Lynn v. Sekulow

Lynn v. Sekulow


National Day of Prayer is Constitutional

posted by Jay Sekulow

Barry, I’m sure you’re aware of a lawsuit filed by the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) in Wisconsin challenging the constitutionality of a 1988 federal law giving the President the authority to designate the first Thursday in May as a National Day of Prayer. We just filed an amici curiae brief  representing 31 Members of Congress–including Rep. J. Randy Forbes of Virginia, who chairs the Congressional Prayer Caucus–asking the court to dismiss the lawsuit.

It’s clear that the National Day of Prayer observances are consistent with the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and are deeply embedded in the tradition and history of the United States. As you know, the time-honored tradition of American leaders designating days of prayer and thanksgiving dates back to the founding era. The Continental Congress recommended that the states set apart a day for prayer and thanksgiving, and George Washington began a longstanding practice of calling the nation to prayer followed by nearly every president. Even the drafter of the First Amendment, James Madison, issued several proclamations calling the nation to a day of prayer.

The appendix to our brief catalogues hundreds of examples of presidential proclamations and other calls to prayer from colonial times to the present day. The brief notes that, “[d]espite the long history of official government acknowledgment of the role of religion in American life, there are still those who, like FFRF, seek ‘relentless extirpation’ of all religious expression and reference from public life.” Our brief explains that Supreme Court cases acknowledge that the Establishment Clause must be interpreted in light of longstanding historical practices that are part of our national heritage. For example, the Court has declared that “historical evidence sheds light not only on what the draftsmen intended the Establishment Clause to mean, but also on how they thought that Clause applied to the practice authorized by the First Congress–their actions reveal their intent.” Marsh v. Chambers, 463 U.S. 783, 790 (1983).

Barry, I’m sure you’d prefer that presidents stop issuing National Day of Prayer declarations, but you have to admit that it is constitutional for them to continue this longstanding tradition, right?

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jimbino

posted March 20, 2009 at 2:09 pm


Jay,
You have to be naive to think that there are not a hell of a lot of folks here like me, who will fight to become atheist chaplains, offer prayers to Bin Laden, etc. Do you imagine that the Founding Fathers specified a prayer, and if so, did they adhere to that of the Catholics, Protestants, Jews, Deists or Atheists among them? They couldn’t even agree on a proper version of the Ten Commandments, for Darwin’s sake!
How will you feel when I force the USSA to allow me to pray to Socrates, justified by the First Amendment? These cases are coming down the pike. Beware.



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Mary-Lee

posted March 20, 2009 at 4:41 pm


What a shame the religious folks in this country actually needor want a National Day of Prayer. Those among us who truly worship G-d offer prayers of thanks to the Creator every day, many times a day. I laugh at you Christians who need to be reminded by Presidential edict to pray.



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Gwyddion9

posted March 20, 2009 at 4:48 pm


Having a National day of prayer doesn’t bother me. What bothers me is that this is much like the “see you around the flagpole” day of prayer, meaning unless you’re Christian, they won’t let you pray aloud. A friends’ daughter went to the flagpole day prayer and the adult there, after finding out that she is Wiccan, told her she couldn’t pray aloud, so she left. I was proud of her for standing up for her rights as well as showing the hypocrisy in the event.
If having a National day of prayer would allow all people to pray, I’d say fine but as it has shown me, the real only interest is promoting Christianity. But since this is the actual purpose of it, I say get rid if it.



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Diane

posted March 20, 2009 at 5:06 pm


Hi Jay! I read an article not too long ago that was sent to me by a dear friend of mine since who is a retired elder in the church. It stated that an atheist filed a lawsuit because Christians had Federal holidays, such as Thanksgiving and Christmas; Jewish people had their holidays as well, such as Yom Kippur, Passover, etc. Anyway, after hearing the argument presented by the attorney representing the atheist, the judge handed down his decision. He dropped the case with this statement, quoting from the Old Testament: “A fool in his heart says there is no God. Therefore, I declare that April Fool’s Day be your holiday.” I found it with a little humor, but with truth added to it. It is not my intention to intimidate or to insult anyone, but to share something profoundly true. It’s sad that we Christians are being hated for our beliefs, and it is coming down to legal court battles to protect our fundamental beliefs intact, up to and including the National Day of Prayer. After speaking with several of my family members about this important issue, all they have to say is, “Well, we will have to just keep praying that it doesn’t happen.” It seems to me that they just want to keep right on sleeping through it all. My question is simple. Why is it that atheists are so determined to silence Christians? What have we done that is so horrible to deserve this political abuse of the legal system? All we want is to be able to practice our faith and share our faith with anyone who will listen, and we should be allowed to disagree without being threatened with a lawsuit. This is not right, and we need to find a way to put a stop to this. Any response from you, Jay, would be appreciated. God bless everyone who posts.



