Steven Waldman

Steven Waldman


BREAKING: Catholic Shift to Obama

posted by swaldman

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The rap on Obama during the primaries was that he couldn’t win because he struggled with Catholics. Apparently, he got past that. Early exit polls indicate he won 54% of the Catholic vote compared to 45% for John McCain. George W. Bush won the Catholic vote 52%-46%.
He also improved among white Catholics, according to the early exit polls. Bush got 56%-43% As of now, McCain lead by just 51%-49%
This was despite an aggressive push by more than 50 Bishops to encourage Catholics to focus on abortion as the central issue.



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Tim

posted November 5, 2008 at 1:23 am


This vote is a repudiation of the Catholic bishops’ interference in this election. Catholics were inspired to look at all issues and make the correct choice for president of the United States. Catholics need not cower to the fear instilled by some bishops who warned of the lost of our immortal souls if we voted for Obama. Hope wins over fear. Isn’t that the true Catholic message?



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Lionel Andrades

posted November 5, 2008 at 6:01 am


Catholic bishops are Americans and are not interfering in the elections.On what basis do you say that they should have hope for the future i.e after they die ?New York Times?
Yes they have hope who know they will not have to hear screams for all eternity,wade through dirty water with vermin (Dante/Teresa of Avila),burn in a fire( Dante/Maria Faustina Kowalska),live in despair( Dante/ YouTube accounts of visit to the next life),see the face of demons non-stop(Dante/Teresa of Avila/Fastina Kowalska etc),where the body in pain does not die(Old and New Testament)and never ever be able to love(Dante/St.Maria Faustina Kowalska).They have hope who will be in a place where they will not hate seeing freinds and realtives suffering the same pains as them, people who once had a false hope.



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Lionel Andrades

posted November 5, 2008 at 6:09 am


The American Bishops were pointing to the reality of Heaven and Hell and the Day of Judgment.This is the Catholic message.
Those Americans do have hope who know they will NOT GO to the place where St.Teresa of Avila, St.Faustina Kowalska, the Italian poet Dante have been. Also many others, as You Tube accounts show, have gone to Hell and returned to tell us that it exists.
They say that Hell has fire, it has water with vermin, one hates the sight of freinds and relatives (who perhaps gave false hope),one is unable to love and there are constant screams,with the non-stop vision of the demons and their activities.



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Thomas X.

posted November 5, 2008 at 6:56 am


Every Catholic that voted for Obama is only Catholic in name, not in being.



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Fr.Damon Urbani

posted November 5, 2008 at 7:06 am


The swing by white catholics merely illustrates that in this particular election there were more significant issues at stake than just abortion rights , gay rights etc.The incumbent Republican regime has without any doubt, over the last 8 years, devastated people’s faith in the GOP to the extent that people generally feel that they cannot be trusted.I honestly beleive that if the GOP is able to rid itself of the selfish , arrogant and dirty tricksters that have done so much to destroy America’s reputation throughout the world and at home , that the party’s moral credibility would be restored. The swing by White catholics toward Obama is extraordinary and not a fixed trend.



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LMG

posted November 5, 2008 at 8:29 am


Father Damon has it right, I think. Many Catholics voted for Obama in order to reject a Republican Party that was not worthy to be returned to office. It was a rejection of the missteps, the incompetence, the lies, the greed, the hypocrisy and the indifference that have been the hallmark of the Bush administration. I hope the pro-life discussion can go forward in a productive way, because I believe if we stop shouting and condemning each other, we have a much better chance of adopting policies that protect unborn life. Pro-life Democrats made progress with their party in this election. They should be commended for doing so.



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Nodjam

posted November 5, 2008 at 8:41 am


I truly feel sorry for Catholics who voted for Obama – I feel they did not understand his policies in the area of life itself. His voting record is very clear – he has voted ‘pro-choice’ at every opportunity. That being said, it is not my place to judge my fellow Catholics, but as Bishop Hermann of St. Louis published recently “Judgement Day is coming – we do not know when it will be, but when it happens, there will be no excuses before God for our actions”.



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Joann F

posted November 5, 2008 at 9:32 am


Father Urbani – Catholics should not be putting their faith in any party or in social programs run without faith but in the teaching and guidance of the Catholic Church. Jesus expects us to have faith in Him. How many lives will be lost now that this pro-death party is in control? What issue, what social program, takes precedence over more than a million lives taken each year? And how many years will this continue now that in all likelihood, as Obama has promised, Supreme Court justices he appoints will uphold every abortion policy? A “Trend?”



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Diosundalo

posted November 5, 2008 at 9:32 am


The Catholic votes that Obama got did not come in a silver plate. That is the result of the jaggernaut, ferocious onslaugh of diabolic powers to block appropriate catechism of four generations of ‘Catholics’ who don’t really understand what it means to be one. They don’t have the slightest idea what Call to Holiness means, nor did they ever hear about it. Remember, the devil is no crude tactician. While he forms the mind and soul of the politicians he wants to use, he forms the minds and souls of those who will vote for them.
Pope John Paul II said that the life of a [Catholic] Christian is a sacrifice. Well, it appears that it has become more literal from hear on.



