Via Media

Via Media


Juventutem

posted by awelborn

An article on the gathering of traditionalist youth at WYD, which includes, as Papabile points out, a Missa Brevis composed in memory of John Paul II by…John Tavener. How fascinating – I’d love to hear that, and I hope Tavener’s work gets recorded at some point.



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Andrew

posted August 18, 2005 at 9:36 am


Nice to see Tavener is an admirer of JP2. In the meantime it will be interesting to see if there is any backlash from certain factions within Orthodoxy. After all one cannot forget the irrational protests in Greece when the Pope visited.



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hieronymus

posted August 18, 2005 at 9:44 am


Wonderful… I loved his Missa Corona Spinea the first time I heard it sung, and am glad to see that nasty rumor of him abandoning “popish ditties” finally put to rest.
…oh wait. You said Joh Tavener. He’s good too, I guess.



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Santiago

posted August 18, 2005 at 10:06 am


Mrs Welborn,
Could you please post about the *other* groups present at WYD? Like CL perhaps? http://www.clonline.org ? (I don’t know if you have–perhaps I missed it).
Regards,



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David Kubiak

posted August 18, 2005 at 10:06 am


This piece is not bad, but it perpetuates the idea that the old rite is rare and practically celebrated in secret. When will the popular press catch on to the fact that the classical Roman rite is thriving, is particularly attractive to sensitive young people, and that the traditionalist seminaries are full to bursting. If WYD is held in Europe in twenty years old rite priests will far outnumber new if present trends continue.
To those who may wonder, the title of this group derives from the Psalm which begin the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar:
“Introibo ad altare Dei/Ad Deum qui laetificat juventutem meam.”
“I will go up to the altar of God/To God who makes joyful my youth.”
Rather an improvement on “Good mornin’ folks, how ya doin’ today?”
On a related note, I was very surprised recently to read the late Pope’s recollection of his episcopal consecration, where he says that “the ceremonies then were richer than those current today.”



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Jason

posted August 18, 2005 at 10:16 am


“If it would foster devotion in many believers and encourage respect for the piety of particular Catholic groups, I would personally support a return to the ancient situation, i.e., to a certain Liturgical pluralism. Provided, of course, that the legitimate character of the reformed rites was emphatically affirmed, and that there was a clear delineation of the extent and nature of such an exception permitting the celebration of the pre-conciliar liturgy. (“The Ratzinger Report”, pgs 124-125)



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Tim Ferguson

posted August 18, 2005 at 10:30 am


Wasn’t Benedict consecrated as a bishop in 1977? Has there been any revision of the rite since then?



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Celine

posted August 18, 2005 at 10:51 am


Did any American traditionalist kids go? From their publications here (e.g., The Remnant and Catholic Family News), they despised the WYDs of the past on account of the (they claimed) vulgar, popular music and lax or immoral clothing/life-styles and attitudes of the youth attending.



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hieronymus

posted August 18, 2005 at 11:01 am


Celine, those publications don’t speak for American traditionalists.



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Kevin Miller

posted August 18, 2005 at 11:35 am


Tim F: “the late Pope” = JPII (ordained bishop in 1958), not BXVI.
David K: What JPII actually says is “even richer” – the full sentence is “I constantly think of that great ceremony (in those days the Liturgy was even richer than it is today) and I remember every single person who took part” (Rise, Let Us Be On Our Way, p. 23; cf. also his further comments about the changes in the liturgy on pp. 60ff). This is a subtle, but significant, difference.



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reluctant penitent

posted August 18, 2005 at 11:44 am


Are you sure it was not composed by the other more talented John Taverner, after having been impressed by JPII in heaven?



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Kevin Miller

posted August 18, 2005 at 12:17 pm


Oh, two other things.
1. I see that the Juventutem site linked by Papabile advertises the “World premiere” of the Tavener Mass. Isn’t “premiere” generally something that a show does? So much, I think, for the idea that “Mass as show” is something that only happens with the (post-)conciliar revisions.
2. Yes, Ps. 43(42) is better than “Good mornin’ folks, how ya doin’ today?” Of course, however, the latter is not what the revised Missal prescribes, so the comparison doesn’t entirely work.



