Windows and Doors

Windows and Doors


Mormon Arrogance Meets Jewish Victimhood in Conversion Dispute

posted by Brad Hirschfield

The long-simmering dispute between Jewish leaders, particularly the children of Holocaust survivors, and the Church of Latter Day Saints (the Mormons) is boiling over. And as is often the case, the issue at hand is not really the problem. It’s merely the battleground being used by each side to pursue a whole other agenda. That is probably why the two groups are talking past each other, with neither side getting any satisfaction.
In case you didn’t know, LDS has a standing practice of performing posthumous conversions. That’s right; they convert people after they have died. Basically it boils down to their desire to keep families together in the after-life.

Mormons believe that when they die they will be reunited with family members who were faithful Mormons. Thus, church members have a solemn obligation to identify the deceased — especially those who weren’t Mormons — and baptize them by proxy to give them the option of accepting Christ and becoming Mormon in the afterlife.

Not surprisingly, the children of people who died because they were Jews find this especially offensive. There is a particularly bitter irony to this practice given that during the Holocaust, living Jews were not able to convert out of the Jewish faith in order to save their own lives, even if they wanted to.
So the Mormon’s practice is a kind of twisted double whammy, which offers the wrong solution to a problem that doesn’t even exist. But that is not how church leaders see it at all. They think that they are doing these souls a favor, making what they call a “freewill offering” which “should not be a source of friction to anyone”. Are they kidding?
It’s not that I doubt the sincerity of the LDS leadership, but it’s hard to understand how they miss the implication of what they are doing or why it might be deeply painful to the families of those whom they have converted. It’s hard to understand how they miss the perceived ugliness of anything that even smacks of forced conversion, especially for people who have been forcibly converted or died resisting such efforts for two thousand years.
So why do they keep at it? Are they that mean-spirited? I don’t think so. They look so clean cut and speak so nicely when they offer their faith in the world. So what’s really going on?


What’s going on is that this is not about a few Jews, or even the doctrine of posthumous conversion.
This is about a twisted understanding of religious freedom which accepts none of the obligations which accompany the kind of religious freedom we treasure in this country. This is about Mormons insisting on their right to do what they want no matter how much pain it causes others. As LDS leader, Lance B. Wickman, told the AP, “We don’t think any faith group has the right to ask another to change its doctrines”.
Of course, he is correct that no one faith group should ask another to change its doctrines. But one group can point out how the practice of those doctrines is hurtful. And then, it becomes the obligation of those causing the pain, not to change their doctrines, but to consider how to fulfill them differently. And at the very least, to consider a response that is more sensitive than “you can’t make me stop, so why should I?”
This is all especially ironic given the history of persecution faced by Mormons, especially in the years their faith was founded. How many Mormons suffered because other Christians felt that they had the right to persecute them? In many instances, those persecuting Mormons did have the law on their side. But just because we have the right to do something, doesn’t make it the right thing to do.
Of course, it would not hurt for Jewish leaders to chill out a bit also. After all, unless they really buy into LDS doctrine, the church’s actions are totally irrelevant. And if they do buy into the doctrine, then the church is doing their dead relatives a favor!
I don’t mean to sound glib, but invoking the Holocaust may not be the most appropriate way to address this situation. Mormons didn’t perpetrate the Holocaust and to the extent that they believe they are actually performing a service to those departed souls, such arguments can not really be appreciated.
Both Jews and Mormons have suffered because of their beliefs. No, the two are not equivalent. But if your Mormon relative was murdered because of his or her faith, that distinction is probably (appropriately?) lost on you. So wearing the mantle of the world’s greatest victims is not likely to bring a solution.
Both Mormons and Jews have a vested interest in maintaining religious liberty in this nation. And both have a vested interest in assuring that the liberty exercised by any one group, not trump that of others. We actually share a common fate in this world, even if we do not believe that same can be said for our fate in the next world.
Perhaps a better route to resolving this conflict could be found, not by invoking past history or current rights, but in nurturing genuine relationships which create obligations between both communities – obligations born of mutual understanding and greater respect. I look forward to hearing from any in the LDS community who are interested in walking down that road with me.



