Progressive Revival

Progressive Revival


Hate Crimes Legislation and the Pulpit

posted by Paul Raushenbush

The Hate Crimes Bill passed the house yesterday 249-175 and so we have taken another step towards decency in our country and respect for all of our citizens.  This has been seen as a threat by conservative religious and legal groups, but others of us see it as evidence of the goodness of our democracy that nobody should be singled out for abuse and violence for who they are.  

 

It has been gratifying to see new Evengelical voices supporting this legislation. One of these is Dr. David Gushee, Professor of Christian Ethics at Mercer University who has offered crucial contributions to the Christian opposition to torture. Now he is speaking up about this current Hate Crimes legislation writing through the folks at Faith in Public Life:  

 

“As a Christian, I believe in the immeasurable and sacred worth of every human being as made in the image of God and as the object of God’s redeeming love in Jesus Christ. In our sinful and violent world, there are tragically very many ways in which this sacredness is violated. This bill deserves Christian support because its aim is to protect the dignity and basic human rights of all Americans, and especially those Americans whose perceived “differentness” makes them vulnerable to physical attacks motivated by bias, hatred and fear. The bill simply strengthens the capacity of our nation’s governments to prosecute violent, bias-related crimes. I am persuaded that the bill poses no threat whatsoever to any free speech right for religious communities or their leaders. Its passage will make for a safer and more secure environment in which we and all of our fellow Americans can live our lives. For me, the case for this bill is settled with these words from Jesus: “As you did it to one of the least of these, you did it to me” (Mt. 25:40).”

 

The legislation does raise the interesting question that most vexes the religious right.  If a person were to commit a violent crime directed specifically against a gay person and then claim that a pastor incited the violence through repeated condemnation of gay people, describing them as agents of satan and urging battle against them (this is not at all far fetched) would the pastor be subject to prosecution for contributing to a crime?

  

My guess is that it would be hard, and should be hard, to make a direct link. But hate speech from the pulpit probably indirectly contributes to such crimes if only in offering an ideological framework.   Dr. Gushee is persuaded that this legislation poses no threat to free speech and I believe he is right.  But hopefully religious leaders will think twice about demonizing specific groups from their pulpit.   A few weeks ago I wrote about the practice in South Africa of  ‘corrective’ rape of lesbians.  I wonder who pounded it into them that being a lesbian was wrong to begin with, and if they have some responsibility in these crimes of hate.

 

Ultimately I come down in favor of free speech almost always (fire in the threatre etc excepted).   But this is a salient issue.  Should clerics be allowed to incite viiolence, terrorism or sedition from the publpit?  Clerics should not be prosectuted from what she or he says in the publpit no matter how vile, but they should be thinking about how their words may translate into action by people who are sitting in the church, synogogue, mosque or temple. 



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Husband

posted April 30, 2009 at 2:06 pm


” If a person were to commit a violent crime directed specifically against a gay person and then claim that a pastor incited the violence through repeated condemnation of gay people, describing them as agents of satan and urging battle against them (this is not at all far fetched) would the pastor be subject to prosecution for contributing to a crime?”
First of all, thank you once again for a sober, thoughtful piece. You are quite corect that pastors do indeed repeatedly condemn gay people and describe them as agents of satan. (Actually, a lot of non-preachers do that too – check out the Crunchy Con blog for myriad odious examples.)
As for “urging battle against them”, no, that’s not “far-fetched” at all. ‘Reverend’ Jimmy Swaggart (yes, he of the 2 wh0res) said on a publicly broadcast TV show that, “If a man so much as looked at me ‘funny’, I’d kill him and tell God he died“. But instead of prosecuting him for contributing to a crime, his show was just yanked off the air (hopefully before any impressionable youth got to act on his ‘advice’). Used to be the rrr didn’t have to “urge battle on” gays; it was enough to blame natural disasters like hurricanes on ‘em – and the sheeple fell for that line, too.
Again, it’s not just preachers that do this. Recently 2 Governors said gay people were a bigger threat to the country than terrorists, and gawd knows we gotta eliminte them tairists, eh?



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T

posted April 30, 2009 at 2:07 pm


“Should clerics be allowed to incite viiolence, terrorism or sedition from the publpit?”
Should all the “hate” websites out there be allowed to do the same? Apparently, they are. Should a website that screams “kill the Jews” be held criminally liable when someone does just that? Apparently, they aren’t. This isn’t just a Christian, or religious, or even homosexual issue, as you are painting it to be.



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Husband

posted April 30, 2009 at 2:26 pm


Speaking of hate (not to mention dis-information), during the’debate’ on the hate cimes bill, Congresswoman Virginia Foxx called Matthew Shepard’s murder a “hoax” from the floor of the House. She said that Shepard “wasn’t killed because he was gay”. And she did it while Matt’s mother was present.
Can someone please exlain to me what causes people to lie about God’s gay and lesbian children so much?



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The Dissident

posted April 30, 2009 at 3:17 pm


At the incredibly great and incisive religious commentary site, “Killing the Buddha,” their blog says of Foxx’s comment, “If Shepard’s death was a “Hoax,” then the crucifixion was a carpentry mishap.”



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Karen

posted April 30, 2009 at 3:35 pm


Excuse me, but this legislation limits freedom of speech and freedom of religion. You may not like what someone believes, but they have the right to speak their minds and believe what they want just like you do! If you can’t understand that, you are so ignorant you never will. You want absolute freedom for yourself but not for those who do not agree with you. We are not Communist China…yet.



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The Dissident

posted April 30, 2009 at 3:41 pm


Karen, our free speech laws let Neo Nazis and the Klan continue to speak freely, even though what they say is detestable and no one is ever convicted of a thought crime. When ministers in churches begin telling their members outright to actively commit acts of violence then the law WILL get involved, and rightfully so.



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T

posted April 30, 2009 at 4:33 pm


Dissident, so you believe that if a Neo-Nazi says “All Jews Must Die!” that’s free speech. But if a minister preaches “Homosexuals Must Die!” that’s crime.



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The Dissident

posted April 30, 2009 at 4:54 pm


I believe you’re looking for the inciting imminent lawless action clause, read the constitution once in a while.



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Mary

posted April 30, 2009 at 5:50 pm


This is an attack on free speech.
What is hate speech? Who decides? This is an overthrow of the first amendment.
Preachers, pastors, and priests are preaching against sin because the are preaching WHAT IS WRITTEN in the Bible! All sin is forgiven if it is repented of. But you do not want homosexuality to be a sin! To say that homosexuality is not sin IS A LIE. These are God’s words, not man’s, that you do not like.
Violence against anyone for any reason should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law. Why introduce the ‘hate’ aspect?
In other countries, Like in Canada and Sweden, where these types of hate crime laws have been implemented, pastors and Christians have been jailed and fined for their faithful adherence to the biblical values. ~ that must be what you want.
In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (TNIV), Paul says:
“ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”



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Blue Collar Todd

posted April 30, 2009 at 5:52 pm


It is getting tiresome to see how Liberal Theology so completely perverts the teaching of Jesus in Matthew 25:
The Liberal War On Traditional Values
How any Christian can deny that a war has been declared on traditional Christian values by Liberal Democrats in Congress and the White House is beyond me. Liberalism is a false religion that stands in total antithesis to biblical Christianity and will lead to the persecution of those faithful Christians who hunger and thirst for righteousness. Jesus warns us about this dynamic in Matthew 25 where he identifies with those who follow Him.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’
“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’
“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:31-46
This is powerfully displayed by Liberal Senator Chuck Schumer declaring that it is time to move beyond traditional values.
And replace them with what exactly? A pro-abortion absolutist position that tolerates outright infanticide? A promotion of the homosexual lifestyle even though gay men are the single largest factor in the spread of HIV/AIDS in America? By spreading New Age relativism that when followed consistently is more tolerant of Muslim radicals than Christians obeying God’s Word? It is time for Liberal Christians to repent of their idolatry, an idolatry that is going to lead to the persecution of their faithful brethren in Jesus Christ. When true hatred is tolerated towards Christians by those worshiping Liberal idols, Jesus will ask them what they did for Him and they will wonder when they ever did such things to Jesus.



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Panthera

posted April 30, 2009 at 6:25 pm


When I read some of the comments here, I am truly astonished that these people identify themselves as “Christian”.
God has called us to love, not to hate. The very fact that there is so much outcry over hate crime legislation underscores the necessity for it.
Goodness, isn’t it enough you spiteful people had eight years of trampling my Constitution in the name of your interpretation of God?
Jesus offered us salvation through grace. He never limited that to heterosexuals.



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Gwyddion9

posted April 30, 2009 at 6:48 pm


Wow, the RR having to be accountable…who’d have ever thought?
I’m glad they’ll be held accountable for their words.
Abortion clinics, The Atlanta Summer Olympics where a man said that “God” to him to kill. I’m sure his thoughts were also because of some pastor who speaks for god. Of course, when he does the deed, the pastor back tracks and says the killer wasn’t a true Christian but then you have the more conservative types encouraging and congratulating him for the acts. All i can say, is it’s about time!!!
Mary,
In the Bible, your own faith doesn’t agree what is inspired and what isn’t.
Is this another example of picking what you want to be “what god says”?
Blue Collar Todd,
“And replace them with what exactly? A pro-abortion absolutist position that tolerates outright infanticide? A promotion of the homosexual lifestyle even though gay men are the single largest factor in the spread of HIV/AIDS in America? By spreading New Age relativism that when followed consistently is more tolerant of Muslim radicals than Christians obeying God’s Word?”
Where did you get the sources to validate your accusations? I’d like to see them or is this simply is an example of you Pastor said?
Conservative Christianity is in no way the bastion for traditional values in this country. Conservative Christianity picks and chooses what they want, like everybody else but they’re not as honest an open to this fact so they pretend that they’re savior of the country. Yeah, right.



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Your Name

posted April 30, 2009 at 7:16 pm


Blue collar tod, You had better look at the stats again to see who is the biggest contributor to hiv/aids. It was brought over here by a straight man coming back from africa after eating tainted monkey meat. The heterosexual community is in fact the biggest contributor. But then again how can we expect the right wingers to show any compassion. Did you not forget that the christian religion had killed people in Gods name before or are you going to wipe that part of history out. Hiv/Aids is relevant in all communities and it is ignorant of you to not think that. You , my friend, need to open your eyes and see the whole picture.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 1, 2009 at 12:07 am


@Gwyddion9 and “Your Name”,
If your paradigm will let you accept the facts about homosexuality and HIV/AIDS they come from the CDC website itself. So advocating acceptance of the gay lifestyle while trying to curb the spread of HIV/AIDS is like trying to curb gun violence by just telling people to use bullet proof vests. The behavior is the issue. You do not show love to someone by ignoring a behavior that is hazardous to their health. Imagine one or your friends is about to drive off a cliff, do you not tell them to stop what they are doing? If you do not you are not showing love to them, only be confronting their actions do you show love. The same with is involved with the issue of homosexuality.



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Panthera

posted May 1, 2009 at 6:33 am


Blue Collar Todd,
I am a gay man in a now 24 year monogamous relationship, the last four happily married (I don’t live in the US, obviously).
Like the vast majority of gay men, I always wanted to be married or in a long term relationship, and, like the vast majority of gay men, we do not live this “gay lifestyle” you allude to.
I don’t like it when you force me into that stereotype anymore than you would like it if I said, well, gosh – look at all those Catholic priests and the young kids! You, as a straight man must be a pedophile, too!
You aren’t.
And I am not a man-whore. Would it be fair to you to post links here to what the frat-boys do in New Orleans and Florida on spring break? Man, they do it like animals in the street. With women. Filming it on their cell phones. Posting it on the internet. Shall I take that as the basis for the “straight lifestyle”? Fine, y’all drink cheap beer ’till it runs out both ends, have sex with any willing woman and think condoms are party balloons with ribs. It’s all there on the internet to find.
I know that many of your true beliefs about us are based on what you have been told and on those TV shots of the birds of paradise for the TV parades. The vast majority of us, just like the vast majority of you, do not run around having sex with any guy we meet, and regardless of our HIV status, practice safe sex. OK, that is easy for me to say – I am negative and monogamous. And they don’t do heels for my size 13D feet.
But, really, truly, you aren’t a Catholic priest who abuses kids sexually, but you are a straight man. Shall I assume you are so grouchy, ’cause your last spring break left you with big house little cassino?
See what I mean?
OK?
Please?
Can we stipulate that all human life is of equal value in God’s eye? If so, then I think discussions about which group has the greatest number of sufferers from this dread disease is about as useful as wanting to have a malignant tumor, that one might have more cells in one’s body.
Obviously, in Africa that vast majority of people dying are heterosexual.
Horribly, the first assumptions about the disease, “gay cancer”, led many people in the US to assume it is predominately gay and nearly exclusively spread by gays.
Worse, a thousand times worse, in the late 1980’s some very very bad science (I am being polite here) was made very public through irresponsible media, proclaiming that the risk of HIV transmission was nearly zero in straight intercourse. It certainly was no coincidence that the three groups identified as at highest risk of spreading the disease were: Gay men. Negroes. Drug addicts.
This led to a horrible statistic which has bounced in and out of the CDC tables over the last decades: Frequently, the group with the highest rate of new infections is young women.
Now, again, I am assuming that you agree, we are all equal in God’s eye, race and sexual orientation and gender don’t matter to the virus nor to God.
Very recent studies have shown that the new infection rate for men can be cut dramatically through circumcision. But it took nearly 20 years for scientists to even test the hypothesis, so much was medicine focused on the long-since disproved stereotype that heterosexual sex was less risky than the “gay lifestyle”.
Turns out that uncircumcised men have tissue which is among the very most vulnerable to infection of all three highest risk sexual organs. I won’t go into details because of the spam filters, but learning this was not something which should have only occurred in the 21st century, the basic knowledge was taught to every student in their first semester in med school. In the 19th century.
OK, yes, definitely, there are gays out there who are practicing unsafe sex with a number of men. Very bad of them.
They know better and their behavior is unacceptable.
But if you took every single one of us and murdered us, you would neither have punished the people who started the epidemic nor would you have eliminated the vast majority of the sufferers.
Nor would you have stopped Aids.
It is easy to color opinion with statistics. Look, I will do it right now.
The “gay sex act” which seems to preoccupy the minds of the heterosexuals around here, far more than anything else, is, on a purely statistical and easily demonstrable basis practiced more by heterosexuals than by homosexuals. Why?
Well, once you get out of Deep Denial or Northern Podunk, and ask people for the truth in studies where they know their anonymity will be protected, it turns out more than 20% of the straights like the “gay sex act” so much, the do it upon occasion. Nearly half of all straights have at least gone so far as to try it once.
But, according to Christian conservatives, we are a vanishingly small part of the population. Less than 1/10 of 1%. So, if we drop that 20% to even 2% or even .5% of the straight population, you folks are engaging in the “gay sex act” all over the place.
See how silly that above was? And yet, absolutely true when we simply apply “logic” and “mathematics”. I mean, the numbers don’ lie,, do they?



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James Gilmore

posted May 1, 2009 at 10:02 am


Jesus warns us about this dynamic in Matthew 25 where he identifies with those who follow Him.
How completely twisted. You’ve turned a series of Biblical verses that talk about helping the oppressed, the poor, and the downtrodden into an argument for continuing to oppress through hate and bigotry. You’ve turned one of the most loving passages of the Bible into your sheer, unadulterated, soul-consuming hate for LGBT people.
This is more even than bigotry – this is heresy. If it was heretical for the Arians to add a single iota to a word of the Nicene Creed about the nature of Christ, how much more heretical is it to turn the Christ of love into a figure of hate? You need to repent of your bigotry and change your opinions.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 1, 2009 at 10:39 am


From a political perspective, the left is “pulling in rope”. The right tried this under the guise of 9/11 and still pines for the day – thus the nostalgia of 9/11. But that is 8 years ago.
“Pulling in rope”. When your tug of war opponent has fallen flat on their face and the rope goes slack. Where you’ve been in stalemate for years, all of a sudden your side makes gains that seemed impossible.
Learn from the mistakes of Rove, Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld. Arrogance, incompetence, hubris, myopathy, an overall megalomanic state of affairs.
Even learn from Bill & Hillary circa 1992 (different wing, same attitude).
This rope will be slack for some time to come as long as:
1. Competence reigns – which pretty much means pragmatism. And Obama seems to know it. Good for him.
2. The political reach does not exceed the citizens’ will. Being “right” is not enough. Obviously everyone thinks they are “right”. You have to prove your “right-ness” with results, not dogma.
It is an enjoyable state of affairs for the left at the moment. Pull in your rope, take in the slack. But do not turn your back or think this is won.



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churchmouse

posted May 1, 2009 at 2:34 pm


This is the first step towards the criminalization of Christianity.
The hate crimes bill is a direct attack on free speech. It is an attack on Christianity and all religions that talk about homosexual sex as being wrong. This legislation passes and the Bible will be classified as hate literature. It’s already happened in Canada (hate crimes law (C-250)) and Sweden. Anyone saying anything negative about homosexuals will face imprisonment or fines. That includes pastors of churches. No Bible…..no Leviticus. The bible = hate speech.
No minority or group should be protected any more than any other in America. Why should you be able to take anyone to court for simply verbally expressing their opinion, especially if they do not physically hurt anyone?
This legislation directly violates the fundamental Constitutional protections of equal justice by promoting unequal justice under the law. It creates a two-tier system of justice where some “victims” are more equal than others under the law. This unequal justice makes one motivation for assaulting a person more heinous than another. That mean a gays life is more valuable than a heterosexuals life. That means a gay has free speech and a heterosexul does not.
I peacefully picket Planned Parenthoods because I am against the slaughter of unborn children. I have the right to picket because I live in a country where we always have been able to stand up for our beliefs. With hate crimes…if some woman said that I threatened her by my presence and the sign that I carried, I could be arrested. If I showed up at a gay pride parade with a sign that said anything against them, I could be arrested. BUT they can go anywhere and carry a sign that says anything simply because they get more protection from the government.
Under the First Amendment any group has the RIGHT TO EXPRESS ITS VIEWS, and to try to persuade others of its stance on a moral issues if they are peaceful in doing it.
Free speech is ending at least for Christians.
I quote lesbian lawyer Barbara Finlay of British Columbia, “The legal struggle for queer rights will one day be a struggle between freedom of religion verses sexual orientation.”
(John Leo, “Stomping on Free Speech,” Town Hall.com, 12 April 2004
THAT DAY HAS COME.
Gays do not want people to just be tolerant, they want us to accept and respect their lifestyle. We should not be able to question, or say ANYTHING negative against them. And if we do we should be arrested because we are a threat.
Unbelievable.



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Panthera

posted May 1, 2009 at 5:01 pm


Churchmouse,
What is unbelievable is the level of paranoia and fear in your posting.
Is it the result of a guilty conscience perhaps?
You can relax. The first amendment to the Constitution (a document you conservative Christians otherwise prefer to trample under your feet) guarantees you the right of free speech.
It has precedence over the Hate-Crimes act.
You may continue to say the nastiest things about me you like, as may your hateful church.
The only difference is that now, when one of you conservative Christians attacks one of us physically, it gets taken seriously.
You and I, as Christians, have long since been granted this extra protection, by the by. I have yet to see an atheist thrown in jail for saying we are delusional and schizophrenic.
Chillax a bit, as my young students say. Really. You are free to continue to hate me.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 1, 2009 at 5:13 pm


So, churchmouse, it seems to me that you have correctly formed several paragraphs together and made a salient point. My congratulations. That is a lost art from the right side of the pulpit these days.
Nevertheless, your point is exactly true.
Now, you know what it is like to be on the wrong side of the majority. Perhaps how it has been for homosexuals to be on the wrong side of anti-sodomy laws. Perhaps how it might have felt to be on the wrong side of Jim Crow. Perhaps how is might have been to be on the inside of a Red line district.
Well, not yet. It might happen, but no one is persecuting Christians just yet. Here in Seattle Ken Huchison has been free to speak his mind from a pulpit within a public school for years. In a bastion of liberal thought, no one has moved that pulpit from the public’s view.
So, you are not persecuted. Yet.
Yet may yet come, but you are still a far way from it.
Perhaps now is a good time to reflect upon how organized monotheism has been the instrument of persecution in the past. How the white church in the South has been on the wrong side of civil rights for, what seems like, ever.
How the church seems forever ignorant of, and even encourages, the consumerism that enslaves third world citizens.
How it might feel to have your minority called out for “smiting” by an organized majority. A majority for which you cannot prove collusion, but nevertheless persecutes you. Think about that for a minute.
You seem stressed. “THAT DAY HAS COME”. Not really, but it might.
Reflect upon how slow the church has been to come to the aid of the helpless. What evangelical church today provides more in material aid to the communities they live in than they do for their worship band? Show me one…
Bleak, desperate?
If it actually does happen, you will realize you had no idea.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 1, 2009 at 6:38 pm


@James Gilmore
How completely twisted. You’ve turned a series of Biblical verses that talk about helping the oppressed, the poor, and the downtrodden into an argument for continuing to oppress through hate and bigotry. You’ve turned one of the most loving passages of the Bible into your sheer, unadulterated, soul-consuming hate for LGBT people.
You really need to look at the context. Jesus is addressing His disciples, those that follow Him. In other passages Jesus even calls the least of these His brothers. So being a Christian is a fundamental aspect of being the “least of these”. No I am not justifying hate of LGBT people, I am expressing love to them by calling them to repent from the sin of homosexuality. It seems ignoring that and encouraging homosexuality is a true expression of hate since you are promoting the damnation of their souls.



