing. So it’s pretty self explanatory.”
    That’s interesting. I’ve read the Bible, and I don’t recall ever reading the word “homosexual”. And, as has been more eloquently stated earlier, the word “abomination” is in fact the translation of a word that is also used to apply to eating certain “unclean” foods.
    Before you make broad statements and declare with such authority, perhaps you should understand the context of what you are stating.

  • Panthera

    Not so “schade”, Jeff Schade!
    I think you got it. It is really terrible convenient, is it not, that the one “sin” which the conservative heterosexual Christians are free of is the one which they really go after.
    The others, hey, no hu-hu.
    Speaking of which, doesn’t Stephen Baldwin have tattoos? Why, yes he does. Also does really Christian roles in film involving three-way sex with other men and killing people in cold-blood.
    Oh, but, how could I forget? He’s a gen-u-whine Christian, ’cause he says he is, so send him your money!

  • Edith

    One day, you will find that homosexuality is not a sin, but rather a problem of genetics. Since the Bible was written by conceptual means as well as directly from God, most people of that day never heard of genetics, thus the condemnation—someone different to punish. As long as the moral law is kept (which heteros don’t do very well at either), the relationship is not a sin. Who cares how we love one another as long as we are faithful. Married heteros do things sexually that are “unnatural” also, certainly not just Paul’s way.

  • Panthera

    Good point, Edith!
    Of course, there are quite a few rational arguments suggesting that homosexuality persists among all high-order mammals because it leads to survival of the species…as do grandmothers.
    Whoops, forgot – I’m a gay man, so my Savior, Jesus Christ was only pretending when he said I was saved.
    And you, you’re even worse – you’re a woman who dares to use her God-given brain!
    Gah – cooties! Cover the childrens’ ears and clean the monitor. Femlibers and teh gays are daring to disagree with the haters!

  • Jeff Schade

    Unfortunately, Panthera, the conservative Christian/fundamentalists are far too extreme in their rhetoric to even listen to our logical arguments. I see it something like this:
    Normal (rational) Human
    1. Has belief/opinion
    2. Hears contrary evidence
    3. Checks evidence against belief/reviews source of evidence (discarding if not a reliable source)
    4. If (reliable) contrary evidence is supported, normal (rational) human being modifies his/her belief/opinion.
    Fundamentalist
    1. Has belief/opinion, claims it is irrefutable (often because “God said so” as the Fundamentalist has a direct line to God at all times)
    2. Hears contrary evidence
    3. Ignores contrary evidence claiming that the Bible says differently (despite the fact that most Fundamentalists don’t really know everything that is in their Bible nor do they have any understanding of translation or the changing of society and language over time).
    Repeat ad naseum.

  • PAMMY

    Wow!!!!!!!! stating things with great intellect doesn’t change God’s word. Just say that the abnormal fundamentalist has it right….are you willing to take that chance? We hear your intelligent rhetoric but the logic of man is far too dismal for the thoughts of God. You cannot use the faults of weak Christians as grounds to say that God’s way is not perfect even when the imperfect stumble at it. Stop using the fault of others to justify sin. It is so plainly stated that there is no need to dissect it. We will all be judged for our own actions and can blame no one else if we have chosen to disobey the truth. No matter how bad the fundamentalist are, God is still righteous.

  • Panthera

    Jeff, that pretty well sums it up.
    If the fundamentalist-conservative-evangelical, etc. Christians really cared about loving the Lord and loving each other (two minor, throw-away commandments, nothing really worth noting) then they would take a look at what the Bible really says about sexuality and bless monogamous gay relationships, welcome transgender people and stop hating.
    Ah, but it is so much easier to hate than to love. Especially when you can pretend the hatred is love.
    Goodness, didn’t Dr. Göbbels have something similar to say on that topic? Or was it von Rippentrop…I always confuse them with Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell.
    Same language, just different words: Defining one’s love of God through hatred of all others.

  • Panthera

    Pammy,
    The trouble is, it is not so plainly stated as the haters pretend it is.
    Let’s look at one of the silliest claims they have made here over the last 200+ postings, that Sodom was destroyed because of teh gayz.
    Using either the Vulgate or the King James Version, or the Luther Bible, please tell me exactly where one word is spoken of homosexuality being the cause for destruction?
    Oh, and while you are at it, what do you think about Lot offering his virgin daughters to be raped as long as the crowd goes away and leaves him alone?

  • Germaine

    It is not hate to warn people of the error of their way. For a sincere, Bible-believing Christian to just wink at the horrendous sin of homosexuality, along with perversions from the way God created things to be, means that person will be held accountable,(the Christian) when they stand before a holy God in judgment !!! God Bar-B-Qued the homosexuals of Sodom and Gomorrah. He is no more pleased with the effeminate and “abusers of themselves with mankind” today, as he was then. We all are commanded to be “Born Again”, so that all sins we have committed will be forgiven and washed away, in the blood of jesus.

  • Panthera

    Germaine,
    I don’t even know where to begin.
    Hmm, let’s start with “horrendous sin of homosexuality”.
    Pretending for the nonce that it were sin (it isn’t), in what way is my loving, monogamous, faithful, true, legal marriage to my husband “horrendous sin” and eating shrimp or wearing poly-blend clothes or leaving your wife, who is dying of cancer for the girl you’re banging on the side (can you say Newt, the darling of all your fundamentalist Christians? Sure you can!)
    Seriously – you tell me why my love is a “horrendous sin” while all the other things you fundamentalist Christians don’t consider to be sins like adultery and divorce and torturing captives.

  • Gwyddion9

    Panthera,
    That is something I’ve always wondered about, even when I was a teenager and still Christian.
    Why would you give ‘gay men’ a woman? It makes no sense at all. As a gay man, I love my female friends, dearly but the thought of sex with a woman…disgusting! But hey, someone is going to and enjoy it as well.
    Makes the world go round.
    As it has already been mentioned in this discussion, not all Christians agree with the conservative version or outlook of gays and Leviticus. I’ve often wondered why so many conservative Christians are concerned about what goes on in my bedroom.
    Since we’re discussing Abominations’, lets also touch on eating seafood that doesn’t have scales, what about pork? wearing clothes with mixed fibers, stoning a rebellious child at the city wall and my favorite, when a woman goes into her period, do they also put her in a tent in the back yard because she’s no longer clean and ANY THING she touches is now unclean and has to be ritually cleaned? These are simply a few of the “abomination” that conservative Christians convienently look over when discussion homosexuality. Obviously, it’s all about what they want to discuss as being bad.
    Conservative Christians, imo, are simply cafeteria Christians, picking and choosing what they like and don’t like.
    Of course my usual term for such Christians is the name “American Taliban”. I love it as it fits them to a tee.

  • Panthera

    Gwyddion9,
    I think it says a lot about the mentality of these haters.
    To their minds (or whatever it is they use for one), women are of no value. Therefore, it is of no account that the woman suffer horribly by being yoked to a gay man. All that matters is that he shoots it in the right place and produces new cannon-fodder for their wars of aggression.
    Cultures which treat women and dogs badly always treat gays like dirt and their children not much better.
    Sad. And I mean sad in the ironic sense.
    They refuse to see what is before their faces: We don’t reject marriage, we don’t reject family, we don’t reject women.
    We just aren’t capable of loving a woman as she deserves to be love. We are, however, designed by God to love a man.
    It’s a particular form of mental illness of which they suffer. Take a look at the discussions ongoing over global warming and the oil-slick growing in the Golf of Mexico.
    The number of conservative Christians who reject reality in those discussions is mind-boggling.
    Oh, but wait – these are the people who actually believe Eyjafjallajökull went off to punish Europe for America finally getting minimal health-care protection for her weakest citizens.

  • PAMMY

    Panthera,
    there are things that I tell my children they are wrong to do. Does that mean that I don’t love them? Of course not.I desire for them to make the best choices in life. If it seems to you that fundamental Christians are speaking in hatred, I dare say that maybe a few will, maybe it is because it hurts each of us to hear that something we really want is not permissable. But if you have decided that we are wrong, you must live by your own convictions. If you are right then you loose nothing. If we are right you loose your soul. Just a thought. By no means am I trying to be rude or insensitive. I wish that all would live in peace and God’s will. Pammy

  • Panthera

    Pammy,
    What on earth makes you seriously believe that God requires heterosexuality as a basis for salvation?

  • PAMMY

    Panthera,
    Jesus is the basis of salvation. Our choices determine if we will be obedient to God. As I fore stated, you have a right to live by your own convictions. Only standing before God will dissolve this issue for some. I don’t question why homosexuality is not permissible. I just accept His will. I pray that you don’t feel hatred from my statements; only love and concern. Even if you feel that I am misguided in my thoughts…

  • Panthera

    Pammy,
    Where, specifically, does the Bible state that homosexuality is the one “sin” which precludes being saved?

  • PAMMY

    26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
    27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
    ROMANS 1:26-27 KJV

  • Panthera

    Pammy, thank you.
    Romans was written to address the problem of people turning aside from worshiping God to following the sects which were rampant in that city at that time.
    It doesn’t address my monogamous, true, loyal, faithful partnership and legal marriage – we’ve been together for nearly 27 years.
    Second, how does this affect the principle of salvation?
    Let’s look at some other verses and see what you have to say to them:
    DEUTERONOMY 22:13-21
    If it is discovered that a bride is not a virgin, the Bible demands that she be executed by stoning immediately.
    DEUTERONOMY 22:22
    If a married person has sex with someone else’s husband or wife, the Bible commands that both adulterers be stoned to death.
    MARK 10:1-12
    Divorce is strictly forbidden in both Testaments, as is remarriage of anyone who has been divorced.
    LEVITICUS 18:19
    The Bible forbids a married couple from having sexual intercourse during a woman’s period. If they disobey, both shall be executed.
    MARK 12:18-27
    If a man dies childless, his widow is ordered by biblical law to have intercourse with each of his brothers in turn until she bears her deceased husband a male heir.
    DEUTERONOMY 25:11-12
    If a man gets into a fight with another man and his wife seeks to rescue her husband by grabbing the enemy’s genitals, her hand shall be cut off and no pity shall be shown her.
    By your logic, why do you not apply those?

  • Cristi

    Sin is sin in God’s eyes, we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. The Bible teaches to love the Lord your God with all your heart mind soul and strength and to love your neighbor as yourself, I like to know what makes one sin bigger than another, the main thing is to show the love of Christ and the Holy Spirit will take care of the rest.

  • Joyce

    I know I don’t know the answer to this question. I know from reading the Bible, that Jesus, was usually found with people of questionable backgrounds, it is not for us to judge, whether you are straight, gay, black, white, etc. Only God will judge, so I will let it up to Him.

  • antonio caetano

    Dear Pammy–@1Cor5, Paul says–
    9I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
    12What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked man from among you.”[b]
    So isn’t christian teaching not to Judge those of some other “group?” Can I assume you would do nothing to force or control those not members of your “group” to behave in accordance with the beliefs of your “group.”
    antonio

  • Lillian

    I believe The Bible is the inspired Word of God, and either people believe it or they don’t. God offers His inviation of salvation through His son, Jesus Christ. It’s a gift, and it’s God’s hand reaching out to everyone; either they accept it or they reject it. It’s not possible to pick and choose the parts of The Bible that we want to believe, or that ‘fit’ us as imperfect human beings.
    It’s our duty as Christians to be a light in a world of darkness and show love and mercy just as Jesus did. All we can do is introduce people to Christ, then it’s up to the Holy Spirit to guide them, and only if people will allow it. We all have free will.
    My guess is that the main reason people don’t want to accept His invitation is they know it would require some changes be made in their own lives, based on the instructions set forth in the Word of God. I have family members who don’t want to hear what God said about homosexuality or any other sexual topic. I believe in prayer and I pray for them daily. It’s up to our Heavenly Father to do what’s best. I don’t question – I just believe.

