Lynn v. Sekulow

Lynn v. Sekulow


The Supreme Court Missed the Mark

posted by Jay Sekulow

Barry,

 

This decision is both disappointing and troubling.  By a vote of 5-4, the Supreme Court dealt a damaging blow to First Amendment law for religious organizations in the case of  Christian Legal Society v. Martinez. 

 

The Supreme Court was presented with the following question: “May a public law school condition its official recognition of a student group–and the attendant use of school funds and facilities–on the organization’s agreement to open eligibility for membership and leadership to all students?”

 

By a one vote margin, the high court upheld the University of California-Hastings College of Law’s application of its policy withholding Recognized Student Organization status from any group that excludes members on the basis of religion or sexual orientation (among other things) to the Christian Legal Society (CLS).  

CLS sought to ensure that its members and leaders would adhere to a statement of faith and code of conduct, including the belief that sexual activity should not occur outside of a marriage between one man and one woman.

 

CLS said it could not abide by the school’s non-discrimination policy. That policy forbids student groups from discriminating on the basis of, among other things, “religion.”   CLS says its religious beliefs prevent non-Christians from exercising control over the group by becoming voting members or serving in leadership positions. 

 

This decision significantly limits the constitutional rights of religious organizations. The Court missed the mark in understanding that it is fundamental to religious freedom and the freedom of speech that religious groups are free to define their own mission, select their own leaders, and determine their own membership criteria.  By permitting a problematic decision by the federal appeals court to stand, the Supreme Court decision represents, as Justice Samuel Alito correctly concluded in the dissent, ‘a serious setback for freedom of expression in this country.’ 

 

We have argued that the First Amendment prohibits a public law school from denying recognition to a religious student group because the group requires leaders and members to agree with its core religious viewpoints.

 

We filed an amicus brief with the Supreme Court in the case representing more than a dozen Christian leaders and organizations active on college and university campuses – including Fellowship of Christian Athletes, Campus Crusade for Christ, InterVarsity Christian Fellowship, Young Life, the Navigators, and the Fellowship of Catholic University Students.   

In our amicus brief, we spelled out very clearly our belief  that religious groups are constitutionally protected in following their religious beliefs.

 

“Religious groups by their nature embrace religious principles and, as a matter of organizational identity and coherence, will normally require adherence to such principles as a criterion for membership and certainly for leadership,” the brief asserted.  “This is not ‘discrimination’ but rather part and parcel of what defines them as religious groups.  Wooden application of religious ‘non-discrimination’ policies therefore forces religious groups to choose between their religious identity and access to the forum.  That ‘choice’ is an unconstitutional one between yielding to government intermeddling and no access at all.  Far from a permissible condition on benefits, this is a choice that the government, under the Religion Clauses, has no business imposing on religious groups.”

 

Unfortunately, the majority opinion written by Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg concluded that CLS, in order to be recognized as a student organization,  must accept all students who wanted to join the group. “CLS, it bears emphasis, seeks not parity with other organizations, but a preferential exemption from Hastings’ policy,” she wrote.  “Compliance with Hastings’ all-comers policy, we conclude, is a reasonable, viewpoint-neutral condition on access to the student-organization forum.”  

 

But in a well-written and sound dissent, Justice Alito, joined by Chief Justice Roberts, and Justices Scalia and Thomas rejected the Court’s analysis calling the decision “a serious setback for freedom of expression in this country.”

 

As Justice Alito wrote:  “Our First Amendment reflects a ‘profound national commitment to the principle that debate on public issues should be uninhibited, robust, and wide-open.’ New York Times Co. v. Sullivan, 376 U. S. 254, 270 (1964). Even if the United States is the only Nation that shares this commitment to the same extent, I would not change our law to conform to the international norm. I fear that the Court’s decision marks a turn in that direction. Even those who find CLS’s views objectionable should be concerned about the way the group has been treated – by Hastings, the Court of Appeals, and now this Court. I can only hope that this decision will turn out to be an aberration.”

 

Justice Alito disagreed with the Court’s characterization of the school’s policy as a neutral “accept-all-comers” policy, noting the existence of numerous recognized organizations at the university that could be harmed by such a policy, including political, pro-life, pro-choice, religious, ethnic identity, feminist, and animal rights groups.

 

The impact of the high court’s flawed analysis raises further concern. Justice Alito compared the Hastings policy to a hypothetical state law, stating, “The State of California surely could not demand that all Christian groups admit members who believe that Jesus was merely human. Jewish groups could not be required to admit anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers. Muslim groups could not be forced to admit persons who are viewed as slandering Islam.”

 

It is our hope, like Justice Alito, that this decision will be an aberration and not a shift in First Amendment jurisprudence.

 

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Rich

posted July 1, 2010 at 10:08 am


This case does not damage religious freedom in any way, to say so is to be disingenuous.
CLS is still free to have a club that hates whomever it wants to hate. Any group can organize a club of any kind and engage in all sorts of religious beliefs and practices. No one is stopping anyone from doing these things, they just cannot be a publicly supported and funded group.
The problem for CLS and Mr. Sekulow is that they want everyone to pay for these kind of groups. Jay whines only about some supposed loss of freedom of religious expression for CLS. It is very interesting that Jay and his theocratic ACLJ don’t seem to give a whit about the freedom of religious expression of those who don’t want to financially support CLS. Per ACLJ they have to support a discriminatory group. An atheist student has to help pay for a group that would deny him membership, a black student for the KKK club and a gay student for CLS.
It is pretty simple, unless the entire public join the group, the public shouldn’t have to support the group. In America, you are free to have any religious group you want, you are not free do demand access to my wallet.