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churchmouse

posted May 1, 2009 at 7:16 pm


We will follow Canada and what has happened there. Abortion started out in 1973 only for the tough cases and look at abortion today. It is used by many as a form of birth control. The government even allows minors to cross state borders and get abortions. And minors can go behind their parents backs and get abortions so says the government.
So don’t give me the crap that free speech is secure.
Let me make myself perfectly clear Panthera. I do not hate you or any other person for that matter, especially homosexuals. I believe we all sin, they are just one segment of sinners. I would never physically hurt anyone, never. But I will not cave into being politically correct. I stand on the Word and God says any sex outside the boundaries of marriage is sin. Find me any scripture in the bible where God condones sex outside marriage, where God talks about same sex unions like He does marriage between one man and one woman. The Bible spans thousands of years……and not one positive example, not one.
You see you are using the Hate Crimes to threaten me in a way. And others like you, just to spite those who dissagree with homosexuality, you will pounce upon and scream hate crime. We eventually will be silenced and forced to go underground to worship.
Nat Ersoz you say persecution of Christians has not started. You are wrong, it has all over this country and world. Read Janet Folgers book, The Criminalization of Christianity. She gives hundreds of examples all over the country where Christians have already faced courts and have lost and been silenced.
Sweden’s law bans ALL SPEECH AND MATERIALS OPPOSING HOMOSEXUAL BEHAVIOR AND OTHER ALTERNATIVE LIFESTYLES. It calls for 4 years in jail for violating it. So does Canada. They declared the bible a hate book and preachers cant stand at the pulpit and say anything negative about homosexuality.
Jerry Falwell, (before he died) Dr, Laura, James Dobson had and have to edit their programs to remove anything having anything to do with homosexuality. They can’t even site statistics by the Centers for Disease Control on homosexual sex and disease as not to offend homosexuals.
Idaho….(Peterson vs Hewlett Packard) Christian worker exercised his free RIGHT in response to a homosexual poster the company placed near his cubical. He posted in his desk area bible verses regarding the poster. HE WAS FIRED.
The Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals wrote, “An employer need not accommodate an employees religious beliefs if doing so would result in discrimination against his co-workers.”
So the homosexual agenda trumps a persons religious beliefs.
California….A lesbian approaches 2 doctors in San Diego to be artificially inseminated, the doctors refused. She sued and the courts found that the doctors were wrong. They said, “practice your faith within the walls of your church but not in the work place.”
Pastors in Pennsylvania are seeking liability insurance to protect themselves from being prosecuted under the new states Hate-Speech law. What about free speech? That has ended.
Madison , Wisconsin…Ann Hacklander and Maureen Rowe looking for a roommate to share expenses. One of the applicants that applied was a lesbian . They selected another girl. The lesbian sued and won. Girls were ordered to pay $1,500.00 and forced to go to sensitivity training taught by HOMOSEXUALS. All because they did not select her for their roommate. Can you believe this. In the United States of America.
Sandia National Laboratories, New Mexico allowed homosexuals to have events honoring “coming out day”…Christians asked to bring in speakers to discuss evolution and creation. DENIED. Even after grudgingly recognizing the Christian group in settlement of a federal lawsuit, Sandia censored the Christians’ website by removing links to the Family Research Council and Exodus International- in the middle of “Gay Pride Month.,” which was widely advertised in Sandia’s internal publications.
Julie Foster, “Christians Sue Lab for Discrimination: Accuse Sandia of Giving Special Rights To Gays, Denying Believers Equal Treatment,” World Net Daily, 2000.
If your child happens to be in the California public school system and shows what a teacher terms questionable views on homosexuality, they can be sent to receive appropriate counseling. Assembly Bill 1785, establishes training for teachers to learn how to identify at risk pupils that might have the potential to someday displaying discrimination attitudes.
Churches that have been around for centuries are being forced to change views held by the majority and sooner than later churches will be forced to marry same sex couples.
How in the world has our FREE AND CIVILIZED SOCIETY come to a place that Christians are singled out, labeled, fired, and sent to jail, only for expressing biblical views that do not hurt anyone.



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James Gilmore

posted May 1, 2009 at 10:50 pm


So being a Christian is a fundamental aspect of being the “least of these”.
You know, you come to a point where it becomes so clear that you’re trying to rationalize your support for the greedy, anti-poor, anti-gay, anti-woman right wing in this country that all I can really do is just point and say “did you see what he just said?” Suggesting that Jesus in this passage was really only saying that the way we treat other Christians was how we would be judged is such a point. I mean, there really isn’t much I can say in response to something so completely wrong, so completely 180 degrees from Jesus’s law of love, than “really? You just said that?” Sometimes things are so patently and obviously ridiculous that even finding a common ground of rationality from which to argue is virtually impossible.
No I am not justifying hate of LGBT people, I am expressing love to them by calling them to repent from the sin of homosexuality.
If your definition of love is telling someone that a fundamental aspect of his or her identity is an abomination against the Lord, and that he or she should either go against his/her nature or never find any love in this world, please do me a favor. If you ever have the opportunity to demonstrate “love” for me or any of my friends, please don’t. I’m much happier without the hate you like to call love.
It seems ignoring that and encouraging homosexuality is a true expression of hate since you are promoting the damnation of their souls.
Of course, to say such a thing, you’re presuming that the same-sex sexual practices of first-century Palestine – based largely in a system of power and domination, in which an older man would take a young boy as a sex slave – is in any way remotely analogous to our much more advanced understandings of human sexuality, such that the Biblical prohibitions against taking part in this massively-unjust system of domination map evenly onto a contemporary definition of sin.
To take such a position in light of contemporary science, which has pretty well blown up the notion of homosexuality as a choice, and in light of the contemporary social milieu, in which gay and lesbian relationships are between consenting adults, is irresponsible, in my opinion, and does real damage. Your suggestion that being gay “damns one’s soul” has led directly to the kind of anti-gay attitudes that manifest themselves in verbal, emotional, and physical violence against LGBT individuals every single day. I’ll say it a little more clearly: Attitudes like yours are directly responsible for murders, beatings, verbal abuse, and every single other form of oppression and discrimination LGBT individuals experience every single day. In the name of Jesus, the Christ of Love, I call on you to repent of your hateful and bigoted attitude and change your ways, for bigotry and hatred are deep, soul-destroying sins.



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Lauren

posted May 1, 2009 at 10:54 pm


Churchmouse:
” Abortion started out in 1973 only for the tough cases and look at abortion today. It is used by many as a form of birth control. The government even allows minors to cross state borders and get abortions. And minors can go behind their parents backs and get abortions so says the government.
So don’t give me the crap that free speech is secure.”
What does the above have to do with free speech? And I highly doubt that abortion is used as birth control, given that it is a invasive medical procedure and there are cheaper avenues to take, such as birth control pills. I support your right to free speech and expression, even as someone who is staunchly pro choice I strongly disagree with the legal removal of peaceful protesters in front of Planned Parenthood, for example.
However, I must disagree with the line “only for expressing biblical views that do not hurt anyone”. Especially for LGBT youth, hearing such comments that “homosexuality is sinful” “homosexuals are going to hell” can be psychologically harmful. For the most part, psychologists agree that homosexuality is in part inherent and attempts to “change” the person’s orientation are harmful and fail. I have not practiced Catholicism in quite some time, but can sin be inherent and innate to a person, beyond original sin? Or is it a voluntary act committed as affront to God’s dictates?
Such statements do not just have the ability to negatively impact the LGBT individual but also the religious individual …when people are taught that a certain type of person is in a perpetual state of “sin” (given homosexuality is immutable) and therefore voluntarily outside God’s embrace, it is much much easier to disregard that person’s humanity and dignity and commit crimes against those people.
You seem well researched and passionate about your position. We live in a pluralistic society, so… Is there any way you can see reasonable compromise on issue that respects the rights and dignity of homosexuals and religious individuals?



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Panthera

posted May 2, 2009 at 6:56 am


I can’t even come close to expressing myself as well as James Gilmore and Lauren, so I won’t try.
They really have hit the nail on the head.
Churchmouse and Blue Collar Todd, I do understand your fears.
After more than a generation of being in total power, you are now encountering one shock after the other.
First, the American public which you had always believed to be basically just like you, elected a Negro to be president. Worse, he has done a brilliantly good job of it these last 100 days or so. I know from your writings that you are still upset about interracial marriage, so being led by a dark-skinned man who is intelligent, well-spoken and an expert on the US Constitution must be a shock. Goodness, he even speaks in full sentences and can tell a story from beginning to end.
Second, the economy has come crashing down and it is pretty clear that the people to blame for it were from your side of the house. Even the best attempts at blaming all this on Barney Frank and Clinton just haven’t quite done it.
Third, most Americans and most Christians do not embrace torture. Only the folks in your echo-chamber of far-right evangelical Christianity. Goodness, when even Rod Dreher is shocked, shocked I tell you that we practiced torture, surely the world is off her axis.
Fourth, in one month, the District of Columbia and two more states granted us full human status with the right to marry recognized. Two more are on the cusp of so doing and and least three more are poised to either lose by one vote or win in the next two months.
All of this in less than six months.
No wonder you are reeling.
Added to this is the very strong assumption that we, once in power, will treat you the way you have treated us.
You advocate torture, you dismiss (while secretly are very well aware of) the reports of beatings, murders and rapes of homosexuals and transgendered.
You have wielded your definition of Christianity as a weapon against us.
Of course you are shaking in your jackboots.
Relax.
There is another aspect to Christianity. One which your evangelical, conservative churches does not advocate, yet one which has a strong Biblical basis: Charity. Forgiveness. Compassion.
All we ask is that you stop bashing us, raping us and torturing us. If you had not taken such delight in turning away the partner of a man lying at death’s door from his hospital bed, if you had not tried to take those two adopted children from the happy home those two men have given them in Florida, things might have worked out differently. The comments on how those two old women in their late seventies tying the knot legally in California were a threat to the institution of heterosexual marriage is, I think, the worst case of stick foot, insert mouth any of us have seen since Bush#43 stopped worrying about being fooled thrice or once or, whatever…
You gave us no quarter. Now that we have the political means, we are establishing protections for our natural rights. You can protest, politely. But you can no longer hit us or use your pulpit to incite our murder.
There is an old saying in most European cultures. The German is best known:
“Die Geister, die ich reif, werd ich nicht mehr los”.
“The spirts I called to my aid, I can now not dismiss”.
And that is what has happened to you. You have summoned the evil spirits of hatred and fear to serve you. But they have turned on you, as they always do. It is time to cast them out.
I happen to have made the personal acquaintance of a long-haired, sandal wearing Jewish Rabi who is good at casting out evil spirits. If you like, I’d love to introduce you to him.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 2, 2009 at 12:12 pm


@James and Panthera,
I see nothing in churchmouse’s or my comments that even remotely suggests that violence is a preferred or even accepted method of responding to this issue. I equally condemn anyone who uses violence as a means of intimidation towards those in the LBGT community. I am merely calling for the Gospel to be preached, and in that you come back with the accusations of being hateful and bigoted. We are all sinners in the hands of a righteous and holy God, and all in need of grace that is only found through Jesus’ death on the cross for our sins. Yet, you take issue with homosexuality being a sin. We are to be priests of God, a royal priesthood repented from from sin, not embracing it.
As to Matthew 25 notice that in Matthew 24 Jesus is talking to His disciples and about when He comes back to judge the world. In Matthew 24 Jesus warns the disciples about how they will be persecuted for following Him. In Matthew 25 Jesus is referring to the sheep and the goats at the final judgment and how each group treated “the least of these” who are believers in Jesus. So those who persecute Christians are the goats who wonder when they ever saw Jesus. This by no means excludes or justifies not being concerned for the poor in general, but the context is clear.
Further, how this passage is used to express concern for the oppressed and helpless by Liberals but that excludes the unborn and newly born is the height of hypocrisy. Liberals cannot even follow their twisted view of this passage. If the unborn and newly born do not epitomize the “least of these” according to your view then I have no idea who could.
I have addressed the proper understanding of Matthew 25 in various blogs, you can read them here. Feel free to leave comments there as well.



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churchmouse

posted May 2, 2009 at 12:33 pm


“What does the above have to do with free speech?”
My point (which I don’t think I made to clear) was to say that there are those that say that this hate crimes bill/legislation won’t take free speech away, that we will always have the freedom to worship openly. The same thing happened with abortion. It was legalized only for the “hard cases“, rape, incest and the health of the woman. But today abortion on demand encompasses all cases, and abortion is used by some as birth control. This law will affect others and will have a trickle down affect on society.
We have a new tolerance today. This new tolerance is that I I have to ACCEPT those values, lifestyles I reject as absolutely equal to and valid as my own. I do not want to hire a cross dresser to work in my business. But I am FORCED TO HIRE ONE If I live in California. Forced or go to jail and pay a huge fine. If you do not accept wrong today as right, you get in trouble.
I’ll give you an example. In New York City medical schools, effective 2002 every student is forced to participate in on the job abortion training and MUST perform abortions, regardless of their religious beliefs. If you fail to participate in this you do NOT GRADUATE.
Kathryn Jean Lopez, “Bloomberg’s Gift: Mandatory Abortion Training Arrives in NYC Public Hospitals,” National Review Online, 1 July 2002, 1:00P.M.
What about the people who morally feel that abortion is murder and want nothing to do with it? What about the people who think that God says homosexual sex is sin? Should they both be able to voice their opinions? With this hate crimes….people will be forced to go against their sense of morality, especially if its Christian morality. It’s very common to hear Christians called intolerant, by those who claim to be tolerant. Have you ever noticed how some of the most intolerant people are those who yell the loudest for tolerance? Their definition of free speech is that you can have complete free speech IF you agree with their views and jump on their bandwagon.
If you speak out against homosexuality you’re being intolerant, and you’re called a hater. Those who call you intolerant want to make laws that force; that make you have to be tolerant at least in the eyes of the law.
Example…..the homosexual agenda…
They would like to shut down all churches that do not accept them as clergy. And with the ACLU helping them, it’s becoming easier and easier. They will stop at nothing. It won’t matter if your church stands on scripture….they won’t tolerate this Christian worldview. Then they will try to get the Bible classified as a hate book…….because of its intolerance towards gays. It’s already happening all over the world and in our country.
This is why the Hate Crimes is so dangerous to free speech. Acceptance of ALL views doesn’t work because tolerance is so closely linked with truth. If objective truth exists, as religion maintains, then we must seek and seriously discuss it despite our differing worldviews. But… if objective truth doesn’t exist as secularism maintains, then relativism obliterates genuine differences of perspective. If no universal standards exist to which opposing parties can appeal, then a struggle or war is as likely a result as is tolerance.
Lauren statistics show that the majority of those women killing their children have multiple abortions. According to Guttmaucher Institute, “Each year, about two percent of women aged 15-44 have an abortion; 47% of them have had at least one previous abortion.” Abortion is an easy way to kill something you don’t want and last year 4 in 10 pregnancies were aborted in the United States. That means over one and a half million unborn children were killed last year. If birth control works and women were using it the right way there would not be this many abortions. I guess birth control is not that effective is it. But abortion is. it’s the one sure way to kill and solve the problem.
I research and work in the pro-life field so I am like you said passionate about the killing of our unborn children. We were founded on Judeo Christian values and morals but you are right today we live in a humanistic secular society. I believe the values that made us great are diminishing. Hate Crimes laws will silence people and make it illegal to have free speech, peaceful free speech. It will give certain groups of people more protection under the law. It will change everything about society. I wont even go into the protection and the best for our children, because I believe the gay agenda is attacking the traditional family. You asked me if I could compromise on issues. No, not if it goes against what Christ said. I believe in serving and having a Christ centered lifestyle and heart. I do not hate gays, I do not hate anyone. But I believe marriage should be between one man and one woman. I believe the best for children is one mother and one father. I believe sex should be like Christ said done between married people. You cant compromise the Word of God. In all American history we have never recognized same sex unions by calling them a marriage. Marriage worldwide mainly has always been between one man and one woman around the world. If you legalize same sex unions, then you must tolerate other marriages as well…..group marriages. Because if you did not do that, you would be the one who is intolerant. And today if you are intolerant you are simply hateful.



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Panthera

posted May 2, 2009 at 1:01 pm


The mind boggles.
The inability of conservative Christians to even consider that the arrogance inherent in their interpretation of God’s will is an affront to God is beyond any description I can manage.
Look, Churchmouse and Blue Collar Tod. We won in November 2008. You lost. It will take a while to undo the damage you have done to human rights in the US, but one thing is clear. We have the ascendancy now.
Your right to continue to believe what you will is preserved. But the era is passing when you can inflict your hateful selves on me, my husband and all the other victims of your eight year reign of terror.
And I’m out of here.
Some people need to cling to their hatred of women, gays and transgendered as the definition for their Christianity. You two are among them.



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Your Name

posted May 2, 2009 at 1:59 pm


I have no idea why my last post posted twice,sorry.
Panthera….you said, “After more than a generation of being in total power, you are now encountering one shock after the other.”
What are you implying here? A generation ? Since America was founded we have ONLY recognized marriage between one man and one woman. That encompasses more than one generation. You need to do the math on that one.
What does electing a black have to do with this? You mention this because you think I am a racist, a bigot simply because I am against same sex unions. You certainly are not very tolerant towards my views are you? First off… Obama is half white….he is not totally black. Second of all there is nothing stated in the bible that black and whites can’t marry, that different colors cant marry. You would know that if you were familiar with the scriptures. It does however mention that you must marry someone who is equally yoked in faith. That means a Christian must marry another Christian. My daughter is dating a wonderful man and he happens to be black. This country was ready for a black president and a women. But NOT OBABMA. I did not care for McCain either but his service to our country I respected so he got my vote. I could never vote Democratic because they are pro-choice/A.
A brilliant job Obama has done, you say? Please. Do you call kissing the arse of all foreign leaders brilliant? Even bowing to the Saudi King, kissing his hand? Apologizing to the world for our actions?…..As far as I am concerned he is a traitor, but the American public is so stupid they just don’t see it yet. They will. He was elected simply because he was black, certainly not on anything he ever accomplished or did. Do a Youtube on…..“Howard Stern interviews Obama supporters in Harlem“. See what his supporters had to say about his policies. I believe if Obama is anything he is an excellent deceiver. He has duped and convinced America that he is the Messiah. Farrakhan even calls him the Messiah.
“You are the instruments that God is going to use to bring about universal change, and that is why Barack has captured the youth. And he has involved young people in a political process that they didn’t care anything about. That’s a sign. When the Messiah speaks, the youth will hear, and the Messiah is absolutely speaking.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0drwfnGlF_E
I could care less what color or sex our president is. But I believe he/she should have morals something I think Obama lacks. Obama claims he is a Christian. So he thinks God would condone killing the unborn? What you show here by your slams to me is that you are the one who is intolerant, you show your hatred towards Christians. Its people like you who will attack people who disagree with you and the Hate Crimes law will help you do it.
You say Obama is an expert on the US Constitution. Maybe he can find those words, Separation of Church and State in it…..no one else has been able to find them.
Oh he can tell a story and he can lie while telling it. Like the lies that covered up his reasons for going to a church that is so anti-white. And then there was his so-called uncle, pastor Wright…..who all of a sudden conveniently disappeared because he was letting the cat out of the bag. He still won’t produce his original birth certificate. I am not so sure he is even an American. And you would have to agree he is a terrible speaker without a teleprompter come on. Here is just ONE example. He sounds like he is drunk. I can’t believe he got elected because this video is hilarious and shows he can’t do anything that is not written down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJSVPAx8xc&feature=PlayList&p=C615B0FEC208CD01&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=45
I do not endorse torture and no one I know who is a Christian endorses it either. Again your hatred is showing for people who love Christ. You make a lot of assumptions that just are not right. You make them out of ignorance and hatred. You are so intolerant.
I believe that state by state gay marriage will pass I have no doubt about this. I believe group marriage will also be legal one day. And because of this the family unit will dissolve and we will fall even further down that dark tunnel. God is in control it is in His hands. Our country does not deserve God blessings, we are an immoral nation that has turned its back against Him and the unrighteous will pay dearly. I will continue to stand on the Word of God and stand up for what I believe is right basing this on the Bible. God says homosexual sex is sin. Find me one scripture that says differently. Find one same sex couple that God blesses.
I will continue to love even those I believe are sinners because if God could forgive me my sins, I can forgive others. I shall continue to speak out against all sin because that is the reason Christ came to save sinners. Sin separates one from God and if you love someone you want the best for them. God does forgive. But you have to repent in order for Him to forgive. Gay sex is sin. Heterosexual sex is sin if outside marriage. You cant sin, ask forgiveness, sin ask forgiveness …….knowingly sinning by slapping God in the face and asking forgiveness. He makes it plainly clear in the Bible what is sin, there is no excuse for not recognizing it. The trouble is, you want it YOUR WAY NOT HIS. You try to find an “out” and there isn’t any. God is clear who He says should be married. A man should leave his parents and join and become ONE with his Wife and she was created female.
I do not bash you, I simply say to you what I say to others that sin, and what others say to me when I sin. You are doing wrong by Gods law. I don’t rape you either. I have never said a mean or cruel word to anyone gay. I do not torture you either. Maybe the sin you are committing is the torture. And you have rights, we all have rights. But you should not have more protection than any other person in this country and that is what the Hate Crimes law will do.
You say God has turned his back on me simply because states are allowing gays to marry? That is one thing my dear you can never take from me. Free speech you can……but not my faith in God. You cant change what He has written. You can rape the Word all you want….but change what God says is sin……you can not. You like every other person that has ever lived will pay, because God will judge you on what you said and did, He will judge you on who you thought He was.
You said, “I happen to have made the personal acquaintance of a long-haired, sandal wearing Jewish Rabi who is good at casting out evil spirits. If you like, I’d love to introduce you to him.”
This shows your hatred for me and for God. You mentioned love earlier…….are you showing love towards me? Are you being tolerant of my beliefs especially when they come from the Bible. You have a beef with God you should take it up with Him, I simply follow what He commands. And you would to if you had Him in your heart.
I’ll finish with this.
I do not know why people show hatred towards gay people. They obviously do not and have not experienced Gods love in their own lives because we all sin. If they are a Christian they obviously have never read Christs own words about loving, even their enemy. Those that believe God are separated from Him when they hate. We are all sinners. We have all come short of what God expects of us. So when I say I believe that the gay lifestyle is not aligned to what Gods standards are for us, that does not mean I hate anyone. I had a friend a few years back who was actively cheating on her husband. You think I kept my mouth shut? She was wrong, she was sinning and I let her know that and I based it on scripture. That did not mean that I did not love her. I told her how I felt because I loved her. She has done the same for me.
I can’t in any way understand Gods reasons for what He does. He is a just and loving God but He will not tolerate sin and sin is clear in the Bible. Homosexual sex is sin. Marriage is for one man and one woman, this is biblical. If you are a Christian this should mean something to you.
Romans 1:17-18 says, In the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “BUT THE RIGHTEOUS MAN SHALL LIVE BY FAITH.” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.”



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churchmouse

posted May 2, 2009 at 2:44 pm


“The inability of conservative Christians to even consider that the arrogance inherent in their interpretation of God’s will is an affront to God is beyond any description I can manage.”
The Bible states that sex outside marriage is sin. The Bible says that same sex unions are wrong and immoral. God said for a man and woman to become one in marriage.
SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE, ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE GOD CONDONES SAME SEX MARRIAGE. SHOW ME ONE IN THE OT OR THE NT, WHERE SEX IS OK OUTSIDE MARRIAGE.
What did Christ say? You want me for the sake of your sin to say it is ok? No way. If I had an affair on my husband I wouldn’t ask you to throw out the verses that say adultery is wrong, so that I would feel good.
You want Christians to throw His Word out because you want to glorify what He says is SIN.
I know you won in November so what? Move on for crying out loud……..Human rights? Oh please. I am praying for Obama because I believe he is not saved that he is a Christian in name only. I believe he is an evil man, what can I say. I do not respect his administration or his policies because I believe they are anti-God. You cant live one way at home and the other at the office.
We will slip into moral decay even further because of him and people who do not believe there is a right and wrong. You don’t get Gods blessings by sinning.
I do not hate anyone, that concept you cant see because you are the one who is hating. You hate me, its not the other way around.
If you are having sex with a person of your sex, GOD SAYS YOU ARE SINNING. It cant get easier than that. As I said, if you are ticked off at God take it up with Him. I did not make the laws.
You sure like to play the “woe is me” card. I would never hurt a fly, that much you don’t get. You bash me for following Gods law….. that if you were a Christian you would be following yourself.
I pray that God softens your heart that you would stop hating. I pray that one day you will seek Him out and have the faith that what he says you should do, you take seriously. I pray you find peace in HIS WORD and that you reject your idea of what is right and wrong.
God Bless



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Husband

posted May 2, 2009 at 3:57 pm


churchmouse,
R:
“The Bible states that sex outside marriage is sin. The Bible says …”
What you fail to realize or acknowledge or understand or accept is that, in America, it doesn’t matter WHAT the Bible sez or doesn’t say. Nor does it matter what the Q’uran says. Nor the Book of Kells, the Book of Tao, the Book of Mormon, the Torah or any other Scripture, for that matter.
America promises ALL of its citizens freedom of (and from) religion. That means we don’t have to believe what you believe. You’re welcome to your beliefs and you are free to express them (despite your claim to the contrary – your very posts here disprove your claim). What you refuse to do is grant people who believe differently than you do the same courtesy.
“SHOW ME ONE EXAMPLE, ONE SCRIPTURE WHERE GOD CONDONES …”
Sorry, but we don’t have to show you anything. Nor do we have to live according to the tenets of your religion. (Hint: I don’t go to your Church. I go to my own. Thanks anyway.)
You want to live in a theocracy? Go to Iran.
Meanwhile, be healed. That, or go read ALL of Leviticus and start putting the victims of incest to death, stone your disobedient kids to death, deny communion to the disabled, and for heaven’s sake, give up shrimp. It’s an abomination, apparently. Not unlike polyester.