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Gabriel Espinosa

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:26 am


Father Urbani, you are misguided and misguiding. There can never be a more significant issue than abortion. This is what the church teaches. I think that the fault for this grave error on the part of so many Catholics lies directly in the laps of our Bishops who only during the final months of campaigning finally saw the light and began giving the faithful more direct instruction. Their Citizenship document was an utter failure as it was extremely ambivalent for the average Catholic in the street who has been failed by 40 years of fuzzy catechesis and it strained to tiptoe around clearly proclaiming the truth – THAT CATHOLICS CANNOT VOTE FOR A PRO-ABORTION CANDIDATE AND THAT TO DO SO MAKES ONE COMPLICIT IN ANY FUTURE ABORTIONS FACILITATED BY SAID PRO-ABORTION CANDIDATES POLICIES AND THAT SAID WILLING COMPLICITY SEPARATES A CATHOLIC FROM GOD! What the hell was so difficult about putting it in plain language as I have just done???? What are they so afraid of? losing the precious tax exempt status? Imposing Catholic morality and teaching into the everyday life of Catholics? Rubbish, I say! Now, the doom we have assigned to ourselves has come to pass and millions upon millions of innocent children will suffer unfathomable pain and anguish as they are ripped from their mothers’ wombs or burned alive within said wombs or thrown into a garbage pail to die a cold lonely death. These infants will be there at the judgment of every Catholic who dared to mock God by voting for a man who deigns himself able to replace God in the ordering of life and death. They will be there to accuse those Catholics in front of almighty God and their blood will scream out for justice and I guarantee you that justice will be swift and eternal. I know this because it is clearly stated in the Gospel from the lips of our Lord Himself! Jesus himself said in the New Testament that it would be better for an individual to tie a mill-stone around his neck and be cast into the sea than to harm one of these little ones. Thank God for his unfailing love, without it we would all be lost but let us not forget that there are grave consequences for sin. God help anyone that would harm a child in anyway, shape or form. Catholics have a greater responsibility for they hold within the Church the entire deposit of truth, not just slivers as do all other faiths. Catholics are supposed to lead, not follow. Catholics who voted for Obama have led the people onto the road towards perdition not salvation and all for the almighty dollar!!! Jesus was so right when He asked if H’ed find any faith left at the Second Coming!!



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Kmbold

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:26 am


Obama ran on “change”, which means nothing and everything. Catholics who voted for Obama rejected any moorings of faith and morals and jumped into a deep abyss. God help our nation,



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Robert Waldrop

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:27 am


The Catholic bishops should not be surprised at this swing in the Catholic vote, since they themselves have destroyed the Catholic Church’s witness to life, by their tacit support for our unjust war on the people of Iraq, and the consequent marginalization of the people of Iraq as “non-persons”. They have preached a gospel of moral relativism regarding war, and should not be surprised if people then apply that to other issues.



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GBrown

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:36 am


I’m a pro-life Catholic and 4th Degree Knight of Columbus who volunteered and voted for Obama. I believe that just as they lost perspective in trying to deal with priests who criminally preyed on children, our bishops have lost perspective when it comes to effectively dealing with the issue of abortion. I did not reject “any moorings of faith and morals and (jump) into a deep abyss” – yet am unlikely to have a very productive dialog with anyone who, not knowing anything about me, has already drawn such a conclusion. You presume to possess the fire of the spirit and not the fire of judgment. Good luck with that.



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Fr. Fred Close

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:49 am


The change in the Catholic vote was no accident. Most Catholics in my parish were and are ignorant of the president elect’s extreme anti-life positions. More Catholic voters were deceived than suffered from a lack of formation, though this is the deeper problem. As for the notion that Pro-Life Democrats made progress, the answer hinges on the fate of the so-called “Freedom of Choice Act.”



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George

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:54 am


GBrown – you are neither pro-life nor Catholic, much less a 4th degree Knight. Anyone can write and make such claims. From you comments I know everything about you that needs to be known.



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Al

posted November 5, 2008 at 11:00 am


No one ever said that the republican party was perfect, but it does, at least, try to uphold traditional values. That is difficult in the face of a hostile press and an uninformed citizenry. This democracy cannot endure unless it has informed citizens that are guided by self restraint based on judeo-christian principles.
When you have people who call themselves Catholic but do not follow Church Teachings, you do not have the foundation for a just and prosperous nation. This democracy was founded on the basis that we have rights (life,liberty and pursuit of happiness) endowed by our creator. Without life, you will soon lose the others. With Obama, you have the culture of death (a main tenant of the dem party) and rights endowed by the state. What he will do, assuming he can control his party in the congress, we do not know. He has no track record and his friends are of a marxist,socialist philosophy. You so-called Catholics, who proudly voted for Senator Obama, had better tend to your souls. Christ showed us the way, the Bishops tried to guide you, but you have free will – many are called but few are chosen. May God have mercy on your souls and on America. We may be starting a new country better called the United Socialist States of America. It will fare no better than the USSR.



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Fr. Mike

posted November 5, 2008 at 11:01 am


It really amazes me that so many people still concentrate on attempting to legislate morality. It will never happen. Instead of spending so much time and money on attempting to rid society of abotion through a law tha won’t work, we need to apply the same effort to giving witness to the fact that no one has to be afraid of where they can turn for help. We talk big about abortion being wrong, and it is, but we do so little to make sure that any girl or woman knows where to turn for help. We do relatively little to provide assistance – I know, I have had problems finding help for someone looking for help so that she did not feel the need to have an abortion. If we are true to our faith and discipleship, then we should care very little what the law says. Even if the law were changed there would still be those who found a way for abortion. If we managed to change the law tomorrow, how many would think that they don’t have to do anything else in order to live the message of Jesus? I cannot find one instance in Scripture where Jesus commanded his followers to march on Rome, organize a protest, hire lobyists, call others names, instill fear, condemn people to hell, exclude sinners from God’s love, exclude sinners from the community or write a document. Jesus said – YOU GO! GO AND DO! “When I was hungry,you fed me.” “When I was thirsty, you gave me to drink.” It was not, “when I was hungry, you created a law that said it is illegal to be hungry.” “When I was thirsty, you organized a petition to get a drink for me.” YOU DID IT! So let’s go, let’s choose the right path by choosing the right action. Forget what the law says, forget what society says is okay, forget it all and concentrate on choosing to give example. Choose to do the right thing. Choose to go out on a limb for someone. Choose to be inconvenienced because someone needs help. Choose to simply make the bad laws obsolete because we have chosen to live according to Christ’s law. Choose to show that we have a better way than any human law – we have the law of love.
And follow the example of Jesus – when you disagree – do so with love, stop the hate, stop the name calling, stop the self-righteousness. What did Jesus do? He loved us to death!
Peace!