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Rufus Hill

posted July 1, 2010 at 3:47 pm


I believe that Christian groups should be able to exclude those who do not believe in the Divinity of Christ or who are NOT seeking to believe
in the Divinity of Christ. I do NOT believe that those who profess to be Christian but are openly gay or bisexual or involved in fornication or adultery should be excluded from a Christian group. Debate whether the latter are true Christians should be stimulating and perhaps persuasive in some instances that their beliefs are Christian. And indeed in some instances the latter may be more Christian than “holier=than-thouers” who should “judge not that they be not judged”
But to have someone, or a group, of those who adamantly deny that Christ is divine or are dogmatic atheists to be in a group that is for Christians would lead to nullification of the very concept that it is Christian group.



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James

posted July 1, 2010 at 4:39 pm


I challenge anyone to review the bylaws of other student groups in Hastings and tell me how they aren’t excluding non-agreeing memebers and leadership. Check out the BLSA bylaws for instance…
http://www.uchastings.edu/student-services/docs/bylaws/bylaws-blsa.pdf
A brief excerpt:
“General membership in BLSA may consist of all matriculated students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law, who are committed to the purpose of this organization as stated in Article III of this constitution.”
If you aren’t “committed to the purpose of” their organization, then you can’t become a member…let alone leadership. Shouldn’t this group be banned as well?



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DSJulian

posted July 1, 2010 at 5:15 pm


Nice try, James. If you are going to make the parallel, then the BLSA would have to exclude non-blacks and black GLBT students for no other reason than they are not black or are GLBT. During the civil rights struggles there were a lot of us whiteys who supported the rights of minorities of color, just as there is nothing in the BLSA constitution that denies admission to non-black, pro BLSA students.
Gay Christians should not be denied access to a Christian group unless that group is outrightly bigoted against gays — which is not even a universal Christian position. I don’t know how many ways you have to say this: public institutions are prevented by law from even respecting an institution of religion, never mind supporting one. Groups with sectarian religious beliefs are not clubs or societies. They are religious institutions, regardless of how they try to superficially disguise themselves.



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James

posted July 1, 2010 at 7:03 pm


DSJulian, I respectfully disagree with multiple points in your response. And for the record, I’m only using the BLSA as an example. There are other group bylaws with similar wording.
DSJulian said: “If you are going to make the parallel, then the BLSA would have to exclude non-blacks and black GLBT students for no other reason than they are not black or are GLBT.”
It’s all about the wording. They state: “General membership in BLSA may consist of all matriculated students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law, who are committed to the purpose of this organization as stated in Article III of this constitution.”
This implies that if one is NOT “committed to the purpose of this organization as stated in Article III of this constitution” then they are NOT welcome to be a member. It’s tricky wording that was obviously used to stay out of trouble. Article III states:
It shall be the purpose of BLSA:
1. To articulate and promote the professional needs and goals of Black law students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law
2. To foster professional competence among Black law students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law
3. To provide an environment which will promote unity and camaraderie among Black law students
4. To influence society as well as the legal community to bring about meaningful change in the legal system to meet the needs of the Black community
5. To motivate and facilitate successful matriculation through the law school and bar passage process.
6. To cultivate relationships with Black law students and Black attorneys.
Now, tell me this: If the CLS used this exact wording (substituting “Black” with “Christian”, would you agree that there would be no problem?
DSJulian said: “Gay Christians should not be denied access to a Christian group unless that group is outrightly bigoted against gays — which is not even a universal Christian position.”
The “universal Christian position” should be what Jesus Christ (Christ follower = Christian) teaches in the Bible. These teachings clearly show that idolators, sexually immoral, and homosexuals will not enter Heaven (1 Corinthians 6:9). Being unapologetically “gay” and being a “Christian” isn’t even a possibility…just as being unapologetically “lustful” or “sexually immoral” or “manipulative” or “murderous”. It’s a dichotomy, one cannot be both at the same time.



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Your Name

posted July 1, 2010 at 7:26 pm


Re:
Rich
If CLS is truely a Christian body or organization, then it would not be organizing anything to hate…cc



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Ross Ferrell

posted July 1, 2010 at 7:41 pm


Religious groups can exclude anyone they want. Islamic groups can exclude Christians. Jews can exclude Buddhists. Such exclusionary groups cannot be state sponsored. The United States is based on the idea of religious liberty, not an established religion. That has allowed religion to flourish. To roughly quote Jefferson, what does it matter whether my neighbor believes in 20 gods or none; it does not break my leg or pick my pocket. We may be a country full of Christians, but our founders decided not to make us a Christian country. In that, they were wise.



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My Name

posted July 2, 2010 at 7:17 am


Dear Jay Usukatlaw,
Seek another profession. You’re obviously biased and compromised by your beliefs. Secular law is supposed to protect everyone and be applied equally, not just protect your religion from the rest of us or to give religion exception. This ruling was spot on. As soon as you let a nazi group use your house for meetings and use your bank account to buy swastika patches for their uniforms I’ll take you at your word, until then I think you’re very disingenuous and are doing this country a disservice. You and Pat are about as un-American and unchristian as two people can get.
Kudos to your doctor though, the hair plugs look very believable.