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Your Name

posted May 2, 2009 at 4:09 pm


Blue Collar Tod,
“I am expressing love to them by calling them to repent from the sin of homosexuality.”
Bully for you. And we are expressing love to bigots by calling them to repent from the sin of bigotry. It seems ignoring that and encouraging bigotry is a true expression of hate since you are promoting the damnation of their souls.
I’d say we’re square.



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Corey

posted May 2, 2009 at 4:22 pm


My problem with legislation is that with the exception of statuatory rape,ALL crime is rooted isn HATE,when asked what the greatest commandments are,,JESUS said Love God then your neighbor if you love your neighbor even if his “sin” isn’t yours or he voted(as I did) for Obama or McCain(a good man,patriot&christian,with his views especially with regards to torture) you can disagree without being disagreeable,certainly I would not want anyone inprison or persecuted for his beliefs whether I agreed them or not:O)



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hoser

posted May 2, 2009 at 5:29 pm


Sex outside marriage is sin? Really?
Did Solomon have 800 wives and 300 concubines? Forgive me if I am off by a few hundred since I’m not going to bother looking it up. I burned all my Bibles anyway. The “context”, as big-head Tod enjoys harping on, was that this was a Glorius Thing. The author was jubilant to report that Solomon had so many women.
What did Nathan the prophet say to David when confronting his adultry with Bathseba. Something like “wouldn’t God have given you so many more if you had asked”.
Again, look it up yourself.
I can name numerous contexts where one man/one woman was not only not condemned in scripture, but enthusiastically encouraged.
Job was rewarded for his faithfulness with more wives.
Who did Noah’s kids have sex with, and who performed the wedding ceremony? Incest, and condoned by scripture.
Blah, blah, blah…
I could go on forever.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 2, 2009 at 5:49 pm


@hoser,
The point is the others are arguing that homosexuality is compatible with being a Christian. For the sake of argument I will grant that all these other practices were practiced in those particular instances. BUT YET, no where in the entire Bible Old or New Testament is homosexuality ever condoned in any situation.
@Your name: bye the way, at least take the responsibility and claim your comments,
If we follow your logic then calling one to repent from any sexual sin is being bigoted. To say adultery is wrong is being bigoted, or incest, or rape for that matter. You cannot isolate just the one sexual act, homosexuality, and claim that only those who engage in it cannot refrain from doing so. Then the man or woman who cheats on their spouse cannot but do, then the pedophile cannot but do it. I think we are all morally accountable for our behavior, sexual or not, and it is more consistent than your position that only homosexuality is a protected type of sexual sin.



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churchmouse

posted May 2, 2009 at 8:19 pm


Panthera said, “Jesus offered us salvation through grace. He never limited that to heterosexuals.”
Yes he did. He came for the sinner who has no way of getting to heaven without Him. But when he came he talked about sin. There is only one sin that keeps one from heaven and that is denial of Christ. If you deny who He is, what He said, and what He came to do, then you will NOT receive eternal life. The thief on the cross did no good works in Christs name. He was not baptized and Christ said, that today he would be with Him in Paradise.
But sin separates one from God because of His very nature. He is Holy and sin is the opposite of Holy. We all sin, we all fall short. I have committed terrible sins in my life. I had an abortion when I was twenty years old. I am now 53. I was a Christian in name only and for years I did NOT walk in the light. I chose to walk according to my rules. I thought societies values trumped Gods. I am blessed to have had Christians in my life that cared for me enough to tell me that my actions were anything but godly. I had an abortion, drank, swore and I pretended it did not matter. God is love and because of that, no matter what I did He would overlook it. I suffered for years and even thought about suicide. Why would God have blessed my life when I did not do my part and believe and live the way He told me to live. On 9-11 as the buildings in New York came down I accepted Christ and began to read the scriptures. I opened my heart and the Holy Spirit changed me. I started to put Gods principles into action. I began loving even those who hated me. Telling someone they are sinning is not hating them, its loving them.
Any sex outside the boundaries of marriage is sin. I asked before for someone to give me any example in either the NT or the OT where God addresses a same sex couple and condones their actions. Where does God talk about a man leaving his parents for another man? Or a woman to cleave unto another woman. Why if God condoned this would he not include one example in all of the Christian Word.
Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
“Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10 nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Why should churches remain silent on this issue and cave into political correctness? God didn’t. He has not been silent on this issue, nor has He changed His position. This has nothing to do with loving someone or not. This has to do with actions that DO NOT PLEASE GOD.
My religion does NOT teach to hate the homosexual. If you had read the Bible you would know that the only sin that will keep you from going to heaven, is to deny Christ, it’s NOT homosexuality. If you do not accept Jesus then you do not have forgiveness. But your sexual actions with a same sex partner does not honor God, that is scriptural. For a church to accept homosexuals, to love them, minister to them and help them find deliverance from bondage is one thing. For a church to accept homosexual behavior in the congregation or anywhere else and imply that it is normal is a surrender to scriptures and political correctness so valued today. Today it’s more important to stand on what the world says is the truth, then to stand on God’s truth. I stand on Gods truth.
Gwyddion9 you seem very hateful and angry. Have you ever read the Christian scriptures? If you did you would know that what Todd and I are saying is true. We did not write the scriptures, God inspired men to write them for Him. Have you ever read a history book? While we are not a Christian nation today we certainly were at our Founding. It kills me the liberals today that deny our heritage just because they hate Christians.
As for AIDS…….if people lived according to Gods Word we would not have STD’s.



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churchmouse

posted May 2, 2009 at 11:22 pm


Yes we should love our neighbor but we are talking about sin here…what is right and what is wrong in Gods eyes.
What did Christ say about sin?
The death of Christ was necessary to vindicate the righteousness of God in justifying the ungodly by faith. Sin means something to God. It would be unrighteous to forgive sinners as though their sin were insignificant, when in all reality it is an infinite insult against the value of God’s glory.
1 Timothy 4:10 says that Christ is “the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.” I am not sure he looks at everyone the same way.
Christ’s death clearly demonstrates God’s abhorrence of sin. The key in determining who is truly a Christian and who is not, can be revealed by the way they live their lives and their attitude toward sin. Those that deny they are in sin seem to be content with having habitual sin rule their lives.Does not bother them whatsoever. Their salvation might be secured in Christ but that does not mean God justifies what they are doing. God teaches and He disciplines and He spanks those He loves. A connection with Christ comes from the relationship one has with Him. Some people claim to be Christian and you would never know it by their actions. They pick and choose what they want to believe in the Bible and what they want to reject. Its not ironic that many sinners toss out the scriptures that convict them. A truly born again believer has a different attitude toward sin than the unsaved. The Bible clearly teaches that the lost man is a slave to sin. “For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit” (Romans 8:5)
Sex outside marriage is sin.



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Panthera

posted May 3, 2009 at 2:02 am


Churchmouse,
I would appreciate it if you would use a genuine Bible when proof-texting passages.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (King James Version)
9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God
1 Korinther 6:9-10 (Luther Bibel 1545)
9Wisset ihr nicht, daß die Ungerechten das Reich Gottes nicht ererben werden? Lasset euch nicht verführen! Weder die Hurer noch die Abgöttischen noch die Ehebrecher noch die Weichlinge noch die Knabenschänder
10noch die Diebe noch die Geizigen noch die Trunkenbolde noch die Lästerer noch die Räuber werden das Reich Gottes ererben.
And the Vulgate:
9 An nescitis quia iniqui regnum Dei non possidebunt? Nolite errare: neque fornicarii, neque idolis servientes, neque adulteri,
10 neque molles, neque masculorum concubitores, neque fures, neque avari, neque ebriosi, neque maledici, neque rapaces regnum Dei possidebunt.
Not one single mention of “homosexuals”.
The closest one might come, were one to take Paul literally (dangerous, he contradicts himself in several verses), might be the reference to “abusers of themselves with mankind” in the King James or the Latin reference to sex with male prostitutes.
The German text is only concerned with men who are cowardly, preferring to get very upset with pedophiles.
There is, of course, a far more serious problem with your bigoted, hateful arguments than only your use of texts bearing false witness.
That is your presumption that only heterosexuals may go to heaven.
First, you define “sin” as whatever you want it to be.
Then, you demand that homosexual orientation, which is immutable and not a choice, be defined as a sin.
Next, you set this orientation equal to denying God.
Even if we were to accept your absurd premise, and I for one do not, the assumption that God’s forgiveness is reserved to all sinners except homosexuals is mean hearted beyond description. Were you to spend your time reading a real Bible, you would know that we all commit sin all the time. Our only salvation lies in God’s forgiveness through the grace of Christ’s death for our sins.
My sexual orientation is not a sin. That doesn’t change the fact that I do commit many sins, sadly. Just, being gay is not one of them. Nor is loving my husband, also physically through sex.
Or are you seriously suggesting that you have never, ever committed a sin of any sort since you were saved? Fascinating, I count at least five cases of bearing false witness, several more of anger and pleasure at the thought of others being punished.
Look, you are free to pursue your version of Christianity, pretend that silly book which is not the Bible is the Bible and all. This, however, is America and you are not free to impose your ignorance and intolerance on my family.
If ever we needed an object lesson for the 14th Amendment to the Constitution, you and Blue Collar Todd are it. Not to mention that the 1st Amendment does not grant you the right to determine which version of Christianity shall govern.
Perhaps you should add the US Constitution and Amendments to your purchase list for the next time you go to a bookstore. Try putting a real Bible on there, too, while you are at it.



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usman

posted May 3, 2009 at 4:20 am

Panthera

posted May 3, 2009 at 5:26 am


Blue Collar Tod,
We are not arguing from the false position that homosexuality is sinful.
That would be just as absurd as the argument that because a very great number of Catholic priests abuse little children, all Catholic priests are pedophiles. Some just haven’t been caught yet. Or, the Pope is an accessory after the fact because he has permitted personal friends who are known pedophiles to keep their authority in the Church. Who would ever think such a thing?
Homosexuality, like heterosexuality is a normal, genetically determined sexual state. There is good reason why both medicine and science reject your position that sexual orientation is chosen. It isn’t. This conclusion was already firm enough by the early 1970’s for even Americans to abandon their position of submitting us to electro-shock therapy and castration. Not to mention lobotomies. I can document all of them, on many occasions through many decades so skip the usual fundamentalist defense of “isolated extreme incident”. It wasn’t. And it is obvious that you would do the same to us today if you still could.
All of which were used against us. When they failed, doctors accepted that not even torturing us could change our sexuality.
Now, of course, we have documented evidence of the benefits of homosexuality in many thousands of animal species. In man, there is hard (if not yet conclusive) evidence that families with a higher proportion of gay offspring have a higher success level in raising their heterosexual children to maturity than families which have few or no gay children.
The Bible is not meant to be taken literally.
Even if it were, when loving same sex relationships are mentioned, they are held up as excellent examples. Ever hear of these three couples?
* Ruth and Naomi
* David and Jonathan
* Daniel and Ashpenaz
Or are you also using some sort of perverted fundamentalist American Christian “Bible” like Churchmouse? One which conveniently tells you what to think by putting things in which are not in the Christian Bible and taking things out which are in conflict with the goals of American conservatives?



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Your Name

posted May 3, 2009 at 11:46 am


I would like to insert a statment to Dr. David Gushee.
Sir you defend something that God Hates, he destroyed because of Homosexuality, what you have done is taken the scripture, and done what Paul lead by the Holy Spirit warned Timothy to be aware of in II Timothy 4:. You need to be careful, that you “do not” give souls the wrong Idea, which will cause them to stumble.
I pray that I am not one of those who stands before God, and he says to me I never knew you in Lk.13:27.
God does not approve of homosexuality, Leviticus 18:22;20:13,
Romans 1:24-27. Homosexuality is sinful, and the person, of persons,that partakes in this must do as all of us sinners do!
REPENT turn away from our sins to be saved Act 2:38.
Love the Sinner, and Hate the Sin.IJohn 4:8ff.
Stop analyzing the word of God with your Philosophy, and teach it as it is; stop adding what you beleive, and add what God beleives, you will be held accountable.
In the name who’s name is above all Jesus:



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Your Name

posted May 3, 2009 at 1:56 pm


Panthera, just to clarify that the three loving, same sex relationships you mentioned from the Bible were strictly platonic – you failed to mention that. Jesus did not come to abolish the law, He came to uphold it – and yes, homosexuality is an abomination to God. It is a major reason He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. Nevertheless, we are to hate the sin, not the sinner, and yes, we do all sin, but we must recognize the sin, repent, turn from it, ask for forgiveness and do this continually. To say that something clearly defined by God as a sin – is not a sin – is to say that God is wrong. Hello! I wouldn’t want to be at the end of that lightening bolt!! Truly, you must be in agony at all times trying to justify a lifestyle that you believe is unchangeable. Nothing is impossible with God. God bless you.



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Lauren

posted May 3, 2009 at 2:05 pm


Churchmouse,
“We have a new tolerance today. This new tolerance is that I I have to ACCEPT those values, lifestyles I reject as absolutely equal to and valid as my own. I do not want to hire a cross dresser to work in my business. But I am FORCED TO HIRE ONE If I live in California. Forced or go to jail and pay a huge fine. If you do not accept wrong today as right, you get in trouble.”
You should not be forced to hire anyone you do not wish to. But I have to ask, what is intrinsic about being transgendered that negatively impacts the transgender’s job performance or capacity to adequately serve your business? You may be passing up an excellent worker, and perhaps hurting your business, due to prejudice.
“Lauren statistics show that the majority of those women killing their children have multiple abortions….”
Interesting research. As a pro choice individual, prevention is paramount. Where are we failing that women go in for multiple abortions?
“I wont even go into the protection and the best for our children, because I believe the gay agenda is attacking the traditional family… In all American history we have never recognized same sex unions by calling them a marriage. Marriage worldwide mainly has always been between one man and one woman around the world. If you legalize same sex unions, then you must tolerate other marriages as well…..group marriages. Because if you did not do that, you would be the one who is intolerant. And today if you are intolerant you are simply hateful.”
Respectfully, on the protection of children issue…gay individuals are amongst the foremost of people to adopt children that are not “perfect” and have disabilities, multiple races and beyond. Gay individuals have protected and cared for children that would have otherwise have been discarded to the foster system. For thousands of years, even mentioned in the Bible, different marriage arrangements other than one man one woman have been engaged. Furthermore, with a divorce rate of around 60% in our country, why do you blame the gays for the “destruction of traditional marriage”?



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Panthera

posted May 3, 2009 at 2:23 pm


“Your Name”
Whoever that may be –
Nonsense. God loves me just as I am. He made me gay.
If your twisted interpretation of the Bible demands their love be platonic, then that is your problem. Try actually reading the entire Bible instead of cherry-picking for a change.
“Your Name#2″
I have lived the last 24 years of my life in happy, true, faithful, monogamous bliss (the last four legally married) with the same man.
We live in Europe, in a civilized country, where gay Christians are welcome and being gay is not an issue or problem.
But since you are so casually throwing your pseudo-Christian weight around, here’s something for you to chew on.
My parents live in the US. Both were severely injured in a horrible car crash a few years ago. My entire American family, all of whom stand to inherit millions, live within five miles of my parents.
None of them, all good fundamentalist, evangelical Christians (and devout Republicans) can be bothered to move in with my parents and help them.
None of them.
My husband and I are splitting our lives between Europe and the US in order to make sure someone is always with my parents. Right now, he is over there as I have responsibilities here which can not be ended from one month to the next. A replacement for me must be found and trained.
My gay, Christian husband of four years and exclusive monogamous, faithful and true partner for over 24 is there helping my parents.
Now, in the last 10 years we have both been physically attacked and beaten by my oh-so-Christian American relations. When my husband, who is not quite 5’7″ tried to protect me, lying on the ground with my teeth kicked in, a detached retina and several broken bones, my oh-so-Christian relations beat him so badly – several of them, that he nearly died from a punctured lung.
How dare you try to tell me what it is to be a Christian. How dare you tell me that I am not a true Christian and that God does not honor my salvation.
You and all the other conservative American Christians around here have perverted God’s word and ignored his will to your own ends for too long. Now the times are changing and we will be free, even in the US.
Take your “hate the sin and love the sinner” attitude and your smug self-righteousness and put them away. Try actually practicing some of the charitable commands from the Bible.
Or, if charity is beyond you, might I suggest you try listening to some advice from that long-haired, sandal-wearing Jewish Rabi, good old what’s-his-name. Nobody as important as Paul, of course:
Matthew 7:5
“Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.”



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Your Name

posted May 3, 2009 at 8:59 pm


To PANTHERA: My beloved brother – also adopted from another family – was gay since the day he was born. I agree that homosexuality IS genetic; at an early age, my brother “played” with cross dressing – my Dad even has a picture of him in a dress and make-up! He seemed to like the girls until about age 11 – when he was “turned” by a gay interior designer for whom he worked. John (brother) studied interior design in Chicago, then moved to New York, where he was an esteemed member of the design community.
He had a constant, loving companion for about 10 years, who spent most of his time in CA. Unfortunately, in 1984, John contracted the HIV virus, and came to VA to live with me. He was in remission for almost 2 years; then, in 2001, he went blind and had peripheral neuropathy, so was confined to a nursing home. I took him out for drives and to treat him to restaurant meals almost to the end. When his time came, he retreated to his bed, never to regain consciousness. I was unable to be with him at the end – something I regret to this day.
I do NOT believe homosexuality is a disease – I am bipolar, and THAT is a disorder. My brother was the kindest, gentleist soul you would ever want to meet. He conveyed to me that one time he was assaulted and thrown on the ground for being gay. THAT broke my heart.
So “YOUR NAME” – open your mind and accept those who are “different” from you. I grew to accept John for WHO he was, not WHAT he was. I am perfectly aware of what it says in the Bible about “a man lying with a man,” and believe that was religious instruction for those times. John couldn’t HELP what he was; I’m sure that if he had a choice, it would NOT be to be gay. To this day, I pray for his soul and a LOVING God who takes in ALL of His beloved.



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SuzanneWA

posted May 3, 2009 at 9:01 pm


I wrote the above letter about my brother John – it was a technical error that my name WASN’T included – I was PROUD of John,and loved him VERY much.



