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Hypocrisy vs. Violence in the Holy Land

The gay pride parade planned to take place in Jerusalem on Friday has created a fierce debate over the limits of freedom of expression in Israel. Israel’s extreme haredi (ultra-Orthodox) groups are threatening violence–they’ve been staging violent demonstrations for weeks in anticipation, setting fires, even assaulting police–while the GLBT community continues to stick to its guns, ignoring threats and police warnings. Oyyy!!

Both groups are wrong for obvious reasons. C’mon! A rally in Jerusalem is not going to make anybody be more accepting of the GLBT community..it’s only going to breed more social anger. But the violent haredim are more wrong. They continue to be blind to the notion of countries having laws. Just because people say or do something they disagree with does not give them the right to threaten violence.

That said, I would agree with writer Yair Sheleg who, in a very incisive op-ed published in Haaretz, pointed out the hypocrisy of the

“liberal stance [that] is prepared to recognize the rights of Orthodox Jews to live as they choose in their homes, synagogues, and neighborhoods, but denies them the right to interfere in the general public domain that “belongs” only to liberals. That gives rise to repeated arguments regarding billboards, commerce on Shabbat, and also the parade. That is a stand the religious public, particularly the national-religious one, cannot nor should accept in principle. Not only would such a viewpoint possibly preclude the participation of national-religious Jews in the general Israeli arena (we would later ask ourselves why they isolated themselves “like the ultra-Orthodox”): It also transforms the liberal stance that frequently opposes ultra-Orthodox rigidity into another form of zealous Orthodoxy. “

Instead, argues Sheleg:

“the liberal approach must…. maintain its focus on reality and real people rather than abstract principles: in other words, the determined battle for the rights of same-sex couples to maintain relationships, but not necessarily the inflexible demand to demonstrate that right in every street in Israel. The fact–emphasized by those who support the parade–that ultra-Orthodox Jews did not always oppose previous similar parades in Jerusalem, actually serves the ultra-Orthodox position. It proves that the provocative aspect of the parade, rather than the event itself, is the bone of contention.”



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Scott

posted November 7, 2006 at 2:17 pm


They all need to compromise. Children must play nicely together.



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John Perepchu

posted November 7, 2006 at 6:51 pm


Sadly for the gay pride activist to demonstrate in the Holy Land is wrong. It is a sin but violence is not the answer. If this is to be alowed the Muslim extremist will have a field day. With Jews fighting and attacking Jews.



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Tzvi

posted November 7, 2006 at 10:07 pm


Personally I find the Haredi almost laughable….they want the right to run the contry and “forget” that there are laws, that are there for all people. Not just them. Makes you wonder what they would be like if the majority ever really tried to take the government and all the subsidies, and the fact that they can “opt out” of the required military service away, and make them serve like everyone else.



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Tzvi

posted November 7, 2006 at 10:07 pm


Personally I find the Haredi almost laughable….they want the right to run the contry and “forget” that there are laws, that are there for all people. Not just them. Makes you wonder what they would be like if the majority ever really tried to take the government and all the subsidies, and the fact that they can “opt out” of the required military service away, and make them serve like everyone else.



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Donny

posted November 9, 2006 at 3:00 pm


It is very alarming that anyone that dissents of homosexuality is driven to exist in Ghettos. In America, it is OK to be religious ONLY if you stty in your “places of worship.” And if you dare speak out against gay sex you can lose your tax exemption at the least. So it’s OK to proclaim how you like anal and oral sex with same-gendered people. But it’s wrong to proclaim how you love G-d? Anyone catching on to what’s happneing? I thought Sodom was a myth?



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Leigh Anne

posted November 9, 2006 at 5:44 pm


I was watching an example of a gay parade done in the Middle East, and to be honest parts of it made me sick. There was nothing to be proud of as the half-dressed paraded their sexual desire in public. Gross. If they wanted respect, why not parade and tell all the people the wonderful things people that are gay have done for the country? Share what they have donated to the society and culture, not what their sexual libido can reek upon the nation.



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Leigh Anne

posted November 9, 2006 at 5:44 pm


I was watching an example of a gay parade done in the Middle East, and to be honest parts of it made me sick. There was nothing to be proud of as the half-dressed paraded their sexual desire in public. Gross. If they wanted respect, why not parade and tell all the people the wonderful things people that are gay have done for the country? Share what they have donated to the society and culture, not what their sexual libido can reek upon the nation.



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Yossel

posted November 9, 2006 at 9:41 pm


B”H Leigh Anne: Right On!!!!!



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Yossel

posted November 9, 2006 at 9:41 pm


B”H Leigh Anne: Right On!!!!!



