Lynn v. Sekulow

Lynn v. Sekulow


Ground Zero Hypocrisy

posted by Rev. Barry W. Lynn

Jay,

The “Ground Zero Mosque” debate continues.

I appeared on Fox News Channel’s “The O’Reilly Factor” on Friday evening to discuss the issue with Walid Shoebat – a man who claims he’s a Muslim terrorist turned Christian.

Because of Shoebat’s “previous experience” as a terrorist, he is often interviewed by news outlets as “someone uniquely capable of providing insight into the terrorist mindset.” He’s become quite the favorite of the Right, though since there is no evidence that he ever worked as a terrorist, even some conservatives question his legitimacy.

What’s worse, despite having no “credentials” as a Muslim extremist, Shoebat isn’t all that articulate, either. On Friday, it took me a while to even figure out what his point was. He read from an article allegedly written by Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf in Arabic that Shoebat translated to English.  According to Shoebat, Rauf and other Muslims who want to build the Islamic Cultural Center in Lower Manhattan have a plan: they want to build this structure to help take over America and make us live under Sharia law! But he did concede this transformation is expected through peaceful means. 



I have to admit, Shoebat’s scare tactics are almost comical. The fact
is, fewer than one percent of Americans are Muslim. Of those who are
Muslim, most just want the same rights
that everyone else has to practice their faith under the U.S. Constitution.  Does anyone really believe they will succeed in convincing the other 99 percent of people in this country to follow their religious beliefs? And if they try, how does that make them any different from any other religious group that tries to convince people to change their thinking? This is called “evangelism” or “proselytism” or “mission work.”

As for imposing a worldview through government means, in the United States, that’s the job of the Christian Right. So let’s see, conservative
groups believe it’s okay if fundamentalist Christians push their narrow
worldview on all Americans and be granted government approval,  but no one else should dare follow their
example.  

We don’t even need to look further than this past weekend to prove that.

As you are probably aware, Fox News Channel personality Glenn Beck was
in Washington this weekend, along with Sarah Palin and faux historian
David Barton. They held a rally to “reunite” Americans and honor “our
heroes, our heritage and our future.”

What was plugged as a patriotic and celebratory event turned out to be
mainly an evangelistic rally where Beck told the crowd, “Something that is
beyond man is happening. America today begins to turn back to God.”

Beck went on and on about taking “back” America’s Christian heritage.
Then, the next day, on national television, he questioned President Barack Obama’s religion and accused him of not being a “real” Christian. (The
irony is that Beck, a Mormon, has been accused of the same by fundamentalists who think his faith is a “cult.”)

It’s not surprising that this rally was all about attacking religious
liberty in order to push Christian nation propaganda.  That’s what
Beck, Barton and Palin do regularly.

The Religious Right (and Glenn Beck) can weep all they want that building a
“mosque at Ground Zero” is a way for Muslims to impose their beliefs on
them. However, they should realize that’s something fundamentalist Christians do every
day. Beck and company even take it a step further and insist government funds and public land be used to propagate their religious beliefs. At least the Islamic Center in Lower Manhattan is being built with private dollars on private land.

This “mosque” debate is not likely to end soon; Glenn Beck is not going to eat locusts in the desert and get off television, and Sarah Palin won’t stop fanning the flames of hatred. Beck believes the end of human history is getting closer, perhaps imminent. If the new world gets rid of the hypocrisy over the mosque, and gets Beck and Palin to stop ranting, that might not be a completely bad thing.  



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Dink

posted August 31, 2010 at 5:11 pm


Too bad Mr. Lynn is so consumed by his hate he has lost all credibility with any religious faith except the most unfaithful.



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Mom08

posted August 31, 2010 at 5:46 pm


Rev. Lynn must be a internet variety reverend that did a class online. What religion are you supposed to represent? Your scoffing at Christians who make up the majority of America shows you have no respect or understanding of Christians.



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Hawk

posted August 31, 2010 at 5:53 pm


Rev. Barry Lynn has it right. There is nothing wrong with building a mosque two blocks from Ground Zero, any more than there is anything wrong with building a Catholic church two blocks from an elementary school, or a Christian church near Salem.
All religions have had members of their congregations that have committed atrocities. That does not necessarily make the religion, as a whole, evil/bad/dangerous. In addition, our nation is one of laws and one in which there is a separation of Church and State. If a private landholder wishes to sell their property to someone, they can do so. The government generally has no right to step in and say “No, you can’t do that.” (with very few exceptions).



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Hawk

posted August 31, 2010 at 6:04 pm


@Mom08 – Actually, Rev. Barry Lynn received his B.A. from Dickinson College in Carlisle, Pennsylvania in 1970 and his theology degree from Boston University School of Theology in 1973. He is an ordained minister in the United Church of Christ,which is a mainline Protestant Christian denomination primarily in the Reformed tradition but also historically influenced by Lutheranism (NOT an “internet variety/online reverend/religion).
I found that information, with citations, fairly easily. Perhaps you should do some research yourself, before making wild accusations. Just a thought.



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HG

posted August 31, 2010 at 6:38 pm


Is that Hudson Hawk? You are quite right, Barry Lynn and his supporters(Charles, Rich, and dso490) have it right. Some good comments lately, tho’ difficult to find sometimes amongst all the trash. This subject, like that of the President’s religious beliefs, is a non-issue to all except a loud minority of zealots.
IF A. God, has always existed, per the Bible.
AND B. The Universe is the ONLY thing which has always existed,
per observational fact.
THEN C. The Universe IS God.
It requires imagination of an unknown alternate reality to escape this logic. People who hide under such a blanket of imagination are as visible as the Emperor wearing his “new clothes”. They may pretend to be fully covered, and insist that they are, but it’s true only in the Land of Make-Believe. It is a pretense so powerful, among the over-zealous, that it creates confusion between truth and lie, fact and fiction, reality and illusion. So much so, that they eventually become unable to tell the difference, and refuse to try.



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DCGAL

posted August 31, 2010 at 6:54 pm


It seems Rev. Lynn cannot made an intelligent argument for building the mosque without attacking people and I find the manner he did so unprofessional and full of hate. Worse yet, he does not even discuss the real issue that familes of 9/11 have in regards to building the mosque. Sorry Rev but substantiating your opinion using Glenn Beck and Sarah Palin as examples is just plain ridiculous.



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Henrietta22

posted August 31, 2010 at 7:29 pm


Good article Rev. Lynn. Good comments Hawk and HG.



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Rich

posted August 31, 2010 at 8:12 pm


Dink,
I attended a lecture given by Mr. Lynn once, I found him to be a very gracious, intelligent and even very funny. Please plan on giving a lecture, let us know the details, I will attend and make my own comparison. BTW, we should meet over coffee sometime and discuss your tendency to label his logical arguments as being “consumed by his hate”, seems like a real weird deal to portray logic as hateful. I bet you get real mad when the bank teller explains that if you have $100 dollars in your account, withdraw $50, you then logically only have $50 left. That would certainly be a bank teller “consumed by his hate” and I would let the manager know right away.



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escorts teens

posted August 31, 2010 at 8:24 pm


Pretty interesting place you’ve got here. Thanks for it. I like such topics and everything connected to them. I would like to read a bit more soon.
Joan Kuree



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Charles Thomas

posted August 31, 2010 at 8:39 pm


I’m not an atheist, but I do find it strange that on this blog at least,atheists are defending the concept of religious liberty,
while many of the people who claim to believe in God are arguing against it.



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Rich

posted August 31, 2010 at 8:41 pm


Mom08,
I see that Hawk has politely dismantled your statement. I am sure that it must have been quite an embarrassment to see in black and white how abjectly moronic your words truly were but happily your discomfort was likely greatly reduced by Hawk’s very civil and polite tone.
I was struck by your statement which included the phrase “scoffing at Christians who make up the majority of America…” The ellipsis is this case is used to denote additional moronic yammering, saves me a bunch of copying and pasting of that garbage. But, I digress. The main point here is that I didn’t notice much scoffing done by Mr. Lynn, this is likely due to the fact that there was none. That must be my fault and all, my not being able to let paranoia sweep over me and see things that weren’t there.
I am also a bit curious how some minds work as well so perhaps you can humor me. You seem to take umbrage that the scoffing that you hallucinated was directed at Christians. Is it your contention that one must not scoff at Christians? I do it all the time, I find it entertaining as well as generally salubrious.



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DCGAL

posted August 31, 2010 at 9:13 pm


I find it incredibly boring that you insult one another, politely or not, intellectually or not you are still not willing to discuss the real issue with the mosque. If you are so impressed with Rev Lynn’s article then why are you not discussing the article instead of belittling one another? Is it religious liberty or disrespect for those who lost their lives. Personally I believe whole heartedly that there are underlying motives for the selection of the location especially given that the developers were offered free land to move it and yet they chose not to. Given the taxes they owe, why would they turn down such an offer from the state? I smell a rat.



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Rich

posted August 31, 2010 at 9:27 pm


DCGAL,
Your turn.
To you it “seems” that Rev. Lynn cannot make an argument without attacking people etc, etc. Yes, I can imagine that it “seems” that way to you. It seems that way to you because your judgment is likely impaired by overlong exposure to cult mentalities, robbing you of any vestigial ability to think that you may have once had.
I am sorry that you found his article “full of hate”, I didn’t but I have real world standards for assessing the presence of hate.
Let’s see. You also blather on about how Mr. Lynn never addressed the emotional feelings that relatives of the victims have about the proposed mosque. He has in the past but was tackling other issues in this latest post. Which, was nice of him and all considering that the legal right to build a mosque 2 blocks away from Ground Zero is not legally dependent upon the feelings of family members anymore than building a Christian church in Salem near Gallows Hill is dependent upon the feelings of local Wiccans.
Sure, I wish that rather than building a mosque that the space was used to house a Darwin exhibit or a museum holding gory dioramas depicting the carnage of the Inquisition. Perhaps we could settle on a museum extolling the medical marvels of Christian Scientists.



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HG

posted August 31, 2010 at 9:32 pm


DCGal: “…the developers were offered free land to move it and yet they chose not to. …I smell a rat.”
And Rosa Parks was offered an acceptable seat at the rear of the bus she could have taken. There’s definately a rat, evidenced by droppings left on this blog.



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Rich

posted August 31, 2010 at 11:31 pm


DCGAL,
Incredibly boring? I am always amazed that people respond to posts that bore them but whatever, I try not to spend too much time trying to fathom what goes on in the brains of believers. I do apologize if anything I wrote was considered as polite, I am still a bit angry about that whole Inquisition deal. You know some people, they just hold a grudge forever, just like God does with unbelievers.
However, back to the fun stuff. I am wondering, are the hijackers the ones building the mosque? I ask cause I thought they all died in the act of committing mass murder. The reason why I am a bit picky about that point is that I have a hard time saying that those who didn’t commit the crime should be denied their freedom of religion because some violent zealots perpetrated a horrific crime. You ask if it is a case of religious liberty or disrespect for those who died. Couldn’t tell you. Is it suddenly standard practice in America that those who seek to build a church must disclose their innermost motives to the paranoid members of the bigger cult? You know, now that I think about it I think we should develop some mind-reading device and point it at Ted Haggard, we just might be able to understand cases like his and learn to de-Christianize closeted gays.
Now, I think it makes sense to point at this juncture in our amiable conversation that I think Islam is a vile and sick religion that turns normal children into horrible and evil humans who recite verse rather than think. Of course, I think that about all religions so don’t start doing any Christian-esque happy dance.
As to your “I smell a rat” deal, hopefully the developers had attorneys that understand our Constitution better than your average X-tian fundy and advised them to not pursue that path. They would have known that any land deal from the State of New York would have been scrutinized for likely Church/State violations, governments just can’t go giving away public assets to any old cult in a bind. Besides all that, I don’t think they were ever actually offered “free” land anyway, not sure where you got that. FOX News?



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Zarullo Barquhat

posted August 31, 2010 at 11:45 pm


The author is just as biased and polarized as those he is criticizing. Let’s have some objective commentary for a change! Of course, just like the right, he can’t see his own shortcomings….



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HG

posted September 1, 2010 at 1:06 am


Charles Thomas: “I’m not an atheist, but I do find it strange that on this blog at least,atheists are defending the concept of religious liberty, while many of the people who claim to believe in God are arguing against it.”
I’m not an atheist either, claiming only that the Universe has never expressed a desire for worship, but I think the simple explanation is that those who don’t believe in any God feel most in need of the constitutional protections of religious liberty. It is a little odd, granted, but then, so is the Constitution of the United States.
The uproar over the belief, by many, that Obama “is Muslim” should never have arisen in a country, such as ours, which has no religious test. Imagine if he was suspected of being atheistic, and whether it would be any better accepted at this point in time. NOT. Religious militancy seems to arise in response to religious militancy. “Either your with us, or your against us” becomes the ultimate mentality in such contests.



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Rich

posted September 1, 2010 at 2:17 am


HG,
I find your comment that “those who don’t believe in any God feel most in need of the constitution protections…” to be spot on and well said. As an atheist, the unfortunate entanglement of government with religion has always appeared in sharp focus to me. Unfortunately, these entanglements have never been anything more than an accurate reflection of some tribalistic will of the people, a will that thwarts the intent of our Constitution, a document written in one of those rare moments when people momentarily listened to “the better angels” of their nature.
Sadly, these ongoing encroachments have now allowed people to feel secure in their insistence that this is solely a Christian nation. Now, we feel that we have some right to question Obama’s religion in order to verify that he is a member of our tribe. If he is not a Christian, we presume he is not one of us. Our sense of tribalism has now grown to the point that we are now insensible and doing what Americans once vowed to never do, demand a particular religion leave town in a figurative sense. We are collectively shouting “You are not welcome here!”



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DCGAL

posted September 1, 2010 at 8:13 am


I challenged you to discuss the real issues instead of berating one another and now I must belong to a cult, have no real world experience in hate, x-tian fundy…
I’m sorry you are all wrong. My brother died in the towers.
Shame on all of you for your assumptions, your cruelty, your obvious hate. Technology has certainly surpassed your humanity.



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Alicia

posted September 1, 2010 at 10:19 am


Before posting another comment under an Internet discussion board, I highly recommend reading this article by Alan Jacobs, from Big Questions Online:
http://www.bigquestionsonline.com/columns/alan-jacobs/the-online-state-of-nature
Excerpt:
“I have thought a lot about why people get so hostile online, and I have come to believe it is primarily because we live in a society with a hypertrophied sense of justice and an atrophied sense of humility and charity, to put the matter in terms of the classic virtues.”
Perhaps we should all aim for more charity to those who disagree with us and more humility about what we think we know, because I think Mr. Jacobs is right that both charity and humility are sadly lacking in our public discussions.



