Virtual Talmud

Virtual Talmud


Fear and Homophobia in Jerusalem

Apparently, the planned gay-pride parade through Jerusalem has been cancelled as a result of threats of violence. I agree with Rabbi Grossman that this is a shame: Capitulating to threats only emboldens those who seek to use intimidation as a tool.

Worse still, reports about the cancellation quote Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leaders denouncing the march. With all the vital issues that need moral leadership in the world–from fighting poverty to working to end bloodshed–the one issue that serves to unite everyone is hate.

It is the victory of fear over hope.



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Esther Sternberg

posted November 10, 2006 at 5:12 pm


Rabbi Waxman, I am so saddened by the fact that the Gay Group backed off, and especially because of a fanatic group that does not give the right of life and liberty to anyone that does not agree with their way of life and their liberty. It turns my stomach just to know that they are part of my people. My G-d is a loving God. A G-d that created man in his immage. That means that the Gay man or woman was also created in G-d’s immage. G-d did not make Hitler kill six million Jews. Man allowed Hitler to kill six million Jews.



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Leigh Anne

posted November 10, 2006 at 5:49 pm


The homosexual community was angry over the demonstration of violence. The community that was violent showed its bad side. But what I saw in the middle east gay pride parade that was telecast did no better. It threw sexually rabid half-naked protests in the face of the conservative community. (To me this was violence as well, just of another type, but based on anger and frustration all the same) Israel is called out of the world to be a nation of priests. What does this mean? How should a priest act toward other priests or those they are called to minister to? What are the qualities of a priest that make them a great minister? How can Israel learn to show these traits to the world? Being a priest to the world is pretty hard when you are stuck in a ghetto (by choice or not)



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Joanne

posted November 10, 2006 at 8:56 pm


I fully agree with Rabbi Waxman’s comments. We should not hate anyone or try to intimidate them. Jo, Sydney Australia



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 2:14 am


Leigh Anne, you’re a funny one. Nudity as violence??? LOL And I’m very intrigued as to why some Christians are adding their negativity – especially when some of the same Orthodox people view their entire religion as sinful idolatry – although chances are in thier case, they would be spared protests of this magnitude if they were expressing faith in Jerusalem as opposed to a group of glbt people having a sensuous parade (aka. homosexuality itself, if you let some people tell it)



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Tom

posted November 11, 2006 at 1:09 pm


I thought homosexuality was against Jewish Relirious Law; Leviticus 18, verse 22? So why should Jews even think that it is OK for Gay Rights? I am glad it was banned!



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Tom

posted November 11, 2006 at 1:14 pm


Rabbii Waxman is half right. God loves the individual, but hates the sin. I am opposed to anyone who breaks God’s Laws. Man made laws do not superceed God’s Laws! Call them homosexuals, gays or queers, they are refusing to obey God and his laws. Oh Jeruslum, I weep for you and your history of disobey and turning your back on God and his Laws. Remember your history of when you turned your back on god, and his punishment of Jeresulm and learn from it!



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jonathan fox

posted November 11, 2006 at 6:28 pm


Homosexuality is wrong and unnatural. It is a violent, depraved and twisted lifestyle. The basic sexual practices promote communicable disease, and the gay community incorporates a promiscuousness that devalues commitment. A seriously dangerous undercurrent of violence and sexual child molestation underlies the queer approach to life. The active trolling by homosexual activists among elementary, middle and high schools of children at their most psychologically vulnerable, and the activities of NAMBLA belie the “we’re just as normal as you are” mantra. Remember, it’s the North American Man Boy Love Association, and they’re a welcome part of every Gay Pride parade there is. It’s not intolerance to condemn and refuse to normalize deviance. The real “Shanda” is to dumb down the values and standards of society so that deviance becomes the norm. By accepting the phony science of the arguments of queer activists, you are setting yourselves up for marginalization at the borders of effective society. Every time a queer activist says “I was born this way; it’s my right”, you’replaying into the hands of the racists and the bigots. To accept the false premise that sexual orientation is biological and not a product of choice is the same as saying that an attraction to little boys is biological and therefore should be legalized (once again, the NAMBLA argument), or that Jews have a natural prediliction to money, or that blacks have a natural prediliction towards violence, or that hispanics have a natural prediliction towards laziness. Cleave to the arguments of the homosexual advocate and apologist, and you open the door to the worst racism possible. All in the name of pleasing the bored and spoiled blond children of the middle class and their misfit sexually confused friends.



