Steven Waldman

Steven Waldman


Rick Warren’s Controversial Comments on Gay Marriage

posted by swaldman

The following is the controversial portion of the interview with Rick Warren focused on gay marriage, civil unions and divorce. In brackets are clarifications that Warren asked to include after reading a transcript of the original interview:
BELIEFNET: Which do you think is a greater threat to the American family – divorce or gay marriage?
WARREN: [laughs] That’s a no brainer. Divorce. There’s no doubt about it.
Here’s an interesting thing. The divorce statistics are quite bandied around. People say half the marriages end in divorce. That’s just not true. 40% of first time marriages end in divorce. About 61% of second time marriages end in divorce and 75% of third time marriages end in divorce. So the odds get worse and what’s balancing this out…when you hear 50% end in divorce, that’s just not true. The majority of marriages do last….
BELIEFNET: So why do we hear so much more – especially from religious conservatives – about gay marriage than about divorce?
Oh we always love to talk about other sins more than ours. Why do we hear more about drug use than about being overweight? Why do we hear more about anything else than about wasting time or gossip? We want to point that my sins are perfectly acceptable. Your sins are hideous and evil.
BELIEFNET: One controversial moment for you in the last election was your support for proposition 8 in California. … Just to clarify, do you support civil unions or domestic partnerships?
WARREN: I don’t know if I’d use the term there but I support full equal rights for everybody in America. I don’t believe we should have unequal rights depending on particular lifestyles so I fully support equal rights.
[Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I now see you asked about civil UNIONS -and I responded by talking about civil RIGHTS. Sorry. They are two different issues. No American should ever be discriminated against because of their beliefs. Period. But a civil union is not a civil right. Nowhere in the constitution can you find the "right" to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage. It's just not there. ]
BELIEFNET: What about partnership benefits in terms of insurance or hospital visitation?
WARREN: You know, not a problem with me.
[Clarification from Pastor Warren 12/15: I favor anyone being able to make anyone else the beneficiary of their health or life insurance coverage. If I am willing to pay for it, I should be able to put a friend, partner, relative, or stranger on my coverage. No one should be turned away from seeing a friend in the hospital. But visiting rights are a non-issue in California! Since 1999, California has had a domestic partnership law that grants gay couples visiting rights and all the other rights. Prop 8 had no -zero -effect on those rights.]
The issue to me, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to redefinition of a 5,000 year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister being together and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
BELIEFNET: Do you think those are equivalent to gays getting married?
Oh , I do. For 5,000 years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion – this is not a Christian issue. Buddhist, Muslims, Jews – historically, marriage is a man and a woman. And the reason I supported Proposition 8, is really a free speech issue. Because first the court overrode the will of the people, but second there were all kinds of threats that if that did not pass then any pastor could be considered doing hate speech if he shared his views that he didn’t think homosexuality was the most natural way for relationships, and that would be hate speech. We should have freedom of speech, ok? And you should be able to have freedom of speech to make your position and I should be able to have freedom of speech to make my position, and can’t we do this in a civil way.
Most people know I have many gay friends. I’ve eaten dinner in gay homes. No church has probably done more for people with AIDS than Saddleback Church. Kay and I have given millions of dollars out of Purpose Driven Life helping people who got AIDS through gay relationships. So they can’t accuse me of homophobia. I just don’t believe in the redefinition of marriage.
[Clarification/addition from Pastor Warren 12:15:
BOTTOM LINE:
1. God, who always acts out of love and does what is best for us, thought up sex. Sex was God's idea, not ours. Like fire, and many other things God gave us, sex can be used for good, or abused in ways that harm. The Designer of sex has clearly and repeatedly said that he created sex exclusively for husbands and wives in marriage. Whenever God's parameters are violated, it causes broken hearts, broken families, emotional hurt and shame, painful memories, and many other destructive consequences. There would be so STDs in our world if we all played by the rules.
2. God gives me the free choice to follow his commands or willfully disobey them so I must allow others to have that same free choice. Loving, trusting, and obeying God cannot be forced. In America, people already have the civil right to live as they wish.
3. If anyone, whether unfaithful spouses, or unmarried couples, or homosexuals or anyone else think they are smarter than God and chooses to disobey God's sexual instructions, it is not the US government's role to take away their choice. But neither is it the government's role to classify just any "loving" relationship as a marriage. A committed boyfriend-girlfriend relationship is not a marriage. Two lovers living together is a not a marriage. Incest is not marriage. A domestic partnership or even a civil union is still not marriage.
4. Much of this debate is not really about civil rights, but a desire for approval. The fact that 70% of blacks supported Prop 8 shows they don't believe it is a civil rights issue. Gays in California already have their rights. What they desire is approval and validation from those who disagree with them, and they are willing to force it by law if necessary. Any disapproval is quickly labeled "hate speech. Imagine if we held that standard in every other disagreement Americans have? There would be no free speech. That's why, on the traditional marriage side, many saw Prop 8 as a free speech issue: Don't force me to validate a lifestyle I disagree with. It is not the same as marriage." And many saw the Teacher's Union contribution of $3 million against Prop 8, as a effort to insure that children would be taught to approve what most parents disapprove of.]



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ReadABook

posted December 18, 2008 at 4:49 am


Is calling my marrying the love of my life of 9 years, who I’ve been with through thick and thin (including the nightmare of 911), the same thing as child molesting, Hate speech? You bet buddy. What the hell are you thinking Rick?? If you called me a faggot, would that be Hate? Would that be any worse than calling me a child molester? Actually, if those are the choices….give me faggot back. Though, I’d prefer my civil rights back first.
Is saying that 1 man + 1 woman has been the definition of marriage for 5,000ys hate speech? No, thats just what you call a lie. Who’s redefining marriage now?



