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Still more from Carey

posted by awelborn

David at the Catholic Report has spoken both with the pastor of the Shrine of Our Lady of Consolation and the police chief of Carey,OH, and presents their conflicting reports of what happened at the Assumption Day Riots.



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Patrick Rothwell

posted August 25, 2005 at 10:50 am


Whatever the case, I doubt that the street preachers called Mary a whore. They probably called the Church of Rome the “Whore of Babylon” and the Chaldeans, blissfully unaware of kook fundamentalist-speak, thought they were speaking of Mary. What we have here is failure to communicate.



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Patrick Rothwell

posted August 25, 2005 at 10:53 am


And do visit the website of the street preachers. It’s plain fascinating nuttery. And to think that I’ve missed their several trips to DC in the last few years. Perhaps that’s all for the best, as hearing peacenicks and abortion activists in one ear and street preachers in the other ear would surely drive me into a padded cell.



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Dave Hartline

posted August 25, 2005 at 10:59 am


Patrick:
Brother Jeffrey, of the Shrine, who heard the comment is not Chaldean. He’s from the good old USA. I think the Donegalexpress.net website had it right. Catholics seems to fall under the title of “Battered Wife Ecumenicalism.” We somehow think that we must have done something to deserve the hassle and hardship we sometimes receive.



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Al DelG

posted August 25, 2005 at 11:05 am


I have to wonder what sort of religious bias Chief Yingling is bringing into the issue in reflexively taking the side of the street preachers. It would seem to me that the everyone involved by now would have realized the violent reaction that the street preachers hope to provoke. The legitimacy of restricting “fighting words” from free speech rights is well established and should be utilized to deny their presence.



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tk

posted August 25, 2005 at 11:08 am


Chief Yingling strikes me as an anti-arab, anti-urban, hmm racist.



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Eileen R

posted August 25, 2005 at 12:02 pm


The Catholic young people there probably did get out of hand, but that chief’s answers are so bloody pat that it’s not hard to suspect a pro-Protestant bias.



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Patrick Rothwell

posted August 25, 2005 at 1:51 pm


I’m inclined to believe Chief Yingling. These street preachers are fundamentalists and as such, would believe in the Virgin Birth. Hence, I don’t think it’s credible that they would call Mary a whore. I do believe that they would throw the word “whore” around because it seems to be one of their favorite words along with “fornicator.”
And the Chief is correct that the street preachers have the right to make their points on the sidewalk and pass out fliers. No matter how obnoxious or insulting the preaching is, unless they get literally in your face and shout personal insults, you won’t be able to convict them of anything, including incitement or uttering “fighting words.” That also explains why Fred Phelps and his merry band of “fag-haters” aren’t serving long prison sentences.
And as far as “Battered Wife Ecumenicalism” goes, well that is just plain silly.



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Dave Hartline

posted August 25, 2005 at 2:23 pm


Patrick:
Chief Yingling wasn’t at that particular place to hear if the Street Preachers did call Mary a whore. Am I correct in hearing you say, that you are taking the word of the Street Preachers over the word of Brother Jeffrey, the Retreat Leader of the Shrine. Patrick, people come from all over the midwest, the country for that matter, to Carey. What in God’s name would he make that up for. Again, today on my website catholicreport.org he verified to me what he heard. Here’s his quote, “Mr. Hartline I am quite certain of what I saw and heard.” You scoff at the Donegalexpress.net for using the term “Battered Wife Ecumenicalism” and yet you don’t take Brother Jeffrey’s word over that of the Street Preachers, who tell you that you are going to hell. I am all for Ecumenicalism, for a Catholic, I have a fair amount of Protestant books in my bookshelf by the likes of C.S. Lewis, TD Jakes, Charles Stanley etc. However, I still put more stock in Brother Jeffrey’s words than in those of people who tell me I am hellbound.



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chris K

posted August 25, 2005 at 2:38 pm


Well, if the chief keeps his same philosophy of protesters’ rights; free on the sidewalk and free to hand out pamphlets, someone should rent him for an abortion clinic protest. But somehow my gut tells me there’d be a different story re: those kinds of protesters.