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Judy

posted November 11, 2006 at 7:25 pm


If you think about it, it isn’t anyones business who you sleep with. It is all a private matter. Just because a person appears one way, such as too much of a sissy or tough like a “dyke”, many times they are realy the kindest, most loving, and concerned people around! Often people even miss clasify people on their looks or actions alone, (such as a guy who likes to make jewerly and is very artistic or a woman truck driver). The same with bi-sexuals, it is not all obout sex. Two people of the same sex might care so much they want to be with them forever, perhaps on a sister-sister relationship. It can be a loving, hugging and comfortble way to be happy. I am in this situation. I have 3 children and people assume I am gay because I live with a women. We will hopfully care enough for each other we will be together forever.. Now child molesters and kiddie Pornographers are outragious and should never see the light of day. Transexuals and transvestites are ok as long as they do not bother others with it. In conclusion, there should not be any homophobics if people don’t get into others business, judge by appearance or lack of knowledge. It is like the KKK. If you live anyway other than a WASP you are wrong. By the was whatever lifestyle causes you happiness is where one should be and this does not decrease Jewish population. (I will not go into this nor will I go into what the Tanack says, but from what I studied is a-ok with G-d, especially for women. For more information, contact PFLAG.



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 11:02 pm


You are so sad, jonathan fox. Are you proud of that ignorance?



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Leigh Anne Petersen

posted November 12, 2006 at 12:02 am


Leigh Anne, you’re a funny one. Nudity as violence??? LOL If it is FORCED upon the people who are not wanting to see it…..yes. Here in America it is called being an Exhibitionist.



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William Blesch

posted November 12, 2006 at 2:22 am


Although I believe that the gays in Israel deserve the same preservation of rights and dignity as any other human being, I believe that their push for a Gay Pride Parade down the streets of Jerusalem to be an incredibly selfish and detrimental one. At a time when Israel is reeling from the recent war in Lebanon and daily rocket attacks by Palestinian terrorists, causing Israeli security forces, Jerusalem Police etc. to have to focus their attention on protecting a Gay Pride Parade instead of allowing Israel’s already strained security personnel to watch out for Islamic terror is the height of selfish and disgusting behaviour on the part of the gay community. Is it right for the conservatives in Israel to threaten the gay community? Of course not. But it is also not very respectful of the gay community to flaunt their sexuality in the faces of those who disagree with them. Do the Ultra-Orthodox or other Datim flaunt their sexuality? I think not. Why can’t gays be gay in the privacy of their own homes. They don’t have to deny that they are gay. But what is the point of thrusting yourself before someone and being like…”Excuse me…did you know I’m gay? Well I am. I am gay. I just want you to know that. See this guy here? He’s my lover. Did you know he’s my lover? Well he is. In fact, I am SO proud of the fact that we are both gay and that we are gay lovers, that we are going to take off almost all of our clothing if not all, and show you how proud I am of my partner’s private parts. You know why? Cause we’re gay. And I want all of Jerusalem and Israel to acknowledge the beauty of my partner’s private parts. And if you don’t like that…well then you are homophobic, rude and totally against human rights.” It’s ridiculous.



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Espiritus85

posted November 12, 2006 at 4:38 am


Leigh Anne. A lot of things are forced, that doesn’t make it violence. I think you just need to concede that that point doesn’t make sense. And frankly, if one continues to watch an exhibitionist, it can hardly be considered “force” anyway.



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Espiritus85

posted November 12, 2006 at 4:48 am


And if you don’t like that…well then you are homophobic, rude and totally against human rights.” Nice strawman, William. Of course, you totally gloss over the fact that if from the very start they were given human rights, and not victims of homophobia or their culture, the chances of there being annul parades(which was probably more modest in its inception) would be incredibly small.