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jimbino

posted March 20, 2009 at 6:31 pm


Wake up Diane:
We non-believers do NOT hate Christianists for their beliefs, but we will gladly engage oppressive Christianists in the battle to maintain our rights to imbibe booze, abort unwanted feti, have sex in non-PC positions with one or more persons of whatever sex, race and phylum.
It is the Christianists who are denying us our freedoms and we will continue to challenge y’all at all the flagpoles and in all the courtrooms of the world, until our inalienable rights are respected!
Get used to it. Hitchens, Harris and Dawkins have declared war on your oppression and I gladly join them.



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Nicholas

posted March 20, 2009 at 8:50 pm


“Relentless extirpation” I like that.



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Kira

posted March 21, 2009 at 12:31 am


Hear, hear! End the needless oppression of religious people by godless atheists. Thank you for defending our constitutional right to pray. Hail Satan!



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dsjulian

posted March 21, 2009 at 7:46 am


Diane: “Why is it that atheists are so determined to silence Christians? What have we done that is so horrible to deserve this political abuse of the legal system?” Diane, you deserve a valid answer, not simplistic rejoinders. First, you need to know that atheists don’t care what you believe. What they care about is what you might do to them because they don’t. Our country is very young. It is only 220 years old. In those 220 years American Christians have (1) murdered unbelievers as witches, (2) murdered unbelievers who are abortion doctors, (3) murdered Catholics for not being Protestants, (4) murdered Jews just for being Jews, and (5) genocidally murdered unbelieving American Indians. In the last century unbelievers witnessed Genocide by Christians in East Africa, West Africa, Bosnia, Ireland, and Lebanon, just to name a few. Don’t you think they have valid reason for concern? In spite of the claims of some recent religionists, the United States of America is a secular constitutional republican democracy. And that means, regardless of your personal religious beliefs, the Constitution is the supreme law of the land and it is interpreted by the Supreme Court of the United States. And though you are guaranteed your inalienable right to complete freedom of conscience, you do not have the right to impose your sectarian religious beliefs on someone else, period. In order to preserve that right, Article VI and Amendment I of the Constitution preclude any religious test as qualification for public office and any hint of favoritism toward any religious institution, period. Finally, Jay knows full well that a brief full of historical examples of Consitutional abuses of executive power is no excuse to continue the those abuses. He also knows that while conservative appointees outnumber the liberal appointees by 7 to 2, the chances of the Court hearing this case are less than slim and none. ACLJ has an amicus brief in the mix because they are starving for some kind of victory to power up a seriously demoralized base. For any government official, never mind the President, to publicly endorse a relgious exercise from his Office is blatantly unconstitutional. Sekulow has to use the “tradition” argument because he knows, like most of his cases, he doesn’t have a constitutional leg to stand on…



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Deborah

posted March 21, 2009 at 10:41 am


After reading these comments, especially the one’s from “jimbino” it is apparent that these comments are written by ignorant people. The truth will not be denied no matter how long and loud you protest. This is an age old battle between God and Satan, and people, if you have read the Word of God, you know who wins. Nothing you say will change this, for now, as always, God is in control. Our founding fathers worshipped God, the one and only true God, and God, in return, blessed this country. Now look at our country, hmmm, wonder why? You followers of the great deceiver who is Satan, have had your hearts hardened and even though you may deny the existense of either God or Satan it does not change it one bit. In the end, you lose and you will spend an eternity seperated eternally from God. Your ignorance will cost you more than you can ever imagine.



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Mary-Lee

posted March 21, 2009 at 4:18 pm


Our founding fathers worshipped God, the one and only true God, and God, in return, blessed this country.
Even if everything you say were true, Deborah, what do you think the Creator is? Hint: not a person that can be bargained with.
Do you really think this country was blessed when it denied rights to its minority citizens and to women, for instance? Get real, Deborah!