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churchmouse

posted May 3, 2009 at 9:56 pm


Husband said, “America promises ALL of its citizens freedom of (and from) religion. That means we don’t have to believe what you believe. You’re welcome to your beliefs and you are free to express them (despite your claim to the contrary – your very posts here disprove your claim). What you refuse to do is grant people who believe differently than you do the same courtesy.”
No you don’t have to believe what I believe, you never did. So let me ask you this. You obviously feel that I have no right to stop gays or lesbians from getting married. Do you also think groups should be able to get married? Or does your tolerance only go so far? Do you afford groups the same courtesy?
“Sorry, but we don’t have to show you anything. Nor do we have to live according to the tenets of your religion. (Hint: I don’t go to your Church. I go to my own. Thanks anyway.)’
There are some that say the Christian God does not look down on homosexuality, that there isn’t anything in the bible that says same sexes cant marry. I say back it up with scripture. Your failure to do this says one thing, you couldn’t find any.
You go to your own church. Curious what is their position on same sex marriage?
“Meanwhile, be healed. That, or go read ALL of Leviticus and start putting the victims of incest to death, stone your disobedient kids to death, deny communion to the disabled, and for heaven’s sake, give up shrimp. It’s an abomination, apparently. Not unlike polyester.”
Be healed? Am I sick? Or aren’t you tolerant enough to stand me?
Your name said, “Bully for you. And we are expressing love to bigots by calling them to repent from the sin of bigotry. It seems ignoring that and encouraging bigotry is a true expression of hate since you are promoting the damnation of their souls.
I’d say we’re square.”
No need to get upset and call names. You show no love here and you know it. You show no tolerance either. Todd and I happen to stand on the Word of God, we believe that the Word is the Truth. You reject the Word and think everyone should reject the Word because it is intolerant. I say if you believe in God and hate the Word take it up with Him. And if you don’t, then for you truth is in the eye of the beholder. You can make up your own truth.
Panthera said, “There is, of course, a far more serious problem with your bigoted, hateful arguments than only your use of texts bearing false witness.”
I gave scripture and it is correct. My arguments are Gods Words not my own. They call the unrighteous out. And what don’t you get? Why cant you comprehend what I said earlier. I never said homosexuals could not go to heaven. I SAID THAT I BELIEVED THAT THERE WAS ONLY ONE SIN THAT KEEPS ONE FROM HEAVEN, DENIAL OF CHRIST. Why is that so hard for you to get? Sex outside marriage is sin even for the heterosexual. Do you get this? Or do I need to explain it one more time. If one is having sex outside marriage THEY ARE SINNING ACCORDING TO THE WORD. And the Word says only men and women can marry. Again show me a verse where God says differently.
You are the one throwing sin out of the bible. God tells us what sin is in the Bible. If you read the scriptures you would know that, you would know what sin is.
You said, “Then, you demand that homosexual orientation, which is immutable and not a choice, be defined as a sin.”
Sex is a choice. To have sex is a choice. And if you want to be a Christian you must follow what Christ said, whether you understand or like it or not. Its not about what WE think, its about what Christ said. God is plainly clear what sin is especially sex sin.
You are way way way off base, your hateful disposition is getting the best of you. GET THIS STRAIGHT RIGHT HERE. I never said homosexuals could not be forgiven. NEVER. Post where I said this or take it back.
You say I should read a real Bible? What in your opinion is a real Bible? One where the sin has been taken out of it by people who don’t want to be convicted of it?
“My sexual orientation is not a sin. That doesn’t change the fact that I do commit many sins, sadly. Just, being gay is not one of them. Nor is loving my husband, also physically through sex.”
I NEVER SAID YOUR SEXUAL ORIENTATION WAS SIN. I SAID SEX BETWEEN TWO OF THE SAME SEX IS SIN. I SAID SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IS SIN. GOD SAYS SEX SHOULD BE BETWEEN THOSE WHO ARE MARRIED, WHICH IS ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.
Show me in your real bible, one example of scripture where God condones same sex marriage or sex outside marriage.
I certainly have sinned since I was saved. But the Holy Spirit has convicted me and I stay away from sinful temptations that at one time weighed on my heart. I do not go to xrated movies, nor do I put myself in places where I might be temped. I try and pray daily and I have gotten better, but no one is perfect, certainly not me. You are confusing sinning and salvation. I recognize when I sin and I repent and pray never to do it again. I don’t sin thinking its ok God will forgive me.
Which version of Christianity do you prefer Panthera? One with no sin? One where God doesn’t care what you do?
God says homosexual sex is sin. God says any sex outside marriage is sin. Premarital sex is sin against a Holy God. You have a beef with God, I pray you talk and pray to Him that He would convict your heart about this.
Show me my error. Show me verses in the bible that say differently than what I am saying here. I want to see them.
You mentioned these couples.
“Even if it were, when loving same sex relationships are mentioned, they are held up as excellent examples. Ever hear of these three couples?
* Ruth and Naomi
* David and Jonathan
* Daniel and Ashpenaz”
Where does it say they were married, where they had sex. They might have loved each other but not in the way you think they loved. If what you said was true then everything else in the Bible are lies. There is no evidence of sexual love whatsoever between these people, you are grasping at straws. Just because they loved each other and were faithful does not mean they had a sexual relationship. I have a friend I love dearly and I would do anything for her. Our friendship has remained true for over 40 years. None of these couples were married to one another, why? If you say that they were couples, why did they not marry?
Mat 19:4-6 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made [them] at the beginning made them male and female. For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh
Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.”
This is Gods intentions for the family unit. It was gods plan for one woman and one man to become one.
Panthera said, “He made me gay.” Did He also cause you to sin? How much will you blame on God. You don’t seem to want to take responsibility for any of your actions. Did God created people specifically to be alcoholics? Drug addicts? Adulterers?
Come on. If you have sex outside marriage its sin. I am happy you live in Europe but all that says is that Europe is not standing on the Word either. I don’t care where you live, the Word is the Word and sin is sin. Because you surround yourself with people who makes you feel good about sin……well is that good?
The story about your parents is sad and I am sorry. Not all Christians like I said act and live the Word. Christ said to love and to help and have a giving heart. And if they act the way you describe they are not good Christians. You attack me unfairly Panthera and you show that you do not live how you are telling me to live and that is to love even your enemy. Your hatred shows.
I am not going to change my mind on this issue because I believe the Word so I am sorry. If you think I hate you, you are wrong. I just believe you are sinning. It has nothing to do with your salvation or not. That much you obviously do NOT get. I have no perverted Gods Word, I can read for myself what it says and I think underneath you know it too.
Sin blinds people to their own foolish rationale.
Lauren said, “You should not be forced to hire anyone you do not wish to. But I have to ask, what is intrinsic about being transgendered that negatively impacts the transgender’s job performance or capacity to adequately serve your business? You may be passing up an excellent worker, and perhaps hurting your business, due to prejudice.”
I said I should not be forced, I did not say I would personally not hire one although Deut 22:5 talks about cross dressing and that it is wrong. I would never hire anyone with piercing all over their face. This is an image I would not want at my business. Should Hooters be forced to hire heavy girls to work in those skimpy outfits? If I owned a Christian bookstore should I be forced to hire an atheist or Satanist?
If you are pro-choice then you condone abortion. Your position is not pro-life. Is there something wrong with abortion Lauren? If you think there is nothing wrong with it, then why would you want it limited or the numbers reduced?
We live in a sexually open society…..I am sure you have heard of Friends with Benefits, right? We had a president that said, oral sex was not sex for crying out loud. If it isn’t sex then how many of you will let me have oral sex with your husbands. LOL
“So “YOUR NAME” – open your mind and accept those who are “different” from you. I grew to accept John for WHO he was, not WHAT he was. I am perfectly aware of what it says in the Bible about “a man lying with a man,” and believe that was religious instruction for those times. John couldn’t HELP what he was; I’m sure that if he had a choice, it would NOT be to be gay. To this day, I pray for his soul and a LOVING God who takes in ALL of His beloved.”
I just do not understand what you people do not get. I am a Christian first. I believe the Word of God which is the Bible. I have studied it and I know what it says. God makes it plainly clear what sin is. He does not say hate the sinner. I don’t hate anyone I just stand on the Truth of God. Homosexual sex is sin. Heterosexual sex outside marriage is sin. They are all the same……sin. I am not going to hate someone because they sin, I love people. But I have to stand on what I believe is the truth. I will not water down the Word to make anyone feel better about their sin. My uncle is gay. He knows how I feel and loves me as I love him. It is His life not mine. But he does not claim to be a Christian. He knows what the Word says and he knows my position and why I believe what I do. I do not hate anyone.
We all can help what we DO. We have free will. And God will hold us all accountable for OUR OWN ACTIONS.
You say you believe the OT was cultural that we should not pay any attention to it. It says its an abomination for a man to lie with another man. So toss that out. Do you also toss the verse out that comes after that one that says,
Leviticus 18:30 “Do not have sexual relations with an animal and defile yourself with it. A woman must not present herself to an animal to have sexual relations with it; that is a perversion.”
So should this be tossed out too? Maybe adultery was cultural and should be ok today?
You need to look at what Christ said about marriage. He never mentions same sex unions, never. In all the OT or NT not one couple of same sex is honored by God. Why? Christ backed up the creation story in Genesis of one woman and one man.
God says, “Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” Hebrews 13:4
I am curious as to what you would say God means by sexually immoral.



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Lauren

posted May 3, 2009 at 10:25 pm


“I said I should not be forced, I did not say I would personally not hire one although Deut 22:5 talks about cross dressing and that it is wrong. I would never hire anyone with piercing all over their face. This is an image I would not want at my business.”
Fair enough, but we are always called to look beyond appearances and into the heart and capabilities of others.
“If you are pro-choice then you condone abortion. Your position is not pro-life. Is there something wrong with abortion Lauren? If you think there is nothing wrong with it, then why would you want it limited or the numbers reduced?”
This question is often asked by pro life individuals and I’m glad you brought it up.
I am pro choice not pro life. Abortion is a medical procedure that is unnecessary if proper precautions are taken. My paramount focus as a pro choice individual is on the prevention of unwanted pregnancies. After a woman goes in for her first abortion, I would want her afterwords to be armed with information, contraceptives, etc so she will not have to undergo a second abortion….because, as I wrote before, abortions are much more costly than contraceptives and the woman is undergoing surgery that always carries some level of risk…best to prevent the need for one in the first place, don’t you agree?



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The Dissident

posted May 3, 2009 at 10:27 pm


Churchmouse, pipe down.
The polygamy argument was used before in the white/black races marrying battle 40 yrs ago, it was a sham argument then it is a sham argument now. No one has a biological need to “get laid my many different women that are married to me” in the words of Jon Stewart, OTOH gay people actually exist and just because their biological wiring is different from yours does not give you the right to discriminate against them. If anything biblegod absolutely loves polygamy anyway, you should be careful about raising that argument.
“Bible sez, God sez” absolutely nothing. No book can claim divine authority just because it says so, this is circular reasoning. God has not said anything directly on the issue period, the whole point of fundamentalism is to attribute god’s will to an indirect vehicle and that vehicle has some obvious and glaring problems. It is full of inconsistencies, corruptions and later interpolations,(not to mention it butchers science)-modern scholars have known this for upwards of 200 yrs. There is no one single Bible anyway, there are at least three-Catholic, Protestant, and Ethiopian Orthodox, not to mention thousands of different christian sects with thousands of different translations and views on the bible and doctrines anyway. You say your sect is the only true one with all the “Right” ideas? Prove it. Beyond some mindless bible babble that is.
No one has a monopoly on god, no one can say that they know god’s will about anything-the evidence does not support you. However there is one piece of scripture I take very seriously, “I am my brother’s keeper” and I will continue to support my oppressed brothers and sisters no matter what.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 2:24 am


Any nation that strays from God’s laws will face strife and wither in battle with evil. We should not allow any deviant to influence or control any Human activity. We should pray for them and deny them any media attention and forums. They can live together and be damned if God so judges them, so that the nation can get on with more important matters.
Most important is how many Caucasions are insensitive to God’s command that we all respect and love each other as He told us to do.
The overwhelming usage of “race” is designed to seperate and control. In order to stop the hate on all levels we must aknowledge this truth.



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Reverend Sarah

posted May 4, 2009 at 2:28 am


Mary, Your citation of this ” In 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (TNIV), Paul says:
“ Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.”
Is Wrong b/c if you go by the King James Version Like most churches and most actual Christians do it states “1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. ” It does Not say homosexual at all in the verse or in the Bible. Only just recently By Man did it make its way into a Bible and only did Man put it their and only will he put it in their.
I believe that God made Homosexuals the way they are for a reason and that reason is to show Gods infinite Wisdom and we won’t Know what it is until we are with God.
Yes God sent down the Bible and God is infallible But it does not mean the Bible is infallible because it was written by The Hand Of Man And Man is Infallible. Man has Changed the Bible look at the Catholics for that, they have added and deleted stuff out of the Bible because it show Jesus as human which he is. He is not the only Son of God Every one is the son or daughter of God. nor is he the only Prophet of God: Muhammad, Moses, and Abraham are the other but you could also say Mahatma Gandhi and Siddhartha Gautama are prophets of God too. Which i do.



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 3:17 am


Churchmouse
You seek to deny me my love for my husband and his for me.
I tell you to mind your own business and keep your hatred to yourself or at least within your twisted church.
You respond that destroying my marriage and tearing us apart is your business.
I point out that you really, really need to get your version of Christianity out of the legal status of my marriage.
You redouble your efforts to impose your twisted will upon me.
Unending. And, pointless.
Now that Bush#43 and the other torturers are out of power, you have lost your last political support for oppressing us. America is a civilized country, not an Islamic State.
Nobody cares whether you agree with us or not. We do require of you, however, that you stop the oppression.
It is that simple.



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Sue

posted May 4, 2009 at 3:24 am


Revend Sarah
Define “effeminate”.



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SJS

posted May 4, 2009 at 3:52 am


The moment the people allow politicians, politicians! to make laws regarding YOUR morality, not THEIRS, something is wrong. Is hate wrong? Usually. However, the problem is this bill affects Free Speech ! Wake up America, because if you need your government to tell you right from wrong you deserve what you will get.



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:06 am


SJS,
Free speech is protected by the First Amendment.
Inciting attacks on gays, transgendered and Christians is not.
What part of “your right to wave your fist through the air ends where my nose begins” don’t you understand?



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:22 am


“Effeminate” means whatever the ruling class of insecure heterosexual men want it to mean.
Here in Europe, we have have gay rugby players who play something very like American football, but without all the sissy-padding and helmets. Many of them have now posed naked and in homoerotic picture for calenders, the sale of which benefit children with severe handicaps.
One of the greatest boxers of all time, perhaps the greatest, writes incredible poetry, stunning free-verse and cries over rainbows and butterflies in spring.
And one of the bravest men in American history tackled the would-be assassin of President Ford, despite his injuries, small stature and – what would later be diagnosed – as his suffering from the early weakness of Aids.
Yet, according to the classic conservative Christian agitprop, they are all effeminate.
I would turn the question around and ask, why does it matter? Why should a man conform to some sort of stereotypical standard of behavior? The purpose of which being to oppress him, keep women down and make life a living hell for gays and transgendered.
It’s a good question. Personally, I am too big and built too much like a brick outhouse to do anything but butch drag. And I do it very well.
Fundamentalist Christians are always shocked that I can shoot, ride a horse, fix a car…yet love being kissed by my husband.
Good question, really.
Are heterosexual men so threatened? Is that why they have to impose their will upon the rest of us?



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Glenda the good witch

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:46 am


As Clinton would say, I did not have sex with that man. I have not had sexual intercourse since the Iraq War started in May of 2003. Why do I hear on radio and TV that I am pregnant. If i am it was the GYN exam on DEC 3.
All of this makes me feel like a cow or a horse for breeding purposes only. How is all of this making me a more loving and happy person?
I was happier as Forrest Gump. I feel like Job, whom God forsaketh.
I don’t know what is happening anymore. Just kill me and get it over with.



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Glenda the good witch

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:50 am


So now, not only are we throwing out that I am a black woman, but that I am transgender????
This is not funny.



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Reverend Claudia

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:59 am


I understand the passion some people feel about this issue, but IMHO, if any “pastor” or “minister” speaks of killing or injuring ANY person, no matter what their crime, he or she should not call themselves a “Christian.” Jesus advocated doing no evil to anyone and that message is too often lost in religious services and religious speak in these days. It’s time for it to return to church and the world.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 6:24 am


For a Pastor to take hatred is not only wrong but is a sin.Pastors are messengers of God,i am not convinced for a Pastor in the pulpit to have hatred in his heart.maybe he was just setting examples for the
people to understand what his preaching for that particular day and aimed to be taken in by his flock to turn it their spiritual bread to learn and gain wisdom by setting examples,that is my comment.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 4, 2009 at 8:08 am


churchmouse,
You started with a reasonable argument related to free speech and how hate crimes legislation infringes upon it.
You have devolved from there.
Hoping for Evangelicals to coexist peacefully with their neighbors seems a long way off.



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Tim Smithpeters

posted May 4, 2009 at 8:20 am


My Lord’s word says that we are to win these kind of people to Christ and not cause any kind of harm to them. No Christian, paster
or preacher sould incite or incourage violent action against anyone.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 8:50 am


This article is the political correct version of this legislation. I personnally have never been in a church where a pastor has ever said to physically hurt anyone, however, I did see a pastor on TV speak of how white people were satan and America was getting what it was due. Anyone remember Jerimiah Wright?? I feel very sorry for the “church” in America. The Bible says that sin is sin and the only way to overcome this is to believe in Jesus Christ and ask him to come into your heart. If you have accepted Jesus Christ as your savior then you will understand that God hates the sin, but loves the sinner. Christians will not be judging mankind, God will. But, we are not to accept the sinner, just the sinner. Every church in America, that professes belief in Jesus Christ should be teaching the words of the Bible, without edit. To do otherwise is to create their own kind of sin. God will not be mocked, nor will He see what we in America are doing today as just being nice church people. Do ya think he likes the way we kill babies! The ones HE knew before they were born, and knit them in their mother’s womb!! How will we defend that position when we stand before the Lord and give an account!!



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 4, 2009 at 9:51 am


however, I did see a pastor on TV speak of how white people were satan and America was getting what it was due.
You mean these guys? :
JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I’ll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way — all of them who have tried to secularize America — I point the finger in their face and say “you helped this happen.”
PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we’re responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system..



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 9:54 am


We already have laws on the book,and we just need to enforce than. A crime is a crime thats already determine by the Laws of our country.Our major problem in our country we have too many laws that not being enforced.



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Shonna

posted May 4, 2009 at 10:41 am


I feel this law is agianst freedom of speech. In the church I attend we read what is said in the Bible so are they suggesting we change that? God speaks of homosexuality as a sin as well as murder and adultry. He did say to go kill them or hurt them he just says they are sinners that he loves and wants them to repent.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 4, 2009 at 10:49 am


@hoser,
The point is the others are arguing that homosexuality is compatible with being a Christian. For the sake of argument I will grant that all these other practices were practiced in those particular instances. BUT YET, no where in the entire Bible Old or New Testament is homosexuality ever condoned in any situation.
@Your name: bye the way, at least take the responsibility and claim your comments,
If we follow your logic then calling one to repent from any sexual sin is being bigoted. To say adultery is wrong is being bigoted, or incest, or rape for that matter. You cannot isolate just the one sexual act, homosexuality, and claim that only those who engage in it cannot refrain from doing so. Then the man or woman who cheats on their spouse cannot but do, then the pedophile cannot but do it. I think we are all morally accountable for our behavior, sexual or not, and it is more consistent than your position that only homosexuality is a protected type of sexual sin.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 11:36 am


Your name from 8:50am today,
“I personnally have never been in a church where a pastor has ever said to physically hurt anyone”
Lucky you. The rest of us vividly remember Jimmy Swaggart and what he said. Look it up!
“however, I did see a pastor on TV speak of how white people were satan and America was getting what it was due.”
Although you speak of Jeremiah Wright, others might read this and remember Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Tony Perkins, James Dobson, Anita Bryant, et al.
“The Bible says that sin is sin”
Why do so many people forget so quickly that in America, a land that ‘promises’ freedom of (and, hopefully, FROM) religion, it doesn’t matter WHAT the Bible says. Nor the Q’uran, the Book of Tao, the Book of Kells, the Torah nor any other ‘religious’ text. You go to your church and we’ll go to ous, thanks very much anyway.



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Husband

posted May 4, 2009 at 11:48 am


Shonna,
“In the church I attend we read what is said in the Bible so are they suggesting we change that?”
Well, I’m not suggesing you “change” it; I’m suggesting that your church only selectively reads (or pays attention to) “what is said in he Bible”.
Does your Church deny communion to the disabled? The Bible sez you should.
Do you put your disobedient children to death? Ditto.
Do you eat shrimp or lobster? Both are “an abomination” unto the Lord, per the Bible.
Etc.
How ‘charitable’ of you to compare loving, committed relationships to both murder and adultery, but you seem to have forgotten that both adulterers and murders are still free to marry, so long as it’s betterosexually.
Try again, but DO BETTER.
Meanwhile, the rest of us are free to go to different churches than yours (or not at all). Why shoud your religious tenets trump those of others?



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 11:51 am


Blue Collar Tod,
Thank you ever so much for comparing my monogamous, faithful and true 24 year relationship – the last four legally married in my country with pedophilia, adultery, incest and rape.
The more time I spend on sites with conservative American Christians the clearer it becomes to me that you have not the slightest interest in anything but torturing people you hate and oppressing gays, women and the transgendered.
It’s truly horrible to listen to the filth your write.
Where, please, tell me where, specifically, Jesus spoke one word against my loving marriage or compared it to pedophilia, incest, rape and adultery?
I mean, specifically, and no, you don’t get to use your made up versions of the Bible, I want it in the Vulgate, original Martin Luther or King James Version.
Well, I’d accept Koine, too, if you could manage. Greek is very hard for me and I am quite slow in it – the Latin, German and real English I can manage quite well.
Honestly, you hateful, spiteful people are beyond any reasoning or even willingness to acknowledge that you are interpreting the Bible to suit your own needs.



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Husband

posted May 4, 2009 at 12:04 pm


blue collar Tod,
“The point is the others are arguing that homosexuality is compatible with being a Christian.”
It is.
(Not that “being a Christian” has – nor should have – anything to do with the creation of seculat laws governing all citizens.)
“For the sake of argument I will grant that all these other practices were practiced in those particular instances. BUT YET, no where in the entire Bible Old or New Testament is homosexuality ever condoned in any situation.”
Well, onr could start with David’s love for Jonathan – “surpassing the love of women”, apparently.
“If we follow your logic then calling one to repent from any sexual sin is being bigoted.”
The difference (which you fail to acknowledge) is that not all religions agree that consenting homosexual acts between adults IS “sin”. Explain how I can or should “repent” from loving my (legal) husband?
“To say adultery is wrong is being bigoted, or incest, or rape for that matter.”
Again, you fail to take into account that 1.) adultery is the breaking of a covenant, 2.) incest has the consanguinity factor, and 3.) rape does not involve consent.
Try using an analogy that is, well, analogous.
“You cannot isolate just the one sexual act, homosexuality”
Homosexuality is not an “act”. It is the innate condition of being attracted to people of one’s own gender. I am gay whether or not I act on it. And, believe me, I am going to act on it. I do not have the spiritual gift of celibacy. Most people – even you betterosexuals – don’t.
“and claim that only those who engage in it cannot refrain from doing so.”
No one (except, perhaps, the delusional ‘right’) is making that claim. I don’t see too may heterosexuals refraining from sex – even outside of marriage. You’d need to make a good, non-religious case as to why people shouldn’t have sex. Meanwhile, when the first person gets beaten up for having consensual, adult heterosexual sex, please feel free to give us a call.
“then the pedophile cannot but do it.”
You really don’t get this concept of consent, do you? Again with the ‘charitable’ comparisons to child rapists. How typically “christian” of you.
“I think we are all morally accountable for our behavior, sexual or not, and it is more consistent than your position that only homosexuality is a protected type of sexual sin.”
I am fully accountable for my behaviors. My orientation, however, is innate. BTW, since we are talking of hate crimes, you do understand (don’t you?) that religion is a “protected” status class – and it clearly IS a choice.
Howzabout YOU repent of your religion? Could you do that?



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 1:03 pm


Husband,
I admire you. My darlin’ tells me I am wasting my time here.
I don’t know. I just don’t know.
I am a Christian. I am a gay man. I am happily married to the love of my life – and we have been together for nearly one-quarter century.
We take care of our families, we are respected in our community and where we live in Europe nobody cares that we are both me.
At. All.
What is with American Christians? Can you explain their hatred to me?
Is it really just control issues? The longer I hang around here, the more I feel that it is only about control and domination over anyone they can oppress.



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justamom

posted May 4, 2009 at 1:05 pm


Panthera, I just want to say how proud I am of you for taking care of your parents. I am also glad that you have found someone to spend the rest of your life with. As the mother of a gay son that is my greatest wish for him.



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Blue Collar Todd

posted May 4, 2009 at 1:39 pm


My prior attempt at a post did not go through, so here is another attmept:
@Panthera,
I cannot possibly fathom what you have experienced in the violent attacks against you. I truly hope they found those evil people, locked them up and threw away the key. I in no way condone any of that evil behavior. I tell people to preach the Gospel and call others to repent from sin, but anymore that is seen as an act of hatred and violence.
I think Jesus did possibly address that some are born with a disposition to same sex attraction, but He explains that they are to live a life of celibacy. Robert Gagnon has done extensive study of this issue:
Jesus and “born eunuchs”: no sex for them
In Matthew 19:10-12 Jesus compared “eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven” to “eunuchs who from their mother’s womb were born thus.” The former were people who did not get married, and thus abstained from sexual relations, out of a pragmatic missionary desire to further God’s kingdom (i.e., a single person would have greater freedom of movement and might be more willing to take risks than someone who had a family to worry about). The latter, the “born eunuchs,” were men who did not experience sexual desires for women, whether because they were asexual or, possibly, homosexual. Why does Jesus compare “eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven” with “born eunuchs”? Answer: Like the “born eunuchs,” the “eunuchs for the kingdom” are not having any sexual relations. If the “born eunuchs” included men attracted only to other men—a reasonable interpretation given the ancient evidence—then Jesus was presuming that men with exclusive homosexual attractions should not be having intercourse with other males. This is consistent with his argument from Genesis 1:27 and 2:24 earlier in the same passage (Matthew 19:4-9), where the only link between the two creation texts is the insistence that marriage—and thus all sexual unions since Jesus permitted sexual intercourse only in the context of marriage—be between the two sexes, male and female, man and woman. Those who cannot find sexual satisfaction in such relationships, Jesus believed, were not permitted other forms of sexual relationships, including same-sex sexual activity.

