Virtual Talmud

Virtual Talmud


C’mon, Get Real

Idolatry as “Bad habits,” “addictions,” “kissing Torah scrolls”: Weren’t these the kind of things pulpit rabbis spoke about in the 1950s on Shabbat when they couldn’t think of anything else to talk about?

Both Rabbi Waxman and Rabbi Grossman fail to address the searing social and religious issues regarding idolatry and Torah today.

As I have written elsewhere, the issue of idolatry is at the center of what some have called the clash of civilizations. If we look back and remember the first time most of us heard about the Taliban, it was not on Sept. 12, 2001, but a few months before that, in March 2001, when they decided to blow up ancient statues of the Buddha, claiming that the images where idolatrous.

Truth be told, the greatest idolatry being perpetrated today is by those who have substituted finite religious text for an infinite God. The extreme elements within Islam and Christianity (and some religious Zionists in Israel) are currently unable to distinguish between God and God’s written word.

God’s fixed word has in some sense taken the place of God’s infinite being. Idolatry is when one confuses a partial truth for a whole truth, or when one makes a relative into an absolute. As the 18th-century thinker Moses Mendelssohn argued in his book, “Jerusalem,” God gave Judaism an oral law in order to act as bulwark against the idolatry of text. What these groups fail to realize is the ultimate infinity of God’s being. The struggle each of us engages in every day is keeping that infinity present.

These radical elements of religion, especially in Islam, wish to engender an absolute rule over all of humanity, forcing all to obey their reading of sacred text. This tyranny has now moved beyond politics and is infecting culture.

Whether it’s Muslim cab drivers in Minnesota who refuse to take passengers carrying liquor, or Muslims in Europe threatening to disrupt a Mozart opera that contains “heretical” ideas, a new wave of cultural absolutism has been unleashed on humanity.

What is most ironic is that it is those who are screaming against idolatry are its greatest practitioners. What is child sacrifice if not a suicide bomber?

In Judaism, the term for idolatry is avodah zarah, which literally means a strange worship of God. It does not mean a denial of God, but rather serving God in an abnormal way. In other words, although one’s intention may have a grain of truth, the mode of practice is all wrong and confused.

What all idolaters have in common is that they are religiously intoxicated human beings. They want to become closer to God; unfortunately what they forget is that they, like all of us, will never truly know God.



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Wanda Lauzon

posted October 13, 2006 at 5:59 am


“They want to become closer to God; unfortunately what they forget is that they, like all of us, will never truly know God.” Very well said. I think we also forget our place. We want to become so close that we shove God over and assume His role. It is so easy to unconsciously cast judgment upon others and so exhilarating to deliberately do it, but either way, it s just an attempt to play God. His statutes are more than good advice and rules to live by. They are the incontrovertible laws of the universe, like gravity. It s just that some, like gravity show immediate results and others take much longer. When we judge others, we will be judged with the same deference. Like Haman, man will be hung on the same gallows he built for others.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 13, 2006 at 2:26 pm


Truth be told, the greatest idolatry being perpetrated today is by those who have substituted finite religious text for an infinite God. On this issue, I think this is one of the best statements I have ever read!



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 14, 2006 at 4:12 am


“What all idolaters have in common is that they are religiously intoxicated human beings. They want to become closer to God; unfortunately what they forget is that they, like all of us, will never truly know God.” Why is this man a rabbi? He has nothing to teach if he says one can never truly know God. Why pose as a teacher of religion then? Is this a common sentiment in rabbinical Judaism, that Jews are unable to know their G-d?



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Greling

posted October 14, 2006 at 6:28 am


Stephen, Don’t don’t confuse conceptual knowledge of the divine with perceptual knowledge with the senses. It is indeed both possible to “know” God and never know God at all. We “know” God through out finite and limited perceptions and an intuitive understanding, but it is the wise soul who knows that our perceptions are just that and that God extends beyond human conception. God communicates to us through divine intuitive insight. Our perceptual knowledge only extends to us a limited picture that evidences God. But, God is so great that our minds cannot grasp God. That is perhaps what this author means when it is said that we “will never truly know God”. How can you bottle up something so great, eternal and infinite into the tiny frame of your mortal mind?



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 14, 2006 at 1:25 pm


“Don’t don’t confuse conceptual knowledge of the divine with perceptual knowledge with the senses. It is indeed both possible to “know” God and never know God at all.” This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. No one will ever “know” the end of knowledge of anything. We understand knowledge to be conditional. What is not conditional is the awareness of God or none awareness. One either has it or not and one “knows” when you do have it as it’s absense is palatable. This is why I question rabbis who deny that God can be known. When I “know” God, I feel it in my senses, it strikes me with spiritual energy that is papable. It’s like a Sun that bursts upon you and there is no way that one can deny this Presense of God. So I ask again in this way, do rabbis know what I’m talking about? Do they know what communion with the Creator is like? I’m not seeing this in these answers that are intellectually driven instead of emotionally where there is not the slightest doubt one has conversed without words, with words, with acts inspired and guided by the Great Mysterious One.



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Greling

posted October 14, 2006 at 4:12 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. No one will ever “know” the end of knowledge of anything. We understand knowledge to be conditional. What is not conditional is the awareness of God or none awareness. One either has it or not and one “knows” when you do have it as it’s absense is palatable. To understand infinity as something conceptually unattainable but which we are perceptually and intuitively aware is to have but a brief glimpse into the nature of God.



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Greling

posted October 14, 2006 at 4:12 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. No one will ever “know” the end of knowledge of anything. We understand knowledge to be conditional. What is not conditional is the awareness of God or none awareness. One either has it or not and one “knows” when you do have it as it’s absense is palatable. To understand infinity as something conceptually unattainable but which we are perceptually and intuitively aware is to have but a brief glimpse into the nature of God.



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Greling

posted October 14, 2006 at 4:12 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. No one will ever “know” the end of knowledge of anything. We understand knowledge to be conditional. What is not conditional is the awareness of God or none awareness. One either has it or not and one “knows” when you do have it as it’s absense is palatable. To understand infinity as something conceptually unattainable but which we are perceptually and intuitively aware is to have but a brief glimpse into the nature of God.