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A. Noël

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:16 pm


I enjoyed the article, but have another quibble with its wording:
“A new movement called Juventutem – Latin for ‘youth’, its main constituency – organised the Latin Masses and other traditional devotions here, the first time they have featured among the modern rites that most young Catholics prefer.”
“Most” young Catholics cannot be said to “prefer” modern rites over something they’ve never experienced. It’s great Juventutem is there and getting press coverage.



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julian

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:21 pm


David K.: Why should the popular press give the “classical Roman rite” any weight when they consider the Church designed by Paul VI to be hopelessly reactionary?
While I found the piece to be more than slightly backhanded toward the Latin Mass, it at least lets people know that there is more than enough devotion to the elder rite among the youth. This idea of a few slightly kooky holdouts against the “reforms” of the Second Vatican Council should be cast aside as the tripe that it is.



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Celine

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:24 pm


hieronymous:
If Catholic Family News or The Remnant (or Latin Mass?) don’t speak for American traditionalists, who or what does? Every single person I know (and I know several) who self-identifies as a traditionalist also identifies with one or the other of these publications.
Anyway, my main question is: Do American traditionalists (whoever speaks for them) participate in WYD? If so, who organizes/represents them? If not, why not?



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Mark C.

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:31 pm


The Latin Mass is a much more mainstream publication than The Remnant or Catholic Family News. There undoubtedly are American traditionalists at WYD as part of Juventutem through the Priestly Fraternity of Saint Peter, which has about 30 North American apostolates. Other “mainstream” traditionalist voices would include the Institute of Christ the King and Una Voce America.



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Dan Crawford

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:51 pm


Perhaps all those who pine for the Latin Mass might want to address the question: Would they be less critical of the vernacular if the the “old texts” had been kept in the revised rite and translated? Somehow I do not think they would be less critical.
The “common” texts of the Tridentine Mass could have been more felicitously translated no doubt, and should have been. The very restricted selections of Scriptural selections for the Proper texts in the Tridentine Mass were a deficiency. That we now have a three year lectionary is a great blessing to the Church. And there is so much richness in the liturgical history and tradition of the Church that could have been tapped in the Tridentine reform but wasn’t. Some of it has made its way into the Vatican II revision.
What we have now is not reflective of the great liturgical riches in the church, but the Tridentine rite didn’t reflect that richness either. Just because something is said in Latin doesn’t make it rich or deep – especially if many people do not understand what it means.
Take the rich content of the liturgy and translate it richly. Keep the chant and learn how to adapt it to the rhythms and accents of English, Spanish, Italian, German, etc. And by all means,keep the option of Latin liturgies. Let monasteries continue to do the Office in Latin. Let Latin be the language of celebration in the Vatican, but don’t constantly bad mouth the vernacular and suggest that somehow what is celebrated every Sunday in churches throughout the world is something less than good because it isn’t in Latin. After a while that argument just gets tiresome.



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hieronymus

posted August 18, 2005 at 1:53 pm


Well, I self-identify as a traditionalist (although I may not fit the stereotype that well) and I wouldn’t use those rags to mop my floor, much less read them. They speak for conspiracy-theorists and cranks who happen to be traditionalists (and admittedly, traditionalists have relatively high proportions of both), but that’s all.
As for who actually “speaks” for American traditionalists… well, nobody really. The magazines and organizations and priestly societies are pretty much autonomous.
To answer your question – yes, Americans are participating in Juventutum. And I imagine that many trads regard kindly the idea of World Youth Day, but find much of the vulgar music and lax clothing at the event distateful. I see nothing wrong with that.



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hieronymus

posted August 18, 2005 at 2:12 pm


Would they be less critical of the vernacular if the the “old texts” had been kept in the revised rite and translated?
Yes, I would. That would still have been the Roman Mass, not a novelty.
I like the expanded lectionary too, and the idea of reading the prophecy, lesson, and Gospel in English. I like most of the ideas in Sacrosanctum Consilium. But none of them necessitated a new and inferior order of Mass, to say nothing of practices legitimized since.