  • PAMMY

    Panthera,
    I never claimed that the others are not sin. The question was, “Is Homosexuality An Abomination?”. Monogamy is not the issue either. The fact is clearly stated in the above verses…. and yes I’ve read the whole chapter. It is unlawful for a woman-woman or man-man relatinship. I can tell that you also understand the difference in the law of Moses and the grace of the new testament teachings. There are still restrictions and they are clearly defined.
    The salvation principle is this:
    5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
    1John 3:5-7

  • Pastor Andrew Monteiro

    See, I have a problem with the writer of this article, not with the topic, or those that practice homosexuality, but with the view of the writer. He is brillant, and makes a resl and compelling arguement concerning this very sensitive subject. However, it seems to me, that he is suggesting everyone speaks out negatively about homosexuals. I have friends and classmates whose sexual orientation is same sex. I treat them with respect and love, even though I am a member of the clergy. I never speak out against them when I am among them, and that is quite often. I actually enjoy their company very much. However, I am entitled to my opinion about them, as they are entitled about their opinion about me. Having an opinion, especially one based on biblical principles, does not mean one cannot show love. I do it all the time. And by the way, the bible is still right. Sin is still sin!! All sin, every sin, any sin…God loves the sinner, but will always condemn the sin.God judges sin, all sin. Abomination sexually, cognitively,and in other behaviors is still sin. God is perfectly permitted to state sin as sin and in love, with love, so am I!!!

  • Rogers K

    Homosexuality goes against the natural order of nature. What about this we don’t seem to understand, we can all say a “sin is a sin”, and that maybe true, but the punishment is handed down depending on the degree or you might say the severity of the sin. The Bible clearly states this behavior as an abomination. This is like looking forward but walking backwards, you are doomed for trouble if you are confused about where you are, and can’t see where you are going. Many seem to be in denial about this malicious sexual act of misconduct,that some are doing onto others. This perverted sexual behavior is stated as being the defining factor behind the fall of the “Roman Empire” which was one of the strongest empires at that time in our history. With that being true, how long do you think it will take before we as a society face that same issue if we do not become more socially responsible for our acts of unfit behavior, this is wrong and it goes to the core of our very being and existence. We must get control of this behavior, before it gets control of us, and I am certain we will not like the outcome if it takes control of us as individuals or society as a whole. We need to take this much more serious than we are. Get out of this denial, or you might say walking around with blinders on. this is a serious issue we as a society need to fix before to late.
    Thanks

  • DJ

    Rabbi, your post is well stated. When we look to the Word of God, we must look with the purpose of seeing and hearing clearly. Unfortunately, most of us forget that we are all still sinners saved by grace.
    As an ordained elder and pastor, I often find myself having to deal with this issue. My answer is found in the Word: Phil 2.3 says “[Let] nothing [be done] through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.”
    This speaks of the compassion we need to have one for another. As we look to God who created us in His image, we have to show love in order to win them to Christ.
    This is not to excuse the sin of homosexuality, for clearly it is that. But as you stated, there are many sins that fall into the “abominable” category and thus, unless we are going to treat all the same way, we as the body of believers cannot single out this one sin as weighing more than any other.

  • Panthera

    Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
    1John6
    Pammy, by your logic, any sin, whether of omission or commission is proof one is not saved?

  • PAMMY

    Sinneth is to describe a continuing of sin….not repenting and turning away from sin. If you be overtaken in a fault is not the big problem but to continue without the fear of God’s recompence.
    Romans 6
    1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
    2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

  • Panthera

    27Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
    28But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
    29And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    30And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
    31It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
    32But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
    Matthew 5:27-28
    I realize this is only Jesus speaking, not somebody important like Paul or Pat Robertson, just a Jewish guy, but still…
    By this logic, any straight man who ever looks at a woman and gets a rise in his Levi’s is just as guilty of ‘sin’ as am I for my monogamous, loving, committed, faithful true partnership and marriage to my husband.
    What about it all you conservative Christians – why are you attacking my civil and human rights while letting all those straight men in your midst get away with this…or, perhaps, may it be that all you conservative heterosexual men never, ever look at women and experience anything but a remote sense of satisfaction at a satisfactory anatomy?
    Yeah, right.
    Look, whether or not homosexuality is a sin – and there is quite a bit of well researched literature showing that current translations of the Bible do not reflect the original intent in this area – we keep coming back to the question: Why are you attacking me and my marriage? How dare you say I am not saved, I am not a Christian when there are countless sins you commit but don’t get hot under the collar about?
    What are you but hypocrites?

  • Panthera

    Pammy,
    I’ll admit something here – my discipline includes Elizabethan English.
    “Sinneth” encompasses both continuous as well as singular incidents.
    Sorry, but that dawg won’t hunt.
    Let’s, however, pretend you’re right and, further, that homosexuality is a sin (it’s not, just pretending here), by that logic any straight man who continues to look at women lustfully is as guilty as I am, no?

  • Neshama

    This is supposed to be a forum for Jewish people, don’t all of you X-tians have enough of your own forums to post to on the internet and even on Beliefnet? The comparison of Judaism’s interpretation of our Scriptures . . . and the X-tian interpretation of what you call the “Old Testament” is like comparing apples to oranges. There is no comparison.
    First of all you need to learn biblical Hebrew. Then you need to learn how the Rabbonim of the Talmudic period interpreted the scriptures to get the whole picture. I venture to say that most X-tians reject the Talmud and other writings of our Sages. I have heard X-tians say that G-d doesn’t approve of the Talmud because it is not “inspired” teachings of G-d, or wasn’t written by the “holy spirit”. Well for the same reason, I reject the so-called “New Testament”. I have read and studied the “New Testament” and X-tian teachings and done a comparison to the knowledge of Judaism, and I can see that there is no comparison. The “N.T.” is like a piece of swiss cheese, it’s so full of holes you cannot possibly compare it to the teachings of Judaism. So to try and take a portion of the Torah such as the teachings of Levitical Law and try to make sense of it according to what the “N.T.” teaches just cannot be done. I know that Paul (Shaul) says that the Torah was done away with by Jesus. But the Torah says, it is ETERNAL. So who do you believe, Paul or G-d?
    I would not go onto one of your forums and tell you that everything you know about your belief system is wrong according to Judaism, because it wouldn’t make any difference to you. Would you all of the sudden drop everything and say, “Wow, I don’t beleive in Jesus anymore, because this Jewish person just told me that he isn’t real, and that the “N.T.” isn’t real??? How would that work for YOU???
    So, please, don’t try and interpret what G-d is trying to tell me according to YOUR BELIEF SYSTEM! It just doesn’t work, and is a waste of time.
    Yes according to the passage in Leviticus homosexual conduct is NOT accepted by the G-d of the Hebrew Bible. That said, G-d also teaches Jews not to judge others, and to worry about what you are doing not what others are doing. Kindness, and love of your fellow Jew and your fellow man are what is important. For how we judge others is how we will be judged by G-d in the end. This is important because when we go before G-d in the Olam Haba (the next world) we will be judged according to how we have treated others in this life.

  • PAMMY

    Panther,
    Live by your own conscience….I am not here to condemn anyone but sin only. I judge no man but sin has it’s own judgement. I pray that you find the truth that sets you free. Lovingly Pammy

  • Panthera

    Neshama,
    Rabbi Hirschfield has addressed this in the past and clearly stated that this forum is also open to Gentiles.
    No fight is as bitter as a family fight, so I’ll leave you with the delightfully infuriating detail that Christianity, Islam and Judaism all worship the same God.
    He must really be pleased about our mutual antagonism, no?

  • Richard Page

    The writer of this would have you believe God made a mistake when
    he gave holy scripture to be written down, and that someone who has been saved can not live a pure holy life pleasing to God, Even today there are those such as myself, not boasting of my strength, but his grace to help me live celebrant, once I lived saying I was a Christian, but it was like most in this world today, whenever I met someone it wasn’t very long before I was have sex or moving in with them, I would say to myself God understands, he knows I just can’t live alone and not many want to get married without checking out the merchandise first, Get this God will judge this whole world one-day, not some self seeking hypocrite
    with a P.H.D on the wall, All sin starts with a thought, then selfishness, (my needs are greater than serving him) then people like him, (Hey brother its alright)Then action ( the more you do the sin, the more easy it becomes) Then justification ( I was born that way, I’m just overly sexed, God understands)Get this any-any premeditated
    action that you set out to do that is against Gods word is sin.
    And all are an abomination if it involves sex outside of the guild lines written down and ordained by God PERIOD.
    Grace is for those who have been really saved filled with his spirit
    that whenever they do make a mistake they are quickly chasten and fall
    on their knees, ask for forgiveness and STOP the sin they are doing!
    If you are in sin now and want to live a victorious life, admit the sin you are in, believe God will make a way out, God is faithful to help those who have a heart like David, it’s been 5 years for me now,
    and I have been engaged to the most wonderful Christian woman for 3 and a half years now, and it has not been roses but the strength and courage I now have, shows me you can overcome all things in Christ Jesus.
    P.S
    and it’s nice to go to sleep knowing my father watches over me!

  • Rose

    Homosexuality is defined as a grave sin under the sixth and nineth of the Ten Commandments. Since it is such an abomination, it should not be condoned. However, I do believe, the point of the article states not so much about the abomination of Homosexuality but about the compassion we must have for the sinner. We should remember charity for everyone… not just those who have not sinned in our eyes. We all sin in some fashion in the eyes of God. Therefor, let us treat everyone with respect and pray for repentance for those whose grave sins are known to us.

  • Mike

    Rose… the sixth commandment is “Though Shall not Murder” and the ninth is “You Shall Not Bear False Witness.”
    How does homosexuality violate these commandments? What on earth are you talking about?

  • Cindy C

    Neshema, your comments are very valid that Christians do not know as much about your religion as you. However, it might interest you know that Christians received a link to the Rabbi’s message in our emails, probably the same as you. The Books of Moses are not only your Torah, they are also in our Bible. Jesus (Jeshua), who identified himself as a Jew, told us in so many words “Judge not lest ye be judged”. Sounds to me a lot like what you said about not judging others. There is already too much resentment in our world, why promote more by fussing at us for “invading” your space, when the Rabbi’s message was sent to us? Personally, I have made quite a study of the Jewish history and faith, as the basis of what Jesus said.

  • Schooldaze

    Panthera,
    What makes Pammy think that? Most likely the Bible. There are quite a few verses in the New Testament (in addition to what the Jewish Bible says) that list several “behaviors” with the caveat that those who do them will NOT enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Now we don’t have to like what the Bible says, but that doesn’t change what it says.
    EX: “Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.”
    1 Corinthians 6:8-10
    Not picking on anyone, that’s just what it says.

  • http://Petee.bovold@live.com Pete E. Bovold

    An excellent point. For that matter, are we not encouraged in the christian bibles to do what is right and good in the eyes of God and Jesus, too Love first and ask questions later. Do we vue Christ through the eyes of Paul or: Paul through the eyes of Christ? THINK about it!

  • Pete E. Bovold

    The unrighteous would be those who judge! Pharasee?