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 8:59 am


actually serves the ultra-Orthodox position. It proves that the provocative aspect of the parade, rather than the event itself, is the bone of contention.” It serves no such thing. It’s already been stated that the parade itself their is their problem, no retracting now – But, interestingly, it’s parade that is being considered by some to BE homosexuality (apparently, they believe homosexuality to be anything as simple as uttering “I’m gay”, and beyond) That said, it proves that either there are different (more violent) people than in previous years, or the same people and they are just wishy-washy.



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 8:59 am


actually serves the ultra-Orthodox position. It proves that the provocative aspect of the parade, rather than the event itself, is the bone of contention.” It serves no such thing. It’s already been stated that the parade itself their is their problem, no retracting now – But, interestingly, it’s parade that is being considered by some to BE homosexuality (apparently, they believe homosexuality to be anything as simple as uttering “I’m gay”, and beyond) That said, it proves that either there are different (more violent) people than in previous years, or the same people and they are just wishy-washy.



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 9:01 am


If they wanted respect.. IF, my foot. Since you expect respect, you need to give it, and stop conjuring up excuses for why you shouldn’t give it up – especially when your best retort is that they are displaying…OMG…sexuality. Of course, you probably think the negative attitude your’re displaying here about some people’s sexuality is something to be proud of, (which is really about to break the irony meter) yet you’d probably be hard pressed to show how that approach has enriched people’s lives in the least.



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 9:01 am


If they wanted respect.. IF, my foot. Since you expect respect, you need to give it, and stop conjuring up excuses for why you shouldn’t give it up – especially when your best retort is that they are displaying…OMG…sexuality. Of course, you probably think the negative attitude your’re displaying here about some people’s sexuality is something to be proud of, (which is really about to break the irony meter) yet you’d probably be hard pressed to show how that approach has enriched people’s lives in the least.



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 9:03 am


It is very alarming that anyone that dissents of homosexuality is driven to exist in Ghettos. No, what’s very alarming is this rise of bigots trying to co-opt language of persecution – especially when they operate with twisted facts. Homsexuality is NOT a belief system, nor a gov’t madanted practice, so what exactly are you “dissenting” from? If anyone is dissenting, it is precisely those resisting the fasict gender stratification of those who think they have some kind of special/direct line to God (it’s Will) and therby have a right to enshrine their concepts into every legal institution. And apparently FORCE, not dissent (go figure) is the principle since the minorities don’t get to reject the majority’s rules. I bet Aryans and other “racial purists” thought they were being driven to “Ghettos” too when people didn’t accept their bogus pretense about the how it was imperative to the moral stability of the nation that people uphold their racial paradigms. Morality has nothing to do with any of it. It’s prejudice pure and simple…against anyone who does not conform to some imposed archetype. So it’s OK to proclaim how you like anal and oral sex with same-gendered people. But it’s wrong to proclaim how you love G-d? So it’s OK to proclaim how you like anal and oral sex with different-gendered people? Now, I must admit, the logical connection between the two statements is a mystery to me. Nevertheless, this typical dichtomony of the oh so holy religious person and those “other” people who have…omg…sex is really becoming comical. Anyone catching on to what’s happneing? What – that you’re paranoid?? I thought Sodom was a myth? Good reference. I hear it’s a story about INHOSPITALITY. Perfect theme. Go figure.



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Espiritus85

posted November 10, 2006 at 9:03 am


It is very alarming that anyone that dissents of homosexuality is driven to exist in Ghettos. No, what’s very alarming is this rise of bigots trying to co-opt language of persecution – especially when they operate with twisted facts. Homsexuality is NOT a belief system, nor a gov’t madanted practice, so what exactly are you “dissenting” from? If anyone is dissenting, it is precisely those resisting the fasict gender stratification of those who think they have some kind of special/direct line to God (it’s Will) and therby have a right to enshrine their concepts into every legal institution. And apparently FORCE, not dissent (go figure) is the principle since the minorities don’t get to reject the majority’s rules. I bet Aryans and other “racial purists” thought they were being driven to “Ghettos” too when people didn’t accept their bogus pretense about the how it was imperative to the moral stability of the nation that people uphold their racial paradigms. Morality has nothing to do with any of it. It’s prejudice pure and simple…against anyone who does not conform to some imposed archetype. So it’s OK to proclaim how you like anal and oral sex with same-gendered people. But it’s wrong to proclaim how you love G-d? So it’s OK to proclaim how you like anal and oral sex with different-gendered people? Now, I must admit, the logical connection between the two statements is a mystery to me. Nevertheless, this typical dichtomony of the oh so holy religious person and those “other” people who have…omg…sex is really becoming comical. Anyone catching on to what’s happneing? What – that you’re paranoid?? I thought Sodom was a myth? Good reference. I hear it’s a story about INHOSPITALITY. Perfect theme. Go figure.