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Steve

posted November 14, 2008 at 2:26 pm


If I were to say the words “Hocus pocus, allakazaam, Rabbi Hirschfield is now a Rastafarian,” would you then starting twining your hair into dreadlocks and finding a ganja dealer?
For those offended, I understand the feeling, but I think it’s misplaced. Don’t dignify the ceremony by resenting it, please.



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Your Name

posted November 15, 2008 at 10:29 am


Mornin, Arrogance? Was surprised to see this in my daily inbox, the issue seems to arise every few months, I’m always amazed that with the continual death and destruction in the world, this issue can generate passion, howsomeever, my comment is this: LDS=Mormon Church, but LDS does not equal Mormons..It’s Mormons (individual people like me) who perform ordinances for their kindred dead. I have no recent (last 1000 years) Jewish ancestors, so I’m not directly part of the “problem”. But if I did, I respectfully submit that no one has the right to tell me I can’t be sealed/linked to them. Sorry bout that. It is not the Mormon Church doing anything to anyone. The doctrine of the church dose provide the framework for this to happen, but if you tell LDS members that because they are descended from Jews they are second class Mormons, and can not fully participate in the religions’ ordinances, a real disservice has been done. I read Jewish wisdom every day, it’s a tremendously rich and fertile field, I constantly learn new valuable things, it saddens me that people whom I respect and admire can find fault with a practice that intends to bind families together forever..__Regards, Fred



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Donald Wolberg

posted November 15, 2008 at 10:37 am


In some sense Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens have it right; nonsense is nonsense, no matter what the brand. Sp-called prophets ascending to “heaven” on the backs of white horses (of course white), is an example of utter nonsense. The sillyness of cults with Jesus appearing in America and preaching to the “Lost Tribes” (Hebrews) and golden tablets is utter and complete nonsense in an age where little robots wander the Martian landscape and archaeology is a mature science. The insult of “conversion” of dead Jews is but one more example of nonsense that is also insulting, but Jews are aquainted with nonsense and insults. The theory of the absurd is alive and well, I guess and the wonder of America is that we tolerate the absurd and insulting to gain the brilliant and sensitive. But, no where is it written that Jews or non-Jews are required to do so silently.



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daniel sachs

posted November 15, 2008 at 11:08 am


I thought this issue had been put to bed years ago, with the LDS agreeing to refrain from these post-mortem conversions. Why is it now again raising its ugly head?



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Your Name

posted November 15, 2008 at 11:51 am


I existed for a time in Salt Lake, and was exposed to their deepest beliefs.____For one, they consider Jews their “royal cousins.” Yet, knowing so little about Judaism as many of them do, I would be most embarassed to proclaim a such a kinship were I a Mormon.____For another, while washing my car on a Sunday, I was railed at by a neighbor for “not observing the Sabbath.” So, I agreed not to wash my car on a Sunday if he would stop working in his garden on a Saturday, which is my Sabbath. Somehow, he could not see my point of view.____And yet another: as I see Mormonism, they believe in blind faith… to follow their leaders without question. In Judaism, from very young, Jewish children are encouraged to question, to seek for the answers themselves. Where is the compatibility, the meeting of minds, the coming to an agreement?____As a Jew, I am a Jew, and nothing a Mormon can do would change that. If they decide to baptize me or my own after I die, that does not mean it would be something that I would have to accept in the afterlife…should we happen to meet there.



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Upstate

posted November 15, 2008 at 12:04 pm


In my surfing of the internet I have found that their are Mormon liberals who are not so unlike liberal Jews, or liberal Christians, etc. Of course these indviduals are not the the same persons as the members of the polygamist FLDS. I bring this up to point out that each religion contains a diversity of viewpoints and our relgion does not define us. Religious practices can be changed if people find it in their hearts and conscience to do so. Yes, the Creator is the final judge, but even Abraham argued with the Lord when his heart compelled him to do so.



