Reformed Chicks Blabbing

Reformed Chicks Blabbing


Michael Moore: “Capitalism is anti-Jesus”

posted by Susan Johnson

I’m sorry but I’m having trouble taking this guy seriously since he has to be in the 1% of the wealthy, given the amount of money his films generate. So, when he says things like this, I can’t get over the fact that he’s talking about himself:

I think they exposed themselves to a lot of middle class people who did believe in their system and they showed everybody the Ponzi scheme that it is. It’s set up like a pyramid, so that the richest 1% at the top have more financial wealth than the 95% beneath them.

But it’s this comment that I find particularly ridiculous:

I started out wanting to explore the premise of capitalism being anti-American, and anti-Jesus, meaning it’s not a Democratic economy. And it’s not run with a moral or ethical code. But when the crash happened, it added a third plot line: not only is capitalism anti-American and anti-Jesus, it doesn’t work.

So, Michael Moore is concerned that our economic system isn’t Jesus-complaint? Um…since when has this been a criteria for an economic system as far as Moore is concerned? I wonder what economic system Moore thinks would have the Jesus’ seal of approval, the political system that Moore thinks can be used for economics as well? Would that system be acceptable to Jesus? We’ll, if you looked at the only nation that God established, you’d see that it was a monarchy under a theocracy. Not something Moore would advocate, I’m sure.
BTW, I thought Moore’s brilliance was on display in the answer to this question: How can Detroit by saved? Tear down houses. Yes, that will have a major impact on their economy.
(via)



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Alicia

posted September 24, 2009 at 11:10 am


Interesting profile, and interview. Essentially, Moore comes across as what used to be called a “crank” – but he is a crank who made it big.
I’m a “two cheers for Capitalism” kind of person, but I agree with this statement by Moore:
“[The wealthiest Americans] proved that the free market is something they really don’t believe in, they don’t believe in competition, they actually do believe in socialism, that we the people should use our tax dollars to keep them in their mansions and their yachts.”
I think this latest crisis proved that those who run our society believe in socialized risk and privatized profit. It’s time for better (not more) regulations, because you can’t trust these people to police themselves. They never have and they never will.



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Robert Morwell

posted September 24, 2009 at 11:58 am


One of my theology professors once said that capitalism is “sin, systematized.” His point being that it is, to a significant extent, built upon natural human greed and takes advantange of that motivation. To the extent that capitalism promotes and rewards greed, it is “anti-Jesus.”
As the Bible notes, “The love of money is the root of all evil.” (Actually, I think there are some other roots, as well, but it is certainly a major one.)
But, alternate systems are not without their major flaws. Having visited the former USSR on many occasions, I can tell you that the problems with communism is that it denies that human beings are basically greedy…and thus falls victim to that greed even more terribly. Despite all its idealistic talk about being a workers’ paradise, the place was, in fact, a monopoly run by an elite and very powerful few who were answerable to no one, because they also owned the state which made no effort to control them. They were ubercapitalists.
Pure capitalism inevitably leads to monopolism and corruption. It must have a countervaling force, a truly democratic government that prevents monopolism and deceptive, corrupt practices. We didn’t have enough of that oversight in recent years, and we got AIG and Bernie Madoff as a result. Now, we have to figure out how to properly oversee and reign in the greed that nearly led to the destruction of of our capitalist society.



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New Age Cowboy

posted September 24, 2009 at 12:10 pm


Michele,
I sincerely ask you the following: Do you think going on and on about politics on Beliefnet has brought anybody to know Jesus Christ?
It seems that your Reformed perspective is simply an uninformed/ignorant kind of conservative populism, which has nothing to do with Jesus at all. It’s psuedo-Christianity masked in petty politics.
You wrote: “…if you looked at the only nation that God established, you’d see that it was a monarchy under a theocracy…”
Israel was not led just by kings. There were also patriarchs, prophets, and judges. So, the “monarchy under a theocracy” is just pure baloney.
And, the Kingdom that God established on earth, if you’re a follower of Christ, is actually in your heart. Love is the Gospel; not capitalism. In fact, if you know your Bible, the early Christians tried holding all things in common (sounds a lot like Socialism to me).
Capitalism seems to be your sacred cow.
This Republican zeal on the part of “Reformed”/Evangelical types is actually turning people away from Christ.
Evangelicals had there sacred cow with the likes of Bush and it was a disaster. Don’t think that the millennial generation has failed to catch on to the Evangelical zeal for things like deregulation, war, and conflict. That’s why millennials come across as liberal when surveyed.
I’ve been involved in Evangelical ministry… and because of this Evangelical love-affair with right-wing politics, not many young people outside rural and insulated suburban areas really care for your brand of Christianity. Your brand of Christianity has peaked and is now dissipating. (I would actually call what you peddle – psuedo-Christianity.)
If you continue in your political zeal, your seminary stint will be a complete waste, and all you’ll end up having done with your life is preaching a capitalist christ to the choir.
I’ve seen the fruits of your sacred cow.
Jesus, protect me from the psuedo-Christians!



