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How do you say “heh” in German?

posted by awelborn

Because this deserves it: Cologne Cardinal on WYD, Kung, and others

In an in interview on the preparations for World Youth Day, the hosting archbishop, Cardinal Joachim Meisner of Cologne, said the event is a gathering for young people, not for “the people of yesterday” such as dissident theologians Eugen Drewermann or Hans Küng.

In an interview granted to the Bonn newspaper General-Anzeiger, Cardinal Meisner noted that Hans Küng and Eugen Drewermann are not welcome at the event.  “The entire event is oriented to be an encounter for young people and not for ‘seniors’,” he said.

“There is nothing for them (Küng and Drewermann) here, as young people are not interested in the silliness they fostered for so long.  We don’t need any Drewermann or Küng or anything else stale at WYD,” Cardinal Meisner added.

Both Drewermann and Küng have criticized WYD, calling it “triumphalism,” and a dissident group has hinted it might bring both theologians to a parallel event.

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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:14 am


Seriously – anybody – who on earth is Eugen Drewermann?



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:16 am


“Wir kichern” — as applied to Hans Küng and Eugen Drewermann, we are “chuckling, snickering or cackling” — any of these will do!



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:20 am


Bruce, a little synopsis of one of Hans Küng’s soul mates:
“Eugen Drewermann was born in Bergkamen (Dortmund, Germany) in 1940. He is a German Catholic theologian, a psychotherapist, an author and the most renowned representative of exegesis on depth psychology. Drewermann studied philosophy and theology. In 1972 he started out as priest of the Paderborn student parish and was then appointed parish priest of the Sankt-Georgs-Kirche. At the same time he worked as psychotherapist and since 1979 has lectured on religious history and dogmatics at the Catholic Theological Faculty in Paderborn.
Influenced by Carl Gustav Jung, Drewermann interprets biblical texts on the basis of depth psychology, as illustrated in his book “Tiefenpsychologie und Exegese” (1988). This book led to a conflict with the official Catholic Church. On 1 October, 1991, the archbischop of the Paderborn, Johannes Joachim Degenhardt, denied Drewermann the parochial authorization to teach and preach and started legal procedures against him within ecclesiastical jurisdiction.
Drewermann has since worked as a free-lance author. He is a welcome guest in television talk shows and is invited to lecture throughout Germany. Drewermann shows a keen interest in fairy tales, especially in the fairy tales of the Brothers Grimm. He interprets these using depth psychology and religious philosophy.”
It’s good he has a keen interest in fairy tales. Might serve him well in a future post.
Hooray for Cardinal Meisner. Hope Cardinal Walter Kaspar isn’t choking on his bratwurst.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:27 am


Thank you, Christine. A Jungian…I might have known. All part of this 70s revival were having to endure, like ABBA.



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:32 am


Ooooooooh — ABBA — when I’m trying to annoy my husband the first thing I do is sing several stanzas of “Dancing Queen” over — and over — and over. Usually while we’re in the car so he’s helpless to do anything about it.
Sigh. Those were the days!! Been there, done that.



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:32 am


I cannot imagine a more devastating and more appropriate reply to the ‘triumphalism’ comment.



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Cheryl

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:37 am


OK, I’m clearly out of touch, but what the heck do they mean by “triumphalism”?
I would hate to have to sign up for the “parallel event” to find out (although there is probably more than enough grey in my hair to qualify for admission ;-)



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Veronica

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:44 am


“All part of this 70s revival were having to endure, like ABBA.”
ROTFL. Thanks, that made my day! :)
Ugh, I can still hear the lyrics from “Chiquitita” inside my head, over and over again… somebody help me!



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hieronymus

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:47 am


I hope whoever-they-are hosts the “parallel event”, so someone can photograph the two, and compare the size, age, and joyfulness of each’s attendance.



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Dorian Speed

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:48 am


What does this sentence mean:
“Drewermann interprets biblical texts on the basis of depth psychology, as illustrated in his book “Tiefenpsychologie und Exegese” (1988). ”
Signed,
Doofus



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:48 am


It’s my sick sense of humor, but wouldn’t you just *love* to be at that “parallel event”? In the sanctuary, Fr. Groovy holds forth on the Good Old Days. In the portable out back Sr. Orbis Rotunda thunderingly demonstrates the latest liturgical dance steps to four people of indeterminate gender with iron grey hair and sensible shoes. Somebody with a guitar forlornly sings “We Shall Overcome” out on the Church steps while the two teens who were forced to come by their Mom (an embittered liturgist from St. Joan’s in Minneapolis) hold up their lighters.
What a freakin’ *BLAST*!



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Michael Kremer

posted August 10, 2005 at 11:56 am


The OED defines triumphalism this way:
“The sense of pride (often linked with ostentation) in the rightness and achievements of one’s Church (used pejoratively).”
Triumphalism (so understood) is seen (by those who object to it) as an obstacle to ecumenism, as lacking in humility, etc. Compare the reactions to “Dominus Jesus”. (I am not endorsing these reactions, nor the charge of triumphalism against WYD.)



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:03 pm


Mark, please!!! To imply that St. Joan’s — known for their joyful and optimistic parish milieu –would harbor any EMBITTERED liturgists is truly reprehensible (grin, grin)!!



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cathy

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:16 pm


Do you think St. Joan would consider Dancing Queen by ABBA appropriate liturgical music?
Just trying to tie some of the comments together;-)



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TT

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:18 pm


Now this is really embarrassing, but since others here have found the courage to ask dumb questions, I’ll ask one that has hunted me for months: what on earth is “heh?”



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Good Samaritan #1

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:30 pm


open book

Link: open book. Very informative blog! Thank you.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:34 pm


Christine: Please seek help (though not from a Jungian). My wife is like you, only worse. Her weapon of choice is – I’m getting a headache just typing this – the…gasp…BeeGees!