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Debra

posted November 15, 2008 at 12:07 pm


Fred,
My reaction to statements in your answer like, “no one has the right to tell me I can’t be sealed/linked to them. Sorry bout that” is that this is the arrogance referred to in the title of the editorial. I’m sure Jews will take umbrage at the accusation of “victimhood,” regardless of how accurately others may find the description.
No one is telling Mormons what they can and can’t do. Jews are telling the LDS Institution that their practices are hurting PEOPLE. How LDS responds to that speaks volumes. A response that shows that LDS cares about their impact would be something like, “Hmmm, let’s see how we might link to our families for eternity and not, inadvertantly, offend others in the process.”
What a beautiful practice to want to be linked to our families for eternity (well, for most of us, anyway). How unfortunate that this loving practice is colored by how negatively it affects others.
Nowhere in your comments, Fred, do I see acknowledgement that the practice could feel hurtful. That takes nothing away from you to allow for that. In fact, it shows that you care enough about your “Royal Cousins” to recognize that you may be – inadvertantly – hurting them. Not your intent, certainly, but the impact, nonetheless.
There needs to be dialogue between Jews and Mormons – people – to hear and educate one another, create understanding and respect of one anothers’ history, faith, and practies. Trying to find a way so that both sides feel heard, respected, and get their interests – not their positions – met.



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Gregory Matthews

posted November 15, 2008 at 12:35 pm


Dear Rabbi Hirschfield,
In regards to your article “Mormon Arrogance Meets Jewish Victimhood in Conversion Dispute” dated 11/14/08. I believe I have a unique perspective on this, being raised in the LDS faith, ordained into the LDS priesthood as a very young man. I also must state that I left the LDS faith in my later teens for many reasons; this was not one of them. But I need to make it clear; I am very / very Christian and like an earlier commenter, find this site a wonderful source of information and insight to the Jewish people today, your history and the faith you observe as a people; all of which I do with great admiration generally.
Even though I consider myself to be a man of faith, I do not and will never again be bound to any religious denomination or sect. That decision falls under all major faiths, Christian, Jewish or ever Muslim. G-d is G-d, and he is G-d the Father. Our Lord has graced me with a good life, but it is a life earned thru Him, and by Him. Religious infighting or slandering or insulting people of different beliefs does no one any good as with some commenter’s to your article seemed to be compelled to do, or simply can’t help themselves. In the end, it is He who will decide, not us with our simplistic humanist ignorant view points; all we can do is our best and constantly pray we are doing His will, not ours. Whether deemed foolish or not by others.
So in the end, why worry about a humanist practice that according to your own beliefs is not effective and only you can make it relevant, why be offended by it if you are firm in your faith? In your eyes it is a folly, in the Christian bible and in the Torah does it not teach how not to allow ourselves to be drawn into that kind of thing. It takes away from what is truly important. I do not believe this is a practice that is intended to hurt or insult those of the Jewish faith or decent; it is in their eyes a practice is an act of love. It does not violate your personal space; it does not rob you of your personal property nor does it define the life of the person, or change the way that person lived or died, this act does not re-write history.
Why do we always seem to be looking for a way to be offended by the acts of others, my personal acts / actions & heart are all that are really important.
Regarding my faith, I worship with a Messianic Jewish congregation; I know a lot of Jews find that offensive; should I give up my worship; because it offends some Jews? The world our G-d put us into is a two way street. Radical Fascist Muslims (Islamofascism is the term for it today) is offended by Jews, should we allow them to wipe out Israel? No I think not. Only the sick and twisted could ever believe that our G-d expects us to murder and slaughter the innocent and then justify those actions in His name.
As I concluded this letter, I realized I needed to make it clear, that my faith journey within Messianic Jewish community is not one of seeking cultural alignment / home, but a spiritual journey in nature, I seek no culture to indentify with. I’ve found over the years many people confuse my practices for some looking for something to connect too; me, I’m seeking “Him” :):).
With Great Respect,
Gregory R. Matthews



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mellie

posted November 15, 2008 at 2:29 pm


If the attitude protrayed by this article is how the jews are talking to the Latter-Day_saints That may be the reason for the fight. IF you do not beleve the morman faith then You have no reasons to worry. So let Mormans do thier thing ,do yours and Leave the Mormans alone.