Jesus presupposes marital and sexual relations are between and man and a woman. If one has same sex attraction, then celibacy is the only option. It could be argued every heterosexual man is born with desires to sleep with as many women as possible, regardless of being married. And acting on that is wrong just as the lusts to do so is sin.
This is perfectly compatible and Paul affirms this in Romans:
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. (Romans 1:26-27)



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 2:45 pm


Your Name,
“the three loving, same sex relationships you mentioned from the Bible were strictly platonic”
I can’t speak for them all, but it is difficult to believe you when the Jonathan and David passage describes them embracing, stripping naked and kissing one another until one of them ‘exceeded’ (which some Biblical scholars translate as ‘had an orgasm’).
Be that as it may, “what the Bible says” is irrelevant to a secular society and its laws.
Nor does “what the Bible says” give you license to bash God’s gay children.



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Husband

posted May 4, 2009 at 2:52 pm


Panthera,
We could be twins. I have been legally married to my husband for more than 5 years, and we celebrate or25th anniversary as a couple next April.
As for your comment, “What is with American Christians? Can you explain their hatred to me?”
I wish I could. Trouble is, they don’t even see their conduct as hateful. They spout the “love the sinner, hate the sin” line while paying it not the slightest bit of attention. It’s just words coming out of their mouths without any thought attached to it. How else could comparing our relationships to incest, child-molestation, rape, beastiality, necrophilia, etc. be interpreted except as hateful. Yet still they do not see it. I suppose if we were to compare their heterosexual marriages to “marrying a pig”, they wouldn’t see that as very ‘loving’, but most of us are far to polite to do so to begin with.
“Is it really just control issues? The longer I hang around here, the more I feel that it is only about control and domination over anyone they can oppress.”
I’m pretty sure that you have it correct here. Not sure why anyone who would claimthe name of Christ would even want the ‘riht’ to bash gay people.



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Husband

posted May 4, 2009 at 3:03 pm


Blue collar Tod,
The last passage you cited is irrelevant. It speaks of heterosexuals who abandoned what was natural for them (heterosexuality) – and turned to fleshly pleasures with others of the same sex (the ‘unnatural – for heterosexuals), and out of lust at that. That is not the kind of relationships being discussed here. It is the equivalent of being on ‘the down low’. We are discussing consenting loving relationships, not horny str8 guys gettin’ a little on the side.
And, though you type sympathetic words to Panthera regarding the thugs who assaulted him, merely typing words that say you “in no way condone any of that evil behavior” rings hollow, since you continue to bash him yourself, calling his relationship and marriage indecent and perverted.
Get this one thing thru your head – those words are not loving in any way. They are a lie about another human being. Aka false witness – an actual sin.
P.S. You’re an abysmal Biblical scholar, imnho.



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Husband

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:09 pm


Was there ever such a verbose churchmouse who ended up saying not much of worth at all? Here goes…
“No you don’t have to believe what I believe, you never did.”
Thank you. I don’t.
“You obviously feel that I have no right to stop gays or lesbians from getting married.”
Correct. You don’t.
“Do you also think groups should be able to get married?”
Name me one other group of people who is not allowed to marry. Let’s see now. Blacks? Yep, they can. Hispanics? Ditto. The disabled? They can too. Asians? Certainly. Quakers? Yes. Catholics? Likewise. Now let’s look at the groups your side likes to compare us to: Can adulterers get married? Yes. Murderers? Them too. Thieves? Likewise. Liars? Yup. In fact, all “sinners” (we are all sinners, aren’t we?) can marry (except what is, apparently the ‘worst kind of sinner’ – the kweer). All, of course, only if it’s heterosexually. Can any of the above marry a child? Nope. Age of consent and all that. Can any of them marry a pig? Nope. Likewise, that pesky thing called consent. Can any of them marry a corpse? Nope. No consent.
“Or does your tolerance only go so far? Do you afford groups the same courtesy?”
What “other groups” are you talking about? If it’s the incestuous, they have no need of marriage since they already have kinship established. Or were you talking of polygamists? They, too, already have the right (privilege or freedom, actually) to marry someone (of the opposte sex, ‘naturally’). This has nothing to do with my tolerance – since there’s no other type of person (hint: groups do not marry, individuals do) who cannot already marry the person of their mutual choosing. It does have a lot to do with your evident lack of tolerance – of God’s gay and lesbian children – and not much else.
“There are some that say the Christian God does not look down on homosexuality, that there isn’t anything in the bible that says same sexes cant marry. I say back it up with scripture.”
You say this immediately after agreeing that we don’t all have to believe wat you believe. Asking me to subsequently “back it up with Scripture” is an absurd non-sequitur. Understand this, churchmouse: In a land with freedom of religion, we don’t have to back ANYTHING up with Scripture. It. Is. Irrelvant.
“You go to your own church. Curious what is their position on same sex marriage?”
Well, since I was married in my Church, it should be pretty obvious what their position is. Surely you cannot be that dense?
“Be healed? Am I sick?”
Yes. You have a disease called homophobia. And another one called christianism. Ignorance IS curable; stupidity is not.
“Todd and I happen to stand on the Word of God”
Well, parts of it. Selectively pulled out of context, from a preferred version’s certain translation and interpretation. But so what? America promises freedom of religion – you still fail to understand that.
“we believe that the Word is the Truth.”
And you are quite welcome to. Others believe differently.
“You reject the Word and think everyone should reject the Word because it is intolerant.”
I have never, ever once said that. I think people should, perhaps, reject the version you’ve selected. Certainly the verses you’ve selected. Or, they could just learn the lessons of the Bible, which are to love God and to love one another, and to leave the judging to God.
“I say if you believe in God and hate the Word take it up with Him.”
But I don’t “hate the Word.” You just made that up. Nor do I believe God is a “Him”.
“You can make up your own truth.”
You certianly don’t seem to have a problem doing that.
“I gave scripture and it is correct.”
Again missing the point that Scipture is irrelevant. This may come as a surprise to you, but many Americans follow a different Holy Book. And, they’re entitled to. As they are to follow NO Holy Book. The ‘correctness’ of each Holy Book is verified in itself. That is called cicular argument. As in, ‘My book is correct because it says it’s correct. (Or merely because I believe it to be correct.)’
You need a better argument.
“My arguments are Gods Words”
Again, so what? You can evade/avoid this question all you wish, but it is the very kernel of the discussion. America has freedom of religion. You want us all to follow yours, and we simply don’t. Tuff.
“I SAID THAT I BELIEVED THAT THERE WAS ONLY ONE SIN THAT KEEPS ONE FROM HEAVEN, DENIAL OF CHRIST.”
And you falsly believe that I deny Christ. I don’t.
“Sex outside marriage is sin even for the heterosexual.”
So let us know when the first heterosexual person who gets assaulted for having sex outside of marriage. Your take on “sin” is irrelevant to the hate crimes legislation in every way except the obvious fact that you wish the right to perpetuate hate crimes based entirely on your selective notion of “sin”. Do you get this? Or do I need to explain it one more time.
“If one is having sex outside marriage THEY ARE SINNING ACCORDING TO THE WORD.”
According to YOUR version of it, anyway. But I highly doubt you go around bashng, harassing or verbally taunting heterosexuals who have sex outside of marriage. You reserve your venom (and your venomous brand of ‘preaching’) solely for us kweerz.
“You are the one throwing sin out of the bible.”
No I’m not. I’m saying that what you in your faith interpret as “sin” is irrelevant to my legal marital status.
Go bash someone else for a change.
“God tells us what sin is in the Bible.”
And Frank . Baum told us what Oz is in “The Wizerd of Oz”. Big whup. Has nothing to do with the topic of hate crimes.
“GET THIS STRAIGHT RIGHT HERE. I never said homosexuals could not be forgiven. NEVER. Post where I said this or take it back.”
I have nothing to take back since I’ve never said anythig remotely like that. Is bearing false witness not a sin in your church?
“You say I should read a real Bible?”
Never said that, either. I did say it was irrelevant to secular law.
“I SAID SEX BETWEEN TWO OF THE SAME SEX IS SIN. I SAID SEX OUTSIDE MARRIAGE IS SIN. GOD SAYS SEX SHOULD BE BETWEEN THOSE WHO ARE MARRIED, WHICH IS ONE MAN AND ONE WOMAN.”
You can stop SHOUTING any time you want to. But we 1.) disagree on sin, 2.) disagree on who can be married, and 3.) still seem to disagree that “what God (or the Bible) says” is irrelevant to secular laws governing the rights, freedoms, liberties and responsibilities governing all citizens in a secular society.
“Which version of Christianity do you prefer?”
One that respects others’ rights not to follow it.
“Did God created people specifically to be alcoholics? Drug addicts? Adulterers?”
I’m not sure how this is relevant to the Hate Crimes Bill (other than the crime of the hate inherent in you bringing up alcoholism, drug addiction and adultery as if it had anything to do with God’s gay and lesbian children OR the topic). Be that as it may, all of those people are free to marry the person of their mutual choosing – so long as it’s to the opposite sex. So it hardly strengthens your case against God’s gay and lesbian childen.
“Christ said to love and to help and have a giving heart.”
It would be very nice to see you follow that teaching, churchmouse. There’s no evidence of a “giving heart” in what you’ve typed so far. It’s more (all) about condemnation. You’re pretty good at that.
“I am a Christian first.”
That dosn’t come across in what you type. Your self-righteousness does.
“I believe the Word of God which is the Bible.”
And you are entitled to. Others are free (in America) to believe otherwise. We/they are not obliged to believe what you believe. It really is that simple.
“I love people.”
Dear God, please spare us from churchmouse’s kind of “love”. Amen.
Your Leviticus exegesis is execrable, not to mention selective, and faulty. Not worth replying to, unless you don’t eat shrimp (likewise an “abomination” – do you throw that verse out? – and unless you believe we should put disobedient children to death, and deny communion to the disabled, and put the victims of incest to death.
The rest of your blather is simply that, repetitious, selective, condemnatory, unloving blather. We really don’t care what you think sin is, nor how sinful you feel I/we may be. It is irrelevant.
I believe differently than you do. Here endeth the lesson.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:19 pm


SuzanneWA, your love for your brother isevident, and for that, much thanks. Te world needs more of your kind.
But let me gently correct one misapprehension in your post.
You said, “he was “turned” by a gay interior designer”
That is not a possibility. Either he was or he was not attracted to people of the same sex. No one can “turn” another human being into something they are not. This interior disigner probably helped your brother understand, come to terms with, and accept his innate orientation. They may well have been lovers, but the attraction was always there.
Please continue to honor your brother by not perpetuating false stereotypes. Thanks.



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Allen Rabikowski

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:20 pm


Hello my friends!!!
That is my opinion: I love all people,I am not prejudice. I have lot of friends Gays, Lesbians, Black, Yellow, Jews.God bless them wear They are.
I AM CONCERVATIVE CHRISTIAN,AGAINST THE HOMOSEXSUAL MERRIGE,I AM PRO LIFE!!!!!!!
Sincerely,Allen Rabinkowski,Polish man-From Russia with live.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 4:33 pm


Allen,
Your gay “friends” must really love you if you’re against them and their love. I, for one, wouldn’t put up with such hypocrisy from a friend.



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 5:03 pm


Um, given the short fuse I have with conservative American Christians – a group which endorses torture, raping and beating and killing gays and transgendered and otherwise perpetuating the denial of our Constitutional rights….
This may come as a shock.
But here goes:
I live in Western Europe. Many of my students, however, are gays and lesbians who have found it necessary to leave Poland because the situation for gays there makes the worst American gay bashers look like good Christians.
Anytime a religious Pole is willing to even come close to saying he loves us, he is risking excommunication from his Catholic church, being beaten and ostracized.
Please, dear hearts – don’t confuse what is politically correct in the American context with what is truly an exceptional display of Christian charity in the Polish.
Poles grow up exposed to the worst possible lies and officially supported propaganda maintaining that we really are pedophiles, sex mad, diseased, etc.
And that is just what they say about gay men. Lesbians are even worse off, transgendered not even acknowledged.
I know this is hard to believe, but please – give him a chance. He’s not American. Think how much trouble I have dealing with your culture…and mine is quite similar to yours.
Before I get down off my soapbox, English is not my native tongue, I find it enormously hard to express my self succinctly in the language, much less clearly. English and my mother tongue, however, are kissing cousins. So to speak.



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Panthera

posted May 4, 2009 at 5:12 pm


Something just occurred to me while posting just above.
We have all noticed how the conservative Christians here begin by treating us as if we were not overly-bright children, running around committing sin because we haven’t found Christ.
When they discover that many of us have been in committed, loving relationships – some in monogamous marriages for years and are happy and normal and accepted…
They flip.
Totally explode.
It is a conflict which is irresolvable for them. On the one hand, their carefully nurtured world-view which demands that our sexual orientation truly puts on on the same moral level as pedophiles, rapists, adulterers and those who commit incest. On the other hand, we obviously are not that way…and there are lots of us here who are Christians.
Some, I think, will begin to wake up and re-examine their hatred. Some persist in attacking us with more and more vitriol.
It is a strange situation for them – for years and years now, they have been used to coming home, popping the top and, a six-pack or two later, whopping the heck out of us…without consequences but lots of praise from their fellow bigots.
Now, all of a sudden, these supposedly useless, cowardly pseudo-men have turned around and told them to lay off.
Wow. No wonder the emotions run so high.
What a horrible, horrible thing fundamentalist, intolerant religion is. I wonder if Jesus words or even those kind words of Paul are there in their pseudo-Bibles at all?



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LeeFree4

posted May 4, 2009 at 5:16 pm


The subject is the new Hate Crimes bill. Your sexual preferences are none of my business and mine are none of yours. My concern is the chipping away at the 1st Amendment and the founding premise that we are all equal under the law.
No member of any group of society is deserving of special treatment under the laws of our land. The constitutionally mandated equality of justice is perverted by special interest legislation that elevates the value of one person or group over the other. By our Constitution and its Amendments we are all EQUAL under the law and are all EQUAL in value as human beings. Any distortion of that &/or attempt to elevate one group above another in eyes of the law is contrary to the Constitution.
I hold the opinion that anyone who does not recognize or acknowledge the threat to our 1st Amendment rights is either blinded by so-called political correctness, is willing to sell our freedoms to the highest bidder, is part of the problem, or simply does not understand the preciousness and fragility of our freedoms. I do hope the majority fall into the latter category.
Each generation is responsible for passing our precious freedoms on to the next generation.



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The Dissident

posted May 4, 2009 at 6:36 pm


Leefree4, did you or did you not see the link I provided earlier about this? Your churches are in no danger of losing their ability to spew venom-until you actually start planning an unlawful act. Check it out, the law has already spoken on this issue.
Really the whole idea that Con Christians are railing against anti hate crime legislation is flooring- I think its high past time they reexamine their religion.



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Cmarie

posted May 4, 2009 at 8:49 pm


We all have free will to live as we please. God didn’t personally create anyone but Adam then Eve. We are products of PRO-CREATION, as Eve was given the womb to bear children and that ability passed to other women. God has stated in His Word things that are wrong and not up to His Holy Standards. He wants us to not do these things. He has already stated what is sin and no one has to condemn anyone. We may, and I do agree that God is right; but that isn’t what sends one to hell; we condemn ourselves by the things we do and fail to repent of such things. Unbelief is what sin Israel committed in the wilderness and we do the same. God doesn’t condone any sin to appease us. He hates it all.



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Your Name

posted May 4, 2009 at 8:55 pm


The Bible speeks for itself. The Truth and is backed by the digs around the region. But as the Bible states in the end there will be agreat falling away. Man (male and female) doing whats right in his own eyes. Thats why you yelled crusify Jesus because Jesus is the same past present future. So find a Bible go to back and out for yourself about end times ,right on time and written 2000 plus years ago. Truth cuts deep noboby wants to hear it Kings Presidents Rulers.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 6:58 am


Your Name,
The use of a spelling checker is not listed under “abominations” in Leviticus.
Really.
Some of us even use screen names when we post here.
“Your Name” doesn’t count.
The hypocrisy and the false witness of the conservative Christians who post here is beyond belief.
They talk incessantly about the “gay lifestyle”. A lie.
They insist that we are only a small part of 1% of the population. A lie.
They persist in denying all evidence presented by science and medicine that homosexuality is not a choice but an immutable characteristic on the same level as eye or skin color. Lies.
They twist the word of God around to suit their purposes, going so far as to rewrite the Bible, adding words such as “homosexual” where such are not to be found in the older texts.
Over 750,000 of us live in civil unions or marriages in the US. Of those, 20% have children living at home with them.
The Republican party has commented officially that they lost at least 4 million gay votes to the Democrats after Palin came on board.
The more time I spend here, the more convinced I become that there is nothing to be done with these lying hypocrites. We need to grasp the opportunity this political shift has presented and secure our rights!



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American Girl

posted May 5, 2009 at 10:35 am


Why the focus on Gay/Lesbians as if they are the only victims of hate crimes? I am a victim of Rev. Wright’s hate crimes committed in the pulpit when he damned my country. Will he be allowed to continue spewing hate against me as an American? Can I prosecute him now? What about the pedophile who believes it is his “natural right” to expose himself to children? If the child’s mother reacts to protect her child is she going to be accused of hate crimes against these people who see no wrong in what they are doing? That’s the real issue here. Forget gay/lesbians and realize that this law allows ANY person who sees no wrong in what they do to justify their actions and if anyone opposes them they can claim they are a “victim” of a “hate crime.” I am a victim of a hate crime committed by those who voted for this legislation.



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Your Name

posted May 5, 2009 at 10:39 am


I think most Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual are either wealthy people like actors with a lot of time on their hands, or people who have low self-esteem. I don’t buy that Kelly McGrillis was born gay – she is bitter at men. A lot of intellectual people are sexually experimental.
I don’t think people should be allowed hate speech of atheistic genocidal dictatorships either – which is where this country is headed. Today I am sporting a head injury because I dared to speak up for the genocides of the twentieth century and to talk about my feminist upbringing and defend the right to be born people with genetic handicaps – even cleft palates….
Even if the Bible were not true, there was a reason for Romans 1 in the era of Caligula and Nero…If I had the “genetic” tendency to run a military state, should I be encouraged? I think all this genetic crap is cultural, class, ethnic and maturity…
I also have the right to help lower income kids get in a business program without being intervened with….



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RC

posted May 5, 2009 at 11:08 am


What a frightening change has swept through this “modern” world we live in. Everything is “justifiable” if you want to twist things around to your taste. The morality most of us were taught as children has been replaced by an ever increasing lust for liberality and freedom from rules.
It is a fact that God is love, for it is written in the scriptures (if you believe what the Bible, the Word of God says). God loves the soul of man. God hates sin. “All unrigheousness is sin:” 1st John 5:17 “He that committeth sin is of the devil;” 1st John 3:8. “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin;” 1st John 3:9. This is not popular in our modern times but is from the Bible.
There has been controversy from the beginning between sin and righteousness or holiness. When Jesus came on this earth He did good to all and yet He taught against sin. He caused quite a stir among the “religious” people and the sinner because He taught the same to all and lived the example before them. After all of the good things he did in healing the sick, casting out devlis, opening blinded eyes, and many other miracles, He was crucified because He did not sway from righteousness, and to offer a sacrifice once and for all for sins. Not so people could continue in sin but so we all could live a life free from sin. You will find this throughout the New Testament (KJV).
When the disciples and apostles of Jesus continued His teachings, they too met great resistance and controversy. That did not stop them. They taught it and lived the life before the world. Had it not been for their bravery, even to the extent of being put to death, we would not have the Bible today.
All of this being said, everyone will do what they truly want to do, regardless of the teachings of the Bible or the laws of this country. If you want to sin, you will sin. if you want to live a righteous and morally decent life, you will. Why argue, we will all stand before the judgement seat of Christ to give account for the deeds we have done. It is easier every day to “justify” what we do because someone else says it is okay.
In closing: “Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.” Galations 6:7-8



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Lottchen

posted May 5, 2009 at 11:35 am


I believe that we are all a people who God loves, and therefore we ought to love one another.
However, it is sin that God abhors. The Bible clearly teaches that marriage is between one man and one woman. When the family the way God intended it to breaks down, a family, country and nation break. Look what is happening in America! If as a country we were to adhere to God’s Word in every area, we would be a “whole” nation.



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Your Name

posted May 5, 2009 at 11:51 am


This is in reference to Panthera about the comment that the word homosexual does not appear in the older versions of the bible. The fact is the bible, from it’s earliest writings, addresses this topic in a very difinitive way. The KJV in the book of Romans 1:26,27….”For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: 27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. In verses 29-32 it includes all unrighteousness including fornication. I believe that homosexuality was singled out because by it’s very nature it’s unatural. You may try to justify and make excuses for these ‘vile affections’ as much as you want. It is written plain and simple that all immoral acts are displeasing to GOD.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 12:40 pm


Your Name from May 5, 2009 11:51 AM
My love for my husband and his for me is not a “vile affliction”.
I don’t interpret every verse in the Bible literally, nor do you.
You only take seriously those verses which are to your advantage.
Now, the support of you fundamentalist Christians for torture, that is truly vile in the eyes of the Lord.
After 24 years of blessed companionship, the last four joined in holy union, I know what is truth and what is hateful lie.
The only vile thing here is the way you hateful conservative Christians act towards others. Instead of concentrating on the really tough aspects of being a Christian – remember those fruits of the Spirit? Guess not, only those verses from Paul which can be used against women, gays, transgendered and Negroes count for you, obviously.
Or Jesus’ comment I mentioned above? The one about that great big block of wood in your eye?
Look, I don’t want, don’t need and have no desire for your approval. I do, however, want you and your ilk to take your hateful version of Christianity and go back to your nasty little churches. Get out of our secular laws.
You have done quite enough damage – and since we now have proof of the torture you support, I can see no reason why anyone should pretend you have any moral standing at all.