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Julie

posted September 24, 2009 at 1:28 pm


I agree with Michael Moore, Robert Morwell, and New Age Cowboy.
Like Sarah Palin and other so called conservatives that continue to echo Reagan’s failed policies, Michele continues to dito head the right wing platform that has been proven to be false. Eventually the history books will be updated to reflect the damage that unregulated markets and capitalism have done to our country.
Michele should try educating herself rather than only spewing right wing talking points. There are numerous reports from reliable sources that clearly demonstrate the “redistribution of wealth” to the wealthy. The following is one of many reports that provides considerable support for how greed has ruled:
In Sickness and in Wealth
How America’s rising income inequality figures in to the debate over health care.
http://tinyurl.com/yafv6gh
Michael Moore is the opposite of a suave personality. From the couple times I have seen him on the Larry King Show, Moore appears to be genuinely concerned for others. While he has said some stupid things, I think his intentions are good. People should know more about him before judging by the few second clips they have seen on TV or the opinions expressed on blogs.
Just a couple days ago, Eric Cantor (R-VA) told a woman with cancer and no insurance to seek charity assistance. I heard another predominant Republican make a similar comment in a Town Hall to a woman crying while explain her husband’s medical condition. If all the individuals that consider themselves to be Christians actually followed what Jesus taught us, Cantor’s advice would have meaning.
Michele and others would rather let capitalism rein free to allow insurance executives to make huge salaries while people die from no or inadequate health insurance.
I am sure her dito head opinions would change if it was her life or someone she loves life that were in jeopardy. I recommend reading Steven Waldman’s latest blog regarding the number of individuals that have died as the result of no health insurance:
Battle Fatalities in the Fight Over Health Care Reform
“If you take the low end of that estimate, more Americans died from congressional inaction on health care than died during those years as a result of the first Gulf War, the Iraq War, the Afghanistan war, the 9/11 attacks, Hurrican Katrina and all of the nation’s homicides– combined.
If you take the high end, that means that since health care reform was defeated in 1994, about as many Americans have died from lack of insurance as died in battle during all of the wars in American history (including the Civil War and World War II) — combined.”
Michele – Jesus was so intent on us helping the needy that he repeated it several time, which clearly indicates the importance he placed on helping others. Yet Michele and other hypocrites, such as the individuals at the Value Voters Summit, completely ignore what Jesus said. A Christian follows the teachings of Christ.



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Les

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:11 pm


Let’s see…capitalism is the evil, so lefties say. Question: How are you even on the internet making these statements? Internet provider like ATT? Verizon? Charter? Do those capitalist entities make money? Do the execs make large salaries? You folks probably should protest them by disconnecting from the internet.



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John

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:12 pm


I second New Age Julie and Cowboy on this one. You really can’t look seriously at Jesus in the gospels, or at the OT prophets and teachingts, and come away feeling very good about the growing disparity between rich and poor that capitalism has wrought in the U.S.



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John

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:13 pm


Sorry. That should be New Age Cowboy and Julie. Brain fade.



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reddopto

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:17 pm


New age Cowboy,
Your attacks on Michelle were personal and nasty. Michelle was well behacevd here. You weren’t.



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churchmouse

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:19 pm


“ As a Canadian I have nothing to gain or defend in this argument. Besides, we already have basic health care for everybody, so if Americans don’t want that it’s no problem for us. It’s just that it takes willful denial to reject what Paul reasonably pointed out:”
And we can see what a failure socialized medicine really is by Canadas example. That’s why people are in an uproar because they do not want your system.
“”after seeing the sea of angry white faces holding signs with Obama as an African Witch Doctor, and other signs commenting about his Muslim heritage, I have to agree with President Carter that there is an element of racism and xenophobia within the current opposition to our President.”“
The angry white faces are not angry because Obama is black. There are blacks also standing in protest because of his policies and lies. He was elected only because he was black and people just now are seeing that the lack of experience and his values are not aligned with American ideals. The hatred for Bush and the fact that Obama was black got him elected.
Question Brian……Were all the blacks that were vocally against Bush racist?



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Jack

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:20 pm


Thank you Robert Morell and The New Age Cowboy (see comments above) your comments are fresh, insightfull and correct from my perspective…
“Free Market Capitialism” (ie Right Wing Christian Fiscal Conservatives et al) have allowed Capitalism to cater to those that have (the 1%) by legalizing crimal behavior (ie Visa cards to college students with interest rates escalating to 30%; Health Insurance Industry denial of coverage scams; sub-prime mortage debacle; off-shore manufacturing and the “service-economy” etc.). The off-shore/outsourcing scam is so corrupt it is hard to believe that our political leaders went along with this. Can anyone say that shipping
USA manufacturing jobs overseas is good for the American people. But that isn’t even the worst of it, we were sending this manufacturing business to people who were utilzing SLAVE LABOR (ie $4 per day; $.90 hour / 12 hours per day 6 to 7 days per week). What kind of capitalism and democracy is this. I know what Jesus would say about this — the only problem is that Jesus was crucified as were most of his early followers… until Jesus comes back again it looks to me like The Fathers Will is to have things the way they have always been (ie greed – crash – WAR – greedy – crash).
But don’t get me wrong I am willing to hope and pray for the Great Society The Dream Will Never Die kind of USA. Michael Moore is suggesting that a new form of financial system & democracy be created. One not created by the special interest groups but rather one created by the People of the USA For The People of the USA etc. – one that Jesus truly would approve of. We need the enery and brillance of The New Age Cowboy and his kind (No more Harvard Business School approach – rather true Political Scientists and Economists from Hardvard/Stanford/Columbia etc. our best and our brightest focused on creating a sustainable, honest approach that
truly aims for: full-employment; universal healthcare and peace.