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Gabriel Espinosa

posted November 5, 2008 at 11:02 am


GBrown, as a Third Degree Knight, I am saddened by your commentary brother. Did you not read the article by Archbishop Chaput in this months Columbia Magazine??? It is apparent that you have been deceived. Read what Archbishop Raymond Burke has to say:
Not to Vote Pro-Life Is to Participate in the Culture of Death: Archbishop Burke
By Jonquil Frankham
ROME, November 4, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) – Regarding his country’s election today, Prefect of the Apostolic Signatura, Archbishop Raymond Burke, said in a just released interview with “Inside the Vatican” that “a good citizen must support and vote for the candidate who most supports the inalienable dignity of innocent and defenseless life, and the integrity of marriage.”
“To do otherwise, is to participate, in some way, in the culture of death which pervades the life of the nation and has led to so much violence, even in the home and in educational institutions.”
When asked by “Inside the Vatican” if he felt “something” was “lacking” in the leadership of other American bishops, the Prefect said that it was not his place to comment on other bishops. However, LifeSiteNews reports that in 2007, as Archbishop of St. Louis, the Prefect “called his brother bishops to task for their silence on the problem of Catholic politicians who support abortion, euthanasia, cloning, embryo research, the homosexual political agenda or any other legislation ‘contrary to the natural moral law.’”
The Prefect’s reticence to reissue his criticism of his fellow bishops may stem in part from a resurgence of outspoken bishops in the current election season, who have defended the right to life of the unborn as being the paramount issue facing the nation.
Rocco Palmo, a correspondent for “The Tablet” and popular Catholic blogger, attributes to Archbishop Burke’s outspoken defense of human life the recent and “unprecedented” surge of US bishops publicly denouncing pro-abortion politics.
In the interview with “Inside the Vatican,” Archbishop Burke said that his “fellow citizens of the United States of America should be deeply concerned about any candidate for the presidency who supports legislation which permits the destruction of human life at its very beginning, the killing of babies in the womb, or legislation which violates the integrity of marriage and family life.”
“The safeguarding and promoting of human life, from the moment of its inception, and of the integrity of marriage must be the fundamental planks of any political agenda.”
The Archbishop also said, however, that he does not intend to “engage in partisan politics.” He wishes “both of the major political parties in the United States of America were more coherent regarding the right to life.” But he notes that the Democratic Party has systematically “put forth and defended a political agenda which is grievously anti-life, favoring the right to procured abortion and “marriage” between persons of the same sex.”
Like many other bishops have done this year, he distinguished between the intrinsic evils of abortion, infanticide, same-sex “marriage,” and cloning and the evils of poverty, war, and pollution. “To make economics or the environment the fundamental political issue, when life itself, in its most innocent and defenseless form, remains unprotected is morally irresponsible,” the Prefect said.
“Inside the Vatican” asked Archbishop Burke about his devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe. The archbishop, who founded the shrine of Our Lady of Guadalupe in La Crosse, WI, answered: “The Mother of God, by her apparitions as Our Lady of Guadalupe to Saint Juan Diego, fostered, in a dramatic way, the respect for all human life. Devotion to Our Lady of Guadalupe brought an end to the cruel practice of human sacrifice, and brought together into one race the Native American and the Europeans who were on the verge of a bloody conflict.”
As LifeSiteNews reported in 2007, during his episcopate in St. Louis, the Archbishop cautioned that unless there is a re-awakening of the national conscience, the United States will soon see “the move to permit infanticide.” Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama refused three times to sign the “Born Alive Infants Act” during his term as Illinois state senator. The Act would have legally defined a fully born baby who had survived an abortion as a “person.”
Towards the end of the interview he said, “I have been praying fervently, through the intercession of Our Lady of Guadalupe, that the citizens of the United States of America will vote, on November 4th, for the safeguarding of the right to life and of the integrity of marriage.”
Archbishop Burke is the retired archbishop of St. Louis MO and former bishop of La Crosse, WI. He was appointed to his present post as prefect of the Apostolic Signatura in June 2008, and is remembered in America for his pioneering of the pro-life episcopal movement.
I don’t claim to know your heart brother, but I do know what being a Knight of Columbus is supposed to represent and I do know whom we are sworn to defend and back even onto death and I take that oath very seriously. Know that you will be mentioned by name (GBrown) at my families nightly rosary from now on. I feel compelled to pray for you.
Gabriel



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GBrown

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:10 pm


Since George doesn’t believe me perhaps he’ll believe others at this link http://www.knightsforobama.org/
Thank you for all prayers, however, also pray that your hearts and minds may be open to the fullness of the possibilities of God’s creation and not only those that you can personally imagine. I’ve worked in the pro-life movement for decades and know there is propaganda on both sides of the issue. But you would call it Truth.