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 1:03 pm


The polygamy argument a sham?
Since the beginning of TIME there have been group marriages of sorts especially in the OT. But for you who think that same sex marriage is ok….Why are they any more weird than gay marriages? Funny that gays want everyone to be tolerant about same sex marriage but then they stick it to polygamists that want to marry more than one woman. We are talking about tolerance and rights of people. Wow, how funny you fail to see their rights. You have no right to discriminate against them do you? And Christ came and changed the law. You would know that if you were knowledgeable about the Bible. What did Christ say about marriage? HE NEVER SAID ANYTHING ABOUT SAME SEX MARRIAGE. In fact in the bible not ONE example is given where God condones it. NOT ONE. Same sex, sexual relationships are talked about negatively,, they are sin.
Reverend Sarah said, “Jesus said, I am the Only way to the Father.”
He did not say He was ONE WAY. If you deny He is the Christ you DO NOT HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE. Christ talked about Hell more than He ever did about heaven. Why do you think that? Because He did not want anyone to suffer for all eternity in Hell. And that is where people will go if they do not accept Him as their personal Savior.
There is only one truth and its not Buddah, Allah or Muhammed. Your views are anti-Christ. Jesus was human but He was God in the flesh. You will be judged on believing this.
Panthera said, “You seek to deny me my love for my husband and his for me.
I tell you to mind your own business and keep your hatred to yourself or at least within your twisted church.”
Wow are you tolerant and you certainly do not show love. Christ said love your enemies those that persecute you. I seek to deny you nothing. I stand on the Word of God and He says sex outside marriage is sin. That means ANYONE that has sex outside the boundaries of marriage is sinning. Christ talked about marriage and He did not include same sexes to marry. As for minding my own business……what gives you the right to silence me? You see you just showed why the Hate Crimes Law would silence me and why it is dangerous. You proved me right. You want to deny people free speech if it is contrary to your position. So you say your Church speaks the truth because they are pro-gay marriage and mine doesn’t because it calls sex outside marriage sin? LOL
I asked you before to find me one example of just ONE COUPLE IN THE BIBLE THAT HAD A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP, THAT GOT MARRIED. Then explain to me why God forgot to include it in His Wordif He thought it was right.
You will not silence me. I would suggest you try to practice what you preach by being tolerant.
SJS said, “The moment the people allow politicians, politicians! to make laws regarding YOUR morality, not THEIRS, something is wrong. Is hate wrong? Usually. However, the problem is this bill affects Free Speech ! Wake up America, because if you need your government to tell you right from wrong you deserve what you will get.”
Laws always reflect morality. Everyone has a bias even the SCOTUS. Hate is always wrong and its against how Christ said we were to behave. You are right this law will criminalize Christianity and seek to give special groups more rights. A gays life will be more valuable and deserve more protection that a heterosexuals. Notice the hate in Pantheras post… they seek to SILENCE those that disagree. This law will trump the first amendment. Churches will be forced to marry them or else. And pastors that even mention anything negative about homosexual sex will be jailed. This same law passed in Canada and its already happened there. It happened in Sweden, they dont have free speech either.
The ACLU is an evil but powerful organization. They state in their policy guide that “”The ACLU believes that criminal and civil laws prohibiting or penalizing the practice of plural marriage violate constitutional protections for freedom of expression and association, freedom of religion, and privacy for personal relationships among consenting adults.”
Alan Sears and Craig Osten, The Homosexual Agenda: Exposing the Principal Threat to Religious Freedom Today (Nashville: Broadman and holman, 2003), 52.
So anyone that says this won’t happen is not being realistic. It will happen it’s just a matter of time. Churches that refuse to acknowledge this lifestyle will find that their tax-exempt status will be revoked and endless lawsuits will bankrupt churches all over the country……..all part of the gay agenda. Religious freedom will have to give way to Constitutional law. The law will state that all people have a constitutional right to marriage, in whatever gender arrangement they desire, the church will be breaking the law if they refuse to guarantee these rights.
The gay agenda banks on what these guys say.
“Almost any behavior begins to look normal if you are exposed to enough of it.” Marshall Kirk and Hunter Madsen, Gay Activists



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 1:19 pm


Panthera……I have the right to peacefully protest against what I believe is wrong. You have the right to do the same. You don’t however have the right to silence me. I have a right to wave my fist in the air as along as it does not hit you. The Hate Crimes would make it illegal for me to raise my hand. What don’t you get?
Panthera said, “Here in Europe, we have have gay rugby players who play something very like American football, but without all the sissy-padding and helmets. Many of them have now posed naked and in homoerotic picture for calenders, the sale of which benefit children with severe handicaps.”
How sweet. Make fun of our football. You certainly hate America and Americans don’t you? So let me get this straight……erotic pics of men benefit children? I wont even go there with that comment.
“Are heterosexual men so threatened? Is that why they have to impose their will upon the rest of us?’
They shouldn’t be threatened gays are people they are human beings. No one should hurt or harm someone just because they are different than they are, not for any reason. But nobody is imposing anything. You want to impose. You want what has been the norm in society to change. You want your lifestyle accepted as being as valid as any other lifestyle. Except you deny the polygamist, figure that one out. LOL
Tolerance is not enough for you. Ever watch Will and Grace? Jack McFarland is effeminate and he obviously does not hide it. The show is funny partly because he is this way. But his behavior is not the normal behavior of the male species sorry. Do you think the way they portray gays is wrong? Jack had more boyfriends than he had different jobs. I would be the first to say that anyone that acts like Jack should be respected. But nobody is imposing anything.
Claudia said, “I understand the passion some people feel about this issue, but IMHO, if any “pastor” or “minister” speaks of killing or injuring ANY person, no matter what their crime, he or she should not call themselves a “Christian.” Jesus advocated doing no evil to anyone and that message is too often lost in religious services and religious speak in these days. It’s time for it to return to church and the world.”
How many gays are killed every year because a Pastor preached out of the book of Leviticus? This was something that happened in the Old Testament. Things are different today, Jesus came. And you are right Christ hates the sin. He told the adulterous woman that she should stop sinning. He did not yell or scream or demean her. But He told her to STOP her immoral actions. He would do the same for anyone that was sinning. He came to tell the sinner that he should stop. He talked more about hell than love however.
Like “your name” said……I have never been in a Church and heard anyone let alone the pastor say to hurt anyone, especially a homosexual. Most preachers don’t touch the controversial subjects…..homosexuality, abortion etc. I think more should preach on it but today its more important to pastors that they cave into being politically correct than to speak out on sin. They do not want the tithes to stop, so they say nothing at all. Rick Warren and Joel Osteen are two guys that do this. Like Obama its above their pay grade.
Panthera said, “What is with American Christians?’
Well we are sinners, the same as you European Christians. Are you guys perfect? Are you saying that you are better than we are? To say anything like this would be sinful.
A Christian must stand on the scripture as the truth. You cant change what sin is. And you know what the bible says about sin.
I will ask one more time. Why did God exclude gay marriages and unions from the Word? Why did He not show (over the thousand span of years that the Bible was written) one example where gays married? Why? Show me something, anything where Christ said for two of the same sex to unite and become one.
You want a loop hole and there isn’t any. You want to pick and choose what YOU THINK IS RIGHT IN GODS EYES. Take the book of Lev. You say God says homosexuality is ok.
How do you pick and chose in Lev. what is sin and what isn’t?
Panthera said, “Um, given the short fuse I have with conservative American Christians – a group which endorses torture, raping and beating and killing gays and Tran gendered and otherwise perpetuating the denial of our Constitutional rights.…”
Short fuse? No you show hatred against us, that is what you do. We do not endorse torture and raping and killing gays.
YOU SHOW WHY THE HATE CRIMES IS DANGEROUS. I pray God softens your heart and shows you that what you are doing is sin. I think you know that however but you won’t admit it. People don’t like to be told what they are doing is wrong. The scriptures you seek to condone your actions against our Holy God are found no where in the Bible. You love your lifestyle more than you love the commandments of the God you say you love. That is sad. It is sad that you have hate in your heart.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 1:24 pm


Churchmouse,
Do at least calm down. This sentence, much as I attempt to parse it, is not logical:
“ONE COUPLE IN THE BIBLE THAT HAD A SEXUAL RELATIONSHIP, THAT GOT MARRIED.”
You might also stop screaming at us.
Writing in all capitals is screaming and considered very bad taste on the internet.
You do, however, raise two interesting questions.
One – no, actually, I don’t hate you. I just want you to stop beating us, torturing us, raping us, murdering us and imposing your personal religious interpretations upon our secular society.
Two, given that every week there is at least one gay or transgendered beaten, murdered, raped, tortured (frequently all three) and no fundamentalist Christians to whom this happens, I daresay your fears are bit misplaced.
You are the ones doing the torturing, raping, beating us and murdering us.
You are then ones taking away our rights.
But then, that is always the way of the hateful right wingers, no? You want to take both roles: The real monsters who attack people and the fake victims of supposed discrimination.
Do, please, try to recast that sentence.
And stop screaming.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 1:31 pm


Sorry, make that “all four”.



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 3:18 pm


“My love for my husband and his for me is not a “vile affliction”.
I don’t interpret every verse in the Bible literally, nor do you.
You only take seriously those verses which are to your advantage.’
That is not what God believes however.
You loving your friend is wonderful and a godly thing. It’s the sex part that is ungodly. It’s not about what you think, it’s about what God says about sex.
Curious as how you determine what is true and what is not true in the Bible. Is a Christian in your mind one that believes the parts you leave in the Word?
How about these scenarios?
A couple is having an affair. They love each other… should they toss the sin of adultery out of the bible to justify their actions? Is adultery wrong or right?
Jesus said, “I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but through Me.”
So do we toss what Jesus said out to justify other religions that say the contrary to what He said?
Adam and Eve really didn’t happen…Jesus really didn’t walk on water…Mary wasn’t a virgin……Noah’s ark, no way……The Ten Commandment? And there certainly were no miracles…..Jesus didnt really rise up from the dead………What do we keep and what gets tossed out?
You imply we toss out the stuff we don’t like. That is not being a Christian, that is not having faith in the Word.
The TRUTH is the entire WORD of God, not just the parts that you like. I do not hate you. I feel sorry for you that you don’t have faith in the Word of God, that you live against what He commands for your life.
“Look, I don’t want, don’t need and have no desire for your approval. I do, however, want you and your ilk to take your hateful version of Christianity and go back to your nasty little churches. Get out of our secular laws.’
Obviously you toss the love verses out of the Bible because you clearly do not follow them. Jesus said love……even love your enemy and be kind to them. You show no kindness on this forum, you show hatred. I don’t have need for your approval either. Gods approval is what I seek. The Word is not secular. It does not say all roads lead to heaven. You are more interested in living the way YOU WANT TO LIVE, than how God commands you to live. I do not hate anyone, but by gosh I am not going to rape the Word of God and what He calls sin. And He calls the sin of sex outside marriage an abomination against Him. AND THT APPLIES TO HETEROSEXUALS AS WELL. I go to a church that recognizes that we all sin and fall short, that Christ can forgive if only we repent and ask. Its not my version……I don’t seek to change one word of it. I believe it is the actual Word of God, that it is without error. I have faith that Gods rules and laws for me are what I need and how I should live.
I however am going no where and will continue to stand on the Word whether you like it or not.
Lottchen you are so right. “The Bible clearly teaches that marriage is between one man and one woman. When the family the way God intended it to breaks down, a family, country and nation break.”



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James Gilmore

posted May 5, 2009 at 4:15 pm


I seek to deny you nothing.
Except the right to marry and the 1,000+ legal privileges that come along with it. And the right to live in peace without the threat of violence for his/her sexual orientation. And the right to be treated equally at all levels of society. Aside from all those things, I suppose, we could say that you aren’t trying to deny him/her anything.
I stand on the Word of God and He says sex outside marriage is sin. That means ANYONE that has sex outside the boundaries of marriage is sinning. Christ talked about marriage and He did not include same sexes to marry.
Putting aside your tortured and rather narrow interpretation of the Word of God, which you of course see as only confirming your prejudice and hate (much like the segregationists saw it in the mid-20th century and the slavery advocates saw it in the mid-19th century – and yes, for the record, I am comparing you to those oppressors, because that is what you are), I’d like you to tell me one thing: Where in the United States Constitution is the input of the Bible sought?
As for minding my own business……what gives you the right to silence me? You see you just showed why the Hate Crimes Law would silence me and why it is dangerous.
Oh noes! Someone on the internet is asking you to mind your own business! You’re being silenced! Help, help, you’re being repressed. How awful it must be for you that a person on the internet asking you to please shut up about other people’s lives is somehow silencing you. How persecuted you are for your faith. You’re just like the Christians who were thrown to the lions in ancient Rome, just like them.
You proved me right. You want to deny people free speech if it is contrary to your position.
Again–we have hate crime laws covering crimes against African-Americans. Have the KKK and Neo-Nazis been denied free speech?
So you say your Church speaks the truth because they are pro-gay marriage and mine doesn’t because it calls sex outside marriage sin? LOL
Yes. Any church that preaches hate is not preaching the truth. Any church that preaches anything less than 100% acceptance for LGBT individuals at all levels and in all sectors of society is preaching falsehood. I will say it openly and I will say it proudly. I will not apologize or bury it in weasel words or contingencies. Any church that preaches anything less than 100% acceptance is sinning, and needs to repent of its sin of hate and change its attitudes.



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Randal Joslyn

posted May 5, 2009 at 4:20 pm


Boo to you. I believe that this will silence Pastors and Christians from being able to share their beliefs. This surely isn’t a christian site, or not a very forward looking site. I see that you have given in to politically correctness. I’m not for any hatred but don’t try to silence me and my Christianity. If I can be thrown into jail for my beliefs, then we no longer live in a free society. I see it’s always alright to bash Christians, but not so with any other religion or people. Why is it politically right to single us out? Why is it OK to change the fabric this nation was built on to be politically correct on these devisive issues? Read your Bible, especially Revelation, and you will understand, but you don’t have to follow this path of destruction. Randy J



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 4:27 pm


“Writing in all capitals is screaming and considered very bad taste on the internet.”
I don’t mean it to be screaming and since I can’t highlight or bold my phrases how else do I emphasize what I want to say in bolder terms.
“One – no, actually, I don’t hate you. I just want you to stop beating us, torturing us, raping us, murdering us and imposing your personal religious interpretations upon our secular society.”
Well you have a funny way of showing it. You make fun of Christians who actually believe the Bible and you mock the United States. You don’t show love lets put it that way. And you want me silenced. The thing is your problem is with God not me. I stand on the Word. God says homosexual sex is sin. He says heterosexual sex outside marriage is sin. What don’t you get? I don’t have a book of the Bible named after me. I am not a prophet. I am just one of the sheep in His flock. I am a sheep that follows the Word, all of it, particularly what Jesus said. He says what you are doing is wrong. I don’t say this with hatred in my heart but it is the truth. He is the one you should be fearful of not me. He will judge. Quit playing the “woe is me” card. I never raped anyone, never hurt a fly. I speak what I believe to be the truth and you bash me for it. But you cant defend your position, not with scripture at least.
And what do you have against the United States? We might be a morally sick nation but we are a generous one at that. While there are those that hate, it certainly is dwarfed by the generous spirit of most Americans. 9-11 was a horrific day in our history. People were confused, hurt, bitter, angry and outraged at the events they did not understand. At the time we had over three million Arabs living in the United States. But only a tiny fraction of Muslims reported incidents of harrassment out of over 286 million people. We show tolerance in the United States.
Here are hate crime stats against gays.
2007: 1,460 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:
59.2 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual bias.
24.8 percent were reported as anti-homosexual bias.
12.6 percent were prompted by an anti-female homosexual bias.
1.8 percent were the result of an anti-heterosexual bias.
1.6 percent were classified as anti-bisexual bias.
http://gaylife.about.com/od/hatecrimes/a/statistics.htm
1,460 hate crimes out of a population of over 280 million people, is that a lot? These are offenses and not necessarily murders. We have more pregnant women getting killed by their husbands than this.
Oh we are a hateful people aren’t we.
Here’s one for ya. “In 2006, Americans gave $295 billion to charity, up 4.2 percent from the previous year.”
http://20millionminutes.com/2009/03/16/a-generous-nation/#comment-74157
http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/Articles/America,%20the%20Great%20Santa.htm
No country compares to ours and I am proud of that fact.
http://www.american.com/archive/2008/march-april-magazine-contents/a-nation-of-givers



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 4:45 pm


” Any church that preaches hate is not preaching the truth.”
And any church that caves into the truth of Gods Word isnt a Christian church.
A church can accept them as sinners because they are sinning according to God but to tell them what they are doing is acceptable is wrong and its contrary to what God says.
These people have a problem with obedience. They do not want to be told what they are doing is wrong. No church is going to tell an adulterer they are not sinning. No church is going to tell a theif that its ok to steal.



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James Gilmore

posted May 5, 2009 at 4:59 pm


And any church that caves into the truth of Gods Word isnt a Christian church.
Tell me: Does your church require that women’s heads be covered at all times? Does it ban women from speaking in church? If not, then it’s “caving into the truth of God’s word” as you interpret it.
A church can accept them as sinners because they are sinning according to God but to tell them what they are doing is acceptable is wrong and its contrary to what God says.
These people have a problem with obedience.
“These people”? How insulting and dismissive.
They do not want to be told what they are doing is wrong. No church is going to tell an adulterer they are not sinning. No church is going to tell a theif that its ok to steal.
Adultery and stealing have two parties: a victimizer (the cheater, the thief) and a victimized (the cheated-on, the stolen from). That’s why they’re sins – because they violate the second great commandment, to love your neighbor as yourself. Please tell me which individual is victimized by same-sex love in a monogamous relationship such that it violates this principle. (Come to think of it, please tell me which of the two great commandments is violated by homosexuality.)
(Incidentally, hate also has a victimizer and a victimized. In the name of Jesus I call on you to repent of your hate, change your attitude, and accept your brothers and sisters as equals.)



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churchmouse

posted May 5, 2009 at 5:02 pm


Here are hate crime stats against gays in the United States.
2007: 1,460 hate crime offenses based on sexual-orientation bias were reported by law enforcement agencies. Of these offenses:
59.2 percent were classified as anti-male homosexual bias.
24.8 percent were reported as anti-homosexual bias.
12.6 percent were prompted by an anti-female homosexual bias.
1.8 percent were the result of an anti-heterosexual bias.
1.6 percent were classified as anti-bisexual bias.
http://gaylife.about.com/od/hatecrimes/a/statistics.htm
1,460 hate crimes out of a population of over 280 million people, is that a lot? These are offenses and not necessarily murders. We have more pregnant women getting killed by their husbands than this.
Any act of violence is horrific, any act even against heterosexuals. I do not condone violence on any level, but I do believe in free speech.
You would have us believe that acts of violence are happening way more than what they really are.
“Someone on the internet is asking you to mind your own business! You’re being silenced! Help, help, you’re being repressed. How awful it must be for you that a person on the internet asking you to please shut up about other people’s lives is somehow silencing you. How persecuted you are for your faith. You’re just like the Christians who were thrown to the lions in ancient Rome, just like them.”
No you can tell by the tone of his posts where his heart is. And he wants me to be SILENCED. What right does he have to ask me even on the internet to shut up? We are in a discussion on a blog….a lot of people are discussing this issue. What would you say if I had asked him to shut up? Pleaze.
And even on the internet certain posts are silenced and the playing field is not even.



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James Gilmore

posted May 5, 2009 at 5:06 pm


Boo to you. I believe that this will silence Pastors and Christians from being able to share their beliefs.
Again– we have hate crime laws already on the books for race-related crimes. Have the KKK and Neo-Nazis been silenced or prevented from sharing their beliefs? Hardly.
This surely isn’t a christian site, or not a very forward looking site. I see that you have given in to politically correctness. I’m not for any hatred but don’t try to silence me and my Christianity.
If you believe in anything less than 100% equality at all levels and in all sectors of society for LGBT individuals, you are for hate.
If I can be thrown into jail for my beliefs, then we no longer live in a free society.
Again– have known racists been thrown into jail for their beliefs? If not, what makes you think the same hate-crime laws would cause you to be thrown into jail for yours?
I see it’s always alright to bash Christians, but not so with any other religion or people. Why is it politically right to single us out?
If this thread proves nothing else, it’s that it’s apparently still alright to bash all sorts of people. (Oh, and religion is one category that currently enjoys protection under hate-crime laws.)
Why is it OK to change the fabric this nation was built on to be politically correct on these devisive issues?
“The fabric this nation was built on” is being anti-gay? Funny that it doesn’t pop up as a major theme in what the founders of this country said. “We started this nation in order to be free from the British, to set up a democratic form of government, and to hate gay people.”



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James Gilmore

posted May 5, 2009 at 5:15 pm


1,460 hate crimes out of a population of over 280 million people, is that a lot?
It’s 1,460 too many. It’s 1,460 LGBT individuals – and I’ll note that these are reported statistics only, the actual number (like rape statistics) is likely much higher – who wouldn’t have suffered violence if this country didn’t have a hate problem. It’s 1,460 people whose suffering can be tied to the rhetoric of so-called “Christians” who need to repent immediately of the violence done in their name.
These are offenses and not necessarily murders. We have more pregnant women getting killed by their husbands than this.
And this somehow makes it better? Yes, our country has a misogyny and patriarchy problem – another situation in which conservative “Christianity” is part of the problem, not the solution – and a pandemic of domestic violence. It also has a problem with anti-gay violence and attitudes. These things are related in that (a) the people who commit them are more often than not men, speaking to the massive problems with masculinity in our society, and (b) they’re linked to this nation’s pandemic of hate, which is often supported implicitly, if not explicitly, by “Christians.”
Will you continue to be part of the problem – or join us in becoming part of the solution?
No you can tell by the tone of his posts where his heart is. And he wants me to be SILENCED.
Of course, “you can tell by the tone.” For the record, I don’t want you to be silenced. I want you to repent of your hatred and be extremely loud in confronting the purveyors of the sin of hatred in our country. The solution to being called out on your hate isn’t to cry “persecution” – it’s to repent of your hate.
What right does he have to ask me even on the internet to shut up?
What right do you have to question the validity of his relationship? If you were telling me that my personal life is somehow your business, I’d ask you to shut up too. What people do in the privacy of their homes is none of your business.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 5, 2009 at 5:18 pm


Panthera,
“We have all noticed how the conservative Christians here begin by treating us as if we were not overly-bright children, running around committing sin because we haven’t found Christ.”
I woke up from a trance one day about 3-4 years ago, in which I found myself in the state you describe. I called myself an Evangelical. No more.
I now call it “mind-bending”. When you think something must be because someone (or something) told you so. “No more mind-bending” I told one of my friends who respects divergent opinions. From now on what presents itself in the natural world, “is”. One Christian in a book called that the “Idol of Nature”.
But what you describe is the norm for what we know as Evangelicals. It is to see the world through a specific lens which they call “spiritual”.
The really weird thing that comes of this view is a fierce tribalism: it is the first and foremost item on an Evangelical’s mind: “are you saved?”. As thought Heidi Klum were God: “you are either in, or you are out. Sorry, you are out”.
It even breeds a very warped view of scripture, where from Matthew 25, all of a sudden “the least of these” must be referring to, what?, Evangelicals? That Matthew 5 “that those who mourn will be comforted” in now limited to only people that look like “us” (well, them).
When they say they love somebody, what they really mean is “I Agape you because God told me I have to”. But like God, it won’t last long, ’cause He is gonna burn you in hell (and then I won’t have to love you any longer. Sweet!). Besides, I don’t actually like you. But I love you, um, really.
It is a very tribal way of looking at relationships. Not all Evangelicals are this evil and vile. But I was, and I know where they are coming from. I was like them, I was them, I know them. I know how they speak, how they think, and how plastic and artificial their relationships are. Life is about manipulation: you’re lost, they are saved. There is one imperative: save you. And if you refuse, then they are _commanded_ to shake the dust off their feet and leave a small pile of poo on your doorstep.
25 years of Evangelical dominance are coming to an end. The consumer based mega-churches will likely crumble. People are already noticing the sheer irrelevance of large buildings that serve no one.
Yes, it really is that bizarre.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 5:41 pm


Thank you, James. Your quiet analysis was much needed.
Yes, that is the precise difference between my marriage – one of mutual love and support (and great sex) and the bad things Paul warned against when men run off to spend their family’s food money on temple prostitutes and massages with happy endings.
There was a strong and very bad belief among many in the ancient world that women weren’t really worth much. Paul, motivated by the Holy Spirit, was rising above his misogyny to praise the role of men and women together…which is natural for heterosexuals. But not for gays.
Loving, platonic friendships towards the opposite sex, yes. Sex, romantic love?
No.
Churchmouse,I do have a question for you. Why should we, as Christians, not find even one physical attack, far more one motivated out of hatred and done by conservative Christians alarming?
What would Jesus do?
Matthew 25:40 has a clue:
And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 6:52 pm


Nat,
Thanks for that perspective.
Scary.
Interesting that we both thought of the same verse from Matthew at the same time…



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Your Name

posted May 5, 2009 at 7:16 pm


Understanding the will of God is the most important thing we can do as believers.First we should hate the sin and not the sinners,the bible says that we are all like filty rags in the sight of God. Second telling the truth about a subject matter is what God himself called us to do. I personally deal with people who are homosexual and treat them with respect, but they KNOW that I believe in the word of GOD and that his word is that which governs me.Christains need not be made ashame for preaching the gospel for Paul writes that this is the power of GOD unto whom the world would be saved.Preach this Gospel but preach it with love.Last tell all that his Judgement is for ever.



