Lynn v. Sekulow

Lynn v. Sekulow


More to Come

posted by Jay Sekulow
Barry,
 
It’s hard to believe that we’ve been debating these constitutional issues for more than two years now in this space.  I have tremendous respect for you and wish you all the best in your new endeavors.
 
My friend, I’m sure we will continue to square off in other forums – on news programs and in public appearances. I look forward to those opportunities.
 
Since mid-2008, we’ve addressed a wide array of church/state issues – many that have been in the media spotlight – and others that have received little or no attention from the media or the public.  Like you, Barry, I appreciate the input and the comments from loyal readers.
 
While Barry and I will no longer be debating in this space, I will continue to blog for Beliefnet.  The discussion on these vital issues will continue.  I would like to encourage the Beliefnet community to stay tuned – there’s more to come. 
 
Details about my new blog coming soon.
 


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Catherine

posted December 3, 2010 at 4:31 pm


Jay,
Glad to hear you will continue to blog!
I have enjoyed reading and debating the current issues. I also respect and admire your ability to win an argument based on facts, intellect, and sensible reasoning; without ever having to attack your opponent on a personal level.
You’re a true professional!
Best wishes to you and your family, and have a Wonderful and Very
Merry Christmas!
Shalom-
Catherine



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 3, 2010 at 5:18 pm


I’m glad, Jay, that you’re gonna continue t’crank out more of what is correct and right here. Catherine and I, et al, got yo’ back!



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Your Name

posted December 3, 2010 at 6:40 pm


Your a control freak and you took my tried to take my dignity…. sorry I met you and you tripped slipped and stuck your… … into somebody other then your wife….CC



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Your Name

posted December 3, 2010 at 6:41 pm


and yes when I am pissed off I make mistakes… and you…. I didn’t give you permission to do that……..CCCCCCC
What was your name again……



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Your Name

posted December 3, 2010 at 6:46 pm


And Benny I don’t care how many times you read the bible if you do that again, I will press charges…. pure and simple,, and stop acting like I am a sinner when you are the one perpetrating….. I didn’t give you persmission to do that as well….. and of course he remembers my sins no more, your the one trying to dondemn. and how did you get in anyways… go back to your wife, she is not me… and that was awful… and you just wanted a whore… end of story,, and I am not one.. and you just took, you did not give… so you can take your programs and you know where to put them…. I find the Jesus that you try to make you appear to be , nothing more then a lie ..
Jesus wouldn’t do that… you would go to jail for that…. CC



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Your Name

posted December 3, 2010 at 6:57 pm


And no Jay I think that you used and abused me and went away in you
BMW with a whole bunch of ladies to screw , so I don’t care how many times you try and act like you care, you left me for dead after you did that and screwed I don’t know how many ,…. after that … so I don’t find it to be nice….
p.s. don’t mess with my privacy settings or anything else you can get ahold of…. hypocracy at its worst….



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HG

posted December 3, 2010 at 8:36 pm


Cara, am I to understand that Jay Sekulow is one who abused you? Not that I would be surprised. As a recent comment noted recently, it is often the ones who spout off about religion the loudest whose behavior is most atrocious.



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Catherine

posted December 3, 2010 at 10:59 pm


HG aka scrooge–YOUR behavior and words are ATROCIOUS.
You are so negative, insignificant, rude, and boring. Complete antithesis of Jay Sekulow. Your feeble and pathetic attempt to libel is nothing short of utter contempt, envy, and jealousy.
Go crawl back under the miserable rock from whence you came.



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HG

posted December 3, 2010 at 11:17 pm


All I did was ask a question. You congratulate Jay on his ability to win arguments on logic which I have yet to see. On top of which someone on this blog claims he abused her, and you call ME rude? Try, please try, to grow a grain of a brain–you haven’t presented any debate on this blog at all. You call names, and for no reason. Why? Because I don’t believe in your fake God?



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HG

posted December 3, 2010 at 11:20 pm


Another example of someone who so loudly proclaimed faith in God being a total slime is Tony Alamo; who was sentenced to 175 years in jail and ordered to pay a half million dollars EACH to five women whom he sexually abuse. These are the people you defend without a thought, probably because you have no thought. Switch to decaf babe!



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HG

posted December 3, 2010 at 11:28 pm


And to think I gave Catherine credit for being less brain-damaged than the other Jezuzombies who frequent this site. Boy was I wrong about that!



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Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:12 am

Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:20 am

Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:37 am

HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:42 am


Yes Catherine, you are better off letting other people do your talking for you; whatever nonsense you found on youtube HAS to be more intelligent than anything you could produce.



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Rich

posted December 4, 2010 at 2:48 am


Catherine,
Please, spare us your feigned indignity. No one cares. You are the worst sort of Christian, full of yourself and your supposed humility and piety while being nothing other than an arrogant and insufferable witch.
The world is a wonderful place and life is quite grand. It would be even grander if you and your army of sick theocrats would leave the rest of us alone and keep your sickness to yourself. I figure you cultists to be like a person in the throes of addiction, you negatively impact everyone around you and you take a toll upon society that you are too mesmerized by your drug to see.
Get some help.



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Rich

posted December 4, 2010 at 2:52 am


Mr. Incredible,
Saved my last post on this blog for you. Having read your pathetic posts for months now, there is only one thing left that needs to be said to you:
FO&D!



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HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 4:15 am


Hey Rich. I stopped reading his drivel long ago, but it’s hard not to notice that he is still fixated on Boris, you, and I for some reason. Perhaps the many verbal thrashings (due to his extreme ineptitude) we’ve given him caused him to “lose face” with his disciples; coupled, of course, with the poor fellow’s affective disorder.
As for Catherine, I knew she was as brainless as corn, but she must really worship Sekulow to have flown into such a rage simply because I asked Cara if that was the “Jay” who abused her trust (if not more); such a venomous hen!
I was going to quit reading and posting here with Reverend Lynn leaving, but now I’ve decided to continue–for the sheer entertainment value!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, in Whom we are more than conquerors!

posted December 4, 2010 at 5:36 am


“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE. YE ARE CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU.” — Jesus

Rich says:
Mr. Incredible,
Saved my last post on this blog for you. Having read your pathetic posts for months now, there is only one thing left that needs to be said to you…
Mr. Incredible says:
I’m flattered that you spend your last time and energy here on me; shows how important I am to you, in how much pain you’ve been, how much your eyes have burned reading my posts, you poor child.
Now, it appears, you will follow Butthead Boris of scardy-cat fame.
Rich says:
FO&D!
Mr. Incredible says:
Knowing you from what you’ve posted here and HOW you’ve posted here and the state of your altered mind and heart, I must assume that that means something gross and nasty, a figment of a gross and nasty mind and heart.
FO&D! may as well be in Chinese cuz I dunno what that is. So, no impact. Even if I understand it, no impact [Romans 8:1 [KJV]].



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name – the Name above ALL names!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:25 am


HG says:
…it is often the ones who spout off about religion the loudest whose behavior is most atrocious.
Mr. Incredible says:
Prove it

AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who will cast out none who come to Him!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:26 am


HG says:
All I did was ask a question.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Really??? That’s all you did??? Anybody who reads that post can see that’s not all you did. So, you lied. Surprise, surprise.
HG says:
[to Catherine] You congratulate Jay on his ability to win arguments on logic which I have yet to see.
Mr. Incredible says:
Of course you fail to see it. You are incapable of seeing it.
HG says:
On top of which someone on this blog claims he abused her…
Mr. Incredible says:
And you KNOW that she is referring to the Jay of this blog?? Can there be no other “Jay”?
HG says:
… and you [Catherine] call ME rude?
Mr. Incredible says:
She’s just writing what has come to be known to be the truth.
HG says:
Try, please try, to grow a grain of a brain–you haven’t presented any debate on this blog at all.
Mr. Incredible says:
As YOU say, you can’t see it. That doesn’t mean it’s not there.
HG says:
You call names, and for no reason. Why?
Mr. Incredible says:
Is just blowback from the fires YOU and your little friends started long ago and continue today.
HG says:
Because I don’t believe in your fake God?
Mr. Incredible says:
We don’t believe in a fake God, either.

JESUS CHRIST — THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE — THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER !



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who is the Light of the world!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:27 am


HG says:
Another example of someone who so loudly proclaimed faith in God being a total slime is Tony Alamo; who was sentenced to 175 years in jail and ordered to pay a half million dollars EACH to five women whom he sexually abuse.
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s the failure of a man. It’s not the failure of Faith.
HG says:
These are the people you defend without a thought…
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that, in this country, he is not guilty until proved guilty. So, he was proved to be guilty. Proved, according to law, of committing the crime. It was his spiritual failure that set his heart on the wrong course. We support him in the effort to get him back on the correct, spiritual path. We don’t defend what he did. You would have her everybody believe that we defend what he did. Of course, you lie again.
HG says:
… probably because you have no thought.
Mr. Incredible says:
None that YOU can discern, anyway, as YOU have said, yourself.

JESUS CHRIST — THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE — THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER !



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who is the Light of the world!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:30 am


HG says:
Yes Catherine, you are better off letting other people do your talking for you; whatever nonsense you found on youtube HAS to be more intelligent than anything you could produce.
Mr. Incredible says:
You’d like to believe that. You believe a lotta things that aren’t true.

JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS, TROUNCING GIANTS !



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Whose Blood paid for sins!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:32 am


“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE. YE ARE CLEAN THROUGH THE WORD WHICH I HAVE SPOKEN UNTO YOU.” — Jesus

Rich says:
Catherine,
You are the worst sort of Christian, full of yourself and your supposed humility and piety while being nothing other than an arrogant and insufferable witch.
Mr. Incredible says:
All that anger. What did your parents do to you? What ARE your parents doing to you?
Rich says:
The world is a wonderful place and life is quite grand.
Mr. Incredible says:
No thanks to YOU and your likes.
Rich says:
It would be even grander if you and your army of sick theocrats would leave the rest of us alone and keep your sickness to yourself.
Mr. Incredible says:
Mark 1:24
Luke 4:34
Rich says:
I figure you cultists to be like a person in the throes of addiction, you negatively impact everyone around you and you take a toll upon society that you are too mesmerized by your drug to see.
Mr. Incredible says:
Funny, the Devil says that, too. We don’t listen to him, either.
Rich says:
Get some help.
Mr. Incredible says:
We already have the help we need from God, through Christ. You and your little friends should get some, too.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Light That shines on all who believe on Him!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:34 am


HG says:
Hey Rich. I stopped reading his drivel long ago…
Mr. Incredible says:
No you haven’t, and what I write burns your eyes.
HG says:
…but it’s hard not to notice that he is still fixated on Boris, you, and I for some reason.
Mr. Incredible says:
“Fixated”?? Not quite. It’s just that you three – Moe, Larry and Curly – are the most prominent goofball posters here, and it’s so much fun poking you dummies with sticks.
HG says:
Perhaps the many verbal thrashings…
Mr. Incredible says:
You mean the many verbal “babblings.”
HG says:
… (due to his extreme ineptitude)…
Mr. Incredible says:
In other words, you don’t agree with me. Gee.
HG says:
… we’ve given him…
Mr. Incredible says:
Again, you mental patients have presented babbling and bubbling excrement. Catherine, I and others are here to clean it up.
HG says:
…caused him to “lose face” with his disciples…
Mr. Incredible says:
You need to say things like that in order to try to feel better about the pain that wells up in you when you read our posts.
HG says:
… coupled, of course, with the poor fellow’s affective disorder.
Mr. Incredible says:
The only disorder here is YOU and your little friends.
HG says:
As for Catherine, I knew she was as brainless as corn…
Mr. Incredible says:
You think that just cuz you don’t agree with her, cuz you can’t seduce her to your dark side.
HG says:
…but she must really worship Sekulow to have flown into such a rage simply because I asked Cara if that was the “Jay” who abused her trust (if not more)…
Mr. Incredible says:
“Such a rage”?? There is no rage.
HG says:
… such a venomous hen!
Mr. Incredible says:
We see your anti-woman tendencies.
HG says:
I was going to quit reading and posting here with Reverend Lynn leaving…
Mr. Incredible says:
No, no, no! Please don’t! Don’t go! We’re having so much fun watching you and your little friends go off the deep end.
HG says:
But now I’ve decided to continue…
Mr. Incredible says:
WHEW! Mommy talked you into it, huh. Oh, that’s right – you’re anti-woman. So, why would you listen to your mommy.
HG says:
–for the sheer entertainment value!
Mr. Incredible says:
No, you’re just very shallow.

AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who does not take His eye off the Righteous!

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:41 am


JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS, TROUNCING GIANTS !

Rich says:
Mr. Incredible,
… your pathetic posts …
Mr. Incredible says:
Tsk, tsk. You poor child.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 8:26 am


If HG and Rich keep writing b’loney like that, we’re not gonna know when they’ve gone senile.



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Mr. Incedible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 4, 2010 at 8:44 am


Rich says:
Catherine,
You are the worst sort of Christian…
Mr. Incredible says:
Imagine, an atheist instructing a Christian on Christianity, instructing a Christian on something the atheist rejects. It’s too funny.
Again, the atheist, thinking he has something valuable to say, has no experience with/in God, through Christ, to say anything credible/authoritative on the subject. So, there’s nothing the atheist can say about it that we should consider.



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Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 11:36 am

Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:19 pm

Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 12:21 pm

Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 3:03 pm


If our posts burn their eyes, you can just imagine what those youtube linx will do to their ears. Funny how they choose to ignore things just to suit what they wanna think; what kinda intelligence, reason, logic, Science is THAT?



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 3:09 pm


Just wonder which atheist, having rejected God and Christ, is gonna be the next one to instruct us on what it means to be “Christian.”
The atheists’ relying on what they reject is one-a the funniest things t’hit these pages.



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Your Name

posted December 4, 2010 at 3:09 pm


Well HG,
I find it absolutely nuts some of the things which went on, and I will not tell the details, for they were disgusting… and I was not the one to blame.. put it to you that way,, and there were a whole bunch of religious leaders involved in absolutely vomitous ways.. that is all I have to say, and they tried to paint me as the scarlett letter girl, which it couldn’t have been further from the truth.
So you want to know what I think of that, when the abusive situation could have been perceived as a complete criminal offence by numerous people and they ran away and tried to paint it as something other then it was.. Then a whole bunch of them came back and tried to say it was the spirit of jezabel,one in particular spouting off at church with the first letter B……, and then a whole bunch of them called me a whore, when I was taken to another room, when I was passing out and dissociating because of what was happening, and then it took me a year in therapy to try and make some sort of sence about the whole situation, because they clearly didn’t want to own up to what they did. My writings reflected the damage they did to me, I possable had a stroke during that occasion, my left arm was going numb and I blacked out … and then I had flashes of various places , but not a clear consistant memory of the event. I do know a lot of them who were involved… and that is that… So the absurd comments on it being a part that I voluntarily asked for, are just that a flat out lie, and you know they wanted to paint it the way they wanted too, all the while sporting all their money when I was damaged sychologically from the event.. not only that, they brought me in front of the church after they did it to me, naked in front of people.. and I don’t know exactly who did it, after that, I died my hair about 4 different colors, because people thought that when I went in front of the church it was my action, not theirs, and I was clearly pulled by the hair and arm and taken in front of a chuch to be shamed for something which I did not voluntarily say yes to, in other words you get me drift.. this is just a nice way of putting it..
So the hypocritical action of them trying to paint me as something other then who I am, and they are somehow innocent in the event is just that: HYPOCRITS
But I must move on.. so , I found religious leaders to not be what I thought them to be, and I trusted them.. of course the bible points that out… there will be the religous hupocritical leaders who say all these fancy prayers to get noticed without the relationship of truely knowing God.. For show so to speak… not impressed by all their money.. I am not saying that money is not bad because it is a blessing, it is just when they act like they have what it takes and I or you do not, acting as if they are doing what is worthy of a blessing and I am not,,, that is the vomitous remark .. because I know what they did, and they tried to say it was me… vomit…
anyways, I have to move on from this, …. and have a good life worthy of living which God intended me to have…. He wants the best for me and being poor, abused , neglected and shamed just is not the life which he has intended me to have.. He loves me.. and they are what they are the,WORLD……….cc



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 4, 2010 at 3:22 pm


NO TAX HIKES FOR ANYBODY! The Senate agrees that NOBODY should getta tax hike next month! Halleluja!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 3:34 pm


HG says:
And to think I gave Catherine credit for being less brain-damaged than the other Jezuzombies…
Mr. Incredible says:
“Brain-damaged” for Jesus! What a deal! I’ll take it over the retardation it takes to be an atheist.