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Thistle

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:17 pm


To work for an abortionist, is to be an abortionist. Otherwise, one is either a hypocrite, or an ideologue. You would not be a moral theologian even though you might be attempting to promote some other social agenda. We are called in our baptism to follow Christ as the God-Man; Christ is not a politician or a contestant on American Idol. I will not judge the abortionist’s soul, but I will analyze his intentions. The intention of an abortion is to end a human process. The process is life because we know all fetuses are animated in the womb. They take in nutrients, make motion, give off heat and waste and are of human form. Their brains are not fully developed, but what adult human being can claim that their’s is? Humility would dictate that all are a work in progress. A fetus is not an inanimate tin can. Humans are given their dignity from God, not by man. Can you vote for man who knows that he is ending the possibility of possibility in the womb? Scripture tells us there is a time for everything, even war, but the last time I read it had no mention of a time for abortion! The fetus is being in time. Passage through the birth canal does not start the system clock for the human being, the procreative act of conception does. In reference to last night’s election, one candidate lived in a prison for five and one half years and gave up his opportunity to go home and instead allowed another to go home. How bad could he have been as a leader? Didn’t Christ provide us a model for such behavior? Another candidate allows for an abortion that produces a live human being gasping for life to die in a metal pan and then is discarded as waste. How good could that model be for leadership?



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Crimson Wife

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:41 pm


I’d like to see the breakdown between those who actively practice the Catholic faith and those who call themselves “Catholics” but rarely or never attend Mass. My dad’s side of the family all consider themselves to be “Catholic” but I’m the only one aside from my grandma who regularly attends Mass. All the others go max a couple times per year.
Not surprisingly, I’m the only one who voted for Sen. McCain (my grandma’s a lifelong Boston Irish Democrat).



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George

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:44 pm


GBrown – You are what you do. No one on the site you listed is Catholic.
You either are Catholic (believe and do Catholic things), or you aren’t.
You can say you are pro-life, while you are killing innocent children, all you what, but your actions tell a different story. Any Knight who has subscribed to the demonic philosophies discussed of your website has been deceived, or is being purposefully deceitful (drawing in the weak minded) and has separated themselves from Christ’s Church. As such, they/you are no longer a ‘practical Catholic’ thus, no longer meet eligibility requirements to be a member of the Knights of Columbus. You bring discredit to yourself, our organization, and Holy Mother Church. I strongly suggest that you do not present yourself for the Eucharist. I am ashamed of you. The Episcopal church awaits your arrival.



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Jim

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:52 pm


I thought the K of C was a Catholic organization, how did these pro-death people get in?



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Wilbur Goolkasian

posted November 5, 2008 at 12:55 pm


I believe the root cause of failing to convenience society of the evil of abortions for over 30 years is a direct result of using incorrect words to state our political position, and failing to use direct terms in attempting to teach the vast majority of catholics what is exactly taking place via abortions. I believe we could stop this holocaust in a short time by doing the following:
1. Henceforth, start using the correct terms for our political positions. We are “Against Murder”, and our opponents are “For Murder”. By using those words we incite the intellect, and the normal rational mind can clearly see what is happening; and the conscious then will influence. In all due respect to the 50 or more Bishops who have been vocal since the Pelosi and Biden debacle, all using terms like Archbishop Burke recently used, such as, “A good citizen must support and vote for the candidate who supports the inalienable dignity of innocent and defenseless life…” In all honesty, theological terms do not resonate with the average catholic, and the proof is our 30 years of failure.
2. The average catholic must be spoon fed on some moral issues, and then it consequences will hit their intellect. We must tell society that killing the unborn fetus in the womb is Murder; and we must keep using that word in sermons and all communications. We could successfully compare this holocaust to Hitler’s holocaust. Nobody at that time in history would have use theological terms to describe why his destruction of life was wrong. We all recognize that his acts were acts of Murder, pure and simple; and our consciousness registered the full disgust for his acts.
3. When we use direct and correct terms for this killing, we discard the term abortion as the “affect”, but rather the means of killing. As we can now realize, the average citizen does not equate the word “abortion” to anything than a benign term. Remember, we usually use that term such as “to abort doing something, like a missile firing, and the like”. I believe when we let the word “Murder” sink in to the intellect, we then can correctly describe the grave mortal sin it is for each of who vote for that killing.
4. I believe a wide spread campaign by the USCCB to prepare a document for all under their authority is necessary, and then mandate that this new phrasing of what is taking place be preached-taught at all Mass’s for at least one month, and after several months, again mandate it for another month at each Mass, the News Media will pick up on this and it will mushroom into a hugh public debate to determine whether it is really murder. This of course will result in a firm conclusion that the Catholic Church is correct, and in all likelihood convenience most of our politicians of the true holocaust that has taken place. In all likelihood, the Roe v. Wade law will be nullified through the legal process, and new laws in most States will forbid the abortion process to continue.
In conclusion, we have now seen how dull the consciousness of many in America has become, and it can be again lighten by using terms that nobody can deny, and easily to understand rather than theological terms. Those theological terms would properly be made in debates to prove that killing a fetus (infanticide) is in fact Murder. The average citizen, high school age through early adult life, has a hugh impact in voting and they have no clue of our true meaning of theological terms expressing the diginity of life.
Please prayerfully consider my suggestion, since I have personally had good results in chastising some who merely looked upon this issue as a woman choice with no insignificant moral implications.
Wilbur Goolkasian



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Looking for real Christianity

posted November 5, 2008 at 1:02 pm


Gosh – I thought the Catholic Church was still for sinners. I guess I did not realize churches are filled with perfect people who exclude membership to the less-than-perfect.
I guess Jesus’ words “I have come to call sinners, not the self righteous” and “well people do not need a doctor, sick people do” are obsolete. I have not been paying attention when the Bible was re-written.



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Mary

posted November 5, 2008 at 1:06 pm


Yes, we can. Yes, we can help people and maybe provide better health care for our people. We can share with all people and not just give tax breaks for the wealthy. Yes, we can get beyond hate, racisim, and shows like disgusting Fox News. Yes, we can live the radical and loving message of Jesus Christ. Yes, it is time to move on. Abortions will hopefully lessen with the care and love and support we will work to provide. All life is precious. Let’s prove it by our love instead of our rhetoric. The push by some Catholic Bishops and priests to vote on abortion as the only issue this election was so disappointing and shallow. I felt let down by them. My sister who is Down’s Syndrome and 37 years old is blessed to be taken care of by my loving lifelong Democrat parents. We will take care of her after my parents can no longer care for her. We all must pitch in to help young families.
Why is it that Ruppert Murdoch brings us conservative Fox News and then all of the other filthy shows as well that poor people end up watching. We are what we watch and the filth is promoted for a reason…to keep the downtrodden down.