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Greling

posted October 14, 2006 at 4:12 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. No one will ever “know” the end of knowledge of anything. We understand knowledge to be conditional. What is not conditional is the awareness of God or none awareness. One either has it or not and one “knows” when you do have it as it’s absense is palatable. To understand infinity as something conceptually unattainable but which we are perceptually and intuitively aware is to have but a brief glimpse into the nature of God.



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Tzvi

posted October 15, 2006 at 4:43 pm


Stephen, In jewish Mystical tradidion, one of the many names the Holy one is “Ein Sof” which translates into “The Endless One”. For jews, G-d its enough to know that G-d is, but we can never “know” G-d, if at the minimum because as said before, you can’t “know” infinity. Its like Grabbing a sunbeam. Actually I liken it to working in particle Physics.. When working with Quarks, you can Observe its Velocity but not its Size or its Size but not its Velocity. And Stephen, if that’s not enough, it was none other than Maimonades who declared that anyone who took litteraly such expressions as:”The Finger of G-d” should be executed as a heretic.



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Scott

posted October 15, 2006 at 5:48 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. This is why I question rabbis who deny that God can be known. So I ask again in this way, do rabbis know what I’m talking about? Do you know what you’re talking about. When the rabbi says we cannot know G-D, he means the god that comes down from the sky like JC, the god-man that comes to save the day. Thinking you can know G-D completely IS idolatry – of the self. G-D can never be fully comprehended in this life. We are mortal beings in physical bodies trying to comprehend the ultimate spiritual. And we can’t. Not yet, anyway. But we can know G-D through Torah. He gives us his holy laws and ways of living so that we can we in His path and be righteous in His ways. That is how we come close to knowing him.



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Scott

posted October 15, 2006 at 5:48 pm


This is nonsense. One either knows God like one knows about other things or one doesn’t. This is why I question rabbis who deny that God can be known. So I ask again in this way, do rabbis know what I’m talking about? Do you know what you’re talking about. When the rabbi says we cannot know G-D, he means the god that comes down from the sky like JC, the god-man that comes to save the day. Thinking you can know G-D completely IS idolatry – of the self. G-D can never be fully comprehended in this life. We are mortal beings in physical bodies trying to comprehend the ultimate spiritual. And we can’t. Not yet, anyway. But we can know G-D through Torah. He gives us his holy laws and ways of living so that we can we in His path and be righteous in His ways. That is how we come close to knowing him.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 15, 2006 at 8:14 pm


I’m not talking about knowing God completely, that is impossible. I’m talking about communication between God and human being, that is possible, and it isn’t about reading words in books written by ancient men. When one let’s ancients determine their relationship with God, one gives over one’s spirituality to another’s hands which makes one’s own relationship with God that much less authentic–it is anothers and anothers and anothers. Martin Buber put it this way in his “I & Thou” book: “One must, however, take care not to understand this conversation with God-the conversation of which I have to speak in this book and in almost all of the works which followed- as something happening solely alongside or above the everyday. God’s speech to men penetrates what happens in the life of each one of us, and all that happens in the world around us, biographical and historical, and makes it for you and me into instruction, message, demand. Happening upon happening, situation upon situation, are enabled and empowered by the personal speech of God to demand of the human person that he take his stand and make his decision. Often enough we think there is nothing to hear, but long before we have ourselves put wax in our ears. The existence of mutuality between God and man cannot be proved, just as God’ existence cannot be proved. Yet he who dares to speak of it, bears witness, and calls to witness him to whom he speaks- whether that witness is now or in the future.” Martin Buber Jerusalem, October, 1957



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 15, 2006 at 8:14 pm


I’m not talking about knowing God completely, that is impossible. I’m talking about communication between God and human being, that is possible, and it isn’t about reading words in books written by ancient men. When one let’s ancients determine their relationship with God, one gives over one’s spirituality to another’s hands which makes one’s own relationship with God that much less authentic–it is anothers and anothers and anothers. Martin Buber put it this way in his “I & Thou” book: “One must, however, take care not to understand this conversation with God-the conversation of which I have to speak in this book and in almost all of the works which followed- as something happening solely alongside or above the everyday. God’s speech to men penetrates what happens in the life of each one of us, and all that happens in the world around us, biographical and historical, and makes it for you and me into instruction, message, demand. Happening upon happening, situation upon situation, are enabled and empowered by the personal speech of God to demand of the human person that he take his stand and make his decision. Often enough we think there is nothing to hear, but long before we have ourselves put wax in our ears. The existence of mutuality between God and man cannot be proved, just as God’ existence cannot be proved. Yet he who dares to speak of it, bears witness, and calls to witness him to whom he speaks- whether that witness is now or in the future.” Martin Buber Jerusalem, October, 1957



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jethro

posted October 15, 2006 at 8:47 pm


Stephen You take Buber out of context. He was well versed in Hasidic lore and translated the Torah into German so that his coreligionists could read the world of God. Clearly, had he felt that the words of the ancients were an impediment to achieving communion with God he wouldn’t have pursued that. Most religious traditions need an ancient textual springboard to catapult humans towards the divine. For Jews: Torah. For Christians: Gospels. For Muslims: The Koran. Buddhists and Hindus have their ancient texts as well. Torah is how God speaks to us. Prayer is how we speak with God. They are equally important but ultimately seperate endeavors.



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jethro

posted October 15, 2006 at 8:47 pm


Stephen You take Buber out of context. He was well versed in Hasidic lore and translated the Torah into German so that his coreligionists could read the world of God. Clearly, had he felt that the words of the ancients were an impediment to achieving communion with God he wouldn’t have pursued that. Most religious traditions need an ancient textual springboard to catapult humans towards the divine. For Jews: Torah. For Christians: Gospels. For Muslims: The Koran. Buddhists and Hindus have their ancient texts as well. Torah is how God speaks to us. Prayer is how we speak with God. They are equally important but ultimately seperate endeavors.



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Ruby

posted October 15, 2006 at 10:24 pm


One will never really get to know God til he has been perfected into God’s likeness. That only comes with having a longing to want to know him and by spending time in his word, prayer life, and following after his ways thru close encountering of God in all his glory on a daily relationship with him. One has to have the simplicity of a humble spirit as a child to draw close to God and to follow his commandments. The great one love one another as I have loved you.