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HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 4:31 pm


I would agree that the tax rate cuts should not be extended for anybody, since the Republikans voted against keeping taxes lower on amounts below $250K (for everybody). It sure made it easy to see that the Republikans are completey controlled by the plutocracy. They have shown their hand, and their vote clearly shows that if they can’t get tax breaks for the wealthy–they are willing to screw EVERYBODY. It is nothing short of a “tantrum”. Yes, let ALL rate cuts expire, or we can expect every “fee” under the sun to triple, and cops will be writing tens of thousands of extra tickets for “jay”-walking etc. to keep their operating budgets. It’s either that or enjoy the next few years of living off what “trickles down”, and we’ve already seen that doesn’t work for anybody but the wealthy (their increased annual wealth was almost one hundred thousand dollars during ten years of trickle down economics–also called “voodoo economics” by George Bush Sr.–while the average working man’s increase over ten years was a few hundred dollars, (again, that’s over ten years!). Oh yeah, and we’ve seen all the jobs they say that creates–we’ve seen them go to China and India! They want to manage us like children with a small allowance!
Cara, I am truly sorry that happened to you. It sounds rotten, and I have no doubt that, IF there IS a God–He loves you and despises them. Now watch them spend their money trying to manufacture a golden needle big enough for a camel to pass through its eye!



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pagansister

posted December 4, 2010 at 4:33 pm


What is all the nonsense above? Sounds like folks are having personal problems and are using this particular blog to spout them. Waste of time.



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Catherine

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:07 pm

Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:50 pm


So, HG wants everybody to get a tax hike next month so that small business, already strapped, can go outta business and we can have more people on the unemployment lines.
So far, businesses have not been keen to hire cuz they are unsure whether they will get a tax hike next month. If they get a tax hike, as HG wants, they will be sure not to hire, will hold back even more investment, and we’ll be worse off than we are now cuz it is investment — that is, the wealthy putting their money at risk — that creates jobs.
HG and the Dems haven’t learned anything the past two years. That’s why we changed Congress, and that’s why we will change The White House in two years. It’s gonna happen.
NO TAX HIKES FOR ANYBODY! STOP THE DEMOCRATS’ CLASS WARFARE!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 6:57 pm


pagansister says:
What is all the nonsense above? Sounds like folks are having personal problems and are using this particular blog to spout them. Waste of time.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Where did you learn about “compassion,” in the back alley during repulsive, filthy, incessant homosex? It figures.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 7:13 pm


HG says, ignorantly:
…–we’ve seen them go to China and India!
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s cuz people like you make it impossible — too expensive — to do business here.
How much do YOU wanna pay for a product so you can keep the manufacture of it here?
Letting people keep more of their money — keeping the tax rates low — will encourage investment here, creating more jobs here and broadening the tax base, creating more revenue for the United States which will trim the deficit and the debt. That will not happen if everybody get the tax hike that’s coming next month cuz the Democrats wanna play politics, as usual.
We threw them out this last election. We’ll do it again in two years!



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Old Lou

posted December 4, 2010 at 7:14 pm


Any tax increase on the upper income levels will only effect about 3% of small businesses. Increasing taxes should be avoided but the impact on small businesses is being overstated.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-09-20/obama-soros-are-among-small-businesses-bearing-share-of-tax-on-wealthy.html



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HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 7:38 pm


I agree with you on the overstated impact on small business Old Lou, and note that “small business” includes businesses as large as GE. I disagree that raising the tax rate on amounts over $250K should be avoided (back to the old rate) because I believe that is the price of two wars and a financial catastrophe orchestrated by these very people who claim to be “worth” millions each year. I don’t think it is wise to lower taxes while prosecuting two wars and inflating our national debt as we already spent vast amounts of money simply paying the interest on the debt. If the Republikans refuse to allow income under $250K to be taxed at the lower rate, which they have done, then I think it would be better to return all rates to what they were before the “temporary” rate cuts were enacted.



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HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 8:03 pm


Why did the Republikans vote to increase taxes on everybody? The House voted to extend lower tax rates to amounts under %250K over the overwhelming objection of Republikans, and the Senate Republikans shot it down. How many of you make more than a quarter of million dollars a year? For those fortunate enought to have a job which pays about $500K (half a mil a year ain’t bad!), the taxes would have remained the same on the first %250K and gone back to the old rate on the amount above that. In other words, the second $250K would have been taxed at 39% instead of at 36%–an increased tax liability of seven thousand five hundred dollars. Oooooh OUCH! Sorry, that’s the price of two wars and a financial crisis. So again I ask, WHY in the world did Republikans vote to RAISE TAXES on EVERYONE??



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HG

posted December 4, 2010 at 8:06 pm


Forgot to note that, although the impact on “small business” is overstated, IF their concern was for small business–it would be EASY to craft exemptions for small business.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 4, 2010 at 11:58 pm


HG says:
…the impact on “small business” is overstated…
Mr. Incredible says:
Small businesses, themselves, agree with me. They cannot “overstate” their condition and the coming condition, if taxes go up next month. There is high unemployment cuz businesses are not hiring, afraid of spending too much ahead of tax hikes. So, there will be more unemployment, if taxes go up.
HG says:
…IF their concern was for small business–it would be EASY to craft exemptions for small business.
Mr. Incredible says:
“Their” concern is for employment and a healthy economy. A healthy economy depends on small business, for the most part. Small businesses are investments by “wealthy” people putting THEIR OWN money at risk.
In any case, you are against the wealthy, and, if there were exemptions, you’d fight that, too. So, you’re being hypocritical. No surprise there.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 5, 2010 at 12:15 am


HG asks:
Why did the Republikans vote to increase taxes on everybody?
Mr. Incredible says:
They didn’t. Democrats want to end the tax cuts, thereby raising taxes on everybody. Now they want to keep the cuts only for the middle class which does not invest, does not put their monies at risk. For the most part, the middle class doesn’t create jobs.
HG says:
The House voted to extend lower tax rates to amounts under %250K over the overwhelming objection of Republikans, and the Senate Republikans shot it down.
Mr. Incredible says:
Tax cuts should be for everybody, not just for some. You favor class warfare. Again, no surprise.
HG says:
How many of you make more than a quarter of million dollars a year?
Mr. Incredible says:
Irrelevant. They make the money and it’s their own. They put their money at risk. They shouldn’t be punished for it. So, if taxes go up for them, they will put their money elsewhere to benefit others outside this country. They have a Right to a return on their investments. Higher taxes take that away.
HG says:
For those fortunate enought to have a job which pays about $500K (half a mil a year ain’t bad!), the taxes would have remained the same on the first %250K and gone back to the old rate on the amount above that.
Mr. Incredible says:
They would be treated differently than others, based solely on money they create through their own initiative. Discrimination.
HG says:
In other words, the second $250K would have been taxed at 39% instead of at 36%–an increased tax liability of seven thousand five hundred dollars.
Mr. Incredible says:
Again, they would be treated differently, based on their ability to risk THEIR OWN money.
HG says:
Oooooh OUCH! Sorry, that’s the price of two wars and a financial crisis.
Mr. Incrfedible says:
Obammy and his congressonal goons could-a, with their congressional majority and The White House, ended the wars in one day. They didn’t cuz they know the importance of them. They could-a defunded them during Bush43. They didn’t cuz they knew the importance of them.
The financial crisis was created by Barney “Lollipop” Frank, Christopher “Dunce” Dodd and Bill “”What Does ‘Is’ Mean” Clinton. They thought, in the mid-90s, that everybody oughta be able to afford a house. They rejected regulation of the mortgage-lending industry. Sub-prime was born.
George Bush warned, in ’03, of the coming crisis that is the result of what the Democrats did, or didn’t do, cuz they wanted votes.
John McCain offered legislation, in ’03, to regulate the mortgage-lenders. Frank said that they don’t need regulation, and, so, the crisis began, and here we are.
HG says:
So again I ask, WHY in the world did Republikans vote to RAISE TAXES on EVERYONE??
Mr. Incredible says:
They didn’t. They voted to force the Democrats to surrender to NO TAX HIKE for ANYBODY, which will now happen. The Democrats will agree to extend the Bush tax cuts, and we can move on. You people are gonna lose this one…too.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 5, 2010 at 12:19 am


HG asks:
Why did the Republikans vote to increase taxes on everybody?
Mr. Incredible says:
They didn’t. Democrats want to end the tax cuts, thereby raising taxes on everybody. Now they want to keep the cuts only for the middle class which does not invest, does not put their monies at risk. For the most part, the middle class doesn’t create jobs.
HG says:
The House voted to extend lower tax rates to amounts under %250K over the overwhelming objection of Republikans, and the Senate Republikans shot it down.
Mr. Incredible says:
Tax cuts should be for everybody, not just for some. You favor class warfare. Again, no surprise.
HG says:
How many of you make more than a quarter of million dollars a year?
Mr. Incredible says:
Irrelevant. They make the money and it’s their own. They put their money at risk. They shouldn’t be punished for it. So, if taxes go up for them, they will put their money elsewhere to benefit others outside this country. They have a Right to a return on their investments. Higher taxes take that away.
HG says:
For those fortunate enought to have a job which pays about $500K (half a mil a year ain’t bad!), the taxes would have remained the same on the first %250K and gone back to the old rate on the amount above that.
Mr. Incredible says:
They would be treated differently than others, based solely on money they create through their own initiative. Discrimination.
HG says:
In other words, the second $250K would have been taxed at 39% instead of at 36%–an increased tax liability of seven thousand five hundred dollars.
Mr. Incredible says:
Again, they would be treated differently, based on their ability to risk THEIR OWN money.
HG says:
Oooooh OUCH! Sorry, that’s the price of two wars and a financial crisis.
Mr. Incrfedible says:
Obammy and his congressonal goons could-a, with their congressional majority and The White House, ended the wars in one day. They didn’t cuz they know the importance of them. They could-a defunded them during Bush43. They didn’t cuz they knew the importance of them.
The financial crisis was created by Barney “Lollipop” Frank, Christopher “Dunce” Dodd and Bill “”What Does ‘Is’ Mean” Clinton. They thought, in the mid-90s, that everybody oughta be able to afford a house. They rejected regulation of the mortgage-lending industry. Sub-prime was born.
George Bush warned, in ’03, of the coming crisis that is the result of what the Democrats did, or didn’t do, cuz they wanted votes.
John McCain offered legislation, in ’03, to regulate the mortgage-lenders. Frank said that they don’t need regulation, and, so, the crisis began, and here we are.
HG says:
So again I ask, WHY in the world did Republikans vote to RAISE TAXES on EVERYONE??
Mr. Incredible says:
They didn’t. They voted to force the Democrats to surrender to NO TAX HIKE for ANYBODY, which will now happen. The Democrats will agree to extend the Bush tax cuts, and we can move on. You people are gonna lose this one…too.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 5, 2010 at 3:56 am


http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703959704575454061524326290.html
The 3% figure, according to this WSJ report, is misleading.
In any case, Obammy is ready to stop any tax hike just cuz Senate Republicans called his bluff. Now he’s gonna have-ta give. There will be no tax hike for anybody!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who will judge!

posted December 5, 2010 at 1:20 pm


Catherine, you’re gonna like this a lot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE Real Life. Real people. Food Court.



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Your Name

posted December 5, 2010 at 3:20 pm


pagensister, whoever you are
life is personal, it does not have to be without God, as yourself implies.. so you can talk factual, while others may or may not choose to write something personal, especially when the people they are writing about just so happen to be a part of this sight regarding personal issues which effect life and lifestyle….
so whatever you beef is, people have the choice to of freedom to write, it is called freedom of the press….
cc



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, King of kings, Lord of lords!

posted December 5, 2010 at 8:21 pm


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE
Right there. In public. Loud, too. And nothing could stop them. Atheist, Muslim and Buddhist eyes and ears must-a been burnin’ real good, and, as Martha Stewart says, “It’s a good thing!” I wish I could-a been part of it.



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Catherine

posted December 5, 2010 at 10:39 pm


Mr. I
Wow…that utube clip was Beautiful!!
“He shall reign forever and ever”
Thx for sharing.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 6, 2010 at 3:22 am


Catherine,
I can’t get over how wonderful it is, and how people there who had nothing to do with it were amazed and showed some kinda joy at hearing it in that situation. THAT’s the joy of God through His Christ!
Hallelujah Chorus Hymn
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
For the Lord God Omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
For the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
The kingdom of this world
Is become the kingdom of our Lord,
And of His Christ, and of His Christ;
And He shall reign for ever and ever,
For ever and ever, forever and ever,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
King of kings, and Lord of lords,
And Lord of lords,
And He shall reign,
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings, forever and ever,
And Lord of lords,
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings! and Lord of lords!
And He shall reign forever and ever,
King of kings! and Lord of lords!
Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Hallelujah!



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 6, 2010 at 4:10 am


There is at least one atheist who watched the vid again and again and read the lyric above and changed forever.



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Catherine

posted December 6, 2010 at 8:35 am


My hope and prayer is for HG :)
Peace on earth-Good will towards men.
p.s. before I send this….my first security word below that I just typed was “Christ”.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the LORD of lords, KING of kings!

posted December 6, 2010 at 1:48 pm


Catherine says:
…my first security word below that I just typed was “Christ”.
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s a Message from Him, directly to YOU, for you to tell us.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name ABOVE ALL names!

posted December 6, 2010 at 1:52 pm


“Let the redeemed of the Lord say so!”



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Your Name

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:29 pm


nevermind, talk of the morning to you…. any hoot….



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Catherine

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:31 pm

Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:42 pm


Catherine says:
My hope and prayer is for HG…
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s fine, and I feel the same. We’re doin’ what we’re s’posed t’do outta love — that is, the Word as the ultimate expression…but Romans 8:28 — He gotta receive it. If he doesn’t, HE won’t benefit, but God will use him for the benefit of those who are born again, even though HG doesn’t know it.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:45 pm


The atheists here cannot be happy. Their mouths are stopped.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:49 pm


The atheists tried to prevail here. Instead, the LORD prevails here!
And, by the way, we could add Genesis 4:7 to Romans 8:28.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:53 pm


And we may as well add John 3:16 — thank you, LORD! — to Romans 8:28 [w/ Genesis 4:7], as 3:16 tells us His purpose, even in the first SEVEN WORDS OF PERFECTION [KJV].



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 6, 2010 at 2:58 pm


First, Belial Boris ran off, and, now, HG and Rich have run off, fig’rin’ that they can’t take it. It’s too much f’them.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus the King of kings!

posted December 6, 2010 at 3:16 pm

Catherine

posted December 6, 2010 at 4:02 pm


Honestly, I don’t think those folks are here by chance.
My sincere hope is salvation for all of the above.
I was that person (but much worse) before I was saved….the only goodness in me is through Christ.
I am so thankful that God never gave up on me; He is patient, loving, and kind. His Holy Spirit is powerful and pierces the heart.
One of my favorite scriptures is when the apostle Paul states:
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acception, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”
-1 Tim 1:15
I don’t deserve salvation…I praise God for his love, mercy, and grace to send Christ in my stead.
Of all the songs in the world, this one is my favorite. It speaks to me, it says it all, it changed it all, He paid it all.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onxhvivQYfI
Greatest is Love.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name to Whom goes the glory!

posted December 6, 2010 at 5:04 pm


Catherine says:
Honestly, I don’t think those folks are here by chance.
Mr. Incredible says:
I know they aren’t, and they don’t realize, even with all their s’posed knowledge, intelligence, reason, logic and Science, that they are playin’ right into prophecy to the benefit of those who are born again.
Catherine says:
My sincere hope is salvation for all of the above.
Mr. Incredible says:
Salvation is offered to all, intended for all, but only those who receive Him through Christ get it. He calls ALL to repentance, but most will not repent.
Catherine says:
I was that person (but much worse) before I was saved….the only goodness in me is through Christ.
Mr. Incrfedible says:
I was, too, until I got so low and opened to Him, and, then, I said, in these words and pointing my finger, “I gotta open heart and a teachable spirit. You give me everything you got!” I haven’t been the same since, and I have NEVER doubted Him.
Catherine says:
I am so thankful that God never gave up on me…
Mr. Incredible says:
Love doesn’t give up, but He is not infinitely patient.
Catherine says:
…; He is patient, loving, and kind.
Mr. Incredible says:
However, He is also just, and, as with any good parent, He won’t let His love stand in the way of discipline and correction.
Catherine says:
His Holy Spirit is powerful and pierces the heart.
Mr. Incredible says:
However, His love won’t force. It must be received.
One of my favorite scriptures is when the apostle Paul states:
“This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acception, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am chief.”
-1 Tim 1:15
I don’t deserve salvation…I praise God for his love, mercy, and grace to send Christ in my stead.
Mr. Incredible says:
To HIM goes the glory through Christ!
BTW, that vid – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE – is angelic. It must be the sound and look of the Kingdom.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 6, 2010 at 5:06 pm


I fergot to credit your statement that begins with, “One of my favorite…”



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Catherine

posted December 6, 2010 at 5:55 pm

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 7, 2010 at 3:03 am


HG must be sore disgusted at his Dear Leader, Obammy, for DLO’s surrender to Republicans in the Senate.
As I said here, there will be no tax hike for ANYBODY next month.



