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NeoCatechumenal Responses..

posted by awelborn

A NW spokesman reponds to Jimmy Akin’s characterization of his Zenit interview as "spin"

Jimmy Akin’s response

Magister’s original article, and here is the Zenit interview

Also, in the Word from Rome, the same spokesman responds to John Allen



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Gail

posted January 7, 2006 at 10:58 am


Akins criticism and self-defense are captious in all respects.
I’ve read all the documents and don’t have a dog in this fight.
Gennarini bests Akins on every point, in my opinion. His letter to Akins is far more convincing and to the point than Akins’ response.
When cornered, Akins resorts to saying “maybe” and “possibly” fault couldn’t be found with their services when they were being observed because “maybe” and “possibly” they behave differently when they are alone. “Maybe” and “possibly” there is a service somewhere that is different from the ones attended and observed by an approving B16. This is desperation on Akins’ part and should embarrass him to have recorded in print.
Noting, as Akins does, that B16 says proper procedure (what Akins calls “the liturgical books”)must be followed without citations by B16 of offenses doesn’t say anything but that B16 wants procedure followed in all eucharistic celebrations – he’s written books about this.
Akins says procedure is “possibly circumvented”, again “maybe” and “possibly” in some place that no one has observed and therefore can’t cite.
The clincher is that 3 statements by B16 over a period of years praising the NeoCatechumenal services is NOT SUFFICIENT for Akins. He’d rather try to make an issue of a 4th statement which doesn’t specifically praise NC by name. Okay, throw the 4th one out. You still have 3 of approval and encouragement.
I could go on but I think I’ve made the point that Akins’ response was not serious or convincing and was, in fact, a bit laughable and lightweight.



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Tom Haessler

posted January 7, 2006 at 12:23 pm


Amen, Gail, Amen.



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dymphna

posted January 7, 2006 at 12:29 pm


Jimmy Akin can sometimes be very tiresome but I thought he was on point here and I am amazed at how arrogant and defiant the NeoCat spokesmen seem to be.
The NeoCats are going to have to change, whether they like it or not. I’m sure that most people in the parishes looked at them and thought that it was nice that young people were coming to church. After reading about their masses, seeing photos and reading Gennarini’s responses I think a lot of people are going to think twice about welcoming the movement. I don’t want any part of a group that thinks it’s okay that treats the Divine like a cocktail party apetizer.



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elmo

posted January 7, 2006 at 1:02 pm


Maybe Gennarini wasn’t arrogant but merely defensive and angry about lies being printed about the NCW in the first place, and these lies then being accepted at face value by the American media and St. Blogs.
Here’s part of what I wrote on Akins blog:
To me, Gennarini made the following points:
1. That Sandro Magister’s article contains falsehoods (i.e., the loaf of bread for Mass, the “secret” liturgies”, lay homilies)If Magister can’t get easily verified information correct, how could he be trusted with information that has not been verified, i.e., the “leaked” letter.
2. Initial reports were highly negative all but sneering at the NCW. (“Play time is over” for example) another factor weighing against Magister as an impartial recorder of the facts.
3. The tone of Magister’s piece implies that the Vatican itself is displeased with the Way, an implication not supported by the puported letter.
This indicates that Magister’s article was propaganda and if he, or the person feeding this information to him, was counting on the charity-challenged Faithful Conservative Catholics [TM] to pounce all over the story like starving jackals — well his calculations proved to be correct.
By the way, to those who are wondering whether the NCW will obey the Vatican. Of course, they will. They’ve been obeying for 40 years and they will continue to do so.



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Joe

posted January 7, 2006 at 2:43 pm


Who is Sandro Magister? Seriously. Does anyone know his background? Is he a convert? How old is he? How is he employed? Why does Akins rise to his defense? A defense that is unquestioning until challenged and then lame and full of quibbling.



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Joe

posted January 7, 2006 at 2:44 pm


Who is Sandro Magister? Seriously. Does anyone know his background? Is he a convert? How old is he? How is he employed? Why does Akins rise to his defense?