  • Neshama

    Sorry to sound so hard on X-tians, but I read a lot of posts that sound like they are pushing the “J- saves” line, and I just don’t think that is appropriate for a “Jewish Forum”.
    That said, I know many X-tian’s who are great supporters of the Jewish people and of the Nation of Israel, and they don’t proselytize. Look I know that your hearts are in the right place or you wouldn’t come to a place like this to read. It is though somewhat offensive to my estimation, to constantly talk about the J-man, J says this, and J says that, and J saves if you believe in him, etc. when you know that Jews DO NOT believe in him. As for the part of not judging, I’m talking about a Jewish attitude toward homosexuals. You may not like what they do, but that doesn’t mean that you hate the person. It doesn’t mean that you have to approve of what they do, but you can still treat them with the same respect that you would have for any other human being that you interact with.
    As for the person who commented that Judaism,Islam, and X-tianity all worship the “same god”. I don’t believe that. Islam worships “allah” whose attributes are quite different from the G-d of Israel. X-tian’s also worship a “triune god”, the father,son, & holy ghost. Judaism is very clear in the fact that our G-d is One G-d, and only One G-d. Look at the most important Prayer/Statement of Faith in Judaism, the Shema,which states. . .”Hear Oh Israel, the L-rd is our G-d, the L-rd is One. Blessed be His Holy Name for all eternity.” As far as we Jews are concerned there is only ONE G-D and He is the G-d of all mankind, and the G-d of the Nation of Israel. We Israelites need to get our act together, so the world understands that we are supposed to be a “Light unto the Nations of the World”. One reason that we have been in exile for so long is that we haven’t learned to unite under one Torah and be one people. We need to love each other unconditionally before we start with the rest of the world. I hope this makes sense. Maybe soon we will succeed in loving our fellow Jew as ourself and then, may we merit the rebuilding of the Holy Temple soon in our day! Then everyone will come up to Yerushalayim and worship at the Temple which will be a place of worship for all the nations! Amein

  • http://petee.bovold@live.com Pete E. Bovold

    Are not the Jewish one of “us” in God’s and Jesus’s eyes? YES. Any christian that puts up “that wall” does so out of hate, seperation and not love. I can’t see where Jesus would approve. Bad theology. Sloppy christian thought is Dangerous! God has put up a fence around our Jewish brothers and sisters. That fence, created by GOD, is not a fence that we can use against them. They did not pick that. God did, If you would call yourself a christian, you can’t do that. God, and only God can. If you do not know why God has put a spiritual “FENCE” around the JEWISH then you are not a christian. SORRY, but poor theology, and very poor christianity.

  • JR

    Sorry world… God is right and your opinions will not change His mind.

  • PT

    It is NOT judging someone when you tell them the truth. If I tell you your going to hell because of your sin I am only telling you what the bible says. If I tell you being gay as a woman or man is wrong.. I am stating the truth. It is not an opinion. One must repent (turn away from) their sin if they are Born Again. Yes, we still make mistakes along the way. That is why we live a life of repentance. Thank you for God’s grace BUT it is not a license to sin. The only reason there are so many responses on here is because people are trying to justify their sin. Then they talk about other people and their sin to justify their sin. THE ORIGINAL TOPIC WAS ABOUT HOMOSEXUALITY. GUESS WHAT..IT IS WRONG.

  • marre

    Homosexuality IS an abomination. Like this statement or not, it is a truth given in scripture. Why? Because it is a DISORDERED form of human nature. Man is made for woman and woman is made for man. Can a man love a man or a woman love a woman? Certainly! God is love! We were made to LOVE! For those of us who are ‘heterosexual’, must we LOVE those who claim to be homosexual? ABSOLUTELY! Should a homosexual be ridiculed, harassed, or treated lesser than any human being deserves? ABSOLUTELY NOT! We are always called upon to love everyone…we are to love the sinner…yet, can hate the sin. The ACT of homosexuality IS a sin. It is a TURNING AWAY FROM GOD because it it goes against the natural law that states the intimacy of a sexual act between two people (a man and woman) must be unitive and procreative. A sexual act between two people of the same gender cannot and does not fulfill this natural law. Like it or not, the person who claims to be homosexual is called to live a life of celibacy. Yet, he or she is very much encouraged to be a spiritual mother or father. He or she is more than encouraged to love relationally…they just cannot be sexually intimate. We are all called to sacrifice in our lives. We all have certain crosses to carry. For matters of the heart that we find so grievous, there is always help and Godly counseling. There are also the beautiful sacraments that give us the graces to endure and conquer our life challenges. We are all born with charisms (gifts and talents). Each one of us has different gifts to offer this world. Yet despite our uniquenesses and differences, we share the same purpose in life…and that is to KNOW, LOVE and SERVE the Lord! Should our focus and main thrust in life be this, sexuality would be of a minor concern to our society. Honoring the Lord and having Him as our one and only Lord and Saviour (the First Commandment) and acknowledging the concupiscence we have as a fallen people should align our heart with our soul and put us all onto the right track…HEAVEN!

  • Kathie

    People think being Gay is a choice.
    IT IS NOT A CHOICE.
    It is a harmonal inbalance.
    Who would chose to make there life even more complicated.
    Sometimes people are born with more of one hamone.
    I have an 18 year old son who is gay and believe me he didn’t chose to be that way.
    And in his short 18 years he has went through so much because of peoples preseption on what is wrong or right.
    He didn’t just wake up one day and say I think I’ll be gay NO HE WAS BORN THAT WAY.
    and anyone who say’s other wise is Ignorant.
    God loves my son and there is no one who has the right to say differant.

  • Bryce Stevens

    When a Christian freind came out ot his family, they pointed out all the scriptures that were against homosexuality. To him, it isn’t and nerver has been just about the sex. It has always been about the emotional and physical part of life.
    After listening to how God does’t create this and you aren’t born that way – it’s a choice, the question was then posed…what choice does a hermorphodite have. If they chose to live as a man or a woman or depinding on who they chose as a partner or them, how should we “judge them?” and how does God judge them? Do they have a choice, were they born that way? Maybe it is in how they are – Inside – not so much as on the outside, perhaps like a gay man or woman. I guess only God can really be the judge of that one. (didn’t know what url was – sorry)

  • G

    “Sorry world… God is right and your opinions will not change His mind.”
    Ok JR whose God??, And what is it you do to demonstrates that your God is the one true God?? Miracles?? Do you walk on water? or raise the dead?? You have a book like so many other religions and swear by it, like so many other religions and sure you are right, like somany other religions…in the end you probably demonstrate nothing in your life that is singularly special that demonstrates that yours it the ‘truth’.
    I have never seen someone who hates the sin, love the sinner. It is just a catch phrase to make themselves feel better about their hatred and give them a reason to deny them civil rights, and liberties.
    Tell you what..when you judgemental religious ones find the Ark, prove that adam and eve really existed, find the Garden of eden, then come back and talk about the ‘truth’. And ‘saying things like, Just wait..you’ll see. when J***s comes back you;ll pay,, you;ll be sorry”
    Won’t happen any time soon .

  • Panthera

    Schooldaze,
    You list 1 Corinthians 6:8-10 below a text which is more than a little bit different from the KJV, the Luther Bible, the Vulgate.
    The term “homosexual” is very modern, it is from the 19th century. It does not appear in any text of the Bible except when that Bible has been reworked by someone who decides to alter the older texts to fit their pown, personal needs.
    When someone says “you can’t be a Christian and gay” they are making such a false statement, it is hard to know where to begin. Probably, there is no way to deal with it – just as the Christians who supported enslaving the Negroes used Biblical interpretations to justify it, all one can do is pray they eventually realise that their hatred does only harm.
    We are not asking for special rights. All we want is that you take your religious beliefs out of secular government and stop denying us the civil rights we already possess. That’s all.
    You worship as you like in your Christian church. We worship as we like in ours.
    Neshama, I guess you chose that log-in name to demonstrate nomen non est omen.

  • ExPneuma

    When our father declares himself to Moses in Ex 34:6 he shows all the wonderful qualities of his character. Mercy, Grace, Longsuffering, being abundant in goodness and faithfulness. Keeping kindness, forgiving iniquity (perverseness), and Transgression (revolt or rebellion) yet no exhonerating the guilty..
    This character is his one aspect of his glory, perfected in the resurrection which is the hope of Abraham in whom the world may hope to be blessed by grace.
    The laws, whatever they may be, must be held in this context.
    It is true that not all people are created with the same challenges. We all bear our own challenges.
    Our Creator however has made no mistakes and ought not to be questioned as we are so clearly instructed in Job. Rather, we are given this for his glory. His strength is made perfect in our weaknesses so that no flesh may glory.
    “Truly as I live all the earth will be filled with the glory of the Lord.”
    So it is not about us (humanity), or our self centred perspectives to excuse our weaknesses as too great (which is to deny the strength that we have in him – We have not been given a spirit of timidity, but of power and of love and of self control – 2Tim 1:7) or worse, acceptable in his sight (should we sin that grace may abound?).
    Being imperfect we forget our own position of weakness. In doing this we compromise the very forgiveness we seek.
    Opposition is not against these who are aware of the God given challenges and face them day to day, humbly accepting his unchangeable truth and working to be obedient. It is against the notion that excuses it or even promotes any sin as acceptable.
    The Father is very clear in his opposition to this – and all – sin.
    Rejection of homosexuality is not a lack of love as some would suggest. (Let all fear who fail to extend the characteristics of mercy, grace, longsuffering.. ) It is a warning to be obedient no matter what you have been given. The same as we would warn against anything contrary to the commandments. (Let we who are faltering in the face of our challenges recognize our position before him, repent of our perverseness and rebellion and seek forgiveness, putting to death the works of the flesh)
    Homosexuality is certainly less common than fornication. This ought also to be equally warned against. For many reasons, much of society have made this tolerable, acceptable even desireable. So it is that this is used as an excuse, by some, for justifying the tolerance of Homosexuality. When opponents of Homosexuality speak out, there is so great a cry from humanistic thinking and sadly from those who also profess a faith, that often vehemence claims their voice and they forget their position before their creator. This is used as proof to oppose the message rather than putting the manner of response aside to listen to the real message.
    There is much more to write on this but think on this for now :
    ” In addition, my son, take heed: one can write many books – there’s no end to it; and one can study so much that it wearies the flesh. 13 Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about. 14 For God will bring to judgment everything we do, including every secret, whether good or bad. Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot (commandments); this is what being human is all about. – Ecc. 12:12-14
    Peace be unto you all.
    ExP

  • Panthera

    ExPneuma,
    One of the very greatest problems we face is the assumption on the part of conservative Christians that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, a rebellion against God.
    Medicine, science, psychiatry – all are in agreement that
    1)Homosexuality is present in roughly the same ration among all high-order mammals (there are now enough valid studies to extend that to all or nearly all mammals and higher birds).
    2)Homosexuality is an immutable, innate characteristic. Sexuality can’t be changed, it can’t be chosen.
    The basic assumption on the part of conservative Christians here is false, it is not surprising that this leads to false interpretation of God’s will.

  • Steve Sandberg

    For the sake of context, it would be very instructive to know some examples of the other 118 uses of “abomination” in the Bible. Are they uniformly applied to behaviors that modern people would generally still agree are abominable? Are there any applications of it that modern people would now regard as unquestionably obsolete or incomprehensible?

  • Highly Favored

    When you have a true pure relationship with God, loving God with all your heart soul mind and strength knowing that He sent His only begotten Son (Jesus) to die for all our sins you should know how much God loves us all. Jesus is alive and because Jesus lives we can have life in abundance. Now when having a relationship with God you can only worship God in spirit and in truth when you are in the spirit you will not obey the lust of the flesh
    NIV- Galatians 5:
    16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.
    19The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
    NIV Romans 1:
    21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
    26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
    28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
    So enough said GODS word is True I encourage all to repent and turn from your wicked ways and seek the Lord JESUS is coming back!