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My Name

posted July 2, 2010 at 7:43 am


James,
You forgot unapologetically fat (gluttony) or lazy or unapologetically a shellfish eater or unapologetically divorced or unapologetically wearing fabric woven from 2 threads or unapologetically working on the Sabbath or unapologetically touching the skin of a pig or unapologetically a gossip. Basically, using your logic none of us are Christian. You just like to cherry pick this particular rule to justify your prejudice. As for the teachings of Jesus Christ that you purport to be citing, Jesus spent a great deal of time talking about people that liked to use the word of God to make themselves feel superior to the rest of God’s children, the Pharisees and Sadducees. These people were rebuked by Jesus Christ for basically boiling down religion to a list of rules, as you are doing here. His message for them was God works in our lives in more ways than just your rules. Look up the lesson Jesus gave while helping the paralytic in Mark. Maybe you should spend more time learning about Jesus and less time feeling superior, pride cometh before a fall. Just sayin. And in your studies you’d see Jesus never actually spoke about homosexuality. Odd that he wouldn’t considering how often you super Christians like to make it the end all be all subject of God’s word. He does however talk a lot about the need for humility and love and addressing your own short-comings before pointing fingers. Kind of a live and let live message.
I guess we can just forget about that when it comes to those dirty dirty homo’s though right? Afterall, Christians have the monopoly on morality and should be treated as superior, especially in the United States. Forget that meek shall inherit the earth junk. (That’s sarcasm by the way)



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James

posted July 2, 2010 at 3:54 pm


My Name,
The key word is “unapologetically”. I’m not claiming that I’m perfect, neither are any true Christians. The very fact that someone chooses to become a Christian is an admission of guilt and humility. We are all sinners, period. The difference is that Christians choose to recognize\admit their sins and align themselves with the Jesus. This is a lifelong process.
Thanks,
James



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Your Name

posted July 2, 2010 at 4:29 pm


And yes Jesus teaches of turning from sin.
Tired of the hypocrites, who call themselves Christian.
Although, I have seen the real Christ character, in people as well…
It does not have to be in a fancy dress or great suit or sit in front of a pulpit, with hair and nails just so, to show who God is……..! Being humble is in the nature of God. So arrogance and superiority complex are not in-line…That is all that I have to write on that one…cc
p.s. Jesus is the one who makes you qualify…., thanks anyway….He knows who I am and what I stand for…, regardless if people think they are more then because they have a world recognized ministry…
It is the heart of a person that makes the difference..



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Your Name

posted July 2, 2010 at 4:33 pm


I still believe in taking good care of yourself. For in his Word, he says that we are the temple of God…
So stay clean to show his reflection….



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My Name

posted July 2, 2010 at 11:45 pm


James, are you seriously that obtuse?? Are you actually arguing that there are apologetic crab and bacon-eaters? Do you seriously think the majority of Christians are repenting after their grand slam breakfast and choosing to eat bacon no more? Will you be going into your closet and throwing out all your poly/cotton blends?? My point was that the rules are so abundant and bizarre that we all fall short, heteros and homos alike. You seem to have missed that.
Your Name got it absolutely right though, it is the heart of the person that makes the difference.
So James how about you stop using your prejudice to stereotype 30 million Americans and 600 million human beings. I am quite sure that ‘homosexual Christian’ is no more an oxymoron than a ‘Crab-eating Christian’. So either attack each Red Lobster establishment as vehemently as you do gays and lesbians and cast out every wool/silk suit or get off your high horse and practice what you preach. Everyone’s path to Jesus is different. You admitted it yourself, it’s a lifelong process.



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Your Name

posted July 3, 2010 at 7:34 pm


Although there is a comment in the new testament which contains the fact that one should not worry about what they eat, there is also the scripture which contains subject matter in the old testament that we are not to eat shell fish..



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 4:33 am


==Although there is a comment in the new testament which contains the fact that one should not worry about what they eat, there is also the scripture which contains subject matter in the old testament that we are not to eat shell fish.–
Remember that the Devil is the one who likes to remind us of the restrictions, not the Freedom under God. Law is restriction. “Religion” means “bound, or to bind.” Christ sets free those who receive Him, and that’s why Christianity is not a “religion.”
Christ says that it’s not import what goes into the mouth cuz it comes out the other end. What is important, He says, is what comes out the mouth [reference Proverbs 18:20-21, as a start]. He says that, out the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks. So, the evil heart will speak evil, and the heart that is abundant in the Word of God will speak His Abundance Which is Christ.
However, those who are not born again are still under Law which, Christ says, is the ministry of condemnation and death.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:02 am


==Jesus spent a great deal of time talking about people that liked to use the word [sic] of God to make themselves feel superior to the rest of God’s children, the Pharisees and Sadducees.==
Who are God’s children?
==…Jesus never actually spoke about homosexuality.==
Jesus was God on Earth. God says that what we now call “homosexuality” is an abomination. Therefore, Jesus said it.
Jesus, answering a marriage/divorce question by the doubters, said that a husband and wife may divorce cuz God joined only a man and a woman — WHAT, not who.
There is no instance in the Word of God that displays the Godly, matrimonial unit as being other than the union of a man, as husband, and the woman, as his wife, simulating the relationship between Christ and His Church.
==Odd that he wouldn’t considering how often you super Christians like to make it the end all be all subject of God’s word.==
It pretty much is cuz the “marriage” of Christ to His Church is simulated by the marriage of a man, as husband, and a woman, as his wife.
==He does however talk a lot about the need for humility…==
In the face of what and whom??
==…and love…==
Define “love,” as a biblical concept.
==…and addressing your own short-comings…==
He came to show us that we cannot do it of our own might. He came to show us that He will do it, if we receive God through Him.
==… before pointing fingers.==
Where does the Word of God say that those who are born again are not to “point fingers”?
== Kind of a live and let live message.==
Jesus told us to do what He does. Did He live and let live and tell us to live and let live? If so, why did the Pharisees get mad at Him?
In fact, God tells us, through Christ, NOT to keep silent. He tells us to speak the judgment of His Word far and wide, loud and clear.
Adam kept quiet, even though he was right there, seeing and listening to the filthy conversation in which the Devil engaged his wife. He said nothing. No correction. No rebuke. Nothing. He had the Word of God, and, as the husband, had the authority and responsibility to speak, and he didn’t. He let her lead him, and still said nothing. Maybe he was afraid she’d get mad at him. Maybe he thought that she would leave him and say to her girlfriends, “He drove me away from God!” SO WHAT?!?!? God’s Word is more important than that. His job was to give her/remind her of the Word God gave them. Then, he blamed her, didn’t take responsibility for his action/inaction. Tsk, tsk. And this kinda thing is happening today! Those who are born again do not make that mistake again.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:17 am