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Debby

posted December 18, 2008 at 6:39 am


I sense Rick is walking a thin line. He sure knows how to word his “words” so not to “offend” anyone but maybe God???? Only God knows and for me the court is still out on Pastor Warren. The TRUTH shall set us free!



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Your Name

posted December 18, 2008 at 7:31 am


My faith informs my opinion about the definition of marriage just as anyone’s faith – whether religious or otherwise – informs them. Christians have a responsibility to vote in a way that they believe is faithful to God’s will as outlined in His Word. Others will allow their experience to influence their beliefs. Others will allow their belief in no God to influence them. All of us allow our faith to inform our votes. More individual people in California voted against the bill because their faith informed them that marriage is between a woman and a man. This isn’t a civil rights issue.
In the end if more people had voted the other way, as a Christian, I would have accepted that decision on a civil level. The point is I have a right to vote as my faith informs me and so does everyone else.
And to add to this, it wasn’t a case of church and state as some people suggest as if people are one or the other. People carry both with them and not even the constitution can separate this in people and their beliefs – or their votes.
If there wasn’t such a militant attempt to label everyone as hateful or homophobic or to put on the line church leaders who teach from their faith traditional marriage, this might have passed. Taking away my right isn’t the way to obtain your right.



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Suzanne

posted December 18, 2008 at 2:10 pm


I am trying to figure out how someone else, anyone else, getting married takes away a stranger’s rights. All the people who have divorced haven’t affected my marriage, all the people with terrible abusive marriages haven’t affected my marriage, and all the people with long loving marriages don’t affect my marriage or my rights, or my choices. What kind of people let the marriages, divorces, and private sexual encounters of strangers define who they are? Maybe people with no REAL faith in themselves, their god, or their ability to make good choices.



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Kyle

posted December 18, 2008 at 3:16 pm


One thing I’m getting quite tired of is hearing folks like Warren say “I have many gay friends!” Some friend!
Maybe it’s time for us all to re-evaluate our “friendships” with people that don’t see us as equal citizens of this country. You can’t call us your friend one moment and then deny us equal protection UNDER THE LAW the next moment.
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that maybe these ‘friends’ you and people like Sarah Palin mention don’t think of your friendship in the same way you do. Fellow CITIZENS shouldn’t treat one another that way, let alone friends.



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Jamie Dimmel

posted December 18, 2008 at 3:21 pm


Rick Warren is either a liar or ignorant. His statement “For 5,000 years, marriage has been defined by every single culture and every single religion – this is not a Christian issue. Buddhist, Muslims, Jews – historically, marriage is a man and a woman.” is absolutely false. The bible itself condones incest, polygamy, concubinage & divorce. Those are facts that can be found in the King James bible, both old & new testaments. Also, Muslims today have the right to multiple wives, that is a fact; even early Christianity did not legally define marriage. This is a perfect example of how conservatives deny the past to shape the future to their totalitarian view of society. What a shame that the bright new future is now shadowed by the hatred this man embodies.



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Tim in Manhattan

posted December 18, 2008 at 3:21 pm


Warren is ignorant about the history of marriage. He is a fool if he thinks gay people anywhere “have our rights.” We do not have equality in marriage rights, period. He’s eaten in “gay homes.” What’s a gay home, I wonder? He is not even articulate. What a poor choice on Obama’s part. And I will ask for the umpteenth time: Why do you insist on flacking for this fool?



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Russ

posted December 18, 2008 at 3:23 pm


If Rick Warren had been anti-Black, anti-Hispanic, anti-Asian, anti-Jew, anti-any other minority other than gay, then he would not have been given a place at Obama’s inaugural table because it would have been wrong to give such a person a platform in which to give validity to their bigotry. But since Warren is anti-gay, Obama tries to defend his choice by saying he wants to listen to differing viewpoints. Bigotry is bigotry, no matter what rhetoric you wrap it in. If we are to use Obama’s failed logic on this issue, then white supremacists should have a chair at Obama’s inaugural table (but they won’t because we know their positions on social issues are wrong, just as Rick Warren is wrong). Obama blew it with this one. It is painfully obvious to anyone that this is simply pandering to the radical religious who have held this country hostage, via the Bush regime, for the last 8 years. With this most egregious of decisions, Obama has flushed his credibility down the toilet. This is not change we can believe in. This is just more of the same garbage that gay people have had to deal with the last 8 years. And it stinks. Obama benefitted greatly from gay people’s, their friends’, and their families’ financial donations and their votes (including financial donations and vote from this gay person). And how are we repaid? We are thrown under the bus. The hearts and minds of a huge segment of the U.S. population are lost by such a purely political maneuver, and we cannot be one people/one country because of it. Here’s hoping Obama wises up. If he wants to fix this country, he’s going to need everyone’s involvement, and right now, gays, their families, and friends are feeling like their involvement in cleaning up this country is neither wanted nor desired. Not a good message. Not a good way to begin Obama’s presidency. Not good at all. And there’s no excuse for it.