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churchmouse

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:22 pm


I have no idea why this posted on this blog I apologize, I posted this one on another site a few days ago?????????? So sorry….
____________________________
And what does Moore know about Christ? Did Moore display Christs love when he attacked people, particularly Bush? He is a hypocrite and a joke. Whoever would take him seriously is
Why would Moore want America to be anything like Christ in its laws? He’s a radical liberal for crying out loud. He wants to take God out of everything doesn’t he? Now Moore brings up Jesus to back his view about the evils of capitalism. And he is part of the Hollywood community who defines materialism.
Possessions can be used for good especially if someone uses their fortune to help the poor and needy. Jesus said an accumulation of wealth however can bring on problems. If we put material wealth above God its a sin. But God wants us to do this with a willing heart. He does not force anyone to share anything and neither should our government.God loves a giving heart. We come to Him because we love and need Him, not because we are forced, we give what we have to help the needy because we want to do it not because we are forced.
In Matthew 6:32-33, we are told that it is pagans who “run after” material things. Jesus instructs us to “seek first [God’s] Kingdom and His righteousness.” This place is where everyone is treated equally.
God never intended us to be poor but to thank and give Him the credit for what wealth we do have. He is the power for all goodness that comes into our lives. And God blesses wealthy people: Job, Abraham, Jacob (Israel), and Solomon are excellent examples. If God wanted His “best” people to stay poor, would the following scene have taken place? Look to 1 Kings 3:5-14. God rewarded Solomon’s request with wealth.
Jesus said that people would be rewarded richly for anything they give up for Him and the gospel—now and in heaven (Mark 10:29,30). God will then reward you appropriately.
God will give to givers no matter if they give millions or they give only a penny. God knows the intent of the gift. He is against loving money and putting this love above the love and prasie that should be given to him.
Deuteronomy 8
18 “And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth, that He may establish His covenant which He swore to your fathers, as it is this day.”



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Your Name

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:30 pm


Um, I recall reading something Jesus said about selling all you have and giving it to the poor. How is Moore’s message “anti-Jesus”?



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Your Name

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:37 pm


“And we can see what a failure socialized medicine really is by Canadas example.”
We can??? I’m from Canada and my health care is excellent. I’ve had 3 semi-major operations in my lifetime – $0 bill received. My husband has had 7 major surgeries. Last one, he was in the operating room within 4 hours of admittance to the emergency ward. Again, $0 bill. And, btw, no insurance is needed. So your imagined “failure” is pure and utter bullshit, cm.
You’re just plain lying on this one, churchmouse. But then, what else is new?



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Les

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:51 pm


Hmmm, Your Name, has Moore done that yet? Have you?



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Les

posted September 24, 2009 at 2:57 pm


Uh, Your Name. Selling all you have and giving it to the poor, that is.



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churchmouse

posted September 24, 2009 at 3:24 pm


Is Moore rich? Has he sold everything and taken up the cross for Christ?
Cowboy said, “Evangelicals had there sacred cow with the likes of Bush and it was a disaster.”
No, actually honey the evangelical was Jimmy Carter and no one from the LEFT went after him with the hatred that they went after Bush. He is the one who led a bible study and went to evangelical church while president. He was a failure. The LEFT makes exceptions. Of course it’s debatable to whether Carter actually practices what he preaches.
Cowboy says, “I’ve been involved in Evangelical ministry… and because of this Evangelical love-affair with right-wing politics, not many young people outside rural and insulated suburban areas really care for your brand of Christianity. Your brand of Christianity has peaked and is now dissipating. (I would actually call what you peddle – psuedo-Christianity.)”
That surprises me because your posts show a slight tone of hatred towards those you disagree with. You certainly do not speak with love and Christ was not just about truth but truth shown in love. I do not know what YOUR brand of Christianity is but there is only one brand that I know of and that’s to follow Christ, to accept Him as your personal Savior and to live according to His Word. We can not judge someones heart but we have the right to judge someones words and actions. You seem to be judging hearts here Cowboy.
Cowboy said, “If you continue in your political zeal, your seminary stint will be a complete waste, and all you’ll end up having done with your life is preaching a capitalist christ to the choir.”
Political Zeal? And what are your true motives Cowboy be honest? And you have the gall to tell someone their life is a waste?
You need to pick up the Word and pray on it, especially the parts that command you to control your tongue.
“And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ’s sake hath forgiven you.” (Eph. 4:1–3, 29, 31–32
“Be swift to hear, [but] slow to speak.” (James 1:19
“She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” (Prov. 15:1–2, 4; Prov. 31:10, 26)
Cowboy said, “I’ve seen the fruits of your sacred cow.
Jesus, protect me from the psuedo-Christians!”
And how about the fruits of the spirits in your own life, how do you rate? For Jesus, actions always spoke louder than words. How are your actions?
Paul wrote, “Follow my example as I follow the example of Christ,” (I Corinthians 11:1).
Who is following the example of Christ here?
No matter what your theology your doctrinal position, to be of Christ your life must be consistent with Christs and what he taught. You can make any truth claim you want to make, but unless you show this by actions it means nothing. We must live the life.
Christ loved even his enemies, did you miss that part of scripture? It is a commandment.



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Christopher Taylor

posted September 24, 2009 at 4:10 pm


Well, here’s how I look at it: Michael Moore thinks that capitalism is evil and the richest 1% are oppressors.
He is a capitalist and in the richest 1%, which means that he is an evil oppressor, according to his own arguments.
Or a fat hypocrite.
Which, by the way, Jesus was harder on than merchants and rich people.