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Grumpy Old Person

posted September 1, 2010 at 10:27 am


DCGAL,
“It seems Rev. Lynn cannot made an intelligent argument for building the mosque”
Um, religious freedom is the “intelligent argument for building the mosque”. Why are you against religious freedom?
“…without attacking people and I find the manner he did so unprofessional and full of hate.”
I found no examples of “unprofessional[ism]” nor of “hate”. Care to supply the examples that made you so enraged?
“Worse yet, he does not even discuss the real issue that familes of 9/11 have in regards to building the mosque.”
And that “real issue” would be … ? Or, are you simply forgetting that many Muslim americans also died or had family members die in both the attack and in the first response? Why does your ‘grief’ trump theirs? Or their religious freedoms?



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Grumpy Old Person

posted September 1, 2010 at 10:36 am


“you are still not willing to discuss the real issue with the mosque”
I haven’t read a post of yours, DCGAL, that actually articulates what you ‘think’ is the “real issue with the mosque” – apart from your own particular grief. It is a grief shared by many Muslim Americans too. But religious liberty is Constitutionally guaranteed to ALL citizens, even the ones you don’t like.
IMO, religious liberty is the “real issue” – one with which it appears YOU don’t agree.



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Rich

posted September 1, 2010 at 11:15 am


DCGAL,
Your sudden call for civility seems a bit curious and even more disingenuous. I find myself thinking of the idiomatic expression ‘he can sure dish it out but can’t take it”.
How did you start your discussion on this topic. Let’s see:
“Rev. Lynn cannot made an intelligent argument…”
“without attacking people”
“he did so unprofessional”
“full of hate”
“he does not even discuss the real issue”
“is just plain ridiculous”
Wow, I get it. You get to come here and make outlandish and incendiary statements, demand that the world bend to your call for religious intolerance and then whine that you are not being treated fairly.
Look, I am sorry that your brother was a victim of murder committed by people who believe in God but the people building the new mosque are not the ones who did that. It doesn’t make sense to limit the rights of those who had nothing to do with the act of terrorism. As well, the implications of one religious group bullying another religious group into bending to its will are pretty darn frightening.
Finally, there are lots of people who have been victims of Christian zealotry, it certainly has never been confined to Islam.



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Don Colibri

posted September 1, 2010 at 12:48 pm


Sarah Palin and Glen Beck are “fanning the flames of hatred” in your country, “Reverend?” Huh! As I watch the American political scene from here in Mexico City, the only people I see “fanning the flames of hatred” are the left-wing liberal “progressive elite” like youself, Sir.
The 60% of Americans who agree with “the tea-parties” and wish to reign in the skyrocketing deficit in your country before it destroys their gandchildren’s future cannot be, are not permitted to be: “concerned citizens” in the atmosphere of loathing and hatred which you and your cohorts have generated. No, they are only “permitted” to be “race-hating, redneck, right-wing, extremist nut-jobs.”
The 70% of Americans, including Democrats as well as Independents and Republicans who have voiced concern for the mosque planned at ground zero (and yes, idiots, one or two blocks down the street is STILL “at ground zero!”) are likewise forbidden by “their betters” such as youself to be sensitive to the victims and their families or worried about the funding or concerned about the “moderate” Imam’s support for Sharia Law (you know, “Reverend,” that Muslim system of “law” which permits the stoning of 14 year old girls, the fatal whipping of an 80 year old women, the legal murder of any who leave Islam, the execution of any missionary who preaches a different faith, the amputation of an 8 year old’s hand etc, etc, etc!) Apparently as I read your hate-filled columns, these decent and concerned American citizens have NO RIGHTS whatsoever to be “decent” or “concerned.”
According to YOU, Sir they are only permitted to be “racist, hate-filled, Islamophobic, fundamentalist, anti-American, anti-constitutional, knee-jerk yokels and lackies of a Great Right-Wing Christian conspiracy.”
Those 65% of Americans who support the attempts by Arizona to control illegal immigration and the huge drug trade which is killing the state of Arizona are NOT PERMITTED to be “concerned law-abiding patriotic citizens”. According to your polluted “progressive” view point this vast majority (a MAJORITY, which by the way includes ONE-THIRD of Mexican Americans!) are only allowed to be: “xenophobic, racist, hill-billy, nazi, KKK loving, gun-toting yahoos!”
Reading your hate-filled editorial “Reverend,” (and the even worse ones of so many other liberal “intellectual” elitists) I am strongly reminded of the brilliant words spoken over 50 years ago by US Army attorney, Joseph Welch speaking to Senator Joseph McCarthy:
“Have you no sense of decency, sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?”
Well, Reverend, have you?



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Tim

posted September 1, 2010 at 1:42 pm


This “reverend” has lost all credibility once he starts bashing the Christian Right. Will the good “reverend” please explain to us what the Christian Left stands for? Reverend Wright? Flager? Jim Wallis?
I find it disgusting that a man of the cloth stands up for a religion that mutilates young girls, stones women, homosexuals, tortures, maims, enslaves, and kills and bashes his own religion. What are you guilty about?



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Robert Light

posted September 1, 2010 at 2:50 pm


Unfortunately Mr. Lynn is living in a make believe world where Islam is “a religion of peace”. Islam is more of a political movement than a religion.
This is what most Americans understand and this is why most Americans oppose the building of the ground zero mosque.
If Islam were simply a religion, all Americans (including this one) would support them no matter where they decided to build.
It took Christianity over 1500 years to rid itself of it’s political infrastructure (ie: inquisitions, crusades, ghettos). It is not surprising that Islam is still stuck in that phase of development.



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Keith Davies

posted September 1, 2010 at 3:32 pm


n regards to a letter sent to you by Barry Lynn whom like a typical liberal thinks that we are all dumb and he is “articulate”. In that interview that he is referring to at one point, Lynn was not even able to say the Imam’s name and called him Imam Raul. And instead of addressing the quotes I gave regarding Raul’s (Feisal Abdul Rauf) statements in Arabic, he denied them, although he never read them or heard of them. Well, Rauf’s quote can be found on Al-Ghad Newspaper in Jordan. So the “educated brilliant liberal” can use “google translate” and see for himself to cross examine the suspected witness.
However, since I can articulate the Arabic better then google, I provided exhibit “A”, the quote by Lynn’s defendant Imam of Ground Zero Mosque:
“People asked me right after the 9/11 attack as to why do movements with political agendas carry [Islamic] religious names? Why call it ‘Muslim Brotherhood’ or ‘Hezbollah (Party of Allah)’ or ‘Hamas’ or ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’? I answer them this—that the trend towards Islamic law and justice begins in religious movements, because secularism had failed to deliver what the Muslim wants, which is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
He said “ The only law that the Muslim needs exists already in the Koran and the Hadith.”
From an article titled “Sharing The Essence Of Our Beliefs” by Feisal Abdul Rauf, Al-Ghad Newspaper in Jordan, 5/9/2009
In fact, I have a litany of statements by Rauf (exhibit “B”) that can easily convict Lynn’s client.
Finally, Rauf is on trial, not me. I am not an attorney, but during my service on jury duty I could tell a lousy defense lawyer—he always attacks witnesses instead of refuting the evidence.
Another suggestion for Lynn, if he wants to debate me on my “terror credentials” may I f



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Catherine

posted September 1, 2010 at 3:55 pm


Rich,
I think at best Mr. Lynn owns the label of universalist, really not representing the Bible at all, or the Christian faith. From previous comments, I believe you are more versed in the Bible then him. I think the real argument is the illogical nature of Mr. Lynn’s comments. The Bible is truth, logic, and sequential. Mr. Lynn just fails to subscribe, uphold, or adhere to any of the principles.
Shoebat is stating the facts. Lynn is angry and bitter, because he doesn’t want to hear the truth.



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Catherine

posted September 1, 2010 at 4:18 pm


Hawk,
Just because someone holds a theology degree, it doesn’t necessarily make him a Christian. He may have the “head” knowledge of scripture, and may even be able to quote it front & backwards. It means nothing without living the Word. I believe Mr. Lynn’s deficit is of the heart.



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Erene

posted September 1, 2010 at 4:39 pm


This man is a hipocrite and certainly not representative of a man of the cloth. I have heard his opinion for years and he is not a Christian. Mr. Shoebat is way above him in integrity and courage.



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Pete

posted September 1, 2010 at 4:53 pm


It amazes me to read comments by people who elevate their own brand of religion above others, claiming a closeness to God while denying that closeness when claimed by others.
“God loves me more than you, cause I understand Him better and you don’t know His true Word like I do.”
What a crock!



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Crystal

posted September 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm


“You will know them by their fruits.” Matthew 7:16
This man’s fruits reveal he is not a true Christian, and he obviously knows nothing about the religion of Islam, Muslims or, about Walid Shobat! His reference to the words, “new world”, make me think he’s all for a “One World Religion” with a “One World Government”! Me thinks thou is a Wolf in sheep’s clothing…



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Sue

posted September 1, 2010 at 5:08 pm


How dare Mr. Lynn talk against Mr. Shoebat a great man of God.



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Pete

posted September 1, 2010 at 5:10 pm


He’s Bat-shoe crazy!



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Jill

posted September 1, 2010 at 6:11 pm


Good grief, Charlie Brown..



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Sue

posted September 1, 2010 at 7:10 pm


Walid Shoebat is warning us against the coming of a New World Order, a One World Government and a One World Religon. What are you going to do Mr. Lynn when Islam comes for you. Open your heart Mr Lynn before its too late, remember when Noah tried to warn the world against the world wide flood, well so is Walid Shoebat warning us against Islam.



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Rich

posted September 1, 2010 at 7:29 pm


Catherine,
I am pretty certain that Mr. Lynn is far better versed in the Bible than I. I am alway surprised that he draws as much animosity as he does; he is thoughtful, well-spoken and generally seems like a pretty fair human. I understand that people may have theological differences with him but I don’t see him do anything but call for Separation, a legal tradition that may not be loved by all but one that is certainly not some wild flight of irrationality.
It is only the unrelenting of extreme religious partisanship that continue to make the protection of separation an ongoing battle. If everyone would simply practice their religion, not expect government funding or official endorsements and realize that our laws need to be secular I think we could all get along. It sure ain’t the atheists calling for laws that violate separation, we just want our government neutral. We insist on neutrality because we know that it is the best possible method to avoid religious strife that can escalate beyond control. Every year we have to endure zealots asking that our government officially endorse religious faith by declaring a National Day of Prayer, why do we never hear of atheist groups strong-arming our Congress into declaring a “Shun Prayer, Practice Critical Thinking Day”? Why do I as a parent have to explain to my children that the “In God We Trust” on our coins really doesn’t represent us but is rather an insertion of religion into our government by those abusing their majoritarian power? Same question for the ‘one nation, under God’ corruption of the Pledge.
As for your assertion that the Bible is “truth, logical and sequential” it doesn’t take long to invalidate that notion. Right out of the gates in Genesis we have night and day before the sun was made, one or two major issues right there. So much for being sequential.
Let’s look at truth in the Bible:
1st Kings 4:26 Solomon had 40,000 stalls of horses
2nd Chronicles 9:25 Solomon had 4,000 stalls of horses
Okay, I get it that it is a typo but that is the problem with claiming the Bible is the inerrant word of God. Once you got one error, that whole concept is now circling the drain.
A more popular verse used to show that the Bible is not inerrant is 1st Kings 7:24 where Pi is computed to be 3. Sorry but there goes that truth thing again. Yeah, we all know that these folks didn’t have digital measurements but we once again arrive at the inescapable fact that the Bible contains errors. There are lots of apologists who try and worm their way out of this but to no avail.
Sadly, we disagree as to the value of the Bible, I see it as an anchor to a primitive past, dead weight that we have to carry around. Many, see it as a something totally sacred. The only solution is to let each person see it as they will. Since we are all paying for the government, the only solution is to have government stay completely away from the issue, neither recommend or denigrate. However, it seems that the route most Americans prefer is to completely ignore the minority and then just happily roll over them.



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Carole

posted September 1, 2010 at 9:09 pm


There`s a bit of a difference evangelizing and propagating Christianity and doing the same with Islam!
How can you compare the two?
Islam is an evil ideology that preaches hate towards anyone who isn`t a muslim whereas Christianity is the complete opposite, “Love thy neighbour” etc.
Islam is the anti-thesis of God`s word, the Bible1



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Charles Thomas

posted September 1, 2010 at 9:18 pm


Some of the opponents of Park51 on this blog are trying to discredit Mr.Lynn’s position by attacking his religious and political affilations,as if that is relevant.
A number of prominent conservatives have also spoken out against the ACLJ’s attempt to use zoning laws as a pretext for limiting the religious freedom of Muslims.
Are Maggie Gallagher or Orin Hatch left-wing progressive elites?
Given the paranoid nature of American politics,I’m sure many think Gallagher and Hatch are Islamic operatives.
So Barry Lynn is a liberal.
What of it?
I’m not a liberal,not in any contemporary meaning of the word,but I agree with Lynn on this issue.
This is not a controversy between left and right.
This is a disagreement between people who support religious freedom for all citizens,and those who think First Amendment protections should apply only to people whose religions meet majority approval.



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Catherine

posted September 1, 2010 at 9:38 pm


Rich,
Yes, we disagree. It’s also quite obvious I wouldn’t stand a chance in a debate with you, so I won’t even attempt. After all, the Bible is believed “by faith”.
I understand that you refer to yourself an atheist, but I also think you have questions about your position. If you didn’t, why would you read and know so much about the scriptures? Didn’t Darwin do the same, and even change his mind towards the end of his life? Didn’t he recant his previous theory?
There is still hope for you Rich. :)
How can someone possibly look at the beautiful Smoky Mountains, and fail to acknowledge that there is a Supreme Creator? Who created such majestic scenery? What do you think when you look at your children?
Trust me Rich, everyone believes and worships something. Whether it be academia, money, status, sports, work, relationships, nature, self…don’t be fooled….you are not an atheist. You have a god. You just fail to acknowledge and worship the One and Only true God of the Bible.
We have one thing in common. We will both die one day. And as we march towards eternity, I guess the real question is: where will you spend yours?
Love Never Fails.



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HG

posted September 1, 2010 at 9:43 pm


Rich, so what do you think of my application of the communicative property to logic? (If A=B, AND B=C, THEN A=C; where A is God, B is the property of having always existed, and C is The Universe)
I’m not saying A exists, only that IF A exists THEN It IS The Universe. The only ones who have ever suggested or demanded that It requires worship have been people; in the many different books with many differing requirements as to how best to please It.
If It knows anything as a single entity, it would stand to reason that It knows everything; with each of us being part of It. No, at this point, I don’t think The Universe, as one entity, is sentient…but It could be. If so, it would point to pre-destiny from the moment of the expansion, wouldn’t it?