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Livia

posted November 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm


Self righteousness is not attractive. Stop talking and starting loving.



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GBrown

posted November 5, 2008 at 2:26 pm


Well it’s clear now that 0% of Catholics voted for Obama because any who did are no longer Catholic. Any priests who voted for Obama, you’re no longer Catholic. Yep that’s the kind of productive dialog that will help address the culture of death.
The 5/9ths of the Supreme Court that used to be Catholic – must also no longer be Catholic.
Who are the Real Catholics? George and the Pope I suppose – but we can’t be sure. George, is the Pope Catholic?



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Your Name

posted November 5, 2008 at 3:41 pm


The phrase “self righteousness” is used some times against Christians as an attempt to shut off systemic dialog. No one here is being self-righteous because the righteousness we pursue is for the community and not for oneself. The righteousness I pursue is an altruistic building up of the community and not for a dismissal of individual dignity. If we recognize Oneself as Another (Paul Ricouer) and stay focused on the “we” and not the “I”, I believe we can make judgments. Who would better know the sin than the sinner? By the way, the stock market today is dumping (taking loses) on all of the President Elect’s policy intentions. In other words, coal stocks and health care stocks etc. are taking a pounding today (-4.41%). Yes, money isn’t everything but the poor don’t get helped from other empty wallets. And guess what, your parish money market investments are taking a pounding against the economic policies that the President elect explicitly talked about implementing in the last week of the campaign. Intentions have real consequences. We voted yesterday, the DOW will be voting the next few weeks.



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Thistle

posted November 5, 2008 at 3:49 pm


Last post “Your Name” was from Thistle. Sorry about that.



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Richard

posted November 5, 2008 at 3:49 pm


The Catholic Church (despite Nancy Pelosi’s incorrect interpretation which was corrected by bishops) has been clear on abortion, euthanasia, poverty and just war. Its too bad so many Catholics know so little about the actual teachings of the Catholic Church and inform their consciences from elsewhere that they are unable to understand the moral differences between each as taught by the Catholic Church. What I have seen, heard and read in statements from many so called Catholics, indicates relativism at best, and complete ignorance of the teachings of the Church at worst. To call oneself “Catholic” and to be ignorant of the teachings of the Church is disingenuous (and can even be characterized as sin).
The Bible is our source, but there is more for Catholics to know. The Catechism of the Catholic Church and the Code of Canon Law is available in many languages at http://www.vatican.va. and there are a few approved books (to be sure, look for the Impratur and Nihil Obstat, if they aren’t there, it isn’t approved by the Church as being accurate on Church teachings) that provide the dogma (here’s one: http://www.trosch.org/the/ottintro.htm) Once a Catholic reads, studies and prays on this information with an open mind, they will have the fundamental beginnings of a sufficiently informed conscience and an understanding of what Catholics must believe. With this understanding as a basis and context, it should be easy to recognize why abortion was the single greatest issue in this election for Catholics. If you disagree, then you need to reread the information I mentioned above; and above all: pray.
Pax vobiscum,
Richard



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LMG

posted November 5, 2008 at 4:24 pm


Abortion is infanticide. I believe this, and I will say it to anyone who will listen. But I don’t see that there is an unequivocally “right” vote, because both of these candidates have participated in this evil. So it’s a question of degree – and I know people don’t want to hear that. People want to hear that one candidate is absolutely right on this issue, and the other absolutely wrong.
McCain’s position on abortion is more palatable than Obama’s, but is not a Catholic postion. McCain believes in legal exceptions in cases of rape and incest. He has not called for a halt to in vitro fertilization (has anyone done that?). He has supported fetal tissue research. He does not endorse a constitutional amendment to protect the unborn. He believes that Roe v Wade should be returned to the states (making it a states’ rights rather than human rights issue).
Yes, McCain votes pro-life, and that’s good. But Rick Santorum points out McCain’s lack of leadership at http://www.lifenews.com/nat3612.html. Santorum says: ‘ “But, I can tell you, inside the room, when we were in these meetings, there was nobody who fought harder not to have these votes before the United States Senate on some of the most important social conservative issues, whether it’s … abortion or the like,” he said about McCain.’
By the logic of the “real” Catholics, McCain too has blood on his hands. So you will say the lesser of two evils. But then we are already equivocating.



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A Rose By Any Other Name

posted November 5, 2008 at 4:44 pm


Let’s see Thistle – - you defend self righteousness, even though Jesus spoke against it in the Gospels, as something that is done for the community. The meaning of self righteousness in Scripture referes to one’s relationship with God and others. Then you go on to use stock market events to attempt to verify your own righteousness. I guess it’s just one of those things that make you go hmmm! Self righteousness by any other name is still self righteousness. Besides, if one speaks in the “we” and not the “I” isn’t that just another attempt to make oneself appear to be in right relationship by virtue of the protection of the imaginary “others” who you want to make appear as though they are on your side?



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Just asking!

posted November 5, 2008 at 4:54 pm


Richard – is your definition of aan open mind one that ultimately comes to the same conclusion as you? Isn’t that a close mind that is going to only trap what is fed into it without the chance to let anything go? You make conscience sound like a data card that is inserted into the mind, dumps its content and makes the machine perform in the intended way. It seems a bit closed minded to presume that as long as everyone reads the same information, then the only right thing is to come up with the same conclusion. Again, isn’t that actually the definition of being closed minded? Just asking!