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J.R.

posted March 21, 2009 at 5:26 pm


Deborah,
You know it all don’t you? You are absolutely certain about all of your claims aren’t you? Religions, gods, devils and angels are an ever changing creation of human brains who have feared death and the unknown for thousands of years. Human brains that struggled to make sense of our earth and universe. Human brains who thought the earth was flat and at the center of the universe in which everything revolved around (your brain may still think this). We don’t have the capacity to be certain about what god is. In fact I believe it is an arrogant insult to god (if there is such a thing) that humans have devised all of these wicked, ridiculously demeaning stories and books about what they think god is or what god wants us to do. There have been many attempts, but all have fallen short and should seem silly to any educated person living in the year 2009!
“Question with boldness even the existence of a god, because if there be one, he would pay more homage to reason than that of blindfolded fear”- Thomas Jefferson. Your ignorance with regards to the framers of our constitution is clear. Thomas Jefferson was a deist as was Ben Franklin. James Madison clearly envisioned a secular democracy with a solid separation of church and state. You lunatic right wing zealots really need to educate yourselves about the history of this country and stop listening to the propaganda of your fundamentalist cohorts. “What is more probable: that the laws of physics and nature become suspended (such as in miracles) or that some bronze age middle eastern men told lies? The latter sounds more like what humans always do and the former is fantasy.
Our country has gotten better since it’s founding. You now have the right to vote Deborah! Don’t you think that Christianity and it’s male domination philosophy had something to do with women not getting the right to vote? The slave masters used specific phrases from the bible to justify their practices. Why doesn’t the ten commmandments have something denouncing slavery, rape or child abuse? It took people and a secular government, not god, to make these laws that protect everyones civil rights. Ever since we have broken away from theocracy and let secularism, science and reason prevail, we have come to a better way of life for all people, not just Christians. If we didn’t have the first amendment, we would be just like the middle east right now- an unjust, inhumane theocratic society.



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Cara Floyd

posted March 21, 2009 at 6:44 pm


Whether you believe in God or not, we do know that the unborn child is still a child being developed. So why does this nation have a right given to an individual over another individual being developed? Since when is a child an it, to be given a death sentence at the right of a murderous mother? confusion which should be changed. Children need rights to defend themselves over murderous laws of people who care more about their own agenda then the freedom of the individual to live. Posterity rights which need to be protected under our laws, seeing how there is an unequalized right being given to another. Cara Floyd



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David T.

posted March 21, 2009 at 6:53 pm


Do you think God wants the U.S. government to order people to pray? Of course not! Prayer should be done in private and silence, with a humble heart – not showing it off (Matthew 6:5-6). That is why I am against having the government declare a day of prayer.
-David T.



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Your Name

posted March 22, 2009 at 12:16 am


David T.
Iam pretty sure the national day of prayer is not an order to stand in the street and pray for one thing those self serving people that care more about themselves than others would run right over you and then try and sue you for being in the street in the first place. That aside if you are going to quote the words of Christ please do not paraphrase and understand what you are putting out there. Christ was talking about not making a spectecle of ourselves when we pray, like the hypocrites did in the synagogues they did that so as to say look at me I’m important. And that is not what the national day of prayer is about no one has said we have to pray on that day or how to pray for that fact. So please do not pick one paart of a verse of the Bible and make it fir what you aare trying to defend.



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Cara Floyd

posted March 22, 2009 at 8:33 pm


Mathew 6:5,6 King James Version 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into they closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to they Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.