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Your Name

posted December 7, 2010 at 4:45 pm


who cares and so what…



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Steve

posted December 7, 2010 at 6:19 pm


Hi Ya’ll,
I’m really sorry that I haven’t had time to come out and play in a while. I’m really disappointed I didn’t make it on the same list as Rich, HG and Boris.
Jay, and the people who support you are the most dangerous thing facing our country. You do not debate anything, you resort to the I WILL SHOUT YOU DOWN method when ever you are faced with rational thinkers. I’ve listened to your lies on the radio. You are truly seeking to start the next world war.
I will continue to track you and support every cause you seek to shut down and censor in your theocraticly warped brain.
Please please, go crawl back into your limousine (do the dupes who listen to you on the radio know the lifestyle they are supporting?), be rich (you’ll have a much harder time making it into heaven), and continue to do the devils work (I don’t believe in either, but I couldn’t resist).
best wishes,
Steve
PS: Mr Incredible, please please please pick on me some more. It makes me feel victimized and more christ like (oh, sorry, I can’t feel like someone who never existed). Get out from behind your mighty keyboard and see a little bit of this world you claim your deity created.



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HG

posted December 7, 2010 at 8:20 pm


Hi Steve, on behalf of the “triad of evil”, welcome, it’s always good to see another voice of reason. Keep it up and you will quickly rise from the rank of “butt-dart” to “Anti-Christ”. Most of the thumpers here are too unsure of themselves to do much more than call names or post links to other people’s opinions, generally avoiding actual debate or logic like the plague. Eliciting any genuine response is nearly impossible, even on matters of religion (Still haven’t been able to pry out whether one must believe in Jesus prior to death in order to enter Heaven, or if one is allowed to wait until after death to decide). However, extending tax cuts for the wealthiest in order to outsource jobs to India and China is something which they seem to whole-heartedly support; the reason being that American workers are just too danged expensive!



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Catherine

posted December 7, 2010 at 8:23 pm

Catherine

posted December 7, 2010 at 8:27 pm


Salvation is before physical death…
today.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 8, 2010 at 4:37 am


HG says:
Hi Steve, on behalf of the “triad of evil”, [sic] welcome, it’s always good to see another voice of reason.
Mr. Incredible says:
But not of wisdom.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, in Whom we are more than conquerors!

posted December 8, 2010 at 4:45 am


JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS, TROUNCING GIANTS !

HG says:
(Still haven’t been able to pry out whether one must believe in Jesus prior to death in order to enter Heaven, or if one is allowed to wait until after death to decide).
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s explained sufficiently in the Word of God.
However, you’re not interested in an answer that you’ve rejected already anyway.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name – the Name above ALL names!

posted December 8, 2010 at 4:50 am


Notice that HG and Steve resort only to accusations and put-downs. Their accusations and put-downs are intended to cover up the inadequacies of what they write; it’s a distraction from their own shortcomings. Oh, well.

JESUS CHRIST — THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE — THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER !



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 8, 2010 at 11:23 am


Steve
…be rich (you’ll have a much harder time making it into heaven)…
Mr. Incredible says:
Be sure to give us the line of scriptural thought that proves that.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 8, 2010 at 11:27 am


Steve says:
…be rich (you’ll have a much harder time making it into heaven)…
Mr. Incredible says:
If I were Rich…or HG, or Belial Boris, or you…I wouldn’t make it to Heaven at all.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 8, 2010 at 11:47 am


Jay,
As you and we can plainly see from at least their most recent posts, there’s nothing serious to consider here from the atheists. It’s really pathetic that they can offer nothing constructive. It’s all destructive, nothing positive.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXh7JR9oKVE



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 8, 2010 at 2:15 pm


HG says:
(Still haven’t been able to pry out whether one must believe in Jesus prior to death in order to enter Heaven, or if one is allowed to wait until after death to decide).
Mr. Incredible asks:
Why do you insist on explanations and answers that you have conditioned and precluded yourself from accepting?
Why do you insist on information you won’t understand, given that you have no experience with/in God and Christ?



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Steve

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:11 am


Oh Mr Incredible,
You are just so much fun! Remember, I used to be one of you – I can quote scripture (I take that back, I was a Christian, not one of what ever it is you are). At this point though, I regard it to be more a work of fiction, perhaps a historical novel.
the verse you seek has something to do with threading a camel through the eye of a needle. Maybe check (you do have a bible, don’t you) Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25, and Luke 18:24-25. Interpret through thine own eyes. I know Robert H. Schuller did. I love his interpretation. Please bore me with yours!
That’s it for today’s scripture lesson.
Steve



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Steve

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:22 am


Hi HG,
thanks for the welcome. I’m a pretty regular reader of this column of Jabs between Dr. Lynn and Mr. Sekulow. I just don’t have time to post very often.
As I wrote to Dr. Lynn, it’s never been a debate between the two of them about the same issue, and Jay’s supporters resort to the same techniques he does, mainly shout down and insult your opponent. Quite frankly, it boring. It could get dangerous – if these people ever get out from behind their keyboards, the sky god they represent has a very good history of eliciting murder, torture, war, rape, incest and a few other nasties that skip my brain for the moment from his followers.
Unfortunately some of them are out there, preparing to start WWIII so their deity will come. Maybe May 21, 2011 the whole lot of them will disappear and it will take a while for their ranks to regrow – and we’ll have a few years of sanity (not that will be any better, aethiests and peoples of all religions have found equal vigor in killing, torturing, etc. It’s just these pesky christians are in my backyard, and that pisses me off.
Mr Incredible should have a field day with this post, lots of sentences to take out of context (that is what christians do best, isn’t it?)
Best To You, HG
Steve



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 2:56 am


Steve says:
Oh Mr Incredible,
You are just so much fun!
Mr. Incredible asks:
You can’t find a woman? Go play homo smoochie-woochie with somebody else.
Steve says:
Remember, I used to be one of you…
Mr. Incredible says:
No, you didn’t.
Steve says:
… – I can quote scripture…
Mr. Incredible says:
So what? You can’t produce a line of scriptural thought, though, and neither can the Devil.
Steve says:
(I take that back, I was a Christian…
Mr. Incredible says:
No you weren’t. If you were, you’d still be cuz the love of God offered through His Son is stronger than what pulled you away. You rejected that love and went your own way. So, you couldn’t have been Christian.
Steve says:
…not one of what ever it is you are).
Mr. Incredible says:
We’re not surprised you don’t recognize me as a Christian. After all, you didn’t recognize that you weren’t Christian.
Steve says:
At this point though, I regard it to be more a work of fiction, perhaps a historical novel.
Mr. Incredible says:
So what?
We know that you’re trying to offend us. You cannot, though, cuz He Who is in us is stronger than he who is in the world.
Steve says:
the verse you seek…
Mr. Incredible says:
I don’t seek the verse. I already know it, and, based on a Scripture upon Scripture reading, it doesn’t say what YOU say it says.
Steve says:
… has something to do with threading a camel through the eye of a needle.
Steve says:
You don’t know???
Steve says:
Maybe check (you do have a bible, don’t you)…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Which one? “The Homosexual Revised Version Translation Correction of the Word of God”? No, I don’t.
Steve says:
Matthew 19:23-24, Mark 10:24-25, and Luke 18:24-25. Interpret through thine own eyes.
Mr. Incredible says:
You urge me to private interpretation. However, 2 Peter 1:20/2 Timothy 3:16. It is to be interpreted by other Scripture, namely 1 Timothy 6:10, which provides the clarity of Truth you miss and need but will reject. Not my prob.
Steve says:
I know Robert H. Schuller did. I love his interpretation.
Mr. Incredible says:
Of course you do. It suits YOUR interpretation which is without the help of 1 Timothy 6:10.
Steve says:
Please bore me with yours!
Mr. Incredible says:
We know you’re bored, and we don’t care cuz it doesn’t impact us, only YOU.
We also know that you seek no answers through your faux curiosity.
Anyway, 1 Timothy 6:10 is not MY interpretation, rather God’s through Christ. I merely recognize it. Recognizing it, it’s my duty to my love for God and His Christ to report it. Too bad you can’t receive it, but, again, that’s not MY prob. Of course, you don’t get that, either; but those who are and have been born again, eagerness for Him burning in them like a fire, DO understand it.
Steve says:
Mr Incredible should have a field day with this post, lots of sentences to take out of context…
Mr. Incredible says:
I take nothing outta context.
When I pick apart an argument, as I have yours, I respond to those elements that need my response, and those elements are not taken outta their meaning. Those elements I blast don’t need the rest of their statements for meaning, and they stand on their own. I find it easier to answer elements of arguments, just for clarity. You don’t like that. That’s too bad.
So, I haven’t changed any meaning of what you have written.
We know you’re gonna have a hard time with that, too.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 3:08 am


For example, if somebody says, “I notice that the sky is blue,” I need not quote the entire statement, “I notice that the sky is blue.” “I notice that” is not at issue. It’s necessary only that I answer the assertion, “The sky is blue,” if I take some issue with that which I don’t, unless, like Steve, I throw down a case of 40s and don’t know what I’m doing, nor what planet I’m on. [Of course, I don’t drink alcohol but once every 6 months, or so, and it’s only one bottle of beer, nursed. I wouldn’t be anywhere near as good a bar customer as Steve appears to be].



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 6:01 am


For example, if somebody says, “I notice that the sky is blue,” I need not quote the entire statement, “I notice that the sky is blue.” “I notice that” is not at issue. It’s necessary only that I answer the assertion, “The sky is blue,” if I take some issue with that which I don’t, unless, like Steve, I throw back a case of 40s and don’t know what I’m doing, nor what planet I’m on. [Of course, I don’t drink alcohol but once every 6 months, or so, and it’s only one bottle of beer, nursed. I wouldn’t be anywhere near as good a bar customer as Steve appears to be].



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 6:02 am


I hate this Beliefnet software.



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Catherine

posted December 9, 2010 at 6:11 am

Steve

posted December 9, 2010 at 12:14 pm


Mr. Incredible,
Isn’t hate one of those no no’s? That bottle of beer seals it, dude.
You’r with me. Quit your whining, stand up and say “I’m an asshole, and I don’t have to hide behind a fictitious deity to defend myself. I am who I am!”
And my brother, 1 Timothy 6 does not trump your deity’s words. The man was told what to do, and what the consequences of wealth are.
be well, slime brother!
Steve



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Your Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:30 pm


hopefully you don’t interfere with my personal business and make it your own without my approval….



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:41 pm


Steve says:
Mr. Incredible,
Isn’t hate one of those no no’s?
Mr. Incredible says:
No. Beliefnet software is not my brother.
Steve says:
That bottle of beer seals it, dude.
Mr. Incredible says:
How many have you had???
Steve says:
You’r [sic] with me.
Mr. Incredible says:
Uhhhh, not quite. I happen to be with God and His Son, and, so, I can’t/won’t be with you.
Steve says:
Quit your whining…
Mr. Incredible says:
Quit your “wining.”
Steve says:
…stand up…
Mr. Incredible says:
Already done. I stand up to YOU.
Steve says:
…and say “I’m an asshole…”
Mr. Incredible says:
Ok. Have it YOUR way; you’re an asshole. Now what?
Steve says:
“…and I don’t have to hide behind a fictitious deity to defend myself…”
Mr. Incredible says:
I cannot say what is not true even though YOU can. The LORD is MY Shepherd, not YOU.
Steve says:
“…I am who I am!”
Mr. Incredible says:
I am WHOSE I am — that is, Christ’s.
Steve says:
And my brother…
Mr. Incredible says:
Judging from you comments, I’m not your brother.
Steve says:
…1 Timothy 6 does not trump your deity’s words.
Mr. Incredible says:
It wouldn’t, and I don’t claim that it does. 1 Timothy 6:10 IS His Words, and 1 Timothy 6:10 is a Scripture upon Scripture reference that makes the “rich man” verse[s] clear.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Devil likes also to take only one verse and make that Christ’s doctrine. However, the first element of Holy Spirit interpretation is Scripture upon Scripture, which the Devil cannot do, and 1 Timothy 6:10 supports the interpretation of the “rich Man” verse[s] as meaning that the rich man won’t go to Heaven if his riches “have” him, rather than his “having” his riches. We know you don’t understand that. It’s not OUR prob.
Steve says:
The man was told what to do…
Mr. Incredible asks:
In the Scripture upon Scripture context of the “love of money” and what effect such “love” has on him.
We know you don’t/won’t understand this, and it’s the tipoff that you weren’t Christian.
Steve says:
…and what the consequences of wealth are.
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s not the consequences of his wealth, per se. It’s the consequences of letting his wealth hold sway over him. God wants me to have wealth; He doesn’t want wealth to have me cuz He knows the effect it would have.
Again, we know you don’t get it. It’s a problem for us ONLY if WE don’t get it.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:46 pm


Steve asks:
Isn’t hate one of those no no’s?
Mr. Incredible asks:
Is it???
Well, God hates certain things.
If God hates, may I??? Do I follow Him, or you??? I follow Him, if you don’t mind…and even if you do. The LORD is my Shepherd, not you!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 1:53 pm


Steve,
You’re making a fool of yourself. Or should I say that you’re still making a fool of yourself.
I know much more about the Word of God than you do. That’s obvious.
Cut your losses and go play middle-of-the-night, cheap-motel-room-rendevous with Boris, HG and Rich.



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Darlene S.

posted December 9, 2010 at 2:02 pm


Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus,
I am new to this site but I took the time to read the comments. I have to say that as a Christian I am appalled at your comments. They are full of hate and quite mean spirited. You do not represent me or the good Christians that I know.
Your last comment suggests that 3 posters will rendevous in a hotel. I think you need to look into yourself to try and understand why you would even say such a thing. Please sit down with your pastor and get some guidance.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 2:07 pm


Steve says:
The man was told what to do…
Mr. Incredible asks:
Ok, what is the meaning of what he was told to do? If 1 Timothy 6:10 is not the context, what is?
Not that God lets you instruct us, but so you can confirm for us that you, as all secularists, try privately to interpret Scripture, and, as all secularists, fail miserably.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name above ALL names!

posted December 9, 2010 at 2:16 pm


Darlene S. says:
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus,
I have to say that as a Christian I am appalled at your comments. They are full of hate and quite mean spirited.
Mr. Incredible says:
They are not, though you interpret them that way.
Darlene S. says:
You do not represent me or [sic] the good Christians that I know.
Mr. Incredible says:
I was never a candidate for election to that post.
Darlene S. says:
Your last comment suggests that 3 posters will rendevous in a hotel.
Mr. Incredible says:
Four. And it’s a motel, not a hotel.
Darlene S. says:
I think you need to look into yourself to try and understand why you would even say such a thing.
Mr. Incredible says:
I already understand it, and you won’t agree. Oh, well.
Darlene S. says:
Please sit down with your pastor and get some guidance.
Mr. Incredible says:
My guidance comes from God, through Christ, and I admit that my sarcastic comments are mine, not His. Sarcasm is a wonderful part of speech.
The heathen are happy that you take their side.



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Catherine

posted December 9, 2010 at 2:48 pm


Mr. I,
Darlene is not taking “their side” and nor do I, but I do agree with her comments. Don’t allow others to provoke you, where your flesh wants to lash out in return.
Stand on higher ground with love. :)
“Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.” -Ephesians 4:29
Shalom



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 3:31 pm


Catherine,
I’m not picking a fight with you by saying this, but in this thread, look at your post 3 December, 1059p, and in the thread, “President Obama: Does He Get It?” 8 November 1207a.
Now, while my “cheap motel” comment may be a mite over the top to some, I’m not alone in making snide, sarcastic comments in response to the devilish. You and I aren’t the only ones, either; but I get your point.
However, sometimes, you gotta step on toes to get somebody’s attention, even when there’s no chance of getting their attention, as is the case with these atheist fools.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 3:47 pm


The responsible thing for a Christian to do is look beyond to the Truth of what one says, not being hindered by and marching around “perception mountains.” Why focus on the perceptions, letting them stand in the way of getting to the Truth of what one says?
My father doesn’t watch T.D. Jakes [I don’t, either] cuz my father says Jakes yells too much. He could go on to say that the yelling is not Christian, that Jakes is not as gentle as he should be and that the yelling keeps him [my father] from the Truth of what Jakes says; but that would not be true. That the yelling, to my father, hinders him is not the fault of the yelling, rather of my father who lets his “perception mountain” stand in his way. My father hinders himself, in other words, and he cannot, in that condition of spirit, get to the Truth of what Jakes is saying. So, it would be more beneficial to draw out from what he hears the Truth of God, through Christ, to see beyond the perceptions and focus on, again, the Truth.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 9, 2010 at 3:54 pm


So, wouldn’t it be more beneficial to draw me out on the Truth of God’s Word than to focus on such petty offenses as the atheists do? Focusing on the Word of Truth is more important than focusing on communication style, I would think. It woulda been more beneficial, for example, to talk more about Steve’s gross, scriptural error.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 4:00 pm


Also, Darlene coulda handled it much better, not, in her first communication with me, using such discourteous tones and phrasing of condemnation. She coulda asked first about the comment she says she finds sooo offensive. Instead, she coulda drawn me out on the more scriptural statements, and we coulda had a nice conversation about that. But no.
So, nobody is without fault, I guess.