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Danny Kent

posted November 12, 2006 at 7:06 am


I was at this year’s L/G Pride in Jerusalem as I wrote in my previous comment yesterday to Rabbi Stern. There was no nudity whatsoever there. It amazes me how people believe what they want to believe from the Press. Most of the news videos from gay marches came from other cities. This year was the fourth l/g pride march in Jerusalem – the fourth! Again, no nudity – understand?? Please come next year and bring your camera – you won’t see 3/4-naked people or half-naked people. Of the 10,000 people who came to the Celebration, only 3 people (men) were shirtless in 90+ degree temperature – which proves how human and sensitive the participants were (even in a private venue!). Join us next year and destroy your myths, fears and fantasies of what happens at the Jerusalem L/G Celebration. It is a celebration of life with religious & secular Jersualemites and their friends supporting true understanding & respect for one another. Bring your camera and document the event – don’t trust the news media who need to find a story in a sack of potatoes otherwise they won’t get their paychecks (there were definitely over 200 reporters there – I don’t know how you can find 200+ unique stories that will sell newspapers and TV ad slots to the masses!!! The reporters have vivid imaginations, as vivid and colorful as those who never attend and fantasize what these lesbian/gay people and their friends must be doing at such public places….). For over 30 years in the MODERN l/g community, we have joined synagogues and created our own when we were not accepted by ignorant people. Today we contribute to liturgical thought in all three Western religions. If you are not a Samaritan (and there are only 600 in the world today) then you cannot take the Bible only on its literal merits but must interpret this as you do the rest of the Bible.



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reyzl

posted November 12, 2006 at 9:02 am


Danny Kent, Good work. I wish you great success in educating your countrymen (and women).



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Robert Roepke

posted November 12, 2006 at 11:30 am


I always read with great interest what the Jewish community has to say about contentious issues although I am not affiliated with any religion. On the gay parade issue, it is my belief that the Creator made us all what we are(gays do not choose to be gay) and to deny or criminalize their lifestyle is the height of ungodliness.



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William Blesch

posted November 12, 2006 at 1:28 pm


I find it amazing that you could call anything ungodly if you do not associate yourself with any religion Mr. Roepke. Secondly, Judaism says through the Torah that it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as a man lies with a woman. And hey…we all know it’s talking about sex here. I don’t see how G-d could call something an abomination if He himself created gays that way in the first place. No, if the Torah is right, then homosexuality is a sexual choice, a lifestyle, and is not something a person is born with in their genes. You can’t have it both ways. Since I was not there at the Gay Pride Event in Jerusalem this year, perhaps I was a bit harsh in talking about the gays taking off their clothes etc. Perhaps they did indeed show some restraint. However, I think if you take all the gay pride parades from around the rest of the world as an example, particularly in New York and San Francisco in the States, one could understand where the annoyance and slight disgust of the average conservative person might come from, and why the conservative religious folks would not want that same hedonistic revelry from taking place in Jerusalem.



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Robert Roepke

posted November 12, 2006 at 1:42 pm


Well, Mr. Blesch, it is apparent to me that the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and other religiuos tracts are just man-made myths!



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David

posted November 12, 2006 at 6:07 pm


This is a victory of demographics over empty statements. This is a victory of people who have lots of children over people who have, well no so many. This is a victory of people who can add.



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Liz

posted November 12, 2006 at 8:35 pm


I m confused. How is it that straight people can define the gay community by what we do in our bedrooms and then hold that same definition against the gay community? We in the gay community do not define ourselves by whom we have had sex with. It is my friends, those in the straight community that have accomplished that standard. And frankly I m getting really tired of it. I may be a lesbian, but I am also a daughter, a sister, an aunt, a friend, a coworker and let s not forget .a human being. I certainly don t waste my time or energy pondering over the sexual intricacies of straight people. I know this may surprise some of you out there, but I don’t need to know what you do in your daily lives. As long as it doesn’t infringe upon my life, I don’t care what you do. REALLY! If you don t want to watch gay people celebrating in the streets of Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter, then don t go to the parade. On the same note, if you don t approve in same sex marriages, then don t have one. Oh but wiat, then comes the BIBLE argument. Well, unless I ve missed something in Sunday school, we will all have our chance to be judged by our own Gods. So then why are so many of us wasting time, energy and hatred on trying to do a job that only God can do? Take care of your own house and get out of my backyard.