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Leigh Anne

posted November 10, 2006 at 4:26 pm


Espiritus85 I have had beloved friends who are/were homosexual. People I loved and and love (some have passed on). The parade I saw was an embarrassment to their gentle memory. They lived, loved (and some have died) being gentle and compassionate souls who did their best to reach out to others. The parade I saw was NOTHING of the sort. It flaunted homosexuality as a bastion of anger and arrogance and yes even pain. I am sorry for those in the parade, but it did nothing to earn my respect. The lives of the men and women I know and knew who loved and served their fellowman even while suffering the disrespect of others…THAT gained my love and respect…a LOT. The parade did not. Period.



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Leigh Anne

posted November 10, 2006 at 4:26 pm


Espiritus85 I have had beloved friends who are/were homosexual. People I loved and and love (some have passed on). The parade I saw was an embarrassment to their gentle memory. They lived, loved (and some have died) being gentle and compassionate souls who did their best to reach out to others. The parade I saw was NOTHING of the sort. It flaunted homosexuality as a bastion of anger and arrogance and yes even pain. I am sorry for those in the parade, but it did nothing to earn my respect. The lives of the men and women I know and knew who loved and served their fellowman even while suffering the disrespect of others…THAT gained my love and respect…a LOT. The parade did not. Period.



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 12:07 am


The only PERIOD that belongs here is that you don’t get to dicate what a parade that has nothing to you should be about, and then descend into a strawman argument about the level of respect that people want. It’s a annual parade with various individual agendas that is reflected by what the individuals do. Some are flamboyant – others are not. It’s an interesting revelation however that everyone except for those (who btw, do not represent a collective “gay community” or homosexuality, only themseves, kind of like SPRING BREAK or CARNIVAL) make a bigger deal about this one day, once a year event than the actual people involved. There are PLENTY of parades in the year that we could say are irrelevant and are about nothing but entertainment, while being meaningful to the people. BUT, the key difference here, is that sexuality, particuarly, gay sexuaity (the boogeyman apparently) is in the mix. Thus, when people react negatively, it’s very telling. And as far as the “gay friends”, I’m always skeptical of that. A lot of people adore their compassionate, funny, non-threatening, gay friends given they can believe that they’re asexual beings. I don’t know if that true of you, but hey.. Now, to bring things back into context, I say that there is indeed hypocrisy and violence, but all coming from one side. When non-Judaic religions, particularly those based a mediator between themsevles and God start being viewed as attacks on the moral sensitivities of the people in Jerusalem, then that label won’t be deserved.



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 12:07 am


The only PERIOD that belongs here is that you don’t get to dicate what a parade that has nothing to you should be about, and then descend into a strawman argument about the level of respect that people want. It’s a annual parade with various individual agendas that is reflected by what the individuals do. Some are flamboyant – others are not. It’s an interesting revelation however that everyone except for those (who btw, do not represent a collective “gay community” or homosexuality, only themseves, kind of like SPRING BREAK or CARNIVAL) make a bigger deal about this one day, once a year event than the actual people involved. There are PLENTY of parades in the year that we could say are irrelevant and are about nothing but entertainment, while being meaningful to the people. BUT, the key difference here, is that sexuality, particuarly, gay sexuaity (the boogeyman apparently) is in the mix. Thus, when people react negatively, it’s very telling. And as far as the “gay friends”, I’m always skeptical of that. A lot of people adore their compassionate, funny, non-threatening, gay friends given they can believe that they’re asexual beings. I don’t know if that true of you, but hey.. Now, to bring things back into context, I say that there is indeed hypocrisy and violence, but all coming from one side. When non-Judaic religions, particularly those based a mediator between themsevles and God start being viewed as attacks on the moral sensitivities of the people in Jerusalem, then that label won’t be deserved.



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Leigh Anne Petersen

posted November 11, 2006 at 11:50 pm


Espiritus85 Anytime ALL the blame is placed only on one side, we need to look again. And to be honest, you know nothing about me nor my family. You only know the segment of the parade I looked at turned me off and took your judgemental assumptions from there. As far as that float I saw with men in their underwear yelling angrily at the crowd turning me off…well…judge me as you will.



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Leigh Anne Petersen

posted November 11, 2006 at 11:50 pm


Espiritus85 Anytime ALL the blame is placed only on one side, we need to look again. And to be honest, you know nothing about me nor my family. You only know the segment of the parade I looked at turned me off and took your judgemental assumptions from there. As far as that float I saw with men in their underwear yelling angrily at the crowd turning me off…well…judge me as you will.



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dagali

posted November 12, 2006 at 3:23 pm


s&g was NO myth.



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dagali

posted November 12, 2006 at 3:23 pm


s&g was NO myth.



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Espiritus85

posted November 13, 2006 at 12:56 am


Tell ‘em. Inhospitality is REAL.



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Espiritus85

posted November 13, 2006 at 12:56 am


Tell ‘em. Inhospitality is REAL.



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