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harryoutdoors

posted March 23, 2009 at 2:31 am


The Lord wants us to pray in all situations and Paul even says we should pray always.
We are taught lessons of humility through prayer…Christ taught us this lesson about the condition of our heart when praying…this is what He is talking about when He says to go into the closet and pray…His point is to not pray to be seen of Men…when we have pride issues we should cut them out by going in private.
When we have the proper attitude and humility we see by the following examples of prayer we can and should pray in public and with others.
As the verses following we see God places a great importance on prayer and allows us to do it in many various ways…He expects us to pray!
There are times of THANKSGIVING where we are expected to begin this with PRAYER:
17And Mattaniah the son of Micha, the son of Zabdi, the son of Asaph, was the principal to begin the thanksgiving in prayer: and Bakbukiah the second among his brethren, and Abda the son of Shammua, the son of Galal, the son of Jeduthun.
HERE WE ARE COMMANDED TO LET OUR GOOD DEEDS SHINE BEFORE MEN…we don’t always stay in a closet.
Matt 5:16 “In the same way, let your light shine before men, that they may see your good deeds and praise your Father in heaven.” (NIV)
PUBLIC PRAYER? YES! There are reasons for this…others see teh works of God!
James 5:14
Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:
Pray for one another …this comes right after and along with confessing our faults to one another…here again we see praying with others.
Of course Satan and evil hates for us to pray…here’s why we get resistance:
James 5:16
Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.
We are not alone when we pray…we outnumber the enemy…the eyes of prayer sees:
2 Kings 6:17
And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha.
2 Kings 6:16-18 (in Context) 2 Kings 6 (Whole Chapter)



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Your Name

posted March 23, 2009 at 10:17 am


Right on Jay! We very much appreciate you standing up for us!
Millions of Americans now participate in the National Day of Prayer each year (1st Thursday in May). Last May 1st, tens of thousands of prayer gatherings were held, covering every state. “Day of Prayer” declarations were made from the President of the United States and all 50 governors. Prayer observances were held in 110 federal prisons, YMCAs, national monuments, Indian reservations, military bases, stadiums, nursing homes, airliners crossing our nation, schools, town halls, in the Senate and Congressional chambers of many state capitols, and overseas in Afghanistan and Iraq. In addition to these public activities, people gathered to pray in their homes, churches, and other private places. They pray for our nation’s leaders and their families – not just Government but Military, Media, Business, Education, Church and Family.
You can find info on events, resources and prayer at http://www.nationaldayofprayer.org



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Brian Toon

posted March 23, 2009 at 10:28 am


The lawsuit named several government officials, including now-former President George W. Bush and Wisconsin Gov. Jim Doyle. The suit also named National Day of Prayer Task Force Chairperson Shirley Dobson, who is being represented by Alliance Defense Fund (ADF)attorneys. ADF has filled a Motion for Dismissal to the lawsuit.
Here is a great video from Alliance Defense Fund:
http://www.savethendop.org/



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Freestinker

posted March 23, 2009 at 3:23 pm


I wonder exactly who the President thinks atheists and other non-believers should pray to?



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Your Name

posted March 23, 2009 at 4:13 pm


And after the (ahem) “National” Day or Prayer, how will we know which god won?



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Cliff Snoates

posted March 23, 2009 at 4:26 pm


Diane,
” It’s sad that we Christians are being hated for our beliefs”
You aren’t being hated for your beliefs. You are being challenged because, at present, it is only your beliefs that seem to get government endorsement. In fact, the ‘foolish judge’ case you cited is proof – it was a Christian sentiment taken from from Christian Scripture.
Ain’t not all of Amuricans BE Christian.
“Why is it that atheists are so determined to silence Christians?”
Trust me, it isn’t just atheists that wish you would follow Christ’s command to pray in secret, in the closet, etc. But “silence” you? It is to laff. Au contraire, it seems you wish to impose Christian prayer, Christian belief on the entire nation, nay, the entire world.
Deborah,
“if you have read the Word of God”
Which version?
“Our founding fathers worshipped God, the one and only true God”
Revisionist history from the Christianists, I see. Will it never end?



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 23, 2009 at 6:18 pm


==…it isn’t just atheists that wish you would follow Christ’s command to pray in secret, in the closet, etc. ==
“Prayer requires retirement, at least of the heart; for this may be fitly termed the closet in the house of God, which house the body of every real Christian is, 1Co_3:16. To this closet we ought to retire even in public prayer, and in the midst of company.”
— Adam Clarke’s Commentary on the Bible
“And when thou hast shut thy door; see some such like phrases in Isa_26:20 where they are used to express security, here secrecy. Our Lord does not mean to exclude and condemn public prayer, in joining with few, or more persons, in such service; for he himself directs to it, and approves of it, Mat_18:19 but his view is to instruct persons that they should not only pray in public, but in private also; and especially the latter, which is more suitable and fitting for their particular cases, and less liable to pride, hypocrisy, and vanity.
— John Gill’s Exposition of the Entire Bible
“Of course, it is not the simple publicity of prayer which is here condemned. It may be offered in any circumstances, however open, if not prompted by the spirit of ostentation, but dictated by the great ends of prayer itself. It is the retiring character of true prayer which is here taught.”
— Jamieson, Fausset and Brown Commentary
So, it is not a literal closet, and He does not exclude public prayer.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 23, 2009 at 6:20 pm