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marcelo

posted December 18, 2008 at 5:06 pm


Any one with half a heart will agree that it is cruel to deny health benefits and hospital visitation. Those are easy questions. We should be asking people like Rick Warren tougher questions:
1- if an american partner lives with his foreign spouse, raises a family together, and is in all but name married– do you support sending this family into forced exile because the american partner is not able to sponsor his partner for immigration the way heterosexual couples can? If not, then do you support the Uniting American Families Act currently in the congress?
2- if a lesbian couple are both the adoptive parents of a child in one state, but another state refuses to recognize gay adoption– do you support that other state’s right to break up this family and take the children away from them? If not, then do you support full adoption rights for gay and lesbian families recognized on a federal level across all states so that no family is in danger of being torn apart by government?
3- Do you support the supreme court decision Loving vs. Virginia, or should that decision be overturned? That decision states that “marriage is one of the basic civil rights of man”. Are gays and lesbians not entitled to basic civil rights, or is this decision simply wrong?
4- You state that historically marriage is between one man and one woman, yet that is not accurate. Polygamy was once the norm. Marriage was not recognized between a black man and a white woman until recently. If the definition of marriage according to God’s word is constantly changing throughout history, then why are you so reluctant to welcome Gays and Lesbians into the institution of marriage.



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Stephanie

posted December 18, 2008 at 6:34 pm


To Jamie – the Bible most definitely does NOT condone polygamy, incest, concubinage and divorce. Just because those items are mentioned and even practiced by some revered biblical patriarchs (King David comes to mind for polygamy and concubinage) doesn’t mean the Bible says it’s OK. Things tended not to go well when multiple spouses got involved (just ask the Jews and Arabs about Hagar/Sarah and Ishmael/Isaac). King David also committed adultery and essentially murdered the woman’s husband. Does that mean the Bible condones adultery and murder? No. Just because God didn’t zap someone with lightning doesn’t mean He approved of certain behaviors. The Bible interprets the Bible. You have to read the whole thing to understand the holistic message, not pick and choose. Psalm 51 is about David’s repentance. God forgives completely when we repent. David was punished for his sin, BTW. The child that was born from the adultery died. The Bible is about how God uses very broken, mixed-up people to achieve His purposes. At the same time, God never compromises on sin. He is holy as well as loving.
To Russ – it is inaccurate and unfair to link Warren with the Bush administration ideology. If Warren was an ideologue, he would have toed the Republican party line. If this situation flushes Obama’s credibility down the toilet, then his credibility was shaky to begin with.
To all – I fail to see how Warren’s comments are “hateful.” He’s not inciting people to violence against gays or even to ostracize gays. Disagreement does not equal hate. Do you agree with your friends on EVERYTHING? I too have gay friends, and they know where I stand on this issue. We don’t talk about it much because we value the friendship more.
Marriage is not a “right.” It is a religious institution. Like Warren, I have no problem with people making their own choices re. who can visit them in the hospital and insurance beneficiaries. I think civil unions are appropriate for gay couples as well as heterosexual couples without religious beliefs, and I think there are aspects in our healthcare and judicial systems which need to be adjusted to accommodate that. But marriage is rooted in religion, and I, like Rick Warren, am very concerned how the push for gay marriage and other “equal rights” will impact religious institutions.
Warren’s selection for this event has nothing to do with the gay community. It’s about his innovative and diligent social justice work and the positive impact he’s had on millions of people around the world in those arenas. For the gay community to take this as a personal slap is ill-founded and frankly a little egocentric. If Obama compatriots have to agree with him on every single issue, then he’s just the liberal version of the neo-cons who silence and oust the opposition. We voted for Obama (yes, I voted for him – and rather enthusiastically, I might add) because, among other things, he showed that he’s a complex and holistic thinker, which we haven’t seen in a while. But we have to take the stuff we disagree with as well as the stuff we agree on. Our culture LOVES inclusiveness until someone gets included that we don’t like. That’s intolerant, too.



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Jon

posted December 18, 2008 at 7:40 pm


Stephanie,
For you to call gay marriage supporters ‘egocentric’ for taking the Warren pick as a slap in the face is adding insult to injury. Put yourself in their shoes–You are in a loving, monogamous relationship and have two wonderful children with your partner… your dream is that one day you will be legally able to get married. You volunteer for hours and donate money to the Obama campaign because although he hasn’t yet supported gay marriage, he is a very strong advocate for gay issues and civil equality, even calling prop 8 ‘divisive.’ You see promise in him and a huge step forward… Then the man who gave you such hope chooses to give the inaugural invocation to someone who clearly likens gay marriage to incest, polygamy & pedophilia.
How insensitive!
Think about it.



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Jesse Gardner

posted December 18, 2008 at 8:29 pm


These are all very short term arguments. I think what Warren is warning of is the end result of pulling down a societal construct that has been clearly defined since the beginning of recorded history… of course no gay or lesbian people are asking for incest, polygamy and pedophilia to be legalized. However, they are asking for the normalization of an arbitrary societal construct, and once you start to pull these things down, why only stop at your arbitrary constructs.
In other words, what will you as a gay man say to the polygamist or the pedophile when they what normalization of this activity? Anything you say would simply be hypocritical, and I think that’s the point that’s being brought up here.



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Mike Haubrich, FCD

posted December 18, 2008 at 10:00 pm


But marriage is rooted in religion, and I, like Rick Warren, am very concerned how the push for gay marriage and other “equal rights” will impact religious institutions.

And there are religions which are willing and find it within their belief systems to perform and sanctify gay marriage. Prop. 8 there violates their First Amendment rights. Do you think the government has a role in deciding how religions should define marriage?



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David

posted December 18, 2008 at 10:44 pm


This guy is a disgusting piece of trash.
Marriage is nothing other than a binding legal contract.
People try to play it up into being a religious sanctimony. When did religion become a part of the constitution? I’m pretty sure god didn’t write the constitution. You can believe what ever you want. But keep it out of my life and the state constitution.
Religion is such a weak argument.