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Dorian Speed

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:36 pm


Now, TT, waitasecondhere…
Did you just say I asked a dumb question?
I thought there was no such thing as a dumb question, just dumb people who ask questions…wait…
I have traditionally interpreted “heh” as a brief, slightly guttural, laugh. Sort of like the phonetic spelling of “LOL.” But I was probably wrong about that, being a person who asks dumb questions.
Wrathful Doofus



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:46 pm


Oh no, no — Bruce, what have you done — you’ve reawakened my latent efforts at “Stayin’ Alive.”
My compliments to your wife on her sound instincts!
And I see that Doofus has morphed into “Wrathful Doofus” — what have we wrought???!!!
I also think “Dancing Queen” would be entirely appropriate for the liturgical toetapping of the “parallel” event at WYD. Me, being a faithfully ethnic German, I’d love to show up in some ethnic dress and an accordian — I’d gladly accompany the “parallel” musical offerings!



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Dad29

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:54 pm


OK, Christine, you get the accordion…
and I’ll get the Depends franchise at the “alternative” convention.
Shouldn’t take more than a small box-truckload—attendance will be limited due to geriatric constraints on travel.



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Saganashkee

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:55 pm


Aww come on – let’s leave poor ABBA alone. My daughters were quickly growing up in the late 70s and by the time Dancing Queen came along we also got the Eagles and Hotel California – 2 ends of the spectrum but for my money both are still great songs in their own right.



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Rod Dreher

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:55 pm


Cheryl: OK, I’m clearly out of touch, but what the heck do they mean by “triumphalism”?
The obnoxious and intolerable conviction that the Catholic Church teaches truth. These people will not be happy until and unless Catholics apologize and self-loathe themselves out of existence.



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Tim Ferguson

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:55 pm


I’ve always taken “heh” as one of those involuntary laughs that come out at inappropriate moments (such as the schaudenfreude of realizing that Hans Kung is yesterday’s news).
“meh” is a shrug of the shoulders with a slightly negative connotation (such as arises when discussing whether Hilary Clinton or John Kerry would make a better president.)
“eh” as a pure shrug with no preference indicated, unless followed by a question mark, “eh?” then it’s a sign that the typist is either hearing impaired and needs clarification, or is Canadian.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 12:58 pm


I see I have created a theological/ecclesiastical/cultural monster….How can I ever atone???? Oh, well, this is more fun than the e-mail I began drafting to Amy regarding an actual serious subject on another thread. How 70s of me….



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:04 pm


Dad29, you’re spot on! WYD here we come!! Bruce, “how 70s of me is acceptable” — you didn’t use the unforgiveable “I’m a 70s type of guy!”
It’s so refreshing to hear a Catholic hierarch finally name nonsense for what it is — NONSENSE! American bishops, are you paying attention?? Well — make that SOME American bishops.



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Tom Harmon

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:08 pm


Rod,
I wonder what sort of noise one makes when one self-loathes oneself out of existence. Maybe a sort of whimpering fizzel? A small pop?



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Terrence Berres

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:14 pm


heh: Schaedfreude as expressed by Glenn Reynolds at InstaPundit



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Tim Ferguson

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:18 pm


Tom, it sounds like this: “meh”
If only those who decry triumphalism would self-loathe themselves out of existence. I would shout out a happy, self-satisfied, schadenfreudical “heh!”



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:20 pm


Schadenfreude? The roots of that word mean “damage” and “joy” so it kinda implies happiness at another’s misfortune.
That sure could be another interpretation of “heh” in this context!!



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Rod Dreher

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:29 pm


Tom: I wonder what sort of noise one makes when one self-loathes oneself out of existence. Maybe a sort of whimpering fizzel? A small pop?
That sounds like the kind of question better answered by the late Douglas Adams in one of his “Hitchhiker’s Guide” books. Well, he’s dead, so I guess another way to ask the same question is: “If you could encapsulate the native European experience of the 21st century in a single sound, what would it be?”



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:32 pm


Schadenfreude: definition: what Bruce would feel if ABBA and the (remaining) BeeGees were swallowd alive (opposite of stayin’ alive) by the earth during a perforamance of MAMA MIA.



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Peggy

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:36 pm


I just learned at lunch how “schadenfreude” is to be pronounced. This is a widely used term on blogs, I’ve noticed. It’s like what “gravitas” was in the 2000 election cycle (in context of questioning whether W had any).
I had also wondered about the pronunciation of “heh”. Gosh, I’m learning so much more than Catholicism here. I mean, talk of ABBA & the BeeGees to boot. heh,heh!



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TT

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:41 pm


Thanks for setting me straight re “heh” guys!
As for “Hotel California,” what a dog! The Eagles covered the same ground much better with “Life in the Fast Lane.” Of course if one really wants to plumb the deaths of the So Cal soul, he can do no better than to listen yet again to the Doors “LA Woman.”
My choice for the music to inspire the elephantine splendor of the good sister’s dance: “Tiptoe Through the Tulips” as preformed by Tiny Tim. I know they would never do it, but I’d love to see it.



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Jason

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:42 pm


John Paul II on “triumphalism”:
“Undoubtedly one of the tendencies [the Church] displayed was to overcome what has been called triumphalism, about which there was frequent discussion during the Council. While it is right that, in accordance with the example of her Master, who is “humble in heart”, the Church also should have humility as her foundation, that she should have a critical sense with regard to all that goes to make up her human character and activity, and that she should always be very demanding on herself, nevertheless criticism too should have its just limits. Otherwise it ceases to be constructive and does not reveal truth, love and thankfulness for the grace in which we become sharers principally and fully in and through the Church. Furthermore such criticism does not express an attitude of service but rather a wish to direct the opinion of others in accordance with one’s own, which is at times spread abroad in too thoughtless a manner.” (Redemptor Hominis #4)
I thought it humorous that they proposed a gathering of theologians, not a parallel gathering of heterodox young people. They just don’t get it. The heart of the Church is with the massess of the faithful, not with a group of “learned” men who think they’re so darn important.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:52 pm


Speakin’ of 70s music (and I mean the 1770s, bada-bing!) – whatever happened to the idea of B-16 tinkling the ivories with a little Mozart at WYD?