==”if you have read the Word of God”
Which version?==
Now we know why you’re confused.
==”Our founding fathers worshipped God, the one and only true God”
Revisionist history from the Christianists, I see.==
Not revisionism, rather truth.
== Will it never end?==
Truth will never end.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 23, 2009 at 10:26 pm


==I wonder exactly who the President thinks atheists and other non-believers should pray to?==
To themselves, as usual.



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harryoutdoors

posted March 23, 2009 at 10:37 pm


“I wonder exactly who the President thinks atheists and other non-believers should pray to?”
Good question…since atheists know all and in that all knowing they have not known God…and they see all and in that all seeing do not see God…and they all powerful and in that all power have removed all obstacles pointing to there being a God.
Not to mention atheists are all present and in their every-whereness they cannot find God.
Then atheists can pray to themselves!



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 23, 2009 at 11:21 pm


Harry,
We’re gittin’ through t’somebody out there. We don’t have-ta git through t’everybody. The angels sing when just one is saved.



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Boris

posted March 24, 2009 at 12:40 am


Harry said: Research of Hebrew root word ELEPH shows the Exodus nation of Israel in the thousands and not millions. Atheists ignore truth even when made aware of it.
Boris says: Harry previously claimed ‘eleph’ meant ‘family’ instead 1000. He ignores the fact that ‘eleph’ represents the numeral 1000 and is used in not only counting people but in things like weights in say Numbers 7:85 and other places where we can see that the items are weighed in thousands of shekels using the same word ‘eleph’ to represent 1000. According to Harry’s translation the total weight of the silver was a few hundred FAMILIES, not a few sanctuary-shekels! ROFL! What Harry is trying to do is change the translation of the word whenever it fits his purposes – families instead of 1000 when it describes people and in the very same books it is supposed to mean 1000 and NOT families at all when counting objects. So to try to explain away one absurdity, the ridiculous number of people involved in the Exodus Harry has already admitted was impossible, he has now created an even more ridiculous claim of his own he must somehow refute. This should be really good. How is ‘eleph’ family when you want it to be and 1000 when you don’t Harry?



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Jay Sekulow

posted March 24, 2009 at 10:25 pm


Diane,
There have been a series of challenges to offical recognition of Christmas and Good Friday as governemnt holidays. I am happy to report that they have not been successful.
Jay



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Lyn

posted March 25, 2009 at 4:55 pm


Why must you think that atheists pray to themselves? Perhaps the reason an atheist chooses not pray to your God or any other is not because they think themselves to be all knowing, all seeing, or all powerful, but because they refuse to believe in something that they do not know to be certain. Quite the opposite of all knowing, wouldn’t you say? Should one believe just for the sake of believing? Because their parents and their peers told them they should?



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 25, 2009 at 6:12 pm


==Should one believe just for the sake of believing? ==
Not at all.
God gave us reason to have faith and believe that this faith works as advertised.



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Boris

posted March 25, 2009 at 9:50 pm


God gave us reason to have faith and believe that this faith works as advertised.
Boris says 7 reasons the above statement is incredibly wrong:
1. Studies cast doubt on abstinence only programs
2. Christianity corrupts good morals
3. The Dark Side of Faith is that too much religion is dangerous
4. Baptists divorce at a rate higher than average
5. Fundies have the top divorce rate
6. It is a documented fact that 75% of born again fundies are HABITUAL LIARS
7. Pollsters Can’t find that Christianity is transforming lives
We’re gittin’ through t’somebody out there. We don’t have-ta git through t’everybody. The angels sing when just one is saved.
Boris says: If there is a God he really needs to get some better representation here on earth. Incredible is talking to his ghost writer (himself). Incredible answer all the criticisms I made of his posts will you? Or are you having trouble coming up with defenses of your outrageous claims?