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LAURA MUSHKAT

posted November 15, 2008 at 2:46 pm


This of all the things done by one religon that DOES NOT affect another religon that is much to do about nothing takes the cake.
The Morman convert wants to believe that their families will all be in heaven with them and doing this makes them feel better. So what!
According to the laws of all other religons it has no significance.
The only time such a thing would matter is if the Morman convert would say OK now I want permission to get all the bodies removed from other gravesites(in this case Jewish)and put in Morman ones with new headstones proclaiming the change in faith. Unless one was a billionaire this would be so expensive as to not be even thought of. I would also most likely not be even allowed to be brought up in the courts.
Let them play their little games and start thinking about things that are more important.
Hugs
Laura



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Your Name

posted November 15, 2008 at 5:14 pm


Mormons are our nosey neighbors, the busybodies of the religous world. Everywhere you go there are fresh-faced young Mormon boys, wearing white shirts and riding bikes, attempting to dispense spiritual advice to…everyone. It was the Mormon church that to a great extent, bankrolled the Proposition Eight campaign here in California. They advertise in magazines and on TV, always showing a pretty,happy, healthy young family doing nice, family things. It is not at all surprising that they convert dead people. They are so earnest and energetic and, well, NOSEY.____ I am sort of offended by the idea that they convert dead Jews. It is really CREEPY! I am also somewhat amused by it. It is funny. ____ My best friend in high school was Mormon and I still remember when we were Freshman and she was talking about her faith. At fourteen-years-old, I was old enough to know about tact but not yet mature enought to remember how to use it. Wide-eyed, I looked at her and said, “But you don’t acutally BELIEVE that stuff, do you?” As soon as it left my mouth I realized just how rude it was. Too late. Fortunately, she did not get too mad and we remained friends.____Lucy G.



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Rebecca

posted November 15, 2008 at 8:01 pm


It is my belief that once you’re dead these types of “spells” and things don’t work on you.
Someone who is not of the Jewish faith coming over you and saying a prayer that you and yours see as mislead doesn’t, like, change where you’re going.
The Mormons believe they’re the original Israelites in the Bible. They also believe that the area in Utah is the Promised Land.
Does that REALLY affect YOU and where you stand in your beliefs?
Have some faith!
(This is directed at those that have a problem with the Mormons praying some prayer over the dead)



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Larry Lennhoff

posted November 15, 2008 at 8:51 pm


This has come up repeatedly in the past several years. Frankly, I am most disturbed by the fact that the Mormons have repeatedly promised they would cease the practice, and then not fulfilled their promise. They worship the G-d of truth, so they should walk in G-d’s ways.
My standard response to this issue, which was originally posted on Beliefnet, is kept on my blog.



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Scott R.

posted November 15, 2008 at 9:18 pm


In 50 years, when all the Holocaust victims are baptized, the neo-Nazis will be able to look at the records and say “See – no Jews died in the Holocaust. Only Mormons did.”
Thanks LDS.



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Chaya Long

posted November 15, 2008 at 10:54 pm


I converted FROM Christianity TO Judaism, and now someone is going to pray over my grave and convert me back???? Let’s see. How does that work? I don’t have say yes, or do anything, and after I’m dead, I’m back to being a Christian? Good luck with that LDS.



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Thomas Beck

posted November 15, 2008 at 11:04 pm


Oddly, this is about the only time I’ve ever agreed with Rabbi Hirschfield. I do not care what the Mormons do – they can no more posthumously “convert” anyone than they can flap their arms and fly to the Moon. By Jewish law, anyone who was born a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew, is and always will be a Jew. Period. End of discussion.
Granted, it is offensive for Mormons to announce that they are pretending to do this, but if they want to look to the entire world like offensive fools, that’s their problem. The best thing for Jews to do is completely ignore their provocation and let them waste their time without wasting ours.



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Hoffa from the Left side

posted November 16, 2008 at 2:04 am


We are all ONE…As soon as WE, can all realize this, then we will all be happy. Remember, were here for a good time, not a long time. Think positive thoughts because thoughts become things. Happy Saturday to all



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pete

posted November 16, 2008 at 12:10 pm


Chaya Long, and others: if you were converted to mormonism, you would not be converting “back” to Christianity. Mormonism is NOT Christianity. The founders of the mormon church, in the early days of the USA, mentioned Christ in order to patronize the predominantly Christian populace and attempt to gain acceptance. LDS belief is that Christ is one of many sons of God and is a figurehead, not the one and only Son of God; among many other significant differences between mormonism and Christianity.