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William Blesch

posted November 12, 2006 at 8:48 pm


I don’t think it has anything to do with hatred Liz, but a simple matter of whether the gay community, yourself included it seems, chooses to believe what the Bible already says G-d’s opinion on the matter is. And as for the Judgement, in the Bible at least, there really is only one G-d whos opinion you should worry about. Be well.



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Espiritus85

posted November 13, 2006 at 2:40 am


How is it that straight people can define the gay community by what we do in our bedrooms and then hold that same definition against the gay community? Liz, strawmen, red-herrings, and false characterizations is all they can produce at attacks – some that is, not all straight people. Interestingly, you as a lesbian (I’m assuming from the handle and your post) should not even be part of the ‘biblical argument’. But conspicuously, due to determined exegetes, you have, in many circles. It’s little things like that which compel me to believe that religion is nothing more than a game of politics, except here the players are making supernatural claims. So, with that, I feel (being non-religious myself) for those who are caught between clearly see the political games I described above, not wanting to abandon their heritage, but constantly being bombarded by zealots who will argue with a signboard about what is “TRUE” and what hasn’t changed, but seemingly only to have history prove them wrong time and again.



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dodi55

posted November 13, 2006 at 5:44 am


There should not have been demonstrations of violence, but this has nothing to do w/ hate, at least not in my book. It has everything to do w/ holiness. You know, like driving on the correct side of the road. That’s all.



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Liz

posted November 13, 2006 at 3:19 pm


William, You’re right. For myself, there is only one God I must “worry” about. I was merely trying to include all religions with my statement above. And the main point of my log was simply this: Somewhere in the bible it says that we do not have the power to Judge others…again, we must leave that to the higher power, being, god, ect….So the bible says it’s against God’s law to be gay…well the bible also says you shouldn’t judge….this is the hypocrisy that frustrates me so.. Be Well….too. Liz



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Rona Hatter

posted November 13, 2006 at 5:34 pm


When God made man He said for him to reproduce and to subdue the earth. He has laws and reasoning behind His Will, it is not about our own need to satisfy our sexual desires. What about Sodom? Has man been so self consumed that we have forgot about Gods wrath? Jerusalem is Gods land and to let ones who openly defy Him is hate within itself.



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S

posted November 14, 2006 at 8:06 pm


I think there is an issue of violence vs. non violence, and here violence won. The intriguing thing is that the gay community is perhaps the most non violent community on Earth, they can have 250,000 or up to a million people in a march and not have a single violent incident (except maybe from homophobes). This is quite remarkable living in our society. And the gay community has never been an agressor against Jews, yet so much anger towards gays from a small group of bigoted Jews boggles my mind. This makes me agree with recent remarks from Elton John: shame on traditional, conservative religions! When will religions come together instead of hate each other, show good will toward each other instead of contempt, and unite for a purpose other than hate? They’re all setting a bad example.



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Kirsten the genderqueer Jew

posted November 14, 2006 at 10:01 pm


ALL people are created b’tzelem eolhim, “in the image of G-d.” For anyone, and it does not matter who says it, to think that G-d is limited to the heterosexual “lifestyle” is idolatric. There are no lifestyles. There are ways people live their life most of the time: that is their life, not lifestyle. Oh, it just occured to me that there are as many promiscous, liscencious acts that heterosexuals do as my community “does.” You are forgetting that there IS a difference between identity and behavior. Identities in and of themselves CAN’T be sinful, only what people do with them. That is where it breaks G-d’s law. Amen. (What is THE most important Law of all? And yes, there is ONE that matters above all others. G-d loves us more than these: and NO ONE can take that away. Amen!)