==James…Do you seriously think the majority of Christians are repenting after their grand slam breakfast and choosing to eat bacon no more?==
Jesus said that what goes into the mouth does not defile the man, rather what comes out of the mouth.
Those who are born again are not under the Jewish customs God insisted the stubborn Jews follow to the letter.
However, God told not only the Jews but Man that what we now call “homosexuality” is an abomination. God is made up of three Persons: Father, Son, Holy Spirit. So, Christ says it, too.
==My point was that the rules are so abundant and bizarre that we all fall short, heteros and homos alike. You seem to have missed that.==
Those who receive Christ and abide in Him and He in them wanna change. Those who willfully and willingly continue in sin are still under the Law whose requirements they cannot satisfy of their own might. Those who are born again recognize that they don’t have the might to follow the Law to every jot and tittle; the, then, got Grace and do not willingly and willfully sin.
There is sin unto death, and sin not unto death. Willful and willing sinners sin unto death. They want no change, and, in fact, tell us they cannot change. Those who are born again sin not unto death cuz they wanna change and they work for change with the help of God through Christ.
==…it is the heart of the person that makes the difference.==
What kinda heart is that?
==I am quite sure that ‘homosexual Christian’ is no more an oxymoron than a ‘Crab-eating Christian’.==
Except that it is, as explained above.
==So either attack each Red Lobster establishment as vehemently as you do gays and lesbians and cast out every wool/silk suit or get off your high horse and practice what you preach.==
No need since those who are born again are not under the Law.
==Everyone’s path to Jesus is different.==
Not scriptural, of course.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:23 am


By the way, God’s Covenant with me — a better Covenant with better promises — is through His Son, Christ Who is the Word, not through Law which is the ministry of condemnation and death.
So, to tell us of the legal restrictions is to try to condemn those Christ has saved. That’s what the Devil does. It’s what the world does.
But God said…[Romans 8:1 KJV].



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:56 am


The fact is that what we now call “homosexuality,” as an abomination, is reiterated in Romans supported by the fact throughout the Word of the joining of a man and a woman — WHAT, not who. So, this carries over to the New Covenant.
Dietary and fabric rules and regs are Jewish custom — to which God held the rebellious Jews who felt/feel that Law saves them — is not reiterated in, nor do they carry over to, the New Covenant. In fact, Acts 10 removes them from the life of those who are born again. Those not born again and those who refer everybody to the laws of Jewish custom abide by them still cuz they are prisoners of them.



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Your Name

posted July 6, 2010 at 9:55 am


O gawd, yet ANOTHER thread gets hijacked by the Not-credible One.
Jay, police your site, ‘kay?



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Rich

posted July 6, 2010 at 10:01 am


Yep, Mr. Incredible, the guy who actually hears the voice of Jesus in his head, is back again to spew his ridiculous nonsense that Christianity is not a religion.
Of course, any sensible person knows it is a religion.



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Rich

posted July 6, 2010 at 10:04 am


Actually, who cares what the Bible may or may not say about being gay or gay marriage. The Bible has nothing to do with American law, nor should it. Let those who want to bind themselves to biblical restrictions do so, there is no reason why those who aren’t Christians should be bound by this nonsense.



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James

posted July 6, 2010 at 11:31 am


If it wouldn’t be too much trouble, please change the “Your Name” field to your actual name (or at least something different) to aviod confusion when replying. Thanks. :)
I do have to say that Mr. Incredible does have valid points from a Biblical perspective.
Back to the original topic though, DSJulian, can you respond to what I had written? Thanks.
DSJulian said: “If you are going to make the parallel, then the BLSA would have to exclude non-blacks and black GLBT students for no other reason than they are not black or are GLBT.”
It’s all about the wording. They state: “General membership in BLSA may consist of all matriculated students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law, who are committed to the purpose of this organization as stated in Article III of this constitution.”
This implies that if one is NOT “committed to the purpose of this organization as stated in Article III of this constitution” then they are NOT welcome to be a member. It’s tricky wording that was obviously used to stay out of trouble. Article III states:
It shall be the purpose of BLSA:
1. To articulate and promote the professional needs and goals of Black law students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law
2. To foster professional competence among Black law students at the University of California Hastings College of the Law
3. To provide an environment which will promote unity and camaraderie among Black law students
4. To influence society as well as the legal community to bring about meaningful change in the legal system to meet the needs of the Black community
5. To motivate and facilitate successful matriculation through the law school and bar passage process.
6. To cultivate relationships with Black law students and Black attorneys.
Now, tell me this: If the CLS used this exact wording
(substituting “Black” with “Christian”, would you agree that there would be no problem?



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Your Name

posted July 6, 2010 at 2:02 pm


On another note, Jesus came to fufill the law..
So it is interesting to note, in old testament that we are not to eat shell fish..
If you notice in that scripture it is for healing…, or pork for that matter
———–
So, I believe it a wise decision to not eat pork or shell fish still, even if you are a new testament born again person…
So, I have heard that shell fish pick up toxins from the ocean floor and pigs have no sweat glands to rid the toxins out of their body..
So, that would just back up the facts that these particular things are not good to eat, for they rid the planet of toxins…
Even if you cook them at high temperatures, they are what they are, animals and species which rid the planet of waste material..which would be a part of their muscular tissue once they eat it.
So, I would suggest if you are still going to eat these things, drink allot of water afterward and try and flush them out of your system with fruits, vegetables, and grains…cc organic, if you can find it.