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Fred K.

posted January 7, 2006 at 4:12 pm


I myself have wondered many times about the politics of Magister and his publication, especially because he has been know to print rumors as fact.



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RC

posted January 7, 2006 at 8:24 pm


Jimmy’s on target in most of his points.
Whether Gennarini realizes it or not, his statement that lay people never gave homilies in place of priests comes across as an equivocation.
The laymen’s commentaries are called “resonances”, not a homily, right? and they’re offered in addition to the priest’s homily. (They might even be longer than the priest’s homily.) So Gennarini’s statement really doesn’t deny anything: it doesn’t address the concern that the interventions by lay teachers were too common or too prominent, relative to the priest’s homily.
Mr. Gennarini’s rap against Sandro Magister is beside the point, too, inasmuch as there are criticisms from other sources: e.g., the late Thomist Zoffoli, a <a href=" former”>http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_1997/features_nov97.html“>former NC seminarian, the psychologist Nicolas, and the Diocese of Clifton in England.



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Julia

posted January 8, 2006 at 1:58 pm


If you go back and look at all the articles Magister has at “chiesa” on topics such as Vatican II and liturgy, he does not at all seem to be a lefty as charged by Gannarini. As another recent thread mentions, the surprisin thing is that his column is published by a left-leaning publication while he appears to be a big supporter of JPII and BXVI and against the “spirit of VII” gang.



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Robert Duncan

posted January 8, 2006 at 4:23 pm


I really don’t have too much of an opinion, other than this..in our local parishes here in Madrid there are neocat meetings, masses, etc. And I’ve never heard anybody complain about them, nor claim that they are a separate church. I don’t have a lot of experience with Neocats, but while they seem a bit charismatic, they also seem quite orthodox toward Pope, Church, etc.
I saw an interview a while back with Kiko, and I found something interesting that he said, that their movement is designed to help people “relive” or “live” to the fullest their baptism.
I thot that was an interesting idea.
Finally, the other day I found a site and posted on my blog, about a church in Australia that is complaining about Pell placing Neocat priests in their parish. The stuff is quite scandalous that they say. Reading it more though, I get the impression that they are upset because the Neocat priests are too orthodox! Here’s the link.
http://www.speroforum.com/blog/entry.asp?ENTRY_ID=463
Cheers



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mark j

posted January 8, 2006 at 4:36 pm


“The clincher is that 3 statements by B16 over a period of years praising the NeoCatechumenal services is NOT SUFFICIENT for Akins.”
I have to agree with JImmy Akin on this point. The fact that Pope Benedict has made three positive comments (very short and fairly generic positive comments, in my opinion), does not imply that the Pope approves every detail of the NCW, and certainly does not imply that there are no liturgical abuses.



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ray

posted January 8, 2006 at 5:41 pm


how about a fact that when Ratzinger was bishop of Munich, he initiated the Neocatechumenal way in his diocese. In the same way that John Paul II did when he was bishop of Krakow. Does that show some support for the Neocatechumenal way?
ray



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Julia

posted January 8, 2006 at 7:44 pm


I recommend that you check out the link on RC’s post about an official Enquiry in the Diocese of Clifton in England concerning the NC. It’s extremely thorough and lengthy, but I cam away with a scary view of the NC’s attempt to take over 3 parishes in that diocese and the parish priests’ control by the intinerant catechizers as opposed to their bishop. Sometimes good things can spin out of control. It sounds like this Kiko is developing a personality cult. Browse through it – about 2/3 of the way through it there is a description of their Liturgy. It is secretive and doors are locked keeping out non-NC because members confess deep, daark secrets in the period of time right before the Gospel. The site also quotes from a paper by Kiko that includes his statement that in NC there is no distinction between laity, priests, bishops, monks, etc. The catechizing is all oral and there is nothing in writing that the NC was able to give the bishop to show what they were teaching.
I dunno.



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Gail

posted January 8, 2006 at 11:19 pm


“does not imply that the Pope approves every detail of the NCW”
The Pope probably doesn’t approve every detail of the liturgy as practiced in most places. I haven’t seen any citations of criticism by the Pope of the NeoCats, only those three recognizing them with appreciation.