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Catherine

posted December 9, 2010 at 4:17 pm


Dude..chill out.
I don’t desire to talk about Steve’s comments.
I don’t expect accurate scriptural interpretation from Steve.
Steve needs the truth with love.



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Darlene S.

posted December 9, 2010 at 7:33 pm


Catherine,
Thank you for your supportive comments. I didn’t want to pick a fight with Mr. Incredible but I think he wants one. I really don’t. I have seen this too many time in study group. Many people become so sure of their interpretation of a verse that they sometimes become rude and even angry. Only Jesus can know exactly what God meant when he gave us his Word. I wish I could say I know everything but I don’t. I can only spend my time here learning what I can.
Three weeks ago we had a bad scene in our study group. The next week a member brought in James 2-12 and 2-13 for discussion and I am glad he did.
**So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy. Mercy triumphs over judgment.**
We talked about it and our lesson was accepted by all. We may make judgments but what God really wants from us is our mercy and kind behavior. It is not right to be angry with someone because their view of a verse is different. The final authority on all things is God anyway so we should focus on the way Jesus told us to behave. Another way to say it is that when the day comes to be graded by God, he will pay more attention to the times we behaved with kindness and charity and he won’t care if we were the world’s most clever Bible scholar.



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Catherine

posted December 9, 2010 at 9:52 pm


Darlene,
I completely agree with your comments. Mercy, kindness, and love are the most important qualities/actions.
The Lord tests/grades the condition of the heart.
I know I fall short on many days, but I am thankful that I serve a God who is full of compassion and grace, and faithful and just to forgive me. The Love of Christ Never Fails. :)



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 9, 2010 at 10:54 pm


Oh, well. To each his own.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 3:44 am


If one says that no one knows everything, how does that person know when somebody knows something? It’s useless to study the Word when one denies that no one can know more than another cuz one will never receive what that person knows.
The fact is that God gave us, through His Word, “all things” to know. To say that one cannot know what He gave us is to deny His power.
One doesn’t have-ta know everything to know something.
When Jesus got angry with the Pharisees AND called names, did He love them? Of course He did, but the Pharisees, no doubt, thought that He didn’t love them just cuz He got mad at them and called names; but just cuz they get mad at Him didn’t sto Him from giving them the Word of God. Now THAT’s biblical “love.”
Biblical “love” does not mean that we withhold. It means that we say what needs to be said of the Word, according to the Word. Biblical “love” is unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, as much concern about others’ Salvation as you have for your own. That is precisely what Jesus did; He gave the Word of God, “love” through the giving of the Word cuz getting His Message and receiving it is the most important thing. His concern for the Salvation of Man was most important, and His response was to give the Word to that end.
Those who don’t repent get no mercy from God. They must receive Him by being born again. What mercy am I supposed to give atheists? Does God give them mercy, or does He offer Him? If they reject Him, is His mercy effective on them? No.
When I fo’give, is it for them, or for me? If it’s fo’ them, doesn’t that enable them to continue in sin? What happens if they get the idea that my fo’giving them is meant to say that what they do is ok? What happ;ens if my fo’giveness is enabling? No, fo’giveness is fo’ me so that I’m not bogged down, separated from God in resentment.
But what is it that I must fo’give the atheist for? He thinks he does nothing wrong, and, so, to him, there’s nothing to fo’give. So, which is it?
So many questions. So little time.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 9:10 am


The mercy of God extends so far beyond what you or I could EVER comprehend.
When any person rejects God, the simple fact that God continues to allow him to exist on this earth taking ~20 breaths per minute shows the evidence of his mercy upon man.
We should forgive, because Christ forgave us.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 10:54 am


He is not the God of death.
What is the nature of our fo’giveness of somebody? Is it enablement? Who is enabled? The sinner, to sin? The sinner may perceive it so. So, it must be something else cuz those who are born again cannot be seen to enable sin.
Fo’giveness is for the one who fo’gives so that his resentment doesn’t take his mind and heart off God. One may be angry and sin not.
God, through Christ, does not fo’give the unrepentant. Fo’giveness is offered and the disobedient accept what they think is fo’giveness, thinking that they may go on doing what they wanna do. It is not so. Those who are born again have access to that fo’giveness.
That God “allows” somebody to live in the physical is not evidence of His mercy. Christ is the evidence of His mercy. The Inheritance, the Offer of Reconciliation is the evidence of His mercy. The disobedient don’t have access to His mercy, nor His Inheritance, nor His offer of Reconciliation, cuz they reject Him. He does not treat the disobedient as He treats the obedient. The benefits of His mercy are bestowed upon the obedient. The disobedient, aimless, wander and suffer without His mercy. The disobedient march around their “perception mountains,” never even in sight of the Truth, though they think their perceptions are Truth. It is the condition of the heart of the disobedient which hinders them.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 11:21 am


The question is not whether He loves us. The proof is John 3:16 [KJV]. The question is whether we love Him. What’s the proof of THAT? It should be to do what Jesus did — that is, give the Word, the Message of God’s Offer of Reconciliation cuz we should have the same purpose as God, and for the same reason — that is, unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for THEIR Salvation as we have for our own.
Those who claim to be homosexual say that God loves everybody, including them, and that’s true; but it ain’t the question. Those who claim to be homosexual don’t truly love God, and THAT is the issue. That they do what God says He detests shows that they do not love Him.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 11:29 am


God showed us His love by giving His Word to us. John 3:16 is just one-a the proofs alongside Genesis 1:3 [“Light be!”].
Those who are born again give His love by giving His Word [“Light be!”], just as Jesus, the Light of the world Who says that those who are born again are “lights of the world,” did. We do not give His love by giving our own words. Our own words do not heal [John 15:3 [KJV]]. Our own words are not Light. Filthy rags smear, not clean. So, to give God’s love is to give His Word [of love].



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Darlene S.

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:12 pm


Mr. Incredible,
Your words have been pretty upsetting to me. My husband said to simply pay no attention to you. I even showed this page to my father-in-law. He pointed out that in your comment this morning you asked why you should forgive an atheist. What dad said to me was important enough that I felt it right to repeat it to you. He wondered who you think you are. It is not up to you to forgive an atheist, it is for God alone. He said that you are so caught up in being clever that you have forgotten what it means to be a Christian. You say a lot of things and talk about a lot of things you know from the Bible but the only thing I hear you say is that you are better and smarter than everyone. I am writing because I am fearful that you turn people away from the one truth that will save them by being so arrogant. Why would anyone want to be a Christian when all you can do is act superior? Jesus teaches us humility and to walk away from vanity.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:28 pm


I reject your husband, your father-in-law and your judgment. Thanks for giving it to me, but I don’t have power over your emotions, nor do I want it.
If fo’giveness is for God alone, then Catherine must be wrong. Which is it?
I didn’t ask “Why should I fo’give an atheist?”
I am not WHO I think I am. I am WHOSE I am.
I know what it means to be Christian.
What you hear is according to YOUR perceptions.
I don’t have the power to turn anybody away from Truth.
“Acting superior” is a matter of your perception.
Dang those “perception mountains”!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:34 pm


There are Christians who are in love with what they think is their own “holiness.” They believe that this gives them special latitude to accuse according to their own understanding from private interpretation.
I don’t testify of myself, rather of God and His Christ, and, so, I don’t testify from a position of vanity.



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Steve

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:39 pm


Hi Mr. Incredible,
God came to me last night as a burning ember in my fireplace. Sorry that there is no one to corroborate that story, but Moses didn’t have any witnesses either. He said he was mighty proud of his warrior disciple, Mr. Incredible, and he had a special place under one his right hands reserved for you. (oops, wrong culture, gender and god, sorry about that).
Dude, this isn’t about debating the scriptures, it’s about the violence, vitriolic hatred, psychological terror and oppression that folks like Jay and yourself are trying to inflict on the United States and the world. He just has a bit more clout than you, and so deserves most of the attention.
As long as you continue to be the mighty keyboard warrior that you currently are, exercising the first amendment rights that you would strip from the rest of us, there is little to fear from you.
Jay, on the other hand, represents a significant threat to our American way of life. I’ll be signing off now. He needs my attention, not you. Feel free to have the last word.
Oh, you are not using sarcasm. You are using libel, bullying and insults.
Live Well,
Steve



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Steve

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:40 pm


Hi Mr. Incredible,
God came to me last night as a burning ember in my fireplace. Sorry that there is no one to corroborate that story, but Moses didn’t have any witnesses either. He said he was mighty proud of his warrior disciple, Mr. Incredible, and he had a special place under one his right hands reserved for you. (oops, wrong culture, gender and god, sorry about that).
Dude, this isn’t about debating the scriptures, it’s about the violence, vitriolic hatred, psychological terror and oppression that folks like Jay and yourself are trying to inflict on the United States and the world. He just has a bit more clout than you, and so deserves most of the attention.
As long as you continue to be the mighty keyboard warrior that you currently are, exercising the first amendment rights that you would strip from the rest of us, there is little to fear from you.
Jay, on the other hand, represents a significant threat to our American way of life. I’ll be signing off now. He needs my attention, not you. Feel free to have the last word.
Oh, you are not using sarcasm. You are using libel, bullying and insults.
Live Well,
Steve



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:45 pm


I don’t have the power over Gods’ Power, through Christ, to turn people away from God. God, through Christ, is more powerful than I am, and those who claim that I turn them away from God are, in effect, saying that I am more powerful, in their lives, than God. Of course, that’s ridiculous.
And, so, if someone claims that my words upset them, they are saying that I have more power over them than God, through Christ. Again, ridiculous.
I don’t claim any such power; but many give me that power. Go figure.
If I have such power, why can’t I make more people vote Conservative?!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:47 pm


Steve,
You gotta think what you think you gotta think.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:51 pm


Steve,
I don’t pay any more attention to you, or HG, or Rich, than I do the Devil.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 12:58 pm


Steve says:
God came to me last night as a burning ember in my fireplace.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Which “god”? Certainly not the God WE know.
Steve says:
Sorry that there is no one to corroborate that story…
Mr. Incredible says:
Cuz it ain’t true.
Steve says:
…but Moses didn’t have any witnesses either.
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that he had Witnesses: God the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit, and after-the-fact witnesses.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 1:22 pm


It’s not necessary for, nor required of, a person to play ignorant of the Knowledge he has, and to share that knowledge.
To play ignorant of the Knowledge of God is to prefer to please the world, not Him, to disobey His Command to spread the Word, the lack of which destroys.
The Word of God says that those who have His Knowledge should have confidence in that Knowledge, to go boldly to the Throne of God.
The Lord is my Shepherd, not the world.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:12 pm


For obvious reasons, one should never place the name Jay and Mr. Incredible in the same sentence. I completely oppose ALL, 100%, of Steve’s comments, and let’s pray there is Godly action behind every keyboard.
Mr. I,
Please, pls–get a grip.
This may hurt, but I truly say this in love: If I were an unbeliever, and came across your comments and judgments, I would not want ANYTHING to do with Christianity. The world already makes me feel alone,ashamed, abandoned, and cold…
It’s like the scripture in 1 Corinthians 13:1-3 that talks about:
“13:1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging symbol.”
13:2 “And if I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.”
13:3 “And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I deliver my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.”
I don’t say this to hurt your feelings, but PLEASE listen. People are drawn to Christ out of love, and acceptance of where they are. Let GOD be the One to take them to where they need to be.
The revelation and acceptance of Christ brings salvation to all. We are sinners saved by Grace. The LOVE and Grace in which none of us deserve, but yet, by Jesus’ blood, we are made new.
Before Christ, you and I were no better than Steve or anyone else.
The noise will drive people away.
Pray for Steve, HG, Rich, and Boris without the clanging symbol.
Maranatha.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:27 pm


I don’t have the power to drive anybody any way. People make their own decisions and are responsible for them.
So, if the power of God, through Christ, is strong in them, they will not turn away, no matter what.
If the power of God is weak in them, e.g. atheists, they will turn away and blame somebody else.
Everbody gots the Right to choose.
God gave the Light outta love. He gave the Word outta love. Those who are born again give His Word Which is love. Giving the Word is THE act of love no matter how I feel about a person. This love is unselfish concern for the Salvation of others. It is the kinda love Jesus expressed, and it is not worldly love. I can do no less.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:29 pm


By the way, Catherine, you cannot hurt my feelings.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:37 pm


Repentance is key to Salvation. No one is saved without repentance.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:43 pm


I would never set out to hurt your feelings–
I don’t want that.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SExJ9od-0zQ
Great is Love.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:48 pm


There are those who say, it appears, that we should keep quiet and let God do the talking, leading people where He wants.
What is His Word, if not His talking? And what about doing what the Word says — that is, spread the Word Who is good for correction, etc.
God leads through His Word, and it is up to those who are born again to bring the Word of God to the world, whether it wants Him, or not, whether the world gets mad, or not. Their feelings are not the standard. I don’t reneg on my commitment to give the world the Word just cuz somebody gets mad at me; after all, is their getting mad at me more powerful than God, through Christ? No. Emphatically.
No one is required to believe it. Whether they do doesn’t impact MY Salvation.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 2:51 pm


It doesn’t matter whether you set out to hurt my feelings, or not. You cannot hurt my feelings cuz the love and Salvation of God, through Christ, is stronger than that and renders useless any incoming darts before they get to me.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 3:05 pm

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 3:06 pm


Anywho…
So, I’d rather lose a friend who gets mad at me after giving him the Truth than to deny the Truth and keep/win his friendship. This is my M.O. here. It was Jesus’ M.O. then.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 10, 2010 at 3:09 pm


The Pharisees were real mad at Jesus. That didn’t stop Him.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 3:47 pm


The Pharisees were full of superiority, arrogance, legalism and judgment; therefore, missing the beauty, simplicity, and most important, and especially–The Love of Christ.



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Your Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 5:29 pm


Very true, it is just that the Pharisees of ancient times still exist today in the character of human beings… and I see it almost everytime I go to church, and I hear it on t.v. the same philosophies….. people that think that they are better then the next Christian out there and they spew it like vomit… Like they are somehow more qualified then the next to exhibit God in their life. C



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Your Name

posted December 10, 2010 at 5:32 pm


I am talking to the fellow professing Christian’s out there, if your going to say your a Christian be humble about it, and don’t act like your sin is better then the next, for we still have our flesh to contend with each and everyday we are on this planet as human beings..C



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HG

posted December 10, 2010 at 6:24 pm


Steve, there has been more discussion about actual belief’s here lately, and that’s generally a good thing, even with such a majority of it being from the dingus. His responses to you have been very predictable–I had his response “Ok. Have it YOUR way; you’re an asshole” written before he did! (Does that mean I can see the future?) For someone who doesn’t “pay any more attention to you, or HG, or Rich, than I do the Devil” he certainly has typed off reams in response!
Anyway, perhaps YOU will answer one of my many unanswered questions–one being: Must one accept Jesus as The Savior and The Way into Heaven prior to dying, or can one wait until after death to decide whether He exists and is The Way, and still gain entry?



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Steve

posted December 10, 2010 at 7:48 pm


Hi HG,
I’m not really a YOU kind of guy, so my best answer to your question is that it’s a non-question. Kinda like asking if a tree falls in the forest and there was nobody to hear it, did it make a sound?
The way I read history,
1) there never was a “Jesus” – there may have been somebody named “Joshua ben Joseph,” so he’d be the one who would have to be accepted as saviour. Some scholars believe that was his title, and not his name.
2) We don’t know what level of consciousness one has after death. One of the poignant moments of my life occurred when I was 19, just after my (unsaved) father died. He had a heart attack and was unconscious for several hours before dying. My sister and I, both Evangelical Christians at the time, spent a considerable amount of time convincing ourselves that he became saved during the time he was unconscious. Ultimately, we don’t know.
3) A reader can extrapolate anything from the books and letters of the Bible, sufficient to prove anything about anything. For each supposed truth in the Bible, there is an equal and opposite truth. Hence the multiplicity of both Jewish and Christian denominations.
So, for the point of discussion only, assuming the words in the Bible are truth, they are correctly translated from language to language, that the Evangelical Protestant Christianity is the holder of the correct theologies, and we maintain corporeal integrity after we die:
My final answer is: It depends on which scriptures you quote, the base quantity on each side, and if any of them trump another.
best wishes,
Steve



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HG

posted December 10, 2010 at 8:42 pm


Steve, I was once a believer myself but was very early disenchanted by the holier than thou attitude of many people (and remain so). The fact that the instruction manual left by God is sorely lacking in detail does not escape my attention. I had been under the impression that a central part of belief was that one must accept Christ prior to death in order to gain entry to Heaven; though I understand there are some who believe in a limbo or purgatory–a sort of make-up test for those adjudged to have been in substandard compliance during life in matters of faith or deed. At any rate, the notion of having to “believe” prior to death seems unfair and uncertain at best–which would mean any “salvation” may achieved by coming to terms with God after death, and argues against those who profess an eternity of hell awaits non-believers passing from this Earth.
As for the level of consciousness after death, of course there has been no reliable report–though I have occasionally joined in speculation as to the possibility of the “sentient singularity” (other terms apply in Eastern philosophies). Thanks for taking the time to reply, best wishes.