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Ruby

posted October 15, 2006 at 10:24 pm


One will never really get to know God til he has been perfected into God’s likeness. That only comes with having a longing to want to know him and by spending time in his word, prayer life, and following after his ways thru close encountering of God in all his glory on a daily relationship with him. One has to have the simplicity of a humble spirit as a child to draw close to God and to follow his commandments. The great one love one another as I have loved you.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 12:22 am


“Torah is how God speaks to us. Prayer is how we speak with God.” Reading a book to communicate with God? Is that what Abraham did? Is that what Moses did? I don’t think so. If I read Homer’s Iliad is Zeus speaking with me? I think you’ve missed the point of what Buber was saying which wasn’t taken out of context btw, but from the introduction to his I & Thou book. Relying on ancient men’s words about their experiences with God does very little to establish one’s own authentic communion with God which must happen in the everyday now and not in reliance on someone else’s past.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 12:22 am


“Torah is how God speaks to us. Prayer is how we speak with God.” Reading a book to communicate with God? Is that what Abraham did? Is that what Moses did? I don’t think so. If I read Homer’s Iliad is Zeus speaking with me? I think you’ve missed the point of what Buber was saying which wasn’t taken out of context btw, but from the introduction to his I & Thou book. Relying on ancient men’s words about their experiences with God does very little to establish one’s own authentic communion with God which must happen in the everyday now and not in reliance on someone else’s past.



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Scott

posted October 16, 2006 at 4:42 am


In case you hadn’t noticed, Torah teaches us a way of life and how to establish a relationship with G-D. I also don’t think we’re real interested in being lectured on our religion by Xtians, especially gnostic ones.



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Scott

posted October 16, 2006 at 4:42 am


In case you hadn’t noticed, Torah teaches us a way of life and how to establish a relationship with G-D. I also don’t think we’re real interested in being lectured on our religion by Xtians, especially gnostic ones.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:23 pm


It’s also so much more than “reading a book”, as you so dismissively phrase it. Midrash says that Jacob studied Torah, a feat which would seem difficult since it was not given to us as a people until Moses at Mount Sinai, but that is what our traditiion says. So, it’s not simply reading a book, but learning G-d’s ways and what He wants from us. Also, we are commanded to study Torah and discuss it and learn it over and over again in a relatively pre-determined cycle, because even though the words do not change, we have changed as people since the last time we read those words and therefore might have new insights and learning. AND, yesterday being Simchat Torah, we not only finished Deutoronomy but also re-started Genesis, as a symbol that there is no end to study and learning at a defined point, but that we must also re-commence our learning.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:23 pm


It’s also so much more than “reading a book”, as you so dismissively phrase it. Midrash says that Jacob studied Torah, a feat which would seem difficult since it was not given to us as a people until Moses at Mount Sinai, but that is what our traditiion says. So, it’s not simply reading a book, but learning G-d’s ways and what He wants from us. Also, we are commanded to study Torah and discuss it and learn it over and over again in a relatively pre-determined cycle, because even though the words do not change, we have changed as people since the last time we read those words and therefore might have new insights and learning. AND, yesterday being Simchat Torah, we not only finished Deutoronomy but also re-started Genesis, as a symbol that there is no end to study and learning at a defined point, but that we must also re-commence our learning.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:35 pm


Perhaps I misunderstand but I don’t think I do. What I am getting is word of God idolatry which is just what my point is–you can’t have an authentic relationship with God if you are focused on ancient relationships of ancient men written in books. You’re not even looking for such communication because you’ve accepted the false teaching that revelation is for ancients and God doesn’t talk anymore. Stopped talking since Malachai isn’t it? Add to putting all one’s spirituality into the hands of others is the fact that one also is placing one’s intelligence in those hands as well since the books are not factual but myths taken as facts.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:35 pm


Perhaps I misunderstand but I don’t think I do. What I am getting is word of God idolatry which is just what my point is–you can’t have an authentic relationship with God if you are focused on ancient relationships of ancient men written in books. You’re not even looking for such communication because you’ve accepted the false teaching that revelation is for ancients and God doesn’t talk anymore. Stopped talking since Malachai isn’t it? Add to putting all one’s spirituality into the hands of others is the fact that one also is placing one’s intelligence in those hands as well since the books are not factual but myths taken as facts.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:38 pm


The problem is not confined to Judaism of course as all the Abrahamic faiths do this. But isn’t it time we square our religious beliefs with reality by which I mean real history? I do believe it is these religious myths that keep Abrahamic religionists at spiritual and physical war with each other and the non-Abrahamic world.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:38 pm


The problem is not confined to Judaism of course as all the Abrahamic faiths do this. But isn’t it time we square our religious beliefs with reality by which I mean real history? I do believe it is these religious myths that keep Abrahamic religionists at spiritual and physical war with each other and the non-Abrahamic world.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 16, 2006 at 2:41 pm


Okay, Stephen, enough is enough. Just what the hell do you think you’re talking about? Reading “ancient texts” without making them current is the “strength” of your religion, not of ours. We believe our texts, given to us by G-d, are always for interpretation and discussion to be made relevant to today. Putting our spirituality in the “hands of others” is so far off the mark as to hardly be even worthy of retort, but since you poison our boards with your twisted trash, someone must respond. Don’t you have anything better to do?



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jethro

posted October 16, 2006 at 5:53 pm


Stephen While I am not arguing that historical knowledge is not important, I would argue that there is much more to ‘reality’ than history, and looking to history cannot provide answers to religious questions. The Jews invented history; the Torah is the story of God’s actions in history as viewed by the Torah’s authors and redactors. Reality also involves quantum physics, art, aethestics, neuroanatomy and sex. Religious myth provide an umbrella that can ( for many) subsume all these things beneath it. While, at my better religous moments, I can sense God’s presence, he has not spoken directly to me–outside of the Torah, life cycle, traditions that Judaism contains. I do not put my spirituality in anyone else’s hands. It is up to me whether to accept the yoke of the Torah or to reject it. But these words of Torah are eternal ( for committed Jews) in a way that Homer and Sophocles are not.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 7:40 pm


eastcoastlady, please refrain from slandering me because you don’t like my opinions. I don’t like yours either but I’m not trying to assassinate your character on these boards. I have a right to question your religious beliefs just like I question other religious beliefs on Beliefnet. I have a right to criticize your religious beliefs just like you have a right to criticize mine, a right you freely exercize. Let me exercize my rights too.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 7:54 pm