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David

posted December 19, 2008 at 12:17 am


HOW IS GAY MARRIAGE EVEN CLOSE TO PEDOPHILIA OR POLYGAMY??? Pedophilia is molestation of children; how is that even close to similar? Seriously, as long as gay marriage doesn’t hurt anyone (and it doesn’t. people aren’t FORCED to be gay married. it’s completely a choice) it will never, NEVER be similar to pedophilia or polygamy, both of which DIRECTLY CAUSE psychological disorders. I don’t even see how it’s possible that a voluntary marriage with anyone, whether same, opposite, or no gender at all, could cause this.
Love is far more important than the type of plumbing you have.
by the way, I’m not homosexual, but a great deal of my friends are. I fully support any choices they make, and I fully believe what I wrote up there.



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Chris

posted December 19, 2008 at 2:56 am


For 5000 years (almost) every religion told us that women were not equal to men and were here to serve them. We were smart enough to obliterate that piece of religious wisdom and I know eventually this gem will also be looked upon as ignorance and hate too. It is horrifying that someone responsible for the spirituality of others can be so narrow minded. I truly hope what was said in this interview was merely pandering to the lowest common denominator, but I guess even that is hardly comforting. To equate Sexually Transmitted Disease with “not playing by the rules” is beyond backward. I guess Mental Illness, then, must be a result of unchristian thoughts? Perhaps no one would be obese if only they would say grace before wolfing down six big macs? I am horrified and insulted at the lack of reason in the answers above and see here merely another example of “us vs. them”. At no point here is it explained, what harm gay marriage would do to any heterosexual marriage. The part about visitation rights is insulting. Although it is an important right all it does is show a lack of logic in the argument. If you pick and choose what parts of your morality – what bits you agree with and those you disagree with – from the bible then your morality is NOT based on the bible and your argument is inconsistent and wrong. In 50 years time people will shake their heads with dismay when they read hate like the hate that is written in this article.



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Jsb16

posted December 19, 2008 at 10:34 am


Someone really needs to give Rick Warren a basic comparative religion text. Monogamous, lifelong marriage isn’t 5000 years old. Heck, his own Bible has stories about polygynous marriages (Abraham had children by how many women?). Islam certainly sanctions polygyny today, and the Mormons only gave it up (in theory) when they wanted Utah to become a state.



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Amanda

posted December 19, 2008 at 2:49 pm


I am sorely tired of the argument that attempts to cast Prop 8 as “right” just because it passed. There’s such a thing as tyranny of the majority. Just because a greater number of people support something than oppose it, it is not automatically the “right” decision. We as a nation have a history of overwhelming popular support for ideas and traditions that, by today’s standards, were/are/will always be despicable. Slavery. Disenfranchisement of women. Segregation. Bans on interracial marriage. At some point in history, each of these enjoyed the support of a majority of the country. When the rights of a marginalized minority population are at stake, sometimes the angry mob just can’t be trusted. In these cases, it is totally justified for the courts to step in and protect the interests of those whose numbers are too small to represent a powerful voting bloc. I’ve even heard the argument made that the majority simply isn’t “ready” for gay marriage. I have news for you, tyrannical majority: it matters not one bit whether you feel like you need a few more decades to get the warm fuzzies about someone else’s family. Like it or not, that family still has a right to exist, provided they are not forcing YOU to change the way YOU live. Nothing about the legalization of gay marriage would force religious types to approve of homosexuality. They would still have the right to say whatever they want, no matter how bigoted, and to teach their children to be as closed-minded as they are–just like there’s no law against being racist or sexist, as long as it’s in words only. But your rights end where theirs begin. This isn’t some abstract concept you’re opposing–your “opinions” are directly preventing actual people from doing things that you take for granted, things that will in no way harm you, your marriage or your children.
The other argument I’m sick of is the semantics one: “By calling gay unions ‘marriages,’ you’re re-defining a beloved religious word.” Well, fine. Keep your word. If “marriage” is exclusively a religious term, then in the spirit of compromise, you can have it. Let’s separate the concept of “marriage,” the spiritual union of a man and a woman in front of God, from the concept of a two-person union recognized by the government and granted special benefits. Fundamentally, all marriages are civil unions. In the eyes of the government, all adult couples who wish to be joined by law should be granted a “civil union.” If, then, a religious heterosexual couple wants to further define that union as a “marriage” before God, then mazel tov. If semantics is the only issue, I’m all in favor of exorcising the word “marriage” from the government’s vocabulary and letting the religious folks have it. Let’s all have civil unions, homo and hetero alike. If that’s what it takes to stop gays from being treated as second-class citizens, then so be it.



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Greg

posted December 19, 2008 at 7:57 pm


I love how Rick Warren says that all religions in the world have had the same definition of marriage for millenia. Maybe he’d like to go to Saudi Arabia and see how those arab and muslim marriages work out.



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Greg

posted December 19, 2008 at 8:02 pm


Marriage is NOT rooted in religion. Cavemen were getting married. I’ve also been to gay wedding ceremonies held by progressive churches, so whose religion has the final word?



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David H

posted December 20, 2008 at 1:33 am


“Nowhere in the constitution can you find the “right” to claim that any loving relationship identical to marriage. It’s just not there.”
Funny thing marriage isn’t mentioned at all in the constitution, hence all the efforts to add it now.
Fortunately we have such smart thinkers as Rick Warren to help us figure out God’s will. Too bad he wasn’t around to speak for the “Will of the People” when they supported Jim Crow, Slavery, and the many varieties of misogyny that have been blessed and legalized by democracies and despots throughout history.
This isn’t about gay validation or or free speech. This is about fear. Fear of what would happen to the world if we allow the word marriage as a substitute for civil union.
Funny thing is the framers of our constitution were afraid to really make all people equal — especially black people — because they were afraid of what would happen to their nascent nation and its economy. Rick Warren would have fit right in.