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Nancy

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:55 pm


But….I know these WYD events are indeed wonderful. Full of energy.
But….where to they keep these thousands and thousands of young, energetic Catholics between WYD events? I go to a parish which doubles as a Newman Hall for a huge university, and there are way too many grey heads in the congregation considering the situation. Am I missing out somehow? Where are these kids, to energize the Church the rest of the time?



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Yurodivi

posted August 10, 2005 at 1:55 pm


Okay, from a German speaker, Schadenfreude (which should always be capitalized in German because it is a noun) means taking delight in another’s misfortunes. And yes, it does come from the words for “damage” and “joy.”
It’s probably a sin; that’s why it’s so easy to indulge the feeling.



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Sherry Weddell

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:00 pm


Hey – Dancing Queen. I know that song – they play it in the grocery store . . .



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Tim Ferguson

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:00 pm


From my experience kids, especially college kids, tend to avoid Newman parishes and campus ministries like the plague, because they tend to be rife with the shallow heterodoxy of the 60’s and 70’s. If you’re looking for the youth, check out the local parish that offers the Tridentine Mass, the one that has a chant schola, the one that has a solid young adult program, the one that has perpetual adoration, or the one that has an orthodox pastor who preaches on sin, grace and redemption rather than hugs, smiles and handshakes.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:02 pm


And while we’re at it…speaking of the 70s, has anybody noticed those stoopid glasses Hans Kung wears these days?



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Cornelius

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:07 pm


Note this: Cardinal Meisner also noted that the gathering in Cologne “will be the first to have the special presence of two Popes, one from above, and the other from here below in the world.”
So JPII (presumably the Pope “from above”), is the only past Vicar of Christ in heaven? JPII hasn’t even been beatified yet, for cryin’ out loud. What about . . errr . . . Saint Pius X? – now there’s a Pope we know is in heaven. Any bets that Cardinal Meisner means St. Pius X as the Pope “from above”?



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:07 pm


“Okay, from a German speaker,” — hey, me too! Or should I say “Ich auch!!” Although if I don’t soon make another trip to the land of my birth I’m in great danger of forgetting a lot of it!
The idea that I could be listening to Dancing Queen in the grocery store while mulling over the turnips and radishes is possibly the closest thing to heaven on earth I’ll ever experience!! (Sorry Bruce, the BeeGees just don’t quite make it!!)
I’d love to find a parish that offers a Tridentine Mass in my area whereby one doesn’t have to drive miles and miles to get to it. Unfortunately the inner urban areas seem to be the only places that have the stately churches that provide the proper environment for the Tridentine liturgy.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:12 pm


I repeat: Christine, seek help…it’s not too late…perhaps your family could arrange an intervention.



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:17 pm


Bruce, no doubt my family could arrange an intervention. But could they live with the results? A staid, sane, reasonable, rational me?
I don’t think so!



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Ian

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:21 pm


Amy,
“The entire event is oriented to be an encounter for young people and not for ‘seniors’,” he said.
Dosn’t this strike you as a little funny in a more general sense? I’m 30 yrs old and when we were at the Philly TOT last week, it seemed there were a lot of people there on the same order of age. Many of those I talked to there who were going to WYD were in their early 30s.
“Seniors” no, but it also strikes me as wishful thinking to consider myself as part of the “Catholic youth.” :)



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:21 pm


Now, on the other hand, a sidebar in the article states that ten U.S. bishops are going to offer catechesis at WYD. Wouldn’t ya love to be a fly on the wall listening to, say, Cardinal Mahony versus Cardinal George?



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:23 pm


Nancy:
They are in cold storage with the rest of the cattle awaiting the next time the Pope needs a lot of young people to truckle to his vanity.
On the bright side, the Youth at Cologne will get to see the Pope go into his daily trance and download the marching orders from the Holy Spirit for the bishops, priests and laity of the world. I sure hope the Holy Spirit will finally tell the Pope to order our priest to change the batteries on his cordless microphone.
I hear it’s quite spectacular when the guttural voice of God booms out of him and begins the dictation of “God’s Agenda for Saturday, August 13, 2005.” Kids should get quite thrill.



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hieronymus

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:27 pm


If you could encapsulate the native European experience of the 21st century in a single sound, what would it be?
“thoomp”?



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:34 pm


Christine: can’t it just be selective surgery, to fix you musically??? You know, the way they would have done it in some movie made in the 70s….
Ian: (and this was touched on my an earlier contributer, I think) a lot of “youth” hate “youth things” like youth groups, Masses, gatherings,etc. that are self-consiously youth-oriented. So, later on, you get the kind of phenomenan you saw at TOT.



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Jacqueline Y.

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:35 pm


Shame on the previous poster for impersonating the real Mark Shea! Your sarcasm doesn’t convey wit or even intelligence.



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John J. Simmins

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:39 pm


First of all, the comparison to ABBA was just plain cruel.
The parallel event (to pick up on that thread) will be populated by fire-plug shaped, post-menopausal women, in comfortable shoes, who were ordained on a boat by some guy who is in therapy for thinking he’s a bishop. In fact the whole thing will be on a boat (not a barq); a small, sad boat. Kung will be wearing glasses barrowed from Elton John. The theme will be: Defeatism, a reasonable alternative to triumphalism.



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:40 pm


“Christine: can’t it just be selective surgery, to fix you musically??? You know, the way they would have done it in some movie made in the 70s….”
Oh sure, sure. The ’70’s. It starts with fixing me musically — next thing I know I end up as one of the green wafers in Charlton Heston’s “Soylent Green.” You can’t fool me that easily!
I will sure be there in spirit with the young folk at Cologne — a very beautiful and historical city.