“The Jews invented history; the Torah is the story of God’s actions in history as viewed by the Torah’s authors and redactors.” What is this nonsense? Jews invented history? As for the Torah, the Torah covers the myths of origin of one particular group of people on earth. There’s about a half a zillion other myths of origin out there and so when you say the Torah is the story of God’s actions in history where is the Torah reports of Native Americans? Africans?, Indonesians? Do they have no history? “I do not put my spirituality in anyone else’s hands. It is up to me whether to accept the yoke of the Torah or to reject it. But these words of Torah are eternal ( for committed Jews) in a way that Homer and Sophocles are not.” It is also up to you to accept or reject the idea of the Torah that God won’t talk with you, you’re a nobody, God only talked with ancient prophets and kings. Like Martin Buber said people have long ago stopped up their ears from hearing. And here’s moral equivalency for you that is the ethical basis why I don’t place stories of God above real historical events that have proven to help humankind; e.g. the great gifts of knowledge given the world by science begun with the Greeks, by democracy begun with the Greeks, by medical knowledge begun with Egypt, and then there’s the true saviors of humankind, Pasteur, Salk, etc. When we let ourselves divide Creation into “sacred” and “profane” we create an artificial division that doesn’t exist in God’s world. So too it is with beneficial knowledge. Socrates will always remaind a giant of intellect because he said while no religious prophet did, that he knew he was the wisest of men because he knew he did not know. Again, my opinion and only posted for intellectual debate, not to trash other points of view.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 7:54 pm


“The Jews invented history; the Torah is the story of God’s actions in history as viewed by the Torah’s authors and redactors.” What is this nonsense? Jews invented history? As for the Torah, the Torah covers the myths of origin of one particular group of people on earth. There’s about a half a zillion other myths of origin out there and so when you say the Torah is the story of God’s actions in history where is the Torah reports of Native Americans? Africans?, Indonesians? Do they have no history? “I do not put my spirituality in anyone else’s hands. It is up to me whether to accept the yoke of the Torah or to reject it. But these words of Torah are eternal ( for committed Jews) in a way that Homer and Sophocles are not.” It is also up to you to accept or reject the idea of the Torah that God won’t talk with you, you’re a nobody, God only talked with ancient prophets and kings. Like Martin Buber said people have long ago stopped up their ears from hearing. And here’s moral equivalency for you that is the ethical basis why I don’t place stories of God above real historical events that have proven to help humankind; e.g. the great gifts of knowledge given the world by science begun with the Greeks, by democracy begun with the Greeks, by medical knowledge begun with Egypt, and then there’s the true saviors of humankind, Pasteur, Salk, etc. When we let ourselves divide Creation into “sacred” and “profane” we create an artificial division that doesn’t exist in God’s world. So too it is with beneficial knowledge. Socrates will always remaind a giant of intellect because he said while no religious prophet did, that he knew he was the wisest of men because he knew he did not know. Again, my opinion and only posted for intellectual debate, not to trash other points of view.



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Clyde

posted October 16, 2006 at 8:01 pm


ECL, You don’t want to upset any Sacred Cows.:)



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Clyde

posted October 16, 2006 at 8:01 pm


ECL, You don’t want to upset any Sacred Cows.:)



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Tzvi

posted October 16, 2006 at 8:36 pm


I have to put a point of disagreement in here though on the concept of “G-d speaking to ppl”…Buber makes a reference to an Old Hassidic saying that states :”He who as not felt ‘hitlahavut”(lit. The enflaming) in this life will not feelit in the world to come. I had what I like to call the “ultimate” I-Thou relationship with the Holy one once whereby it was like for a breif moment I felt like I had been “touched” by something bigger than myself. It was like a flash of light and for an instant if the world had been in Black and white before, in that instant there was “color”. I can’t explain it, other than to say that for a moment, I had my eyes opened. The problem becomes that I can describe it, but “words” cannot really convey what it felt like,I cannot make others feel what I felt



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Tzvi

posted October 16, 2006 at 8:36 pm


I have to put a point of disagreement in here though on the concept of “G-d speaking to ppl”…Buber makes a reference to an Old Hassidic saying that states :”He who as not felt ‘hitlahavut”(lit. The enflaming) in this life will not feelit in the world to come. I had what I like to call the “ultimate” I-Thou relationship with the Holy one once whereby it was like for a breif moment I felt like I had been “touched” by something bigger than myself. It was like a flash of light and for an instant if the world had been in Black and white before, in that instant there was “color”. I can’t explain it, other than to say that for a moment, I had my eyes opened. The problem becomes that I can describe it, but “words” cannot really convey what it felt like,I cannot make others feel what I felt



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eastcoastlady

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:08 pm


Stephen Lewis, Please stop acting like a victim and making accusations that are unfounded. Calling you an anti-semite is not character assassination; it’s simple truth. You seem to enjoy the role. If anyone is debasing or assassinating anyone, it is you doing it to the entire Jewish people. I don’t spend my time trasing other points of view. To borrow from my good pen-pal Heretic for Christ, you can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you so wish. As long as you don’t spend time telling me why my belief set is a crock, as you have been wont to do.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:08 pm


Stephen Lewis, Please stop acting like a victim and making accusations that are unfounded. Calling you an anti-semite is not character assassination; it’s simple truth. You seem to enjoy the role. If anyone is debasing or assassinating anyone, it is you doing it to the entire Jewish people. I don’t spend my time trasing other points of view. To borrow from my good pen-pal Heretic for Christ, you can believe in the Flying Spaghetti Monster if you so wish. As long as you don’t spend time telling me why my belief set is a crock, as you have been wont to do.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:43 pm


Eastcoastlady, I don’t have to act like a victim of slander, I am a victim of slander of my religious beliefs. You don’t want a level playing field. You want to be able to criticise Christians and you do but you don’t want anyone to criticize Judaism. This is a public religious debate forum is it not?



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:43 pm


Eastcoastlady, I don’t have to act like a victim of slander, I am a victim of slander of my religious beliefs. You don’t want a level playing field. You want to be able to criticise Christians and you do but you don’t want anyone to criticize Judaism. This is a public religious debate forum is it not?



