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Via Media


The Vatican on Milingo

posted by awelborn

Here:

La Santa Sede non ha ancora ricevuto notizie precise sulla finalità del viaggio negli Stati Uniti d’America di Mons. Emmanuel Milingo, già Arcivescovo di Lusaka in Zambia.

In ogni caso se le dichiarazioni che gli vengono attribuite circa il celibato ecclesiastico risultassero vere, non rimarrebbe che deplorarle, essendo ben nota la disciplina della Chiesa al riguardo.

Someone can translate, but I know the first paragraph says that the Holy See has not yet received exact information on the voyage of Archbishop Milingo to the US.

Rocco has more, including words from Stallings.

The Washington Times reports on yesterday’s press conference.

Fr. Z has a post on the beliefs of the Stallings church.



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Henry Dieterich

posted July 13, 2006 at 8:58 am


Approximately:
The Holy See has not yet received precise notification concerning the outcome of the trip to the United States of Mons. Emmanuel Milingo, former archbishop of Lusaka.
In any case, if it turns out that the statements attributed to him concerning ecclesiastical celibacy are true, it goes without saying that we deplore them, since the discipline of the Church in that regard is well known.



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Tim F.

posted July 13, 2006 at 9:07 am


Hmm. The Washington Times, of course. I have never felt comfortable with the relationship between conservative journalists and the Moonies.



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CV

posted July 13, 2006 at 9:40 am


I admit I’m clueless, so I am hoping someone can clue me in here.
This whole thing seems to be an entertaining sideshow and I understand that a rogue archbishop is more of a problem than a rogue priest. But as in the case of the female “priests” who claim to have been “ordained” by those mysterious unnamed bishops, wouldn’t any ordinations (of married priests, for example) by Archibishop Milingo automatically be invalid?
He would seem to be excommunicating himself in a spectacularly public manner, but nothing more.
It’s all fascinating to watch, of course, what with the Moonie connection and all. But why the talk of schism?



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Tim F.

posted July 13, 2006 at 9:50 am


I’m no expert but my understanding is, even if he is excommunicated, he still has valid orders and can ordain. Not women though and not someone who does not hold the beliefs regarding the Mass of the Catholic Church.



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Tim Ferguson

posted July 13, 2006 at 10:18 am


Tim F. is correct (and has a wonderful name, too!). Even excommunicated, he is able to confect the sacraments validly, including ordination. If he were to ordain a bishop, that bishop would be automatically excommunicated.
Any priestly ordinations would be valid, except, of course, those of women. In addition, ordinations could be open to the plaint of nullity if there were questions about his intention or their intentions (e.g., Anglican Orders were declared to be invalid in 1896 in part because of a defect of intention – they did not intend to ordain sacrificing priests).



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Mike

posted July 13, 2006 at 10:29 am


CV- I don’t know if this issue constitutes a serious or major schism, but it’s a schism nonetheless. My interpretation is that a schismatic group is one that breaks off from communion with the Pope, but retains valid apostolic succession and the sacraments (speifically Holy Orders).
The Orthodox and some Traditionalist groups are considered to be in schism with the Catholic Church because they have continued the line of bishops from the apostles.
Protestants, however, are not considered to have valid apostolic succession and therefore do not have valid priests or valid sacraments outside of baptism and matrimony.
This new group could presumably continue valid (but illicit, of course) apostolic succession because they have a validly ordained bishop, who can in turn ordain more bishops and priests. In this case, at least theoretically, as long as a (male) line of bishops remains intact, they would theoretically be valid.



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Mike

posted July 13, 2006 at 10:32 am


Also, when I said that this would not constitute a “serious” schism – I didn’t mean it would not be a serious matter, but that I doubt that this small group of wackos will have a serious effect.



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CV

posted July 13, 2006 at 11:18 am


Thanks for the primer, both Tims and Mike.
I am still scratching my head, but I think it has more to do with His Wackiness.