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 2:43 pm


It was the real me, Jacqueline. I was not, however, satirizing the Pope, but some of the absurd things that have recently been said about him, such as characterizing WYDs as the gigantic project of a John Paul who needed to have his vanity stroked by cheering kids, and the remarkable notion that the Church runs by the Pope recieving direct inspiration from the Holy Spirit and then barking orders at the cowering bishops, priests and laity.
I was reminded of these depe thots when their author, Nancy, dropped the suggestion above that WYDs are basically just a bit of temporary fizz that make no difference in the lives of youth.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:00 pm


Christine: Actually, Soylent Green wasn’t a bad movie, but then that was the EARLY seventies….back before the bad 70s of ABBA, and heavy gold chains and disco and Three’s Company and Starsky and Hutch and On Being a Christian by Hans Kung and well, I could go on and on (but you already know that).



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:07 pm


Yep, I agree, Soylent Green was a really cool movie! I loved the several science fiction movies Charlton Heston made.
On Being a Christian was one of the first books I read by H.K. Being Protestant at the time I thought it made some good points.
As I see the turmoil now engulfing the ELCA I am amazed at how many of H.K.’s principles mainstream Protestantism adopted. That’s why he is so comfortable in that worldview. Even my Lutheran sister, struggling with her decision to remain in the ELCA has commented that maybe Catholics are fortunate to have the papacy.



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Jason

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:10 pm


Wouldn’t ya love to be a fly on the wall listening to, say, Cardinal Mahony versus Cardinal George?
Cardinal Mahoney participated in an online chat with a group of young people last year:
http://www.recongress.org/chat2005.htm



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jane M

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:16 pm


Ian, You are young enough to be my kid and probably the cardinal’s great nephew or something so you are still *relatively* young. Enjoy it. Time will cure you way too fast.
Cornelius, this guy started planning WYD with Pope JPII and is probably still grieving his death. Don’t spoil it by being snarky. He did say *in a special* way.



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:17 pm


Soylent Green was part of a whole slew of Dystopian sci-fi that threatened to make sci-fi the repository of every despairing vision of the universe imaginable in the early seventies. From Planet of the Apes (the original, I mean) to Silent Running to Omega Man to Soylent Green, you could reliably count on sci-fi to say, “I’ve seen the future. Here: just take this pistol and a bottle of whiskey. You’ll be happier that way!”
A post-Star Wars generation is often blissfully unaware of how much we owe George Lucas for making sci-fi/fantasy *fun* again.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:17 pm


Charlton Heston did have a sort of last leaping flame of good movies there till, well, he, er, changed…..On Being a Christian is the first and only book I ever read by HK. One was enough, and why not make it his magnum opus? I read it for a theology group (our initial meeting) and NOBODY liked it, not the “conservative” Jesuit who lead the discussion, not the Marxist/Calvinist/Barthian history professor, not the Catholic Worker-ish letter carrier, not the “liberal Catholic” bookstore owner who hosted us, not nobody, not me, for sure…Now that’s true ecumenism!



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Septimus

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:19 pm


I think the Hans Kung “parallel event” is a great idea — the Cardinal should call their bluff!
I couldn’t imagine a more striking contrast.
Assuming Hans Kung & co. could actually draw any significant number of “youth” (as opposed to heart-palpitating, arteries-hardening, blood-pressure-medicating, cholesterol-lowering, hair-overcombing, pill-popping, aging, griping, whining CRANKS), I am ready to bet the number will be SMALL, and the climate a lot more like one of those anti-globalism nihil-fests and even the jaded press won’t buy it’s a “Catholic youth” event.
Picture it: Frances Quissling will fly over and pass out “Keep your rosaries off my ovaries” signs; Matthew Fox will show up, and set up sweat lodges, pass out peyote, and arrange shaman-circles and prayers to the winds, and the secret-agent nuns will be betwixt and between, especially when “Father”–no, “Mother”–no, “Parental Unit” Dagmar Celeste and the other priestesses arrive to celebrate “womoneucharist.”
And then, after a couple of days, someone will ask, “Hmmm…have you seen any young people?”



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:24 pm


Mark: you make me nostalgic. I’d take those “pessimistic” sci-fi flicks (and I don’t much like sci-fi) anyday over Star Wars, etc. I remember about 6 or 8 of us sitting at a drive-in (!) through all three of the Ape movies…well, we did haul it out of there by #3. Lotsa beer at one sitting. Don’t you think these days Kung LOOKS like one of those apes?



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:27 pm


Sepctimus, you are an ageist.



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Christine

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:30 pm


Gosh, I guess it was because I was much younger when I first saw Soylent Green and Omega Man. I kind of reacted to them the same way I did to the Mummy and Dracula movies I saw growing up. Pure entertainment, never even entering my mind that such things could come to pass. My husband enjoyed them too, but that’s probably becauses in comparison to what he saw in his real life day-to-day duties as a police officer these movies couldn’t hold a candle to what people are really capable of.



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Septimus

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:31 pm


reluctant – is it your trifocals, or arthritis, that causes you to mistype my name?



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:32 pm


Bruce:
I think he kinda looks like Edna Mode.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:36 pm


Mark: And I think Edna Mode looks like Judith Miller.



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Dale Price

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:36 pm


My favorite Hans Kung story: a thoroughly orthodox priest is leading an adult education class, and the group is discussion a certain point of theology. The priest warns that there is a danger they could wander off into “Hans Kung territory” if they follow a dubious argument. The younger members of the class raise their hands as one and ask:
“Who’s Hans Kung?”
The priest didn’t stop grinning for a week.
Actually, according to Peter Kreeft, Kung did write one good, perhaps even great, book: Does God Exist?
He and Fr. Tacelli recommend it in their “Christian Apologetics” book.



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Dale Price

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:38 pm


That’s “discussing a certain point of theology.”
D’oh! The joys of an infant and toddler-influenced sleep pattern.