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What is this?

posted May 5, 2009 at 7:35 pm


It’s interesting that we live in a country where only certain people can speak out favorably for a lifestyle that they choose and if others dont agree with them they are demonized just for saying they don’t agree. While on the other hand people who even vaguely believe in God or anything remotely righteous are deemed as mentally ill.But,I guess Do what thou will is the order of the Day in America now.Pretty soon every vile thing under the sun will be the right thing to do. How soon we forget history, every Great Nation fell from within not so from without it is amazing how society never learns from the failures of other past great nations.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 7:35 pm


OK, Churchmouse and Blue Collar Ted, you both get major points for knowing how to enter a real name into the “your name” box.
I think, yet again, we have all succeeded in bringing the level of discourse and evidence of our Christian love for our brothers and sisters to a new low here.
I don’t much care for Paul, nor for the way conservative American Christians worship him instead of Jesus.
I am, however, beginning to appreciate the difficulties he faced in trying to forge a working cohesive unit out of Christians who all insisted that they, and only they, knew God’s will.
Until the day arrives when the conservative Christians are willing to accept that gays can also be Christian, I see little reason to believe we will make any progress at all.
The arrogance and intolerance of those who pretend they are doing God’s will here is precisely the reason Jesus warned us again and again against passing judgment. And no, that little verse on the righteous passing righteous judgment doesn’t mean conservative Christians get to pass judgment anyway.



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Panthera

posted May 5, 2009 at 7:39 pm


Whatisthis wrote:
It’s interesting that we live in a country where only certain people can speak out favorably for a lifestyle that they choose and if others dont agree with them they are demonized just for saying they don’t agree.
end quote
Well, yes, Whatisthis, it is true – you conservative Christians do try to impose your beliefs on the rest of us. It wouldn’t be right, even if you were the majority.
Or even if you truly did know God’s will.
But, heh – I can forgive you. Just, please, stop doing it.
OK?



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I am a true believer

posted May 5, 2009 at 7:46 pm


I just would like to say to all the christian haters; you have people
who just profess christianity with their mouth and then you have true believers that believe with their heart. I would just like to say a true child of God should not hate and I repeat hate anyone. As christians we should not pick one group of people like homosexuals to say that they hate this sin, What about the liars, fornicators, adulterers, murders, and the list goes on and on. The bible teaches me that to God loves all people but sin is a reproach to any people. So we as americans need to pray for all people including myself because we all have sinned and come short of Gods goodness. So with that being said we must love everyone.



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churchmouse

posted May 6, 2009 at 12:33 am


“I don’t much care for Paul, nor for the way conservative American Christians worship him instead of Jesus.”
Of course you don’t because he spoke out against sex sin. I do not worship Paul, Peter, Moses, Noah, Adam etc…..I worship Christ and that is it.
“I am a true believer” you are right we should love. But with that we should still stand on the word of God as the basis of all Truth. I never said I hated homosexuals and I also mentioned many other people that sinned, meincluded. But you see here that those who think God condones same sex unions, its not enough. They call us haters because we stand on the Word. It is unfair to tell someone that what they are doing is right when by all Gods standards it is wrong. Christians may judge other Christians on their words and actions. Of course there are other sins. I even said that I believe only one sin keeps you from heaven and that is denying Christ. So homosexuality does not keep them from salvation if they ask Christ into their life. But that is not enough for them.
We as believers can make righteous judgement.



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Colleen Prabhu

posted May 6, 2009 at 12:57 am


To read later.



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:50 am


Hi Gerard,
And I am always glad to read your posts.
Yes, you are quite right – there are two humans involved after the quickening. Which is why I draw the line at 12 weeks, as does most of Europe.
And yes, I do tend to apply the precise same rod to measure conservative Christians as they do to me. It just can not come from God when one attacks, beats, murders, rapes and tortures gays and transgendered while at the same time insisting that unborn life is of greater value than that of the mother.
But, yes, what to do, what to do? In my country, we do our best (through education, freely available contraception and instilling a since of self-worth) to prevent unwanted pregnancy. And when a woman does become pregnant and doesn’t want the child, her doctor must meet with her some time prior to the abortion and present her with alternatives which are actually available, to her – and in her village.
Yes, there are some women who play the system. I would rather see a few jerks get away with stealing tax payers’ money, tho’, than go back to the bad old trend toward ever more abortions.
And that, I fear, is where, once again, the difference between our cultures arises. Here, we have fewer abortions, less divorce and more personal freedom.
America has more abortions, more children born into poverty, enormously higher divorce (especially among heterosexual partners. We, astonishingly, run at least 10% behind the heterosexual marriages across Europe in the divorce rates – and that includes some countries where we have had the right to marry or engage in civil union for years.
But I digress.
The main thing is, how do we get this awful abortion rate down? I should think by now it is clear that the current approach to the matter from conservative Christians is not working.
Strange this world, no? My mother managed two children in a span of 30 years of trying. Two. Both of us healthy. But the difficulties she faced to manage even two – my folks wanted six, heaven only knows why – and got two. I am very glad your mother was able to bring you to term. Therapeutic abortions back then were advised when the woman’s life was at considerable risk.
Wow.
Good for her.
You know, we need to get people together on this who are able to compromise. That is going to be very hard, indeed. But I see no other way –



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:56 am


Whoops! This abysmal software. If it didn’t make life just as hard on the conservative Christians, I’d think a fundamentalist had programmed it.
Churchmouse said:
We as believers can make righteous judgement.
end quote
No, Churchmouse, no.
Thank you, tho’, for providing us with one of the clearest examples of why it is so dangerous to interpret the Bible to suit one’s own selfish needs.
Let’s look at the error in your interpretation and the error in your application separately.
First, it is typical of you conservative Christians to misquote or cherry-pick the Bible. Here’s the full passage upon which you base your false aggregation of God’s sole authority:
John 7:24
Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.
And here is what Jesus had to say on the topic:
Matthew Chapter 7:1-5
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again. Mk. 4.24
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother’s eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
What part of my Lord saying: “Judge not, that ye be not judged.” isn’t clear to you? I realize the syntax is a bit more complex than your usual made-up book uses, but still – the meaning is rather clear and indisputable.
But then, I forget. Jesus’ word counts as nothing for you American conservative Christians when you can find another Biblical source upon which to base your hatred.
Now, let’s look at your reasoning. Do you see the error?
I am a believer. You are a believer. A nine year old child who has repented his sins and accepted forgiveness through God’s grace, offered through Jesus’ sacrifice is also a believer.
And yet, the three of us are quite unlikely to pass the same judgment on a whole range of issues. To me, my monogamous, faithful, true marriage and partnership of 24 years (and we were married in a Christian church, by the by, thus a marriage in the Christian sense of the word) is valuable and good.
To you, it is the same as incest, pedophilia, adultery, rape and all the other vile things you so hatefully compare our love to.
To that nine-year old, the only thing about my marriage which is worth passing judgment on is whether he has to dance with this mom (icky) or gets to sneak some of the champagne. And yet, by your own words – all three of us are entitled to pass righteous judgment.
Now a question. Why is it that you conservative American Christians have decided to draw a line in the sand here? Why don’t you get upset about the entire (and rather long) list of things which Jesus directly forbade us?
I have even seen twisted justifications from your ilk around here saying that his anger at the money-changers in the temple had nothing to do with making a worldly profit from one’s faith, but was a basis for attacking us.
Surely there are other pressing matters to be addressed by Christians.
And yet, you have chosen to focus all your energies on the one topic which does not and can not affect you.
Rather convenient, no? And rather a reason to read verse 5 above. Even take it seriously, although it was only said by that long-haired Jewish Rabi, good ole’ what’s-his-name.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 6, 2009 at 12:32 pm


How can you claim to love and not like?



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Your Name

posted May 6, 2009 at 2:04 pm


3 things.
1) All crimes are motivated by some form of hate. If someone who is rich is beaten & robbed because the are rich, that is certainly bias related. Why should certain groups be elevated so that a crime against them draws more punishment?
2) Jesus never said, “Your sins are forgiven. Go and keep on sinning.”
3) Love is an action, a verb. To use the excuse that you can’t choose who you love is simply a cop out and an admission of a weakness of character. Love is a decision that each of us makes each day. Relationships deteriorate every day because too many people rely on the most unreliable, falliable, and deceptive source around…their feelings.



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 2:21 pm


“Your Name”,
The reason Christians are protected against hate crimes is not to elevate us above others, but because the very nature of our “difference” means that an attack on one of us for no other reason than our Christian belief is rightly seen by the government as an attempt to intimidate all Christians.
It’s that simple.



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James Gilmore

posted May 6, 2009 at 2:42 pm


Why should certain groups be elevated so that a crime against them draws more punishment?
Because certain groups tend to be the victims of crimes simply because they’re members of that group. LGBT individuals are subject to additional violence simply because of this nation’s epidemic of hate against them; therefore, additional protections are needed.
Jesus never said, “Your sins are forgiven. Go and keep on sinning.”
And that’s relevant to a legal question exactly how? Where in our nation’s laws is the input of Jesus sought?
(Moreover, as has been amply demonstrated in this thread, there’s considerable ambivalence as to whether homosexuality is sin.)
To use the excuse that you can’t choose who you love is simply a cop out and an admission of a weakness of character.
Please tell me when you chose to be straight.
Relationships deteriorate every day because too many people rely on the most unreliable, falliable, and deceptive source around…their feelings.
Yeah, we shouldn’t expect people to have feelings for the people they’re in relationships with. In fact, let’s just take people’s own opinions about who they want to love out of the equation entirely, and let parents arrange marriages like the Bible says.
That’s what “traditional” marriage really is… a system whereby women are treated as chattel, their virginity and labor sold by their fathers to their husbands. Those defending “traditional” marriage are defending slavery. If you don’t like the slavery, it’s easy enough to admit that society’s construction of marriage has indeed changed in the past couple thousand years… but then you’ll have to admit the oh-so-uncomfortable possibility that other sexual mores have changed as well.



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Your Name

posted May 6, 2009 at 2:47 pm


“God didn’t personally create anyone but Adam then Eve. We are products of PRO-CREATION, as Eve was given the womb to bear children and that ability passed to other women.”
My, what a strange ‘theology’.
First, she ‘forgets’ about (aka, ignores) poor Lillith, “Adam’s” FIRST ‘wife’.
Then she says God only created two (and only two) people. (Some of us believe God created us all. Ain’t freedom of religion a grand thing?)
Then she says “Eve’s” ability to bear children was passed on to other women. Whence came these “other women”? “Adam” and “Eve” only had 2 sons (and one of them killed the other), and no daughters at all.
Could some good “Christian” please tell us whence came these alleged “other women”? Is a puzzlement.



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churchmouse

posted May 6, 2009 at 2:53 pm


“Yes, you are quite right – there are two humans involved after the quickening. Which is why I draw the line at 12 weeks, as does most of Europe.”
But we are dealing with death, so can you be sure if you draw that line at 12 weeks that you are 100% sure you are not in fact killing still killing something?
Did you know what the heart starts beating at around 20 days, that there are measurable brain waves at around a month. Does Europe get that fact? Did you know at the middle of the first trimester the baby looks like this…..
http://shelly.miguelito.org/archives/11%20week%20fetus.JPG
At week eleven this is what is happening in the womb.
Your baby’s organ systems are now functioning and he has a skeleton, nerves and blood circulation. Your baby’s tiny feet are fully formed and shaped and could stand on an adult’s fingernail. The most critical part of baby’s development is now over, and the remainder of the pregnancy is about rapid growth, organ maturation and getting ready for delivery. Your baby’s head is about 1/2 of his body length. The baby’s eyelids are fused now and the irises are developing. Your baby will begin to get baby teeth, fingernails, toenails and hair follicles this week, too.
AND YOU STILL THINK THIS CHILD SHOULD BE KILLED. Amazing how compassionate and loving you are. You have the gall to tell me I am hateful and horrible because I want to deny gays the right to marry. And look what you condone. You want to deny a living human being, LIFE.
Here are stats about abortion in eastern Europe.
“One in three pregnancies end in abortion. (In America its 1 in 5).….. Globally, there were 31 abortions for every 100 livebirths in 2003, while in Eastern Europe there were more abortions than live births (105 abortions for every 100 livebirths) – more than double the level of the next highest world region – Eastern Asia (51 abortions for every 100 livebirths). Despite this, Eastern Europe also saw the biggest decrease in abortion rates in the 1995-2003 period, down some 50%. The authors attribute this decline to increases in use of modern contraception methods. The authors say: “Although abortion rates and ratios in the countries of the former Soviet Union have fallen substantially in recent years, the rates in Eastern Europe remain higher than any other region. This finding suggests the need for continued improvements in and expansion of contraceptive service provision. The widespread preference for small families in this region indicates a high level of need for effective contraception.”
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-10/l-oif101007.php
And look at the chart on this site. Europe is higher than America. You even allow abortions to be performed up until 24 weeks. My little niece fifteen years ago was born at 22 ½ weeks. She weighed one pound. And today she is in college and doing fine.
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_IAW.html
Anyone knows that if you want abortion statistics you go to Guttmacher Institute, they are the most credible. So your facts were way, way off, so sorry to disappoint you.



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Your Name

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:10 pm


Randal Joslyn exhorts people to “Read your Bible”.
Tell us, Randal, why The Bible? For many citizens, The Bible is not their holy book. Can’t Jewish citizens read their Torah? Can’t Muslim citizens read their Q’uran? Can’t Taoist citizens read their Book of Tao? What about Buddhist citizens? What about Hindu citizens? Or Shintoists? What about the Book of Kells? What of Raelians? Or – GASP! HORRORS! – atheist citizens?
OR don’t you believe in freedom of religion?
Because in a land that promises freedom of religion to ALL its citiznes, what The Bible says doesn’t make one iota of
a difference to secular laws.
Don’t “Christians” study civics anymore?
For that matter, why would “Christians” even want the ‘right’ (?) to perpetuate hate crimes against gay fellow citizens? You claim you will lose your right to free speech, but sure don’t seem to give a d@mn about anyone else’s rights.



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Your Name

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:13 pm


churchmouse,
“I don’t mean it to be screaming and since I can’t highlight or bold my phrases how else do I emphasize what I want to say in bolder terms.”
Learn to. We did.



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:18 pm


“Your Name”
I suppose political correctness mandates the pronoun “she” instead of the more traditional “he”.
Still, I would like to point out that with very few exceptions, all the hateful, spiteful people around here are male. Putatively heterosexual, men.
Not all Christians are horrible monsters, by the by. My husband and I know lots of other gay Christians and many, many European Christians who are good, decent people. Even in America, there are many to be found who are good people, and Christian – many gay.
Please don’t confuse all of us with the horrible people you see here.
It’s a tough situation. They have taken my religion hostage, and are giving the rest of us a very bad name.
Lilith, I often think, had the gift of second-sight. She saw what was coming down the line, tried to warn Adam, he wouldn’t listen and she is probably fine out of the mess. Conservative American Christians tend, as a group, to have no knowledge beyond that which their bone-headed churches tell them, so most think Eve was Adam’s first mate.
Poor Eve. I tend to think of her as a nice but rather naive young woman who married into a seriously disfunctional family.



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:29 pm


Churchmouse,
This interface makes it very hard to even post, much less add emphasis.
Here are a few tricks I’ve learned. I hope others will add to them.
If you want to make a text bold, then you have to find the key on your keyboard which makes this symbol:
That gives you bold.
Usually, it depends on the mood this interface is in.
To turn bold off, you type the same thing again right after the word or passage (no space before or after) and just put this symbol:
/
right in front of the
b
Instead of
b
you can use
i
for italics
There are other “tags”, but those two will get you started.
OK, folks, share, please.
Oh, and I know it’s hard to believe sometimes, but my browser does spell check. Just, it gets my native tongue and English confused sometimes and that causes problems.
Hope that helped.



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:31 pm


Well, lovely.
OK, the symbol I meant looks like this (I hope):



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Panthera

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:33 pm


Ok, that’s not working.
Hmm, just use the pointy bracket key which points to the left to start the tag and the one (which this stupid interface does show) to point the other way.
I do not know much HTML code, we could use one of you brilliant folks to help us here.



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James Gilmore

posted May 6, 2009 at 3:46 pm


To make a text bold:
<b>bold</b>
To make a text italic:
<i>italic</i>



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churchmouse

posted May 7, 2009 at 11:54 am


Well it won’t do it on my computer so I guess I am going to have to figure something out. I don’t mean to shout, but put emphasis on what I want to say. And I will admit lately I have wanted to put emphasis on a lot of what I say.
Panthera said, “Not all Christians are horrible monsters, by the by. My husband and I know lots of other gay Christians and many, many European Christians who are good, decent people.”
So the good Christians you like go against what scripture says, and the bad ones stand on the Word?
Did you look at any of the websites I gave on abortion and world statistics, I noticed you said nothing about it.
You shocked or do you just want to avoid the topic now.
It seems no liberal here wants to touch the questions I asked obout abortion.



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Panthera

posted May 7, 2009 at 12:45 pm


Churchmouse,
The main problem between us, I think, is that which plagues many Christian churches and people in the US right now.
Your side demands that your and only your interpretation of the Bible is correct.
We don’t agree with you on that. We think that the Bible is man’s attempt at setting down God’s word. And there are flaws in this.
Faith is at the basis of my belief in God. You demand written certainty, I am content to accept God’s love on faith.
Really, there is no way your side and mine can ever agree and that is why there are so many different Christian churches and denominations.
Look, just today the SBC announced that they had come to the conclusion that torture is bad, waterboarding is torture and no Christian may torture.
Does that mean the Southern Baptist Conference has suddenly gone over to my side?
And yet many of your closest allies use the Bible to defend and even support torture.
So, yes – there are conflicts among even you, the most conservative of the Christians.
What you and I do need to agree on is that civil marriage is not the provenance of the Christian church.
You can’t keep attacking gays and demanding the government refuse to extend us basic human rights. Not on the level of federal laws.
In your own church, yes.
In the public sphere, no.
Now, the aren’t easy to use, and once again we have James Gilmore to thank for providing us with them. See if you can’t find the arrow brackets he used and try again. Just label the post “test”, I am sure folks here will understand.
Capitals are a no-no. If nothing else works for you, try just setting your comments off with an *before and after*. Back in the 1970’s that meant emphasis and most folks still get it.
As for abortion. Well, you know, I fear we are very much going to disagree here, too.
I firmly believe that a woman must decide for herself what is best for her body. I don’t like to see abortions, but I just can not impose my will upon her. I have no standing.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 7, 2009 at 1:55 pm


“So, yes – there are conflicts among even you, the most conservative of the Christians.”
For real…
Does God predestine human events, or merely “foreknow” them?
Is baptism properly performed by immersion or sprinkling?
Is speaking in tongues an authentic gift? If so, then does God still reveal Himself today? What if that revelation is contrary to Canon?
What constitutes Canon? Why? Because a council declared Canon?
God once “utterly destroyed” the Amalekites, the Hittites, the ____-ites. Does that mean God approves of genocide?
Does God still consider Israel His chosen people?
Should this influence foreign policy? (yeah, right)
Does God allow for divorce? Is there an “exception clause”?
The list goes on, utterly, verily, forever. Keep peering and pondering into thy navel for enlightenment. Interpret the Greek, the Hebrew, the Aramaic, the culture, the scholars…
I’ll give you a very simple answer to all these: “Who gives a flying ___.”
That is your answer. Simple, concise, and more relevant than any other answer.



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tuluquaq

posted May 7, 2009 at 3:31 pm


I have read, with great interest, the comments posted for this blog. Hate Crimes and free speech have been debated for a very long time in many cultures.
I also find the use of the Bible on both sides of the debate a bit confusing, for many reasons. First, it is difficult to understand how a book, even a sacred text, can be taken so literally, especially when everyone does understand the author of the book is not God, but a whole variety of people, from many cultures over much time. Each author reflecting the time and place of his or her culture, each author reflecting the compassion and bigotry of their own culture. Inspired by faith, certainly, often politically motivated, it is a record of people trying with words to describe an encounter with the divine or with an idea of the divine.
The Bible, both old and new, are filled with acts of terror and acts of love, acts of genocide and acts of salvation. Everyone who chooses too can find arguments, testaments, examples, words, to support their own position, and many will choose not to seek within this book, words that support another argument, but they are there. I often think it is a shame that the Bible is a closed book, I think new testaments could be written by new generations of people and their struggles and inspired encounters with the divine presence.
Personally, I don’t think the Bible, much less God, has anything to do with the secular notion hate. Hate is by its own definition non religious, it is an emotion. As people we choose to act on it or not, sometimes our faith or religious teaching tells us not to, and sometimes it tells us just the opposite. In all cases it is up to the individual or group to decide to act or not. History teaches that with hate, laws, as good as they are, as strong as they might be, is not the deciding factor, personal choice is.
One thing is sure, hate can be used to motivate whole societies to acts of violence that boggle the mind. It can and has been used by governments to incite people to war, it does not have much use in peace. Nor does it have any use in the creation of a society that respects freedom. It is wrong to murder or beat someone up, this is something most of us agree on, yet hate tells some of us it is OK as long as it is a person who is _____, because that person is an affront to God or God’s law. At various times in history Christians, Jews, Muslims, to name a few, have been told by their religious leaders that certain people would be excluded from God’s love because they were the wrong color, the wrong faith, the wrong gender, or doing something that was outside the teachings of that religion. We, for the most part, have come to see the terrible consequences of that kind of hate and changed our ways within our faiths and our faiths changed. It seems that, at least with people who are gay, we need to have another look at how we act within our faiths. All the arguments in these posts that allow the hate, by any name, are the same arguments used in the past to justify religious acts of violence. It is sad really, that we have the argument at all.