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:51 pm


tzvi, that is what I am looking for, reports of direct contact with the Creator. I am prone to having periodic episodes of religious “mania” I suppose you’d call it wherein I receive revelations that literally shake me with emotion as they come in to my mind. The sensation is overpowering. These episodes aren’t on anyone’s timetable and come when they come–sometimes years go by without anything, other times many such revelations come in a row. But the thing is, I “know” as a Gnostic knows Gnosis of God, that these are what the prophets of old experienced, direct contact with the Great Mysterious One and they beat reading about ancient men’s experiences all to pieces–this is the real deal and the books are ancient records of the real deal in olden times. The point I am making is that God does talk to us in the here and now only like Buber said, we have to have ears open to listen.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 16, 2006 at 9:51 pm


tzvi, that is what I am looking for, reports of direct contact with the Creator. I am prone to having periodic episodes of religious “mania” I suppose you’d call it wherein I receive revelations that literally shake me with emotion as they come in to my mind. The sensation is overpowering. These episodes aren’t on anyone’s timetable and come when they come–sometimes years go by without anything, other times many such revelations come in a row. But the thing is, I “know” as a Gnostic knows Gnosis of God, that these are what the prophets of old experienced, direct contact with the Great Mysterious One and they beat reading about ancient men’s experiences all to pieces–this is the real deal and the books are ancient records of the real deal in olden times. The point I am making is that God does talk to us in the here and now only like Buber said, we have to have ears open to listen.



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jethro

posted October 16, 2006 at 10:54 pm


Stephen I am glad that God speaks to you now, truly. As for me, however, even after years of trying and praying, I cannot state that I have felt that God has directly spoken to me. Unless God is Keith Jarrett.



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jethro

posted October 16, 2006 at 10:54 pm


Stephen I am glad that God speaks to you now, truly. As for me, however, even after years of trying and praying, I cannot state that I have felt that God has directly spoken to me. Unless God is Keith Jarrett.



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Ruby

posted October 17, 2006 at 12:08 am


God is omni present. He speaks to all of us everywhere, every day. He cares about the most mundane activity of our lives. If we only take the fraction of a moment to just stop and be still to here him. thru the wind, rains, trees, a bird that sings. Didn’t he say that even King Solomon was not arrayed as the lilys in the field? He talks to us thru others if we only listen to the sound advice they are giving to our questions. If he will give shelter and food to the birds in the trees surely our God cares about us to communicate to us. We are just to stubborn to listen. We think it should be loud like when he spoke to Mose in the Wilderness or to Abraham. But we are not obedient to God’s voice or we would behave differently daily. We would fear our God and Creator as the prophets and the wise men of God did and do as Abraham, Noah, King David, Peter, Stephen and Paul did!



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 2:12 am


I would like to add here that while the emotionally charged episodes are awesome to experience, God is more prone to “talking” to people in a more quiet way, more like Elijah’s small voice. The “quiet” way God talks to me and to everyone I was shown in my original religious conversion experience (which was one of big spiritual blaster types ala road to Damascus, a huge big one that lasted three intense days and set me on my spiritual path), is through synchronicity events, those weird deja vu, dream, funny coincidences that are actually “signs” meant to connect something in your immediate mundane experience with a spiritual meaning for your spiritual life in a dramatic, “illogical” but yet spiritually logical in its own type of way. These things happen to all of us only most of us aren’t conscious of them. I happened to have a religious conversion experience that consisted of three days of non-stop synchronicity events that utterly destroyed my prior atheistic “faith” in science as the end all of the explanation of things of this world.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 2:12 am


I would like to add here that while the emotionally charged episodes are awesome to experience, God is more prone to “talking” to people in a more quiet way, more like Elijah’s small voice. The “quiet” way God talks to me and to everyone I was shown in my original religious conversion experience (which was one of big spiritual blaster types ala road to Damascus, a huge big one that lasted three intense days and set me on my spiritual path), is through synchronicity events, those weird deja vu, dream, funny coincidences that are actually “signs” meant to connect something in your immediate mundane experience with a spiritual meaning for your spiritual life in a dramatic, “illogical” but yet spiritually logical in its own type of way. These things happen to all of us only most of us aren’t conscious of them. I happened to have a religious conversion experience that consisted of three days of non-stop synchronicity events that utterly destroyed my prior atheistic “faith” in science as the end all of the explanation of things of this world.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 2:25 am


I give this background in order to explain why I post what I post. There are some spiritual truths that must be faced by Judaism, by Pauline Christianity, by Islam, in short, by all the traditional Abrahamic faiths, because…well, look at our world today and then look at the role of Abrahamics in creating this world of unnecessary war and misery between peoples. God never meant for that! One of the biggest hurdles to social fellowship and peace is religious division so, yes, I do attack the origins of division in human compassion which, yes, will attack the origins of traditional Judaism just as it does the origins of Pauline Christianity and Islam, all three sharing an “insider” vs. “outsider” cult territorial mentality that when codified into doctrine destroys God’s constant work to unify humanity through universalization of humane spirituality as the basis of humane social law. The Abrahamic doctrines stand in the way of this process and are being criticized and dethroned bit by bit through the supercession process of accurate factual history vs. religious mythology that I am a part of.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 2:25 am


I give this background in order to explain why I post what I post. There are some spiritual truths that must be faced by Judaism, by Pauline Christianity, by Islam, in short, by all the traditional Abrahamic faiths, because…well, look at our world today and then look at the role of Abrahamics in creating this world of unnecessary war and misery between peoples. God never meant for that! One of the biggest hurdles to social fellowship and peace is religious division so, yes, I do attack the origins of division in human compassion which, yes, will attack the origins of traditional Judaism just as it does the origins of Pauline Christianity and Islam, all three sharing an “insider” vs. “outsider” cult territorial mentality that when codified into doctrine destroys God’s constant work to unify humanity through universalization of humane spirituality as the basis of humane social law. The Abrahamic doctrines stand in the way of this process and are being criticized and dethroned bit by bit through the supercession process of accurate factual history vs. religious mythology that I am a part of.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 17, 2006 at 3:11 am


Stephen, Once again, you lie and show your duplicity. NOT ONCE have I criticized Christians or Christianity. I have only taken exception to your specific posts.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 12:36 pm


Well, my recollection is that you laid into my Christian beliefs without differentiating them from Gnostic ones but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope you will confine your criticisms of my posts to ideological content and not attributes of my personality or character so that the discussion remains on an intellectual level and doesn’t devolve into name-calling.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 17, 2006 at 12:36 pm


Well, my recollection is that you laid into my Christian beliefs without differentiating them from Gnostic ones but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. I hope you will confine your criticisms of my posts to ideological content and not attributes of my personality or character so that the discussion remains on an intellectual level and doesn’t devolve into name-calling.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 17, 2006 at 2:12 pm


Well, my recollection is that you laid into my Christian beliefs without differentiating them from Gnostic ones but I will give you the benefit of the doubt. NOT. That wasn’t me. I read it, too. It was another poster.