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Mark Shea

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:42 pm


“Hmmm…have you seen any young people?”
Silly Septimus, you *badly* underestimate the invincible narcissism of the Baby Boomers. Fr. O’Leary has already explained the way an ignoramus like John Paul reached over the heads of “educated Baby Boomers” and seduced an entire generation of brainless Gen Xers and Y’ers into failing to appreciate the ineffable greatness of all that is Boomerdom. The poor Boomers: their parents never understood them and they children fail to appreciate the majesty and splendor of their superiority to the whole human race.



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Septimus

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:45 pm


Heh, heh, heh . . . Hey, wait-a-minute!I’m a baby-boomer (1962)!



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:52 pm


Trifocals, arthritis, and Trappist Beer



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Septimus

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:53 pm


Mark:
I went to check out Fr. O’Leary, and…oh my!
At first, I thought–this is a parody; he’s going to shift after a few paragraphs to a serious voice…but NO!
In charity, I shouldn’t laugh; I should have compassion, because the landscape must look increasingly dreary for Fr. O’Leary.



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amy

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:53 pm


Dale:
I’d recommend “Does God Exist” as well. A very useful critique of contemporary atheism.



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Becky

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:54 pm


Nancy – *sigh* – I don’t think there are words. Maybe…get a clue! I came back to the Church through a WYD. Since then I’ve been a youth minister and (attempted) to devote my life to Christ’s love and truth. There are many like me who have had similar experiences. Your inference that WYDs are just emotional highs that “fizzle” is unfounded.
If you want young people, go to churches that are centered on the Eucharist. The only time I’ve seen a majority of grey-haired people worshipping was in Germany (where you’re lucky to find people going to church – this will soon change), at “reformed” convents that serve up dishes of lukewarm Catholicism and feminist theology, and generally churches in America that are a far cry from orthodoxy.
If you want to see all the young people, go to a parish that sees the beauty and truth of the Catholic Church. I’m a young adult, and my generation is sick of half-ass Newman centers, Kerry Katholics who didn’t survive the sexual revolution, bad theology, dissent and all the unhappiness that goes with it.
My generation of Catholics = orthodoxy
Wake up and smell the scapulars. And while you’re at it, ditch the Newman center and hang out with the Catholics who are reviving the Church today through their obedience and love.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:55 pm


Fr. O’Leary!!!! There’s a whole ‘nother thread right there. But I gotta say, the guy is one of these guys with just enough schooling to be really ‘tupid. Donna (off another thread a few days ago) linked me to his site. Man, for some boffo entertainment, go read this guy. He likes to string together a lot of names of people he doesn’t like, so he groups Garrigou-Lagrange with the resourcement people as bad guys. Which is like saying “I don’t like Chamberlain and Churchill cuz, well, well, well,…let’s think about it…oh, yeah, their names both start with C!” (At which point, Father sits down exhausted from producing just a profound brain-fart.)



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clarence

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:57 pm


I go to a parish which doubles as a Newman Hall for a huge university, and there are way too many grey heads in the congregation considering the situation.
More likely than not, they’ve seen enough of the Fr. Richard Sparks show, and go to mass somewhere else. Yes, many of us young people do not appreciate being “politely encouraged” to stand during the consecration.



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Susan Peterson

posted August 10, 2005 at 3:59 pm


Can I put in a little objection to “fire plug shaped menopausal women”?
Stick to criticizing these women’s actions, or their false beliefs.
Plenty of slim young things at the current world youth day will become thick around the middle in thirty years. Just as the slim young guys will develop paunches and male pattern baldness,most of them.
This is called aging, its normal, part of the human condition, not a moral evil. Being fire plug shaped is neither a cause nor an indicator for bad theology. I see plenty of fire plug shaped grey haired women at the Right to Life March…(and some have been attending it yearly for 30 years.)
It bothers me to read this because the writer seems to believe that being unattractive (to him) somehow compounds the misdoings of these women…is a reason they can the more easily be mocked or dismissed…is a proof that what they are doing is no good. If it is no good, its no good, and would be no good if they were 25 and hourglass shaped.
(Then, I suppose, they would be portrayed as sluts or floozies.)
Susan Peterson



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:05 pm


When I was a student I went to the Newman Center Mass once. The only part that reminded me that I was actually at Mass was when the brought out the incense. Unfortunately, it was burned in some sort of new age type bowl on the kitchen island altar. After that I made the longer trip to a reverent Mass. There’s a reason why there are only grey heads at Newman Center Masses.



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Rich Leonardi

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:07 pm


Then-Cardinal Ratzinger is asked about his current assessment of Kung in Salt of the Earth (or is it God and the World?). From the tone of the question, it seems Sewald is trying to get a rise out of him.
The gist of the cardinal’s answer is that Kung should be happy now that he’s no longer muzzled by the Magisterium.
Given the amount of carping he still does, it’s obvious that Kung’s freedom hasn’t given him much theological satisfaction (which more or less was Ratzinger’s point).



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:08 pm


It must be getting late, and I’m feeling charitable…but I do (I think) remember one good thing about On Being a Christian. He did a very good,quick, effective job dispesing with the “Paul the Inventor of Christianity because he wrote his Epistles before the Gospels were written” line of thought. Or am I just getting senile and only think I remember that….



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Veronica

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:16 pm


“Shame on the previous poster for impersonating the real Mark Shea! Your sarcasm doesn’t convey wit or even intelligence.”
“It was the real me, Jacqueline.”
If it gives you any consolation, Mark, I did find your comments rather funny, in a satirical way.
“Aww come on – let’s leave poor ABBA alone. My daughters were quickly growing up in the late 70s and by the time Dancing Queen came along we also got the Eagles and Hotel California”
I sympathize with your daughters about growing up in the late 70s and early 80s. I really wish I could say that I liked ABBA (or the Hotel California song, for that matter, the sound of which still haunts me), but as it was, I can hardly listen to them without having painful flashbacks of listening to the Spanish version of “Chiquitita” in my Catholic Elementary school. Psichological torture, I say, and part of the reason of my dislike for “progressive” nuns.