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Simon

posted July 13, 2006 at 2:39 pm


Why is Rocco Palmo seemingly hell-bent on making this a major story?
Mlingo (Episcopo Loco) and Stallings are both nuts. Mlingo is consorting with the Moonies. Stallings has been an acolyte of Louis Farrakhan. Neither of these jokers has any substantial number of followers.
Despite their DC press conference yesterday, I don’t think the Washington Post even bothered to cover this story.
So it’s hard not to laugh at Rocco Palmo covering this silliness with multiple updates each day and proclaiming it a “mega-schism.”
Now, if you’re looking for a genuine Mega-Schism, check out the fast-growing Society of St. Pius I: http://209.157.64.200/focus/f-religion/1406639/posts



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chris K

posted July 13, 2006 at 3:19 pm


Can we get some things straight about there being “married” priests from the beginning in the Church. Christ may have called men who were married, but they were asked to give up everything for the sake of the Kingdom. Later, as things are oft to do with human nature (like Moses allowing divorce) when priests remained living the married state, there were all kinds of restrictions placed on them where no one could say they were living the normally expected life of a married man in the “secular” culture.
No wonder there is the prediction of only a remnant remaining for the New Era. With these kinds of pied pipers arriving on the scene daily, folks are easily succumbing to the sea!
Neither of these jokers has any substantial number of followers.
Yes, but linking to the Moonies one can just see the usual suspects of the MSM informing the public how the Catholic Church is now associated with the Rev. Moon. Wondering if this will be looked upon as an opportunity for the “Rent-a-priest” group!
Get your red hot celebrets here!



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Christopher

posted July 13, 2006 at 4:28 pm


The Catholic Church DOES permit married men to be ordained as Priests (under certain circumstances such as the Pastoral Provision in the US), just not Priests to marry.



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Matt

posted July 13, 2006 at 4:46 pm


Christopher, perhaps a little more explanation is in order for those who are not familiar with the Church’s discipline.
The Catholic church does allow married men to become priests in the Eastern Rites. In fact, it is quite normal for Catholic priests in the Eastern Rites to be married. However, it does not allow men who are already priests to marry.
In the Latin rite, which predominates in the western hemisphere, the only married men who are allowed to become priests are married clergymen who convert from another religion.



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Simon

posted July 13, 2006 at 4:49 pm


And in both East and West bishops, who have the fullness of the priesthood, must be celibate.



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Tom Haessler

posted July 13, 2006 at 5:49 pm


I checked out Stallings website and noticed that he regards the “Holy” Quran as a source of faith! Tim Ferguson, could this have an impact on the issue of intention in ordaining? Just wondering.



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Tim Ferguson

posted July 13, 2006 at 6:06 pm


I would say that there are some significant issues that have potential impact on Stallings ability to confect all the sacraments validly. He does not appear (from the Creed posted over at WDTPRS.com/blog) to accept the salvific nature of Christ’s death (indeed, he doesn’t seem to accept that Christ died. Maintaining the Quran as a source of faith would imply a warped view of Divine Revelation. Stallings is extremely intelligent, his theological meanderings from the dogma and doctrine of the Church can’t be chalked up to mental laziness or inability, and therefore must be tied into his will and his intention.
Were there to be a trial to determine the validity of a sacrament he confected – baptism, ordination, the Eucharist – there would be more than enough grist for the mill to lean toward invalidity. However, it should be noted that, in questions of the validity of sacraments, the presumption is always on the side of validity, so the arguments would have to overturn that presumption to the level of moral certitude.



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Sandra Miesel

posted July 13, 2006 at 7:02 pm


Those restrictions on married men ordained to the priesthood in the first millennium included total and permanent cessation of marital relations. A man could be ordained without his wife’s knowledge and consent and thereafter she was stuck without sex and without the right to remarry in widowhood. This tended to make the role of priest’s wife less popular. After the Hildebrandine Reforms many parish priests still kept concubines. This was one of the abuses the Reformation was supposed to address but the new married Prootestant clergy soon formed a caste unrelated to the common people they served. There are practical advantages to celibacy!