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HG

posted July 6, 2010 at 4:06 pm


Religion: 1)a belief in a divine or superhuman power or powers to be obeyed and worshipped as the creator(s) and ruler(s) of the universe.
Strange how some people can say belief in God is not religion, but claim Atheism is.
Rich: “The Bible has nothing to do with American law, nor should it. Let those who want to bind themselves to biblical restrictions do so, there is no reason why those who aren’t Christians should be bound by this nonsense.”
Right on.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:18 pm


Rich says:
Yep, Mr. Incredible, the guy who actually hears the voice of Jesus in his head…
Mr. Incredible says:
Revelation 3:20 [KJV]
Rich says:
… is back again to spew his ridiculous nonsense…
Mr. Incredible says:
Of course, it’s ridiculous to YOU. But so what?
Rich says:
…that Christianity is not a religion.
Mr. Incredible says:
Webster’s 1828 Dictionary — Religion
RELIGION, n. relij’on. [L. religio, from religo, to bind anew; re and ligo, to bind. This word seems originally to have signified an oath or vow to the gods, or the obligation of such an oath or vow, which was held very sacred by the Romans.]
Christ does not bind. If Christ frees you, you are free indeed.
Rich says:
Of course, any sensible person knows it is a religion.
Mr. Incredible says:
Especially the “sensible” person who agrees with YOU.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:31 pm


Acts 10, for the born again person, does away with Jewish, dietary custom.
In any case, in the Old Testament, God did not apply Jewish custom to Man. God held rebellious Jews to the statutes, laws, ordinances, rules, regulations and customs those Jews said would save them true observation. In other words, God told them that, if they think that such observance will save them, then they MUST follow them to the last jot and title or be guilty of violating all. Those who are born again are not held to that standard, even though scoffers try to assign guilt to us for not observing them.
In the New Testament — that is, the better Covenant with better promises — God relieves those who are born again from any connection to observe those statutes, laws, ordinances, rules, regulations and customs of rebellious Jews.
The difference is between what God gives us for Moral understanding and conduct, and what men think it takes to please God. “Religion” is the system of rules and regulations men think that, if followed, will save them. Islam is such a “religion.” “Religion” is men’s attempt to reach out to God, when, in fact, God has already reached out to Man, through Christ. Therefore, such a “religion,” like Islam, denies Christ.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:40 pm


Rich says:
Actually, who cares what the Bible may or may not say about being gay or gay marriage.
Mr. Incredible says:
You don’t. But so what?
Rich says:
The Bible has nothing to do with American law…
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that biblical principles exist throughout. The Founders were informed by the Word of God. The influence of the Word of God is found throughout our sense of justice.
Rich says:
… nor should it.
Mr. Incredible says:
VALUE JUDGMENT ALERT! VALUE JUDGMENT ALERT!
Rich says:
Let those who want to bind themselves to biblical restrictions do so…
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that those were born again are set free from being bound and from restriction. It is those who promote the Law — that is, the ministry of death and condemnation — who are into binding and restriction.
Rich says:
… there is no reason why those who aren’t Christians should be bound by this nonsense.
Mr. Incredible says:
And, yet, they are. Just cuz you reject it doesn’t mean it’s not there.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:48 pm


There is an agenda to intimidate so-called “religious” clubs on campus to invite and include hostile elements. The purpose is to introduce a component of chaos in the clubs. The agenda, of course, is from the pit of Hell.
How would campus clubs that cater to and promote homosexuality react to the infiltration of Christians? Would they be welcomed? Would the Christians get a word in edgewise? Of course not. There would be uproar, chaos and hostility.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 5:53 pm


Rich says:
Yep, Mr. Incredible, the guy who actually hears the voice of Jesus in his head…
Mr. Incredible says:
Yes, and I have three angels following me all the time, and I know their names: Goodness and Mercy. Oh, and the third is “Surely.”



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 6:02 pm


CORRECTION
save them true observation — – > save them through observation
the last jot and title — – > the last jot and tittle



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Your Name

posted July 6, 2010 at 8:25 pm


Re: HG
Let us have all of the definitions of the word religion, if you are going to highlight it….
religion-
1a: the state of a religious



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 9:47 pm


Great work, cc!!
In addition, G2356, from G2357, says that religion, as it is meant in the Word of God, is a CEREMONIAL OBSERVANCE.
Of course, Christianity is not ceremony-based, rather relationship-based, and, therefore, Christianity is not a “religion.” Scoffers can’t get that.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 6, 2010 at 9:50 pm


God does not all us to ceremony, rather to relationship, through Christ.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 5:07 am


God does not all us to ceremony —-> God does not call us to ceremony



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:04 am


Your Name
O gawd, yet ANOTHER thread gets hijacked by the Not-credible One.
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s not credible to say that any one poster has “hijacked” this thread. No one poster has precluded anyone from posting. Each one is doing what other posters are doing — that is, posting. We are all called to post. If you can stop scratching your butt and sniffing your fingers long enough, you can use those fingers to scroll past the post of anyone you prefer not to read.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:10 am


DSJulian says:
Gay Christians…
Mr. Incredible says:
[weeeoooo weeeeoooo weeeooo!] OXYMORON ALERT! [weeeoooo weeeeoooo weeeooo!] OXYMORON ALERT! [weeeoooo weeeeoooo weeeooo!] OXYMORON ALERT!



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Rich

posted July 7, 2010 at 8:39 am


Mr. Incredible,
Please, think more, post less.