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Wanda

posted November 21, 2006 at 2:13 pm


BTW, the sages say that Sodom & Gomorrah were the affluent of their time, whose self-righteous indignation and unbridled hatred for the poor is what got them smoked. Lot was welcomed and given a position within the city, never abused… why? Because he was the rich nephew of a very wealthy man. Their method of abuse toward anyone not able or willing to demonstrate substantial affluence earned Sodom & Gomorrah the reputation they were looking for: if you’re poor, don’t come here. If anything, judgment fell upon them due to the disrespect and violence they perpetrated against all people they considered less worthy than themselves. But, hey–in another parashah, Korach’s dissatisfied band was swallowed for gossip. (Torah tells us gossip is akin to murder.) A man s way determines that desperate times call for desperate measures, but Adonai seems to always keep it simple: An eye for an eye judge and you ll be judged in the same manner violence earns violence. If we do what is expected of us: to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with Him–Micah VI,8 8)–who knows what COULD happen? Maybe the ground would open up and the whole bunch would be taken, rock throwers and all.



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Fear and Homophobia in Jerusalem

Apparently, the planned gay-pride parade through Jerusalem has been cancelled as a result of threats of violence. I agree with Rabbi Grossman that this is a shame: Capitulating to threats only emboldens those who seek to use intimidation as a tool.

Worse still, reports about the cancellation quote Jewish, Christian, and Muslim leaders denouncing the march. With all the vital issues that need moral leadership in the world–from fighting poverty to working to end bloodshed–the one issue that serves to unite everyone is hate.

It is the victory of fear over hope.



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Esther Sternberg

posted November 10, 2006 at 5:12 pm


Rabbi Waxman, I am so saddened by the fact that the Gay Group backed off, and especially because of a fanatic group that does not give the right of life and liberty to anyone that does not agree with their way of life and their liberty. It turns my stomach just to know that they are part of my people. My G-d is a loving God. A G-d that created man in his immage. That means that the Gay man or woman was also created in G-d’s immage. G-d did not make Hitler kill six million Jews. Man allowed Hitler to kill six million Jews.



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Leigh Anne

posted November 10, 2006 at 5:49 pm


The homosexual community was angry over the demonstration of violence. The community that was violent showed its bad side. But what I saw in the middle east gay pride parade that was telecast did no better. It threw sexually rabid half-naked protests in the face of the conservative community. (To me this was violence as well, just of another type, but based on anger and frustration all the same) Israel is called out of the world to be a nation of priests. What does this mean? How should a priest act toward other priests or those they are called to minister to? What are the qualities of a priest that make them a great minister? How can Israel learn to show these traits to the world? Being a priest to the world is pretty hard when you are stuck in a ghetto (by choice or not)



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Joanne

posted November 10, 2006 at 8:56 pm


I fully agree with Rabbi Waxman’s comments. We should not hate anyone or try to intimidate them. Jo, Sydney Australia



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 2:14 am


Leigh Anne, you’re a funny one. Nudity as violence??? LOL And I’m very intrigued as to why some Christians are adding their negativity – especially when some of the same Orthodox people view their entire religion as sinful idolatry – although chances are in thier case, they would be spared protests of this magnitude if they were expressing faith in Jerusalem as opposed to a group of glbt people having a sensuous parade (aka. homosexuality itself, if you let some people tell it)



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Tom

posted November 11, 2006 at 1:09 pm


I thought homosexuality was against Jewish Relirious Law; Leviticus 18, verse 22? So why should Jews even think that it is OK for Gay Rights? I am glad it was banned!



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Tom

posted November 11, 2006 at 1:14 pm


Rabbii Waxman is half right. God loves the individual, but hates the sin. I am opposed to anyone who breaks God’s Laws. Man made laws do not superceed God’s Laws! Call them homosexuals, gays or queers, they are refusing to obey God and his laws. Oh Jeruslum, I weep for you and your history of disobey and turning your back on God and his Laws. Remember your history of when you turned your back on god, and his punishment of Jeresulm and learn from it!