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Dian

posted September 1, 2010 at 9:45 pm


I don’t know Rev.Lynn’s theology but he doesn’t impress me as a true Christ like man of God. Walid Shoebat is a man of integrity and a Christian.I know for a fact that he was a terrorist and understands Islam from an ex Muslim’s viewpoint. We Westerners have no concept of what the Islamic ideology represents. I challenge Christians, athiests, non conformists, left wing politicians, right wing politicians and Americans in general to study the religion of Islam. I have and it is not a religion of ” can’t we all just love,love,love.”It is a religion of LAW and it desires to dominate the world. If you resist, you will suffer.



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ds0490

posted September 1, 2010 at 10:54 pm


“Love Never Fails.”
Was it love that drove Eric Rudolph, a Christian to bomb abortion clinics and the Olympic Park in Atlanta? Was it love that drove Scott Roeder to walk into a church and murder an abortion doctor in cold blood? Was it love that drove Paul Hill to go to another abortion doctor’s home and kill him?
Was it love that pitted Protestant against Catholic in Ireland for generations? Was it love that motivated Rev. Richard Furman to petition the governor of South Carolina in the 1860s to not consider releasing slaves in that state?
And how many Catholic priests were motivated by love as they molested boys and girls in their congregations?
Christianity…Islam…two sides of the same manipulative, mind-numbing coin used to keep adherents in line and enemies at bay.
But of course, Carole, you will tell us that the folks doing this were not real Christians, and you will dissect and parse the Bible in an attempt to prove it, all the while ignoring Muslim clerics and scholars who try to tell you the same thing about their sacred books and literature.
No, Carole, you are every bit as guilty of the sins of Christians as the Park51 folks are guilty of the sins of Muslims throughout the world.
Religion…we can do without it, thank you.



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Catherine

posted September 1, 2010 at 11:14 pm


ds-who said the persons you mentioned are Christians? I didn’t.
All you mentioned were fanatic people who murder, and pedophile priests who kill the soul of children.
So, to answer your question: “was it love that drove…”?
No.
It was Love that drove Jesus to willingly take the nails in his hands for you and me.



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HG

posted September 1, 2010 at 11:30 pm


In other words, some who lay claim to the relgion but adhere to it differently may be criminals; and it’s not possible to tell which ones until they commit a crime. The same can be said of followers of Islamic religions, yet many here see no problem with painting them all with one brush. I wouldn’t change the Constitution for any of them, that way we focus on what people do rather than what they think.



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Mary

posted September 1, 2010 at 11:39 pm


This is what the Bible says (about guys like Mr. Lynn)
“A house cannot be divided, less the house not built on Me”.
So there.
Psalm 7 also says: Seven things GOD hates…
“a brother who causes division, one who has swift feet to
run and cause destruction”.
I noticed that all who agree with him are atheists anyway.
This qualifies Mr. Lynn and being a true spiritual pimp.
Good luck to him on Judgement Day.



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Rich

posted September 2, 2010 at 12:12 am


HG,
I like it and the economy in which you express. I view the universe that way myself, it is the sum of all that exists and always has existed. If there were to be a god, he would by definition be part of the universe, not some external force. Even better though, I like the observation that the universe has never requested that we worship it. And, since we would be part of the universe, such an act would be really pathologically narcissistic, an attribute I would be reluctant to ascribe to the known forms of matter. As well, I certainly would never hang that attribute on the kinds of matter we haven’t discovered yet, brown, dark or otherwise.
The whole thing reminded me of something Jefferson once wrote about spirits. He concluded that if they were in fact truly immaterial they could have no impact upon us. That is a poor paraphrase but I think he was tuning into the idea that if spirits were not part of our universe we need not concern ourselves with them.
Now to the tougher meat, predestination, sometimes called rigid determinism. That is precisely where I camp and have been enjoying the view from this campsite since I was a young high school student. One cannot know such a thing and I don’t operate in the belief arena but based upon what we know about the universe, I can see no way around predestination, each femtosecond being the sum of the prior physicality of the prior femtosecond. Waves or particles, neither makes a difference in the way this would work. Each particle or quantum of the universe is subject to the laws of physics, laws which we may not yet know, but subject just the same. No particle can defy the built-in operating rules of the universe. Once present in this universe, they must begin reacting with all other particles in ways that would be precisely predictable. Of course, the math involved in tracking down each particle or quantum and analyzing what would happen to that particle for the next femtosecond boggles the mind, one would need a lot of calculator batteries just to do the most gossamer wisp of matter. Regardless, each moment in time is the sum of the prior moment. Stephen Hawking and similar physicists are perpetually toying with the concept of matter popping into existence and out which would seem to undermine rigid determination but I would guess that we just don’t have a complete enough understanding of these theoretic events to see that they too conform to rigid rules of physics and would therefore be subject to prediction. One thing leads to another, no exceptions.
Of course, you don’t need particle determinism to get to pre-destination. The religious with their idea of omniscient gods should really take to this like a duck takes to water. An example:
It is the year 1776. I am in Philadelphia having a lovely evening with God and Thomas Jefferson. Thomas likes God but considers him generally a bit impersonal and decides to leave. That leaves me and God to continue our chat, we cover a lot of topics but avoid his sordid obsession with human genitalia. I ask God if there will be anyone who will relate this conversation to anyone in the future, say on 9/1/2010. Gods says, “Listen up cowboy, I am omniscient, I know everything in the most minute detail from the beginning to the end of time. There will be a guy who goes by the name Rich and on that date he will post such a comment.” So God, knew what I was going to do at this precise moment, he knew precisely what I was going to be thinking, etc, etc. If God knew it was going to happen well in advance, the whole thing is predetermined, I have no way available to not do what God knew I was going to do. If I did do something contrary to his prediction, well, time to upgrade to a better god.



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Rich

posted September 2, 2010 at 12:49 am


Catherine,
First, let me assure you that I have no questions about my position. Second, I thought for a bit on how to respond to you. Normally, I would tackle the items on your list one by one. This evening I thought I would instead just grab something from the past as a response. A couple of years ago a friend of mine asked for contributions to a private newsletter, just a collection of thoughts from a group of diverse folks and circulated just for the heck of it. The topic for that month was religion. I copied a few of my paragraphs that discuss how I saw religion as a very young man:
“My first exposure to religion was that of being kidnapped by my parents each Sunday morning and transported to St. Paul’s Episcopal church in Kennewick. The hours of tedium glued to a church pew were torture to me. I suffered not simply because of the comic rituals, generalized brain-rape or the ill-fitting suits with clip-on ties, but because there was a cemetery next to the church. That was where the real religious experience was, large maple and walnut trees waiting to be climbed, steeple chases through the tombstones, and artillery battles with sycamore balls. Once the sermons were done and the doors opened, my buddies and I sprinted to the tombstones. We never stopped to fret about the formaldehyde-laced corpses in the very graves we were dancing upon. Somehow, even as a nerdy child in my little JC Penney suits, I had unknowingly stumbled upon the fact that real religion was the disorganized goings-on out there in the green and not the senseless yammerings before the cross. Of course, I had no way to articulate such a thing back then. I didn’t know the word anathema. And, being a child, I had no idea that I had actually already figured something out for myself.
Later in my early teens, I started to grumble about the boredom and my generalized misery at church. I still don’t know how I pulled it off, obnoxious combativeness I suppose, but in my family of seven, I was somehow the only one excused from having to go to church. I was free of religion from that point on. No looking back, not a drop of doubt nor a moment of regret.”



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HG

posted September 2, 2010 at 1:45 am


Rich, okay, having fun so I press ‘continue’ as was, apparently, fore-ordained.
“What is, is” has become my mantra lately, and I have no doubt that it’s always been, and continues to be, a product of what was–going back to the femtosecond prior to 1(-43 power)seconds of the expansion. There was no time, as such, prior to the expansion when the forces were mysteriously combined in a singularity. But, what of that singularity? There is some evidence, us (and I doubt we are the only representation in the Universe), that the singularity was possessed of sentient life. Do you get any inkling that the singularity exercised intent, or deliberate control in the expansion?
Is a larger part of that sentience concentrated elsewhere with the power to sense all that it has become? Does It, like us, know of its impending demise and question Its renewal?



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Rich

posted September 2, 2010 at 2:01 am


Mary,
I really liked your line about Barry Lynn being a “true spiritual pimp”, it was full of vicious venom and vitriolic vituperation. Good job! Your Christian demeanor speaks for itself.
However, every now and then it is a good idea to take a look at the accuracy of statements every now and then, you know, sort of like an audit. Where shall we start?
“I noticed that all who agree with him are atheists anyway.”
Really, you know that? Even though many have repeatedly stated that they believe in God you have some magic power to see the untruth of their words? My compliments, not only are you full of vicious venom but you also do magic tricks.
“This is what the Bible says (about guys like Mr. Lynn)
“A house cannot be divided, less the house not built on Me”.
So there.”
You know, I really wished you had used an exclamation point. Without it, one just doesn’t really pick up the childish petulance that you were attempting to display at that point. It would have been much more intellectually devastating to Mr. Lynn had you written “So there!”. Sadly, I know of no punctuation tool that would have conveyed the sound of you stamping your foot simultaneously, now that would have really taught Mr. Lynn a lesson he wouldn’t soon forget! (Did you notice how that exclamation point really added that extra bit of visceral disgust?)
And a final BTW, maybe it is just me, maybe I am being picky but when I deal with the inerrant word of God I always make it a habit to check my sources. You know, quoting God wrong really ticks him off. That whole Psalm 7 thing you referenced, well you get a big ‘Fail’ on that, but that is ok, we all figure you are here just to spew some good old fashioned Christian self-righteousness and not really make any sense. It is worthwhile to point out though that if you even had the smallest scintilla of knowledge of the book you just love to quote and shoot your mouth off about you would perhaps of known that the verse you quoted comes from Proverbs 6. Keeping your trend alive and going strong, you were wrong about the numbers, it is ‘six things the Lord hates’, not seven. Math is tricky isn’t it? Oddly, there are seven things that God finds detestable, two of which are “haughty eyes, a lying tongue”. Man, we have all met women like that! So you know what? I am down with God on that one.
In spite of the errors in accuracy, your claims to be a mind reader, your non-sensical language, and your apparent inability to quote with any precision what is probably the only book you have ever pretended to read…Good post!



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Rich

posted September 2, 2010 at 2:41 am


HG,
Well, I must be remiss on staying up to date with cosmology. I haven’t come across any speculation about sentient life within the singularity. Be a good trick though.
I do seem to recall reading a sci-fi novel, Greg Bear I think, where the literary schtick was that some advanced civilization figured out a way to stay outside of the singularity for an upcoming Big Bang. The deal was that they wanted to engineer a new set of physics as they coalesced out during Big Bang time. One of those things where they really did want Pi to be 3.00 and opposite angles not to be equal. I don’t recall why they had such problems with our geometry. Aliens tend to complain about everything I suppose.
The Big Bang being triggered from within does sound like sci-fi to me. When you think about it, there would be no reason to rule out such goofy speculation. The physics inside would be beyond our ability to accurately determine, after all, the laws of physics didn’t come into existence until shortly after the fireworks began. Besides that, who knows what goes on in a singularity, it just might be real nice in there. It might have been risky though. If you live inside a singularity and decide to hit the eject button and start a new universe and all that, you would be gambling in a near suicidal fashion that the physics of your new digs would be the kind of place you would like.



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HG

posted September 2, 2010 at 3:19 am


Rich, glad I refrained from a response to Mary, yours was so much better than mine would’ve been.
Yes, a sentient singularity is a good trick, but as you say–it could be very cozy in there. I guess if I’m willing to go that far, I might as well theorize that the Universe is an upload. I’ll stay with ‘what is, is’ for now.



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HG

posted September 2, 2010 at 5:02 am


Rich, clarify your understanding of things for me a little, please, as I hope it may firm the structure of my own.
You are convinced every action, including random mutation, was set to occur by the actions preceding it? Dominoes predestined to fall precisely so since the expansion, and time, began?
No scoffing here, it is more than plausible considering everything recompressed into when time was a non-issue. It’s difficult to remove the concepts of ‘random’, and ‘unforseeable repercussions'; to think everything is the way it is because it HAS to be, and was simply always going to be.



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max

posted September 2, 2010 at 7:44 am


Walid Shoebat responds to this
http://www.shoebat.com/blog/archives/514



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max

posted September 2, 2010 at 7:47 am


In regards to a letter sent to you by Barry Lynn whom like a typical liberal thinks that we are all dumb and he is “articulate”. In that interview that he is referring to at one point, Lynn was not even able to say the Imam’s name and called him Imam Raul. And instead of addressing the quotes I gave regarding Raul’s (Feisal Abdul Rauf) statements in Arabic, he denied them, although he never read them or heard of them. Well, Rauf’s quote can be found on Al-Ghad Newspaper in Jordan. So the “educated brilliant liberal” can use “google translate” and see for himself to cross examine the suspected witness.
However, since I can articulate the Arabic better then google, I provided exhibit “A”, the quote by Lynn’s defendant Imam of Ground Zero Mosque.
“People asked me right after the 9/11 attack as to why do movements with political agendas carry [Islamic] religious names? Why call it ‘Muslim Brotherhood’ or ‘Hezbollah (Party of Allah)’ or ‘Hamas’ or ‘Islamic Resistance Movement’? I answer them this—that the trend towards Islamic law and justice begins in religious movements, because secularism had failed to deliver what the Muslim wants, which is life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
He said “ The only law that the Muslim needs exists already in the Koran and the Hadith.”
From an article titled “Sharing The Essence Of Our Beliefs” by Feisal Abdul Rauf, Al-Ghad Newspaper in Jordan, 5/9/2009
In fact, I have a litany of statements by Rauf (exhibit “B”) that can easily convict Lynn’s client.
Finally, Rauf is on trial, not me. I am not an attorney, but during my service on jury duty I could tell a lousy defense lawyer—he always attacks witnesses instead of refuting the evidence.
Another suggestion for Lynn, if he wants to debate me on my “terror credentials” may I first suggest for him to learn a thing or two on what it means to call oneself “reverend”?
Sincerely
Walid Shoebat



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Catherine

posted September 2, 2010 at 8:21 am


Rich,
Wow, that is a sad experience. Unfortunately, I can understand and completely relate. I grew up in similar conditions in the catholic church. Forced to go to catechism, then to mass EVERY Sunday, only to hear the excruciatingly redundant, ritualistic hypocrisy. (not grouping all catholic churches, but this particular one had a bad priest who was later “transferred” to another parish to continue his wicked and criminal behavior.)
In the end, I was baptized, had my first communion, and confirmation at the same church, St. Michaels.
Confirmed dead.
A child remembering, week after week, the same. And week after week, looking up to see Jesus was still hanging on the crucifix, dead.
Not until I became an adult did I realize that Jesus was no longer dead on the cross, but alive. He had risen. He’s alive and will return.
I believe.
I found love and forgiveness in the Cross, and most importantly–no religion, no condemnation, no hate or judgement. But instead, only Love and saving Grace. A personal relationship with God through Christ.
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life”.
(John 3:16)



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Catherine

posted September 2, 2010 at 8:38 am


Maranatha! :)



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ds0490

posted September 2, 2010 at 12:08 pm


Catherine, who apparently is the gatekeeper for the Christian faith: “ds-who said the persons you mentioned are Christians? I didn’t.”
Your Holiness, I didn’t realize that people had to get your permission to come into the Christian fold. I suppose that their mere statements regarding their personal beliefs and faith are insufficient for Catherinism Christianity.
Tell me, what is the requirements according to your devine Self for admission into the faith?