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Catherine

posted December 10, 2010 at 10:51 pm


Steve,
I am very sorry about the loss of your Dad. That must have been horrible, especially at 19 years old.
I have spent my entire career in the ER, ICU and have worked too many codes. Many dead, and then resuscitated. Many resuscitated that just don’t make it.
I’ve seen my share of death, and also have cared for numerous unconscious patients, vent patients, and coma patients secondary to trauma, heart attacks, CVA etc..
One thing I can tell you is that the hearing is the very last thing to go. Unconscious or not. I have always encouraged family members to continue to talk to, and pray with their loved ones that are unresponsive, but alive. I am convinced they can hear, even if they can not verbally communicate. I have seen too much over the years to believe otherwise.
God is the only one that knows the heart and mind of a person. I have seen people cry out to the Lord on their death bed, and I am convinced that God also hears the people that are unable to speak, but cry out to Him in their mind.
God is able to do all things.
I do believe that a choice is made for Christ before our physical death occurs.
God desires our heart, not out of coercion, but out of love for Him.
The Holy Spirit knocks…and waits for you to open..



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Catherine

posted December 11, 2010 at 1:57 am


“I do believe that a choice is made for Christ before our physical death occurs.”
Clarification: I believe a choice is made by every man before his physical death to either accept or reject Jesus Christ.
I believe the spirit, heart, and mind of a man can repent, and call upon the Lord for salvation up until the time of his physical death (either verbal or nonverbal–God knows, and only God himself is the judge)
Through repentance, and acceptance of Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, we are sealed by His Blood. After our physical death, we are welcomed into His Eternal Kingdom; a Kingdom that has no end. That is God’s promise to us.
“For whosoever shall call upon the Name of the Lord shall be saved.” -Romans 10:13



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Catherine

posted December 11, 2010 at 2:17 am

Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 11, 2010 at 1:25 pm

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 11, 2010 at 1:31 pm


God knows the heart of men, and he tells us what that is: wicked. So, since He tells us, we know, too. I believe Him.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 11, 2010 at 1:41 pm


We know the hearts of men, not only cuz He tells us, but by their words. Death and life are in the power of the tongue — words. After all, out the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. Faith cometh by understanding. It could be any faith, even one’s own, whatever that faith is. THAT will be the abundance of that person’s heart, and we know it by what he speaks.
We know the abundance of God’s heart by His speakng, “Light be!” as one example.
We know the abundance of Christ’s heart by the Light He spoke/speaks.
Others know the abundance of the hearts of those who are born again by the what they speak. If it’s death, their hearts are full of death. If it’s Light/life, the abundance of their hearts is Light/life, and Jesus said that the Words He speaks are life, that it’s His Words that clean.
Therefore, we can, by the Standard of God’s Word — that is, in Righteousness — know what’s in another’s heart.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 11, 2010 at 2:15 pm


(Rev 3:20) Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
The key phrase is, “If any man hear my voice.”
Therefore, one who is born again opens the door ONLY AFTER hearing HIS voice. That presumes hearing which presumes listening which presumes a heart prepared for listening and being able to discern.
So, the order of operations is:
1. He comes.
2. He knocks.
3. He speaks.
4. You hear His voice.
5. You open the door.
You don’t open the door to a voice other than His. In order to know what voice it is and isn’t, you gotta know the Word of God Who tells you how to discern. Otherwise, you open the door to “the other one.”
The Devil is in the Church cuz too many Christians cannot discern.



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Jacob in Boise

posted December 11, 2010 at 4:15 pm


It is only through the Book of Mormon that a true relationship with Jesus can be established. Many think that a modern day witnessing of Jesus is sufficient to gain heaven, it is not.
I encourage everyone here to read the Book of Mormon, pray upon it and open your heart to what God will tell you. Without this, you are never to be saved.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 13, 2010 at 7:37 am


Jacob in Boise says:
It is only through the Book of Mormon that a true relationship with Jesus can be established.
Mr. Incredible aks:
Sooo, is the Book of Mormon another New Testament? Cuz, as Jesus died, He said, “It is finished.” And, now, here you come, saying that it was not. Soooo, which is it?
Jacob in Boise says:
Many think that a modern day witnessing of Jesus is sufficient to gain heaven, it is not.
Mr. Incredible aks:
It isn’t??? It’s what Jesus did, and what He tells us to do. Of course, one must be born again first.
Jacob in Boise says:
I encourage everyone here to read the Book of Mormon, pray upon it and open your heart to what God will tell you.
Mr. Incredible says:
He already told me, where He says that anybody who brings another gospel is “accursed.”
Jacob in Boise says:
Without this, you are never to be saved.
Mr. Incredible aks:
Who says?
I’m already save without the Book of Mormon. Now what?



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 13, 2010 at 7:53 am


So, where does Jesus tell us in the New Testament, in effect, “Oh! Wait a minute! I forgot something! Be right back with a Newer Testament”?



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 13, 2010 at 7:57 am


“Rightly dividing” the Word of God means discarding the Book of Mormon.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 13, 2010 at 8:22 am


Yes, Romans 10:13, but Psalm 145:18 cuz-a John 4:24 cuz-a John 6:63 cuz-a Proverbs 18:20-21 cuz-a Deuteronomy 30:19 cuz-a John 15:3.



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Mrl Incredible, in Jesus' name

posted December 13, 2010 at 8:25 am


Not only them, but also 1 John 5:14.



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Mr. Incredible, in the name of Jesus

posted December 13, 2010 at 8:44 am


One verse does not doctrine make.
In most cases, I can quote one verse, and those who are born again and knowing the Word will automatically connect that one verse to a Scripture upon Scripture support of it, Scripture upon Scripture being the authoritative interpretation of the Word. They will automatically understand the nature of the one verse.
Malicious atheists are not quite as endowed. They read the Word as they would an algebra book, or a newspaper. In so doing, they miss the answers to their questions to which they really want no answers; what they want, like the Devil in the Garden and with Jesus in the wild, is agument, in order to wear you down. They think one verse makes doctrine. That’s why they cannot come up with a line of scriptural thought. Neither can the Devil. However, those who are born again can, and they can fill in the blanks when one verse is given cuz they know the Word.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 13, 2010 at 8:50 am


This is why it’s important to know the Leviticus isn’t the only and final Word on what we now call “homosexuality.” That God detests homosexuality is supported by too much of Scripture to post here. It’s the Scripture upon Scripture interpretation that proves that God hates the iniquity that is homosexuality which arises from the sin nature, not the Godly nature.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 13, 2010 at 9:43 am


Jacob in Boise says:
It is only through the Book of Mormon that a true relationship with Jesus can be established.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Holy Sprit cannot tell you one thing and me another.



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Jacob In Boise

posted December 13, 2010 at 5:59 pm


Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus,
Your pride seals you to the same fate as an atheist. The new Covenant was brought forth by Joseph Smith and is there for you to accept. The only thing that stops you is your excessive pride in what you think you know.
I know in my heart and in my soul that you are wrong. God does too!
It is not too late to open your heart to the truth!



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Catherine

posted December 14, 2010 at 1:41 am


Jacob,
There is only One Truth.
The Truth is, Joseph Smith was a false prophet, and he is dead.
Jesus Christ is risen.
There is really no gentle way to put this, except to say that
the book of mormon is a lie, as there is no “other” valid testament of Jesus Christ, other than God’s Word, The Holy Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.
“Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” -John 14:6