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Mary

posted November 5, 2008 at 4:56 pm


The past several elections the republicans play the guns, gay, God and abortion card…and it has worked in the past, but not this time. What a bunch of phony balonys. This year marks the 35th anniversary of Roe vs. Wade. No one has done anything about it although they do alot of drum rolling and ranting during the election season about it. It really gets the religious right all riled up. Sorry, but it’s true.



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deacon joseph b pellegrino

posted November 5, 2008 at 5:06 pm


dear editor
50 bishops declared difinitively the proper moral, doctrinal position, but as usual the document from the usccb was filled with political jargon and immoral ideology to give voters the belief that the word of God and 2000 years of Catholic Theology was merely an option. To the usccb it is not the 10 commandments but the 10 suggestions.
Deut 30: 19. I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
God forgive our shepherds
deacon joseph baptist pellegrino



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George

posted November 5, 2008 at 5:14 pm


GBrown – Yep, me & the Pope, we’re Buds! Thanks for noticing. Perfect, no I’m not. Neither is the Pope. How do I know? Because the Pope goes to confession. You don’t need to go to confession though. Why would you? The murder of innocent children is not a sin – is it? Consequently, the rapes, incest, premarital sex, etc. that leads to the inconvenient conception of a child of God, who is far less precious to God than you are, are also nothing to be concerned about. Hey, you could even earn another Sir Knight badge by teaching a teen CCD class about the joys of all sorts of sexual activity they could try. You could pass out condoms and tell them that if that fails, come to you and you will gladly take them to murder God’s child. It’s okay with God – as long as it makes you feel good! Jesus is okay with that – and darn proud of you too for leading His children into learning the joys of the flesh. So pin on that badge my friend!
Seriously – I knew I had you pegged as a non-catholic. 4th degree Knights are honorable people who know the responsibilities of being a practicing Catholic. It is true though that morality cannot be legislated – however, immorality sure can be. Wait until Obama orders you to further violate your principles (if you have any)… When “The One” tells you to go jump off a cliff… The good follower that you are – Good-bye.
Who are the real Catholics? Those who know and do the will of the Father.
Who are the non Catholics? Those who know and do the will of the demonic.
Which one are you? No answer is required – you will be known by your deeds.



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JerHosler

posted November 5, 2008 at 10:36 pm


Quite an array of observations here. Many of them not very Christian in themselves. Many remarks quite judgemental. I don’t suppose too many know that Pope Benedict XVI sent a personal message to President Barack Obama congratulating him and offering his prayers for him and all the people of the United States. (He did not exclude those who voted for Obama in case someone thinks he did.) He prayed that “the blessing of God would sustain him (Barack Obama) and the American people so that with all people of good will they could build a world of peace, solidarity and justice.” When the pope’s spokesman, Father Lo9mbardi, was asked if the pope mentioned any specific issues he was concerned about, Fr. Lombardi responded: “peace, solidarity and justice.” The Rome based missionary news agency ran the news under the headline: I’M HAPPY FOR THE VICTORY OF BARACK OBAMA. A member of the Pontifical Institute was also quoted as saying that there were three reasons for satisfaction with the results of the election:
1. Obama will give a positive impression of the U.S. at a time when America needs it.
2. The election of the first black U.S. president offers a lesson on racial equality…..for people all around the world.
3. Obama’s closing statement: “God bless America.” which would not be possible in Catholic Italy (where abortion is also legal).
270 Catholic bishops in the United States do not agree on aspects of the morality of voting for a pro-choice candidate. One bishop publicly announced that he would vote for Obama. How is it that so many Catholics are so sure about their opinions regarding the teaching of the Catholic Church on a matter that has not been taught infallibly……and theologians have different points of view as well. Be honest. Be informed. Be civil. Be Christian…..and if you are a Catholic, don’t say things that embarrass other Catholics
for whatever reason. Follow the example of Benedict XVI, the first Bishop among all the bishops of the world.



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Thistle

posted November 6, 2008 at 10:57 am


A little human sharing with you all. “Thistle” relates to the area of upstate New York where I live. The old Iroquois language is used to name many of our viliages, towns, and rivers. “Chenango” is an Oneida word (one of the five nations of the Iroquois meaning Turing Stone) means land of the bulltistle. Believe me, in the summer they are everywhere—in the gardens, fields and flower boxes. Very tough plant to eradicate. On self righteousness. In a most gracious way, thank you Rose, you cause me to explain further. The book Oneself as Another by Paul Ricouer is obviously not read by many in America. It is a European attempt to fully define altruism. Ricouer is a very gracious and spiritual man from France. I would also suggest a reading of Ricouer’s work on Metaphor. Great fundamental work on terse language and the use of metaphor and simile. A defense of self righteousness was not offered. “We” used here in is an altruistic context. In other words, I understand the failings of others, because many of them I also have. A ready at hand paradigm of the reader (preconceived notion), which is a form of self righteousness, was offered in this “systemic dialog” and possibly further clarification would be helpful. The concept of discernment leading to decision was implied. In the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ingatius, specifically the 19th Annotations, scripture, prayer, and spiritual direction are used to bring one closer to what God has intended. Focus in the Exercises in on pronouns other than yourself (Oneself As Another). Discernment within the Exercises was a key component in finding God’s intention; therefore, my own decision making in life has enhanced. If we cannot judge, then evil and good collapse into the moral relativity we experience today in America. The stock market is a metaphor for another mind that is out there in the world watching human events and certainly making metaphysical decisions. Only a tad of the world here is offered, but I did take advantage yesterday and sold short on a prediction of a down day. Discernment led me to wait four weeks after exhaustively comparing the economic philosophies of the two candidates and target the move—forgive me, I made a judgment. I discerned the data and intentions, decided to act, planned, then executed the decision—my most basic human instincts. Notice the aforementioned “mind” does not imply the deity. There is a pragmatic aspect to large human systems in life—stimulus, and then the reaction. In regards to Others, they are not imaginary, unless you as the “another” is and I don’t believe that because you have responded. I think of all who post here as another “other” who share my compassion, empathy, sympathy, concern and respect for all life. We need as Catholics to somehow convey our spirituality into the philosophical concept of altruism. Then the secular world’s stiff arm of “self righteousness” against the Christian effort will lose effect. I have a conundrum that some of you may help me with—if you knew me you would know that I am impishly teasing you out. This is Christian contexted and not denominational, but it is a real situation. Why is it that when I visit my former home in western Ohio, the land between Columbus and Dayton, the people from my mother’s old Methodist Church greet me with “we are so glad to see you, you mother was a sweet person and our best friend.” The Church is well maintained, the families intact through the generations and their purse serves the infrastructure of the church at the same time that the poor are more than adequately considered. And here is the heart break. I come home to upstate New York (a lost empire, pun on the Empire State) and the first question I get at the Parish finance meeting at my father’s church is: “our account has lost big money, we have lost $xxx,xxx, what are we going to do?” My parish is in a fight with our reconfiguration parish just down the block in an upstate city. Their pastor won’t speak to ours, our people won’t go to their functions and devotions, and the list of stuff like this is grievously long. Why is this?