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RevPauli

posted September 24, 2009 at 4:33 pm


In very typical, republican fashion, (non)Reformed Chick Blabbing cannot imagine anyone thinking of anyone other than themselves. VERY wealthy people can be concerned about the plight of the poor, unless they are republicans, of course. Conservatives think only about what is in it for themselves. Progressives think about what will benefit the greatest number of people. Ted Kennedy was RIDICULOUSLY wealthy, and was, without question or exception, the single loudest and most effective voice in this country for the poor and unisured. Michael Moore is the same way.
And hay, for the first time I think EVER, the supposed REFORMED Chick Blabbing actuallt mentioned the name of Jesus! Not in any way that has ANYTHING to do with a Reformed theological take on politics, but at least she made a quasi-religious comment!



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Les

posted September 24, 2009 at 4:45 pm


Your Name, you said,
“Um, I recall reading something Jesus said about selling all you have and giving it to the poor. How is Moore’s message “anti-Jesus”?”
Now that I’m at a computer rather than iPhone, yes Jesus did say that. But you have totally quoted Jesus out of context. Here is the full context from Matthew 19:
16 And behold, a man came up to him, saying, “Teacher, what good deed must I do to have eternal life?” 17 And he said to him, “Why do you ask me about what is good? There is only one who is good. If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” 18 He said to him, “Which ones?” And Jesus said, “You shall not murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, 19 Honor your father and mother, and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 20 The young man said to him, “All these I have kept. What do I still lack?” 21 Jesus said to him, “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 When the young man heard this he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
The points are:
1. The man thought he could have eternal life by doing deeds. He thought his own self righteousness would garner him eternal life.
2. Jesus disabuses him of that idea by pointing him to the law, and that he could not keep it. If he could keep the law, perfectly, he surly could gain eternal life. But notice that when Jesus told him to sell all and give to the poor, AND to follow Jesus, the man went away sad because he loved his possessions more than Jesus.
The bible teaches that eternal life is a gift from God and cannot be earned or deserved (Eph. 2: 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.)
It is impossible for anyone to perfectly keep God’s law. One man did perfectly, the God Man Jesus the Christ!
Utter abandonment to self and utter repentance of sin and complete abandonment to the finished work of Christ on the cross is the only way anyone receives eternal life.
I suggest anyone reading here go to the infallible word of God and seek Christ. THAT is not a matter of Democrat or Republican.



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churchmouse

posted September 24, 2009 at 5:57 pm


There is an ugly truth to Canadian health care and some just won’t admit it. I have family who live in Toronto, they tell me it’s nothing like you want to paint it here.
http://www.city-journal.org/html/17_3_canadian_healthcare.html
Canadian Doctors Say Patients Are at Risk
http://www.heartland.org/policybot/results/13310/Canadian_Doctors_Say_Patients_Are_at_Risk.html
Someone pays your medical bills Your Name.
Of course the rich, right? You take from the rich.
If moore thinks Canada is so great and the United States is so horrible…why isn’t he living there?
Moore is a hateful person. I remember when he said that hurricane Gustav was a gift from God when it planned to hit on the opening day of the Republican Convention. He is a hypocrite, a rich one at that.
He never did apologize for his statements, I guess he thinks he is perfect. He probably thinks repenting to God is a ridiculous act, but then he is pro-abortion. Capitolism is bad……abortion is godly.
And you say hes got it right?
haha



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Clay Barham

posted September 24, 2009 at 6:32 pm


Wow! Where have the original, libertarian-leaning Democrats from Jefferson to Cleveland gone? All that seems to be left are Marxists who want to bring America back into the Old World fold, where poverty and tyranny are the custom. Read THE CHANGING FACE OF DEMOCRATS from Amazon.com or http://www.claysamerica.com and find out.



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churchmouse

posted September 24, 2009 at 11:16 pm


“VERY wealthy people can be concerned about the plight of the poor, unless they are republicans, of course.”
I see you also speak with love and kindness RevPauli. So you hate Republicans eh. If you look at the majority of the richest people in America, Hollywood, Politicians they are Democrats. Democrats who travel in privately owned jets who own not one but multiple homes around the world. Forbes ranked them. Six of the top ten are Democrats.
http://www.forbes.com/2002/10/29/cx_dd_richpols.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_politicians
Yea…….and Democrats are only for the little guy? That is a joke. Look at Hollywood, it’s controlled by millionaires who just happen to be Democrats. At election time they come out of the woodwork to support Democrats.
“Conservatives think only about what is in it for themselves. Progressives think about what will benefit the greatest number of people.”
Oh please. If any group of people are materialistic it’s overpaid athletes, people in the entertainment field and politicians. They aren’t for the little people and most don’t live green, they just think we should.
Moore a crusader for the poor?……..ha ha.
He cares so much that he charges high fees to come talk.
http://www.dickinson.edu/dickinsonian/detail.cfm?548
“Other campuses on Moore’s college tour have paid up to ten times the Senate’s donation in total expenses. Mary Beth Daisey, associate provost for student affairs at Rutgers University, Camden, stated that the university paid roughly $50,000 for Moore’s visit on Sept. 20. At Utah Valley State College, student government officials are being petitioned for recall after approving a decision to donate $40,000 out of a $50,000 speaking budget to bring Moore to campus. If California State University San Marcos had not rescinded its invitation to Moore, the university would have paid approximately $37,500 for the documentarian’s visit, $6,500 coming from student government funds.”
“I’m a millionaire, I’m a multi-millionaire. I’m filthy rich. You know why I’m a multi-millionaire? ‘Cause multi-millions like what I do. That’s pretty good, isn’t it?” Michael Moore
“I walk among them. I live on the island of Manhattan, a three-mile-wide strip of land that is luxury home and corporate suite to America’s elite….. Those who run your life live in my neighborhood. I walk in the streets with them each day” MM
A man who sends his kids to private schools, so they wont have to rub elbows with the working class. And he gives expensive speeches about the evils of Capitalism. The man is a giant sized joke.