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Catherine

posted December 14, 2010 at 1:59 am


THE FALSE PROPHECIES OF JOSEPH SMITH
Remember, in the light of the following list, that according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22, it only takes one false prophecy to make a prophet false, just as it only takes one murder to make a person a murderer. As you read the many false prophecies of Joseph Smith, keep this Biblical teaching in mind.
1) THE ABRIDGEMENT OF D&C 137.
Although there are actually dozens of false prophecies we could begin with, we thought it might be appropriate to begin with one that has come to newfound prominence in recent years. In 1976, the 137th section of Doctrine & Covenants (D&C) was submitted to the general conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints for a vote to be “sustained” as scripture. It is a narrative of a vision supposedly seen by Joseph Smith in Kirtland, OH in 1836.
What the members who voted on this new addition to scripture were not told by “the Brethren,” is that whole paragraphs (216 words) of the actual revelation as recorded in The History of the Church had been conveniently left out of the version to be included in the D&C. The reason for these omissions was that four obviously false prophecies were contained in the part of the revelation that was censored out. These were prophecies so obviously false that even the average LDS reader would pick them up. Therefore, they went down the “black hole” of Mormon history.
What exactly were in these missing parts? Well, if you go to the official history of the LDS church published by the church’s own publishing company, you will be easily able to find the missing prophecies. Here is what is not in the new D&C 137:
[Joseph Smith:] “….I saw the Twelve Apostles of the Lamb, who are now upon the earth, who hold the keys of this last ministry, in foreign lands, standing together in a circle, much fatigued, with their clothes tattered and their feet swollen, with their eyes cast downward, and Jesus standing in their midst, and they did not behold him. The Saviour looked upon them and wept.
I also beheld Elder M’Lellin in the south, standing upon a hill, surrounded by a vast multitude, preaching to them, and a lame man standing before him supported by his crutches; he threw them down at his word and leaped as a hart, by the mighty power of God.
Also, I saw Elder Brigham Young standing in a strange land, in the far south and west, in a desert place, upon a rock in the midst of a bout a dozen men of color, who appeared hostile. He was preaching to them in their own tongue, and the angel of God standing above his head with a drawn sword in his hand, protecting him, but he did not see it.
And I finally saw the Twelve in the celestial kingdom of God. I also beheld the redemption of Zion and many things which the tongue of man cannot describe in full”
Now, if this were true, it was a truly inspiring and wonderful declaration! Unfortunately, for the LDS faithful, a short look at the official history of the church reveals the false prophecies contained therein.
First of all, Smith claimed to see his (original LDS) Twelve apostles all in the celestial kingdom. This is difficult to imagine, since there was already division between Smith and the majority of the Apostles, beginning with discord in Kirtland, Ohio. The first portion of the “missing words” shows his less than subtle rebuke of their resistance to his will. “…fatigued….tattered…eyes cast downward….The Saviour looked upon them and wept.” Smith was calling them to get into line and submit themselves to his full authority. That’s the carrot offered in the last portion, “I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God.”
However, his “thus saith the Lord” must have had little effect on them, since at least seven of the twelve under discussion were soon excommunicated or apostatized from the church: John F. Boynton & Luke S. Johnson (1837), Lyman Johnson (1838), William E. M’Lellin (c.1838), Thomas B. Marsh & Orson Hyde (1838), and William Smith (1845)
How could they have ever attained the celestial kingdom under those conditions? They couldn’t! They were not only accursed by their very acts of apostasy or excommunication, but fell victim to the LDS Church’s own scriptural denunciation. D&C 84.40-41 clearly states:
“Therefore, all those who receive the priesthood, receive this oath and covenant of my father, which he cannot break, neither can it be moved. But whoso breaketh this covenant after he hath received it, and altogether turneth there-from, shall not have forgiveness of sins in this world nor in the world to come.”
Although a few of these men later returned to the church, none of them were even close to the standards necessary for attainment of that highest degree of glory. The majority remained apart for life. Therefore, the prophetic utterance, “I finally saw the Twelve in the Celestial Kingdom of God.” was obviously false. It would have been false even if only one Apostle remained outside the fold.
Second, the vision of M’Lellin preaching and working miracles in the south never came true because he apostatized from the church without ever doing it! (See above).
Third, Although Brigham Young did bring the Mormons west and was a great colonizer and orator, the vision of Brigham Young preaching to “men of color” in their own language, in some strange and faraway place in the southwest never took place either, or at least there is no trace of it in the very detailed records and diaries concerning his reign as prophet.
Finally, “Zion” (Independence, MO.) was never redeemed, has never been redeemed in the 150+ years since the prophecy was made. (See below, for more on Zion). Is it any wonder that the Brethren chose to remove whole chunks of this “inspired” revelation? Four false prophecies for the price of one!
2) THE BUILDING OF THE NEW TEMPLE.
In D&C 84 (esp. vs.2-5, 31, 114-115), Smith prophesied in 1832 that a temple would be built by the generation then living in Independence, MO. during THAT generation. Allowing the widest possible latitude of 100 years for a generation, that still leaves the prophecy unfulfilled over 50 years late!
There still is no temple in Independence; although one is being commenced by the RLDS Church, a splinter group that separated from the main branch of Mormonism, that the LDS church contends is a false cult! Not only that, the temple lot that Joseph Smith dedicated as the “only true site” has been owned for generations by a third Mormon splinter sect; and the Utah Mormons couldn’t build a temple there if they wanted to!
3) THE NAUVOO HOUSE.
In D&C 124.56-60, Smith prophesied that the Nauvoo House in Nauvoo, IL. would be in his family forever (1841). It did not remain in his family, and is not owned by them today. This makes for a very false prophecy.
4) OLD TESTAMENT PROPHECIES.
In the Pearl of Great Price (PGP), Joseph Smith-History (JSH) 1.40-41, (1823) Smith claimed that the angel Moroni told him that the prophecies in Isaiah 11 were “about to be fulfilled,” and that those in Joel 2 were “soon to be” fulfilled. More than 165 years have passed and that interpretation of prophecy has not yet come to pass. Those prophecies certainly will be fulfilled, but Joseph Smith and his angel sure got their dates wrong!
5) CONVERSION OF THE INDIAN PEOPLES.
In D&C 3.3 (1828) it says, “Remember, that it is not the work of God that is frustrated, but the work of men.” This verse is considered sacred scripture by Mormons; and that means that Mormons, logically, must apply it to their history and Joseph Smith’s prophecies. If Smith’s prophecies were frustrated, then those prophecies were the work of men, not of God!
D&C 3.16-20 says that the Lamanites (Indians) will be converted. For a century and a half, the LDS missionaries have been trying to convert their “Lamanite brothers” and have not done so. The vast majority of Indians are not Mormons, and most of the few who become LDS turn inactive. This has obviously not been fulfilled, after many years and spending vast amounts of money on programs to convert Indians.
6) WHITE AND DELIGHTSOME INDIANS.
Speaking of the Lamanites, the Book of Mormon (BOM) contains a prophecy about them that can easily be put to the test. 2 Nephi 30.6 prophesies that the Indians who converted would turn “white and delightsome” a few generations after joining the church. This is what is written in the original, handwritten manuscript of 2 Nephi 30. It is in the original 1830 edition of the Book of Mormon.
However, in 1840, Joseph Smith, evidently thinking to correct the “most correct book ever written,” ordered the phrase changed to “pure and delightsome.” Then later, Brigham Young ordered it changed back to “white and delightsome.” Then in 1981, it was again changed back to “pure and delightsome”, even though the correction does not clean up the parts of the BOM where they are turned from white and delightsome to “dark and loathsome.”
An honest reader would have to speculate that since over 160 years have passed (four Biblical generations) since Indians began joining the church that at least some of them would have to turned at least a little whiter. None of them has; and this is evidently why they changed the verse without so much as a word of explanation.
7) GATHERING TO ZION.
D&C 57.1-3 (1831) identifies Independence, MO as the center place of Zion, the gathering place of the saints. It is “the land of promise.” This revelation failed because, according to D&C 3.3 cited above, any work that is of God could not be frustrated. This “gathering” in Zion was really frustrated, because the Mormons tried to gather there and were physically driven out! To this day, there are few Mormons there; and actually many, many more RLDS members by far! If God was behind this revelation, then the Mormons could not have been driven out by men.
8) CONFOUND YOUR ENEMIES.
In D&C 71.6-10, the following prophecy was given: “For unto him that receiveth it shall be given more abundantly, even power. Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private; and inasmuch as you are faithful, their shame shall be made manifest. Wherefore, let them bring their strong reasons against the Lord. Verily, thus saith the Lord unto you, there is no weapon that is formed against you shall prosper; and if any man life his voice against you, he shall be confounded in mine own due time.”
Mormons have never fulfilled this prophecy, in fact, they shun it and constantly disobey it. There are over a hundred organized ministries to Mormons in the orthodox Christian church, just like ours; and no Mormon prophet or apostle has ever been willing to meet with us, in public or in private to “confound” us.
Indeed, very few Mormons of any sort will meet with us, unless they are private members who do not have the authorization of the leadership, most of whom already have doubts about the Church and want some straight answers.
We have been bringing our “strong reasons” against the false god of Mormonism now for decades and official Mormonism has refused to answer us, even though we have continually called for dialog. To the best of our knowledge, no minister to the Mormons has ever had his “shame” made manifest. If anything, there are more of us out there slugging away against the Zion Empire than ever before! These days, the Web is filed with e websites dealing with the doctrinal errors of Mormonism.
The “weapons” we have used against the LDS have been primarily the Bible, and also its own published material. It is evident that these weapons have indeed prospered against the Church. We are seeing literally thousands of Mormons leave the Church for Jesus, because of the impact of our Biblical witness. We have seen the convert rate per LDS missionary continue to drop. It is evident that our weapons are prospering and that the Church is adamantly refusing to obey its own prophecy and “confound” us. Instead, it is doing its best to pretend to ignore us. An altogether different thing!
9) THE EARTH SHALL SHAKE AND REEL AS A DRUNKEN MAN.
D&C 88.87 (1832) prophesies that “…not many days hence the earth shall tremble and reel as a drunken man; and the sun shall hide his face…and the moon shall be bathed in blood; and the stars shall become exceedingly angry, and shall cast themselves down as a fig that falleth from a fig tree.”
Now over 58,000 days have past (as of 1991) since that prophecy was given. By any reasonable standard, “not many days” could not be construed to be more than 58,000 days; and yet none of these things has occurred. This prophecy has obviously failed.
10) THE WORD OF WISDOM.
The Mormons are noted for their Word of Wisdom revelation that forbids them from drinking liquor, coffee or tea, or to smoke. This is in D&C 89. Many Mormons do not realize that there is also a prophecy in it in vs.18-21: “And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in the navel and marrow to their bones; and shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures; and shall run and not be weary and shall walk and not faint, and I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the destroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.”
The fact is that this promise is not working although most Mormons diligently keep this Word of Wisdom, they do not find any treasures of knowledge. They certainly run and become weary; and they certainly become faint at times from walking. In fact, many of the highest leaders of the LDS church (who presumably are keeping this commandment) are sick and dying of degenerative diseases. The entire First Presidency just a few years ago was so ill with blindness, Parkinson’s disease and cancer that a Third Counselor to the Prophet had to be called to take over.
The destroying angel certainly is not passing the Mormons by; as it did the children of Israel in the Passover. Mormons die just like everyone else. Although they try hard to keep the LDS god’s commandment, he does not seem to be keeping his end of the bargain, or else Joseph Smith is a false prophet!
11) ZION SHALL NOT BE MOVED.
D&C 101.17-20 (1833) prophesies: “Zion shall not be moved out of her place, notwithstanding her children are scattered. They that remain, and are pure in heart, shall return, and come to their inheritances, they and their children, with songs of everlasting joy, to build up the waste places of Zion. And all these things that the prophets might be fulfilled. And behold, there is none other place appointed than that which I have appointed; neither shall there be any other place appointed than that which I have appointed for the work of the gathering of my saints.”
First of all, the Mormons were driven out. Secondly, those who were driven out never returned with their children to come to their inheritances. Thirdly, a little over a decade after this, the “gathering” place of the saints was transplanted to Utah, even though the LDS god declared that “neither shall {future tense} there be any other place appointed.” Three strikes, and Joseph Smith is out!
12) THE UNITED ORDER.
In D&C 104.1 (1834) a prophecy is given concerning the LDS institution, the “United Order” (a theocratic, communistic method of distributing and controlling property and goods): “…I give unto you counsel and a commandment, concerning all the properties which belong to the order which I commanded to be organized and established, to be a united order, and an everlasting order for the benefit of my church, and for the salvation of men until I come…”
LDS history reveals that this “everlasting” order had to be disbanded soon after because it failed. It is obvious that today Mormons do not practice a communal approach to property. If anything, they are in favor of capitalism and against communism. This is one of the most blatantly false prophecies of Joseph Smith.
13) DESTROYER SENT FORTH.
A prophecy was given in D&C 105.13-15: (1834) “Therefore it is expedient in me that mine elders should wait for a little season, for the redemption of Zion. For behold, I do not require at their hands to fight the battles of Zion; for…I will fight your battles. Behold, the destroyer I have sent forth to destroy and lay waste your enemies; and not many years hence they shall not be left to pollute mine heritage, and to blaspheme my name upon the lands which I have consecrated for the gathering together of my saints.”
Note that the LDS god says “I have {already accomplished} sent forth…” the destroyer. History shows that the enemies of the Mormons were not destroyed or laid waste. They still haven’t been to this day! The “destroyer” must be slow! This is another prophecy that was frustrated (D&C 3.3) because the Mormons were still persecuted after this and were driven out of “Zion” about 5 years later!
14) THE DREADFUL DAY OF LORD IS NEAR.
In D&C 110.16, (1836) we find this prophecy: “…the keys of this dispensation are committed into your hands; and by this ye may know that the great and dreadful day of the Lord is near, even at the doors.” Over 150 years have passed, and that “dreadful day of the Lord” has not come. Another failed prophecy!
15) THE TREASURE OF THE CITY IS YOURS.
D&C 111 has a very strange revelation about treasures in Salem, MA: “I have much treasure in this city for you, for the benefit of Zion, and many people in this city, whom I will gather out in due time for the benefit of Zion, through your instrumentality…and it shall come to pass in due time that I will give this city into your hands, that you shall have power over it, insomuch that they shall not discover your secret parts; and its wealth, pertaining to gold and silver shall be yours. Concern not yourselves about your debts, for I will give you power to pay them… And the place where it is my will that you would tarry, for the main, shall be signalized unto you by the peace and power of my Spirit, that shall flow unto you. This place you may obtain by hire. And inquire diligently concerning the more ancient inhabitants and founders of this city. For there are more treasures than one for you in this city.”
Neither Joseph Smith nor other LDS leaders ever found any treasures in Salem. They did not take control of Salem, nor have any Mormons since. The “many people” were never gathered out, as only 13 were baptized out of the whole city. The silver and gold prophesied was never found. They returned to Kirtland, OH without funds to pay their debts! This prophecy fails on every count!
16) THOMAS MARSH’S “GREAT WORKS”?
A personal prophecy was given to Thomas B. Marsh on July 23, 1837 and recorded in D&C 112.3-12. At the time this prophecy was given, Marsh was the leader of the 12 apostles of the LDS church.
Here are key excerpts from it: “…thou [Marsh] shall bear record of my name, not only unto the gentiles, but also unto the Jew; and thou shalt send forth my word unto the ends of the earth…for I, the Lord, have a great work for thee to do, in publishing my name among the children of men…
thou art chosen, and thy path lieth among the mountains, and among many nations. And by thy word many high ones shall be brought low, and by thy word, many low ones shall be exalted. Thy voice shall be a rebuke unto the transgressor; and at thy rebuke let the tongue of the slanderer cease its perverseness. Be thou humble, and the Lord thy God shall lead thee by the hand, and give thee answer to thy prayers. I know thy heart, and have heard thy prayers concerning thy brethren…pray for thy brethren of the Twelve. Admonish them sharply for my name’s sake, and let them be admonished for all their sins, and be ye faithful before me unto my name…”
In fact, Marsh was excommunicated from the LDS church less than two years later. Although he rejoined the church about 20 years later, he never did any of the mighty works listed in the above prophecy. For most of his 20-year absence he was, in fact, a bitter enemy of the Mormon Church.
17) THE MYSTERIOUS MISSION OF DAVID W. PATTEN
Speaking of personal prophecies, here is a failed one in D&C 114.1 (1838) “…thus saith the Lord: It is wisdom in my servant, David W. Patten, that he settle up all his business as soon as he possibly can, and make a disposition of his merchandise, that he may perform a mission unto me next spring, in company with others, even twelve including himself, to testify of my name and bear glad tidings unto all the world.
Sadly, Patten was killed before he could fulfill this prophecy. Mormons have two arguments against this fact. One is that Patten was actually being called on a mission to the spirit world after death. Although that is a very creative response, the verse itself contradicts it since 1) he was to go on the mission with eleven other men, none of whom was killed before spring; and 2) the verse says his mission was to “the whole world.” That could hardly be just the spirit world.
The other argument is that he was not worthy of the mission so the Lord killed him. The problem with that assertion is that Joseph Smith himself proclaimed that “Brother David Patten was a very worthy man, beloved by all good men who knew him…and died as he had lived, a man of God, and strong in the faith of a glorious resurrection…one of his last expressions to his wife was whatever you do else, O! Do not deny the faith.’ These explanations do not hold water! The prophecy is false!
18) DO YOU REMEMBER OLIVER GRANGER?
Another personal prophecy of Smith’s which fell to the ground was D&C 117.12-15, which says, in part: “…I say unto you, I remember my servant Oliver Granger; behold, verily I say unto him that his name shall be had in sacred remembrance from generation to generation, forever and ever, saith the Lord…”
You ask 99 out of 100 Mormons who Oliver Granger is, and they will give you a blank look. His name is supposed to be in everlasting remembrance from generation to generation, and yet most Mormons have never heard of him.
19) DID JOSEPH TRIUMPH OVER HIS FOES?
This section of D&C 121 is prefaced in the LDS church introduction by being identified as “Prayers and Prophecies written by Joseph Smith the Prophet, while he was a prisoner in jail in Liberty…” Note what is said in part in vs.5-15, “…My son, peace be unto thy soul; thine adversity and thine afflictions shall be but a small moment; And then, if thou endure it well, God shall exalt thee on high; thou shalt triumph over all thy foes…And also that God hath set his hand and seal to change the times and seasons, and to blind their minds, that they might not understand his marvelous workings; and take them in their own craftiness…And not many years hence, that they and their posterity shall be swept from under heaven, saith God, that not one of them is left to stand by the wall…”
This prophecy promises that Smith and his church would triumph over all their foes. This never happened. They had just been driven out of their “Zion” in Independence, MO. Smith was to die by the hands of his foes, about five years later. The entire church was run out of the state about eight years later and had to flee to Utah! Can this be triumphing over your enemies?
Even in Utah, the power of the church was ultimately broken by the federal government who forced the church leaders to submit to government authority and to do away with their cherished doctrine of plural marriage! More recently, the church was forced to succumb to outside pressure again and change its racist position on the blacks or else lose its tax-exempt status. Likewise, its strong anti-abortion stand has been also reversed. Is this triumph?
We need to ask: When did God change the times and seasons on us (vs.12)? When did he blind the minds of Smith’s enemies? When were every one of Smith’s enemies “swept from under heaven”? In fact, most of them long outlived him!
20) THE INTEGRITY OF GEORGE MILLER
In D&C 124.20-21, (1841) we find the following revelation: “…verily, I say unto you, my servant George Miller is without guile; he may be trusted because of the integrity which he has to my testimony I, the Lord, love him. I therefore say unto you, I seal upon his head the office of a bishopric…that he may receive the consecrations of mine house, that he may administer blessings upon the heads of the poor of my people, saith the Lord. Let no man despise my servant George, for he shall honor me.”
In spite of this endorsement from “the Lord,” George Miller was excommunicated seven years later. Another prophecy frustrated (D&C 3.3) by the work of men?
21) WHERE WAS JOSEPH’S VICTORY?
D&C 127.2 contains the following prophecy, similar to the one noted above in #18: “…for to this day has the God of my fathers delivered me out of them all, and will deliver me from henceforth; for behold, and lo, I will triumph over all my enemies, for the Lord God hath spoken it.”
This also promises that Smith would triumph over his enemies. Obviously, he did not do so as they murdered him and drove his remaining church from pillar to post.
22) WAS EMMA SMITH “DESTROYED?”
One of the most significant sections of the Doctrine and Covenants is D&C #132, which deals with the plural marriage(polygamy) revelation. However, it also contains many false prophecies! “(v.6) And as pertaining to the new and everlasting covenant [i.e.. polygamy or plural marriage], it was instituted for the fulness of my glory; and he that receiveth a fulness there must and shall abide the law, or he shall be damned, saith the Lord God.…(v.52-54) …let mine handmaid, Emma Smith [Joseph’s first wife] receive all those [wives] that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure and have said they were pure shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.…
and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be ruler over many things; for he hath been faithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him. And I command my handmaid, Emma Smith to abide and cleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment [of plural marriage] she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law..(v.62) And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore he is justified.”
Where do we begin? First of all, plural marriage was an “everlasting covenant” that only lasted about 50 years. It was officially done away with in 1890. How can something everlasting stop? Obviously false! Secondly, according to v.6, everyone who is not living in plural marriage in the LDS church is damned. That means that almost all Mormons except for 30,000 or so “fundamentalists” today (who still keep the original commandments of plural marriage) are damned!
Verse 53 says that Joseph Smith would be strengthened henceforth. That depends on one’s definition of “henceforth,” as he was shot dead by his enemies less than a year later. That usually doesn’t strengthen one.
Verse 54 threatens Emma Smith with destruction is she does not let Joseph have all of his wives without complaint and acknowledge the divine origins of plural marriage. Emma never did these things. She fought against the plural marriage doctrine; and yet she lived to ripe old age; and Joseph was shot just months later. Emma was so opposed to polygamy, that she went off with Joseph’s son, Joseph Smith III and started the RLDS church, which denies that Smith ever taught polygamy. That pretty well blows that prophecy out of the water!
23) THE “LAST TIME” THE MISSIONARIES WENT OUT
In D&C 33.3, (1830) a “revelation” given through Joseph: “For behold, the field is white already to harvest; and it is the eleventh hour, and the last time I shall call laborers into my vineyard.” Now this was in 1830, and it is quite evidently false for LDS missionaries are being “called” every day to go on missions. If the last time missionaries, who are certainly laborers in the field of harvest if anyone is, were to be called was 1830, then how can the LDS church call missionaries today and believe this scripture to be true?
24) “SOME REVELATIONS ARE OF THE DEVIL”
In the work, An Address to All Believers in Christ, David Whitmer, (one of the “Three Witnesses” to the Book of Mormon) related that in the winter of 1829-1830, Joseph Smith sent Hiram Page and Oliver Cowdery on a mission to Toronto, Canada to sell the copyright to the Book of Mormon. This mission was ordered by a revelation that Smith claimed he had received from God.
Unfortunately, both the mission and the revelation were utter failures. This is yet another false prophecy. Oddly enough, when Smith was asked why the revelation had fallen to the ground, he “…enquired of the Lord about it, and behold, the following revelation came through the stone: “Some revelations are of God: some revelations are of man: and some revelations are of the devil.’ So we see that the revelation to go to Toronto and sell the copy-right was not of God, but of man.”
But the question must be asked, if the “prophet” Joseph Smith cannot tell which of his revelations are from God and which are not; why should we trust any of them? It is a very flimsy proposition at best!
25) ANY NATIONS BOWING TO THE MORMON GOSPEL?
D&C 49.9-10 (1831) gives us a false prophecy, redolent with arrogance: “Wherefore, I say unto you that I have sent unto you mine everlasting covenant, even that which was from the beginning. And that which I have promised I have so fulfilled, and the nations of the earth shall bow to it; and, if not of themselves, they shall come down, for that which is now exalted of itself shall be laid low of power.”
This “everlasting covenant” is term used constantly in Mormonism to refer to the LDS version of the gospel and specifically to the idea of temple marriage. Now we have yet to see any nations “bow” to the principles of the Mormon gospel, and it has been almost 160 years as of this writing, since the prophecy was given.
In fact, since this prophecy, various governments (whether rightly or wrongly) have driven the Mormons out of various states, forced them to give up their doctrines of celestial plural marriage and white racism, forbidden them to preach their weird gospel in many lands.
None of these governments or nations, including the US (which was the particular subject of death curses from the LDS temples for almost a century) has been “brought low” for not bowing down to Mormonism.
26) “I, THE LORD, PROMISE THE FAITHFUL AND CANNOT LIE…”
Joseph Smith prophesied in D&C 62.1,6, & 9 (1831) that “…the faithful among you should be preserved and rejoice together in the land of Missouri. I, the Lord promise the faithful, and cannot lie… Behold, .the kingdom is yours. And behold, and lo, I am with the faithful always…”
There are some serious problems with this prophecy as well. The “faithful” were not preserved; they did not rejoice together in Missouri (in fact, they were run out of the state); and the “kingdom” was not theirs and God certainly did not appear to be with them. Official LDS history shows how this prophecy failed!
27) WERE ALL THE PROMISES OF DOCTRINE & COVENANTS FULFILLED?
Even the celebrated first section of D&C (1831) does not emerge without a false prophecy of massive proportions. Section 1, verse 37 states: “Search these commandments, for they are true and faithful, and the prophecies and promises which are in them shall all be fulfilled.” We have already shown over twenty places in the D&C where the prophecies were not fulfilled. There are yet more to come.
28) WAS JESUS LATE?
D&C 133.17 (1831) prophesies: “Prepare ye the way of the Lord, and make his paths straight, for the hour of his coming is nigh.” This prophecy was given over 175 years ago, and has still not occurred. That is stretching the meaning of the word “nigh” to the breaking point!
29) THE CIVIL WAR PROPHECY.. This is one they do talk about..however….
This is a long one, but it needs to be looked at closely because the Mormons [especially the LDS missionaries] like to claim this prophecy as one of Joseph Smith’s true prophecies, and it just does not bear close scrutiny!
In D&C 87.18, (1832) we read: “Verily, thus saith the Lord concerning the wars that will shortly come to pass, beginning at the rebellion of South Carolina, which will eventually terminate in the death and misery of many souls; And the time will come that war will be pour out upon all nations, beginning at this place. For behold, the Southern States shall be divided against the Northern States, and the Southern States will call on other nations, even the nation of Great Britain…and they shall also call upon other nations, in order to defend themselves against other nations; and then war shall be poured out upon all nations.
“And it shall come to pass, after many days, slaves shall rise up against their masters, who shall be marshalled and disciplined for war. And it shall come to pass also that the remnants who are left of the land will marshal themselves, and shall become exceedingly angry, and shall vex the Gentiles with a sore vexation.
“And thus, with the sword and by bloodshed the inhabitants of the earth shall mourn; and with famine, and plague, and earthquake, and the thunder of heaven, and the fierce and vivid lightning also, shall the inhabitants of the earth be made to feel the wrath and indignation, and chastening hand of an Almighty God until the consumption decreed hath made a full end of all nations.
“That the cry of the saints, and the blood of the saints, shall cease to come up into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth, from the earth, to be avenged of their enemies. Wherefore, stand ye in holy places, and be not moved, until the day of the Lord come; for behold it cometh quickly, saith the Lord. Amen.”
This prophecy was given on Christmas Day, 1832, in appearance almost 30 years before the Civil War. Although the prophecy looks good on the surface, it must be realized that at the time this was brought forth, South Carolina was already involved in many rebellious acts, and this fact was available in the papers of the time. Congress had passed a tariff in July of 1832 that South Carolina had declared unacceptable.
It was during the Christmas season that the nation’s press expected and wrote about the impending outbreak of civil war, beginning with this rebellion in South Carolina. Even the U.S. Army was on alert. With these facts at hand, it did not take much of a seer to predict the unfolding events. Even a paper published by the Mormons themselves contained such news!
However, the war did not come to pass. The entire prophecy was shelved and never appeared again during Joseph Smith’s lifetime. The first two editions of the History of the Church did not include it even though it was in the original manuscript. It reappeared in 1852 when the war again seemed imminent.
Aside from the dating problems, the scope of the prophecy is not in balance. In just one item, the prophecy states that war would begin locally and pour out upon all nations and shall be the direct cause of an international global war. Even the great World War I did not encompass all nations, and it was 50 years after the Civil War and had no possible relationship to it! This is a definite false prophecy that did not come to pass.
There are at least 20 elements in this prophecy, and for it to be a true prophecy, all of those elements would have come to pass. In human terms, those odds are one in 1,048,576; a truly remarkable achievement, had Smith pulled it off. Obviously, he did not.
In another example, verses 4 through 6 state that the slaves shall rise up, the remnants left in the land shall rise up against the Gentiles (non-Mormons) and the bloodshed, famines, plagues (caused by this great war) shall bring with God’s wrath, “…a full end of all nations.” This did not happen. In fact, Smith only got two elements out of 20 correct, and those were based on current events and common sense. Sorry, this is a bad one!
30) PESTILENCE AND EARTHQUAKE IN THE US?
Here is an explicit false prophecy (1833) from official Church history: “And now I am prepared to say by the authority of Jesus Christ, that not many years shall pass away before the United States shall present such a scene of bloodshed as has not a parallel in the history of our nation; pestilence, hail, famine, and earthquake shall sweep the wicked of this generation from off the face of the land…flee to Zion before the overflowing scourge overtake you, for there are those now living upon the earth whose eyes shall not be closed in death until they see all these things, which I had spoken, fulfilled.”
Obviously, none of these dire predictions has come to pass, and it has been over 150 years since they were given. No one is now left alive from that generation. The scope of the warning was centered on the generation in which the Mormons were still calling on their converts to leave their homes, cities and countries and Come to Zion. They have long since stopped this mandatory migration to the center of Mormonism. That generation had passed by before the end of the 19th century.
31) DID ZION FAIL?
D&C 97.19-20 (1833) declares: “Surely, Zion is the city of our God, and surely Zion cannot fall, neither be moved out of her place, for God is there and the hand of the Lord is there; And he hath sworn by the power of his might to be her salvation…”
This makes Smith a false prophet or God too weak to keep his promises. “Zion” fell and the Mormons were driven out of Independence, MO in 1838-39!
32) WAS ZION REDEEMED AFTER “A LITTLE SEASON?”
D&C 100.13, 15 (1833) states: “And now I give unto you a word concerning Zion. Zion shall be redeemed although she is chastened for a little season.…Therefore, let your hearts be comforted; for all things shall work together for good to them that walk uprightly, and to the sanctification of the church.”
Again, over a century and a half has passed without this prophecy coming to pass. That would be stretching the idea of “a little season” beyond the point where the English language has any meaning at all.
33) SEVENTY FIVE PERCENT WRONG?
In a letter to “the Exiled Saints in Missouri,” Joseph Smith declared: “Therefore this is my counsel, that you retain your lands [in Missouri], even unto the utmost, and employ every lawful means to seek redress of your enemies; and pray to God day and night to return you in peace and safety to the lands of your inheritance; and when the judge fail you, appeal unto the executive; and when the executive fail you; appeal to the president; and when the president fail you, and all things also fail you but God alone, and you continue to weary Him with your importunings, as the poor woman did the unjust judge. He will not fail you to execute judgment upon your enemies, and to avenge his own elect that cry unto Him day and night. Behold, He will not fail you. He will come with ten thousand of his saints, and all His adversaries shall be destroyed with the breath of His lips.
Unfortunately for the Mormons, none of these things came to pass; nor have they yet. They did not retain their lands in Missouri. The god of Mormonism never destroyed their enemies; and in fact, those very same enemies drove them out of the state The only thing Smith got right was that they would petition all the authorities and be turned down. 25% accuracy does not cut it according to Deuteronomy 18:20-22.
34) THE MARCH OF ZION’S CAMP
In D&C 103.15ff, there is a prophecy concerning Zion’s Camp. It begins: “…(v.15) Behold, I [God] say unto you, the redemption of Zion must needs come by power…(v.19) Therefore, let not your hearts faint…(v.20) Mine angels shall go up before you , and also my presence, and in time ye shall possess the goodly land…(v.24) And inasmuch as mine enemies come against you to drive you from my goodly land, which I have consecrated to be the land of Zion, even from your own lands…ye shall curse them; and whosoever ye curse, I will curse, and ye shall avenge me of mine enemies.”
Leaving aside for a moment the totally un-Biblical theology of all this (Jesus told us to pray for our enemies, not to curse them; and nowhere does God ask His people to avenge Him!), this is still a failed prophecy. Zion’s Camp was an armed crusade of Mormons sent out by “revelation” to go to Missouri and rescue their fellow Latter-day Saints there. Actually, the march of Zion’s Camp failed miserably, and so did the prophecy of God’s presence going before them and cursing their enemies!
35) THE MOVE TO JACKSON COUNTY
In a letter to the High Council (8/16/1834), Joseph Smith declared, “…I shall now proceed to give you such counsel as the Spirit of the Lord may dictate…[you are to have the churches] use every effort to gather to those regions and locate themselves, to be in readiness to move into Jackson County in two years from the eleventh of September next, which is the appointed time for the redemption of Zion…
Well, the churches did not move into Jackson County on September 11, 1836. Nor was “Zion” redeemed at that time; as church history itself shows. Was the Holy Spirit wrong, or just Joseph?
36) THE KIRTLAND “ANTI-BANKING SOCIETY”
A false prophecy from the Latter-day Saint Messenger and Advocate, “This place [Kirtland, OH] must be built up, and will be built up, and every brother that will take hold and help secure these contracts [for land] shall be rich.”
This one fell with a “crash!” The Mormons were driven out of Ohio and no one became rich by helping to secure those land contracts. Ironically, most of the men who helped Smith lost their shirts and Smith himself went bankrupt because of his “funny-money” scheme in the Kirtland Anti-banking Society.
37) NASA, PHONE JOSEPH SMITH!
Joseph Smith, not content with banking; also tried his hand at exobiology and astronomy. He declared in 1837: “Inhabitants of the Moon are more of a uniform size than the inhabitants of the Earth, being about 6 feet in height. They dress very much like the Quaker Style & and quite general in Style, or the one fashion of dress. They live to be very old; coming generally near a thousand years. This is the description of them as given by Joseph Smith the Seer.
Although Mormons will try and deny that Joseph Smith ever really taught this nonsense, they will find it confirmed from Brigham Young; who also taught it; and added that there were people also living in the sun! Obviously, modern science has condemned these prophecies to the ashcan of bad science fiction!
38) THAT POOR TEMPLE IN MISSOURI!
Another prophecy about the temple being built in Missouri is in D&C 115.1, 7-12: “Verily, thus saith the Lord…Let the city, Far West, be a holy and consecrated land unto me; and it shall be called most holy, for the ground upon which thou standest is holy. Therefore, I command you to build a house unto me, for the gathering together of my saints, that they may worship me. And let there be a beginning of this work, and a foundation, and a preparatory work this following summer;…Thus let them from that time forth labor diligently until it shall be finished, from the cornerstone thereof unto the top thereof, until there shall not anything remain that is not finished.”
The temple has never been built, although the cornerstone was laid in 1838. Since this work has been frustrated for over a century and a half, it must be a work of men, not of God (D&C 3.3). The very best one can say about Joseph Smith and company is that they failed miserably in obeying their god’s commands.
39) THE MARCH TO JACKSON COUNTY
Joseph Smith is quoted (1839) in “Reed Peck’s Manuscript” as prophesying that: “…within three years they [the Mormons] should march to Jackson County and there should not be a dog to open his mouth against them.” The Mormons did not march into Jackson County by 1842. In fact, they still have not done so.
40) THE “ASTONISHING” ANSON CALL?
An 1842 prophecy of Joseph Smith from the “Anson Call Diary” [discussing the Rocky Mountains] declared that: “…there are some of these standing here that will perform a great work in that land…There is Anson [Call], he shall go and assist in building cities from one end of the country to the other and you shall perform as great a work as has ever been done by man, and the nations of the earth shall be astonished and many of them will be gathered in that land and assist in building cities.”
As it happens, Anson Call did assist in settling Millard County, Utah in the southern part of the state. However, none of the “cities” in that region is particularly large or noteworthy. Nor did Call ever build cities from one end of the country to the other. He did not do anything that “astonished” the nations; nor did he do “as great a work as has ever been done by man.”
41) JESUS’ RETURN
Joseph Smith made this reference to the Second Coming of Jesus: “Were I going to prophesy, I would say the end [of the world] would not come in 1844, 5 or 6, or in forty years. There are those of the rising generation who shall not taste death till Christ comes.
“I was once praying earnestly upon this subject, and a voice said unto me, “My son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years of age, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man.” I was left to draw my own conclusions concerning this, and I took the liberty to conclude that if I did live to that time, He would make His appearance. But I do not say whether He will make His appearance or I shall go where He is. I prophesy in the name of the Lord God, and let it be writte: the Son of Man will not come in the clouds of heaven till I am eighty-five years old.”[48 years hence or about 1890…]
Interestingly enough, this passage is taken from Smith’s diary; and modern LDS “historians” have removed the phrase “48 years hence or about 1890″ because it so clearly demonstrates the falsity of the prophecy .
Obviously, none of the “rising generation” ever saw Jesus’ coming. Jesus certainly did not come in “about 1890.” A century has passed since that date; and Smith’s prophecy lies dead and buried along with that “rising generation.”
42) THE POTSHERD PROPHECY
Although Mormons like to vaunt their patriotism, Joseph Smith was not very fond of the US government. In 1843, he declared: “…if the government, which received into its coffers the money of citizens for its public treasury, cannot protect such citizens in their lives and property, it is an old granny anyhow; and I prophesy in the name of the Lord God of Israel, unless the United States redress the wrongs committed upon the Saints in the state of Missouri and punish the crimes committed by her officers, that in a few years the government will be utterly overthrown and wasted, and there will not be so much as a potsherd left…”
Congress failed to comply with Smith’s demands. It did not protect the Mormons, and did not redress the wrongs done against them. In spite of this; the congress was never overthrown; and the US government has never been destroyed, overthrown or wasted. After over 140 years, the United States is the most powerful country in the World!
43) WARNING THE LAWLESS
In 1844, Joseph Smith made this “prophetic” threat: “I therefore warn the lawless not to be precipitate in any interference in our affairs, for as sure as there is a God in Israel, we shall ride triumphant over all oppression.” A little over a week after this prophecy, Smith was shot to death by his enemies; and all the efforts of the Mormons in Nauvoo were brought to naught soon after that.
44) DID SMITH “SWALLOW UP ALL OTHER BANKS?”
In The Millennial Star, volume 19, p.343, Smith proclaimed that his Kirtland Anti-Banking Society was to “…swallow up all other banks.” As has been discussed above, in False Prophecy #36; Smith’s bank failed miserably.
45) NO PEACE SAVE IN ZION?
A statement of Joseph Smith’s was published in Compendium in 1882 on p.271 in which he declared: “The time is soon coming when no man will have any peace but in Zion [Independence, MO.] and her stakes.” More than 170 years have passed since that prophecy; and it is no truer now, than it was then.
46) W.W. PHELPS JUST DIED TOO SOON!
“Joseph Smith prophesied by revelation that W.W.Phelps would not taste of death till Jesus came. Often in private and in public, did Mr. Phelps boast to the saints of this blessing, given to him by revelation and prophecy through Joseph.” However, Phelps died March 7, 1872. Another blatantly false prophecy!
47) THAT WONDERFULLY “CORRECT” BOOK
Joseph Smith proclaimed this in 1841: “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding its precepts, than by any other book?”
Now, if this is true, why have there been over 4,000 changes in the Book of Mormon since its 1830 publication; many of them substantive and significant? Can it still be “the most correct book” of any on earth with that many errors? How does it compare to the Bible?
Without wanting to get into a lengthy discourse on just how reliable the Bible really is; consider these simple facts: The New Testament, for example has about 20,000 lines of manuscript in it. It is roughly the same size document as the Book of Mormon, which has around 25,800 lines in it (in the 1830 edition). Playing with the math, we find that the New Testament has 0.5% (one-half of one percent) changes AT MOST in its text, between the oldest manuscripts we have, and the present translations’ worst-case scenarios.
In applying the same math to the Book of Mormon, we find that with over 4,000 changes, it has a change rate of more than twice that of the New Testament! This is extraordinarily bad for the Book of Mormon when one considers that the New Testament has gone through almost two thousand of years of copying while the Book of Mormon has been supposedly sitting pristine in the ground on golden plates and translated by the direct power of God. Further, since its discovery, it has been completely controlled for a just 175 years by Infallible, “living prophets.”
Think of that! The New Testament has managed to acquire only half the textual changes that the Book of Mormon has, even though the NT has been in existence for nearly 2,000 years! In other words, it means that in thirteen times the time span, the NT has at most 50% fewer corrections in its text than the “most correct book.” It is also of interest that in the New Testament changes, no essential element of Christian faith has been altered, while numerous such changes have been made In the Book of Mormon.
Beyond that false prophecy, there is another element in the statement. Joseph Smith declared that the Book of Mormon could draw folks nearer to God through obeying its teachings than any other book. However, absolutely none of the distinctive commands of the LDS church are in the Book of Mormon; nor are any of its doctrines! In fact, the Book of Mormon teaches against most points of LDS theology.
Among other things, it teaches the Trinity (2 Nephi 31.21); that God was never a man, and that He never changes (3 Nephi 24.6, Moroni 8.18); that plural marriage is incredibly evil (Jacob 2.22-27); that you are saved only through faith without works (Mosiah 3.18, 5.15); and that baptism for the dead is worthless for you must be born again before death(Alma 34.32-35).
This means you could read the Book of Mormon and never have the foggiest idea of how the LDS church teaches people must attain exaltation!
48) “THE HOUR IS NIGH”
In D&C 29.9-10, (1830) Joseph Smith again prophesied: “For the hour is nigh and the day soon at hand when the earth is ripe and all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, saith the Lord of Hosts, that wickedness should not be upon the earth; for the hour is nigh, and that which was spoken by mine apostles must be fulfilled; for as they spoke, so shall it come to pass.”
Any reasonable reading of the words “nigh” and “soon” would indicate Smith was prophesying the coming of the Lord in his lifetime. Over 150 years and several generations have passed away since Joseph Smith passed away and still this prophecy is unfulfilled.
49) THE “UTTER ABOLISHMENT” OF NEW YORK AND BOSTON
Another “threat” prophecy was given by Smith in D&C 84.114-119 (1832) “…let the bishop go unto the city of New York, also to the city of Albany, and also to the city of Boston and warn the people of those cities with the sound of the gospel…of the desolation and utter abolishment [sic] which await them if they do reject these things. For if they do reject these things the hour of their judgment is nigh, and their house shall be left unto them desolate…(v.119) For I the Lord have put forth my hand to exert the powers of heaven; ye cannot see it now, yet a little while and ye shall see it and know that I am, and that I will come and reign with my people.”
Now none of these cities ever listened to the LDS gospel to any measurable extent at all during Smith’s lifetime. In fact, they all rejected it; and even now, the LDS church represents a very tiny minority in these urban centers. Yet these cities never suffered “desolation and utter abolishment” for their failure to heed the LDS gospel. The prophecy failed.
50) THE KEYS, THE KEYS, WHO HAS THE KEYS?
A rather self-serving prophecy appears in D&C 112.15 (1837): “…rebel not against my servant Joseph; for verily I say unto you, I am with him, and my hand shall be over him; and the keys which I have given unto him, and also to youward, shall not be taken from him till I come.”
This revelation was given to Thomas B. Marsh, at the time the head of the Twelve Apostles. (see False Prophecy #15 above). The problems with it are two-fold. First, Smith was murdered in 1844 and the Lord had not come. That meant that the keys had to have been taken from him, or else Brigham Young would not have had them and would have been a false successor.
The Mormon might say, “Well, the promise is also to ‘youward,’ meaning the recipient of the revelation, Marsh.” However, that cannot be true, because surely the Lord would have known that 2 years later Marsh would be excommunicated and have any and all keys of the priesthood stripped from him.(see #15). Although Marsh did rejoin the church, he never again was an apostle nor held the “keys” that this prophecy promised he would hold until Jesus came again. So both Joseph Smith and Thomas Marsh failed to retain the keys promised.
51) WAS LYMAN WIGHT RIGHT?
Although not as directly involving Smith as the previous 50 prophecies have, this incident in 1831 during an ordination ceremony of Lyman Wight done by Smith shows that he taught and believed that Jesus would come within a generation: “The Spirit of the Lord fell upon Joseph in an unusual manner, and he prophesied that John the Revelator was then among the Ten Tribes of Israel…He prophesied many more things I have not written. After he had prophesied, he laid his hands upon Lyman Wight and ordained him to the High Priesthood, after the holy order of God. And the Spirit fell upon Lyman and he prophesied concerning the coming of Christ. He said that there were some in the congregation that should live until the Savior should descend from heaven with a shout, with all the holy angels with him.”
As we have had to observe many times before here, all the people of that generation have been in their graves for years. And Jesus has not come. According to the Bible, if Joseph Smith had disagreed with Lyman’s prophecy, or felt he was off-base; he should have corrected him, especially since he was the “senior prophet”, rather than let false teaching go abroad into the congregation while he was present.(1 Cor. 14:29) Smith was not usually shy about rebuking those he disagreed with, and he let this prophecy stand, primarily because it agreed with several of his own.
52) “…56 YEARS SHOULD WIND UP THE SCENE.”
Here is an example of Smith’s own prophecies of the Second Coming from 1835 with which the above prophecy agreed: “President [Joseph] Smith then stated that the meeting had been called, because God had commanded it; and it was made known to him by vision and by the Holy Spirit. He then gave a relation of some of the circumstances attending us while journeying to Zion, our trials and sufferings…[that we should]…go forth to prune the vineyard for the last time, or the coming of the Lord was nigh, even 56 years should wind up the scene.”
Now 56 years would make the year of the Lord’s coming 1891, which would agree with all of the preceding prophecies on this subject, but which would disagree with reality and history!
Smith later added that if he met with a violent end, the scene would wind up a good ten years earlier. Well, 1881 and 1891 came and went without the return of Christ. Another specific test of exact prophecy and another failure.
53) HAS THE MORMON CHURCH BEEN REJECTED?
In D&C 124.27-36, (1841) through Joseph Smith, the god of Mormonism gave an ultimatum to the LDS people in Nauvoo, IL in the form of this prophecy/commandment.
“…build a house to my name, for the Most High to dwell in. For there is not a place found on earth that he may come to and restore again that which was lost unto you, or which he hath taken away, even the fulness of the priesthood…(v.31) I command you, all ye my saints, to build a house unto me; and I grant unto you a sufficient time to build a house unto me; and during this time your baptisms shall be acceptable unto me. But behold, at the end of this appointment, your baptisms for the dead shall not be acceptable unto me; and if you do not these things at the end of the appointment ye shall be rejected as a church, with your dead, saith the Lord God.”
Now bear in mind again the principle of D&C 3.3, that if a work is frustrated ,it is of men. The Mormon people did not build the temple in Nauvoo, IL. in anywhere near the “end of the appointment.” In fact, the temple was still unfinished when Smith was shot in 1844! Even some Mormon historians doubt that the temple was ever finished before it was burned to the ground by mobs. Obviously, the building of the temple was not the work of God, which makes this whole prophecy false!
This means that all the work that the LDS church has been doing for the dead is unacceptable to their god. Either this prophecy is false, or else the LDS church should “be rejected as a church.” Which is it, reject the prophet or reject the church? Either one pulls the whole house of cards down!
FINALLY, we felt we might bring this rather dreary litany of godless failures to a close with some of the few prophecies Joseph Smith actually got right!
1) Boastful Prophets
In D&C 3.4 ( given in 1828), we find this: “For although a man may have many revelations, and have power to do many mighty works, yet if he boasts in his own strength, and sets at naught the counsels of God, and follows after the dictates of his own will and carnal desires, he must fall and incur the vengeance of a just God upon him..”
Now bear that prophecy in mind, as we move ahead several years to 1844. In May of that year, Smith proclaimed this: “I have more to boast of than any man ever had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a church together since the days of Adam.…Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet.”
Just 30 days from making that boast, on June 27, 1844, Joseph Smith was murdered by a mob in Carthage jail. He fell, and incurred the vengeance of a just God upon himself. Of course, that is not how our LDS friends see it; but at least this time, Joseph got it right!
2) Porter Rockwell
As I mentioned earlier, Joseph Smith promised Orrin Porter Rockwell, his bodyguard and the great “Destroying Angel” that no bullet or blade in the hands of his enemies would harm him if he remained loyal, true to his faith and did not cut his hair. Rockwell kept his hair long and through thirty-five years of fighting and countless enemies, died in bed after a hard night of drinking.
3) One More On Christ’s Return
On March 10, 1844, Smith said that the Second Coming of Christ would NOT be that year or for the next 40 years. He was right.
4) Good and Evil
Joseph Smith said that the Angel Moroni told him that “my name should be had for good and evil among all nations, kindreds and tongues, or that it should be both good and evil spoken of [me] among all people.” While the “all nations, Kindreds and tongues” may be a bit presumptuous, since the LDS church has only reached around 100 kindreds and tongues worldwide, surely, wherever Mormonism has appeared, both good and evil is spoken about Smith.
5) Inspired Version Bible
Joseph Smith said that it was not the Lord’s will that the Inspired Version of the New Testament portion of the Bible be published in Newspapers. He said that the Inspired New Testament and the Book of Mormon would be printed together. The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints printed and issued the two books together in 1892-1893 and thereby fulfilled the prophecy.
© 1991, 2009 Saints Alive in Jesus.
Footnotes
1 HISTORY OF THE CHURCH, Deseret Books, Salt Lake City, UT., 1978, 2:380-81.
2 See ibid., 2:187 for a list of the Twelve Apostles chosen.
3 ibid., 2:528.
4 ibid., 3:20
5 ibid., pp.31-32.
6 ibid., pp.166-167.
7 ibid., 7:483.
8 See the official Sesquicentennial Reprint of the 1830 Book of Mormon by Deseret Books, 1980, p.117.
9 Saints Alive Newsletter, April-May 1988, citing official LDS church statistics.
10 History indicates that, in fact, this was a reference to Orrin Porter Rockwell; a killer who was a faithful servant of Joseph Smith and later of Brigham Young and who was frequently sent out to kill and terrorize those who opposed the Mormon church.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 14, 2010 at 2:28 am