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creek freak

posted December 20, 2008 at 8:01 pm


Rick is just selling schlock to his flock…He’s in the religion business, after all. The fact that he’s so ignorant about his own Bible and the Constitution and many people buy his bs is pretty frightening…What did O say about clinging to guns and religion in bad times…Hold on!!



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Larry

posted December 21, 2008 at 2:35 am


Marriage had endured as an institution for thousands of years because it has the effect of promoting good behavior in men, which benefits women and children. As Warren notes, marriage does a pretty good job of this; 60% of first marriages endure. Most married couples remain faithful and , even when this ideal is not realized, the average number of lifetime partners for unfaithful spouses is on the order of one or two (per lifetime). In contrast, the average gay male in an ostensibly committed relationship has 5 to 6 partners per year outside of the relationship. The data from the Netherlands, where same sex “marriage” has been recognized for only a few years is controversial, but, I think, worrisome. I believe that, when a full generation of men have been raised in a society where same gender “marriage” is recognized as identical to traditional marriage, the latter shall have, indeed, been weakened, because the concept of marriage as being life’s most sacred (meant in a non-religious sense) committment shall have been greatly weakened. The losers will disproportionately be women and children. Amanda is sick of the semantic argument; but that is really the major issue. The perception in the mind of the public. As Warren says, there should be no unequal treatment under the law. What is important are legal rights and responsibilities; these should be equal with regard to all legally registered relationships between two people, regardless of gender. But there is no constitutional right to a semantic term. Just leave the legal definition of marriage as what it has been for thousands of years (realizing that same sex “marriage” has existed in the past only as a non-enduring curiosity), and use a different legal term to describe same-gender civil unions, and I believe that there would be overwhelming popular support and an end to acrimony.



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LB

posted December 26, 2008 at 12:58 am


The idea that gay marriage or sex is sinful is not a legal issue, but a religious one. Gay relationships are not and should never be illegal. Our constitution protects an individual’s religious freedom, including the freedom to believe that their love has the approval of a higher being. The existing definition of marriage and its significance is also religious by nature, however because it is protected by law, it has become a legal issue.
It seems that the only way to follow the constitution would be to either REMOVE the legal definition of marriage altogether and leave marriage to be a religious rite only (with equal rights for straight, gay, and single people), or give the SAME legal definition to any marriage between two individuals that does not break the law (for those who argue about incest, pedophilia, and polygamy).
I have yet to hear a logical argument for any harm that a gay marriage would cause to any other individual.



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rs6

posted December 26, 2008 at 12:32 pm


Question: where are the ‘clarifications’ by Rick Warren coming from in the above article? Reason I ask is that several people I know who have seen Warren interviews believe he has said that he does not oppose marriage between homosexuals.
Thanks for your time,
rs6



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WW

posted December 28, 2008 at 6:26 pm


LB wrote on 12/26 @ 12:58am: “I have yet to hear a logical argument for any harm that a gay marriage would cause to any other individual.”
I don’t believe you. Cogent arguments and the underlying evidence are voluminous if you but look. Try viewing the work of Sorokin and Unwin for starters. Hint: no culture has EVER survived more than a few generations, including the ‘Golden Age’ of Greece.
But one only needs to view present day W. Europe to see the effect of the non-primacy of heterosexual marriage and the deprivations it causes, primarily to children and women. Roughly, W. Europe can be divided into a northern (Scandinavia, Holland), a middle (UK, Germany, France) and a southern tier (Italy, Spain). The numerous and exaggerated social pathologies in the northern tier where traditional marriage has been reduced by culture/law/social sanction to an afterthought are such strong evidence of social breakdown that you have to purposely ignore them to not recognize what is happening.
Secondly, your argument about polygamy is circular (which ironically belies your statement about “logical argument”). As soon as the basis for defining marriage as something other than one unrelated, adult man, and one unrelated, adult woman, polygamy will become viable again (as in Europe with Islam [and the non Muslim threesome who was recently married to one another, think in Holland]). It has already raised its head in the US among lesbians who desire to live communally to raise their children. Echoes of Plato’s ‘Republic’? You cannot destroy the foundation and expect the structure to stand.
Moreover, your statement that “marriage and its significance is also religious by nature, however because it is protected by law, it has become a legal issue” ignores history- marriage is a natural principle that predates positive law, much like freedom of speech, religion. Your bias toward man as the measure of all things is not hidden very well.
Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind.



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mark

posted December 29, 2008 at 7:23 pm


This guy is really a disgusting creep and idiot (if he believes what he says).



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James Harmison

posted January 3, 2009 at 2:33 am


The comments of marriage is very nice.I have yet to hear a logical argument for any harm that a gay marriage would cause to any other individual.
http://www.relationshipsaver.org/



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AMG

posted January 16, 2009 at 2:30 pm


Rick Warren actually made it worse with his clarifications if you ask me. He should have been satisfied with the damage he did in the first go at it.
He admits divorce is also a sin, like he considers homosexuality to be. So why not go after that next? Why don’t conservative Christians launch a 2010 Prop 9 Banning Divorce in California?
You know, just to be fair.