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bruce cole

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:19 pm


Newman Centers…Acutally I had a pretty good experience at mine. In part, I think this was because it had status as a regular parish (not the usual arrangement – at that time, at least). Plus, the Dominicans that staffed it were pretty level-headed. And dare I say it, this was in the, ahem, well, you know…70’s. So life suprise ya…remember, when Newman finally gets canonized (and his cause, like that of Duns Scotus, got un-stuck under JP II) his feast day will be tomorrow, August 11 (which is also my anniversay…you know, to that BeeGee lover).



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Rich Leonardi

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:20 pm


When I was a student I went to the Newman Center Mass once.
This is going to come off as irreverent, but here goes. As a student at the University of Dayton in the late ’80s, ‘Fr. Joe’ celebrated Mass for students Sunday night in my dorm’s cafeteria. Presumably the chapel four blocks away was too much of a walk. It was a fairly predictable affair: ‘Bless’d be the Lord!’ strummed on the guitar, sweaty palms linked during the Our Father, gum removed from mouth just before receiving the sacrament.
As the Our Father began and students began joining hands, my roommate and I looked at each other and thought, “You’ve got to be kidding me!?” We did it anyway, and just before the prayer finished one of my fellow students relieved himself quite audibly. Everyone burst out laughing, but no one dared uncouple their hands until the very last words.



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:25 pm


I just caught this on Father O’Lear’s blog:
“I reserve the term Neocaths for a vocal ideological wing of the younger generation which is in alliance with older voices and organs such as The Wanderer, Catholics United for the Faith. They are particularly well represented in the blogosphere. They are led by academic mentors such as the philosophers Peter Kreeft and Philip Blosser, and some of the more flamboyant voices are those of Christopher Blosser, Jeff Miller, Jimmy Akin, Oswald Sobrino, Mansfield Fox, Earl E. Appleby, Amy Welborn, Arthur Tsui, and at the youngest (and perhaps most genuine) end of the spectrum, Apolonio Latar III.’
I know now why Mark doesn’t like him. The good padre mentioned Amy Welborn and Jimmy Akin but not Mr. Shea!



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Art Deco

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:31 pm


Tim Ferguson offers:
From my experience kids, especially college kids, tend to avoid Newman parishes and campus ministries like the plague, because they tend to be rife with the shallow heterodoxy of the 60’s and 70’s. If you’re looking for the youth, check out the local parish that offers the Tridentine Mass, the one that has a chant schola, the one that has a solid young adult program, the one that has perpetual adoration, or the one that has an orthodox pastor who preaches on sin, grace and redemption rather than hugs, smiles and handshakes.
Perhaps you could persuade some of these youngsters to colonize the Diocese of Syracuse. Orthodoxy and reverent liturgy are not (in my quite limited experience) much of a draw herabouts. Outside of the local Newman Center, I believe just about everyone I have seen between the ages of 18 and 30 at local Catholic masses in the last five years is from one of two families. The most proximate church offering the Tridentine Mass hosts a comparatively youthful crew, but a crew few in number.
Mrs. Peterson, same deal in Tioga County?
Christopher Ferrara and Thomas Woods had in their recent book some criticisms of the World Youth Days that merit attention.



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:38 pm


Mr. Deco,
It sounds like nothing is much of a draw in Syracuse. What do you think is the cause of the sad state of the Church in that diocese?



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Caroline

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:39 pm


I’m with Susan. Now we have ageism in the Church! Disguised as revolt against what an earlier generation did with Catholicism? Or just plain ageism?
About that expresion: “the poor and the marginalized” which we hear so often. Are there non poor who are marginalized as well as the grammar of the phrase suggests? If the butt of the jokes in these comments are a new marginalized group in the church, let us ponder God’s preferential love for the marginalized, all of them, those of today and those of tomorrow.
On the other hand, the idea that God has a preferential love for anyone may just be one of those post V2 innovations which we should get rid of.



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Caroline

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:41 pm


I’m with Susan. Now we have ageism in the Church! Disguised as revolt against what an earlier generation did with Catholicism? Or just plain ageism?
About that expresion: “the poor and the marginalized” which we hear so often. Are there non poor who are marginalized as well as the grammar of the phrase suggests? If the butt of the jokes in these comments are a new marginalized group in the church, let us ponder God’s preferential love for the marginalized, all of them, those of today and those of tomorrow.
On the other hand, the idea that God has a preferential love for anyone may just be one of those post V2 innovations which we should get rid of.



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Veronica

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:44 pm


“Can I put in a little objection to “fire plug shaped menopausal women”?
Stick to criticizing these women’s actions, or their false beliefs.”
I agree with you 100% but I also think that the reason of the “fire plug shaped menopausal women” comments about dissidents is not to make fun of their age, but to point out how outdated and ironic they are in their views, especially when they talk about being the ‘future’ of the Church. I do find it funny (in a somewhat sad way) when I hear an aging Catholic woman older than my mother talking about womyn’s spirituality, labyrinths, womyn’s ordinations, etc… it sounds so lifeless, as oppossed to my mother’s vibrant faith, which makes her look so young, and makes me want to imitate her… what a BIG difference orthodoxy makes!



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sharon d.

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:51 pm


Thank you, Susan. Some of us were more-or-less fireplug shaped even back when we were enthusiastic young teens excited about John Paul II.
And you better bet the shoes are sensible; I’m not sprinting after a two-year-old in heels!