  • http://home.earthlink.net/~ggghostie/abominations.html Panthera

    Steve Sandberg,
    The link is to a rather light-hearted look at many of these abominations.
    My personal favorite is usury. All these fundamentalist Christians with their “I only deny you your civil and human rights because I love you” hatred worship and adore Ronnie Rayguns…the jerk who stripped us of our laws against usury.
    Basically, it’s only an abomination in the 21st century if it meets oen of the two following conditions:
    Either the Christian passing judgment can’t commit the act him or herself…
    or
    It is something which is not relevant to conservative politics.
    This is why usury is OK, why a David Vitter can have sex with every prostitute he likes, why Newt Gingerich can divorce his wife who is dying of cancer to marry the cheap young s lut he is banging on the side…
    And all of that is not an abomination.
    But my loving, loyal, true, faithful, committed partnership and legal marriage, we’ve been together for nearly 27 years, is an abomination.
    When we’re done with all the abominations and their contexts, I think we should tackle this BS that fundamentalist Christians are permitted to pass judgment on other people, Jesus didn’t say they couldn’t, he really meant they must.

  • Panthera

    Highly Favored,
    Sigh.
    Paul is talking to people who are in a city know throughout the ancient world for it’s temples of prostitution and it’s many religions of sexual extravagance.
    He is not addressing two men or two women who share a loving, monogamous relationship.
    What he is saying is that all those young men should take their paychecks home to their wife or husband and not run down to the temple for a massage with a happy ending.
    You people did the same thing with the Bible to justify your hatred and oppression of Negroes until recently, now we are the victims of your hatred.
    Oh, sorry, right – you strip me of my civil and human rights out of “love”, not hatred.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Kathie says:
    People think being Gay is a choice.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Well, they are correct.
    Kathie says:
    IT IS NOT A CHOICE.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It is the choice of the homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option.
    Kathie says:
    It is a harmonal inbalance.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Which hormones?
    Kathie says:
    Who would chose to make there life even more complicated.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It’s a crazy world, isn’t it.
    Kathie says:
    Sometimes people are born with more of one hamone.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There is no scientific, uncorrupted, unbiased proof of a hormone cause.
    Kathie says:
    I have an 18 year old son who is gay…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    He SAYS that he is homosexual. We don’t know that he IS.
    Kathie says:
    …and believe me he didn’t chose to be that way.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Well, yes, he did.
    Kathie says:
    And in his short 18 years he has went [sic] through so much because of peoples [sic] preseption [sic] on what is wrong or right.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Which people and which perceptions?
    Kathie says:
    He didn’t just wake up one day and say I think I’ll be gay…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The decision-making process took some time. There were inputs and influences to help him.
    Kathie says:
    NO HE WAS BORN THAT WAY.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There is no uncorrupted, unbiased, scientific proof that he was.
    Kathie says:
    … and anyone who say’s other wise is Ignorant.
    Mr. Incredible translates:

    “If you don’t think like me, you’re ignorant.”

    Kathie says:
    God loves my son…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God loves all. He calls all to repentance.
    However, His love does not trump His justice. He does not treat the disobedient at He treats the obedient.
    Kathie says:
    … and there is no one who has the right to say differant [sic].
    Mr. Incredible says:
    So, in YOUR world, the First Amendment doesn’t apply.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    The term “homosexual” is very modern, it is from the 19th century. It does not appear in any text of the Bible except when that Bible has been reworked by someone who decides to alter the older texts to fit their pown, personal needs.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It’s not necessary for God to use the term. He describes the behavior precisely. We all get the idea. We all understand what He is describing.
    Panthera says:
    When someone says “you can’t be a Christian and gay” they are making such a false statement…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    No, they aren’t. You can’t love God AND do the things He detests. You cannot live as the old creature while claiming to be new. You cannot put old wine in new wineskins.
    Panthera says:
    … all one can do is pray they eventually realise that their hatred does only harm.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We hate what God hates.
    Panthera says:
    We are not asking for special rights.
    Mr. Incredible translates:

    “We wanna appear not to be asking for special Rights, even though that’s precisely for what we asked.

    Panthera says:
    All we want is that you take your religious beliefs out of secular government…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The First Amendment requires the State to keep its religious beliefs out of my life. It does not preclude us from invoking God when we communicate with the State.
    Panthera says:
    … and stop denying us the civil rights we already possess.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What civil Rights do I have that you don’t have?
    Tell us, where’s the discrimination in a law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that there are only two sexes in this world?
    Panthera says:
    ExPneuma,
    One of the very greatest problems we face is the assumption on the part of conservative Christians that homosexuality is a choice, a lifestyle, a rebellion against God.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Where, in the Word of God, does God create what we now call the “homosexual”?
    Of those who survived the Flood, which one could have claimed that he was “homosexual”?
    Panthera says:
    Medicine, science, psychiatry – all are in agreement that
    1)Homosexuality is present in roughly the same ration among all high-order mammals (there are now enough valid studies to extend that to all or nearly all mammals and higher birds).
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There is no scientific, uncorrupted, unbiased proof.
    Panthera says:
    2)Homosexuality is an immutable, innate characteristic.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Then, where is it in the human genome? How come they can’t find it? If they can’t find it, how can anyone say that it is a characteristic?
    What is the identifying, physical characteristic of those who claim to be homosexual, as being apart from everybody else? After all, some physical characteristic tells us who’s Black.
    Panthera says:
    Sexuality can’t be changed…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We agree that, since God made Man heterosexual, Man cannot change that. Man can choose to act according to what he thinks is “homosexual.”
    Panthera says:
    …it can’t be chosen.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that, since God made Man heterosexual, Man has the choice whether to stick with what God made him, or go his own way. Those who claim to be homosexual have decided to go their own way.
    Panthera says:
    The basic assumption on the part of conservative Christians here is false…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What’s the “basic assumption”?
    Panthera says:
    …it is not surprising that this leads to false interpretation of God’s will.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Make the scriptural case, through a line of scriptural thought, that proves we have it wrong.

  • Panthera

    Oh, joy and delight – Mr. Incredible has joined us.
    His nastiness is the best possible argument for gay rights possible.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Romans reiterates Leviticus.
    Throughout the entire Word of God, God refers to a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. A man is husband. A woman is wife.
    Where, in the Word of God, does God refer to so-called “same-sex ‘marriage'”?
    In the Word, Christ is the Bridegroom, and the Church is His bride.
    The marriage of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, simulates that arrangement.
    So, where, in the Word of God, does God see that so-called “same-sex ‘marriage'” is a Godly simulation of the Divine marriage?
    What is Godly about so-called “same-sex ‘marriage'”? What is it supposed to accomplish on par with the Godly, matrimonial set-up of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife?

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    Oh, joy and delight – Mr. Incredible has joined us.
    His nastiness…
    Mr. Incredible translates:

    “I can’t get Mr. Incredible to agree with me. So, he nasty.”

    Panthera says:
    …is the best possible argument for gay rights possible.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What “gay rights”?
    Where is the discrimination in a law that defines “marriage” as the union of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife, given that there are only two sexes — that is, male and female — in the world? What other sex Science knows nothing about is excluded?

  • Mr. Incredible

    Those who claim to be homosexual want the rest of us to accept what they demand without question. To ask questions is to put demand on them. They do not like that demand. They do not have all their ducks in a row, and, so, they do not like to be confronted with questions that will show them up. They want you to accept the propaganda. To ask questions is “nasty.”

  • Mr. Incredible

    Notice that Panthera — who claims to be Christian — never makes a scriptural case. Never presents a line of scriptural thought in the attempt to prove his case. Scripture upon Scripture. Precept upon precept. There’s a reason for that.
    If he presents a line of scriptural thought — a Scripture upon Scripture rendering — he jeopardizes his argument. And he knows it. He knows that he cannot find scriptural justification for his propaganda. Thus, no presentation of a Scripture upon Scripture argument.
    For example, he cannot find a Godly homosexual in the Word of God; he cannot even find what he was alleged to be God’s creation of the man as a homosexual.
    He cannot find a Godly “same-sex ‘marriage'” in the Word of God.
    He cannot find where, in the Word of God, God talks about marriage as being other than a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. That’s cuz God did not join a man and a man, nor a woman and a woman. He joined a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife. Not who, but what. It’s the template for life.
    So, you won’t see the scriptural breakdown from Panthera. What you will see from him is a reluctance to talk, in the scriptural sense, about the details. Prominent in this reluctance will be snide, belittling remarks; but there will be no scriptural case.

  • Mr. Incredible

    CORRECTION
    what he was alleged to be — — > what he alleges to be

  • Mr. Incredible

    Those who claim to be homosexual join atheists in saying that there are so many contradictions and inconsistencies in some version, translation and/or variation of the Word of God. They are only too pleased — spring-loaded — to point these out to you, assuming they exist. They don’t, but that seems not to stop them from saying that they do.
    However, they get their panties in a bunch when somebody like me comes along and points out the contradictions and inconsistencies in their arguments. They don’t like that. That’s really tuff.

  • Mr. Incredible

    See how fast Panthera disappears when confronted. He has done this on other blogs on this site, too.
    All we’re trying to do is get some answers to some legitimate questions. Those questions focus on claims made by those who SAY they are homosexual. We’re left with the impression that Panthera is not as up to the task as he tries to portray himself to be.
    Of course, now he’ll try to play the victim.

  • A Jew

    I love how people WHO BREAK G-D’S LAWS all day long, come in and say Homosexuality is an abomination.
    Here’s news to the Christians who decided this was their soapbox…
    YOU CAN’T READ HEBREW!
    YOU ARE READING TRANSLATIONS OF THE TORAH DONE BY PEOPLE WHO COULDN’T READ HEBREW!
    You have no understanding of how to read the Jewish texts. They were never meant to be read by laypeople and blindly obeyed. They were a Jewish sodoku puzzle… you have to discuss them. That is why the Jews on this board are discussing nuances of the Hebrew and the text, as our bible was meant to be.
    Do not take our texts and twist them. You already decided you don’t have to follow the 613 commandments that G-d gave us because some guy showed up and was crucified by the Romans. Yours is truly the pick and choose religion.
    I follow the Torah (and not the “old testament” and by the way, using the Yah… word is disrespectful to the G-d you claim to love so much). I keep Kosher and follow G-d’s laws.
    Go make your hateful arguments on your own discussion forums.

  • MyName

    So Jesus looked around at all the pharisees and said:
    “i’ll be over there with the gays…”

  • pagansister

    All the above comments, regarding whether homosexuality is a “sin” or not:
    IMO, it boils down to….it’s no one else’s business what 2 consenting adults do in the privacy of their home. IT is also not anyone’s business to “condemn” a person’s sexual orientation, using a religion and their “divine being” as a reason. There is more than one way to interpret religious beliefs…or holy books etc. If religion is suppose to teach “love” some really have a strange way of showing it, by judging who is a “sinner” and who isn’t. Those holy folks are so not worthy to judge anyone…

  • David Saavedra

    The Bible–Old and New Testament–states that homosexuality is a sin. God said it, that settles it! God’s moral laws are eternal; therefore they are universal and immutable–they transcend time and cultures!

  • Gods son

    On behalf of my Father, I wish to say I love you, my brother suffered
    much for you, and still you reject him, you wish to be not part of the family, even though my brother was a Jew, his disciple’s were Jews, the first Christians were Jews, and yet somehow with all your knowledge of his love his mercy you still reject him, I pray that you are among the 144,000 that will be saved when he comes, all over the world many of different races have accepted his only begotten son, but still many want to own God, they want to make him look like them, have the same race as them, and only Jews can really say with truth that the son of God himself was Jewish, And he commands everyone that is in the world to pray for his beloved Israel, for those that are against his children are against him, and he knows you have suffered much,but sill will not call on his son to come into your heart and be healed.
    For he came to us when you rejected him, and gave us a chance, And I know we don’t deserve his mercy, but even the dogs eat the scraps at his masters table, why can’t you forgive your forefathers for their mistake and join in on all God has in store for you, the incredible peace that will enter your heart will amaze you, please the time is very soon, as a thief in the night he comes for his children, and the the Judgement of all, sinners and saints, I love you with all my heart and there is no time left to debate,He will come again, He did send his son to die for our sins, and he did it all for those who will just believe and love his commandments, and try with all their might to serve him, Please consider the words of someone who knows he would be in hell right now if not for Gods grace!