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Your Name

posted January 19, 2009 at 6:08 pm


Gay marriage should not be considered a sin or even a problem. Our society has changed greatly in the past 5,000 which has caused the redefinition of many words. There is no harm done by changing the definition of marriage. No matter what sex of people involved, everyone deserves the right to enter into a “marriage” binded by love and commitment.



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Your Name

posted January 19, 2009 at 10:05 pm


I plan on being at the Inaugural Event at Nokia Plaza in Downtown L.A. starting at 8:00 AM with a sign that reads “BOOO!!! HOMOPHOBE Rick Warren”. If anyone wants to join me, call me on my cell 213-804-3800. Stephen May



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Marc

posted January 21, 2009 at 4:40 am


Rick Warren is such an ignoramus he can’t even think one sentence ahead of his half-baked statements. Like another person pointed out, how can he say divorce is worse for American families than gay marriage and not support a Prop 9 ban on divorce? And what kind of idiotic excuse is “I am against gay marriage to protect my free speech”? Haha! Special pleading at its finest. What kind of contorted mental twisting is he trying to pull off here? That’s like saying that you want ban Mexicans from being able to get driver’s licenses because it violates your 2nd amendment right to bear arms. ASTOUNDING. Rick Warren, please stop having conversations with an imaginary invisible being that says he loves us so much that if we don’t love him back we will burn in hell for eternity and shut your hate spewing mouth.



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hmhmmm

posted January 25, 2009 at 7:12 am


oh you know what i love about this?
he says that we shouldnt redefine marriage even though on his dumbass website he says that god loves variety.
bleck, bleck.
woman and man after woman and man for 3,000 years? wouldnt you say hes tired of the same thing happening for 3,000 years?
hmm.



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Mary

posted February 3, 2009 at 9:09 am


I think you people should stop criticizing Warren because he clearly says that he will let anyone to choose what to do just as God has left us to make choices, for instance God created us to live holy lives and we don’t honor that fact and God lets us leave or does HE kill us of which is capable of doing than letting us and continue to sin ah! Our duty as Christians is to speak of what is not Godly according to the scriptures and leave everyone to make choice, and as Paul says he lived with everyone according to their way of life so as to win them to Christ. there is no way you are going to win a soul as christian by hating people and criticizing them of their sins as though yourself you holy. Here although Warren says he has many gay friends he does not support their choice of marriage since its contrary to the bible of which is fit since a friend should be able to tell you the truth. and when he tells the truth he will not stop your friendship but he will continue to be your friend coz his intentions were without strings attached to . So give Warren a break. But anyway some things unless the Spirit of God revels them they are hard to understand because even when Jesus was preaching most of the time people did not understand them. So pray for Gods wisdom and you will be able to see as Gods wants us to see!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Brad Bartz

posted February 13, 2009 at 2:21 pm


Gays love to use the “hate” word. This is their round a bout way of trying to judge all who oppose their homosexual lifestyle. They cannot just be happy with their own choice of lifestyle, they have to attack everyone else and try by law to force adults and our kids to agree with them. Are they so Godly when they do this? are they loving and caring and respect the rest of the world’s choice and opinions? of course they do not. They attack with words, no less than adulterers do that are heterosexual. WE ALL SIN!! NO ONE can judge another in a condemning way. We do however, need to heed to the bible ALL that God has commanded, not just the parts we like, and omit the parts that interfere with our self serving lifestyles. remember that before you label US as haters. What makes gays so Godly and right???



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LisaG

posted February 16, 2009 at 2:29 pm


Mr. Bartz, maybe some of us who opposed Proposition 8 did use overheated rhetoric. I agree that not everyone who supported 8 was a “homophobe” or knuckle-dragging bigot. But, please, don’t ask anyone “to heed to (sic} the bible ALL that God has commanded” unless you’re ready to stone adulterers to death and stop eating shellfish.



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Cathie Underwood

posted April 10, 2009 at 1:49 pm


I’m providing this to you in an effort to clarify statements made by Pastor Rick Warren during his April 6th appearance on CNN “Larry King Live.” Several comments he made during that interview have caused confusion which I would like to clarify on his behalf as media representative for Saddleback Church.
Throughout his pastoral ministry spanning nearly 30 years, Dr. Warren has remained committed to the biblical definition of marriage as between one man and one woman, for life — a position held by most fellow Evangelical pastors. He has further stressed that for 5,000 years, EVERY culture and EVERY religion has maintained this worldview.
When Dr. Warren told Larry King that he never campaigned for California’s Proposition 8, he was referring to not participating in the official two-year organized advocacy effort specific to the ballot initiative in that state, based on his focus and leadership on other compassion issues. Because he’s a pastor, not an activist, in response to inquiries from church members, he issued an email and video message to his congregation days before the election confirming where he and Saddleback Church stood on this issue.
During the King interview, Dr. Warren also referenced a letter of apology that he sent to gay leaders whom he knew personally. However, that mea culpa was not with respect to his statements or position on Proposition 8 nor the biblical worldview on marriage. Rather, he apologized for his comments in an earlier Beliefnet interview expressing his concern about expanding or redefining the definition of marriage beyond a husband-wife relationship, during which he unintentionally and regrettably gave the impression that consensual adult same sex relationships were equivalent to incest or pedophilia.