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Luiza

posted September 25, 2009 at 6:17 am


I agree that the Canadian health care system may not be the best in the world. I also met someone from Australia who also has Universal Health Care and he told me it is not the best. He uses private insurance because when can get to see a doctor much faster than in the public hospitals where the waiting is long.
However, something is better than nothing, I don’t think I am a communist because I believe people should have access to health care regardless. I view health care as a basic human right. So many is done overseas to unsure that people have their basic health needs met. But many people in the USA need it, and CANNOT afford it. Maybe we have to accept that the good old days are gone, and changes need to be made.



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Luiza

posted September 25, 2009 at 6:27 am


By the way, I like some of Michael More’s views. I don’t agree with everything he says, but I have not watched the movie yet. But watched all his previous one. It is good to hear another point of view, we take the best of it.
Talking about hospitals in the US, I live near a very fancy hospital in the Aventura, FLorida. In the hospital you’ll find a piano that plays by itself, an Starbucks cafe, fancy furniture, while the rooms upstairs are just like any other hospital, there is also vallet parking, the receptionists all dressed in black, like office secretaries. I ask, is this really necessary? Are the doctors there better than the Canadians, Australians and Europeans doctors? What do I care, about Starbucks, fancy furniture, and etc… That doesn’t mean good health care.



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Richard Clark

posted September 25, 2009 at 9:59 am


Michele,
Stop listening to the tea-bag idiots and read the Gospels. Jesus Christ was a socialist and He would puke on capitalism and the Religious Right fascists if He would come back today. We need Single-Payer Health Care (HR 676) in America. Michael Moore rocks and capitalism sucks.



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Andreas Petofi

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:11 am


Clay,
The group of Democrats your book (“The Changing Face of Democrats”) were the evil “Bourbon Democrats” who under-mined through violence and terror the most progressive era in American history – the Reconstruction Era. These reactionary Democrats did everything in their power to maintain a return to the pre-Civil War era in which racial hatred and segregation were supported. There is no reason for the present day Democrats to imitate fascists like Jefferson Davis who only favored the rich oligarchs in the South.



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Alicia

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:23 am


Richard Clark, your statement that Jesus Christ was a socialist is simply “reading back” and projecting modern concepts that didn’t have any meaning when the Gospels were written. Just a suggestion – to you, Michele, and everyone here: read Garry Wills’s books, “What Jesus Meant,” “What Paul Meant,” and “What the Gospels Meant.” I think Wills would say that Jesus’s statement, “My kingdom is not of this world,” was a rejection of politics of whatever variety.
As the Washington Post put it (paraphrasing) “Wills’s interpretration of the Gospel message has something to anger and provoke both liberals and conservatives.” So it should go over big here, since we all seem to enjoy being angered and provoked a great deal.



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New Age Cowboy

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:25 am


I’ll say this about the conservatives and geography: They wanted the South; and they got it. Now it’s their beast of burden.
Rod, you really pose a good question above. Any kind of politics is something we take on faith. An essential component of faith is doubt, which allows for self-examination and dialog.
I hope this doesn’t upset you; but I’d like to address your “Good Glenn Beck, bad Glenn Beck” post. I do think your making a mistake believing that Glenn Beck is really rational at all. If I were a bona fide Crunchy Con, I’d find better things to do than paying so much attention to loons.
Follow the likes of Ron Paul or the Libertarian Party. (I do remember the mocking attitude FOX and Republicans had towards Ron Paul who spoke eloquently during Republican primary debates.) Keep comparing Obamacare to Romneycare.
Maybe Glenn Beck is the best thing for the conservative movement. If so many conservatives succumb to the likes of self described ‘rodeo clowns’ and ‘hockey moms’ without any doubt or self-examination, maybe the movement needs to collapse. (I don’t believe it’s really collapsed yet. 2010 & 2012 will be the real indicators.)
At this point, I sincerely believe that self described conservatives would follow some other loons if Beck, Palin, or Rush disappeared. The tea-baggers, dittoheads, 9-12ers, birthers, etc. are the constituents Republican conservatives have fought so hard to court – now they’re the Republicans’ beast of burden.