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Catherine

posted September 2, 2010 at 2:12 pm


ds–not sure why your so angry with me, but I have never known a Christian to murder, terrorize, or molest anyone. That’s the point I was trying to make.
Again, its easy to label, but the true test is a person’s life; their actions, and how they treat others.
Only God is Holy and devine. I am just a filthy sinner saved by the Blood of Jesus.
-Isaiah 64:6



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Kpax

posted September 2, 2010 at 3:05 pm


I saw no evidence that would convict anybody of anything, nor any evidence of “terrorism credentials” in Max’s, Bat-shoe’s, rambling diatribe.



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ds0490

posted September 2, 2010 at 4:53 pm


Catherine exercises a convenient out with: “ds–not sure why your so angry with me, but I have never known a Christian to murder, terrorize, or molest anyone. That’s the point I was trying to make.”
Strange, but many Muslims make similar claims about those who terrorize in the name of their religion. Tell me, do you accept their convenient statement, or are only Christians eligible to take this escape route from responsibility?



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ds0490

posted September 2, 2010 at 4:56 pm


Catherine, I want to thank you for demonstrating quite ably the “no true Scotsman” logical fallacy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
“Imagine Hamish McDonald, a Scotsman, sitting down with his Glasgow Morning Herald and seeing an article about how the “Brighton Sex Maniac Strikes Again.” Hamish is shocked and declares that “No Scotsman would do such a thing.” The next day he sits down to read his Glasgow Morning Herald again and this time finds an article about an Aberdeen man whose brutal actions make the Brighton sex maniac seem almost gentlemanly. This fact shows that Hamish was wrong in his opinion but is he going to admit this? Not likely. This time he says, “No true Scotsman would do such a thing.””
—Antony Flew, Thinking About Thinking (1975)
Very well done, Catherine.



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Catherine

posted September 2, 2010 at 5:04 pm


Take a chill pill ds, and don’t put words in my mouth.
I have never claimed that ALL muslims are responsible for their select few terrorist counterparts.
You need to get a grip, and vent your anger elsewhere.



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Gonzo

posted September 2, 2010 at 6:30 pm


Catherine, Darwin did not recant his theory and become a Christian, and if you look at the link I provided, this refution of your statement is provided by a Christian website!



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ds0490

posted September 2, 2010 at 6:35 pm


Catherine: “I have never claimed that ALL muslims are responsible for their select few terrorist counterparts.”
And I never said you did, Catherine. What you did say, however, was the following:
“ds-who said the persons you mentioned are Christians? I didn’t.”
Read more: http://blog.beliefnet.com/lynnvsekulow/2010/08/ground-zero-hypocrisy_comments.html#ixzz0yPj3Tk5u
Catherine, with that statement you are making a judgment call that, quite frankly, you have absolutely no qualifications to make. In each of the cases I cited the perpetrators of the crimes in question claimed to be Christian, and used their Christianity as a justification for their actions (in the case of the bombers/murders) or to guilt their victims into silence (in the case of the child molestor priests). You make the claim that their actions disqualify them from the Christian faith.
I pointed out that many Muslim clerics have made exactly the same claim about terrorists who act in the name of Islam. I was merely asking you if you would grant Muslims the same argument against their terrorists that you take against your faith’s violent adherents?
For example, we have the following statement from CAIR regarding acts of terrorism committed in the name of their religion.
http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?mid1=777&&ArticleID=8761&&name=n&&currPage=1
Essentially they are making the same statement you are making, that no real adherent of their faith would commit such acts.
My question to you is simple: do you accept their statement, or do you challenge the premise they set forward?



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Catherine

posted September 2, 2010 at 7:33 pm


ds – If you are asking me if I think that innocent Christians or muslims need to accept a collective responsibility or blame for a sect of deranged and violent individuals that make excuses under the guise of “religion”, the answer is of course, no.
People as individuals are entirely responsible for their own actions, and behaviors.
I don’t like to debate or especially, to argue; isn’t life too short?
I try to live each day of my life with gratitude, kindness, and grace. Many, Many, MANY days I fail, but I keep moving forward with a smile and a joyful heart.
No one can steal away the joy–Maranatha.



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Rich

posted September 3, 2010 at 12:50 am


Catherine,
I have to admit to being a little taken aback by your interpretation of my last post to you. You characterized my story as sad, I sure didn’t see it that way, in fact I see it as the opposite. Perhaps I can’t write.
My story relating being a young man fleeing the pews of a church to go run free in a cathedral of blue skies and majestic trees is not sad, it describes the simple joy of just being alive. Even further, asserting my will as a young man and refusing to honor a belief system that I did not value is also what life should be about, being true to what you really believe.
You claim value for you life in things that truly seem meaningless to me. Okay, I understand that we are all different and I don’t have a problem with that. What will forever remain incomprehensible to me are statements like:
“Not until I became an adult did I realize that Jesus was no longer dead on the cross, but alive. He had risen. He’s alive and will return.”
I don’t even know what that means. You say he is alive. Do you literally see him? Hear him? If so, wouldn’t it worry you that you are basing your life upon something that is more likely an emotional hallucination rather than a reality?
Later you state:
“I found love and forgiveness in the Cross”
Again, that is meaningless to me. You had lost love and needed to find it? Forgiven for what, being human? Why was the urge to be forgiven so important?
Still going you write
“and most importantly–no religion”
Sorry, but you are part of a religion. You may do it in your own particular way, we can call it a religion with one member but it is still a religion.
“no condemnation, no hate or judgement.”
To be honest with you, sounds like a self-esteem issue. It is nice to have friends and all but I sure couldn’t live my life needing it to be endorsed by anyone but me. After all, it is my life and I am the one living it.
“But instead, only Love and saving Grace.”
No idea what that means.
“A personal relationship with God through Christ.”
Seems crazy to me, a personal relationship with an ethereal ghost. Do you talk to him? Do you get a response that you hear?
Look, if you like this religious stuff, go for it. I think it is all crazy and unreal but you certainly don’t need my approval.
The thing is, please don’t expect others to live your creed. Give them the chance to live the path they have chosen. Don’t go to the polls and vote to insert your religious tenets into law, the majority may be able to assemble the power to do such a thing but it will never have the right. This forum wouldn’t even be here if this wasn’t a real issue. You are free to live you life in your religious fashion just as everyone else has the right to live their life in a different faith or in no faith.



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Catherine

posted September 3, 2010 at 1:44 am


Rich,
Boy, you sure stay up late. Me too, I guess–and I’m sure I’ll suffer for it in the morning.
Anyway, its refreshing to be able to share different views, and to hear different opinions.
To answer a few questions–the meaningless ones of course :)–When I say that “Jesus is Alive, no longer on the Cross” and that, “He is risen, and will return”, I mean it.
I know He’s alive, because He lives within my heart. (2 Cor 5:17)
And no, there are no auditory, emotional, or any other hallucinations going on. lol. Christ speaks to me through His Word, The Holy Bible. Thats it.
By faith, I know the Holy Bible is the complete truth, and I believe it.
I’m getting sleepy, so I’d like to reference a couple of passages to explain my views on forgiveness, redemption, and love. (ephesians 1:7, John 17:3, and the whole book of Romans). :)
But basically, yes. God is Holy, and I am a sinner. Jesus shed his Blood on the cross to make a way, to bridge the gap for me (and you) a sinner, to spend eternity with God. Jesus was the full atonement for our sin. Christ was without sin, the Lamb of God, and He took the place for us on calvary, which rightfully belonged to us. He made a way for us to spend Eternity with Him. But only if we believe and Choose Him. He gives us freedom to choose or reject.
1. “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)
2. “But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.” (Romans 5:8)
“… if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes to righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made to salvation.” (Romans 10:9)
And lastly, I don’t consider myself to be a “religious” person,(although I do assemble with believers, and (willingly this time) attend a regular Bible believing Church) Instead, I consider myself to have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
That is what the Lord wants with you, and everyone else He created.
Remember your previous comment about predestination? Well, you were right, and you’re living the moment. Question is: What do you choose in the most important moment of your life?
~Maranatha



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HG

posted September 3, 2010 at 4:21 am


I’ve just had a long talk with my younger brother who is visiting here with his family, I have three older. I was amazed to learn that this particular brother, with whom I share the most loving of human relations, has come to believe that the Earth is indeed 6000 odd years old, and that the Bible, and the prophecies are factual. My, what a long discussion we had. He could be Mr. Incredible!
I am amazed we can have gone through the same school system, and he (no doubt) is convinced I shall have a very difficult time in the Biblical afterlife. Yet, as it comes time for bed, we hug goodnight with no less love than we have known throughout our lives.
One older brother has expressed certainty that I am mistaken over my reading of the religion clauses of the Constitution, he’s Catholic now. When I pointed out his error (in the presence of another brother, an English major who agrees with me), he exclaimed he was a mathematician (as if that had anything to do with the meaning of language!) and stormed out of the room. Yet, we went to bed being the same loving brothers we have always been. No harm, no foul.
Maybe love conquers all for people, but I’m quite sure those two brothers are pretty sure I’m in for possible harsh treatment for my non-belief (God has His own rules). It doesn’t matter at all in our relationship though. What is, is.



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Catherine

posted September 3, 2010 at 7:17 am


HG-
I’m wicked tired this morning, but I must admit that I cracked up (even before coffee) with the Mr. Incredible comment!! (no offense to Mr. I of course, b/c I’m sure he’s a nice person) But that was just Funny!!
First thought–four brothers, five boys? Sheesh, your poor mom.
Second–And you’re right, its amazing that two, deeply opposing views (remembering of course, that your younger bro is right :) )can peacefully discuss different issues, and still remain respectful, kind, and understanding.
As for me, more coffee and off-
Love Never Fails.



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Sacramental Bea

posted September 3, 2010 at 2:27 pm


“By faith, I know the Holy Bible is the complete truth, and I believe it”
I don’t really know you at all, Catherine, but I am willing to bet my entire life savings that you do NOT follow it (as I presume you would if you actually accept it as “the complete truth”.
First of all, we would need to know which version you “believe” since the many, many translations/versions do NOT agree with one another.
Then, you would have to convince me that you believe disobedient children and the victims of incest should be put to death.
Likewise, homosexuals should “surely be put to death”.
And, you, as a woman, would have to agree never, ever to teach Sunday School or pretend to preach in Church.
You would have to agree that the disabled should be denied communion.
Sorry, these few examples (and there are many, many more) highlight areas that I doubt you (or any other thinking person) would ever “believe” in. And, if you do, then you’re far too heartless and cruel to be a follower of Christ.



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Sacramental Bea

posted September 3, 2010 at 2:30 pm


“Christ speaks to me through His Word”
Odd, then, that you chose to quote Paul instead of Christ in every single example.
Meanwhiole, could we please (pretty please) get back to the topic of the hypocrisy over the Ground Zero mosque?
IMO, either freedom of religion is guaranteed to ALL or no citizen truly has it at all.



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Rich

posted September 3, 2010 at 3:29 pm


Sacramental Bea,
Indeed, we have wandered to far-flung topics. I suppose we should get back to the subject of the proposed mosque. To be honest, I am not sure that there is all that much to say about it; it is their right to built a mosque, others want to intimidate and bully them into relocating.
While many say it is un-American to build a mosque there, I am not sure what we should call it when a religious entity submits to cultural intimidation, likely not a blueprint for the concept of religious liberty.



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Sacramental Bea

posted September 3, 2010 at 4:24 pm


What is “UN-American (and UN-Constitutional) is to deny one particular sect the “freedom of religion” (and the freedom of association) America ‘promises’ to ALL.



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Catherine

posted September 3, 2010 at 6:12 pm


Hi Rich,
I thought for one Planck unit…should I respond to someone who wants to quash my 1st amendment right? Then I though, “nahh, not worth it”..especially if you consider the potential hormonal backlash if ya know what I mean.
..I’m so glad I live in America where I’m free to digress from a topic, without worrying that I may wake up without my head attached to my body.
Anyway, I’m still trying to understand your view of atheism, and had some questions for you-but I’ll have to write later since I’m heading to a HS football game. Pales in comparison to the AZ Cardinals I know, but with Kurt Warner retired, and my favorite player #11 Fitzgerald injured, it doesn’t make much of a game. That, and the fact is wouldn’t be live. (although, I did attend a pre-season game a couple wks ago where the Cards were crushed by the Titans) :( Oh well, it’s still fun–and after all, football is clearly valid and measurable proof that God loves us. :)
Again I digress. oops
But in reference to the mosque. I don’t think it’s “un-American” to build in that location, but rather, inflammatory and insensitive. Especially now, in our Nation, since I thought the goal and desire was to build better relations, respect individual differences, and to merge bridges of understanding.



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Rich

posted September 3, 2010 at 10:36 pm


Catherine,
Feel free to ask any question you want, I am always game. Just a warning though, we atheists are a pretty diverse group. With no central book that we rely upon, one atheist is quite different than another. We all generally arrive at our own conclusions in our own individual manner. I can speak my mind but anything I say can only be seen as the thoughts of one person and not reflective of any larger group.
But, you are free to ask questions on whatever topic you like. Hell, you are even free to try and convert me but it would never happen. I tossed aside theism and became an atheist somewhere around the age of 12 I figure, it is beyond my ability to recall an exact point. I know I was labeling myself that way fairly early, certainly before I started high school. So, given my age of 57, I have kept my Sundays free for somewhere between 40 to 45 years.
Every now and then some members of my extended family will decide to take a run at me. In some cases it is almost touching, some familial worry for my soul. Happily, once the conversation begins and I begin asking them my usual set of questions, their clever plot to assail me with unassailable logic disassembling before their eyes. In a few cases I have almost felt a bit bad, not being able to give them something they seem to feel is important, but one has to be honest. My side of the family is sort of similar to what HG related above.
My wife’s family is a whole different story. My father-in-law came from a family of 13 kids, all raised without religion. This would have been a fairly brave act back in 1930. My wife was raised the same. As adults, my wife and her brothers, just view religion as a weird dysfunction and don’t pay it much mind other than to think it absurd and injurious to our society.
Here is something I like to point out because I think it is fairly surprising to many religious folks:
My in-laws celebrated their 62nd anniversary last December
My wife’s older brother and his wife have been married 35 years.
My wife and I just had our 33rd anniversary yesterday.
Her next youngest brother has now been married 31 years.
The youngest brother now has 30 years of being happily married.
Think about that, atheism is the key to stable marriages.