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Ray

posted April 24, 2009 at 3:51 pm


Same sex marriages: What’s the big deal?
First and foremost church and state are supposed to be completely separated when it comes to the rule of law in the United States. So the religious argument that God meant for only man and woman to be together has no bearing here! America is not Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Mormon, Catholic, or any other religion that is out there. And the pantheon of gods can attest that there are hundreds of them. We are a secular capitalistic democracy. That’s it.
If Britney Spears can party it up in Vegas with one of her boys and go get married on a whim and annul her marriage the next day, why can’t a loving same sex couple tie the knot? How could our society grant more rights to a heterosexual one night stand wedding in Vegas vs. a gay couple that has been together for 3, 5, 10 years of true love? The divorce rate in America is currently 50%. I am willing to bet that same sex marriages have a higher success rate than heterosexual marriages.
Maybe I am a man ahead of my time. However, looking at the former restrictions on human rights in our country starting with slavery, women not being able to vote, blacks being counted as two thirds of a human, segregation, no gays in the military (to list a few) all have gone by the wayside. But now here in 2009 same sex marriages are prohibited. I think we will look back in 10, 20, 30 years and be amazed that gays and lesbians did not have the same rights as every one else. How did this ever happen in the land of the free and the home of the brave? Are we really free?



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posted April 28, 2009 at 1:28 pm


First and foremost church and state are supposed to be completely separated when it comes to the rule of law in the United States. So the religious argument that God meant for only man and woman to be together has no bearing here! chat sohbet



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posted September 6, 2009 at 2:27 pm


Sex is nothing more than an itch and is separate from love, sex can also become an addiction. there are all kinds of Love. love for friends, love for children, love for animals,(pets) love for husband or wife.what love are gay talking about??
Sex between a man and a woman is a very secrete thing.
Between a husband and wife which have made a commitment to one another, to build a life together, the fulfillment is procreation of having children in their own image and likeness to build a better part of themselves. Sex can be used for a positive or a vary destructive purpose, we all know that.
IF sex is all about what one can get out of it, then it really don’t matter how one sexually satisfies oneself, whether that is having sex with a sheep(or other animal) or having some other man suck your duck,, if sex doesn’t’ matter how one satisfies oneself, why should we care if one keeps a sheep in the backyard for sexual relief?
Homosexuality is a Hoax, and is an excuses for ones sexual behavior, when i say its a hoax I mean that our government and other organization are lying to us(the people of this great nation)
its a fact that homosexuality is not do to genetics, and if its not a mental disorder then it is a perversion of the ACT of sex.
in 1973. On December 15, 1973, the American Psychiatric Association, removed homosexuality from its official list of mental disorders. The American Psychological Association Council of Representatives adopted the same measure on January 24-26, 1975.
Just as today, the Democrats had reclaimed control of both chambers of the Legislature in 1973
Another lie that the government and organization which promotes homosexuality is that some people are born attracted to the same sex . this is a lie, fact is that a dominate Butch dike lesbian will dress and fix themselves up like a man to attract a more submissive lesbian female to simulate a male and female relationship.? and the male submissive will dress and look like a women to attract a more dominate male type.??
Two man are not equal to a man and woman, their is no equality in the relationship, they are separate in relationship, marriage is govern by the protection of the children involved. also the function between a man and woman are different. Now you can argue that their are similarity’s But not the same. therefore under a different title and category is appropriate. Nobody is denying gay from sharing property and living a life together.. But gays thinks they are entitled to the title of marriage, man and woman equal biological children.
Man has a problem with keeping their sexual organ in the proper place.
— The survey, released last year (2005), showed that 38.2 percent of men between 20 and 39 and 32.6 percent of women ages 18 to 44 engage in heterosexual anal sex. Compare that with the CDC’s 1992 National Health and Social Life survey, which found that only 25.6 percent of men 18 to 59 and 20.4 percent of women 18 to 59 indulged in it. Source



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Katt

posted January 3, 2010 at 11:59 am


Warren is mistaken that historically, a marriage has always been between a man and a woman across cultures. There are many cultures that marry same-sex persons. There are also cultures that have a third, androgynous gender. Gender, man, woman – these terms and the definitions we associate with them are not universal. This is a cultural issue, and our culture has only shown that our definitions, including that of marriage, are influx.



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Your Name

posted January 8, 2010 at 1:28 am


Rick is a sad example of a man who thinks that a gay person is a criminal. Sigh…. We all can do better than that. Gay couples pay higher taxes because of the laws and they PRAY for the opportunity to receive the benefits they pay so dearly for!… Think about what they don’t get and PAY FOR ANYWAYS….. where is the true non-political god? Rick is just interested in selling books and maintaining his personal fallacy….. Follows in Chuck Smith’s foot steps. Let’s get better America, we have the potential.



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posted July 24, 2010 at 9:26 am


I found this issue quite interesting, people need to be able to make their own minds up. I know god has a plan and makes us who we are.
Well thats my thought anyway.



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This is an extremely interesting issue that requires a lot of discussion. People need to have the chance to discuss these issues openly and freely. If you’re looking for a Toronto divorce lawyer then you should search one out online.



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Hen Ideas

posted July 31, 2010 at 8:57 am


I feel from my own observation, that generally people do better in life when they’re not in same-sex relationships. So from that viewpoint I think we shouldn’t promote them as being as good an option as traditional marriages :-/



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Blessed Herbs Australia

posted September 7, 2010 at 1:12 pm


Wow! Sounds like a very interesting topic to talk about. Nowadays, there are still opposite sex marriages that really last. It actually depends on how the couple would compromise each others imperfections. It’s really a matter of understanding and acceptance.
There’s nothing wrong with same-sex marriage as long as the two love each other and willing to work for their marriage despite of some circumstances. Gay marriage even worked to some people. Let’s just hope that soon in time the percentages would decrease for chances of divorce among married couple.