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reluctant penitent

posted August 18, 2005 at 2:51 pm


‘Well, I self-identify as a traditionalist (although I may not fit the stereotype that well) and I wouldn’t use those rags to mop my floor’
I second hieronymus’ statement. There is no necessary connection between traditionalism and loony conspiracy theories, often peppered generously with ‘neocon’ and ‘Israel’ (though this may not be the kind of looniness that hieronimus had in mind).
hieronymus, your posts are as impressive as your art. And, just to eliminate all ambiguity from that statement, let me say that I think that your art is very impressive.



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Boniface McInnes

posted August 18, 2005 at 4:52 pm


Mr. Crawford,
I find this argument that the Novus Ordo Missae has more Scripture than the Tridentine Mass to be tiresome also. SInce I’ve never made the argument you cite, could you kindly refrain from yours?
In the Novus Ordo Missae, expanded lectionary and all, we find a Mass all but stripped of the Psalms in both the Ordinary (what you identify as “common, I think) and Propers. Divesting our worship of the richness of Jewish song seems, to me at least, a big stumbling block to reaching out to our elder brothers.
And yes, if the Mass has been reformed as Vatican II mandated, instead of foisting an inorganic creation on us, I’d be less critical. And I might even attend my territorial parish instead of driving 95 miles each way every Sunday.
Assuming all the other, shall we say, “idiosyncracies” there were eradicated as well.



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Tim Ferguson

posted August 18, 2005 at 4:53 pm


Dan,
The unitive (in both time and space) aspect of the Latin language would not be expressed if the celebration of Mass in Latin were reserved to the Vatican – everyone should have an opportunity (and be encouraged to participate) to celebrate the Mass in the time-honored language of our Rite. Thankfully, that can and should be done in every diocese in both the normative rite and the Tridentine Rite.
The chief criticism of most of those who objected to the 1970 Missal, from what I’ve heard, is not so much the language of it, but the wholesale restructuring of the Mass. The Mass is more than just the texts in the book. So, if the texts had been preserved, and faithfully translated, but reorganized and squeezed into the ritual of the 1970 Missal yes, there probably would have been the same criticism of it.
(I write this not as someone who objects to the normative Mass, but who feels my growth in grace is fed by participation in both Rites).



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reluctant penitent

posted August 18, 2005 at 8:31 pm


The need for all Catholics to learn at least some basic prayers and responses to the Mass in Latin was very much in evidence at WYD today. Many of the young were not able to pray the Pater Noster and Ave Maria along with the Pope. Unfortunately there are still far too many Priests who mock the bad old days when everything was in Latin and there’s a whole generation (45+ year old approximately) who think that the use of Latin in the Church is something shameful. Younger people seem much more receptive to the language.



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julian

posted August 18, 2005 at 8:37 pm


I honestly don’t think that the use of Latin is intended to impart any extraordinary gravity, but more to emphasize the universal nature of the Church.
More to the point, though: Neither Paul VI’s “Missale Romanum” nor the Council’s “Sacrosanctum Concilium” authorized, in letter or spirit, the wholesale reconstruction of the Mass. That reconstruction, from whole cloth, of the Mass is where most traditionalists have their problems. Mine are elsewhere for the record, with the lack of firm rubrics and episcopal laissez-faire toward violations of even the most liberal rubrics.



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David Kubiak

posted August 19, 2005 at 12:33 am


Let me “third” hieronymous’ comments on “the rags”. It may interest people to know that the “Remnant” is prohibited reading for the seminarians of the Fraternity of St. Peter, and wisely so.
I can appreciate the confusion “ordinary” Catholics have with these groups and sub-groups, but if you travel in trad. circles long enough you can tell after five minutes of conversation whether somebody has “mens nostra”, or is, as Fr. Devillers says best with his French accent, “a wacko”.



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