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new beginning

posted November 16, 2008 at 12:36 pm


2 points:
The Sabbath is Saturday (or from Friday sundown to Saturday sundown) so the Sunday v Sabbath problem is not. At least as far as the Xians I know.
Judaism says we are all children of G-d and the faiths of others are not a barrier to enter/return to Him.



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Eli Jeremiah

posted November 16, 2008 at 1:57 pm


Who caaaaaares?
Rabbi, you defended supporters of Prop 8, which was led by Mormons who out-spent every other group in pushing to take away the rights of gay families. So while you support Mormons actively discriminating against gays,you’re whining about the “rights” of dead Jewish people being violated because this cult is doing some insanely stupid ritual to “convert” Jews after their deaths.
It really makes me think Jews are more important than any other group–even Jews who are no longer living!!!! Please, get over yourself. If you want people to care about Jewish concerns, why don’t you listen to the concerns of others?



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Fred

posted November 16, 2008 at 2:47 pm


“Debra __November 15, 2008 12:07 PM__Fred,__My reaction to statements in your answer like, “no one has the right to tell me I can’t be sealed/linked to them. Sorry bout that” is that this is the arrogance referred to in the title of the editorial. I’m sure Jews will take umbrage at the accusation of “victimhood,” regardless of how accurately others may find the description.”____Hi Debra, I have to agree with you a bit, my remark does sound somewhat arrogant, and I’m sorry for that. The main point I tried (not very succesfully aparently to make) was:____The LDS Church is NOT the one doing these ordinances, the LDS people are. The LDS Church made an agreement years ago and has upheld it. The Church can not tell it’s members that they can not be sealed to their kindred dead if those ancestors are Jewish. LDS members with Jewish ancestors have all tyhe same rights as members as anyone else, as it should be.__If there is more interest in what the Latter-day Saints believe, visit http://www.mormon.org. If folks would rather just bash us and our beliefs, it is, for the most part, a free country..Fred____



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Scott R.

posted November 16, 2008 at 7:26 pm


“The LDS Church is NOT the one doing these ordinances, the LDS people are. The LDS Church made an agreement years ago and has upheld it. The Church can not tell it’s members that they can not be sealed to their kindred dead if those ancestors are Jewish.”
That’s really quite a lot of nonsense. The LDS have more control of their members’ lives than any other religious group in this country. If the church says “Stop”, the members have to listen.
Personally, I believe baptism is an empty ritual that confers nothing. And our dead can’t be hurt anymore than they already have been. But if we say “Please don’t, we find it offensive”, and we are ignored, do not expect any respect in return.



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Ann

posted November 17, 2008 at 8:20 am


Rabbi, if you reference the “Mormon” church in future posts, please note the the correct name of the church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints”, not the The Church of Latter Day Saints. I understand the frustration and pain at the LDS idea of baptism for the dead, but Mormons are not “converting” the dead, or making them Mormon! The LDS believe that certain things must be done while on earth that cannot happen without a body, such as baptism, in order to live with G-d. The dead person is then free to receive or reject the baptism in the spirit world. I recognize that this position is most likely still offensive, but it truly is born of a deep belief that it is a neccessary thing for the salvation of all souls. If you believe that it is nonsense, then I don’t think you need to worry about it. I grew up LDS, and I no longer accept the church’s teachings, but I do know that most LDS people are good and kind, and sincerely believe they are doing what G-d wants them to do.