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churchouse

posted May 8, 2009 at 12:39 am


“The main problem between us, I think, is that which plagues many Christian churches and people in the US right now. Your side demands that your and only your interpretation of the Bible is correct. We don’t agree with you on that. We think that the Bible is man’s attempt at setting down God’s word. And there are flaws in this.”
You constantly refer to the United States, why? Are we the only country in the world? Or just the only country you seem to hate?
My side? What do you mean my side? And who is we? Gays, Europeans?
How much of the bible do you believe? Some of it, the majority of it, or all of it? And if you reject the bible because you think its been corrupted, that is it not the actual Word of God then….how do you make a case for Christ? Where do you get your information about God, creation, Christ, prophecy? What other source are you reading that you think is more credible?
What books do you toss out? What scriptures? Why are you a Christian?
You said this, “Faith is at the basis of my belief in God. You demand written certainty, I am content to accept God’s love on faith.”
You say faith is the basis of your belief but belief in what? You just rejected the Word as we know as the Bible. So who or what do you put your faith in? If you took the bible away, what would you have? What would you know about God? I am not sure you have accepted Christ as your Savior……but if you toss the Word out, then how would we have known we needed a Savior? How would we have known about the Ten Commandments, that Mary was a virgin…..etc.
How do you determine what is right and wrong in your life? What do you use as your moral compass?
Why do you bring torture into this? This is about the reliability of the Bible as the Word of God. I am against torture…….so what is your point?
“What you and I do need to agree on is that civil marriage is not the provenance of the Christian church.”
This is what I think you do not get about me. I am a Christian first and foremost. I know what it means to be a Christian by reading the Bible and to listen to Christs Words. I base all my decisions on the Word, it is my moral compass. For me its not about what I think, its about what He says is right and wrong. So truth for me is what God says and no one else. That means if Christ says adultery is a sin……it’s a sin…etc. That means if Christ says He is the only way, then He is the Only Way. That means if Christ says that all sex outside marriage is sin, then it is sin. This is about obedience and loving Christ enough to give it all to Him.
“All scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.” 2 Timothy 3:16
This says all scripture, not some.
“Faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.” Romans 10:17
If you did not have the Bible, where else would you hear the Words of Christ? Many people reject God, and they rely on their own set of morals values, their own compass….they don’t want to be judged by God or anyone else, in fact they say its wrong to judge anyone … then they turn around and judge others, but they don’t see that.
Christianity believes and teaches that the Bible alone is the revealed Word of God, I have faith that, that is true.
“You can’t keep attacking gays and demanding the government refuse to extend us basic human rights. Not on the level of federal laws.”
So you would agree that any group that wanted to get married should be able to?
“I am not attacking anyone I am standing on what I believe is Gods Word and I put above mans law. I can’t be someone in the public square then someone else at home.’
“As for abortion. Well, you know, I fear we are very much going to disagree here, too.
I firmly believe that a woman must decide for herself what is best for her body. I don’t like to see abortions, but I just can not impose my will upon her. I have no standing.’
I think so. I was hoping we could at least agree on that one. As a Christian you believe God condones abortion then? Make your case for that one. If you don’t want to impose your will or beliefs on anyone then you also condone abortion until full term, right?
Tuluquaq said, “Personally, I don’t think the Bible, much less God, has anything to do with the secular notion hate. Hate is by its own definition non religious, it is an emotion. As people we choose to act on it or not, sometimes our faith or religious teaching tells us not to, and sometimes it tells us just the opposite. In all cases it is up to the individual or group to decide to act or not. History teaches that with hate, laws, as good as they are, as strong as they might be, is not the deciding factor, personal choice is.”
You said it is up to the individual or group to decide what is right……then what Hitler, Sadam, Pol Pot etc…. did might not have been so bad then. Maybe the KKK has a point to their hatred. Maybe infanticide isn’t bad. If there is no right or wrong, then what are we left with? You live a life without God, you play with fire, and in the end you have nothing that means anything. You’re alone, depressed over past mistakes and disappointments………and you reach a point of not being able to cope. Everything you were told by society backfired, and you have to deal with the consequences of your actions.
Play by mans rules and you lose, play by Gods and your never alone, He stands with you.
There is much to say about having a godly worldview and leading a moral life.
Even though America is no longer a moral place………we who choose to follow God can’t lose site of what and how He tells us to live.



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Panthera

posted May 8, 2009 at 4:23 am


Churchmouse,
I think I’ll keep it brief today.
1) I do not hate America. I love America. I am a firm adherent of the US Constitution.
2) I am not a native English speaker, I learned English as a small child.
3) I am living in Europe.
4) I am legally married in my country, which recognizes full rights for gays and transgendered.
5) My church recognizes and celebrates gay marriage and we were married in our church.
6) Of the developed Western Culture, only the US suffers from this pervasive attack on citizens’ freedoms by conservative Christians, thus, when I reference “conservative American Christians” I am doing so because the conservative Christians from other countries who post here used to get very upset with me and other liberal Christians for throwing them into the same nasty pool of septic water in which the conservative Christians in America so gladly swim.
7) My salvation is through the grace of Jesus who died for my sins and through whom I begged God for forgiveness for my sins. Fortunately, my soul is in God’s hands and is not dependent upon the perversions of your narrow-minded, hate-filled, mean-spirited, contemptuous sect.
8) Lind and the SBC are the very embodiment of the conservative American Christians. They have now, finally rejected torture, citing Scripture.
A large number of conservative American Christians (at least you aren’t one of them) cite the same Scripture to support torture.
I thought that would prove sufficient to show that even among those of your literalistic mind-set, there is no universal interpretation of the Bible.
9) My faith in God, by definition, is not delimited by human agency.
10) We have already seen that the Bible (especially that useless mis-translation you have frequently cited here) is full of contradictions and errors. Why on earth should I close my eyes to this?
11) I grant you this: Yes, I read Latin, German, English and can wade my way through a few other languages on an academic level. You are limited to English. That doesn’t mean you have to remain chained to this abominable text you have been using.
Try reading other English language Bibles. Who told you that yours is directly from God? Nonsense.
12) I have no standing to tell a woman what to do with her body. It is that simple. I don’t want women to have abortions. I also didn’t want Old Yeller to die in the book, I want the rain outside to stop before I leave my office for lunch…and that is precisely it: I want.
Women are not subject to my wants and desires. The most I can do is to invest money into providing adoption services for young women in “trouble.” This I do. I daresay it is more effective than running around telling women they are monsters when what they are is people facing tough choices and stuck with the consequences of two people’s decisions. At best. At worst, they are the victims of incest and rape.
I think it is best we face facts: Your world view is built around telling everyone else how they are going to live their life. When they, for some abstruse reason disagree, you then pronounce them non-Christian, deny their salvation and say they are immoral. At best.
My worldview is based on trying to take care of my parents, make my husband happy, teach my students well, the animals healthy and human rights a reality not a fading dream. If people note in my actions that I am a Christian and conclude that Christians manifest their love in positive, caring ways, perhaps that will change a mind or two about us.#
Thanks to people like you, most of my students regard Christianity as a religion based on torturing people, attacking innocent countries, reducing women to slaves, and denying gays and transgendered their human rights.
How on earth do the rest of us Christians argue against that? In the US, that is the face of Christianity for non-Christians.
For far too long, non-hateful Christians kept our mouths shut. Now, finally, we are speaking out.
Good old what’s-his-name had a word or two to say about that. Being a mere Jewish Rabi and only the Son of God – nobody really important like Bible-thumping Christians, he called it what it was: Injustice.



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Panthera

posted May 8, 2009 at 7:07 am


Churchmouse,
I think, if we are to ever reach a truce in the culture wars, two things will have to happen.
1) Your side is going to have to stop claiming Christianity for yourselves, alone. Your tactics of calling those of us who don’t see things just you way on all possible issues un-saved, non-Christians is not an argument which will produce anything but to make the rest of us ever more determined to keep your side out of power for as long as possible. After the last eight years under your jackboots, the rest of us Christians have had it. You don’t notice it because you stick to conservative echo-chambers.
2) This mixture of secular politics and Christianity was opposed by Christ. Remember Him? The long haired, sandal-wearing Jewish Rabi who happened to be the Son of God? I know he was only a Jew, not a gen-u-whine Christian like Paul and all your Bible-Thumping, TV-Whore evangelists, but still – for me his word counts.



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Panthera

posted May 8, 2009 at 7:11 am


Churchmouse,
I think, if we are to ever reach a truce in the culture wars, two things will have to happen.
1) Your side is going to have to stop claiming Christianity for yourselves, alone. Your tactics of calling those of us who don’t see things just your way on all possible issues “un-saved, non-Christians” is not an argument which will produce anything but to make the rest of us ever more determined to keep your side out of power for as long as possible. After the last eight years, the rest of us Christians have had it. You don’t notice it because you stick to conservative echo-chambers.
2) This mixture of secular politics and Christianity was opposed by Christ. Remember Him? The long haired, sandal-wearing Jewish Rabi who happened to be the Son of God? I know he was only a Jew, not a gen-u-whine Christian like Paul and all your Bible-Thumping, TV- evangelists, but still – for me his word counts.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 8, 2009 at 2:56 pm


churchmouse,
Strictly, from the Bible:
Moses write in Deut 24:
If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, and if after she leaves his house she becomes the wife of another man, and her second husband dislikes her and writes her a certificate of divorce, gives it to her and sends her from his house, or if he dies, then her first husband, who divorced her, is not allowed to marry her again after she has been defiled. That would be detestable in the eyes of the LORD. Do not bring sin upon the land the LORD your God is giving you as an inheritance.
We know what Jesus said about this:
Some Pharisees came and tested him by asking, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife?”
“What did Moses command you?” he replied.
They said, “Moses permitted a man to write a certificate of divorce and send her away.”
It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied. “But at the beginning of creation God ‘made them male and female.’ ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two, but one. 9Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate.”
How do you know that it was not because of the hardness of YOUR heart – yours and the Evangelical/Political complex that opposes gay marriage – that Paul wrote the 2 very short verses he wrote concerning homosexuality.



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tuluquaq

posted May 9, 2009 at 4:48 pm


Hello Churchmouse,
I just want to clarify something you quoted. I did not mean that ‘it is up to’ the individual or group, I meant that despite laws, church teachings, or beliefs, people will choose to act out their hate or not. 9/11 being a prime example or large example of that, as is gay bashing, either physical or verbal, however cloaked in ‘God’s word’, it is violence driven by hate or fear. If that hate or fear is put forward as some kind of gospel or word of God, I question that particular God and minister of that God.
If we are all God’s children, created in God’s image, as the Bible and other sacred texts say, and those texts are the literal word of God, then it is all of us, young or old, male, female, gay or straight, black, white, brown, red. It is an unequivocal statement, not qualified by any if, and or but.
It was not too long ago that other ministers, used hateful language to express why people who are black should also be seen as outside God’s love or God’s family, and sanctioned violence to make their point. Good people stood up to that vision of God and God’s word and said no, not my God. For these people I am thankful, and I am thankful for those who stand up now.
Personally, I celebrate the enactment of Hate Laws. They are secular and are not governed by what faith we might each practice. If that makes a minister or priest, or pastor stop preaching hate, so much the better. You can state the principle belief’s of any faith without being hateful, so the threat of silencing a minister is not an issue. Anyone can say I do not agree with gay people, I believe they are sinning. That is vastly different from saying gay people are a threat that must be crushed or gay people should be cleansed of their sin by beating the devil out of them, or other more horrid statements I hear from preachers on the TV, over the internet, in the papers and on the radio. Hate is hate, no matter the cloak.



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Your Name

posted May 9, 2009 at 5:06 pm


Nat Ersoz, You quote the scriptures and then try to interpret them to suit yourself. You claim that Paul wrote two ‘very short’ verses concerning homosexuality, as if this discounts his intentions or the importance of the topic. The fact is you are opposing GOD’S word by embracing the unatural and immoral act of same sex unions. GOD in HIS infinite wisdom created man and woman and gave them the power of procreation and that’s the reason all 6 billion plus of us are here today. You think because there are not more scriptures, explicitly condemning the vile act of homosexuality and all forms of sexual immorality, including fornication and adultery that GOD isn’t concerned? it appears you search the scriptures with the intentions of justifying your warped and misguided interpretation and to critize and attack believers like myself and churchmouse. I applaud and admire churchmouse for embracing and advocating the word of GOD as the only authority on the subject of sexual immorality in it’s various forms. Keep standing firm in your faith churchmouse, we are witnessing the fulfillment of GOD’S word.
Nat Ersoz, you can try to diminish and interpret the scriptures to add credence to your views on homosexuality as much as you want. The fact is there is not a single scripture in the holy bible that states that GOD blessed or condoned same sex unions.



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Panthera

posted May 9, 2009 at 6:41 pm


Your Name,
Many of us here, especially those who are in long-term partnerships and marriages (such as Husband with his spouse and I with mine), are deeply offended by your casual assumption that your version of Christianity and your interpretation of the Bible is precisely in accordance with God’s will.
Here is a passage from Samuel:
1 Samuel 18
1And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2And Saul took him that day, and would let him go no more home to his father’s house.
3Then Jonathan and David made a covenant, because he loved him as his own soul.
4And Jonathan stripped himself of the robe that was upon him, and gave it to David, and his garments, even to his sword, and to his bow, and to his girdle.
There are two other same-sex love stories in the Bible, but that should serve to answer your question.
Now I have a question for you.
Because we are both Christians – me gay and married to my partner of over 24 years – you, well, not even quite sure of your own name, but never mind – we both know that the NT speaks quite strongly on several subjects. We also know that, apart from denying God, all sins are equally repellent in His eyes. So, if we pretend for a moment that homosexuality is a sin, do tell me:
How do you cope with women who ask questions in your church? Do you scream at them to shut up and go home to ask their husbands?
Oh, and a woman wearing gold or pearls or fine clothing…you do rip them off her and tell her she is a harlot, don’t you?
Now, about your slaves. Do they perform their duties properly? I hope so. As their master you are responsible for their adherence to discipline.
Finally, I trust you go after the divorced people in your church with the same passion as you attack my 24 year monogamous, faithful relationship. More, actually, seeing as how Jesus (remember Him? The long-haired Jewish Rabi, hung around with prostitutes and tax-collectors) declared divorce impossible. Hmm, you do tell those who have remarried that they are adulterers and their married spouses fornicators at best?
Please tell me you do all these things. Because, if you don’t, then you are cherry-picking one particular verse (which doesn’t even reference homosexual love but straight men paying male and female temple prostitutes for sex).
Where does God say you get to pick and chose which behaviors you don’t protest? And which you chose to let ride?
Your hypocrisy screams to heaven.
My, that reminds me of something else that Jewish guy, good old what’s-his-name said:
Matthew 7:5
Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother’s eye.
Of course, he was just a Jew and only the Son of God, nobody really important….



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Your Name

posted May 9, 2009 at 9:20 pm


Pantera, You pretend to embrace the scriptures only to misinterpret GOD’S word to justify your lifestyle. You quote the scriptures in reference to the friendship between David and Johnathan and try to embellish it by stating that their brotherly love for each other was a same-sex story. When David took Uriah’s wife Bathsheba, 2nd. Samuel 11:4 clearly states that he laid with her. The bible is implicit, there is no where in the scriptures that GOD condones a man laying with another man or a woman with a woman. You are trying very hard to justify your filthy lifestyle. In the bible when men commit the vile act of homosexuality it is clearly stated. I am sure you know this, but I’ll take the liberty to refreshen your memory. Romans 1:26,27 “For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections:for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.” It continues with all unrighteousness including adultery and fornication, only the act of homosexuality is described as unatural. David and Johnathan had a comradeship that they shared similar to soldiers and athletes.
As for divorce, Jesus addressed this in Matt. 5:31,32 “It hath been said , whoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement: but I say unto you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication……. you may finish reading the scripture, although I suspect you are familiar with it. I pray that GOD’s grace will find you and the man you are with.



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Lydia Shelley

posted May 10, 2009 at 12:02 am


It is my opinion that when Jesus stopped the men from stoning the adultress, he was thereby saying there would be no more death penalty for such behavior. As believers, when we engage in such behavior, we ask forgiveness through the blood our savior shed when he made himself a sacrifice for us all. Nevertheless, whatever the Bible says and means the world is not living under Biblical law, nor the law of any religion. At our final judgment we will each have to pay the price for unforgiven sins… lies… misdeeds.
The BIG question is whether this legislation will put those who preach from Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 would be held guilty just for his speech. However, if someone were living by Old Testament law, it is theoretically feasible that they might attack & kill gays just as the Taliban would.



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Lydia Shelley

posted May 10, 2009 at 12:08 am


Ugh. I didn’t proofread. The mis-written sentence should have said:
“The BIG question is whether this legislation will put those who preach from Leviticus 18:22 or 20:13 in jail for their speech.” (Does the first amendment apply, since it’s speech? Or will such talk become a hate crime… and if so how far are we from Orwellian “thought crimes”? We already have the doublespeak.



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Panthera

posted May 10, 2009 at 5:23 am


Lydia,
We already have an answer – the first amendment overrides any law “only” passed by congress and signed by the president.
Remember, please, crimes against people based on their race have been covered by hate crime legislation for some time now and we still have racists running all over the place, preaching their hatred. Over at crunchycon, they are encouraged.
You have hit on a deeply distressing issue within the Christian community, however.
Recent studies (I won’t repeat them, they are everywhere to be found around here on beliefnet) have shown a fundamental, polar split between American evangelicals and mainline American Christians – the evangelicals welcome torture by an overwhelming margin, the other American Chrsitians reject it by a majority.
When you consider that these conservative Christians justify torture as based on scripture and allowed in the Bible, then you begin to understand just why homosexuals and transgendered are now covered by the hate-crimes legislation.
Take a look at the arguments you see here – the conservatives who call us “vile”, our monogamous marriage a “lifestyle”, equate our love to pedophilia and incest. They say we are an abomination, forgetting often to insert the patent phrase “love the sinner, hate the sin” and telling us what is really in their hearts.
There is a deep, deep thread of fear interwoven with extreme right-wing politics running throughout the conservative Christian community in America. Many truly think everybody else is “out to get them”.
Considering the actual crimes and acts of violence we have seen come from the conservative Christian government which ruled the US the past eight years, it is hard to lend credence to the fear which is now driving so many to protest they are, once again, being oppressed.
Gays and transgendered, whether Christian or not, don’t want to attack anyone. We just want the conservative Christians to stop torturing, beating, raping and murdering us. To stop imposing their version of Christianity on our churches and on the secular institution of marriage.



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Panthera

posted May 10, 2009 at 5:32 am


Your Name of May 9, 2009 9:20 PM
So, your whole argument is, my faithful, true, monogamous and loving marriage with a man who has loved me and stood by me for over 24 years is wrong because your interpretation of the Bible says it’s wrong.
Hmm, I think I shall rewrite the the value of gravity on this planet to be 10.0ms². Much easier to work with. There! Henceforth, all mass/force relationships are so defined.
And that makes just as much sense as your nonsense.
What does not make sense is your denying the salvation of my husband and myself. Please stop doing that. You are usurping God’s laws unto yourself and that is very close indeed to the sin of denying God.
Oh, and, please: Get a name.
“Your Name” doesn’t count.
I promise, it won’t make you gay or even teach you how to spell and parse your logic nor yet cast your sentences properly.



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Husband

posted May 10, 2009 at 9:15 am


Panthera,
Please don’t waste any more bandwidth trying to discuss anything with “Your Name”.
Anyone who can post such hypocritical smarm as to wish you “I pray that GOD’s grace will find you and the man you are with.” after calling your relationship a “filthy lifestyle” isn’t worth the bother.
S/he’s simply an anonymous hatemonger who can’t/doesn’t/refuses to understand Scripture to the depth you have displayed here.
Ignore it.



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Cliff Snoates

posted May 10, 2009 at 9:24 am


Anyonwho diminishes a story in which two men strip, embrace and kiss one another (until one “exceeded” – which some Biblical scholars say means ‘had an orgasm’), in which theirs was a love “surassing the love of women”, down to just “brotherly love” is clearly delusional.



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Panthera

posted May 10, 2009 at 1:26 pm


Cliff,
That’s one heck of a kiss – wow!
I notice that those who most hate us are also the ones who seem to least care for women. Oh, they accept the man and woman thing because they have to – but the straight me I know who really, truly like women are also pretty cool about accepting gays.
Funny.
Especially when you consider that my marriage is based on love and mutual friendship, not sex alone.
And all these conservative Christians see is sex. Either they aren’t getting it, or they have – and just have never recovered from it. The Ted Haggard syndrome applies to a lot of them here, I think.
But really, we are talking about two men merging their souls into one and people pretend that is not love? Sheesh.
I love my best friend, but there’s no sexual interest. I love my animals and there really is no sexual interest. My husband hands me his T-shirt after a day of hard work on my parent’s place and I swoon.
Yeah, right it was just locker-room camaraderie. Somebody has been watching too many special,um, videos, methinks.



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Nat Ersoz

posted May 12, 2009 at 4:03 pm


Well, interesting discussion. I’ll have to say, going into this I was of the opinion that homosexuality was incompatible with Christianity and Judaism.
Not that I have a strong stake in either at this point. I’m re-writing my own personal religion – a Rationalist & Deist approach that is compatible with Jefferson, Franklin, Einstein, and Asimov (stretching it a little).
But it can be made to fit into Christian thought when you quit asking “what is your dogma?” and start asking “how do you act?”.
How do treat others?
What do you do that someone might say “that is good” without reverting to dogmatic “mind-bending”. After all, as has been pointed out, slavery, genocide, war crimes, jihad, lying, deception, cheating, stealing are all justified when interpreted “in light of scripture”. Screw that. Screw that once and for all. Period.
Here in this little micro-space of belief.net, the most consistent system of Christian/Judaism has been thought through and worked out by homosexuals and their sympathizers.
Good God.
And this, piece by piece, is helping me destroy my own destructive prejudices honed by years of Evangelical conformance.
Thank you.
PS – I can already hear the refrain “My ways are not your ways”. Spare me the superstitious appeal to irrational fear mongering.



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Panthera

posted May 12, 2009 at 4:37 pm


Nat Ersoz,
Goodness – every so often, someone says something here which makes me realize that actions have consequences.
And you just did.
I can’t promise to lighten up on the conservative Christians around here, my policy has always been: Why use a flyswatter when a thermonuclear device is to hand.
But you have given me to think.
Of course, if you really want to see intellectuals squirm, just interject my firm conviction that animals always go to heaven.



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Husband

posted May 26, 2009 at 9:41 am


Nat,
“How do treat others?”
Doing unto others as we would have them do to us is “the sum of the laws and the prophets”, according to the Christian Bible.
Too bad so many “Christians” ignore this.
Ditto for “what you do to the least of these you do to me”.



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