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Susan Peterson

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:53 pm


Really a fair number of teens attend mass with their families in Tioga County.
As for people in their twenties…not very many of them even STAY in Tioga County. They go away to college and then live either there or where their jobs take them.
Those from the most economically and socially deprived classes do stay, I suppose. But few of those are Catholic anyway.
There are young families..say late 20’s, early 30’s,in the parish, having babies baptized. I think a few are locals who have come back; more have come here to work at Lockheed Martin etc. Sunday before last, there was a baby baptized named “John-Paul” The priest did a double take, and said “For the pope?” The father nodded, the priest repeated, “John-Paul, for the Pope” and there was a sprinkling of spontaneous applause. (sorry, those who don’t like applause in church. we clap a lot here and at least this was for a good reason.) There is only one young family in parish that I am aware of having lots of kids though. Three seems fairly common.
So, in general my parish is fairly young, considering the low birth rate and the high emigration rate.
Susan Peterson



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john c

posted August 10, 2005 at 4:55 pm


I find Veronica’s comments rather funny in a somewhat most post-modern kind of way.
Ah, who am I kidding? Her if it gives you any consolation, Mark, I did find your comments rather funny, in a satirical way was a scream.



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joe

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:04 pm


“I hope whoever-they-are hosts the “parallel event”, so someone can photograph the two, and compare the size, age, and joyfulness of each’s attendance.”
You have noticed how the insane look really, really, joyful?



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stuart chessman

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:05 pm


Commenters understandably have missed the point that Drewermann, Kueng and Jacques Gaillot (among others)were official speakers at last year’s Ulm “Katholikentag” (= National Catholic Congress)organized by the Church in Germany. A few members of the hierarchy there objected to this – Kaspar of course stoutly defended the whole thing.



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Terrence Berres

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:29 pm


Anyone remember “paradigm shift“?



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Simon

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:31 pm


All I know is that “The People of Yesterday” is a magnificent term and a fitting counterpart to “Lidless Eye” at the other end of the spectrum. I for one shall use it often.
Also, when was the last time a Cardinal or any other hierarch referred directly to a specific dissenter as “stale” or a teacher of “silliness”? Triumphalist or no, we need more of this kind of frankness!



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Carl

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:37 pm


When I quickly started scanning the comments, because there were so many, I saw the words “Dancing Queen” and “St Joan’s in Minneapolis”. Naturally I thought that must be on the parishoners wish list for a new pastor…



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reluctant penitent

posted August 10, 2005 at 5:45 pm


No one is saying that being old is a bad thing. The youth are, after all, coming to see an old man. Being a very old ‘progressive,’ on the other hand, is quite funny and always appropriate to point out. What is a fire plug by the way?



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sissa

posted August 10, 2005 at 6:27 pm


So JPII (presumably the Pope “from above”), is the only past Vicar of Christ in heaven? JPII hasn’t even been beatified yet, for cryin’ out loud. What about . . errr . . .
WYD started with JPII, that’s why Cdl. Meisner mentioned him.
That’s all.



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Mary Jane

posted August 10, 2005 at 8:22 pm


Well, I like Hotel California and Stayin’ Alive and lots of even worse disco tunes. I also had a fondness for Black Russians at the time. And I even liked Kung’s book when I read it. It crossed my path during a period when I’d resolutely walked away from everything Christian and that book (and the Holy Spirit, obviously) started me back.
I’d never read it again, but then I’d never wear those striped bell bottoms again either. The Eagles and the BeeGees have a more lasting appeal.



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Dorian Speed

posted August 10, 2005 at 8:45 pm


Is anyone going to enlighten me as to what this means?
“Drewermann interprets biblical texts on the basis of depth psychology, as illustrated in his book “Tiefenpsychologie und Exegese” (1988). ”
Because that actually was a real question.
I don’t normally take this anarchical approach to comment boxes, but now that “Dancing Queen” is on the discussion agenda, I figure I can interrupt to whine about my question not being answered.
Does that mean he interprets biblical texts as myths that we all carry around in our collective um…unconscious? subconscious? I tried to read Jung a few years ago, but it was right before bedtime, and then I had freaky dreams. So I quit.
Signed,
Increasingly Grumpy Doofus



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jane M

posted August 10, 2005 at 9:39 pm


I think nobody can enlighten you, because nobody knows…



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Septimus

posted August 10, 2005 at 9:49 pm


reluctant:
A fireplug is a fire hydrant.
Mary Jane:
The other day, I was at “Ruby Tuesdays” and they had a list of exotic drinks, including a “Mochatini”; after joking with my friend about it, he talked me into getting one.
I thought, as I tasted it, “I’ve had this before”–then it hit me: it was a Black Russian! I paid like $8 for it!
Call me…SUCKER!!!



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Scrooge

posted August 11, 2005 at 12:37 am


So, comments enabled on this thread but not the Daily News priest philanderer? Give me a break. How biased can you get?



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Donald R. McClarey

posted August 11, 2005 at 6:35 am


“So, comments enabled on this thread but not the Daily News priest philanderer? Give me a break. How biased can you get?”
Oh yeah. Open Book is big on not talking about clerical transgressions. Get a clue troll!



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bruce cole

posted August 11, 2005 at 8:05 am


All right I “promise” (i.e., fingers behind back)this will be the last thing I say about this, but: has a Jungian take on “Dancing Queen” ever been done?
Submitted in the interests of bringing this thread full circle….



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Jeff

posted August 11, 2005 at 10:21 am


Dang…I go away for a day and miss an entire day’s worth of discussions in which ABBA was involved! I took my wife to the Lied Center here in Lincoln for a performance of Mamma Mia! and had a ball. She never liked them and always looked at me sideways for playing them, but after that show on Feb. 1st she had their greatest hits going non-stop in the van or the house for months…even I finally had to hide the CD.
After reading this thread, I’m going to reach for my “Munich Philharmonic plays ABBA” CD and watch my “Xanadu” DVD when I get home. Wooo hoooo!



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Jeff

posted August 11, 2005 at 10:23 am


Dang…I go away for a day and miss an entire day’s worth of discussions in which ABBA was involved! I took my wife to the Lied Center here in Lincoln for a performance of Mamma Mia! and had a ball. She never liked them and always looked at me sideways for playing them, but after that show on Feb. 1st she had their greatest hits going non-stop in the van or the house for months…even I finally had to hide the CD.
After reading this thread, I’m going to reach for my “Munich Philharmonic plays ABBA” CD and watch my “Xanadu” DVD when I get home. Wooo hoooo!