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 25, 2009 at 10:58 pm


==”God gave us reason to have faith and believe that this faith works as advertised.”
Boris says 7 reasons the above statement is incredibly wrong…==
What He Doesn’t Tell You: “According to my shallow view…”
==…:
1. Studies cast doubt on abstinence only programs==
They work, if they are followed.
==2. Christianity corrupts good morals==
“Good morals” from where?
==3. The Dark Side of Faith is that too much religion is dangerous==
That’s what Jesus told the Pharisees and the Scribes. Somebody needs to tell the Muslims, too.
==4. Baptists divorce at a rate higher than average==
Irrelevant. The Faith isn’t damaged.
==5. Fundies have the top divorce rate==
Irrelevant. The Faith isn’t damaged.
==6. It is a documented fact that 75% of born again fundies are HABITUAL LIARS==
It’s “documented” on atheist websites. It figures.
==7. Pollsters Can’t find that Christianity is transforming lives==
It’s true that atheist pollsters cannot. That’s because they want it to be so.



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Boris

posted March 26, 2009 at 12:36 am


“Good morals” from where?
Boris says: They don’t come from the Christian God or holy book that’s for sure. The Bible makes no laws against slavery but rather regulates its practice. Jesus had many opportunities to speak against slavery but never did and Paul tells slaves to be satisfied with their lot in life. We humanists had to make slavery illegal and remove the death penalty for many crimes that the Bible demands the death penalty for. This proves that our morals could not have come from any God but that we taught them to ourselves like we have language, math and everything else we can do.
Incredible are genocide and infanticide ever moral? If God commanded them and we refused would we be immoral? If Moses and Joshua had refused to commit genocide and infantide as god commanded would they have ben immoral?



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Boris

posted March 26, 2009 at 12:43 am


They work, if they are followed.
But almost no one can follow them.
“Good morals” from where?
Secular humanism
That’s what Jesus told the Pharisees and the Scribes. Somebody needs to tell the Muslims, too.
That’s what men claimed Jesus said. But there was no way to record dialog back then. It’s all hearsay, inadmissible as evidence in a court of law. Dismissed.
Irrelevant. The Faith isn’t damaged.
Faith in Jesus proved worthless.
Irrelevant. The Faith isn’t damaged.
Faith in Jesus proved worthless.
It’s “documented” on atheist websites. It figures.
Nope, from Chuck Crismier on Truth Talk Live as well as other Christian websites.
It’s true that atheist pollsters cannot. That’s because they want it to be so.
These are Christian pollsters reporting to the Christian media.



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harryoutdoors

posted March 26, 2009 at 11:34 pm


“This should be really good. How is ‘eleph’ family when you want it to be and 1000 when you don’t Harry?”
Hint: WHEN ELEPH S USED AS “UNIT”!
I’m grateful we can see the methods atheists use to confuse issues. Bait and switch…cut and run!
I know what I said about the subject of millions vs thousands of Israelites in the exodus fromEgypt.
In the study of language and root word meanings we should use COMMON SENSE instead of just using what we want to fit.
Common sense dictates we would chose UNIT as the meaning of ELEPH instead of
The root word ELEPH can be used as UNIT, FAMILIES, TROOPS OR THOUSANDS,…I mentioned this earlier as well…so fit the word UNIT as the root fits better and makes more sense than family or troop…this is the tool of linguistics to fit word roots where they make logical sense.
Atheists are losing followers because they keep insulting their intelligence demanding them to folllow immature straw man thinking.
Atheists are reduced to mocking the intelligence of readers of blogs, message boards and other postings…
At first readers are shocked into questioning thier faith but then notice the trend of lies, misquotes and leadings into blind alleyways…the BACKLASH is TREMENDOUS!
Anyway, here’s the facts again about the word study on the Hebrew Root ELEPH…believe what you want to about it but stop insulting our intellience by saying I said what I didn’t.
This argument of yours has been EXTINGUISHED a while back with a simple LINGUISTICTS study of ANCIENT HEBREW…
HINT: ELEPH does not always mean THOUSAND!
Hebrew word “Eleph” can be translated “TROOP” or “UNIT” instead of “thousand”
Myers (1965,98), following the proposal of Mendenhall (1958,52-66)
“The sons of Judah who bore shield and spear numbered six units with eight hundred men with military training.”
MERCER COMMENTARY ON THE OLD TESTAMENT
Hebrew word ELEPH is also known to mean “FAMILY” Ancient Hebrew Research Center Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine September, 2008- Issue #046
THE MIRACLES OF EXODUS by Cholin Humphreys a world-renowned Cambridge University Scientist.
Cholin sees where the Hebrew word ELEPH also means TROOP so this is why we are instructed to STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED!
Total troop strength of men over 20 was 5,550…total number of people in the Exodus = 20,000.