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A.W. Bowman

posted November 17, 2008 at 10:34 am


In reviewing the article and the several comments it has generated, I find a number of excellent points being made by most everyone who has taken the time and effort of contribute. However, there remains several points should be dusted off. I will address just one.
There is more to the ritual of baptisms within the Hebrew culture than is recognized by the majority of Gentile religions, and according to Judaism that includes the LDS church and its members. The very act of appropriating a very important religious practice from another belief system, changing it to meet your own religious doctrines and holding it up before the original practitioners of the ritual and declaring that it is just too bad you find this hurtful” could be seen as being offensive by some. This is especially so when it involves the impacting the memory of loved ones who would be considered martyrs of the faith in any other religion. This become even more of an issue when it perpetrated by a group of “Jews” who did not storm the halls of our government demanding that the persecuted Jews of Europe be allowed to enter this nation, and to be welcomed and reestablished into the area(s) dominated by LDS members.
When the care of a man’s soul is expressed only after they have been murdered and not while they were still alive, when a mikvah is created that does not conform to either the deceased or their descendents religious beliefs and practices, and when an acceptable tevilah is no longer possible to be performed, then we find terms like “arrogance” and “victimhood” being applied.
While Rabbi Hirschfield touched only on the surface of this issue it should have been enough for at least a serious reflection of how one’s “public” actions can bring pain to another. And, it certainly does nothing to facility making Mormon converts of observant Jews.
This practice is something akin to having Catholics baptize one another who has a Mormon ancestor murdered at the hands of “Christians” when the LDS church was just getting started. Remember the history of that persecution? Well, in order that these poor martyred Mormon souls may be released from purgatory and accept the Catholic faith, we will be baptized for them. Now they can choose the true Catholic religion while they are in the spirit realm, should they wish. Now, if this were a true practice, would not some Mormons take offence to it?
Even with all of this, Rebbe still recognizes that “…invoking the Holocaust may not be the most appropriate way to address this situation.”, and yet he still holds out the olive branch to those who will accept it. In essences he clearly stated,” Do whatever your faith/religion requires you to do, but, please don’t push it in our face.
The real issue that has been mostly overlooked or even ignored is this:
“Perhaps a better route to resolving this conflict could be found, not by invoking past history or current rights, but in nurturing genuine relationships which create obligations between both communities – obligations born of mutual understanding and greater respect.” Now, what is there about this position that is so intolerable?



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Robert

posted November 18, 2008 at 12:21 am


I’m a baptized Catholic.
It wasn’t my idea. It wasn’t my parents’ idea. At the age of 26, I was visiting a kibbutz in Israel and we took a day trip to the Jordan River. A Catholic tourist scooped up some water, splashed it in my face, and pronounced “In the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, I baptize you,” you are now a Catholic.
She was quite serious. Catholic teaching allows this. Guess what? I have no desire to eat fish on Friday nor do I need to practice cannibalism. It didn’t work.
Should it offend that a Jew would be baptized a Catholic against his will in the very River Jordan?
Well, to me, there are much more important things to get worked up about. They can just keep that incense thing out of my face and we’ll find a way to get along.



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eastcoastlady

posted November 18, 2008 at 9:03 am


Eli Jeremiah,
It seems you have nothing better to do than to tell the Rabbi to stop concentrating on issues important to Jews on his various blogs.
What do you think that says about you?
Or do you even care?



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Scott

posted November 18, 2008 at 3:27 pm


Not to worry!
I’ve performed the secret Jewish ritual that automatically undoes all post death conversions. It’s the ancient incantation, “I’m rubber and you’re glue and everything you do to us bounces right back and sticks to you.”
Thus, each Moronmen conversion carries with it the instantaneous re-conversion of the ancestor to the Jewish people. No need to wait for Kol Nidre.



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Eli Jeremiah

posted November 18, 2008 at 4:45 pm


East Coast Lady,
Wrong. I’ve only said that on two relevant blogs. The first was because the rabbi was defending anti-gay bigots. And then on this one, he was whining about anti-Semitism being perpertrated by the Mormons–one of the VERY SAME groups he just defended for being anti-gay. I’m making the point that Rabbi Hirschfield defended one kind of prejudice while making a huge deal out of “prejudice” against his tribe. And what’s sooooo funny (and predictable) is that the prejudice he was defending was actually taking away people’s rights, while the “prejudice” he was complaining about was ridiculous.
Contrary to what you may think, Jews are NOT the only minority in the world. Sorry, they just aren’t. Don’t expect people to care about your concerns when you don’t care about others’.



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C. Brown

posted November 19, 2008 at 11:27 am


I had a Mormon tell me that I was turned black because Cain killed Abel, that Jesus had blonde hair and blue eyes, that the darker you were, the more evil you were….so who cares what they think? They are arrogant and ignorant.