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2010 at 3:20 pm


What?
By the way that your name post was not mine. cc
As for scratching one’s butt or whatever, I was not there.
cc
p.s. As for the super so called Christian’s, well God told us to be humble. Not to sit around and exalt ourselves in a pretty little bible circle and say everybody and somebody else is a filthy dirty rag and we are these holier then though creatures on earth….
Nope, that would be a hypocrite…
We are to point out to eachother in a gentle way,he sinful nature of quite possibly theirs, and that is only after we have examined our own….
And we are not supposed to partake of his body(bread) and his blood (wine) unworthily, meaning not reflecting on our own sinful nature and putting it before the Father…
So, these little gossipy chitty chat bible studies, if they are to ridicule and condone, that is not biblical as well….
Love, remember……Love God, love ourselves and love other people..
That means forgiveness…..cc



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 3:50 pm


Rich says:
Mr. Incredible, Please, think more…
Mr. Incredible says:
I already am.
Rich says:
… post less.
Mr. Incredible says:
No.
Now what?



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 3:58 pm


Rich says:
… post less.
Mr. Incredible says:
My posts are over-taxing your giant intellect, huh.
Well, if my posts are too much for you, just scroll past them.
It’s quite funny that my posts — just one guy — cause you so much grief when, as I say, all you have-ta do is scroll past’em and POOF!no more grief, no more headaches.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 4:07 pm


Rich says:
… post less.
Mr. Incredible says:
Why should I, when I gots d’resources t’post mo’ and do it quickly, with nar’ any effort? As I’ve said before, a number of times, you don’t know how easy it is.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 4:31 pm


cc says:
As for scratching one’s butt or whatever, I was not there.
Mr. Incredible says:
Neither was I, but I’m sure it wasn’t a pretty sight.
My point, though, was that those complaining about my post and the number of them may and can easily avoid their headaches by scrolling past my posts which are easily identifiable. Unless, of course, their fingers are too busy doin’ somethin’ else.
cc says:
We are to point out to eachother in a gentle way…
Mr. Incredible says:
Are the following verses an example of “gentle”:
(Mat 3:7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
(Mat 12:34) O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
(Mat 23:33) Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
(Luk 3:7) Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Sometimes, you must step on toes to get their attention. Jesus thought it was more important to deliver the Message of God’s Reconciliation than to worry about whether somebody would get mad.
In the Garden of Eden, the Devil engaged Eve in filthy conversation. Adam, knowing in his heart what God told him, looked on, saw what was happening and heard the filth being exchanged. Yet, he said nothing, though it was his job to say something. Was he afraid that his wife would get mad at him? Did he fear her going to her girlfriends and saying, “He drove me from God!” Was he afraid that she would divorce him? Was he afraid that she would say that he was using the Word of God to interfere with her Rights? If any of that is true to any degree, he let fear cloud his judgment. He put his fear ahead of God and what God told him. So, Adam’s sin was not only that he ate the fruit, but that he also kept quiet and, instead of Godly leading the wife, let her lead him away from what God told them and to stand in the congregation of the Devil.



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Rich

posted July 7, 2010 at 5:14 pm


Mr. Incredible,
re: “In the Garden of Eden, the Devil engaged Eve in filthy conversation”
Good grief! Grow up! That stuff and believing that stuff is moronic at best, the symptoms of a disturbed mind at worst.



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:10 pm


Re: Rich
What is a disturbed mind to you, Rich?
Would that be one that does not agree with your religious beliefs?
As for moronic, that would be those who believe that God created us and gave us no sence of instructions to live by and the idea that we are here for only ourselves.



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:12 pm


sense- Any of the faculties by which stimuli are received and felt, as the faculties of hearing, sight and equilibrium.
cc



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:17 pm


As for the devil and his culprits, they can show up in tight little jeans strutting there stuff to high heaven eyeing you man from across the room to get what they want, which could be just to destroy your reputation, your self-worth, your marriage, your relationship, your bank account. All for themselves…..cc
Not to mention the girls in the adds taking something away from the girl who deserved it….An idea, a job, a husband, a committed relationship, a car, a house, money to support the children..
I don’t care if your in a mock dress of past princess, truth betold that was not you originally nor does it indicate the quality of a person inside…
I have found that when others love you, they don’t say she can’t handle it and I can…, just to get recognized for some selfish purpose of recognition…..
Friends are the people who stuck by your side, they didn’t sit there with your husband dressed just so, so they could get them for themselves. So don’t give me this quiet little voice, like is she all right…, you were the one who did it to her…, remember…
cc



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Your Name

posted July 7, 2010 at 6:22 pm


Lord have mercy on their souls, I don’t think that they don’t know what they do…, I think they do…
Why would they seek to destroy a person in what he or she needed…?
Would that be for themselves to gain?
The answer yes
So the bible says bless your enemies…
So when others are trying to destroy your life are you supposed to send them a gift or tell somebody to give them more favor in a particular field…
Just maybe God sometimes, I would have wanted you to confront them instead of taking more from the person who wants to love…Maybe they were the people or person who should have had some bad awful thing happen to them…
And no, there is no sypathy when you show up trying to claim something that was somebody elses gift or talent..
I find you to be insulting at the very least, and quite superficial in your content…
so…..



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 7, 2010 at 11:51 pm


Rich says:
Mr. Incredible,
re: “In the Garden of Eden, the Devil engaged Eve in filthy conversation”
Good grief! Grow up!
Mr. Incredible translates:

“Coooommmmmmme to the dark side, Luuuke!”

Rich says:
That stuff and believing that stuff is moronic at best
Mr. Incredible says:
In YOUR world. So what?
Rich says:
…the symptoms of a disturbed mind at worst.
Mr. Incredible says:
Hitler said the same thing about his opponents.