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Tim Ferguson

posted July 13, 2006 at 11:03 pm


Thank you Sandra – the knee-jerk reaction against clerical celibacy all too often overlooks the positive aspects of a celibate clergy.
If the medieval papacy really was merely fixated on “power” it would seem that they would, like the developing monarchies of the time, at least permit themselves to marry and pass on that “power” to their heirs.



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Henry Dieterich

posted July 14, 2006 at 9:10 am


Actually the heritability of feudal tenures was something kings (and other suzerains) tried to resist, but were unsuccessful in general because the only people who could enforce their will were the people who were trying to thwart it. The reason is easy to see: heritability meant that they could not control who their vassals were, and could not place the most qualified or loyal men in those positions. At the time of the Gregorian reform, clerical concubinage similarly threatened the Church, as ecclesiastical offices, like secular ones, were becoming hereditary possessions of families. Mrs. Miesel is correct that Protestant clergy, especially in Lutheran Germany, had become a caste after only a century of Reformation. By the seventeenth century, not only were most Lutheran pastors the sons of pastors, but most of their wives were pastors’ daughters. Likewise in Orthodox countries it is not an uncommon phenomenon for the office of priest in a village to pass from father to son. Nevertheless, there is considerable evidence that the discipline of celibacy, or at least total abstinence from sexual relations, for the clergy is very ancient and that the practice of allowing priests to have the use of marriage was a concession rather than a primitive practice. Even now, I believe, Eastern priests are expected to abstain from sexual relations with their wives for a full day before celebrating the Divine Liturgy. The analogy commonly made in the early Church was to the priests and Levites who served in the Temple, who were required to abstain from sexual relations during their time of service. Since priests of the New Covenant sacrifice are on duty all the time, they should never have sexual relations. St. Paul suggests that even married lay people may be able to pray better if they don’t have relations for awhile.



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chris K

posted July 14, 2006 at 11:05 am


Even now, I believe, Eastern priests are expected to abstain from sexual relations with their wives for a full day before celebrating the Divine Liturgy.
…..
Since priests of the New Covenant sacrifice are on duty all the time, they should never have sexual relations.

Henry, this was my logical understanding as well. Does anyone know if this “order” is given to those married priest/minister converts permitted to be ordained in the Catholic church? If so, it never is stated in interviews with them. It’s usually only the agreement by both spouses that they can see the value of the celibacy rule in general. One doesn’t get the impression though that they are under any strict expectations re: the daily sacrifice. If so, that should be spelled out to the “priests should be allowed to marry like everyone else” crowd.



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Mary Kay

posted July 14, 2006 at 1:45 pm


Tim F, in the course of looking up Milingo yesterday, I found a Washington Post article that said that the News World Communications, which owns the Washington Times, is a subsidary of the Unification (Moonie) Church.



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Moon Man

posted July 14, 2006 at 3:18 pm


Yes, Mary Kay, the News World-Wash.Times-Unification Church link has been public knowledge for over 20 years. And it proves what? That the mix of conservative journalists and Moonies makes people uncomfortable? Nice blog you’ve got here but the ad hominem stuff on Milingo & Stallings dilutes the relevant points. Some of the hand-wringing is amusing but the best part was the shock that Stallings appears to regard the Quran as (gasp)a source of faith!



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Simon

posted July 14, 2006 at 3:51 pm


Moon Man,
Pray tell us what the “relevant points” are that have been diluted.
Mlingo and Stallings are trying to puff up their latest antics as some sort of bold challenge to Church discipline and/or a great schism. In that context, it’s certainly relevant that —
1. They are in some way associating their movement with the Moonies and Stallings, at least, has praised the authority of the Koran. Neither of these positions passes the laugh test among orthodox Christians of any church.
2. Neither Stallings nor Mlingo has any substantial number of followers.
3. Both Stallings and Mlingo are, frankly, nuts, a fact which has been a secret to no one for the past 20 years or so.



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chris K

posted July 15, 2006 at 10:21 am


John Allen’s exclusive interview with Milingo where Milingo defends Rev. Moon:
http://www.nationalcatholicreporter.org/update/bn071406.htm



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