  • anon

    To Paul M. read Romans again. Has God changed? There is neither male or female, Greek nor Jew, bond or free. Everyone receives the same judgement according to their deeds. Man, mankind, the lesbian is just a female homosexual.

  • anon

    To Paul M, read Romans again. Also read where the word states there is neither male nor female, Greek nor Jew, bond nor free. A lesbian is a female homosexual. Also to those who claim to be born that way, we are all born with 2 harmones. Sometimes this may result in an error of the body, but then these are generational issues. It also may be the result of harmone imbalances caused by certain steroids or other concoctions, even drug. At any rate wouldn’t this fall more into the same category as the blind man that was born that way?

  • Panthera

    Question for all the christianists here who strip me of my civil and human rights…why don’t you actively follow the NT commands to stone us to death?
    Seriously – why haven’t you plucked your eye out for offending (or don’t you ever look at a sexually attractive woman and get a rise in your Levi’s?)
    Do answer, and answer truthfully, please.

  • Emily K

    How said it is that out of all the Rabbi’s posts, THIS is the one that gets nearly 300 comments and counting.
    Most of the comments are just people who scream IT’S A SIN IT’S AN ABOMINATION I LOVE GAYS BUT I HATE THEIR LOVING ANOTHER PERSON OF THE SAME SEX JEWS ALSO HAD BETTER CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY
    Why this particular issue so vehemently offends – so surely whips up such an outcry – I do not understand. People feel very threatened by a segment of the population that is very small and does nothing intrinsic to injure or harm others and I do not know why.

  • Emily K

    How said it is that out of all the Rabbi’s posts, THIS is the one that gets nearly 300 comments and counting.
    Most of the comments are just people who scream IT’S A SIN IT’S AN ABOMINATION I LOVE GAYS BUT I HATE THEIR LOVING ANOTHER PERSON OF THE SAME SEX JEWS ALSO HAD BETTER CONVERT TO CHRISTIANITY
    Why this particular issue so vehemently offends – so surely whips up such an outcry – I do not understand. People feel very threatened by a segment of the population that is very small and does nothing intrinsic to injure or harm others and I do not know why.

  • Panthera

    Emily,
    I think it is because both hating gays and telling Jews they must convert are easy things to do.
    Loving one’s neighbor as oneself and loving the L-D with all one’s heart and soul is hard.
    The best part is, you get to pretend that your hatred of Jews and gays is really showing “love” because you have convinced yourself that G-D isn’t willing to accept anybody into heaven unless they are a conservative Christian who votes Republican and thinks the USA is God’s favorite country.

  • Mr. Incredible

    A Jew says:
    I love how people WHO BREAK G-D’S…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Why do you use the abbreviation for “God dam n” to refer to God???
    A Jew says:
    … LAWS all day long, come in and say Homosexuality is an abomination.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Those who are born again are not under the Law. They are under Grace.
    A Jew says:
    You have no understanding of how to read the Jewish texts.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I have read the writings of those who DO understand how to read them.
    A Jew says:
    You already decided you don’t have to follow the 613 commandments that G-d…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Why do you use the abbreviation for “God dam n” to refer to God???
    A Jew says:
    … gave us because some guy showed up and was crucified by the Romans.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Cuz that Guy showed up and was crucified by the Romans, at the behest of the Jews.
    The 613 commandments of God, minus the Ten, are actually the commandments of men who turn their backs on God by coming up with their own rules. God said, essentially, that, if men are gonna make up their own rules, they will have-ta follow them to the letter. I’m not a Jew, and, for the last 7+ years, I haven’t turned my back on God. Having accepted and received Christ, I get Grace. I get Grace through Christ cuz God knows I understand that, as a man, I cannot follow the Law to the letter, thanks to Adam and Eve. Those who do not accept Christ are under the Law, and they must follow it to the letter, or remain guilty. Those who are under Grace — born again — are no longer guilty.
    A Jew says:
    I keep Kosher…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    What goes into the mouth does not defile a man, rather what comes out of the mouth. Reference Proverbs 18:21.
    A Jew says:
    … and follow G-d’s laws.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Still would like to know why you use the abbreviation for “God damn” to reference God.
    In any case, if you don’t follow His Law to the letter, exactly, and and you fail even in one jot, you fail in all.

  • Mr. Incredible

    pagansister says:
    … it’s no one else’s business what 2 consenting adults do in the privacy of their home.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that it is, depending.
    pagansister says:
    IT is also not anyone’s business to “condemn” a person’s sexual orientation…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Who says?
    pagansister says:
    …using a religion…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We don’t use “religion.”
    pagansister says:
    …and their “divine being” as a reason.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God tells those who were born again to judge Righteously — that is, according to His Word.
    pagansister says:
    There is more than one way to interpret religious beliefs…or holy books etc.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Which “beliefs”? Which “holy books”?
    pagansister says:
    If religion…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Which “religion”?
    pagansister says:
    … is suppose to teach “love”…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Muslims don’t teach, nor practice, “love.”
    Biblically, what is “love”?
    pagansister says:
    … some really have a strange way of showing it…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    “Strange,” according to whom?
    pagansister says:
    … by judging who is a “sinner” and who isn’t.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Who says we can’t?
    pagansister says:
    Those holy folks are so not worthy to judge anyone…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God, through Christ, makes us worthy.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    Question for all the christianists here who strip me of my civil and human rights…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    You have no fewer Rights than anyone else.
    Panthera says:
    … why don’t you actively follow the NT commands to stone us to death?
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Where is that in the New Testament??
    Panthera says:
    Seriously – why haven’t you plucked your eye out for offending (or don’t you ever look at a sexually attractive woman and get a rise in your Levi’s?)
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    There is no command actually to pluck any eyes out.
    Panthera says:
    Do answer…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I did.
    Panthera says:
    …and answer truthfully, please.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    According to whose “truth”?

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    Emily,
    I think it is because both hating gays…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We don’t hate so-called “gays” — that is, those who claim to be homosexual.
    Panthera says:
    …and telling Jews they must convert…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Where, in the Word of God, the God tell us not to inform those in the House of Israel?
    Panthera says:
    Loving one’s neighbor as oneself…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Biblically, what is “love”?
    Panthera says:
    … and loving the L-D with all one’s heart and soul is hard.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Jesus says that His burden is light. He says His yoke is easy. So, do I believe Him, or you?
    Panthera says:
    The best part is, you get to pretend that your hatred of Jews and gays…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We don’t hate Jews and we don’t have so-called “gays” — that is, those who claim to be homosexual.
    Panthera says:
    …is really showing “love”…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Biblically, what is “love”?
    Panthera says:
    …because you have convinced yourself…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We have been convinced by God, through Christ and the Holy Spirit.
    Panthera says:
    … that G-D…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Why do you use the abbreviation for “God dam n” to refer to God???
    Panthera says:
    … isn’t willing to accept anybody into heaven unless they are a conservative Christian who votes Republican and thinks the USA is God’s favorite country.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Where is ANYONE said that, in those words?

  • Mr. Incredible

    CORRECTION
    Where is ANYONE said that… — — > Where has ANYONE said that…

  • jeffrey

    why do people care if someone is gay its not hurting them

  • Steve Sandberg

    “why do people care if someone is gay its not hurting them”
    Because some people think they will climb to heaven more securely if it is over a pile of stones they have thrown at others.

  • Panthera

    Mr. Incredible,
    Several people have posted here that the find it inappropriate for people making comments on a Rabbi’s blog to invoke the name of the L-D.
    The abbreviation G-D or L-D is acceptable.
    It certainly doesn’t hurt me to respect their wishes.
    It might even lead to me learning something I don’t know.

  • Virinia

    God is Love
    Love is both thinking and wanting the very best for everyone.
    I will leave the sins of our world at Jesus throne because he is the
    only one who has paid the price for all sins. I can not and will not attempt to know What Jesus will say to another person that is a personal thing that only you as an individual and Jesus as your savior can determine. May Jesus wor with each of us because all has sined.

  • Paul Kruoa

    Rabbi Brad,
    Really, as Christian who takes seriously the old testament and especially the first 5 books, you want me to believe God is more intent on getting me to be tolerant than pointing out a true abomination in God’s Holy word? Let Gods word stand alone . Homosexuality is unholy and a cancer in God’s eyes as is adultery. Teh Word is clear on this subject.
    I support Isreal as the Apple of God’s eye, but really don’t you think you should uphole the Word of God and not water it down. Sin is Sin. Jesus said There will be no homosexuals in Heaven, is that clear enough??
    Paul Krupa
    Beaverton,OR

  • Cheryl B.

    All of you should read, “Ten Things your Minister Wants to Tell You, but can’t Because He needs the Job” by Oliver S. ‘Buzz’Thomas. Maybe it will enlighten you as he addresses the issue of Homosexuality and many other ideas. Basically, he says that this is NOT a Choice. By the way–He is a Baptist minister, an Attorney and works at the Freedom Forum Amendment Center.
    Just think about it. NONE of us were presented with the “choice”. It was what it was. I am heterosexual–I didn’t choose that–I was just attracted to men. Read the book.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Virinia says:
    God is Love
    Love is both thinking and wanting the very best for everyone.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God IS love. God sent His love in Jesus Christ. God is the Word. God sent His Word as an act of His love. We send His Word as an act of His and our love. We speak the Word as an act of God’s love in us.
    What did Jesus do? He loved. How? By bringing to Man God’s Message of Reconciliation with Man.
    So, biblical “love” is unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for others’ Salvation as you have for your own.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says
    The abbreviation G-D or L-D is acceptable.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    To whom is it acceptable to use the abbreviation for “God dam n” to refer to God???

  • Mr. Incredible

    Cheryl B. says:
    All of you should read, “Ten Things your Minister Wants to Tell You, but can’t Because He needs the Job” by Oliver S. ‘Buzz’Thomas. Maybe it will enlighten you as he addresses the issue of Homosexuality and many other ideas. Basically, he says that this is NOT a Choice.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that it IS a choice.
    Cheryl B. says:
    By the way–He is a Baptist minister, an Attorney and works at the Freedom Forum Amendment Center.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    So what?
    Cheryl B. says:
    Just think about it.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We thought about it. Then, we rejected it.
    Cheryl B. says:
    NONE of us were presented with the “choice”.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Oh, really??? That’s not what God says through His Word.
    Cheryl B. says:
    It was what it was.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What was what it was?
    Cheryl B. says:
    I am heterosexual…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God made you so.
    Cheryl B. says:
    –I didn’t choose that…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    However, you choose to continue to be what God made you.
    Cheryl B. says:
    … –I was just attracted to men.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Through whatever process, you chose that homosexual, alternative-lifestyle orientation option. It isn’t God’s choice.

  • http://www.apostolicrestorationmission.4t.com/id27.htm Don

    This whole subject has already been studied in the orginal Hebrew and Greek and very few are willing to accept the truth.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Don says:
    …very few are willing to accept the truth.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    And THAT’s why He will save only a few, a remnant.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Fortunately, the “truth” isn’t on that website.