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New Age Cowboy

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:28 am


I apologize to all, the above post somehow went through rather than the one below, when I cut and paste. It was meant for Rod Dreher’s Crunchy Con blog, NOT for Reformed Christian perspective.
Michele (& her defenders),
I sincerely ask you the following, again: Do you think going on and on about politics on Beliefnet has brought anybody to know Jesus Christ?
I was criticized for judging Michele’s heart. Well, as a writer, I know that many times we turn our hearts into open books via the printed word. I look at Michele’s recent posts column in the upper left and see posts on czars, ACORN, the MSM, Bill Ayers, etc. I’m really wondering what any of this has to do with a “Reformed” Christian perspective.
Judging by what Michele writes about most of the time, I’d say her zeal for conservative populism far outstrips anything regarding Christ.
I suggest that she change the ‘Reformed Christian’ title to something more like Rod Dreher’s title ‘Crunch Con’. (I actually like Mr. Dreher’s posts, even though I’m liberal.)
Christianity is only compromised by politics. Jesus was persecuted by political authorities and said that his kingdom was not of this world.
I equally pinch my nose at Democrats that would like to parade Jesus out as a rationale for their policy choices. I’m longing for a candidate that says, “You’ll know me by my fruits. Nuff said.”
This brings me to Michael Moore. I’ve watched him on talk shows promoting his new movie and he doesn’t seem to be beating people over the head with his notion that capitalism is not Christian (nobody’s really noticed statements like this from him in the past when he released his other movies or books)… at least not the way folks like Pat Robertson of the 700 Club wax on and on, unconsciously comparing the likes of Ronald Reagan to the second coming of Christ.
I grew up watching Billy Graham in the early 80s, even going to a Crusade in Denver in 87 at Mile High Stadium. He certainly didn’t stay out of politics earlier in his ministry; but I think he learned. His even handed evangelical style disappeared in the 90s with the ascendancy of groups like the Christian coalition, which seemed to imply that being an Evangelical resulted in Republican leanings.
Me, I believe capitalist markets work wonderfully in most economic sectors. I do believe because of our fallen natures we need a rule of law enforced by a government. I also believe the government can run some things, like the military, much better because of integrity issues, economies of scale, etc. I’m being intentionally vague because I think LOVE trumps all and is the proper subject for blogs, publications, broadcasts, etc. touting themselves as ‘Christian’.
Do I believe Michele, and those that enjoy the posts are inherently evil? NO! I’m just tired of the political preaching on the part of ‘Christians’. For me, capitalism, socialism, command economies, etc. should all be completely subordinate to the Gospel in any Christian venue. In fact, where I fellowship every week, political conversations are frowned upon. That’s how I, as a liberal, fellowship with mostly conservatives.
Conservative evangelical and fundamentalist churches are now on the decline statistically, as noted several times on different Beliefnet blogs, especially with the new millennial generation. I think a lot of these folks need to wed themselves to the Gospel, rather than the GOP.



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churchmouse

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:38 am


“VERY wealthy people can be concerned about the plight of the poor, unless they are republicans, of course.”
I see you also speak with love and kindness RevPauli. So you hate Republicans eh. If you look at the majority of the richest people in America, Hollywood, Politicians they are Democrats. Democrats who travel in privately owned jets who own not one but multiple homes around the world. Forbes ranked them. Six of the top ten are Democrats.
http://www.forbes.com/2002/10/29/cx_dd_richpols.html



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churchmouse

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:39 am


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richest_politicians
Yea…….and Democrats are only for the little guy? That is a joke. Look at Hollywood, it’s controlled by millionaires who just happen to be Democrats. At election time they come out of the woodwork to support Democrats.
“Conservatives think only about what is in it for themselves. Progressives think about what will benefit the greatest number of people.”
Oh please. If any group of people are materialistic it’s overpaid athletes, people in the entertainment field and politicians. They aren’t for the little people and most don’t live green, they just think we should.
Moore a crusader for the poor?……..ha ha.
He cares so much that he charges high fees to come talk.



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churchmouse

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:41 am


http://www.dickinson.edu/dickinsonian/detail.cfm?548
“Other campuses on Moore’s college tour have paid up to ten times the Senate’s donation in total expenses. Mary Beth Daisey, associate provost for student affairs at Rutgers University, Camden, stated that the university paid roughly $50,000 for Moore’s visit on Sept. 20. At Utah Valley State College, student government officials are being petitioned for recall after approving a decision to donate $40,000 out of a $50,000 speaking budget to bring Moore to campus. If California State University San Marcos had not rescinded its invitation to Moore, the university would have paid approximately $37,500 for the documentarian’s visit, $6,500 coming from student government funds.”
“I’m a millionaire, I’m a multi-millionaire. I’m filthy rich. You know why I’m a multi-millionaire? ‘Cause multi-millions like what I do. That’s pretty good, isn’t it?” Michael Moore
“I walk among them. I live on the island of Manhattan, a three-mile-wide strip of land that is luxury home and corporate suite to America’s elite….. Those who run your life live in my neighborhood. I walk in the streets with them each day” MMoore
A man who sends his kids to private schools, so they wont have to rub elbows with the working class. And he gives expensive speeches about the evils of Capitalism. The man is a giant sized joke.



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churchmouse

posted September 25, 2009 at 10:54 am


“ As a Canadian I have nothing to gain or defend in this argument. Besides, we already have basic health care for everybody, so if Americans don’t want that it’s no problem for us. It’s just that it takes willful denial to reject what Paul reasonably pointed out:”
And we can see what a failure socialized medicine really is by Canadas example. That’s why people are in an uproar because they do not want your system.
“”after seeing the sea of angry white faces holding signs with Obama as an African Witch Doctor, and other signs commenting about his Muslim heritage, I have to agree with President Carter that there is an element of racism and xenophobia within the current opposition to our President.”“
The angry white faces are not angry because Obama is black. There are blacks also standing in protest because of his policies and lies. He was elected only because he was black and people just now are seeing that the lack of experience and his values are not aligned with American ideals. The hatred for Bush and the fact that Obama was black got him elected.
Question Brian……Were all the blacks that were vocally against Bush racist?



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New Age Cowboy

posted September 25, 2009 at 12:02 pm


Wow Churchmouse, You’re even more hardcore than I was in my 1st post (3rd one on this group regarding ‘capitalism’).