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eastcoastlady

posted November 19, 2008 at 12:56 pm


Eli Jeremiah,
I remember a “comic” strip a long time ago that read, “The narrower the mind, the broader the statement.”
I never said, nor implied, that I felt Jews were the only minority, nor did I in any way state or imply that we’re the only victims.
I care deeply about many prejudices and other peolple’s struggles. Please do not pigeon hole me.



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Your Name

posted November 20, 2008 at 2:02 pm


Sorry to mischaracterize you, Eastcoastlady.



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Eli Jeremiah

posted November 20, 2008 at 2:04 pm


That last comment was mine. I forgot to write my name.



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S. Levy

posted November 20, 2008 at 7:07 pm


Mormon-Shmormon, Moslem-Shmoslem, Protestant-Shmotestant, Catholic-Shmotholic… religions invented by inferiotity complexed incompetents who rave and rant, who in their very intimate and deepest subconscious know they’re wrong and we are right. Who seek to destroy us because of this truth.
We are 5769 years! (that’s no grammar mistake, believe you me…) We are Hashem’s and Hashem is ours.
He delivered us from paganism, from doing wrong, from lies, from everything bad in the world. The others, the Goim, hate us for this, they know down deep that they’re wrong!
Hashem gave us the Law, gave us the true way of life, of everything noble, of elevating our spirit and souls. No one shall take this from us.
Shmormons can rave and rant, it’s no use, stick to your own, mind your own business, go look for underage girls, congregate in Salt Lake; BUT LEAVE US ALONE – WE DON’T WANT YOU NOR NEED YOU.
Those who don’t like it just too bad! It’s a fact and facts can’t be contested.
KOL HAI AM ISRAEL, KOL HAI BENÉ ISRAEL.



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Corinne Blackmer

posted January 28, 2009 at 6:19 pm


I have no words adequate to convey my sorrow, disgust, contempt, and revulsion for a religion, Mormonism, that would presume innocence in such an abominable act of transgression, disrespect, desecration, and denial. I ask them to search their hearts, and then consult history. The doctrinaire refusal to admit wrong, hurt, and profoundly immoral conduct is destructive, and, most of all, destructive to Mormonism.
I embrace my faith, Judaism, with renewed fervor–may Ha-Shem continue to watch over his people==and I will not leave this life without having found the means to stop this grotesque pagan, irreligious assault against my ancestors, my faith, my people, my history, and the precepts of a just and holy G-d.



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Nathan Nice

posted March 28, 2009 at 6:30 pm


To S.Levi: Don’t Jews have enough enemies? I have to say though, I appreciate your comment. I can finally understand what people are talking about when they bring up the hidden “right to rule all”. You all are great actors! But then again if your all so tough,why would you need to be?



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Nathan Nice

posted March 28, 2009 at 6:50 pm


To S.Levi: Don’t Jews have enough enemies? I have to say though, I appreciate your comment. I can finally understand what people are talking about when they bring up the hidden “right to rule all”. You are great actors! But then again if your so “tough”, why would you need to be? P.S.-Without are muscle, you are rubble. You should be stroking Americans through this greatest robbery of all time. When times get hard people blame the top and Jews are historically at the top. Work ethic vs. conspiracy aside, this is fact. A good start to protecting your interests in this country is not picking a fight and throwing away ties to a religion that has very REAL control over the inter-mountain northwest no matter how UNREAL you claim their faith to be. Treat retards as such. They need special care. Don’t alienate them.



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Ron Davis

posted March 20, 2012 at 5:42 pm


The Mormon’s have a lot of weird behaviors and beliefs. One is the belief that they can become Gods, once exalted. Another is the action of the Donner Party where they ended up eating each other, so that a few could survive. They are extremely arrogant and self righteous, but will fail soon.



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Deb

posted July 5, 2012 at 12:38 am


I find Mormons extremely judgmental and arrogant. I work alongside one that chastizes everyone. But yet he’s very materialistic, condescending to others and insensitive. Everyone has got it wrong and He’s the all knowing! I say ‘get over yourselves’ and start accepting your brothers and sisters.



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