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bruce cole

posted August 11, 2005 at 10:46 am


This sickness has got to stop! You can see that not only are there these conversions to ABBA (Scientology links, anyone?) but it leads to double-posting. After Christine, intervention for Jeff and his wife.



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Veronica

posted August 11, 2005 at 11:26 am


Personally, I see ‘Mamma Mia’ as the musical equivalent of a 3-day brainwashing Moonie camp… it leads to a forced conversion by playing with your emotions, using cheesy music in the background. Scary… very scary. *remembers seeing ‘Xanadu’ as a child and shudders*



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Christine

posted August 11, 2005 at 11:40 am


Oh Bruce, have pity on me. I’ve already confessed on another thread to being affected by the laser beams zapping my neighborhood. They are the only explanation possible for the garbled post I made.
I have to admit a fondness for Mama Mia, though. It puts a little extra “kick” into my step!!



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bruce cole

posted August 11, 2005 at 11:53 am


Good, Christine, good. Admitting your problem is the first step…



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C. Johnson

posted August 11, 2005 at 12:05 pm


OK, I’ll ask too: what does this mean:
“Drewermann interprets biblical texts on the basis of depth psychology, as illustrated in his book “Tiefenpsychologie und Exegese” (1988). ”
I’ll settle for an explanation of depth psychology and hope I can parse out the rest of the statement….although, for the record, I admit I kind of like ABBA, late baby-boomer (1963) that I am.



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Christine

posted August 11, 2005 at 12:05 pm


Bruce — you mean it IS the laser beams?????



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Der Tommissar

posted August 11, 2005 at 1:16 pm


Hey, I /like/ ABBA. I think the World Senile Day attendees should play “SOS”. It would be appropriate.
And when I want to drive my wife nuts, I just sing the beginning of “I think I love you” by the Partridge Family.
I had a DRE tell me Hans Kung’s theology was “very deep”.
To wit I reply, “I feel the same way. I read one of his books and felt like I was in at least hip deep. He really can shovel it.”
She didn’t catch on. *sigh* Old people.



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bruce cole

posted August 11, 2005 at 2:48 pm


Christine, if the laser beams are “true for you”, then who am I to impose, like, my value judgements, even though I myself am, like, personally coming totally from a different space?



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Spirit of Vatican II

posted August 15, 2005 at 11:38 am


Card. Meisner’s comments savor of “methinks the lady doth protest too much”. Kung and Drewermann have brought the Gospel to far more people than most Cardinals (as we see even here from the praise conferred on two books treated as heretical by the Vatican). In their speedy bureaucratic dismissal of both the German hierarchy may have quenched the Spirit. JMJ is pap for the neocath crowds, offering a collective thrill rather than mature dialogal faith and sharing. The crowd manipulation that JP2 substituted for the traditional magisterium has bred a generation of fanatics. The only hope is that they show some interest in theology, if only for the purposes of propagandistic jousting, and this is a refreshing contrast with the sheer theological illiteracy of so many. It may lead them to better things in time.



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bruce cole

posted August 15, 2005 at 2:45 pm


Dear Fr. O’Leary:
Gee, thanks for sharing.



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bill

posted August 16, 2005 at 9:29 am


Re: “Drewermann interprets biblical texts on the basis of depth psychology, as illustrated in his book “Tiefenpsychologie und Exegese” (1988). ”
That means that Drewermann interprets how biblical texts speak about the way our psyche and spirit changes when we encounter God. Drewermann shows how Jesus’ healings as described in the Gospels still happen today. He emphasizes our very personal relationship to God. How Jesus’ message of healing can be experienced today is his concern. His books have been bestsellers in Germany and other European countries. He is very well-known in Europe as a fresh Catholic voice.
There is one very good English book about him available. The title is “A Violent God-Image: An Introduction to the Work of Eugen Drewermann” (New York: Continuum, 2004). It is available at most book stores, also online at amazon or bn.
You may want to read this book before you judge him based on hearsay.



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Richard

posted August 16, 2005 at 1:49 pm


“Spirit of VaticanII”:
It has been months since I came across a satire as deft as that one: a base clearing triple if not a home run. The username (it goes without saying) was almost overkill. Even Shea isn’t this good.
Yet the best satire is often indistinguishable from the real thing, which is the main reason why, as George Will once observed, the New York Times is mainly unsatirizable. So I hope no one read your post thinking it was the real thing.
We have, after all, more than a few fanatics around here.
best regards
Richard



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bruce cole

posted August 16, 2005 at 2:33 pm


Oh, Richard, in case you think that was satire (would that it were): http://josephsoleary.typepad.com/my_weblog/2005/07/the_rise_of_the.html



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bruce cole

posted August 16, 2005 at 2:38 pm


Unless, of course, your post was satire. Oh my God, I argued too hard with “co-redemptrix” people on that other thread and I’m on Brain Lock!!!!!
No more posting today. Cold turkey until tomorrow. Honest, officer, I swear.



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Plato's Stepchild

posted August 17, 2005 at 11:59 am


Plato’s stepchild is featuring Fr O’Leary as his honored guest at Torquemada Tuesdays. Some of you may enjoy the entertainment value of Fr O’Leary’s dyspeptic Heidegrrrrr and James Joyce schtick.
I’m currently having some fun with his work on Plotinus.
Tally ho.



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bruce cole

posted August 17, 2005 at 2:38 pm


I’m back to commenting. Whew! What I find wierd is that four days passed until O’Leary posted his comment. I have to assume he didn’t actually read anything we had to say (some of it about him, no less, not just about ABBA.) Also, I guess I should get a neat name that’s also an historical event with which to post. Perhaps, Council of Orange, 529 A.D.



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