Jacob In Boise says:
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus,
Your pride seals you to the same fate as an atheist.
Mr. Incredible says:
You mean to tell me — tell US — that you can determine that I am prideful, just by what I write and from WWWAAAYYY over there??? Or are you just speculating? Yyyyesss, it’s just speculation.
Jacob In Boise says:
The new Covenant was brought forth by Joseph Smith and is there for you to accept.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Did this Joseph Smith die for my sins? Did he rise from his grave? Is his body STILL in his grave?
Jesus established the New Covenant when He died on the Cross. There is no newer covenant…from God, anyway. The covenant of which YOU write is not from God.
Jacob In Boise says:
The only thing that stops you is your excessive pride in what you think you know.
Mr. Incredible says:
It doesn’t matter what YOU think. It doesn’t matter what this character, Smith, thinks, or thought, either. Only what God and Christ think. I’m happy with that, and so are They.
Jacob In Boise says:
I know in my heart and in my soul that you are wrong.
Mr. Incredible says:
I don’t doubt that you think you DO think that.
Here’s a news bulletin for you: I DON’T CARE.
Jacob In Boise says:
God does too!
Mr. Incredible asks:
Which one? Certainly not the God of the Word.
Jacob In Boise says:
It is not too late to open your heart to the truth!
Mr. Incredible says:
Whose truth? YOURS?
I know in my heart and mind that YOU are wrong. How ’bout THAT?