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Self Invest Personal Pension

posted November 26, 2010 at 6:11 pm


Until I see some sort of scientific substantiation for the supposed biology behind this thing homosexuality, I am just going to keep concluding that homosexuality is a social issue much like the example Warren addressed. As such, no, it shouldn’t get the benefit of marriage. It should be called something though, like civil union. If a Christian nation must acknowledge that laws created outside of itself must be upheld. But why would a non-Christian populous want the Christian title “marriage” when they could just call it something different, get the benefits, and avoid a fight? THAT’S the question.



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Self Invest Personal Pension

posted November 26, 2010 at 6:17 pm


“I believe that everyone has a right to choose the way they wish to live, love and be in life, with full respect for everyone’s choices. Within this, we should respect each others needs and view points.”
Absolutely there should be respect among beliefs–absolutely! But I think with this issue, Christians and non-Christians are vying for a new definition of tolerance. Secular society is suggesting that tolerance not only acknowledges beliefs but it also *condones* whereas Christians advocate a definition of tolerance that is respectful while also logical. Not everything can be true at once; relativism is an idea that doesn’t work. It seems gay marriage is Tolerance’s latest territory to be fought over.



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Wayne

posted January 13, 2011 at 8:14 pm


This is funny stuff – sounds like Billy Sunday would take this guy to the woodshed and beat his butt – and say “YOU WANNA BE A PASTOR, START STICKING UP FOR TRUTH”
Absurb



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Linda from Surviveinfidelityinfo.com

posted January 26, 2011 at 8:37 am


I believe that the words gay marriage and christian beliefs are incompatible. Relidious beliefs will continue to br bastardized to ensure the survival of the church.



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Bill

posted February 21, 2011 at 9:54 am


Marriage as religious institution should be defined by the Church. Marriage as defined by the Civil Law is a completely different matter. The problem is that the Church, in this instance, has, and wants to continue to define marriage on a purely religious basis. There is no rational or legal argument that can be other to support the constitutionality of banning gay marriage. That is the only reason that the issue has not yet made it to the Supreme Court – because even the most conservative of Supreme Court judges, if they were true to their call and pledge, would have to agree that it is a violation of our constitution to discriminate against gays by allowing a heterosexual couple to enjoy the benefits of a government sponsored contractual relationship, but deny it to another, based solely on gender.
This is red herring. The fact is, the government cannot define a marital relationship for the Church. Each Church has the religious freedom to honor or recognize a marriage. However, the Church, equally so at least under our constitution, cannot define a marital relationship for the government.



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Best Dental Surgeon in PA

posted March 2, 2011 at 3:10 am


What a really good topic. I enjoyed reading the conversation between warren and staff of beliefnet. I enjoyed it and learn a lot from it. We should have to consider equal rights. Though gay marriage is not accepted in the eyes of God but we can’t change people the way they want and the way they are. I am not saying that I am considerate but my opinion is let’s just respect their rights.
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well, it’s all about love, let them marry. it’s not matter really.
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I totally agree with keisha marriage is a choice. Im in a heterosexual marriage and I feel as though same sex lovers should have the same option to marry if they want to. Now, I am also a christian and feel as though being gay is a sin but so is adultery lying ect ect wich people choose to do without anyone beating them up for it. Noone is perfect and every individual should be allowed to live their life HOW THEY CHOOSE!



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Ye?il çay?n cildi s?k?la?t?r?c? özelli?i ile de zay?flama sürecindeki cilt sarkmalar?n? da önler. FX15 tok tutucu özelli?i ile size do?al diyet yapt?r?r. Özel bi program uygulaman?za gerek yok ama tatl? – hamur i?i gibi ?eylere dikkat edersek daha iyi olur. Cildi s?k?la?t?r?c? özelli?i ile gözler görülür incelme sa?lar. Düzenli kullan?ma devam ederek ideal kilonuza gelebilirsiniz. FX15’in bir ilaç olmad???n? tekrar belirtmek isteriz. ?çeri?indeki üzüm ekstresi sindirimi düzenledi?i için mide rahats?zl??? gibi bir ?ikayetiniz varsa daha da fayda sa?layacakt?r. Yüksek tansiyonu dü?ürücü özelli?i vard?r. FX15’i ideal kilonuza gelinceye kadar kullanman?z? öneririz. Minimum 60 günlük kullan?m önerilir. Daha vermeniz gereken kilolar varsa devam edersiniz. Yediklerinize dikkat etmeniz çok güzel. Ama yerle?ik ya?lar?n vücuttan at?lmas? gittikçe zorla??r. O yüzden ya?lar? parçalay?p vücuttan atmas? için FX15’e devam etmenizi öneririz.. Sürekli bir diyeti b?rak?p ba?kas?na m? ba?l?yorsunuz? Peki buna ra?men de?il bir kilo 100 gram bile veremiyor musunuz? O halde size önerimiz diyet kelimesini kesinlikle unutup küçük ayr?nt?lara özen göstererek fazlal?klar?n?zdan kurtulman?z. Bir dirhem et bin ay?p örter anlay???n?n tarihte kald???n? hepimiz biliyoruz. Ama dirhem dirhem vererek mutluluk veren bir bedene sahip olmak çok zor de?il. Kilo vermek için 50 farkl? de?i?iklikle formda vücuda bir ad?m daha yakla?abilir, sa?l?kl? ve zay?f olman?n tad?na varabilirsiniz. fx15 sayesinde fazla kilo ve ya?lar?n?zdan kurtulabilirsiniz ve gönül rahatl??? ile hemen kullanmaya ba?layabilirsiniz.



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