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Rich

posted July 8, 2010 at 12:06 am


Mr. I,
While I know that believing in magic is not so much of a stretch for someone who actually hears voices in his head, the rest of us find it a little disturbing. The worshipper speaking in tongues is as equally insane as the person on the street corner talking to his shoestrings. Normally, the street person has worse hygiene but beyond that, I just don’t see a big difference.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 2:12 am


Rich says:
While I know that believing in magic is not so much of a stretch for someone who actually hears voices in his head, the rest of us find it a little disturbing.
Mr. Incredible says:
Things are tuff all over. You people need to get a life.
Rich says:
The worshipper speaking in tongues is as equally insane as the person on the street corner talking to his shoestrings.
Mr. Incredible says:
["Is as equally insane as." Beautiful.]
You’re in no position to know.
Rich says:
Normally, the street person has worse hygiene but beyond that, I just don’t see a big difference.
Mr. Incredible says;
Of course you don’t. You can’t.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 4:18 am


Rufus Hill says:
…”judge not that they be not judged”
Mr. Incredible asks:
Is at all Christ — that is, the Word of God — says on the subject??



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 4:22 am


My Name says:
Everyone’s path to Jesus is different.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Where is that in the Word of God?



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Rich

posted July 8, 2010 at 9:25 am


Mr. I,
Just as a side note, some personal observations I have made in the last week that relate to the whole ‘America is a Christian nation’ nonsense.
I live in Seattle but a business conference has landed me in New Orleans for about a week. Now, I am 56 years old and don’t even drink so New Orleans would never be my ideal choice for a getaway spot. However, the one thing that one notes is that the majority of folks strolling around here seem mighty found of alcohol, music, sex and good food, I can’t speak to the order of preference.
Now the thing is, I don’t think people are ever going to give this kind of stuff up, it is just too much fun and people like it too much. And, the truth is, I think what I see down here is more akin to what America really is rather than any popular image of Americans being pious Christians. Sure, people may give lip service to being Christians but their real behavior indicates something a bit more complex.



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M Villa

posted July 8, 2010 at 12:15 pm


“The worshipper speaking in tongues is as equally insane as the person on the street corner talking to his shoestrings.”
It has been my experience that all those who do not believe in speaking in tongues “…as the Spirit gave utterance…”, have not experienced the Holy Spirit abiding in their hearts. This is not to say that they have not felt MOVED by the Holy Spirit. The Lord Jesus said, concerning the Holy Spirit, “…whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, nor knows him: but YOU know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be IN you.”



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Your Name

posted July 8, 2010 at 4:31 pm


Re:
Rich
I will agree with you there, on the point that some Christian’s behvior is definitely in line with Christian. Like you wrote, a lot of it is lip service…
The hard part is when your a Christian by beliefs and consider the bible as truth, then we are to forgive people..
Which the bible states that we are to forgive 7 times 70. Which is basically over and over again..
The situation that I am having is that I see the Christian community being so self-righteous(not all). The old adage, of trying to take the speck out of another with a huge plank in their own…
Not enough self-examination, I find…
So what I am trying to say is, if your going to confess that you are a Christian, do us all a favor and do what is says. And when you mess up, admit that you are a failure and not perfect. Wrather then your perfect and everybody else is at fault…
That is what I find to be so nauseating…, the kettle calling the kettle black.., or the kettle lieing about the truth to protect their own self image…..
The bible teaches us to be humble……cc



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Your Name

posted July 8, 2010 at 4:35 pm


behavior-
The manner in which one behaves.
——————
As for the behavior of many, well let me just say some people enjoy being evil…. The smiles on their faces while they inflict pain is what I find to be so evil…
People actually enjoying being evil. It does not matter how they are dressed. I have found this to be true, even in some of the best dressed people. Never judge a book by the cover…., they may be rotten inside….cc



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 6:45 pm


Rich says:
… the whole ‘America is a Christian nation’ nonsense.
Mr. Incredible says:
America was Founded on Christian principles.
Rich says:
…people may give lip service to being Christians but their real behavior indicates something a bit more complex.
Mr. Incredible says:
What is being “real Christian,” biblically-defined?



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 6:48 pm


If a real Christian follows Christ, what does a real Christian do?



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Rich

posted July 8, 2010 at 11:37 pm


Mr. I,
re: “If a real Christian follows Christ, what does a real Christian do?”
Well, since you asked, and given that I am always accomodating to those afflicted with Christianity, I am delighted to answer your question.
So, what do real Christians do:
- They plague the rest of mankind because their odious religion seems to recommend spreading the news, the misery loves company syndrome. This often involves wearing ill-fitting suits and darkening my doorstep with inane cosmological theories.
- They become so fixated within their cult that the bizarre begins to seem realistic to them and they slowly turn into insane people who believe in the ridiculous and the impossible.
- They are so certain of the tenets of their cult that attempt to force everyone else to adhere to the rules of their cult.
- Every now and then, and if in a position of sufficient political power, they classify many as heretics and then murder them in the most delightful ways.
- Worst of all, the stultifying influence of cultish brain atrophy causes them to create and then listen to Christian rock.
-etc. (Mr. I, why ask me, you know all these things)



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 8, 2010 at 11:53 pm


Rich asks:
… why ask me…
Mr. Incredible says:
Cuz I wanted to see whether you, a scoffer, would post the same old lies. You didn’t disappoint me.
Rich says:
…you know all these things…
Mr. Incredible says:
I know that scoffers are steeped in the same old lies.



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Still Scoffing

posted July 9, 2010 at 9:27 am


Mr. I,
You use the word ‘scoffer’ as if it were a bad thing.
Also re: “Cuz I wanted to see whether you, a scoffer, would post the same old lies. You didn’t disappoint me.”
Hmmm, sounds dramatic and all but please point out one lie. Seems to me they are all concrete facts, of course, you and facts are light years apart.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 9, 2010 at 6:51 pm


Still Scoffing says:
Mr. I,
You use the word ‘scoffer’ as if it were a bad thing.
Mr. Incredible says:
Regarding what?
Mr. Incredible says:
Cuz I wanted to see whether you, a scoffer, would post the same old lies. You didn’t disappoint me.
Hmmm, sounds dramatic and all but please point out one lie.
Mr. Incredible says:
I’ve pointed them out as we’ve gone along.
Still Scoffing says:
Seems to me they are all concrete facts…
Mr. Incredible says:
Whose “facts”?
Still Scoffing says:
… of course, you and facts are light years apart.
Mr. Incredible asks:
Whose “facts”?