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Karin

posted October 17, 2006 at 6:23 pm


It was “gracious” of Stephen to give ECL the benefit of the doubt. And that is the danger of assumptions! (There is an expression that I learned in the military about the word assume, but it can’t be explained for risk of breaking rules). BTW: it took less than 3 minutes to find the post with reference to Gnostic and ECL is correct; she was not the poster. One of the blessings of being older is the need to check my references before I shoot from the hip.



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Karin

posted October 17, 2006 at 6:23 pm


It was “gracious” of Stephen to give ECL the benefit of the doubt. And that is the danger of assumptions! (There is an expression that I learned in the military about the word assume, but it can’t be explained for risk of breaking rules). BTW: it took less than 3 minutes to find the post with reference to Gnostic and ECL is correct; she was not the poster. One of the blessings of being older is the need to check my references before I shoot from the hip.



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Wendell

posted October 18, 2006 at 12:08 am


If we cannot ever know G-d, then what is the point of it all, its the hope that we can know G-d, and in the knowing become more G-d like, that we can strive and (hopefully) attain nirvana (sorry tomix the metaphor) to attain true peace in G-d…



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Wendell

posted October 18, 2006 at 12:08 am


If we cannot ever know G-d, then what is the point of it all, its the hope that we can know G-d, and in the knowing become more G-d like, that we can strive and (hopefully) attain nirvana (sorry tomix the metaphor) to attain true peace in G-d…



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Scott

posted October 18, 2006 at 12:43 am


Karin, I was the poster with the “gnostic” post, and I stand by it. I have at least 2 years of experience with Mr. Lewis spewing anti-Semitism on the Judaism Debate boards. He has had at least 12 user names banned. He gets no slack because his motives aren’t so nice.



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Dayrl Hern

posted October 18, 2006 at 1:19 am


In truth, idolatry is making anything that was created by Yahowah or man and then to bow down to it. Praying to it, or worshipping it. Yahowah said that He is a jealous All Mighty One. Therefore I would not bow down to a cross or a statue of the Messiah and pray to it. Most churches teach us wrong. If yours does, question it. Dayrl Hern



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Dayrl Hern

posted October 18, 2006 at 1:19 am


In truth, idolatry is making anything that was created by Yahowah or man and then to bow down to it. Praying to it, or worshipping it. Yahowah said that He is a jealous All Mighty One. Therefore I would not bow down to a cross or a statue of the Messiah and pray to it. Most churches teach us wrong. If yours does, question it. Dayrl Hern



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 18, 2006 at 4:31 am


I have a question for you all. Are Christians posters on Beliefnet considered “anti-Semitic” if they believe in the words of Jesus Christ as written in the New Testament? I’m trying to get some idea of how deep this religious intolerance of Christian teachings goes.



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Stephen Lewis

posted October 18, 2006 at 4:31 am


I have a question for you all. Are Christians posters on Beliefnet considered “anti-Semitic” if they believe in the words of Jesus Christ as written in the New Testament? I’m trying to get some idea of how deep this religious intolerance of Christian teachings goes.



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eastcoastlady

posted October 18, 2006 at 2:57 pm


Stephen Lewis is crying about “intolerance”? Now, that is a laugh!



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 4:22 pm


What people need too understand is,that FREEDOM of FREE will WAS GIVEN by GOD HIMSELF.THROUGH JESUS, we are saved. JESUS gave us the FREE will. For,HE FIRST gave FREE will in saving us. So NO one should push NO one into receiving Christ. JUST tell them of Father GOD,JEsus the SON,AND the Holy Spirit.THEN it is there Free choice. IF they choose GOOD, then GOOD will be given them. If they choose Wrong, that also will be given them. When somone pushes another too GOD, then the person pushed to GOD, did NOT really wholeheartly except GOD. Then it is a vain doing to begin with. Then the person pushing, has that judgement of a lost soul on his own judgment. Following the BIBle is needed today as much ,OR more than previous centuries. Because of more terror in this century we live in,than biblical times.IT shows LOVE to your neighbor. NOT hatred. BIBle Followers on the most part,are kinder do to the GOOD Spiritual connection. SOMEONE said earlier in this chat ,that men of biblical centuries has nothing to do with this century. WRONG…those mens lives were set by GOD for a reason. EACH life showed what man goes through even today. Though each set of shoes, is a little different in the road they travel.To most part same as men in biblical. It was lessons to learn for your GOOD,and Health.To live a better life, in health, spirit, prosperity. THE bible was GIVEN to mans mind by GOD to write them down. IT takes a Spiritual understanding to get this concept. There Is GOOD and bad in all because we live in the earthly. That is why Those of GOD seek HIS Wisdom. BUT even those not of GOD,Have GOOD in them. THAT GOOD is what reachs to them in their mind. TO be kind to neighbors.To show Love in compassion. The GOOD that says there is something more I seek. That GOOD is GOD calling,HEY I AM here,I did not move. YOU did. I await you excepting me. IT is your choice. The idolatry because they kiss a Torah. Worshipping a idol because they knelt at a statue ect.. Well The Torah, Cross, ARc of GOD, all reprisent GOD, Jesus, and the HOLY Spirit.So to KISS, or to Bow to it is Doing the same in HIS presence as act of Faith He is there.A Point of contact by right of Blood by HIS SON. Now to bow to anY object that has not GOD in it.The True GOD. THEn YES this is idolatry. THE THING is that who is your GOD…each person has a different thinking in this…FREE will..THERE choice. Someone said that where is Native Americans, and Other Cultured people. WEll there was something lost in translation in the centuries. WHITE man assumed they were the only ones to know GOD. ALL else was savage. And we had to teach them OF GOD,BY mans ways of doing things. NOT always the GODly way in teaching them.NOR even at all times to give other cultures kindness from LOve shown them from their GOD. MANy died in the name of GOD, BY those that took it more into their own hands .Than Gods hands. I believe that all continents and peoples had GOD.But when continents and people came together the language barrier and not understanding their ways.Was the conflict of thinking… HEy they are savage. YES their are evil gods too.People believing they have the right one. Once again there choice we can BUT tell them OF GOD JEHOVAH. NOT push. However I believe that at the Tower of Babel all had one language. They had One Almighty God. WHom they tried to be smarter than their GOD. SO the Tower of Babel fell. People devided. Languages that all understood,became jumbled into manY different languages. So Hince the same GOD but known by many names through language differences.Yes their are false gods you can only HOPE you have chosen wisely. Someone said that Dreams and ways God spoke to them. YEs this happens the more you connect to GOD. BUT once again it takes understanding Of Spiritual to concept this. I too have these GIFTS of GOD My FATHER. WE are not to know all we try to know in the earthly. Ony GOD knows all and sees all.WHY? HE created it all.We cannot out do HIM. Though manY try.AND yes Heaven is beyond conception in our human mind. The closest we can imagine be like is the movie of Robin Williams. WHERE DREAMS MAY COME. Truer concept as we can depict Heaven or Hell. AND it was NOT even close to what GOD showed me…IT WAS AWESOME! It was mentioned that the prophets was non sense. PRophet means to fortell something,to teach something. GOD gave them visions of the future to teach. IF you doubt it,Read the BIBLE, and see what was revealed centuries aga. That is coming to pass now. WHAt do you think they had time travel or something? It is beyond measure a human could have done these insights themselves. Why I refer too.. someone says…SO not to point a finger at others. Too point at someone their faults, IS pointing 1 at them, with 3 fingers pointing back your own faults. We are human ,WE have faults. Let me add IF I offend anY one I mean NOT tOo. I apoligize if I offended… BUT I d NOT apoligize for my belief in WHOM I BELIEVE…WHich is JESUS CHRIST. WHY do I mention this…BEcause someone reported me to Beliefnet as Pushing Christ. As putting down others…. God knows I am not that way….That is all that matters too me… GOD BLESS, Shalom,Peace,HAVE GOOD DAY! OR whatever floats your own boat. IN CHRIST Patsy