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jonathan fox

posted November 11, 2006 at 6:28 pm


Homosexuality is wrong and unnatural. It is a violent, depraved and twisted lifestyle. The basic sexual practices promote communicable disease, and the gay community incorporates a promiscuousness that devalues commitment. A seriously dangerous undercurrent of violence and sexual child molestation underlies the queer approach to life. The active trolling by homosexual activists among elementary, middle and high schools of children at their most psychologically vulnerable, and the activities of NAMBLA belie the “we’re just as normal as you are” mantra. Remember, it’s the North American Man Boy Love Association, and they’re a welcome part of every Gay Pride parade there is. It’s not intolerance to condemn and refuse to normalize deviance. The real “Shanda” is to dumb down the values and standards of society so that deviance becomes the norm. By accepting the phony science of the arguments of queer activists, you are setting yourselves up for marginalization at the borders of effective society. Every time a queer activist says “I was born this way; it’s my right”, you’replaying into the hands of the racists and the bigots. To accept the false premise that sexual orientation is biological and not a product of choice is the same as saying that an attraction to little boys is biological and therefore should be legalized (once again, the NAMBLA argument), or that Jews have a natural prediliction to money, or that blacks have a natural prediliction towards violence, or that hispanics have a natural prediliction towards laziness. Cleave to the arguments of the homosexual advocate and apologist, and you open the door to the worst racism possible. All in the name of pleasing the bored and spoiled blond children of the middle class and their misfit sexually confused friends.



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Judy

posted November 11, 2006 at 7:25 pm


If you think about it, it isn’t anyones business who you sleep with. It is all a private matter. Just because a person appears one way, such as too much of a sissy or tough like a “dyke”, many times they are realy the kindest, most loving, and concerned people around! Often people even miss clasify people on their looks or actions alone, (such as a guy who likes to make jewerly and is very artistic or a woman truck driver). The same with bi-sexuals, it is not all obout sex. Two people of the same sex might care so much they want to be with them forever, perhaps on a sister-sister relationship. It can be a loving, hugging and comfortble way to be happy. I am in this situation. I have 3 children and people assume I am gay because I live with a women. We will hopfully care enough for each other we will be together forever.. Now child molesters and kiddie Pornographers are outragious and should never see the light of day. Transexuals and transvestites are ok as long as they do not bother others with it. In conclusion, there should not be any homophobics if people don’t get into others business, judge by appearance or lack of knowledge. It is like the KKK. If you live anyway other than a WASP you are wrong. By the was whatever lifestyle causes you happiness is where one should be and this does not decrease Jewish population. (I will not go into this nor will I go into what the Tanack says, but from what I studied is a-ok with G-d, especially for women. For more information, contact PFLAG.



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Espiritus85

posted November 11, 2006 at 11:02 pm


You are so sad, jonathan fox. Are you proud of that ignorance?



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Espiritus85

posted November 12, 2006 at 4:38 am


Leigh Anne. A lot of things are forced, that doesn’t make it violence. I think you just need to concede that that point doesn’t make sense. And frankly, if one continues to watch an exhibitionist, it can hardly be considered “force” anyway.



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Espiritus85

posted November 12, 2006 at 4:48 am


And if you don’t like that…well then you are homophobic, rude and totally against human rights.” Nice strawman, William. Of course, you totally gloss over the fact that if from the very start they were given human rights, and not victims of homophobia or their culture, the chances of there being annul parades(which was probably more modest in its inception) would be incredibly small.