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Evie Miller

posted September 3, 2010 at 11:00 pm


I wonder if Mr Lynn has accepted the Lord into his life as his Personal Saviour…I think not somehow…….



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Rich

posted September 4, 2010 at 1:56 am


Evie Miller,
Well, I don’t know if he has or not. Frankly, it shouldn’t matter. Perhaps that is not the custom in his particular faith. I am sure you would agree with me that all Americans are free to practice their faith in whatever way seems appropriate. Even further, since our Constitution specifically prohibits requiring any affirmation or test of religious faith in order to serve our country, I think we can also assume, as Americans, we do not judge the value, merit, or integrity of a person by their religious affiliation.
In fact, now that I think about this, I think you probably owe Mr. Lynn a real big thank you. This is because it is those who labor to protect our most important American ideal, the separation of Church and State, are the ones responsible for you to select whatever faith you have chosen.



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 12:40 pm


Rich-
Happy Anniversary! That is a wonderful accomplishment, not to mention what sounds like a happy, committed, and fulfilling relationship.
I would love to ‘convert’ you, but unfortunately, I can only share the Gospel, pray, and let the Holy Spirit do the work. Each man chooses for himself. (2 Peter 3:9)
The decision is eternal.
As for your extended family members–I am convinced their desire is not in anyway to challenge your knowledge/mind (b/c they would lose), get you upset, or to make an argument. But instead, in love and concern, they desire to share Christ with you. Obviously, you are important to them, and they care deeply about your soul, and firmly believe in the afterlife that has no end.
So, I guess my first question is: where will you spend your eternity?
Where does an atheist go, if anywhere, after he dies?
And my previous question was interest in your thoughts and feedback on the several (hundreds) of scientists and researchers that have gone into their fields with brilliant and genius minds as confirmed atheists, and then, based on scientific evidence, coming to their own conclusion that God is undeniably real, and there is no scientific way he can not be.
I’ve included one such quote below:
Frank Tipler (Professor of Mathematical Physics): “When I began my career as a cosmologist some twenty years ago, I was a convinced atheist. I never in my wildest dreams imagined that one day I would be writing a book purporting to show that the central claims of Judeo-Christian theology are in fact true, that these claims are straightforward deductions of the laws of physics as we now understand them. I have been forced into these conclusions by the inexorable logic of my own special branch of physics.” (16) Note: Tipler since has actually converted to Christianity, hence his latest book, The Physics Of Christianity.
Looking forward to hearing your thoughts–
(also, a little funny story about the ‘Maranatha’. I have a 7 yr old conure bird who every morning, as I’m stumbling to my coffee pot, greets me, first with a huge, loud, and extremely enthusiastic catcall Whistle (which sometimes gets my husband jealous!! LOL) and then next, my bird says over and over….”Maranatha, Maranantha, Maranatha”. My response is always the same: “Yes, you’re absolutely right Ezra..the Lord Is Coming!” :)
–“If the whole universe has no meaning, we should never have found out that it has no meaning: just as, if there were no light in the universe and therefore no creatures with eyes, we should never know it was dark. Dark would be without meaning.”
C. S. Lewis



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Your Name

posted September 4, 2010 at 5:01 pm


The problem is when we have masked darkness appearing as if they are light… you don’t know who to trust or who is really real… now do you ….?
When the light is dark and the dark appears light! They all start looking the same… and then you go to church thinking that it will be different, and it is not…, you find it to be worse or more of the same… Sad but true… So there you have it folks, more of the same blah blah blah… I am not saying those who really take it to heart and do it , for they are clearly light and you can tell it by their actions… The actions are what show who they are…. Talk is cheap and there are liars out there, even in the church….!! and you just wanted more of what I could give instead of what you could give, that is what I found to be so surprising, I thought you were completely different… That is why you do not really know a person until two or three years, and even then, they still can turn around and do the exact opposite of what is right….
cc



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted September 4, 2010 at 5:42 pm


Catherine, one-a God’s brightest lights through Christ, says:
Christ speaks to me through His Word.
Mr. Incredible says:
Listening to the Word, just as Mary listened to Jesus who said to Martha that Mary is doing the “needful” thing.
Sacramental Bea says:
Odd, then, that you chose to quote Paul instead of Christ in every single example.
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that Paul spoke from revelation of Christ, not from his own wisdom.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Christ, the Day of God

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:20 pm


Sacramental Bea says:
Odd, then, that you chose to quote Paul instead of Christ in every single example.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Word of God says that we are to listen to those who, in Righteousness given by God through Christ, speak the Word of God Which, through revelation came through Paul. [Galatians 1:12; Galatians 2:2; Ephesians 3:3; 1 Corinthians 14:6; Revelation 1:1; 2 Chronicles 18:13; 1 Corinthians 2:6-7; John 3:11; 1 Corinthians 2:13; 2 Corinthians 4:13; 1 Corinthians 14:26; 1 Thessalonians 2:4]
In other words, the Truth is in God, through Christ, His Word; it doesn’t matter who speaks Him.
Of course, those who hold the Truth of His Testimony in unrighteousness [Romans 1:18] cannot speak the Word in other than unrighteousness cuz THAT is the abundance of their hearts [Matthew 12:34]; and, so, we don’t listen to them any more than Jesus, in the Wilderness, listend to the Devil [Matthew 4:1-11].
Thus, we know that the Devil cannot quote Scripture, that, whenever somebody who holds the Word of Truth in unrighteousness [as the Devil does] tries to use the Word to further unrighteousness, we know not to listen to him, for we, through the Word of God, are not ignorant of the Devil’s devices.



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Rich

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:25 pm


Mr. Incredibly Afflicted,
I am sure I have told you this before but it is always worth a repeat. You don’t need a mirror. What you need is a TV with the movie Carrie playing. Take a look at yourself in the role of Carrie’s mother. The resemblance is amazing. Praise God! Gimme Witness!



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:30 pm


Mr I – yes, you are absolutely right–
The scriptures of the Bible are inspired or “God-breathed” by the Holy Spirit, inerrant, Faithful and True. The revelation of Christ.
Romans 3:4, 2 Timothy 3:16, John 14:26, John 17:17.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Christ, God's Light in darkness

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:34 pm


Catherine,
I’m REALLY glad you’re here, writng the Words of Truth!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Christ, Counsellor

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:36 pm


Rich says:
Mr. Incredibly Afflicted…
Mr. Incredible says:
“Afflicted” with Christ! What a deal!



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:44 pm


Mr. I-
Operative word: Love. Truth in Love.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus Name, the Name above ALL names

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:44 pm


Rich says:
Mr. Incredibly Afflicted…
Mr. Incredible says:
“Afflicted” with Christ, but not conflicted!
Catherine,
You rootin’ for the Cards, eh? Me, too.
I guessed yesterday to somebody that the QB lineup would be Anderson, Hall, Skelton, then Leinart, if he stays. He was cut today. Good, I say. He has a soft, slow motion and looks as though he lobs the ball.
You gotta give the veteran, Anderson, the chance, but, if he goofs up in the first two games, Hall’s gotta be the starter from there on in. This cannot be a training year cuz-a the last two, or three seasons of improvement. This has to be a winning year, too, and, as I say, if Anderson fizzles in the first two games, you can’t let it go on past that, and you gotta go with the hot hand in Hall who is firey, crisp and quick.



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 6:54 pm


First of all, no offense to Leinart, but good riddance. I just don’t think he was cutting it, or cutting anything for that matter.
My prediction for QB is Max Hall, the rookie. My husband disagrees and says Anderson. I feel that Hall is their only chance. Highly question a “winning year” any time within the next decade or so, but who knows? The system that worked was Werner & Fitzgerald, and now its gone.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, Who came in Grace and Truth

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:02 pm


Catherine says:
Mr. I-
Operative word: Love. Truth in Love.
Mr. Incredible:
Did Jesus show “love” to the Devil in the wilderness? Is the Devil owed love? Depends.
Is “love” the kinda “love” you show a man? Depends.
If you love a man, you care about him. Care about what? Care about his safety, health. It’s unselfish.
When it comes to biblical “love,” you care, unselfishly, for his Salvation.
So, biblical “love” is “unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for others’ Salvation as you have for your own.” This goes directly to, “Doing unto others as you would have them do unto you.” You unselfishly care for somebody by giving them what they need to stay spiritually healthy and safe. You give them the Word of God does you would like them to give you the Word of God so that you stay spiritually healthy and safe. You don’t have to like someone, therefore, to love them in this sense.
In the beginning, God loved. Was that enough? No. He was compelled to express that love. How did He do that? He spoke. He spoke light/Light into existence. The light/Light shined in the darkness. Coupled with John 3:16, the Light is His Son. God’s love. God sent His love in His Word. We send God’s love by sending His Word. The darkness does not comprehend that Light.



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:07 pm


Mr. I
Do you love Rich?



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:11 pm


Catherine,
As I say, you gotta give the veteran, Anderson, a chance. Outta respect. Hall is probably the “go to” guy, but you gotta give Anderson the first two games. If the Cards are in-a hole by the end of two games, the diggin’s gotta stop and you gotta give Hall the shovel to fill in the hole.
I would say that, if Anderson bumbled and stumbled during camp, Hall would be your starter. Anderson’s veteran status, coupled with a decent showing during training camp, earns him two games. I think Hall can recover the team if Anderson screws up.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:16 pm


Catherine says:
Mr. I
Do you love Rich?
Mr. Incredible says:
In the biblical way, as I explained above, yes, and the proof of that is that I have given him the Word of God. Whether he receives the Word of God is not my problem; I cast the Seed and let the Seed fall where the Seed may. Casting the Seed does not guarantee that the Seed will fall on good ground.



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gerry

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:17 pm


Why do you put quotation remarks around the descriptions of Walid?



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Rich

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:18 pm


Catherine,
As to your first question, where will I go when I die?
In my case, likely to a crematorium. I have requested that everyone have a party and that I be burned in the back yard while Disco Inferno plays but my wife feels there are permit issues, she might be right.
Nope, when we die, the lights go down and that is it. There is no soul in us anymore than in any other creature. I have often heard our soul described as our consciousness and our basic personality attributes; kind, gregarious, effervescent or whatever. However, what we call consciousness is just a bio-chemical reaction taking place in the brain. Alter the oxygen flow and you alter consciousness. Everyone should ponder the fact that our perception of the world can be changed by increasing or decreasing the flow of oxygen to an individual. Even complicating the matter more is that our brain is a rat’s nest of neural pathways, use any analogy you want, a computer circuit board, a phone system distribution board or the circuit breaker panel in your home but signals are routed down the line to specific destinations. Mess up those pathways and you mess up consciousness, behavior and just about every aspect of being human. Perhaps more legend than true, there is some reason to believe that Abraham Lincoln was kicked in the head by a mule during his early adulthood. Before this incident he was known as quite the light-hearted joker around town, after this, he suffered from lifelong melancholy. Think of this, his base personality changed, the way he thought, lived, loved, laughed, it all changed. This happens all the time to victims of brain injuries. What we are is just a circuit board, instead of electricity our signals run up the lines, a bio-chemcial response in one synapse sending the info to the next synapse. A physical act changes the very core of a person. Did his soul change too?
I wonder about this as it applies to religion. Let’s say a person is a devout Christian, born-again and meets all the requirements that you understand a person to need to get into heaven. Sadly, this hypothetical person gets injured in a car wreck and suffers brain injury. Now, this person becomes obsessed with gambling or pornography, has affairs and abandons his wife and children, etc, etc. Who is this person really, the person before the wreck or after? Does your God give the guy a pass?
Your second query; a scientist becoming a believer.
There are lots of believers, there is constant social and often familial pressure to get on the God bus. People do it for a number of reason, too many to list. When I think of why people get religious I always think of the line by John Lennon in his song ‘God’. he writes “God is a concept by which we measure our pain”. I can think of no better description, I consider it the equivalent of people self-medicating with alcohol or drugs, the more pain you have, the more you medicate. I don’t know what was going on in this scientist’s mind or even who he is and it wouldn’t matter anyway, I base my life on what I think. None of us are perfect, I suppose we all self-medicate in various ways. Me, I have an inordinate love of shop tools and woodworking.
What I find most laughable is scientists writing books trying to prove the existence of an entity that is by definition beyond the realm of the physical world. I don’t care what kind of telescope you have, you will never see anything outside this universe.
What also strikes me as odd is that people accept this notion that to know God one has to engage in a ‘National Treasure’ type scavenger hunt, it just can’t be obvious. You need a book, God couldn’t figure out a way to communicate with us other than a book, we couldn’t just be alive and figure this stuff out. I would think it would strike everyone as the ultimate absurdity that to know your very creator you need to jump through a bunch of hoops and solve a 312 step mystery puzzle. If I want to appreciate the universe, I go outside watch the sun go down or sit in a mountain meadow and look at the world before me, I don’t need a guide. Quite clearly, we have all the tools we need to understand our place in the universe, we don’t need anybody’s guidance.
A final thought on the problem with the notion of God; it is just too darn small. It does injustice to the magnificence of Nature, it makes the universe too small. There is an infinite universe that is waiting to be discovered, hell, we haven’t even learned everything there is to know about ourselves or this planet let alone thinking we can make a credible guess about an infinite creator. We are no position to think we have any skill at that kind of thing. Life is just fine as it is, no need to create some place that you think will be better, just make this one good and leave it at that.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who is God's Day

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:21 pm


Now, Catherine, if you’re asking me whether I love Rich in the worldly sense, I say, “NO!” The Word of God does not require me to love anyone in the worldly sense. Love, in the worldly sense, is finicky. Love, in the biblical sense, is not. In the biblical sense, it is sure, perfect.



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gerry

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:23 pm


In my opinion, Islam is as much a political movement as it is a “religion”. I know that’s so because of the existence of Islamic republics that persecute minorities. The author can’t dispute this.



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:31 pm


Rich,
what if you’re wrong?



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:37 pm


“If the solar system was brought about by an accidental collision, then the appearance of organic life on this planet was also an accident, and the whole evolution of Man was an accident too. If so, then all our present thoughts are mere accidents – the accidental by-product of the movement of atoms. And this holds for the thoughts of the materialists and astronomers as well as for anyone else’s. But if their thoughts – i.e., Materialism and Astronomy – are mere accidental by-products, why should we believe them to be true? I see no reason for believing that one accident should be able to give me a correct account of all the other accidents. It’s like expecting the accidental shape taken by the splash when you upset a milk-jug should give you a correct account of how the jug was made and why it was upset”
-C.S. Lewis



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Mr. Incredible aks

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:55 pm


Who caused the “accident”???