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George

posted November 7, 2008 at 12:41 pm


JerHosler – Your post appeared to be quite judgmental. Of course we pray for world leaders. You need to read the words that were written. He prayed that “the blessing of God would sustain him (Barack Obama) and the American people so that with all people of good will they could build a world of peace, solidarity and justice.” All people of good will they could build a world of peace, solidarity and justice.”
These are not meaningless words. Do you think abortionists are people of good will? Do you stand in solidarity with them as they plunge the scissors into the brains of God’s most innocent children? Does this activity bring justice to that child? Do you gain a since of peace from the death of one of God’s children? Maybe you do? I think though that the Pontiff’s prayers are that Obama and his followers will WAKE UP to the damage that they are doing. What will it take for you to wake up? Will it be that you or someone you love is killed or betrayed by this ungodliness – or will you (hopefully) wake up when you are the one that is expected to do the killing/betrayal of your loved ones. You cannot serve two masters. Go ahead and try though – then judge for yourself.
“One bishop publicly announced that he would vote for Obama.” Isn’t that ironic…
One Apostle betrayed Christ. So, do we follow the example of Peter, or Judas? God gave us all free will, He only asks us to choose Him. What will you do?



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Thistle

posted November 7, 2008 at 1:35 pm


Deacon Joe’s remark “its not the 10 commandment but the 10 suggestions” is a definitive and accurate description of Catholic confusion on priorities of moral living today. Deacon, I pray for your vocation and the calling. Last night I attended another parish re-configuration meeting. And in the spirit of the secular election season, there were the two camps: pro-choice and pro-life. Needless to say nothing was accomplised but I did observe the human dynamics. The traditional folks had coherent ideas, but the pro-choice people argued amoungst themselves as well as with everyone else. Bravado about standing up against the “bullying” of the Church was celebrated. If two thousand years of reflection and devotion doesn’t resonate with the souls of the Church, then we have morphed into the Catholic club (notice the lower case c). The first thing moral relativity casts aside is tradition; the formost failure of realtivity is chaos. And that is a phenomenological observation and not judgement.



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Thistle

posted November 7, 2008 at 1:53 pm


Just read your post George. I sincerely thankyou for your reflection. I cannot believe that some people in my parish are against the death penalty but are pro-choice. I’ve tried to reslove this contradiction for some time now and can only conclude that the damage is done unto this community. Tradition is now replaced by vogue. The very thing St. Paul wrote the epistles to warn against.



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Richard

posted November 7, 2008 at 2:54 pm


Just Asking,
No I’m not saying you have to agree with me or my views But to form a correct Catholic position is to have an authentically informed Catholic conscience. To do that, start reading, studying and praying over the documents of the Church such as the Dogma, Catechism and Canon Law and the writings (bulls, encyclicals of Popes, decrees by various Church authorities and assemblies) of the the Church.
As far as my conclusion regarding abortion, guess I’m in good company as Popes Benedict XVI, John Paul II and Paul VI have stated as much. Do a search on: vatican pope abortion you’ll find info on this. I suppose you and a few others here know more about Catholic teaching on matters of faith and morals than our current Pope and his predecessors?
As to being closed minded, the Church espouses universal truths. If you accept these (for the record, all Catholics are required to accept the Dogma in its entirety), and inform your conscience authentically with these, there is no question on abortion, only a statement of fact that indicates the position of our current and recent Popes who’ve had to confront abortion. Abortion is a human intrusion into the natural cycle of life with the intent to end, and results in the end, of a viable human life. If the abortion procedure is not performed, what is the highest probability outcome? Similar arguments support the Church’s position on contraception, which so many “catholics” disregard and “disagree” with.
The Catholic Church is not a democracy. So the Church’s universal truths and teachings will not change on abortion, contraception, pre-marital sex, homosexual acts, same-sex unions, woman priests, just war, and other modernist / relativist dissident “hot button” topics no matter how much you protest, complain, misrepresent or wish it to be so. If you can’t accept this or the teaching authority of the Church on matters of faith and morals and through your own words and deeds of defiance and disobedience, you may have excommunicated yourself: excommunication latæ sententiæ
Pax vobiscum,
Richard