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 10, 2010 at 5:34 am


Rich says:
…I am always accomodating to those afflicted with Christianity…
Mr. Incredible says:
Except that Christ saved us from affliction.



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Your Name

posted July 10, 2010 at 5:19 pm


Ow ya, Christ saved us from affliction…eh?
Well what about the trial and the tribulations…He does not say he will always deliver you out of them, of course you can pray for this or that, but it does not mean that you will not have to go through it….
That is the hard part about it….
So for those who have had enough of the pain of it all, what about that , what if the word says he will never give you more then you can bare…and you think that he has about tapped into the overflow of your tolerance of pain…
Was he not supposed to bring you out of effliction…..ow ya, paience, self-control….long suffering…Ow ya, we have to love the long suffering part eh?
Nope can’t say that I do…..
And another note I think people that actually love God find it hard to swallow when the cruel evil people seem to get away with murder and the like…even if it trying to murder another persons soul?
And I find it even more vomitous when it is from a professed Christian….?????????????
That’s when the old sang wolves in sheeps clothing and I don’t care if they appear to be leading a church….they can still be wolf to me….cc



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 10, 2010 at 6:00 pm


cc says:
Ow ya, Christ saved us from affliction…eh?
Well what about the trial and the tribulations…He does not say he will always deliver you out of them, of course you can pray for this or that, but it does not mean that you will not have to go through it…
Mr. Incredible says:
Neither God, nor Christ, has said that evil will not come at you. Some of it will get through and hurt you.
HOWEVER, They have said that evil has no license to RULE over you, that it has no authority over you. With the authority in and of the Name of Jesus, YOU have authority over it.
The Christ — that is, the Word of God — says submit yourself to God, resist the Devil and he will flee from you. He doesn’t say that the Devil MAY flee from you.
Confess the promises of God, through Christ. Don’t confess the curses. Don’t rehearse the curses.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 10, 2010 at 6:09 pm


cc says:
So for those who have had enough of the pain of it all, what about that , what if the word says he will never give you more then you can bare…
Mr. Incredible says:
God does not bring you pain. Pain is the jurisdiction of “the other one.”
cc says:
…people that actually love God find it hard to swallow when the cruel evil people seem to get away with murder and the like…even if it trying to murder another persons soul?
Mr. Incredible says:
I think the Book of Job, for one, answers this. In summary, they don’t get away with it.
However, YOUR job is, through Christ, not to give the hurt authority over you. You give authority to the pain simply by having “conversation” with it. You give it license by “reasoning” with it. Through this “conversation,” you find “reason” to live in it, to go back to Egypt, in a sense.



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Your Name

posted July 12, 2010 at 2:15 pm


Well yes, I suppose I understand what you are saying…
But like anything else in the world such as in Job,
God brought down his hedge, remember, and let the devil subject him to all this pain for whatever reason that was..
So, God gives you the emotion of hurt and pain, the problem that I see is when you see the devil succeeding even for a moment of things, which can be quite difficult….and yes it does cause pain…
\
The devil comes to kill, steal and destroy, remember…
And that my dear friend hurts, people……cc



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 13, 2010 at 1:42 pm


cc says:
But like anything else in the world such as in Job,
God brought down his hedge, remember, and let the devil subject him to all this pain for whatever reason that was..
Mr. Incredible says:
Job was upright. Righteous. God didn’t test him for God’s sake, rather for Job’s sake.
cc says:
So, God gives you the emotion of hurt and pain
Mr. Incredible says:
Hurt and pain came into the world when sin entered the world, through Adam and Eve.
The issue is no longer whether sin is in the world, and, with it, hurt and pain. The issue is whether you’re gonna give hurt and pain authority over your life. Hurt and pain have no authority over you that you don’t give them. The Devil, in the Garden, had no authority over Adam and Eve that they didn’t give the Devil.



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Your Name

posted July 19, 2010 at 2:54 pm


Ow, Mr. Incredible…
for Job’s sake…..?
Ow are we supposed to be tested with a whole bunch of death and evil against us, so we don’t curse God…?
————————————–cc
I find that a bit odd, only to say that God has the timing for everybody to pass on, to death, hell and the grave…
And to say thing evolve us into being more like him, and He never gives us more then we can bare… And I have heard that God really trust us when He gives us a real doosy…, it is just when all these things have happened to us all, and we think this is more then we can bare, then we hear of somebody who had it or has it worse then yourself….
And of course I know it is a sin to complain…
So, we are to count our blessings….cc



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Your Name

posted July 19, 2010 at 2:57 pm


things…



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 21, 2010 at 6:11 am


cc aks:
Ow, Mr. Incredible…are we supposed to be tested with a whole bunch of death and evil against us, so we don’t curse God…?
Mr. Incredible says:
It’s not the tribulation. Rather, it’s how we react. He doesn’t say that tribulation will not come.
Do we react by confessing the Blessings, or the curses? God tells us to choose the Blessings. There are those who say they are Christian who confess the curses. Go figure.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 21, 2010 at 9:05 am


When God told Abraham/Abram to take Isaac to the mountaintop alter to sacrifice the boy, an angel of God stopped him in mid stroke. The “test” wasn’t for God to see whether Abraham/Abram had faith, rather for Abraham/Abram to see that he had faith. God knew he had faith. Abraham/Abram had to see, for himself, and God provided the vehicle for him to see.



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Mr. Incredible

posted July 22, 2010 at 10:19 am


Proverbs 18:5 tells us why we are right and correct, why those who would like to introduce chaos and disruption to CLS are wrong.



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