  • JEANIE

    YES ITS IS BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST GOD WORD IT NOT IN THE LAW BUT SIN IS A SIN AS COMMITTED A ADULTARY THAT HOW IT SPELL GOD EXPECT THAT MANKIND WOULD BE HONESTED IN THERE LIVES DONT LET THE SUN GO DOWN UPON YOUR WRATH MAKE PEACE WITH AL MEN BY TELLING THE TRUTH GOD DID NOT CREAT MAN TO BE WITH MAN GOD CREATED MAN TO BE WITH WOMAN BECAUSE MAN COULD NOT HAVE SEXS WITH ANIMAILS .AND YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE

  • JEANIE

    JESUS SAID THAT MAN RATHER HEAR A LIE THAN THE TRUTH MY LIFE IS LIVEING IN A LIE BUT I RATHER HEAR THE TRUTH WE ARE NOT PERFECT BUT GOD FORBID THAT WE SAY ITS OK TO SIN OR COMPROMISE THE WORD OF GOD TO BE MEN PLEASEER IN EYESERVICE YOU TAKING THEM TO HELL AS WELL AS YOURSELF THAT MY OPINNION OF THE TRUTH

  • JEANIE

    THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING ME TO SAY OR SPEAK OF THIS. LIFE IS SO MISTRUST AND WE ARE NOT WHERE WE SURPOSE TO BE MYSELF. TIME IS CHANGEING THING ARE HAPPENING EACH AND EVERYDAY. AND GOD IS SOON TO GATHER UP THE PEOPLE THAT IS REAL. OUR BOTHERS HATE EACH OTHERS ALL PART OF THE WORLD. THE WORLD KNOWS THAT WE CANT SPEAK THERE WORDS.AND GOD BLESSTHE CHILDREN OF ABRAM AND HIS SEED WE ARE THE PART OF THAT SEED GENERATION. IF WE LIVE THE LIFE OF PEACE IN CHRIST WE ALL BE ALRIGHT. ITS BY HAVING FAITH IN YHE CREATER AND NOT IN OURSELFS IT TELL US MANKIND TO TRUST IN THE LORD WITH ALL OUR HEARTS AND SOUL AND MIND AND DONT LEAN TO YOUR OWN UNDERSTANGING. TO GET ALL OUR UNDERSTANDING IS FROM GOD AND THE SON OF GOD MAY GOD HAVE MERCY UPON US ALL.AMEN

  • Panthera

    jeannie,
    perhaps you do not know this but typing everything (or even most things) in capital letters is considered to be screaming on the internet.

  • Mr. Incredible

    One who claims to be Christian AND who continue, willingly and willfully to practice homosexuality is what the Word of God calls a “stumblingblock.”
    A stumblingblock, according to the Word of God, is a Christian who acts like the world and, thereby, gives the world the impression that it’s OK to be a Christian AND sin like the world.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    jeannie,
    …typing everything (or even most things) in capital letters is considered to be screaming on the internet.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Maybe she was born that way. I know we haven’t found a gene that makes her do it, but we will.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Virinia says:
    God is Love
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God loves all.
    However, He will not save all cuz most love the pleasures of their owns works in darkness.
    While He loves all, His love will not stay His justice, just as a loving parent will not stay his hand when his child disobeys. Of course, we understand that the trouble today is that parents are not disciplining their kids, and that this is part of the reason we have so much trouble today.

  • Mr. Incredible

    What is Godly about homosexuality, and where can we find, in the Word of God, God’s mention of this Godliness, if it is there [it isn't, of course]?

  • Mr. Incredible

    God consistently mentions the Godliness of the man-as-husband/woman-as-his-wife, heterosexual relationship. If homosexuality is Godly, as those who claim to be homosexual want us to believe, it oughta be in the Word of God. Where is it?

  • Mr. Incredible

    ==Let’s stop hiding behind texts, interpretations, claims about what God wants, and what it means to be compassionate (however well-meaning those actions are), and see each other as human beings…==
    A wifebeater is a “human being.”
    So are those who beat Matthew Whatever-his-name-is to death, allegedly cuz he “was homosexual.”
    A child molester is a “human being.”
    Hitler was a “human being.”
    Seeing people just as human beings can be a handicap.

  • Mr. Incredible

    ==Human sexuality, definitions of family, and so much else, have changed more in the last fifty years than in the previous millennium.==
    However, God doesn’t change, and, so, neither does His view that He detests homosexuality.

  • Mr. Incredible

    ==…whatever one’s views, it seems to me that we could all treat each other with a greater measure of compassion…==
    Wht kinda “compassion”? As the world measures it? Or as God, through Christ, measures it?
    According to God, in His Word, Jesus had compassion on those who would “faint” without a “shepherd.” [reference Jonah 2:7 -- "When my soul fainted within me, I remembered the Lord."]
    Therefore, biblical “compassion” for those who would faint without a shepherd leads us to help them remember the Lord. That means giving them the Word of God.
    Regarding this issue, that’s what WE are doing.

  • Steve Sandberg

    It’s an interesting question as to whether God can change His mind. Reading between the lines of the second chapter of Genesis (KJV), I get the feeling that God was surprised by man’s loneliness. Here is Adam, he’s all alone, and God recognizes that there is something wrong with this picture. So He lines up all the animals He has created for Adam’s inspection. Adam’s activity of naming the animals starts our first field of science (zoology) but does not succeed at its primary purpose: producing his help meet. Thus it seems that right from the start of the relationship between God and man, man is going to be a surprising creation! Because of what certainly looks to me like an unanticipated situation, God goes to Plan B: creating Eve. So we see there is at least arguable evidence from the very first book of the Bible that perhaps God can change His mind if He wants to.
    Similarly, later on in Genesis 8:21 (KJV), and verses 11-15 of Genesis 9, after the waters of the Flood have receded, God says that He will not again curse the ground and smite every living thing for the sake of the evil imagination in man’s heart. When God does something once, but then decides not to do it again, it is at least arguable that He has had misgiving about His first action, and has changed His mind about it.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Steve Sandberg says:
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It’s an interesting question as to whether God can change His mind.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There’s no question in my mind — Mal 3:6; Hebrews 13:8.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Reading between the lines…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    2 Peter 1:20
    Steve Sandberg says:
    … of the second chapter of Genesis (KJV), I get the feeling…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    2 Peter 1:20
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …that God was surprised by man’s loneliness.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    One WOULD have-ta read between the lines in order to “find” that God is surprised, even though He wasn’t.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Here is Adam, he’s all alone, and God recognizes that there is something wrong with this picture.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    What words point precisely to what YOU say is the “surprise” of God’s recognition that He missed something?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    So He lines up all the animals He has created for Adam’s inspection. Adam’s activity of naming the animals starts our first field of science (zoology) but does not succeed its primary purpose: producing his help meet.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It was not up to Adam to produce his help meet.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Thus it seems…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There goes that private interpretation again.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    … that right from the start of the relationship between God and man, man is going to be a surprising creation!
    Mr. Incredible says:
    There is no indication that the behavior of Man is a surprise to God. He knew that Man Would have trouble if given the dignity of choice. God planned for it.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …Because of what certainly looks to me…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Private interpretation again.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    … like an unanticipated situation…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    So, to YOU, the Guy who created EVERYTHING didn’t anticipate everything. That makes sense to you??
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …God goes to Plan B: creating Eve.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Then, why did God create the spirits of Man to be male and female?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    So we see there is at least arguable evidence from the very first book of the Bible that perhaps God can change His mind if He wants to.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It is manufactured evidence, based on private interpretation, not Holy Spirit interpretation.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Similarly, later on in Genesis 8:21 (KJV), and verses 11-15 of Genesis 9, after the waters of the Flood have receded, God says that He will not again curse the ground and smite every living thing for the sake of the evil imagination in man’s heart. When God does something once, but then decides not to do it again, it is at least arguable that He has misgiving about His first action, and has changed His mind about it.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Of course, men’s thoughts are not God’s thoughts.
    And, also, of course, there is no causative/causive sense in the old Hebrew; there is only permissive defense. Therefore, where it looks as though He causes something to happen, He simply allows it to happen, given the condition of the hearts and minds of men.
    So, HE is saying there is that He will provide an escape hatch for Man. He is not admitting to regret.

  • Mr. Incredible

    CORRECTION
    And, also, of course, there is no causative/causive sense in the old Hebrew; there is only permissive defense.
    — — >
    And, also, of course, there is no permissive sense in old Hebrew; there is only causative/causive sense.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    What about it all you conservative Christians – why are you attacking my civil and human rights…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What “civil and human Rights” are we attacking?
    Panthera says:
    Why are you attacking me…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We’re not attacking you anymore than you’re attacking us.
    Panthera says:
    … and my marriage?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Cuz it’s not in line with God and His Plan.
    Panthera says:
    How dare you say I am not saved…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We report what God says. Not to report what God says is to deny what God says. We won’t do that.
    Panthera says:
    … I am not a Christian…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    John 14:15 — If you love Him, you will not wanna do what He detests. That you continue to do willingly and willfully what He says he detests is not to love Him. If you don’t love Him, you cannot have been born again. Willingly and willfully sinning is sin unto death.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Neshama says:
    This is supposed to be a forum for Jewish people…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    That’s what I keep telling non-Christians in Christian forums.
    Neshama says:
    …don’t all of you X-tians have enough of your own forums to post to on the internet and even on Beliefnet?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Yes, but they are all invaded by atheist, for example, who were there to create chaos.

  • Mr. Incredible

    JR says:
    Sorry world… God is right and your opinions will not change His mind.
    G says:
    Ok JR whose God??
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I AM.

  • More Incredible Than You

    I know you really do know this, and you’re just a troll, but I have to say it–
    Mr. Incredible, G-D is not an abbreviation for god-damn, it’s an abbreviation for the word god, which is to say the (a) name of god, which most orthodox Jews will not spell out in full in either English or Hebrew.
    You can keep saying you don’t understand it. If you don’t understand something as simple to state as that, how can you possibly understand anything at all?

  • Mr. Incredible

    More Incredible Than You says:
    …G-D is not an abbreviation for god-damn…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that a lotta people substitute it for “God dam n.”
    More Incredible Than You says:
    … it’s an abbreviation for the word god…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Which one?
    More Incredible Than You says:
    …which is to say the (a) name of god…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Which one?
    More Incredible Than You says:
    …which most orthodox Jews will not spell out in full in either English or Hebrew.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    So, they would rather use the abbreviation for “God dam n”????

  • Panthera

    Wow.
    Mr. Incredible, I usually skip over your screed, but this goes to far.
    1) Stop attacking people for not spelling out the name of our L-D. Several people have pointed out that naming the L-D is offensive in Judaism, this is a blog written by a Rabbi. We are guests here, invited to join into the conversation. At a minimum, we need to respect their wishes.
    2) How dare you say:
    Mr. Incredible
    May 3, 2010 10:18 AM
    Panthera says:
    … I am not a Christian…
    end quote
    That is not true. I am a Christian. Twisting things around to present such an untruth is false witness.
    Rabbi Hirschfield, I appreciate that you permit all of us to participate here. Please, sir, set some limits.
    Thank you.