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JerHosler

posted November 10, 2008 at 2:03 pm


George – I think you need to follow your own advice and read the words that were written……even as you quoted them. “the blessing of God would sustain him (Barack Obama) and the American People (no reference to excluding those who voted for him) so that with all people of good will (presumably from all around the world) they (Barack Obama and the American people) could build a world of peace, solidarity and justice.”
Four years ago, Pope Benedict XVI, when he was Cardinal Ratzinger, wrote in a N.B. (Nota Bene….Note Well) added to a letter written to a U.S. Bishop: “When a Catholic does not share a candidate’s permissive stand on abortion and/or euthanasia, but votes for that candidate for other reasons, it is considered remote material cooperation, which can be permitted in the presence of proportionate reasons.”
To refer to the one bishop who said he would vote for Barack Obama as a Judas is quite uncalled for. I am sure there were other bishops, priests and catholic lay people who likewise voted for Barack Obama with informed consciences according to the principle enunciated by the pope himself, a principle that was reflected by FAITHFUL CITIZENSHIP, paragraph 35. You may not agree with their interpretation of the principle, but that is beside the point….. they do not have to agree with your interpretation and that is their right and well as yours. But that is no reason for you to not only be judgemental……but condemnatory as well.



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Your Name

posted November 13, 2008 at 3:44 pm


fr mike__if i am not mistaken it was the supreme court of the united states of america, that in fact legislated morality. this is even more amazing since they are of the judicial branch of our government not the legislative branch. what has happened to “government of the people by the people for the people”. it seems to have gone the way of the church, the people no longer matter.____God Bless You fr mike__deacon joseph



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deacon joseph

posted November 13, 2008 at 4:29 pm


Jerhostler____Please do not confuse statements, and or articles by theologians as doctrinal or canonical.__Positively do not accept their tolerance as over writing “Gods Law”__Thou shall not Kill, or Christs’ difinitive statement in Matthews Gospel__Matthew 18____ 1. At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?__ 2. And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,__ 3. And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.__ 4. Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.__ 5. And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.__ 6. But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.__7. Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come



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JerHosler

posted November 14, 2008 at 10:50 am


deacon joseph – I believe the pope is the moral authority who best represents Christ in the world…….not you.



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Your Name

posted November 14, 2008 at 12:13 pm


P.S. to my previous comment to deacon joseph: Even the devil can quote scripture…..as he tried to convice Christ Himself.



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Your Name

posted November 14, 2008 at 4:49 pm


jerhostler__i believe you stated josef ratzinger speaking as theologian indicated his position on proportionate reasons, he was not speaking as the vicar of Christ. Please do not confuse my statements, or the official teachings of the Pope as Christs’ Vicar here on earth.__This Pope and those before him have spoken quite clearly on the respect for life, and the protection of the most vulnerable.__Furthermore Cardinal Ratzinger was very clear on proportionate reason. I do not believe that our Holy Father would accept social justice as proportionate, especially when by taking innocent life we are in fact denying any semblance of justice to that child of God.____God Bless You__deacon joseph



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deacon joseph

posted November 14, 2008 at 4:59 pm


jerhostler
P.S. satan did not quote scripture he misquoted tempting Jesus to seek His will and comfort, rather than Gods will. Hmm sound familiar
peace be with you
deacon joseph



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Your Name

posted November 14, 2008 at 11:50 pm


True, it was not when he was pope……but he has not denied it or canceled it. Likewise what he said was echoed by the bishops of the U.S. in FAITHFUL CITIZENSHIP 2008, paragraph 35. 98% of the bishops had agreed on FAITHFUL CITIZENSHIP and the point that we are not one issue voters………yes, about one third of them went on to do and say something differently but since we are talking about VOTING one can morally and rightfully follow his or her conscience since there are plenty of bishops and theologians supporting them. One does not have to follow the strictest interpretation when there are other less strict and valid interpretations. And if you didn’t notice, the word voting does not appear in the scriptures and I would prefer not to depend on your interpretation of connecting the dots on this matter.



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JerHosler

posted November 15, 2008 at 11:12 am


P.S. If you read Matthew 4/6 you will see and be able to read that the devil quoted the scriptures correctly, word for word.



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Your Name

posted November 15, 2008 at 3:47 pm


Pius the X, and the XI, as well as Leo XIII, warned the Church about the errors of modernism. Since then neo modernism, post modernism, secular humanism, relativism have completely inundated the Church, further discussion is useless. We have all made our choices and with those choices come responsibility and accountability, in the end we have not the wisdom to decide that will be up to God. When we all kneel before the judgement seat of our Lord Jesus Christ the truth will finally be known not before.____God Bless Us All__deacon joseph



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Your Name

posted November 15, 2008 at 3:50 pm


P.S.
psalm 91 is a promise to God’s people
Citation: – PSALMS 91
Synopsis: – Praise is the business of the sabbath. (1-6)
The wicked shall perish, but God’s people shall be exalted. (7-15)
deacon joseph’s last transmission



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JerHosler

posted November 15, 2008 at 6:46 pm


Sounds all rather self-righteous to me……and I think Christ condemned that quite specifically……kinda went out with a wimper and running backwards, hiding behind some papal generalities and an old testement scriptural quotation that either has nothing to do with the discussion or is highly arrogant.



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Sam van Rensburg

posted December 21, 2008 at 11:54 pm


I expect the new president to create a polarization and not a unification of the United States. Unfortunately so much of politics is based on race. Benjamin D’Israeli said that ALL politics are based on race. I suppose he meant that we all have an ethnic agenda when it comes to the body politic. I am not advocating that this is necessarily a bad thing. I am saying that many fence sitters will now start choosing a side… a wonderful catalyst to the millions of apathetic Americans who have allowed themselves to be dispossed from their birthright. Every tribe or ethnic group has a devine right to live and procreate their genotype. To remove those conditions is tantamount to genocide, is it not? As I look around me I see the last bastions of what once was America crumbling before the new world. Sad. Perhaps Obama will be the one who brings sanity to the majority American voter for future elections… if we have any.



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