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New Age Cowboy

posted September 25, 2009 at 12:03 pm


Michele (& her defenders),
I sincerely ask you the following, for the third time: Do you think going on and on about politics on Beliefnet has brought anybody to know Jesus Christ?
I was criticized for judging Michele’s heart. Well, as a writer, I know that many times we turn our hearts into open books via the printed word. I look at Michele’s recent posts column in the upper left and see posts on czars, ACORN, the MSM, Bill Ayers, etc. I’m really wondering what any of this has to do with a “Reformed” Christian perspective.
Judging by what Michele writes about most of the time, I’d say her zeal for conservative populism far outstrips anything regarding Christ.
I suggest that she change the ‘Reformed Christian’ title to something more like Rod Dreher’s title ‘Crunch Con’. (I actually like Mr. Dreher’s posts, even though I’m liberal.)
Christianity is only compromised by politics. Jesus was persecuted by political authorities and said that his kingdom was not of this world.
I equally pinch my nose at Democrats that would like to parade Jesus out as a rationale for their policy choices. I’m longing for a candidate that says, “You’ll know me by my fruits. Nuff said.”
This brings me to Michael Moore. I’ve watched him on talk shows promoting his new movie and he doesn’t seem to be beating people over the head with his notion that capitalism is not Christian (nobody’s really noticed statements like this from him in the past when he released his other movies or books)… at least not the way folks like Pat Robertson of the 700 Club wax on and on, unconsciously comparing the likes of Ronald Reagan to the second coming of Christ.
I grew up watching Billy Graham in the early 80s, even going to a Crusade in Denver in 87 at Mile High Stadium. He certainly didn’t stay out of politics earlier in his ministry; but I think he learned. His even handed evangelical style disappeared in the 90s with the ascendancy of groups like the Christian coalition, which seemed to imply that being an Evangelical resulted in Republican leanings.
Me, I believe capitalist markets work wonderfully in most economic sectors. I do believe because of our fallen natures we need a rule of law enforced by a government. I also believe the government can run some things, like the military, much better because of integrity issues, economies of scale, etc. I’m being intentionally vague because I think LOVE trumps all and is the proper subject for blogs, publications, broadcasts, etc. touting themselves as ‘Christian’.
Do I believe Michele, and those that enjoy the posts are inherently evil? NO! I’m just tired of the political preaching on the part of ‘Christians’. For me, capitalism, socialism, command economies, etc. should all be completely subordinate to the Gospel in any Christian venue. In fact, where I fellowship every week, political conversations are frowned upon. That’s how I, as a liberal, fellowship with mostly conservatives.
Conservative evangelical and fundamentalist churches are now on the decline statistically, as noted several times on different Beliefnet blogs, especially with the new millennial generation. I think a lot of these folks need to wed themselves to the Gospel, rather than the GOP.



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Moonshadow

posted September 25, 2009 at 1:45 pm


Alicia, I love you for mentioning Garry Wills and his books.
I’m really wondering what any of this has to do with a “Reformed” Christian perspective.
Let me explain the problem from the Reformed perspective (‘though Christopher Taylor approaches an explanation, not quite thorough):
Yes, Moore is a hypocrite. He probably knows this. Most of us know this about ourselves. Moore is probably pretty self-loathing, as well. That doesn’t excuse him.
But, you see, while the non-Reformed person can take and run with Moore’s message and disregard the condition of the messenger, the Reformed person can’t get past what a spiritual mess Moore is. There’s regard in the Reformed Christian for the individual “lost soul,” even at the cost of the “greater good.”
It’s not pragmatism. That is probably what bothers the rest of us about it.



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Julie

posted September 25, 2009 at 3:33 pm


moonshadow, “the Reformed person can’t get past what a spiritual mess Moore is. There’s regard in the Reformed Christian for the individual “lost soul,” even at the cost of the “greater good.””
I do not understand what you are saying. Michele’s comments sound like they come directly off of right wing websites that have nothing to do with religion. RevPauli said, “In very typical, republican fashion, (non)Reformed.” Michele is not consistent in her attacks, which are Obama/Democrat/liberal focused. I do not know enough about Moore to know why he qualifies as a “spiritual mess.” I am assuming one thing would be because he is pro-choice. I learned yesterday that he was raised as a Catholic.
Are Garry Wills’ books mostly Catholic based? Amazon has “What the Gospels Meant” for $2.67. Would it be better to read “What Jesus Meant” first? ($9.73 at Amazon)
The following short video clip includes a very important message about how employers are hiring employees as contractors, which allows them to make more money by not paying benefits.
Watch Michael Moore call out ABC on “Good Morning America” Wednesday for employing “permalancers,” permanent freelancers who are effectively full-time employees but hired on a contract basis, and thus not extended any benefits.
http://tinyurl.com/ycdn7sc
The number of employers not paying benefits has increased substantially. In addition, many employers are moving business offshore to save labor costs. One of the major results is more people without health insurance.



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Moonshadow

posted September 25, 2009 at 4:19 pm


I started with “What Paul Meant” from Wills.
Wills is something of a throwback and, since he claims to be a conservative, that’s expected.
I’m guessing the Reformed perspective would be the same as, say, a Mother Teresa: to attend to the person in front of you rather than to the larger picture. It’s extravagant.
Maybe I’m wrong.