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jdh

posted January 13, 2006 at 8:57 am


Well it looks like the Pope HAS ‘had the final word on all this – although possibly not in the way that Mr Magister or a countless number of blogs might say.
This are his own words, spoken to 10,000 ‘neocats’ in the Paul VI Hall yesterday, when he sent out 200 missionary families:
“[To] help the Neocatechumenal Way to be even more incisive in its evangelizing action in communion with the whole People of God, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments has recently imparted to you, in my name, some norms concerning the Eucharistic celebration.
“Thanks to faithful adherence to all the directives of the Church you will make your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of each parish. And in this way the Lord will continue to bless you with abundant pastoral fruits.”
It seems to me that after reading this, we can see the spirit in which the letter was sent very clearly.



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jdh

posted January 13, 2006 at 8:57 am


Well it looks like the Pope HAS ‘had the final word on all this – although possibly not in the way that Mr Magister or a countless number of blogs might say.
This are his own words, spoken to 10,000 ‘neocats’ in the Paul VI Hall yesterday, when he sent out 200 missionary families:
“[To] help the Neocatechumenal Way to be even more incisive in its evangelizing action in communion with the whole People of God, the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Sacraments has recently imparted to you, in my name, some norms concerning the Eucharistic celebration.
“Thanks to faithful adherence to all the directives of the Church you will make your apostolate even more effective, in harmony and full communion with the Pope and the pastors of each parish. And in this way the Lord will continue to bless you with abundant pastoral fruits.”
It seems to me that after reading this, we can see the spirit in which the letter was sent very clearly.



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Kathie

posted September 14, 2006 at 10:42 am


Sandro Magister treats the NCW the same way Dan Brow treats Opus Dei. Fiction truely is more interesting than fact (secret meetings, large loaves of bread, punch bowl of the precious blood passed from hand to hand – PLEASE!!!) It’s too bad Jimmy Akins didn’t research this better before he passed along a terrible discredit to a good lay apostolate. Oh, and by the way, Magister doesn’t like Opus Dei either!



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A. Williams

posted February 9, 2007 at 9:01 am


I have not found ONE memeber of the NCW where I live that knows anything about the Liturgical norms of the Catholic Church! And in the last 3 years I have attended about 150 NCW masses with my wife who belongs to this group.
What some posters have said about the NCW being completely approved by Rome is FALSE. The NCW must CHANGE in almost countless ways, to conform to Church liturgical laws and ‘norms’.
One of the worst abuses is their ‘echo’s’..or ‘lay testamonies’.. which they will try to defend in every way. But in the Arinze Letter it clearly says:
“Careful attention must be paid to the instruction “Redemptionis Sacramentum”, n. 74.”
and here is what RS says:
[74.] If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a Church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,[156] nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.)
This is only 1 abuse!! What about the priests that commonly preach seated at their chairs? No offeratory gifts presented at the Mass, but brought by the Servers from the Sanctuary? Servers distributing Communion? Dancing around the alter at the Closing hymn? Music played during the priests Eucharistic Prayer? Using only Eucharistic Prayer#2? Flowers on the Alter? Priests don’t receive communion at the Altar, but seated? etc..etc.. etc..
The NCW needs to follow the teachings of the Church! This is why the Vatican insisted in the first instruction of this letter:
“In the celebration of the Holy Mass, the Neocatechumenal Way shall accept and follow the liturgical books approved by the Church, without omitting or adding anything.”
Please NCW members..don’t preach about how virtuous your group is UNTIL you have decided to obey these instructions of the Holy See! And STOP twisting these instructions to serve your OWN needs! OBEY…”without omitting or adding ANYTHING!!
…then indeed you will be FAITHFUL Catholics! Until then, just a rebellious fringe group..like the countless others out there!
—- awlms



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TouppyVog

posted September 1, 2007 at 12:36 pm

Veddelddourgy

posted September 13, 2007 at 7:28 am

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