Pontifications

Pontifications


Tiller abortion clinic closing permanently

posted by David Gibson

That’s the story from Tiller’s family, via the laywers.

So can the argument be made that suspected killer Scott Roeder’s act was effective and perhaps justifiable? The pro-life movement is worried:

Even some abortion opponents, who had long devoted their efforts to closing down Dr. Tiller’s clinic, said they did not wish to see it happen under these circumstances. Last week, Troy Newman, the leader of Operation Rescue, had said that closing the clinic now would send a worrisome message. “Good God, do not close this abortion clinic for this reason,” he said in an interview with The New York Times. “Every kook in the world will get some notion.”

 

 



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Your Name

posted June 9, 2009 at 2:01 pm


Dear Troy Newman,
Where were you when we listened to decades of overwrought claims by anti-abortion forces screaming that abortion was murder? Why didn’t you correct them? Why did you let the radicals like Randall Terry set the agenda rather than working with everyone to make abortion rare, safe and legal? Stop feeling sorry for yourself. Start acting like an American citizen rather than someone who wants to undermine our legal system with your religious dogma. Learn something from this and take your share responsibility for it.



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freelunch

posted June 9, 2009 at 2:02 pm


I was 2:01 pm.
Beliefnet litters my screen with popups and popunders but doesn’t bother to fix captcha. Why?



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RJohnson

posted June 9, 2009 at 2:11 pm


Mr. Newman, for years your organization has harassed clinic workers, following them home of an evening to confront them in their homes. For years you have used the rhetoric of “murderer”, “baby-killer”, and worse to describe both the clinic workers, pro-choice individuals, and even those who, like me, strive to find a middle ground to reduce the need for abortions.
Now, one of the people who has listened to you and others in your movement took the words seriously and acted to stop a murderer. They took your rhetoric to the next logical step.
And you are disappointed? Surprised?
I’m sorry, but words mean things. If there is a backlash from this (and I think there will be a strong one) or if there are copy-cat murderers who seek to close other clinics, you and others in your movement will be partially responsible.
Just as we have held extremist Imam’s in the Muslim faith responsible for their inflammatory rhetoric about Jewish people, the nation of Israel, and even the “great Satan” America, so we should hold you and others like you responsible for the violence done in response to your rhetoric.



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Panthera

posted June 9, 2009 at 4:31 pm


Dear Pro-Lifers,
The death of every woman who will now be unable to have a baby who has died in-utero removed and must now, herself either die or suffer future sterility is entirely on your heads.
Yes, Dr. Tiller was one of very few doctors in the US still willing to perform this procedure which had nothing whatsoever to do with ending a life or abortion.
Thanks to you, now this medical recourse to save lives is gone.
Hope you’re happy now. Just think how many women will die, how many children who could have been born you and you alone have prevented.
What a wonderful, Christian act of Charity that was.
Carry on.



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Tom

posted June 9, 2009 at 4:51 pm


Panthera,
When’s the last time you heard of a woman dying from delivery and late term pregnancy from no access to an abortion? Compare this happening to the number of women dying from botched abortion, then get back to me.
You will keep me posted now, won’t you?
Thank you for your eloquence and have a wonderful day :-)



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Panthera

posted June 9, 2009 at 5:20 pm


Tom,
If you could possibly bury your hatred of women for two seconds and actually go back to read what I wrote…no, I will make it easy for you.
Sadly, babies sometimes die during a pregnancy of natural causes. If this death occurs after a certain point in time (varies), the mother’s body often can not cleanse itself of the poor, dead, child’s remains.
She then dies, herself, horribly. Or, when doctor’s are finally found (many won’t touch this condition thanks to the christianists), the emergency operation frequently leaves her sterile.
This situation is what Dr. Tiller treated.
Now, just what, please, does this have to do with botched abortions?
Personally, I would rather see no abortions and only wanted pregnancies. Given that the decision needs must rest upon the shoulders of the woman who is pregnant – no one else has standing – then I would far prefer to see her terminate the pregnancy safely than with a rusty coat-hanger in a dirty alleyway.



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Tom

posted June 9, 2009 at 6:34 pm


I asked a rather simple question which apparently bears repeating:
When’s the last time you heard of a woman dying from delivery and late term pregnancy from no access to an abortion?
And FYI, Tiller aborted viable third trimester preborns, something you (and so many others) don’t seem to be aware of.



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pagansister

posted June 9, 2009 at 7:29 pm


Well, it certainly looks like the accused murderer of Doctor Tiller got his wish…the clinic is/will be closed. It is a shame that a man who, when proven guilty, can claim to have accomplished his goal…kill inorder to stop a man, in this case a doctor, from performing legal procedures. Guess he can spend his jail time praying! There are those, I suspect, in the Christian community who feel that Dr. Tiller’s murder was justified. Not all, but some.



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Your Name

posted June 9, 2009 at 8:22 pm


Don’t ‘businesses’ close when there is no longer a need for the services – or when there is no longer any one interested in taking
it over – or when the ‘price’ asked for buying the business is just
too high? Why credit the killer with success when there are many other factors that may explain the closing. Doesn’t it at least
say that the ‘abortion’ lobby is so weak that it can’t find a replacement?