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churchmouse

posted September 25, 2009 at 4:55 pm


Cowboy said, “I sincerely ask you the following, for the third time: Do you think going on and on about politics on Beliefnet has brought anybody to know Jesus Christ?”
I would be happy to respond to this. Who knows what brings people to Christ. There are many different ways and methods that lead people to Christ. Different issues mean different things to different people. I work to end abortion, so for me that issue is most important. I use the Gospel to witness to people not only about abortion but to show them sin the way God views it. Abortion is killing something God created. Now when I go on marches and prayer vigils we pray and talk to people who know but especially don’t know Christ. I have seen the abortion issue bring people to Christ. Its how I came to know Christ personally. I remember hearing Kennedy preach about it. I hated it and it disturbed me a lot. I began to study on my own and circumstances in my life happened that brought it all together. But Kennedy was instrumental in my changing attitude. God Bless the people who stand up against those that say they shouldn’t speak the truth. There is nothing wrong with being political as long as it is related and aligns with Gods Word.
Jesus was not neutral on sin. We know exactly what is right and wrong because we have the Bible. If He were alive today He would not be silent on the issues. He would tell the abortionist, those killing unborns to “Go and sin no more.” And we have the right as Gods people to stand up for Godly principles but to do it with the right intentions and with love. In fact in the book of Luke, Jesus complimented John the Baptist and then rebuked the people of that generation. He did not hide and in fact hung around with moral outcasts. He even ate with the Pharisees. He challenged social, race even sexual boundaries so much that people were scandalized by his behavior. In Christs day holiness was defined as separation not love. Christs definition was love because he did not separate himself from anyone. So would Jesus shy away from politics? No way. He would be right in the center of it speaking the truth to sinners. That is exactly why He came.
Can you prove that no one has come closer to Christ just because you disagree with the method?



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Robert Morwell

posted September 25, 2009 at 4:57 pm


Moonshadow:
I’m not sure I see where Michele has expressed concern for Moore’s soul.
Contempt maybe… But, concern?
Where do you see that?



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Alicia

posted September 25, 2009 at 5:49 pm


Hi, Julie. I would also suggest starting with “What Paul Meant.” Wills is truly his own man, and his meditations on the Gospels are inspiring. He is critical of literalism fundamentalism and equally critical of the “Jesus Seminar” which he considers another form of literalism. He’s also very well-informed about the Bible.



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Feryle Lawrence

posted September 26, 2009 at 9:44 am


I am shocked that you would publish anything that Michael Moore ascribes to, since he is a liberal, unbeliever in Jesus Christ and degenerate.
You should screen your articles more closely.
Mrs. Feryle Lawrence



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interpreter

posted September 26, 2009 at 10:50 am


Jesus was the first communist



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anonymous reincarnate

posted September 26, 2009 at 3:05 pm


“He was elected only because he was black”
wow, that’s one of the most racist statements that i’ve seen on this blog. congratulations.
it’s no wonder people generalize the republican party so.



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churchmouse

posted September 26, 2009 at 6:58 pm


Obama I believe was elected because he was black and I do not believe that is a racist comment whatsoever. My daughters boyfriend is black and I adore him. I have nothing against inter-racial relationships.
Obama had no experience period. People wanted change and color was one of them. I personally know people that voted for him because they thought it was high time we had a black president. They did not care what his stance was. Howard Stern proved this when he sent a reporter out into the streets of Harlem to interview people about Obama. They had no clue what he was about.
I believe this country is ready for a person of color to be president, and also a female. However I do care what experience they have to bring to the table and who they surround themselves with.
Obama was the wrong man for the job. He has lied and manipulated people to get to the top. And for your information I was not a McCain lover, but at least he had experience and dedicated his life for this country in wartime. Ayers, Dohrn, and their terrorist activities, Rev. Wright the racist and America hater and Obamas slumlord friend Rezko…..yea right.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NyvqhdllXgU



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Les

posted September 27, 2009 at 9:33 am


Churchmouse to anony,
Ouch! Looks like you (anony) hurled the “racist” slur one too many times at the wrong person.



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anonymous reincarnate

posted September 29, 2009 at 1:56 pm


“Obama I believe was elected because he was black and I do not believe that is a racist comment whatsoever.”
which is exactly the problem. you don’t see the racism in your remarks. how about this one:
“People wanted change and color was one of them.”
yes, both racist. and both ignorant and neither based in fact. were there some people who voted for obama strictly because he is black? oh, absolutely, just as there were some who voted against him because he’s black. here’s what you need to do to back up your claim:
1. find out how many people voted for obama because of his race
2. find out how many people voted against obama because of his race
3. if the total in #1 is more than the total in #2 and if that difference is more than the total that obama beat mccain by, then you would be correct.
until you can prove that, you are making a wild claim that is driven by your racist beliefs that everyone (especially blacks) who voted for obama did so because he is black and not because of his stand on policies.
as for obama’s experience, mouse, what would you say about president lincoln and his very similar amount of experience prior to his presidency?



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anonymous reincarnate

posted September 29, 2009 at 2:01 pm


“Ouch! Looks like you (anony) hurled the “racist” slur one too many times at the wrong person.”
all i can say to you, pouty, is that your backing and support of racists like mouse are what helps to paint your entire republican party with that brush. i don’t have to hurl the racist label at mouse for him/her to be one… it’s the other way around.



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anonymous reincarnate

posted September 29, 2009 at 2:38 pm


back to the subject of the post, there are many who are attacking the messenger (even though he goes after republicans and democrats alike), calling him a hypocrite and worse.
sorry, but i haven’t read anywhere that being a hypocrite negates what he says.
i think that moonshadow’s comment (September 25, 2009 1:45 PM) was informative and on target.



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American Patriot

posted October 3, 2009 at 7:57 pm


Who is Michael Moore, really?
Does Michael Moore, of “Roger and Me” fame, have any credentials to be considered a working-class hero? A number of blue-collar workers, and a new biography, question his claims.
http://www.energypublisher.com/article.asp?id=18233



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