  • Steve Sandberg

    “There goes that private interpretation again.”
    What’s wrong with private interpretation? It worked pretty well for St. Paul.
    “Of course, men’s thoughts are not God’s thoughts.”
    That’s why I said it was arguable, not inarguable.
    “It was not up to Adam to produce his help meet.”
    I never said that it was. This is your private interpretation.
    “Then, why did God create the spirits of Man to be male and female?”
    This is a foretelling of an action God doesn’t actually get around to doing until after Adam’s loneliness is introduced into the story. It is not automatic proof that the intention to create preceded the necessity to create. It could simply be a commentary after the fact.
    “So, to YOU, the Guy who created EVERYTHING didn’t anticipate everything. That makes sense to you??”
    This goes to the question of why God created the world in the first place. Dare I venture into private interpretation once more? :-)
    “Therefore, where it looks as though He causes something to happen, He simply allows it to happen, given the condition of the hearts and minds of men.”
    Well, now, hold on here. If the Flood is a purely natural event, the spiritual condition of men cannot have any bearing on it. It would be indifferent to their spiritual condition. Their spiritual condition can only have relevance to God. And the Flood and men’s spiritual condition can only be relevant to each other if the Flood is a supernatural event. If God allows something to happen, based on a certain spiritual condition in man, His decision only has a spiritual meaning if He would have stopped the thing from happening, had man’s spiritual condition been better. So it is evasive to draw a distinction between God’s merely allowing an otherwise natural event to occur, and God instigating it Himself. Either the thing has a spiritual meaning or it doesn’t, and it can’t have a spiritual meaning apart from God’s decision to allow it or not allow it.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    Wow.
    Mr. Incredible, I usually skip over your screed…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    So what? No reason to stop now.
    Panthera says:
    … but this goes to far.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Who says?
    Panthera says:
    1) Stop attacking people for not spelling out the name of our L-D.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I’m not attacking anyone. All I’m doing is saying that the abbreviation, “G-D,” is also the abbreviation for “God dam n.” I’m not saying they can’t use it. I can’t stop them from using it. I’m just pointing out the reality.
    Panthera says:
    Several people have pointed out that naming the L-D is offensive in Judaism…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I’m not talking about “L-D.” and talking about “G-D.”
    Panthera says:
    We are guests here…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    So what?
    Panthera says:
    … invited to join into [sic] the conversation.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Well, I’ve accepted that invitation “into” the conversation.
    Panthera says:
    At a minimum, we need to respect their wishes.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    That does not mean I can’t ask provocative questions, nor bring up sensitive points.
    Panthera says:
    2) How dare you say:

    “Mr. Incredible

    “May 3, 2010 10:18 AM

    “Panthera says:

    “… I am not a Christian…”

    That is not true. I am a Christian. Twisting things around to present such an untruth is false witness.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that I didn’t write that you are not a Christian, though one cannot be a Christian AND willingly, willfully, continuously and continually do the things that God detests.
    You’ll notice that I surrounded the words “I am not Christian” with elipses in order to indicate that the phrase is part of a previous statement which continues after the phrase.
    So, ignorant of that, you jumped the gun.
    Panthera says:
    Rabbi Hirschfield, I appreciate that you permit all of us to participate here. Please, sir, set some limits.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    “Limits” on what, pointing out that “G-D” is also the abbreviation for “God dam n”???

  • Mr. Incredible

    Here’s a particular segment of that post that has Panthera all exercised —


    Panthera says:
    How dare you say I am not saved…”

    “Mr. Incredible says:
    We report what God says. Not to report what God says is to deny what God says. We won’t do that.”

    “Panthera says:
    … I am not a Christian…”

    “Mr. Incredible says:
    John 14:15 — If you love Him, you will not wanna do what He detests. That you continue to do willingly and willfully what He says he detests is not to love Him. If you don’t love Him, you cannot have been born again. Willingly and willfully sinning is sin unto death.”

    It’s clear from the context that the quote of the phrase, with ellipses, “… I am not Christian…,” does not stand alone, as Pantera would have you believe. This is especially true when you consider my response to the phrase.
    So, just as those who claim to be homosexual over-do what they believe to be female mannerisms, Panthera over-does his reaction and presents a line of propaganda to try to justify his over-reaction.

  • Mr. Incredible

    CORRECTION FOR CLARITY
    Here’s a particular segment of that post that has Panthera all exercised —

    “Panthera says:
    How dare you say I am not saved…”

    “Mr. Incredible says: We report what God says. Not to report what God says is to deny what God says. We won’t do that.”

    “Panthera says: … I am not a Christian…”

    “Mr. Incredible says: John 14:15 — If you love Him, you will not wanna do what He detests. That you continue to do willingly and willfully what He says he detests is not to love Him. If you don’t love Him, you cannot have been born again. Willingly and willfully sinning is sin unto death.”

    It’s clear from the context that the quote of the phrase, with ellipses, “… I am not Christian…,” does not stand alone, as Pantera would have you believe. This is especially true when you consider my response to the phrase.
    So, just as those who claim to be homosexual over-do what they believe to be female mannerisms, Panthera over-does his reaction and presents a line of propaganda to try to justify his over-reaction.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Bryce Stevens says:
    … what choice does a hermorphodite have.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    A hermaphrodite, an aberration, has physical characteristics which are the aberration. However, the chromosomes are either male, or female.
    Now, what are the physical characteristics of one who claims to be homosexual, that we can tell the person who claims to be homosexual apart from everybody else? So far, all we have is that a person SAYS he is homosexual. I say that I am the King of England. Where does THAT get me?
    Bryce Stevens says:
    If they chose to live as a man or a woman or depinding on who they chose as a partner or them, how should we “judge them?” [Sic]
    Mr. Incredible says:
    “Choose to live as a man or a woman.” Very telling.
    Bryce Stevens says:
    …and how does God judge them?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Again, they either have male chromosomes, or female chromosomes. It’s up to them to find out. They have the opportunity to find out. When they find out, then they are what God made them to be. Until then, their choice to be what they want is not necessarily God’s choice.
    Bryce Stevens says:
    Do they have a choice…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    They don’t have a choice of physical characteristics. They also don’t have a choice of chromosomal characteristics which will tell whether they are male, or female.
    As I ask, what are the physical characteristics of those who claim to be homosexual, that we can tell them apart from everybody else?
    Bryce Stevens says:
    … were they born that way?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    They were born male, or female. A chromosome check will reveal that. Their physical characteristics are an aberration. Not the norm. By you saying that those who claim to be homosexual are not normal?
    Bryce Stevens says:
    Maybe it is in how they are – Inside – not so much as on the outside, perhaps like a gay man or woman.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    One who claims to be homosexual can’t show no physical characteristics of so-called “homosexual orientation.”

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    There goes private interpretation again.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    What’s wrong with private interpretation?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The Word of God says that no interpretation of Scripture is of private interpretation.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It worked pretty well for St. Paul.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that Paul says that he got his interpretation by revelation from Christ [through the Holy Spirit]. That squares with 2 Timothy 3:16.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    It was not up to Adam to produce his help meet.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    I never said that it was.
    Mr. Incredible says:

    “Steve Sandberg says:”

    “So He lines up all the animals He has created for Adam’s inspection. Adam’s activity of naming the animals starts our first field of science (zoology) but does not succeed its primary purpose: producing his help meet.”

    “Mr. Incredible says:
    It was not up to Adam to produce his help meet.”

    You say that the primary purpose of Adam’s activity is to produce his help meet.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This is your private interpretation.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    We are allowed privately to interpret another person’s statements. Private interpretation, however, does not apply to the Word of God.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Then, why did God create the spirits of Man to be male and female?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This is a foretelling…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    No, it was an action by God.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …of an action God doesn’t actually get around to doing until after Adam’s loneliness is introduced into the story.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God’s creation of the spirit of Man occurs before He physically made Man. The spiritual ALWAYS precedes the physical/natural.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It is not automatic proof that the intention to create preceded the necessity to create.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The intention to create came before the necessity to create. The intention was in His faith and love. The necessity to create was expressed by speaking.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It could simply be a commentary after the fact.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Coulda, woulda, shoulda.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    So, to YOU, the Guy who created EVERYTHING didn’t anticipate everything. That makes sense to you??
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This goes to the question of why God created the world in the first place.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    John 3:16 [KJV]. The Seven Words of Perfection:

    “For God so loved the world that…”

    Steve Sandberg says:
    Dare I venture into private interpretation once more? :-)
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Why stop now?

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    Therefore, where it looks as though He causes something to happen, He simply allows it to happen, given the condition of the hearts and minds of men.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If the Flood is a purely natural event…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It wasn’t.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …the spiritual condition of men cannot have any bearing on it.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Says who?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It would be indifferent to their spiritual condition.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Again, says who?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Their spiritual condition can only have relevance to God.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Are you God? Do YOU set the rules?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    And the Flood and men’s spiritual condition can only be relevant to each other if the Flood is a supernatural event.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The Flood is the result of evil forces in the universe. Evil forces cannot touch you, if you don’t turn your back on God. That’s the deal. This isn’t, “Let’s Make a Deal.”
    So, the evil in the universe came back to haunt those who did evil. Evil meant it for bad, but God turned it into good for the Righteous. The Flood did not touch the Righteous.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If God allows something to happen, based on a certain spiritual condition in man, His decision only has a spiritual meaning if He would have stopped the thing from happening, had man’s spiritual condition been better.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God warned Man. God warns Man. It is men’s choice to accept the Blessing, or the curse. The responsibility for the consequences belongs to those who have the choice.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    So it is evasive to draw a distinction between God’s merely allowing an otherwise natural event to occur, and God instigating it Himself.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    To YOU, it’s “evasive.” In fact, God gave Man choice. He would break His Covenant, if, after giving Man authority, He would step in every time to correct men who decided to turn their backs on Him and go it alone.
    In any case, the old Hebrew there is no permissive sense; there is only causative/causive sense. That’s not “evasion.”
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Either the thing has a spiritual meaning or it doesn’t, and it can’t have a spiritual meaning apart from God’s decision to allow it or not allow it.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Everything has spiritual meaning, either Blessing, or curse. The choice is yours. Not His. He already made His choice. He can’t protect you only if you receive the Blessing. He cannot protect you if you reject His offer and receive the curse. To protect you, if you turn your back on Him, would be to break His Covenant.
    Therefore, to receive the Blessing, you are protected from the curses. To reject the Blessing, you are not protected from the curses. Again, that’s the deal. This isn’t, “Let’s Make a Deal.”

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    The Word of God says that no interpretation of Scripture is of private interpretation.
    CLARIFICATION
    The Word of God says that private interpretation cannot discern the Truth of God, that the natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit, and that only the ungodly and unrighteous hold His Truth in unrighteousness.

  • Mr. Incredible

    CORRECTION
    He can’t protect you only if you receive the Blessing. —-> He can protect you only if you receive the Blessing.

  • Steve Sandberg

    “Except that Paul says that he got his interpretation by revelation from Christ [through the Holy Spirit]. That squares with 2 Timothy 3:16.”
    Well, it ought to square with it. He wrote it! Paul claiming that he had an inspiration from God, and then writing a letter to Timothy saying that all scripture depends on inspiration from God, is hardly independent proof that that Paul had an inspiration from God. If you said YOU had an inspiration from God, I’d be more inclined to believe you, because I can further question you about it. Can’t do that with Paul.
    “Mr. Incredible says:
    It was not up to Adam to produce his help meet.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    I never said that it was……”
    [et cetera]
    I never said it was. Adam couldn’t produce anything. He could merely catalog God’s creation and demonstrate some sort of favorable or unfavorable response to it as a source for a help meet. In Genesis 2:18, God says it’s not good for man to be alone, and He (God) will make a help meet for him (Adam). In verse 19 He (God) creates the animals and produces them for his (Adam’s) inspection. In verse 20 he (Adam) names all the animals, “but for Adam there was not found an help meet.” It’s a perfectly logical conclusion from the text that this animal parade was intended to derive a help meet for Adam. Obviously Adam didn’t create the animals or line them up for himself. From verse 18, it’s not even sure that Adam himself knows it’s not good for him to be alone. Only the Lord knows that for sure.
    “Mr. Incredible says:
    We are allowed privately to interpret another person’s statements. Private interpretation, however, does not apply to the Word of God.”
    Except in the case of St. Paul. And also when St. Paul is testifying on his own behalf to Timothy.
    “Mr. Incredible asks:
    Then, why did God create the spirits of Man to be male and female?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This is a foretelling…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    No, it was an action by God.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …of an action God doesn’t actually get around to doing until after Adam’s loneliness is introduced into the story.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God’s creation of the spirit of Man occurs before He physically made Man. The spiritual ALWAYS precedes the physical/natural.”
    Well, that’s in Genesis Chapter 1, verse 27. In verse 28, He tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Verse 31 identifies these actions as occurring on the sixth day of creation. Immediately thereafter follows the seventh day, when He rests. Yet He doesn’t get around to creating Eve until Chapter 2, verse 22. Is this a flashback to the sixth day?
    “Mr. Incredible says:
    So, to YOU, the Guy who created EVERYTHING didn’t anticipate everything. That makes sense to you??
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This goes to the question of why God created the world in the first place.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    John 3:16 [KJV]. The Seven Words of Perfection:
    “For God so loved the world that…”
    The statement that God loved the world He had created doesn’t tell us why He created it. If it is purely and exclusively an expression of His love, it would probably be a much less hostile and turbulent place. Instead, it includes many challenging and testing elements, much misery and disaster, and God’s love is not always foremost among its visible qualities. If the world is exclusively a demonstration of God’s love, why is it so perilous?