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Chris

posted August 25, 2005 at 2:39 pm


I do wonder at the dear chief’s religious affiliation …



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Chris

posted August 25, 2005 at 2:40 pm


Next year, have some Catholics bring camcorders, too, please?



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chris K

posted August 25, 2005 at 2:59 pm


Chief Yingling It was a full-blown riot. Mr Hartline picture in your head what you think happened and magnify it 10x that is how bad it was.
It was awful: I didn’t know what was going to happen.

Oooh! Wow! That sounds terrible, Chief.
Dave Hartline I understand there were arrests made and some injuries. How many street preachers and how many in the procession were injured.
Chief Yingling I don’t think there were any street preachers struck or injured. I had some officers struck though.

Not even fisticuffs? Oooookay! Missed your donut time, huh??
Sorry, couldn’t resist. I live in a small town and, well, guess my imagination is biased.



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chris K

posted August 25, 2005 at 3:05 pm


These street preachers are fundamentalists and as such, would believe in the Virgin Birth. Hence, I don’t think it’s credible that they would call Mary a whore.
Well, according to these guys the Catholic Mary ain’t the Mary of the gospels….so, perhaps those nasty labels are fine and dandy with their “fundamentalist” outlook there. See ya in hell! But if the preacher types aren’t there, it just may seem like heaven!



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Al DelG

posted August 25, 2005 at 3:29 pm


Regarding “Fighting Words” – a legal definition.
The First Amendment doctrine that holds that certain utterances are not constitutionally protected as free speech if they are inherently likely to provoke a violent response from the audience. N.A.A.C.P. v. Clairborne Hardware Co., Miss., 458 U.S. 886, 102 S.Ct. 3409, 73 L.Ed.2d 1215 (1982). Words which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace, having direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the persons to whom, individually, remark is addressed. The test is what persons of common intelligence would understand to be words likely to cause an average addressee to fight. City of Seattle v. Camby, 104 Wash.2d 49, 701 P.2d 499, 500.
The “freedom of speech” protected by the Constitution is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances and there are well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which does not raise any constitutional problem, including the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or “fighting words” which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031.
SOURCE: Black’s Law Dictionary, Sixth Edition
Chaplinsky vs. New Hampshire was decided by the Supreme Court in 1942. Seems to me it would apply here.



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Caroline

posted August 25, 2005 at 3:42 pm


Whoever started the fracas and whatever the provocation, is it not our busines to “turn the other cheek?”



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Patrick Rothwell

posted August 25, 2005 at 3:45 pm


“Am I correct in hearing you say, that you are taking the word of the Street Preachers over the word of Brother Jeffrey, the Retreat Leader of the Shrine.”
Yes.



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Teresa

posted August 25, 2005 at 11:02 pm


I’ve heard us (Catholics) being referred to as the “Whore of Babylon” before, but my shear ignorance protects me from getting terribly insulted by it. I feel it’s akin to being called the “Sluts of Seattle.” I know we call the Church “she,” so of course someone who hates us would turn that into “whore,” but why Babylon? (Warning: I was catechized in the 70′s, so hence my ignorance on all things except collages).



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Anna

posted August 26, 2005 at 4:40 am


Teresa,
The imagery that you are asking about, ie the “Whore of Babylon” comes from the book Revelation to John. In the 17th chapter, that language is used, to describe an enemy of Jesus (and the Church). It talks about her being drunk with the blood of martyrs.
Many of the fundamentalist types of Christians have been taught that this refers to the Catholic Church.
The street preachers definitely fall into that category.



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Der Tommissar

posted August 26, 2005 at 10:55 am


Whatever the case, I doubt that the street preachers called Mary a whore.
You can have your doubts, and that’s grand and all, but I think you’re wrong.
I’ve personally had Protestants tell me the Blessed Virgin is some B*. So you’re telling me “whore” wouldn’t be said?
Really?
Then again, they are Evangelical Protestants. They don’t do wrong. It’s just us Catholics.



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