The New Christians

The New Christians


Comment of the Day

posted by Tony Jones

Noah, a self-described conservative, makes a calm and helpful comment under Same Sex Marriage Blogalogue: Press Pause,

To be really honest, the comment section makes me sad. It is sad to me
that people become so ugly when discussions arise over A vs B. I lean
more conservatively on the issue but it doesn’t mean that I advocate
for hate crimes. I am somewhat in quandary why a conservative on this
issue is given the same status as those who are grossly ignorant. If we
are going to be civil with our tongue perhaps we need to learn to be
more generous with each other and recognize that these are not just
issues but people. I hurt for the GLBT community and I hurt for the
church. It really makes me sad over the amount of hell both parties get
because civility is lost for being right. To be really honest though,
it makes sense why there would be such animosity from the GLBT
community to the church in the same way that it makes sense for an
African American preacher to be making statements about the white devil
from the pulpit. It doesn’t make it right, but it does make sense.
Perhaps what the church needs to do is to apologize first and become
accepting and loving and allow God to sort it out. Shouldn’t the church
be the very place that welcomes GLBT instead of ostracizing them? I
hurt and this will probably be the last time I comment on this blog
post. Tony, much love to ya for tackling all this and keeping your head
about you.



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Joel

posted January 29, 2009 at 11:19 am


I agree to a point, but I think we’re missing the severity of sin on community. The Church is a place for repentant sinners. Church should be a place where homosexuals, racists, drug addicts, alcoholics, violent people, and so on and so forth should be able to come together and worship Christ. This, however, can only happen under repentance (doesn’t mean they don’t struggle or that the repentance is complete, just that they admit they have a problem). This means everyone in the Church should be laying down some type of sin and anyone in the Church who judges others or claims to have fully repented is probably lying (or a narcissist).
It isn’t, however, a place for unrepentant sinners. Both Christ and Paul make it very clear that when people refuse to repent from their sins, they aren’t to be part of the body (instead, they are to be left up for God). I feel this way about any and all sin, not just homosexuality. Too often we’ll let other sins slide right on by. I look to Ted Haggard as an example. He refused to repent from his arrogance and self-serving ways prior to being caught in a homosexual act. The Church, and evangelicalism sickingly enough, approved of his sin. The fact is, he should have been approached during that time and asked to step down. However, once homosexuality came about, he was kicked out. That’s inconsistent. Sin is sin – when we try to justify our sin and refuse to repent, we become a hinderance to the Body.
I should also stress that all the above only applies to those that call themselves Christians. If someone refuses to repent from sin, but also doesn’t claim Christ, who cares? Keep them around, speak with them, befriend them. That’s Paul’s advice at least.
So yes, we should be a place for all types of Christians who are trapped in sin, so long as they’re willing to repent. Without repentance, they’ve rejected the community, so how can they be accepted?



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Liz

posted January 29, 2009 at 1:58 pm


Joel – You said that church is not a place for unrepentant sinners (who profess to be Christians). I don’t know if you are right about that or not – but, if you put that into practice I think a lot of churches would be virtually empty. If you just got rid of the Christians who are not repentant about the way that they treat and think of and talk about homosexuals; and the people who are not repentant about spouting off their beliefs as if they are infallible at interpreting scripture (or worse – just spouting off what some other person has told them the correct interpretation is)you might be surprised how few people are left. Maybe we should be a little more diligent about the things that are more clearly spelled out in scripture before start a condemning people regarding issues that aren’t so clear…for instance:
He has told you, O man, what is good;
And what does the Lord require of you
But to do justice, to love kindness,
And to walk humbly with your God?
(Micah 6:8)



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Joel

posted January 29, 2009 at 2:05 pm


The problem is, some of the stuff you listed isn’t sinful.
I’m sorry that you disagree with both Jesus and Paul and think their beliefs aren’t applicable. I’m simply pointing out a truth – if people refuse to admit that what they are doing is sin (and it’s actually sinful, as in, implicit or explicit in the Bible), they’re a hinderance to the body and the community. Christ says to cut them off (or remove them) and Paul says not to fellowship with such people.
How much clearer can the Bible be on one issue?



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Existential Punk

posted January 29, 2009 at 4:23 pm


Joel,
Jesus NEVER spoke about homosexuality. How do you know that your interpretation of Scripture is the correct one? Interpretation is not so cut and dry as to simply read Scripture and take it at face value. Interpretation includes looking at passages in their cultural and historical contexts.
i have plenty of sins in my life but my being queer is how G-d created me and i do not believe i am sinning by being queer. i LOVE and CHERISH my wife.
Why are people so interested in ‘their’ interpretations and ‘right’ belief over and above right relationships and treating all humans with dignity and respect.
Sorry Tony, but places like your blog with these discussions are tiring, hurtful, circular, and become a place for Biblical masturbation that do nothing to engage real flesh and blood human beings.i agree with Noah when he says the following things:
‘If we are going to be civil with our tongue perhaps we need to learn to be more generous with each other and recognize that these are not just issues but people…It really makes me sad over the amount of hell both parties get because civility is lost for being right.”
EP



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Dave Metz

posted January 31, 2009 at 1:54 pm


Okay,
The phrase that I simply MUST work into every conversation possible in the next week is:
“Biblical masturbation.”
:-)



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