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Danny Kent

posted November 12, 2006 at 7:06 am


I was at this year’s L/G Pride in Jerusalem as I wrote in my previous comment yesterday to Rabbi Stern. There was no nudity whatsoever there. It amazes me how people believe what they want to believe from the Press. Most of the news videos from gay marches came from other cities. This year was the fourth l/g pride march in Jerusalem – the fourth! Again, no nudity – understand?? Please come next year and bring your camera – you won’t see 3/4-naked people or half-naked people. Of the 10,000 people who came to the Celebration, only 3 people (men) were shirtless in 90+ degree temperature – which proves how human and sensitive the participants were (even in a private venue!). Join us next year and destroy your myths, fears and fantasies of what happens at the Jerusalem L/G Celebration. It is a celebration of life with religious & secular Jersualemites and their friends supporting true understanding & respect for one another. Bring your camera and document the event – don’t trust the news media who need to find a story in a sack of potatoes otherwise they won’t get their paychecks (there were definitely over 200 reporters there – I don’t know how you can find 200+ unique stories that will sell newspapers and TV ad slots to the masses!!! The reporters have vivid imaginations, as vivid and colorful as those who never attend and fantasize what these lesbian/gay people and their friends must be doing at such public places….). For over 30 years in the MODERN l/g community, we have joined synagogues and created our own when we were not accepted by ignorant people. Today we contribute to liturgical thought in all three Western religions. If you are not a Samaritan (and there are only 600 in the world today) then you cannot take the Bible only on its literal merits but must interpret this as you do the rest of the Bible.



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reyzl

posted November 12, 2006 at 9:02 am


Danny Kent, Good work. I wish you great success in educating your countrymen (and women).



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Robert Roepke

posted November 12, 2006 at 11:30 am


I always read with great interest what the Jewish community has to say about contentious issues although I am not affiliated with any religion. On the gay parade issue, it is my belief that the Creator made us all what we are(gays do not choose to be gay) and to deny or criminalize their lifestyle is the height of ungodliness.



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William Blesch

posted November 12, 2006 at 1:28 pm


I find it amazing that you could call anything ungodly if you do not associate yourself with any religion Mr. Roepke. Secondly, Judaism says through the Torah that it is an abomination for a man to lie with a man as a man lies with a woman. And hey…we all know it’s talking about sex here. I don’t see how G-d could call something an abomination if He himself created gays that way in the first place. No, if the Torah is right, then homosexuality is a sexual choice, a lifestyle, and is not something a person is born with in their genes. You can’t have it both ways. Since I was not there at the Gay Pride Event in Jerusalem this year, perhaps I was a bit harsh in talking about the gays taking off their clothes etc. Perhaps they did indeed show some restraint. However, I think if you take all the gay pride parades from around the rest of the world as an example, particularly in New York and San Francisco in the States, one could understand where the annoyance and slight disgust of the average conservative person might come from, and why the conservative religious folks would not want that same hedonistic revelry from taking place in Jerusalem.



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Robert Roepke

posted November 12, 2006 at 1:42 pm


Well, Mr. Blesch, it is apparent to me that the Torah, the Bible, the Quran and other religiuos tracts are just man-made myths!



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Liz

posted November 12, 2006 at 8:35 pm


I m confused. How is it that straight people can define the gay community by what we do in our bedrooms and then hold that same definition against the gay community? We in the gay community do not define ourselves by whom we have had sex with. It is my friends, those in the straight community that have accomplished that standard. And frankly I m getting really tired of it. I may be a lesbian, but I am also a daughter, a sister, an aunt, a friend, a coworker and let s not forget .a human being. I certainly don t waste my time or energy pondering over the sexual intricacies of straight people. I know this may surprise some of you out there, but I don’t need to know what you do in your daily lives. As long as it doesn’t infringe upon my life, I don’t care what you do. REALLY! If you don t want to watch gay people celebrating in the streets of Jerusalem or anywhere else for that matter, then don t go to the parade. On the same note, if you don t approve in same sex marriages, then don t have one. Oh but wiat, then comes the BIBLE argument. Well, unless I ve missed something in Sunday school, we will all have our chance to be judged by our own Gods. So then why are so many of us wasting time, energy and hatred on trying to do a job that only God can do? Take care of your own house and get out of my backyard.



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William Blesch

posted November 12, 2006 at 8:48 pm


I don’t think it has anything to do with hatred Liz, but a simple matter of whether the gay community, yourself included it seems, chooses to believe what the Bible already says G-d’s opinion on the matter is. And as for the Judgement, in the Bible at least, there really is only one G-d whos opinion you should worry about. Be well.