  • Steve Sandberg

    “Mr. Incredible says:
    Therefore, where it looks as though He causes something to happen, He simply allows it to happen, given the condition of the hearts and minds of men.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If the Flood is a purely natural event…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It wasn’t.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …the spiritual condition of men cannot have any bearing on it.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Says who?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It would be indifferent to their spiritual condition.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Again, says who?”
    Now, at this point I have to ask you – do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to be tendentious?
    “Steve Sandberg says:
    Their spiritual condition can only have relevance to God.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Are you God? Do YOU set the rules?”
    When a tornado rips the roof off a church and kills the entire congregation, is their spiritual condition of relevance to the tornado? Or, instead, is it of relevance to God independently of the tornado?
    “Steve Sandberg says:
    And the Flood and men’s spiritual condition can only be relevant to each other if the Flood is a supernatural event.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The Flood is the result of evil forces in the universe. Evil forces cannot touch you, if you don’t turn your back on God. That’s the deal. This isn’t, “Let’s Make a Deal.”
    So, the evil in the universe came back to haunt those who did evil. Evil meant it for bad, but God turned it into good for the Righteous. The Flood did not touch the Righteous.”
    Okay, I understand you. And we can certainly apply this idea to more modern events than the Flood. In 2001 Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson got into trouble for comments asserting that the 9/11 attacks had largely been brought about by behaviors in our society that God disapproves of, and were somewhat deserved as a punitive action which God allowed to take place… similarly to the Flood. Now the other day, we had this bomb that failed to go off in the same place, Times Square, presumptively perpetrated by the same forces. Since that attack failed, would it be logical to assume that God is more approving of us in 2010 than He was in 2001?

  • Panthera

    Steve Sandberg,
    I am sorry to say that Mr. Incredible only wishes to be tendentious.
    Over the last several years, across several blogs here at beliefnet, he has used exactly these tactics to blow up one discussion after another.
    Three years or so ago, I thought “he” was a composite of several frat-boys. After all these years, I now believe “him” to be an individual truly incapable of granting any credence to any belief system but his own.
    It is impossible to discuss anything with him, even when observant Jews here asked us not to use the name of our deity and we tried to comply, he immediately launched into an attack.
    It’s unfortunate, but his postings do serve one very useful purpose: They make very clear to everyone just exactly why gays and the transgender so desperately need protection from these conservative Christians.

  • Steve Sandberg

    Well, let’s see what happens next. G-d bless you.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Panthera says:
    Steve Sandberg,
    I am sorry to say that Mr. Incredible only wishes to be tendentious.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    I do??
    Panthera says:
    Over the last several years, across several blogs here at beliefnet, he has used exactly these tactics…
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    “Tactics”??
    Panthera says:
    … to blow up one discussion after another.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I’ve done nothing of the kind. There are enough electrons for everybody. Nobody is stopping anyone from posting.
    The fact is that you wanna eliminate opposition. My opposition is formidable. So, it’s natural for you to wanna eliminate MY opposition.
    Panthera says:
    Three years or so ago, I thought “he” was a composite of several frat-boys. After all these years, I now believe “him” to be an individual truly incapable of granting any credence to any belief system but his own.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Any belief system but God’s, through Christ.
    Panthera says:
    It is impossible to discuss anything with him…
    Mr. Incredible translates:

    “I can’t get him to change his mind and be like me.”

    Panthera says:
    …even when observant Jews here asked us not to use the name of our deity…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I’m all for it, except that I want not to impose my Morality on others. So, I won’t.
    Panthera says:
    … and we tried to comply…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Well, that’s YOU.
    Panthera says:
    … he immediately launched into an attack.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Too bad you see an attack where there was none. I merely asked a question. You see it as an attack. I can’t help that.
    Panthera says:
    … his postings do serve one very useful purpose: They make very clear to everyone just exactly why gays and the transgender so desperately need protection from these conservative Christians.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    “Protection”??? Protection from Free Speech??? That figures.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    Except that Paul says that he got his interpretation by revelation from Christ [through the Holy Spirit]. That squares with 2 Timothy 3:16.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Paul claiming that he had an inspiration from God, and then writing a letter to Timothy saying that all scripture depends on inspiration from God, is hardly independent proof that that Paul had an inspiration from God.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    You don’t have-ta believe it.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If you said YOU had an inspiration from God, I’d be more inclined to believe you, because I can further question you about it.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I get my inspiration from God, through the Holy Spirit.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Can’t do that with Paul.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Irrelevant. There’s enough witness and testimony to show that what Paul says is true. However, 1 Corinthians 2:14 [KJV]

  • Mr. Incredible

    Steve Sandberg says:
    Adam couldn’t produce anything. He could merely catalog God’s creation and demonstrate some sort of favorable or unfavorable response to it as a source for a help meet. In Genesis 2:18, God says it’s not good for man to be alone, and He (God) will make a help meet for him (Adam). In verse 19 He (God) creates the animals and produces them for his (Adam’s) inspection. In verse 20 he (Adam) names all the animals, “but for Adam there was not found an help meet.” It’s a perfectly logical conclusion from the text that this animal parade was intended to derive a help meet for Adam.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Perfectly logical, imperfectly HUMAN conclusion.
    If it’s perfectly logical from the Text, then why did you ASSUME that God’s “realization” came AFTER the animals?? After all, you say that they parade of animals “was intended…” It was not, as the Text shows.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    We are allowed privately to interpret another person’s statements. Private interpretation, however, does not apply to the Word of God.”
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Except in the case of St. Paul.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What case?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    And also when St. Paul is testifying on his own behalf to Timothy.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    What “own behalf”? ALL Scripture is by Inspiration of God. Paul’s testimony is of God, not himself.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Then, why did God create the spirits of Man to be male and female?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This is a foretelling…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    No, it was an action by God.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …of an action God doesn’t actually get around to doing until after Adam’s loneliness is introduced into the story.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God’s creation of the spirit of Man occurs before He physically made Man. The spiritual ALWAYS precedes the physical/natural.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Well, that’s in Genesis Chapter 1, verse 27. In verse 28, He tells them to be fruitful and multiply. Verse 31 identifies these actions as occurring on the sixth day of creation. Immediately thereafter follows the seventh day, when He rests. Yet He doesn’t get around to creating Eve until Chapter 2, verse 22. Is this a flashback to the sixth day?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The chronology is irrelevant.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    So, to YOU, the Guy who created EVERYTHING didn’t anticipate everything. That makes sense to you??
    Steve Sandberg says:
    This goes to the question of why God created the world in the first place.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    John 3:16 [KJV]. The Seven Words of Perfection:

    “For God so loved the world that…”

    Steve Sandberg says:
    The statement that God loved the world He had created doesn’t tell us why He created it.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Cuz He says it is good.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If it is purely and exclusively an expression of His love, it would probably be a much less hostile and turbulent place.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    That’s YOUR imperfect thinking.
    Nevertheless, the world was a much less hostile and turbulent place before Adam and Eve jumped. He gave Man the dignity of choice, and He told us to choose the Blessing, not the curse. That men choose the curse by rejecting the Blessing is not His fault.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Instead, it includes many challenging and testing elements, much misery and disaster, and God’s love is not always foremost among its visible qualities.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    God’s love is visible to all those who have the eyes to see and audible to all those with ears to hear.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If the world is exclusively a demonstration of God’s love, why is it so perilous?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Cuz men choose it to be so. They reject the Blessing.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Mr. Incredible says:
    Therefore, where it looks as though He causes something to happen, He simply allows it to happen, given the condition of the hearts and minds of men.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    If the Flood is a purely natural event…
    Mr. Incredible says:
    It wasn’t.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    …the spiritual condition of men cannot have any bearing on it.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Says who?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    It would be indifferent to their spiritual condition.
    Mr. Incredible asks:
    Again, says who?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    … do you want to have a discussion, or do you just want to be tendentious?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    I’m gonna ask the questions that I wanna ask. If you wanna take my questions as being “tendentious,” so be it. I’m not gonna be corralled into giving only the answers you want. You ask your questions, and I’ll answer. I’ll ask my questions, and, if you wanna answer, you can. If you don’t, and you wanna spend your time and effort characterizing my methods, be my guest.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Steve Sandberg says:
    Their spiritual condition can only have relevance to God.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Are you God? Do YOU set the rules?
    Steve Sandberg says:
    When a tornado rips the roof off a church and kills the entire congregation, is their spiritual condition of relevance to the tornado? Or, instead, is it of relevance to God independently of the tornado?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    Only God knows, for sure.
    However, the Word of God says that the world, before Adam and Eve jumped, was perfect.
    Given that these things are in the world, God has given us a way for adversity to have no more authority over our lives. Those who reject that are vulnerable to circumstances. It’s possible that those in that church are not fully on board.

  • Mr. Incredible

    Steve Sandberg says:
    And the Flood and men’s spiritual condition can only be relevant to each other if the Flood is a supernatural event.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    The Flood is the result of evil forces in the universe. Evil forces cannot touch you, if you don’t turn your back on God. That’s the deal. This isn’t, “Let’s Make a Deal.”
    So those God promised us evil in the universe came back to haunt those who did evil. Evil meant it for bad, but God turned it into good for the Righteous. The Flood did not touch the Righteous.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    In 2001 Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson got into trouble for comments asserting that the 9/11 attacks had largely been brought about by behaviors in our society that God disapproves of, and were somewhat deserved as a punitive action which God allowed to take place… similarly to the Flood.
    Mr. Incredible says:
    By turning their backs on God, they, themselves, allow adversity. They give license to the hurts in the universe.
    If Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson said, in precise terms, that God punished us, they’re, therefore, wrong.
    Steve Sandberg says:
    Now the other day, we had this bomb that failed to go off in the same place, Times Square, presumptively perpetrated by the same forces. Since that attack failed, would it be logical to assume that God is more approving of us in 2010 than He was in 2001?
    Mr. Incredible says:
    No.

  • allen woodie

    I sugest that the leaders of sodom would agree with Rabbi Brad !

  • http://www.thejudaicastore.com/33-synagogue-furniture Synagogue Furniture

    True Steve:
    Now the other day, we had this bomb that failed to go off in the same place, Times Square, presumptively perpetrated by the same forces. Since that attack failed, would it be logical to assume that God is more approving of us in 2010 than He was in 2001?
    Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/windowsanddoors/2010/04/is-homosexuality-an-abominatio.html#ixzz0p8Yortus

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posted 2:40:58pm Sep. 08, 2011 | read full post »

Gilad Shalit, Still A Prisoner After 1,900 Days
Below is a copy of the Statement I got from the White House, and while I appreciate the words, I can't help but also ask, "Is this the best we can do?"  United States Mission to the United Nations Office of Press and Public Diplomacy 799 United Nations Plaza New York, NY 10017 (212) 41

posted 9:04:17am Sep. 08, 2011 | read full post »




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