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the True Light

posted September 4, 2010 at 7:58 pm


How could all life’ve been an accident when all the information for all life to begin and develop is within each life??? If the info is within each life, each life cannot be an accident.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Son of God

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:01 pm


How did the “Big Bang” know to bang at that particular time? There had to be a cause, no? Somebody triggered it, and that was no accident cuz THAT Agent KNEW ahead of time that He would trigger it.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:03 pm


How does an atheist know, by his physical senses, that there is nothing beyond those senses?



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Charles Thomas

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:03 pm


“I wonder if Mr.Lynn has accepted the Lord into his life as his Personal Savior…I think not somehow”
I wonder if Evie Miller is implying that Mr.Lynn’s faith is not genuine because he’s willing to defend the right of Muslims to build a community center.
Like Rich said,it really shouldn’t matter.Whether Barry Lynn’s faith is authentic or not has no bearing on the validity of his position on this issue.
Address his argument,not his faith.



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Catherine

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:07 pm


Mr. I
Do you truly love Rich?



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J L Perkins

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:25 pm


Rev. Lynn, do you know anything about Islam? It is NOT a peaceful religion. They believe that it is their duty to make everyone a Muslim. It is not just a religion, it’s judicial and a society. It’s not just, oh I’m going to the mosque today, like the religions we know.
You need to do some research before saying that they don’t want to take over America. They want to take over everyone, and it is not just “fanatics”, this is a core belief and they take it very seriously. Have you read any history about Islam and how they moved through the middle east and were close to invading the holy land, but they were stopped. The date of this was Sept. 11 (sorry can’t remember the year off hand). Watch the film, Islam what the west needs to know. The academics in this film explain the religion and its tenets.



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Charles Thomas

posted September 4, 2010 at 8:44 pm


“How does an atheist know,by his physical senses,that there is nothing beyond those senses?”
How can anyone know that there is something or nothing beyond our the world in which we live?
What is beyond human perception is a matter of faith and speculation.
Even if Christianity is true,one still couldn’t scientifically demostrate that reality to another by reference to the facts of this world.



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Rich

posted September 4, 2010 at 10:21 pm


Catherine,
What if your wrong?
Let’s look at the much-loved Pascal’s Wager, a darling of Christians yet a very sophomoric analysis. It goes like this in case you are not familiar with it:
There is God: Two possibilities A) good for believers B) Not good for non-believers
There is no God: Two possibilities C) moot for believers D) moot for non-believers
Now, Mr. Pascal looked at this and though “Whoa, of the four non-moot outcomes, it comes down to a 50/50 deal. I best believe in Mr. Jesus and all of the accessories pertinent to this religion. Case closed!”
Well, here is the problem and it always surprises me that most theists make the same lame assumptions.
1) There are more than two base scenarios:
a) There is a Christian god
b) There are multiple gods and goddesses
c) There is a god but he doesn’t care
d) There is a god but he wants you to use the senses that you have to confirm facts before you believe
e) God is a sadist and sends everyone to Hell
f) There are mulitiple Gods and they throw dice to determine your fate
g) The Mormons are right and we are all gods
h) John Travolta is god and only those who have taken anti-depressants are confined to Hell.
I) Mr. Incredible is god but doesn’t know his posterior orifice from a hole in the ground so he will reserve Heaven solely for himself seeing that he sees himself as the only one worthy.
j) God exists but only likes Mac users.
k) Odin is god, hopefully you died in battle before arriving at the Pearly Gates
l) Heaven is really boring and Hell is now the place to be given that Mark Twain is already there. Jim Morrison too!
m) etc, etc ad infinitum
You see, you ask me “what if I am wrong” as if it is a simple “a or b” type choice. It just isn’t that simple. In fact, the idea that it might be a heaven or might be hell are probably the two options that don’t really merit being on any list. Think of it, in your own creed the idea is that man is made in God’s image, I am sure it says that somewhere amongst the other poorly written stories. Now, what does that mean? If I was a Christian I would interpret that to mean that we were given the same innate sense of right and wrong that God possesses. At least his sense of ethics when he is not smiting the innocent but that is another story. Anyway, think about it, let’s say there is God up there, you screw up in your 90 years on the planet and he sends you to Hell. Not for ninety years, not just an amount of time equal to the time you spent being a jerk. No, God screws you over forever, in abject agony and torment. In no system of ethics is that even remotely reasonable, in fact it is a horrific thought. You actually instantly know this to be true. Let’s say we work together. One day and you flip out and hit me with your “World’s Best Christian” mug. I decide to punish according to God’s rules. I take you into the lunch room, tie you to a chair, light the blowtorch and get out the razor blades… Well, 10 million years later I am on my 10 millionth new set of ear plugs because you constant and incessant shrieks of unimaginable agony are just really hard on my ears.
As well, this idea that your time on Earth is some sort of test is really silly. God being omniscient and omnipresent and any other omni you want to tack on to him already knew the answer before I came down here. The odd thing is that Christians are real big on free will and God’s omniscience all at the same time. Seems to me that you want to get your ducks in a row before you knock on my door in tidily clean casual clothes to inform of some ‘Good News’.
So, bottom line, there are an infinite number of possibilities to the afterlife question, you don’t get to arbitrarily narrow them down to the two you like. You are the one who should be concerned about being wrong.



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Rich

posted September 4, 2010 at 10:33 pm


Catherine,
The CS Lewis quote cracks me up. People take this guy seriously?
However, the whole life being an accident, yep, I like that. One of my favorite quote from some wise-guy somewhere and somewhen was:
“Life is a disease of matter”
Certainly, short, sweet and to the point.
Now, for Mr. Lewis. While he may see no reason that the results of the accident of creation could yield sentient creatures who could begin acquiring knowledge and answers about the universe, his failure to do so says more about his meager imagination and his lack of an ability to shed cloistering paradigms more than anything else. He fault is that he is assuming that accidents can create nothing valid. Why just the other day, I saw a story on MSNBC about various accidents in the world of chemical engineering, etc. that led to various useful products. Not all accidents create useless chaos. Sorry but Mr. Lewis is a complete failure. Didn’t think much of his books either.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted September 4, 2010 at 11:38 pm


JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS !

Catherine says:
Mr. I
Do you truly love Rich?
Mr. Incredible says:
First, Catherine, you asked, “Do you love Rich?” I answered that.
Now you ask whether I “truly” love Rich. That’s, essentially, the same question. I can’t add to what I already answered.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, God's Day

posted September 4, 2010 at 11:43 pm


Mr. Incredible says:
How does an atheist know,by his physical senses,that there is nothing beyond those senses?
Charles Thomas says:
How can anyone know that there is something or nothing beyond our the world in which we live?
Mr. Incredible says:
By experience. The same way you know whether “love” exists, or “beauty” exists, or even “Time.”.
Charles Thomas says:
What is beyond human perception is a matter of faith and speculation.
Mr. Incredible says:
And, yet, by experience.
Charles Thomas says:
Even if Christianity is true,one still couldn’t scientifically demostrate that reality to another by reference to the facts of this world.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Which “world”?

“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.” — Jesus



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name above all names

posted September 4, 2010 at 11:49 pm


AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.

Evie Miller says:
I wonder if Mr.Lynn has accepted the Lord into his life as his Personal Savior…I think not somehow
Charles Thomas says:
I wonder if Evie Miller is implying that Mr.Lynn’s faith is not genuine because he’s willing to defend the right of Muslims to build a community center.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Where is this “Right” to build?
Charles Thomas says:
Like Rich said,it really shouldn’t matter.Whether Barry Lynn’s faith is authentic or not has no bearing on the validity of his position on this issue.
Mr. Incredible says:
Whether his faith is authentic bears directly on credibility.
Charles Thomas says:
Address his argument,not his faith.
Mr. Incredible says:
We may address both.



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Rich

posted September 5, 2010 at 1:29 am


Catherine,
Aside from being weird, asking Mr. Incredible Poser For Jesus if he truly loves me is kind of interesting. At least his evasive response is interesting. He knows he doesn’t live up the ideals of his faith and is understandably reluctant to publicly admit his failure. In his defense, his hatred of me might just be the only thing normal about him. Which, is kind of funny now that I think about it, he only begins to approach normalcy when he fails at his Christian charade.
Not being a Christian, I am not bound by this “love your enemy” nonsense. Humans don’t actually truly love their enemies, it is just unrealistic to ask folks to do this. We may as well admit it and deal with it. I know that Christians chant the mantra but that is about it, after all, Christians are only human just like atheists. Enough stuff happens in life that there will always be plenty of good reasons to hate someone, we probably don’t need religion finding additional reasons to hate people. Sadly, religions tend to excel at this very thing.
Religions do tend to inculcate hatred of different groups, it is always there but covered up in most cases and it is always a bit startling to see it once in the open. Westboro Baptist Church is an interesting example of religious hatred laid bar. The only thing that really separates them from the rest of conservative Christianity is that they just don’t have the normal social behavior governors that would normally restrain an individual from spewing such hatred. Yet, that hatred is still there, alive and well in conservative Christian churches, dampened down below the surface but there nonetheless.
That hatred is there because Christian theology puts it there. This hatred of gays, atheists, Jews, Muslims, left-wingers, etc, etc is taught, not some innate human instinct. Anytime there is a new development in the legal arena of gay marriage I will tune in to the various blogs and read the responses. Invariably, it is always the conservative Christians, who in the same breath, vilely denigrate gays while claiming a blessed high ground given them by Jesus. It always amazes me the intensity of the hatred for gays. I have even seen religious condemnation of the unemployed rise to the surface in recent debates about extending unemployment benefits.
If Christians want to love their enemy they had best start altering their DNA because it is out of reach for current humans. Indeed, I know it is official policy to love everyone but Christian practice has always been light years away from Christian theology.



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Catherine

posted September 5, 2010 at 2:17 am


Rich,
Your harsh words made me sad, and it made me cry.
“Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love Never Fails.” 1Cor13-1-8



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, says

posted September 5, 2010 at 7:04 am


Catherine,
You’re wastin’ your time and electrons.
Of course, you know that my response is not evasive, rather straight to the point, a point that scoffers cannot understand; and, trying to cover their shortcoming, they accuse us of failure. Naturally, we don’t fail in Christ, and, so, their accusations don’t land.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted September 5, 2010 at 7:08 am


Catherine,
Don’t let the scoffers define “love.” Worldly “love” is not biblical “love,” as I explained, and no scoffer can tell us what the Christ kinda love is. They are DQ’d on account-a no experience with God, and, thus, they have no credibility, nothing of value to add to the discussion of God.



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Rich

posted September 5, 2010 at 11:17 am


Catherine,
No need to cry. I wasn’t being harsh, just truthful.



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Zakaryia Ezzat

posted September 5, 2010 at 11:17 am


@ Barry W Lyn
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.” Matthew 7:21
The evidence is clear that you are not one of God’s people if you were you would know that it is not in any way righteous to link arms with false religions for Jesus himself “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
Islam is clearly an evil religion and the only way we can know this is by looking at the word where it says
in
1 John 2:22-23 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist—he denies the Father and the Son. No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also”
The base of Islamic belief is that Jesus was not God and he was not the Son of the True living God. I would know this because I myself was raised in the Islamic faith.
I’ll just let you know something else your an infidel congrats!!!! just read Surah 5 Aya 72 of the Quran actually your not a Christian so that verse wouldn’t apply to you my bad. However Surah 9 verse 29 applies to any one not muslim it goes as follows
“Fight against those who (1) believe not in Allah, (2) nor in the Last Day, (3) nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger (4) and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizyah with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
So I hope your ready to submit or be killed by this peaceful religion.
If you want to know evidence of Walid Shoebat’s story go to his website I have given you the link here. But I know you don’t care because you are so pathetic that you can’t argue with Shoebat’s message the only thing you can do is attack is credibility.



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Rich

posted September 5, 2010 at 4:40 pm


Zakaryia Ezzat,
re: “The base of Islamic belief is that Jesus was not God and he was not the Son of the True living God.”
Well, at least they got that right.
re: Passages from the Koran urging that non-believers be killed.
Yep, I am sure it says that kind of stuff. Gee, it is remarkably similar to:
Deuteronomy 13:6 – If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers
Deuteronomy 13:9 – But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Deuteronomy 13:10 And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die; because he hath sought to thrust thee away from the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.
I think you are right, we need to put a stop to these sick and violent religions. I know that those involved want us to believe that Islam is a “religion of peace” and Christianity is a religion of “loving one’s brother” but I think their own words show something completely different.



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Charles Thomas

posted September 5, 2010 at 10:26 pm


“The evidence is clear that you are not one of God’s children if you were then you would know that it is not in any way righteous to link arms with false religions.”
“1 John 2:22-23 Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ.”
I see,those of us who respect the rights of religious minorities are liars and children of the anti-christ,and that our support of the First Amendment means we seek to “link arms with false religions.”
Most religions make claims that contradict the primary tenets of Christianity,including Judaism.Does that mean if I support the right of jews to build a synagogue on private property that I’m linking arms with a false religion?
You’ve linked your arms with the haters of religious liberty.
You say that Islam wants to conquer the world through violence.
That’s true of certain sects within Islam.
It’s also true that many churches teach that most people will come to a violent end when Jesus returns to establish the Kingdom of God on earth,and eliminate those who refuse to submit.Indeed,There’s an entire sub-culture of believers who think they have a Divine Mandate to lay the groundwork for such an event,by establishing a theocracy and subjugating or killing the godless and the immoral.
Thank God the fanatics of both religions are restrained from implementing thier agendas by the secularism and pluralism of the American culture.



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Charles Thomas

posted September 6, 2010 at 4:08 am


“Don’t let the scoffers define “love”.Worldly ‘love’ is not biblical ‘love’…”
Christianity does not teach that “worldy” love is antithetical to “biblical” love.It simply claims that human love is an imperfect relection of God’s love.



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Charles Thomas

posted September 6, 2010 at 5:08 pm


I said:
“What is beyond human perception is a matter of faith and speculation.”
Mr.Incredible responded by saying:
“And,yet,by experience.”
I wish you would clarify what you mean by that comment.
Are you saying one can experience something beyond perception,or without perception?
No experience is possible without a means of perception,and no perception is possible without the aid of your five senses.Perception and experience go hand in hand.Even if God wanted to communicate with you,it would be impossible unless you had some kind of percepual apparatus for receiving the message.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted September 7, 2010 at 3:29 am


Rich says:
Catherine,
No need to cry. I wasn’t being harsh, just truthful.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “truth”?



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Walter Mack

posted September 7, 2010 at 12:40 pm


Long on silly statements, short on clarification.
I see the Devil World Church (in Florida, surprise!) is planning to burn Qurans on 9/11 despite Petraeus’ warning it could cost us personnel. Many Americans are smarter than our extremist foes, …many aren’t.