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 14, 2010 at 2:37 am


You cannot dress up the Mormon gospel to be anything other than what Paul would say it is:
(Gal 1:6) I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
(Gal 1:7) Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
(Gal 1:8) But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
(Gal 1:9) As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
captcha: offence
Yes, and THAT’s what it is: offence.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 14, 2010 at 3:13 am


Again, the Holy Spirit cannot tell you one thing and me another.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 14, 2010 at 11:58 am


Jacob In Boise says:
The new Covenant was brought forth by Joseph Smith…
Mr. Incredible asks:
So, this is a newer covenant than the One brought forth by Jesus?
Jacob In Boise says:
…and is there for you to accept.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Koran was brought forth by Moe Hammed, and is there for us to accept, and many do. But we won’t.
The Devil has brought forth his covenant, and is there for us to accept, and too many do. But we won’t.
Discernment is key. You’ve lost that key.
Is the Book of Mormon a book of things Jesus forgot to tell us in His Word?
Is it an official, Christ-authorized book?
Does it supercede the New Testament?
There is NO — NONE — ZIP — NADA — evidence that the Book of Mormon is anything but just another book about a denomination’s view of the supernatural, like Madam Lazorra’s view.
When Jesus said, on the Cross, as He was dying, “It is finished,” He meant it, and I take Him at His Word. If He wanted to leave it open-ended, He would-a said so. He delivered the Father’s Message of Reconciliation, and, now, it’s up to us to carry It through, and that doesn’t include mangling His Word to accommodate some hippie having a pipe dream.
Now, if Smith lifts up Christ, this is good, but it is not to replace the Word of God, nor add to Him. Smith’s words are not part of Scripture, for the same reason that MY words are not part of Scripture; they align with Scripture. If Smith’s words align with Scripture, again, that’s good, but that doesn’t mean they ARE Scripture.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 14, 2010 at 1:00 pm


Jacob In Boise says:
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus,
Your pride seals you to the same fate as an atheist.
Mr. Incredible says:
Please show us an example of this “pride” YOU say I display.



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Your Name

posted December 14, 2010 at 9:18 pm


Don’t go to that website! INFECTION ALERT!



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Bonnie Dundee

posted December 15, 2010 at 10:13 am


All you bible beaters are chumps, no matter which version you swear by. Scientology is the only religion that makes any sense at all. Open those closed little minds and rise above the petty bickering.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 15, 2010 at 1:12 pm


Scientology IS a religion. Rules. Regulations. Logic. Reason. All senses. No wisdom. No Savior. Even sin is accepted.
You can have your stupid, Godless — but not godless — Scientology and your Mormonism and your damned Islam and the rest of that c r a p.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 15, 2010 at 1:45 pm


Chumps for Jesus! What a deal! It’ll take it!



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Your Name

posted December 15, 2010 at 3:17 pm


If you go to that site, your computer will probably be in big trouble. Don’t click on those scams.



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Luke 21:32

posted December 15, 2010 at 3:18 pm


Hey, a least there are no problems or internal inconsistencies with the BIble.
Okay, so I lied but I choose to believe anyway, it is just so comforting in spite of its problems, a big giant baby blanket that I can throw over my head and never have to face the realities of this world.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 15, 2010 at 6:21 pm


The “inconsistencies” you claim are in the “Bible” are really in your head.
What “realities”? Whose “realities”?



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Your Name

posted December 15, 2010 at 6:49 pm


What inconsistencies? What Bible? Whose head? What reality? Whose Reality? Where am I? What’s going on? Who are you to have an opinion? In what reality? Who cares?



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Your Name

posted December 15, 2010 at 7:59 pm


Do all money bills now originate in the Senate? According to what constitution?



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Your Name

posted December 15, 2010 at 9:00 pm


Spending bills must originate in the House; a bill headlining tax cuts (but which obviously increases the deficit) can originate in the Senate. As for the origin of “money” (the responsibility to coin), it is designated by the Constitution–and not to the Federal Reserve.
Strange that the line item veto was declared unconstitutional on the grounds that Constitutional authority could not be transferred.



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Luke 21:32

posted December 15, 2010 at 10:42 pm


Jesus stated that certain things would happen before the generation that he was addressing passed away. They didn’t happened. Jesus lied. Jesus is a liar. That makes Jesus a low-life piece of garbage. Maybe he had too much too drink that day. Don’t know, don’t care. He is still a liar and piece of garbage.
But, please spin the words anyway you wish. You will. You will make a fool of yourself trying to spin words into some impossible denial. Go ahead, make a fool of yourself. However, judging by what you have written, you always do.



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Your Name

posted December 16, 2010 at 1:26 am


Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, is the light and the truth and The Way–no matter what you say, nah nah nah–I can’t hear you, it IS THE WORD I believe in. If you believe in Jesus as The Salvation before you die you will be saved–nevermind those who died before they could ever have known of such a Being. Luke 21:32 needs to be deleted to make all things right–it was included by human error, not that of God Almighty, saver of souls, redeemer of all who believe. Commentor Luke 21:32 is going to hell for blasphemy, nah nah nah, all things Jesus said will come to pass COME to pass whether you know it or not! LIAR, DECIEVER burn in hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Your Name

posted December 16, 2010 at 9:01 am


All money-appropriating bills, including tax-addressed legislative issues [which have to do with appropriations], must originate in the House, not the Senate.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 16, 2010 at 9:19 am


Mr. Incredible says:
Lookit the hate [hate comes only from the Devil] expressed below by Luke 21:32, and notice how he — somebody who doesn’t believe in God and Christ — tries to tell us about somebody he doesn’t belleive in:
Luke 21:32 says:
Jesus stated that certain things would happen before the generation that he was addressing passed away.
Mr. Incredible asks:
What things?
What “generation”?
What does “happen” mean in that context?
Luke 21:32 says:
They didn’t happened.
Mr. Incredible asks:
What didn’t “happened”? The generation didn’t “happened”??
Luke 21:32 says:
Jesus lied.
Mr. Incredible says:
According to whose standard? YOURS???
Luke 21:32 says:
Jesus is a liar.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Devil says that, too. You on the Devil’s side? We thought so. Jesus and we, through Him, have defeated your works already. You got no impact on anybody who is born again.
Luke 21:32 says:
That makes Jesus a low-life piece of garbage.
The Devil says that, too. But what he and you say doesn’t matter cuz your works have been defeated already.
Luke 21:32 says:
Maybe he had too much too drink that day.
Mr. Incredible says:
We know that YOU have.
Luke 21:32 says:
Don’t know, don’t care.
Mr. Incredible says:
Well, if you stopped throwin’ back those forties for two seconds, you could find out.
Luke 21:32 says:
He is still a liar and piece of garbage.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Devil says that, too. But your works have already been defeated.
Luke 21:32 says:
But, please spin the words anyway you wish.
Mr. Incredible says:
No need. Jesus “spun” them fine.
Luke 21:32 says:
You will.
Mr. Incredible says:
We don’t need to “spin” His Words. They stand fine on Their own, and you and the Devil cannot tolerate it, though you must.
Luke 21:32 says:
You will make a fool of yourself trying to spin words into some impossible denial.
Mr. Incrfedible says:
A fool for Jesus! What a deal! I’ll take it!
Luke 21:32 says:
Go ahead, make a fool of yourself.
Mr. Incredible says:
We are fools in YOUR eyes, not in God’s. That’s good for us.
Luke 21:32 says:
However, judging by what you have written, you always do.
Mr. Incredible says:
Then, don’t read it.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 16, 2010 at 9:32 am


The Constitution says:Section 7 – Revenue Bills, Legislative Process, Presidential Veto
All bills for raising Revenue shall originate in the House of Representatives; but the Senate may propose or concur with Amendments as on other Bills.
ALL revenue bill must come from the House. The Senate may agree with what the House originates, or it may propose/agree with amendments to the legislation originating in the House. A proposed tax cut is a revenue bill. It deals with revenue. This bill originated in the Senate. It is unconsitutional.
In any case, the new Congress will delete the earmarks, squelch Obammycare and keep DADT.
GO TEA PARTY! NEXT STOP: 2012, WHEN WE TAKE OUT THE REST OF THE TRASH!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 16, 2010 at 9:53 am


Don’t click on anything advertized and entered as a post, such as at 0946. If you do, you’re asking for computer trouble and who knows what else.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 16, 2010 at 3:06 pm


The poster who IDs himself as “Luke 21:32″ doesn’t have the experience with/in/of God through Christ.
Therefore, anything he says that doesn’t align with the Word of God is not credible, nor authoritative. So, nothing he says can be believed; it just so much wind.



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