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 4:22 pm


What people need too understand is,that FREEDOM of FREE will WAS GIVEN by GOD HIMSELF.THROUGH JESUS, we are saved. JESUS gave us the FREE will. For,HE FIRST gave FREE will in saving us. So NO one should push NO one into receiving Christ. JUST tell them of Father GOD,JEsus the SON,AND the Holy Spirit.THEN it is there Free choice. IF they choose GOOD, then GOOD will be given them. If they choose Wrong, that also will be given them. When somone pushes another too GOD, then the person pushed to GOD, did NOT really wholeheartly except GOD. Then it is a vain doing to begin with. Then the person pushing, has that judgement of a lost soul on his own judgment. Following the BIBle is needed today as much ,OR more than previous centuries. Because of more terror in this century we live in,than biblical times.IT shows LOVE to your neighbor. NOT hatred. BIBle Followers on the most part,are kinder do to the GOOD Spiritual connection. SOMEONE said earlier in this chat ,that men of biblical centuries has nothing to do with this century. WRONG…those mens lives were set by GOD for a reason. EACH life showed what man goes through even today. Though each set of shoes, is a little different in the road they travel.To most part same as men in biblical. It was lessons to learn for your GOOD,and Health.To live a better life, in health, spirit, prosperity. THE bible was GIVEN to mans mind by GOD to write them down. IT takes a Spiritual understanding to get this concept. There Is GOOD and bad in all because we live in the earthly. That is why Those of GOD seek HIS Wisdom. BUT even those not of GOD,Have GOOD in them. THAT GOOD is what reachs to them in their mind. TO be kind to neighbors.To show Love in compassion. The GOOD that says there is something more I seek. That GOOD is GOD calling,HEY I AM here,I did not move. YOU did. I await you excepting me. IT is your choice. The idolatry because they kiss a Torah. Worshipping a idol because they knelt at a statue ect.. Well The Torah, Cross, ARc of GOD, all reprisent GOD, Jesus, and the HOLY Spirit.So to KISS, or to Bow to it is Doing the same in HIS presence as act of Faith He is there.A Point of contact by right of Blood by HIS SON. Now to bow to anY object that has not GOD in it.The True GOD. THEn YES this is idolatry. THE THING is that who is your GOD…each person has a different thinking in this…FREE will..THERE choice. Someone said that where is Native Americans, and Other Cultured people. WEll there was something lost in translation in the centuries. WHITE man assumed they were the only ones to know GOD. ALL else was savage. And we had to teach them OF GOD,BY mans ways of doing things. NOT always the GODly way in teaching them.NOR even at all times to give other cultures kindness from LOve shown them from their GOD. MANy died in the name of GOD, BY those that took it more into their own hands .Than Gods hands. I believe that all continents and peoples had GOD.But when continents and people came together the language barrier and not understanding their ways.Was the conflict of thinking… HEy they are savage. YES their are evil gods too.People believing they have the right one. Once again there choice we can BUT tell them OF GOD JEHOVAH. NOT push. However I believe that at the Tower of Babel all had one language. They had One Almighty God. WHom they tried to be smarter than their GOD. SO the Tower of Babel fell. People devided. Languages that all understood,became jumbled into manY different languages. So Hince the same GOD but known by many names through language differences.Yes their are false gods you can only HOPE you have chosen wisely. Someone said that Dreams and ways God spoke to them. YEs this happens the more you connect to GOD. BUT once again it takes understanding Of Spiritual to concept this. I too have these GIFTS of GOD My FATHER. WE are not to know all we try to know in the earthly. Ony GOD knows all and sees all.WHY? HE created it all.We cannot out do HIM. Though manY try.AND yes Heaven is beyond conception in our human mind. The closest we can imagine be like is the movie of Robin Williams. WHERE DREAMS MAY COME. Truer concept as we can depict Heaven or Hell. AND it was NOT even close to what GOD showed me…IT WAS AWESOME! It was mentioned that the prophets was non sense. PRophet means to fortell something,to teach something. GOD gave them visions of the future to teach. IF you doubt it,Read the BIBLE, and see what was revealed centuries aga. That is coming to pass now. WHAt do you think they had time travel or something? It is beyond measure a human could have done these insights themselves. Why I refer too.. someone says…SO not to point a finger at others. Too point at someone their faults, IS pointing 1 at them, with 3 fingers pointing back your own faults. We are human ,WE have faults. Let me add IF I offend anY one I mean NOT tOo. I apoligize if I offended… BUT I d NOT apoligize for my belief in WHOM I BELIEVE…WHich is JESUS CHRIST. WHY do I mention this…BEcause someone reported me to Beliefnet as Pushing Christ. As putting down others…. God knows I am not that way….That is all that matters too me… GOD BLESS, Shalom,Peace,HAVE GOOD DAY! OR whatever floats your own boat. IN CHRIST Patsy