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Your Name

posted September 7, 2010 at 1:34 pm


And yes the devil exist, and he works through people to hurt you…
Even if it means putting it in front of your face to try and pull you down into the bottumless pit of dispair…. PATHETIC, you are what you are and don’t say that you are trying to help me or that you care about me , if you are going to do that…. It is quite the opposite… !
I should have learned my lesson by the last episode with the church… and yet I learned there are more out there that you can cook up and put in front of my face to do the exact same thing , just in case I didn’t get enough of the last dose of your hypocrisy and pain…C
p.s.
If I ever needed any medication, it would be from insensive people who try and hurt in a sadistic way and then act like they are doing me a favor… Quite the contrary , I just see them as more of what they truely are, selfish little characters which are so jealous that they want to come into my space to try and prove that they are better in some way….. Stay away , do me a favor if that is your intent…. And no, I don’t need you a person who stabbed me in the back to try and come around and decoy for me or something….



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Mr. Incredible asks, in the Name of Jesus

posted September 7, 2010 at 6:33 pm


If burning the American Flag is First Amendment, why isn’t burning the Koran?
If burning the American Flag is acceptable to some, why isn’t burning the Koran — a book — acceptable to them?



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Charles Thomas

posted September 7, 2010 at 8:04 pm


Burning the American Flag and burning the Qur’an are deeply offensive to people,but are nonetheless protected by the First Amendment right to freedom of expression and property rights.
Either act is unacceptable to me,meaning I wouldn’t burn an American Flag or the Qu’ran.I think there are better ways to protest the policies of a nation or the teachings of a religion than to deliberately insult millions of people. Desecrating what people consider sacred just to score a point is tasteless,disrespectful, and stupid.Such acts are intentionally insulting and provocative.Even so,if someone buys a flag or a holy book with the intention of burning it,then I say let them;they have a right to do what they want with thier own property.They should keep in mind,however,that such acts will earn them the contempt and hatred of millions of people.



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HG

posted September 7, 2010 at 9:08 pm


Yes, American laws allow some actions which others may find offensive; but we neither condone, nor generally allow, violence in response. It might be a good idea for our troops in Afghanistan to widely circulate this information there right now. Some of them are going to die because this pastor thinks it important to chuck rocks at a hornets nest. All Americans will be seen in this light by some Muslims, and it will serve as a recruitment tool for extremists.



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Your Name

posted September 8, 2010 at 2:37 pm


The problem with a religion which kills people before they can make a choice or have freedom is actually that, a killing field..
So, when they can describe what is actually in their text which diginifies a human being into protecting them instead of killing them, then give them ground…
Put it to you this way, describing a religion which decides when and if they are going to kill you anytime they want is exactly that…. A religion or time period where they decided when and if they are going to kill you?…. NOW is that a relgion, or a mass murdering killing extravaganza with decorated buildings with a disguise of worship?
C



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Whose Grace is sufficient

posted September 8, 2010 at 5:42 pm


Mr. Incredible says:
Don’t let the scoffers define “love”.Worldly ‘love’ is not biblical ‘love’…
Charles Thomas says:
Christianity does not teach that “worldy” love is antithetical to “biblical” love.
Mr. Incredible says:
The Word of God points out that the world’s love is the opposite of “biblical”/God’s love.
Charles Thomas says:
It simply claims that human love is an imperfect relection [sic] of God’s love.
Mr. Incredible says:
I’m gonna guess that you mean “rejection.”
The Word of God says that the world’s love will not save you, that you should not seek the world’s love. So, I don’t.
As I say, “love,” in the biblical sense, is “unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, at least as much concern for others’ Salvation as you have for your own.”
God sent His love — that is, the Word. It would’ve done God no good to keep His love to Himself.
Our unselfish concern for the Salvation of others, as well as concern for our own Salvation, moves us to send out God’s Word cuz He is the only One who has the power to save us. In other words, it does us no good to keep God’s love/Word to ourselves.
God knows — and we know — that the world wants not to see, nor hear, the Word of God. That’s cuz the world is selfish, and the world doesn’t save anybody. The God kinda love is unselfish, and saves all who receive His love through His Word.

JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS !



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name -- there's no other name by which we must be saved

posted September 8, 2010 at 6:03 pm


This goes to show that the Muslims worship an object, a book. To them, the Koran book is, itself, holy.
The Bible is a physical book. There are many Bibles — that is, many translations, versions and variation. Too many believe that all of them are the Word of God, the only one can be. There is only One Way, not many.
Jesus said, “My Words, they are spirit…” Therefore, that one Bible represents the Word of God Which is in the spiritual, the supernatural. We worship Him in spirit and in Truth. We don’t worship the physical book which is the shadow of the real “Thing.”
So, for those who ask how we’d feel if somebody would burn the Bible [which one?], while we would view it as disrespectful and discourteous, in reality, bottom line, it’s only a book [after all, people have been burning down churches and burning Bibles, you don't see Christians carrying on the ways the Muslims do]. The real “Thing” can’t be burned. He endures. They wouldn’t be able, ever, to burn up enough Bibles [which one?] to damage the Word of God.
To the Muslims, burning the Koran is the poke in the eye. Well, so is the Hamasque a poke in the eye.

“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.” — Jesus



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Mr. Incredible

posted September 8, 2010 at 6:06 pm


CORRECTION, in the Name of Jesus
many translations, versions and variation. Too many believe that all of them are the Word of God, the only one can be.
— — >
many translations, versions and variations. Too many believe that all of them are the Word of God, though only one can be.



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Your NameMr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Chief Cornerstone

posted September 8, 2010 at 6:19 pm


JESUS CHRIST — THE WAY, THE TRUTH AND THE LIFE — THE ONLY WAY TO THE FATHER !

HG says:
Some of [our troops] are going to die because this pastor thinks it important to chuck rocks at a hornets nest.
Mr. Incredible says:
“Because” this pastor thinks??? Is THAT justification???
I expect you not to answer cuz you agreed with Q Public [whatever his first name is] that you would ignore me. Of course, you could reverse yourself and make yourself look silly. Or, should I say, “sillier.” We’ll leave that up to you.
HG says:
All Americans will be seen in this light by some Muslims…
Mr. Incredible says:
Yes, in the same way that you people blame this pastor for offending ALL Muslims, though he intends to direct the burning of the Korans toward the extremists.
HG says:
…and it will serve as a recruitment tool for extremists.
Mr. Incredible says:
Anything we do serve as a recruitment tool for extremists. We can’t live our lives tippy-toeing around, worrying that we may, possibly, perhaps, could offend somebody. They offend us, and it doesn’t stop them, nor us, from living our respective lives.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted September 8, 2010 at 11:56 pm


Charles Thomas says:
…atheists are defending the concept of religious liberty…
Mr. Incredible asks:
What is the atheists’ “religious” liberty protected by the First Amendment?
Charles Thomas says:
…while many of the people who claim to believe in God are arguing against it
Mr. Incrfedible says:
‘Cept that we aren’t arguing against it. We ask only for clarification of what the “religious” liberty of atheists is, given that they say they “don’t believe” there is a God.
“Religion” requires a belief, not no belief, and the First Amendment speaks to that belief. Atheists argue from negation, that they have no such belief. If there is no “religious” belief, there is no “religious” liberty to protect. The First Amendment doesn’t speak to general “belief” in something, rather belief in the supernatural, particularly God. It is a positive statement, not a negative one.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the manifestation of the Son of God

posted September 9, 2010 at 3:10 am


Rich says:
…as well as generally salubrious.
Mr. Incredible translates that:

“Lookit me, everybody! I gotta thesaurus!”



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name above all names

posted September 9, 2010 at 3:55 am


HG says:
…the Universe has never expressed a desire for worship…
Mr. Incredible says:
None that you can pick up, anyway, cuz you don’t have the experience with God that Believers have.
HG says:
…those who don’t believe in any God…
Mr. Incrfedible says:
So, those who don’t believe have no “religiosity” about them and no need for the “religious” liberty protected by the First Amendment. Ok, we get it.
HG says:
…feel most in need of the constitutional protections of religious liberty.
Mr. Incredible asks:
What “religious” liberty do those who reject all “religion” have if they they don’t worship, nor practice?
HG says:
The uproar over the belief, by many, that Obama “is Muslim”…
Mr. Incredible says:
He IS muslim cuz Islam says that the son of a Muslim is Muslim.
HG says:
…should never have arisen in a country, such as ours, which has no religious test.
Mr. Incfredible says:
I can go into the polling place and apply a “religious” test, if I wanna, and nobody may stop me.
HG says:
“Either your with us, or your against us” becomes the ultimate mentality in such contests.
Mr. Incredible says:
Jesus said that you’re either with Him, or against Him.



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Your Name

posted September 9, 2010 at 5:25 pm


AP: “Pastor Terry Jones said Thursday that he decided to cancel his protest because the leader of a planned Islamic Center near ground zero has agreed to move its controversial location. The agreement couldn’t be immediately confirmed.”



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Your Name

posted September 9, 2010 at 5:43 pm


AP: “Jones said Imam Muhammad Musri of the Islamic Society of Central Florida told him that officials would guarantee that the mosque would be moved.
‘I asked him three times, and I have witnesses,’ Jones said. ‘If it’s not moved, then I think Islam is a very poor example of religion. I think that would be very pitiful. I do not expect that.’ ”



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Your Name

posted September 9, 2010 at 5:44 pm


So is a Jihad part of the Muslim faith…?
Is it an Islamic thing to kill people when they are not of their faith…?
Do we have to answer the question…?
c



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Your Name

posted September 9, 2010 at 5:59 pm


AP: “On Thursday, Jones said Pentagon chief Robert Gates had called him to urge he back off. A Pentagon spokesman said he had no information about such a call.”



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Your Name

posted September 9, 2010 at 6:25 pm


Reverend Lynn appeared with Jim Wallace on the EDshow on MSNBC today. I liked his common sense appeal to simply explain our legal system to Muslims, and to not pander to kooks as this administration has done.
Jim Wallace was right too, pastor Jones was “slapping the face of Jesus”.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus ou of Whose mouth proceeds Gracious words

posted September 9, 2010 at 7:00 pm


The imam of the Hamasque and Terrorist Recruitment and Induction Center of New York City denies that there is an agreement to move the HTRICNYC. The cancellation of the Koran burn is based on the assurance of a Florida imam that the HTRICNYC will be moved to a non-offensive site.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the True Light

posted September 9, 2010 at 7:03 pm


Your Name
Jim Wallace was right too, pastor Jones was “slapping the face of Jesus”.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Oh, really? How so?



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name above all names

posted September 9, 2010 at 7:07 pm


What is that the Word says about “another gospel”??



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Son of God

posted September 9, 2010 at 7:16 pm


cc aks:
So is a Jihad part of the Muslim faith…?
The Koran answers:
Yes.
cc aks:
Is it an Islamic thing to kill people when they are not of their faith…?
The Koran answers:
Pff! Uhhh, YEAH-uh.
cc aks:
Do we have to answer the question…?
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s answered as many times as one wants-ta read the Koran and see for themselves.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, our One and ONLY Savior

posted September 9, 2010 at 9:37 pm


SCOTUS says that burning the American Flag is ok, Freedom of Speech.
The U.S. government tells the Army to burn Bibles sent to Afghanistan.
Insurgents in Iraq burn down churches.
Oh, but, we should be offended at the notion of a pastor burning the Koran. Uh-huh.
What’s wrong with this picture?



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Gwyddion9

posted September 9, 2010 at 10:24 pm


it’s amusing to watch the GOP beat their drum about Islam and watch the hatred come out of the wood work.
The Mosque isn’t being built on ground zero but rather in a place some blocks away. Why can’t people seem to catch this? I say it’s because they’re looking for something to hate and justify that hatred.
What losers!



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HG

posted September 9, 2010 at 11:26 pm


I must agree with Gwyddion9, the party who says “No” has been no shining beacon. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that operatives of the GOP are coaching pastor Jones in this media hyped tit for tat between New York and Florida on the 9/11 anniversary. The tea-baggers official response is to be Christianly and condemn burning the book, but Palin and “the Boehner” equated it to this community center/mosque project. As a sensitivity issue they may be similar, and I give credit to Christians in that they seem to have evolved into a somewhat less violent reactionary group of people than Muslims.



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Charles Thomas

posted September 10, 2010 at 12:53 am


“‘Cept that we aren’t arguing against it.We ask only for clarification of what the ‘religious’ liberty of atheists is,given that they say they ‘don’t believe’ there is a God.”
“‘Religion’ requires a belief,not no belief,and the First Amendment speaks to that belief.”
Likewise,an atheist can ask for clarification of what the “religious” liberty of Christians is,given that most of them say Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
They don’t claim to “believe” God exists,they claim to “know” God exists.
The First Amendment doesn’t so much speak to belief per se,as it does to the right of each individual to hold, speak and express any kind of personal conviction or belief that he or she wants,whether religious,non-religious,or anti-religious.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Son of God

posted September 10, 2010 at 3:44 am


AND THE LIGHT SHINETH IN DARKNESS; AND THE DARKNESS COMPREHENDED IT NOT.

Gwyddion9 says:
it’s amusing to watch the GOP beat their drum about Islam and watch the hatred come out of the wood work.
Mr. Incredible says:
We’ll see how funny you think it is in November.
Gwyddion9 says:
The Mosque isn’t being built on ground zero but rather in a place some blocks away. Why can’t people seem to catch this? I say it’s because they’re looking for something to hate and justify that hatred.
Mr. Incredible says:
The site of the Hamasque Ground Zero Terrorist Recruitment and Indoctrination Center was bombarded by the landing gear of one of the planes that slammed into WTC. That makes that site part of Ground Zero.
Gwyddion9 says:
What losers!
Mr. Incredible says:
That’s what you’ll be calling your own people in fewer than two months.

“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.” — Jesus



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the Name above all names

posted September 10, 2010 at 3:45 am


“THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK UNTO YOU, THEY ARE SPIRIT, AND THEY ARE LIFE.” — Jesus

HG says:
I must agree with Gwyddion9…
Mr. Incredible says:
You would.
HG says:
…the party who says “No” has been no shining beacon.
Mr. Incredible says:
In other words, we don’t agree with you. So what.
HG says:
I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that operatives of the GOP are coaching pastor Jones in this media hyped tit for tat between New York and Florida on the 9/11 anniversary.
Mr. Incredible says:
We’re not surprised that you think that.



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who came to us in Grace and Truth

posted September 10, 2010 at 3:46 am


JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS !