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Espiritus85

posted November 13, 2006 at 2:40 am


How is it that straight people can define the gay community by what we do in our bedrooms and then hold that same definition against the gay community? Liz, strawmen, red-herrings, and false characterizations is all they can produce at attacks – some that is, not all straight people. Interestingly, you as a lesbian (I’m assuming from the handle and your post) should not even be part of the ‘biblical argument’. But conspicuously, due to determined exegetes, you have, in many circles. It’s little things like that which compel me to believe that religion is nothing more than a game of politics, except here the players are making supernatural claims. So, with that, I feel (being non-religious myself) for those who are caught between clearly see the political games I described above, not wanting to abandon their heritage, but constantly being bombarded by zealots who will argue with a signboard about what is “TRUE” and what hasn’t changed, but seemingly only to have history prove them wrong time and again.



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dodi55

posted November 13, 2006 at 5:44 am


There should not have been demonstrations of violence, but this has nothing to do w/ hate, at least not in my book. It has everything to do w/ holiness. You know, like driving on the correct side of the road. That’s all.



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Liz

posted November 13, 2006 at 3:19 pm


William, You’re right. For myself, there is only one God I must “worry” about. I was merely trying to include all religions with my statement above. And the main point of my log was simply this: Somewhere in the bible it says that we do not have the power to Judge others…again, we must leave that to the higher power, being, god, ect….So the bible says it’s against God’s law to be gay…well the bible also says you shouldn’t judge….this is the hypocrisy that frustrates me so.. Be Well….too. Liz



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S

posted November 14, 2006 at 8:06 pm


I think there is an issue of violence vs. non violence, and here violence won. The intriguing thing is that the gay community is perhaps the most non violent community on Earth, they can have 250,000 or up to a million people in a march and not have a single violent incident (except maybe from homophobes). This is quite remarkable living in our society. And the gay community has never been an agressor against Jews, yet so much anger towards gays from a small group of bigoted Jews boggles my mind. This makes me agree with recent remarks from Elton John: shame on traditional, conservative religions! When will religions come together instead of hate each other, show good will toward each other instead of contempt, and unite for a purpose other than hate? They’re all setting a bad example.



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Kirsten the genderqueer Jew

posted November 14, 2006 at 10:01 pm


ALL people are created b’tzelem eolhim, “in the image of G-d.” For anyone, and it does not matter who says it, to think that G-d is limited to the heterosexual “lifestyle” is idolatric. There are no lifestyles. There are ways people live their life most of the time: that is their life, not lifestyle. Oh, it just occured to me that there are as many promiscous, liscencious acts that heterosexuals do as my community “does.” You are forgetting that there IS a difference between identity and behavior. Identities in and of themselves CAN’T be sinful, only what people do with them. That is where it breaks G-d’s law. Amen. (What is THE most important Law of all? And yes, there is ONE that matters above all others. G-d loves us more than these: and NO ONE can take that away. Amen!)



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Wanda

posted November 21, 2006 at 2:13 pm


BTW, the sages say that Sodom & Gomorrah were the affluent of their time, whose self-righteous indignation and unbridled hatred for the poor is what got them smoked. Lot was welcomed and given a position within the city, never abused… why? Because he was the rich nephew of a very wealthy man. Their method of abuse toward anyone not able or willing to demonstrate substantial affluence earned Sodom & Gomorrah the reputation they were looking for: if you’re poor, don’t come here. If anything, judgment fell upon them due to the disrespect and violence they perpetrated against all people they considered less worthy than themselves. But, hey–in another parashah, Korach’s dissatisfied band was swallowed for gossip. (Torah tells us gossip is akin to murder.) A man s way determines that desperate times call for desperate measures, but Adonai seems to always keep it simple: An eye for an eye judge and you ll be judged in the same manner violence earns violence. If we do what is expected of us: to do justice, to love kindness and to walk humbly with Him–Micah VI,8 8)–who knows what COULD happen? Maybe the ground would open up and the whole bunch would be taken, rock throwers and all.



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