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Karin

posted October 18, 2006 at 8:27 pm


Scott, I knew you were the poster, and could have written it, but it seems a good exercise for someone to check their “sources”; why make it easy for them? :-) Mr. Lewis asks how “deep the intolerance” for “Christian teaching goes”. My question to Mr. Lewis is why would Christians even want to post on a Jewish site. I have no trouble with a question, even though there are specific boards for that. What I don’t want to read is something like Patsy Powell’s post; her ending is condescending, e.g. “whatever floats your boat” then her final two words. Is that necessary? I think not. I may go look up a term used by a Christian poster, but I would never dream of going on their site and informing them of how wrong they are; I daresay you are not going to see any of us posting in your areas.



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 9:21 pm


Well that shows whom is condescending then…especially with what is a childish comeback… Christians become Jewish By the Spirit of Christ…. You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. MAny jews,christians and others post on christian sites. BUT I guess you want no ones assessment but your own and those that follow the same,on your site. I said, or whatever floats your boat in reference to those whom do not believe in GOD BLESS,SHALOM,PEACE, or any religious way. TO include them. I guess I could have discluded them. That is what you are doing in NO one posting here BUT jews. IN CHRIST Patsy



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 9:21 pm


Well that shows whom is condescending then…especially with what is a childish comeback… Christians become Jewish By the Spirit of Christ…. You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. MAny jews,christians and others post on christian sites. BUT I guess you want no ones assessment but your own and those that follow the same,on your site. I said, or whatever floats your boat in reference to those whom do not believe in GOD BLESS,SHALOM,PEACE, or any religious way. TO include them. I guess I could have discluded them. That is what you are doing in NO one posting here BUT jews. IN CHRIST Patsy



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Marian Taylor

posted October 18, 2006 at 10:38 pm


Know God? He can be known, but only as much as He chooses to reveal Himself. Case in point: Moses spoke to The Almighty face-to-face, and Abraham was known as The Friend of God. Besides – God CHOSE to make Himself “knowable” in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who is both fully God and fully man. Remember: “We shall know as we are known.” Shalom to all. Marian Taylor



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Marian Taylor

posted October 18, 2006 at 10:38 pm


Know God? He can be known, but only as much as He chooses to reveal Himself. Case in point: Moses spoke to The Almighty face-to-face, and Abraham was known as The Friend of God. Besides – God CHOSE to make Himself “knowable” in the Person of Jesus Christ, Who is both fully God and fully man. Remember: “We shall know as we are known.” Shalom to all. Marian Taylor



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 11:54 pm


YES MARIAN



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Patsy Powell

posted October 18, 2006 at 11:54 pm


YES MARIAN



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Karin

posted October 19, 2006 at 2:27 am


“Shalom to all” is a world of difference to screaming (all caps) “In Christ”. I can see why you were reported. I noticed in your original post that you used the reference of one finger pointing at someone, three coming back at self. The rest of the saying that goes with that is “you spot it, you got it.” I do study Torah and not from the King James version (which I do not have). Frankly, I enjoy most theological discussions with people who are not trying to ram and or force-feed their beliefs down my throat; I do get very stiff-necked at that point. Selfishly, because of being in an area with very few Jews, yes, I would prefer a Jewish site for Jews because it is an outreach source for me and an opportunity to expand my knowledge. Can you understand that?



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Karin

posted October 19, 2006 at 2:27 am


“Shalom to all” is a world of difference to screaming (all caps) “In Christ”. I can see why you were reported. I noticed in your original post that you used the reference of one finger pointing at someone, three coming back at self. The rest of the saying that goes with that is “you spot it, you got it.” I do study Torah and not from the King James version (which I do not have). Frankly, I enjoy most theological discussions with people who are not trying to ram and or force-feed their beliefs down my throat; I do get very stiff-necked at that point. Selfishly, because of being in an area with very few Jews, yes, I would prefer a Jewish site for Jews because it is an outreach source for me and an opportunity to expand my knowledge. Can you understand that?



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eastcoastlady

posted October 19, 2006 at 3:16 am


You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. This is just completely inaccurate. The KJV is far from what Jews want to read as a translation of our Torah. As we wander yet further from the original subject of this column…



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eastcoastlady

posted October 19, 2006 at 3:16 am


You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. This is just completely inaccurate. The KJV is far from what Jews want to read as a translation of our Torah. As we wander yet further from the original subject of this column…



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Erik

posted October 20, 2006 at 5:38 am


Stephen, If I read Homer’s Iliad is Zeus speaking with me? If you have the ears to hear. (Although I do side with Plato in thinking that Homer’s portrayal of the Gods is somewhat impious…)



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nicknack

posted October 29, 2006 at 2:40 am


You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. Actually, the King James Version was translated at least partly from a Hebrew version (the rest was from the Greek), but given that it was done by a bunch of English Christian males with the purpose of making a bible to use in church, I doubt any Jew would consider it even close to the Tanakh. Also, I might remind some of the those that are using these boards to proselytize that they are 1) being rather rude and inconsiderate and 2) are wasting their time, since I would figure that anyone else reading this part of the website feels strongly in their Jewish beliefs. Please take your efforts somewhere else, if you feel you must do them.



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nicknack

posted October 29, 2006 at 2:40 am


You need to reread your Torah….Or the King James Version of the Bible, which is the version that came from the Torah. Actually, the King James Version was translated at least partly from a Hebrew version (the rest was from the Greek), but given that it was done by a bunch of English Christian males with the purpose of making a bible to use in church, I doubt any Jew would consider it even close to the Tanakh. Also, I might remind some of the those that are using these boards to proselytize that they are 1) being rather rude and inconsiderate and 2) are wasting their time, since I would figure that anyone else reading this part of the website feels strongly in their Jewish beliefs. Please take your efforts somewhere else, if you feel you must do them.



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