Mr. Incredible says:
‘Cept that we aren’t arguing against it.We ask only for clarification of what the ‘religious’ liberty of atheists is,given that they say they ‘don’t believe’ there is a God…’Religion’ requires a belief,not no belief,and the First Amendment speaks to that belief.
Charles Thomas says:
Likewise,an atheist can ask for clarification of what the “religious” liberty of Christians is…
Mr. Incredible says:
However, atheism is not considered a “religion.” Christianity is considered to be a “religion.” “Religious” activity is recognized by the First Amendment.
Charles Thomas says:
… given that most of them say Christianity is not a religion but a personal relationship with Jesus Christ.
Mr. Incredible says:
It IS a personal relationship with God, through Christ.
However, although it doesn’t fall under the definition of “religion,” as being “ceremonial observance,” it falls under the general perception of “religion,” correct, or not, and, therefore, is covered by the First Amendment.
Charles Thomas says:
They don’t claim to “believe” God exists,they claim to “know” God exists.
Mr. Incredible says:
Christians are referred to as “Believers.” The Word of God calls on us to “believe.” We believe cuz we know. We know cuz we have matched our experience of God with the Knowledge He has given us.
Charles Thomas says:
The First Amendment doesn’t so much speak to belief per se,as it does to the right of each individual to hold, speak and express any kind of personal conviction or belief that he or she wants,whether religious,non-religious,or anti-religious.
Mr. Incredible says:
However, the First Amendment protects practice and worship. Practice and worship are positive steps toward so-called “religious” activity. The atheist argument is that of negation which solves nothing, resolves nothing and answers nothing. The First Amendment does not address the atheist position. It protects practice and worship, not no practice and not no worship.



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted September 10, 2010 at 4:02 am


Charles Thomas says:
The First Amendment doesn’t so much speak to belief per se,as it does to the right of each individual to hold, speak and express any kind of personal conviction or belief that he or she wants,whether religious,non-religious,or anti-religious.
Mr. Incredible says:
We understand that you wanna make it seem to say what YOU want it to say.
However, the first part of the First Amendment — the “religion” clause — speaks to those and about those who hold what can be considered in the widely general sense to be “religious” sentiments. Atheists say that atheism is not a religion. They say they “don’t believe” in God. They say they “don’t believe” that He exists. Therefore, the Freedom to practice and worship belongs to those who, in the positive direction, not the negative one, believe. The First Amendment is not a statement of negation.
Now, most of us know that atheists believe something within the realm of “religion.” They deny this. They say they “don’t believe.” We know they believe. In THAT sense, then, they have a “religious” belief, since they hold a position on “religion.” They, however, denied. So be it.
So, since they don’t believe, in the First Amendment addresses belief, atheists are not included in the so-called “religion clause” of the First Amendment.



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Mr. Incredible

posted September 10, 2010 at 4:05 am


CORRECTION, in the Name of Jesus
the Hamasque Ground Zero Terrorist Recruitment, Induction and Indoctrination Center



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, the Light of the world

posted September 10, 2010 at 4:13 am


JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS !

Gwyddion9 says:
it’s amusing to watch the GOP beat their drum about Islam and watch the hatred come out of the wood work.
Mr. Incredible says:
Actually, had you been paying attention, you would’ve noticed that there is no official party line in this.
By the way, what you give at least some mention of the hatred Muslims have for us? It’s a two-way street, y’know.



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KT

posted September 10, 2010 at 10:46 am


Mr. Lynn’s arguments loose their strength by his presupposition that a mere one percent of the population cannot affect the other 99 percent. This is not true in politics or economics, and given the agenda of Islam, neither is it true in religion. Our financial future is in the hands of a very small minority of very wealthy individuals with a definite economic agenda. The same is true of our powerful and ambitious politicians who, for the most part, operate more on the fear of loss (money, prestige, position, inclusion,reputation, etc.) than on personal principal and integrity. If the U.S. cannot be taken by force, a lesson the British learned in 1776, then they will take it insidiously through the backdoor by legislation and tactice that support their agenda – any informed person is aware of this. islam is no different, and one does not have to look far to discover this. Either Mr. Lynn is woefully naive, or his belief system has so clouded his ability to reason that he cannot see the big picture. His superficial arguments cannot be taken seriously anymore than one would take the arguments of a ranting child or uninformed teen.



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Frank

posted September 10, 2010 at 1:36 pm


Mr. Indigestible, you make Jesus Vomit!



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Your Name

posted September 10, 2010 at 4:34 pm


I do not believe our economic future is in the hands of the wealthy majority…. thank you very much…
Somewhere in life you have to believe that God is in control of your destiny… so, to place such power of your belief in others who may or may not care if you live or breath would be quite possibly a deadly circumstance if they are your sole source of support…
Love,
C
p.s. Especially if they use you for all your worth, and do not give you a penny for any work while they sit by and silently watch you suffer, while they pull away with all their money…. Talk about selfish and full of themselves… And no, I don’t think your doing God’s work if that is the way you conduct your fincance… I think your full of it….



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Your Name

posted September 10, 2010 at 4:37 pm


Especially when they are the people who put you in that circumstance to begin with… and then they took you for all that you were worth…
That’s people for you… Especially the people that you cared about and gave of yourself so much… , and then to see them give what you need to others and watch you suffer, while they prance what you need in front of your face… And then they say, ow ya , we are protecting you…. while they go out and get another little piece of the pie… What a joke…. and I am not laughing….



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Charles Thomas

posted September 11, 2010 at 1:23 am


“So,since they don’t believe,in the First Amendment addresses belief,atheists are not included in the so called ‘religious clause’ of the First Amendment.”
To use your logic,if the First Amendment addresses only religious belief,then that means that Christianity and other religions are included in the prohibition against a state establishment of religion,but Atheism and Secularism are not.



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lovelystill

posted September 14, 2010 at 6:24 pm


To B.Lynn:
“By dying, Christ left four nails, and Mohammed seven swords” – Victor Hugo (1802 – 1855) and “Belief in a cruel god makes a cruel man” – Thomas Paine (1737-1809).
America, as a matter of fact, is a Christian nation, 78,4% of adult population in the US are Christians. I’m not a Christian myself, but don’t have any problem with the Christians and Christianity. I’m also not affiliated with any political or other party, which gives me some kind of objectivity. To be fair I don’t have any problem with the moderate Muslims, too. I believe in all human rights, and don’t take them for granted, because I’m a legal immigrant from an oppressive country, and entered the USA with the refugee status about 20 years ago.
And I really appreciate all the wonderful things it has to offer, as no other country in the world has. I’m also against all kinds of radical extreme no matter what side it’s coming from. As a patriot of my country I’m very concern watching it going to the wrong direction.
Ground Zero Mosque (Cordoba House, Community Center, Learning Center, Park51, now Cordoba House again – these crooks probably ran out of the titles for their Trojan horse) should “never see a daylight” nowhere near Ground Zero.
“The dead cannot cry out for justice; it is a duty of the living to do so for them”.
And Mr.Lynn and other phonies can go to…Iran!



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Catherine

posted September 14, 2010 at 9:41 pm


Mr Lynn,
Forgive me for saying so, but what planet did you just drop from?
This is not an isolated area and certainly did not start at Ground Zero. With the grace of G-D it WILL end at Ground Zero. Do you realize Mr Lynn, that there are currently 32 Jihadist training camps across the United States? One of which was run VIA SATELITE by Sheik Gilani – the same Gilani who ordered the beheading of Daniel Pearl?
Are you aware Mr Lynn, that 95% of the Mosques across the country are involved in terrorist groups, organizations and or funding? Are you aware Mr Lynn, that 98% of Mosques across the GLOBE has heavy artillary within the walls or in secret rooms? Are you aware Mr Lynn, that most of the muslim recruitment comes from our prisons by Imams like Faesal Rauf? All of which have Hamas or Muslim Brotherhood ties.
Are you aware Mr Lynn, that withing the last year there have been 5 Sharia Law and or Honor killings. One of whom was a NY CEO of Bridges TV station, BEHEADED his wife for filing for divorce, after years of abuse? The Muslim / Islamist father who shot and killed his two teenage daughters for having CHRISTIAN boyfriends -MULTIPLE TIMES AT POINT BLANK RANGE – their 911 call, and cries for help rang around the country. The Muslim/Islamist father who ran his daughter over with his car for being too AMERICANIZED?
Are you aware Mr Lynn, That Walid Shoebat claimed to have been involved in Jihadist acts, as a TEENAGER and not an adult. Could it be that you are trying to discredit him for becoming Christian, or for exposing the mindset and religious reasons that Islamist commit acts of terror and jihad? Because Mr Lynn, the “article” I believe you are referring to was an article that Faesal Rauf wrote IN ARABIC and Mr Shoebat translated for the viewers. It was a very disturbing article too I might add. Walid Shoebat does not go on proverbial witch hunts, he simply points out WHERE in the Koran and Hadiths these acts must be carried out by ALL Muslims who practice Islam. One would think this information proves helpful.
Australia has the right idea Mr Lynn – abide by our laws, our constitution, our foundation and our freedoms or PACK YOUR BAGS! I have not heard one person say that Muslims cannot practice their religion, however when that religion has a pure political agenda and wishes to not only refuse our laws but change them – that is UNamerican Mr Lynn. The oath taken by our military as well as Presidents is to protect OUR Constitution from ALL enemies Foriegn AND Domestic. It is treason Mr Lynn to not protect our country and our Constitution. It is treason Mr Lynn to not secure our borders, and it is treason to send aid to terrorist organizations as our current Administration does today. 600 million dollars on hold to Palestine ruled by Hamas is shameful.
I have learned over the years that politics and religion do not mix. My suggestion Mr Lynn is to pick your battles wisely.
G-D Bless America



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Mr. Incredible

posted September 15, 2010 at 6:12 am


Frank says:
Mr. Indigestible, you make Jesus Vomit!
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, asks:
How do you know, as though you could? How do YOU know, as though YOU could?



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Mr. Incredible

posted September 15, 2010 at 6:24 am


Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, says:
So, since they don’t believe, in the First Amendment addresses belief, atheists are not included in the so called ‘religious clause’ of the First Amendment.
Charles Thomas says:
To use your logic,if the First Amendment addresses only religious belief…
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus, says:
It doesn’t, but “religion” gets first mention.
Charles Thomas says:
…then that means that Christianity and other religions are included in the prohibition against a state establishment of religion, but Atheism and Secularism are not.
Mr. Incredible says, in the Name of Jesus:
There is no atheism, nor secularism, as organized “religions,” to be established, nor practiced, nor any atheist “gods,” nor “goddesses,” for the State to establish and require everybody to worship.
However, everybody with any sense knows that atheism is a religion, since it takes a stand on “God.” But atheists deny this saying that they “don’t believe,” though they believe.
If what atheists say they believe is true, then they are shadow boxing.
In any case, atheists don’t enjoy the benefits of the “religion” clause of the First Amendment as long as they say they “don’t believe” cuz the FA establishes State non-interference with those who DO believe.



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Mr. Incredible

posted September 15, 2010 at 6:37 am


Frank says:
Mr. Indigestible, you make Jesus Vomit!
Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who calls me “friend,” asks:
Of how many ways to the Father was Jesus tolerant?



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Your Name

posted September 15, 2010 at 1:04 pm


Are you aware Mr Lynn, that 95% of the Mosques across the country are involved in terrorist groups, organizations and or funding? Are you aware Mr Lynn, that 98% of Mosques across the GLOBE has heavy artillary within the walls or in secret rooms?
I didn’t know this was a comedy blog!



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Charles Thomas

posted September 15, 2010 at 8:44 pm


“However,everybody with any sense knows that atheism is a
religion,since it takes a stand on God.”
If everybody knows that atheism IS a religion,then atheism as everybody defines it IS protected by the religion clause of the First Amendment.
“In any case,atheists don’t enjoy the benefits of the religion clause of the First Amendment as long as they say they ‘don’t believe’cuz the FA establishes State non-inteference with those who DO believe.”
The First Amendment prohibits the state from interfering with those who DON’T believe as well.
You just want to argue that belief(unless that belief is Islam,of course)is protected from government interference,but that non-belief is not protected,and that government has authority to prohibit atheism.



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Your Name

posted September 16, 2010 at 9:02 pm


Woman Admits Acid Attack Was Self-Inflicted: “Storro originally claimed a black woman with a ponytail threw acid in her face… Storro said she held the news conference then to draw attention to efforts to find the attacker, but also to talk about her faith.” “I’m here today because of Jesus Christ” she said at the time.
Is religious zealotry an indicator of mental instability? Yes, a pretty good one.



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Your Name

posted September 16, 2010 at 11:35 pm


Tea-Party implodes amid early scandals? Lack of intelligence AND ethics aren’t normally considered desirable qualities in candidates for public office.



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Your Name

posted September 23, 2010 at 2:41 pm


Yes, I believe in equal rights of citizenship in this country, that does not include killing others or conspiring to kill others through religious acivities, masked as personal freedom….
End of story…c



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Your Name

posted September 23, 2010 at 3:28 pm


Right, it doesn’t. Never has.



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Bible Hoax

posted September 25, 2010 at 12:27 pm


“…they will take it insidiously through the backdoor by legislation and tactice that support their agenda – any informed person is aware of this.”
“…superficial arguments cannot be taken seriously anymore than one would take the arguments of a ranting child or uninformed teen.”
This person responded to their own post!



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus Who withdraws not His eyes from the Righteous!

posted September 25, 2010 at 5:02 pm


“Bible Hoax”
Mr. Incredible asks:
Which one is the hoax?



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arlenice

posted November 5, 2010 at 10:09 am


It is troubling, as many commentators have expressed: Why is Obama traveling to India promptly and immediately after the elections; considering that he knew that Republicans would have winnings? Why did he go while the daughters are suppose to be in school? why did he take so many deluxe planes and warships? why did he go with the nuke controls and secret information and everything that would enable him to turn on us and aim nuclear missiles against America?
Why has this man caused so much fear and allowed dangerous radical Muslims into our country and protected them from being duly processed and duly punished & decreased their punishment and/or deleted their punishment and/or trials! Why has he paid fortunes to keep his identity a secret? Why is he dead set on breaking us financially? Why are we allowing it? Where are the Military Generals that oathed to protect America? -Only God Almighty can protect us from these devious individuals and partakers. God Bless America.



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arlenice

posted November 5, 2010 at 10:12 am


It is troubling, as many commentators have expressed: Why is Obama traveling to India promptly and immediately after the elections; considering that he knew that Republicans would have winnings? Why did he go while the daughters are suppose to be in school? why did he take so many deluxe planes and warships? why did he go with the nuke controls and secret information and everything that would enable him to turn on us and aim nuclear missiles against America?
Why has this man caused so much fear and allowed dangerous radical Muslims into our country and protected them from being duly processed and duly punished & decreased their punishment and/or deleted their punishment and/or trials! Why has he paid fortunes to keep his identity a secret? Why is he dead set on breaking us financially? Why are we allowing it? Where are the Military Generals that oathed to protect America? -Only God Almighty can protect us from these devious individuals and partakers. God Bless America.



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