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RJohnson

posted June 9, 2009 at 11:11 pm


The most god-awful stupid comment I’ve heard lately is: “Don’t ‘businesses’ close when there is no longer a need for the services – or when there is no longer any one interested in taking it over – or when the ‘price’ asked for buying the business is just too high? Why credit the killer with success when there are many other factors that may explain the closing. Doesn’t it at least say that the ‘abortion’ lobby is so weak that it can’t find a replacement?”
You know, you can’t make up one like this. No way.



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Panthera

posted June 10, 2009 at 3:18 am


RJohnson,
Sadly, you can read as much of it – or worse – all over the ‘net, and listen to it on any right-wing program.
The religious right is trying hard not to let their ecstasy at this murder pour forth from their mouths and their keyboards, but it’s spewing out pretty fast anyway.
It might be better if they were to actually just come out and tell the truth: They hated Dr. Tiller and are overjoyed he was murdered.
Oh, Tom, now that Dr. Tiller has been killed, I am quite sure it is only a matter of time until you get your fervent wish and we hear of a woman who has died for lack of his specialized medical services. Just be patient, and you’ll have the poor woman dead to delight over.



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ann

posted June 10, 2009 at 8:38 am


Panthera, you need to bring it down a notch, your tone is reminding me of the tone of the right wingers…not helpful in the discussion.



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Your Name

posted June 10, 2009 at 8:51 am


If there are clinics closing because of their evil ways,there were
also clinics who are caring for the conceiving women to give birth
their love child safe into this world.Only those women who are blessed
by the Father can deliver their baby no matter what,with epidural or
painful labor,is not the concern of these good women,but the pain of their labor is equal to the joy once they see their child delivered safe and crying healthy.



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Leight

posted June 10, 2009 at 9:20 am


….such a clinic would have never opened in Heaven….



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Panthera

posted June 10, 2009 at 10:25 am


ann,
Sorry.
When people are telling you:
They want to dissolve your marriage.
They want to take your children away from you.
You aren’t even a Christian.
Then you tend to get a bit short with them.
One thing the conservative Christians completely overlook in these discussions is that the people they are intentionally and purposely hurting are no longer willing to play the victims.
The ironic thing is, it was the gay vote which cost McSame and Barracuda Barbie the election…meaning the Supreme Court will now be pro-women’s choice for at least another generation.
The hatred and persecution of us has left us with very little patience. Still, you are right – there is no reason for me to behave as my enemies, the conservative Christians do. I mean that figuratively – it is only the conservative Christians who are actually murdering people.



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pagansister

posted June 10, 2009 at 1:47 pm


It is interesting that those who think that ALL births are special, probably haven’t seen a woman over joyed at the birth of a horribly deformed child, who either dies at birth or soon after…such as a child who is anencephalic. Where is the joy in that? Having to have a late term abortion is horrible, but there are instances where there really is no choice…because there is no life if the brain isn’t formed or the skull isn’t formed etc. The mother whose life is in danger if indeed the pregnancy is continued etc. So it is, IMO, unfair to blame the woman or her doctor for doing what is necessary.
No abortion, IMO, no matter when it is performed, is an easy decision for a woman. IMO anyone who thinks that women just terminate a pregnancy easily has NO CLUE about it(maybe some do, but not in my experience). The best would be not to ever have a need to terminate, but life doesn’t work like that. Prevention is best….but even in a planned, wanted pregnancy things don’t always work out right…and things have to be stopped.



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Panthera

posted June 10, 2009 at 2:03 pm


pagansister,
I think that is why the ultimate decision must rest with the woman herself and not be made by anyone else.
It puzzles me enormously how the conservative Christians pick and choose what parts of the Bible to ignore (being charitable to others, not being self-righteous, concentrating on the beam in one’s own eye…) and the parts they demand all of us follow.
Basically, once science and medicine had come to the conclusion that being gay was not disordered, the Catholic church and the fundamentalists no longer had a leg to stand on in the secular law. Forbid is the door of their churches? Fine – who wants to worship God with hateful, spiteful bigots anyway?
But just as they made idiots of themselves over the geocentric view (and Negroes and the flat earth and interracial marriage) so they are determined to do with my God-given right to love my husband.
I don’t think the abortion problem is really as much about “pro-life” issues as about women being empowered to decide for themselves. If these people really cared about life, they would not constantly elect Republicans who cut back on education, health services and social programs to help children and their mothers.
Hating us and oppressing you seems to be all their Christianity is made of.
Sad.



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pagansister

posted June 10, 2009 at 9:24 pm


“I don’t think the abortion problem is really as much about “pro-life” issues as about women being empowered to decide for themselves”. Panthera
I totally agree.
As for hating homosexuals and oppressing women? Gives some Christians a (warped) focus in life! ‘Tis sad.



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Your Name

posted June 11, 2009 at 10:08 am


There is no justification for Tillers’ death. It was murder. Pro-lifers do not advocate murder of their opponents.



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