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Boris

posted March 27, 2009 at 2:11 am


Harry atheists don’t have any followers because atheism isn’t a religion or even a philosophy. I’m a Jew Harry and eleph means 1000. What you are doing is attempting to give the KJV a Hollywood makeover but there are just too many absurdities in the exodus story.
Amram married Jochebed his father’s sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram’s life was one hundred thirty-seven years (Ex 6:20). The name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and she bore to Amram: Aaron, Moses, and their sister Miriam (Num 26:59). The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years (Ex 12:40). Moses was eighty when he led the Exodus so he was born 350 years after the Israelites began living in Egypt. Jochebed was born to Levi in Egypt but her brother Kohath came to Egypt with Jacob (cf. Gen 46:11) and lived 133 years. This means that if Korath, Levi’s second of three sons, was two years old when he came to Egypt and lived 131 years in Egypt he died 219 years before his sister gave birth to Moses. If Jochebed was fifty years old when she bore Moses she was still 300 years younger than her brother Korath. This is quite impossible since Levi the father of Korath and Jochebed only lived 137 years so he could not have had two children almost 300 years apart in age!
It doesn’t matter where you try to plug the holes I punch in the Bible Harry because while you are fabricating nonsense to stop the bleeding I’ll just punch a few more holes in it. Would you like to explain the latest problems I just posted? This should be REALLY good!



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Boris

posted March 27, 2009 at 9:44 am


Harry actually made this claim: Ever heard of the LATIN VULGATE? The old one is a translation of the Old and New Testament into latin 157 AD..
Boris says: For the first three hundred years of Christianity there was no Bible. The Bible wasn’t even formed for over 200 years AFTER the date you claim there is a dated copy of it, and a Latin one at that! We would all like you to explain how there could possibly be a Bible in existence over TWO CENTURIES BEFORE the Bible was even formed. This is one of the most obviously false, ludicrous and indefensible claims I have ever seen and I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 27, 2009 at 10:51 pm


==..atheism isn’t a religion..==
Yes, it is.
Atheists believe something. They don’t not believe. Their belief is about God. There is is a religious belief. Atheism is a religion. Also, a federal court said so. I’m satisfied.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 27, 2009 at 10:53 pm


There is is a religious belief. —> Theirs is a religious belief.



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Boris

posted March 28, 2009 at 1:54 am


Incredible calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color. It’s like calling health a disease. Now turn back into harry so I can rip you, I mean him, for what you, I mean he wrote about the Bible that existed 200 years before any Bibles existed.
Even the word religion has such a bad connotation to it now; it’s rightly associated with evil by many people after the 9-11 attacks. Isn’t it funny how Christians claim Christianity isn’t a religion but that people who have not bought into the religious dogma and nonsense of their ridiculous superstitions are somehow religious. Of course if we were to take these hoaxers at their words and take their religious tax exemptions away because Christianity supposedly isn’t really a religion they would scream bloody murder. If the government gave religious tax breaks to say American Atheists again the Christians would scream and complain that was unfair.
Incredible, atheists don’t get together once a week in tax-exempt buildings and throw their hands in the air and scream, shout and sing about what they are trying to believe. THAT is what religion is all about, it’s what religious people do.



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Denise

posted March 28, 2009 at 8:41 am


I truely only have one thing to say to everyone involved, if you truely are seeking the truth there is one answer for everyone, weather you believe that Jesus is the Mehessia or not there is one simple test to show you the truth. Pray to Jesus, ask him to forgive you of your sins, we have all sinned there is no denieng it,so there is no harm in admitting it. Then ask Jesus for frogiveness for our sins and ask him to come into your life and reviel himself to you. Confess that he is Gods son and watch the truth he will give you, however you must do this with a sincere heart. It is very easy, all Jesus wants from us is i personal relationship. When I relized that it was that simple, I find myself in his presents all the time, I weep uncontrollably, it’s not a sad weep but a cleansing weep so that my personal relationship can go. I have been going to many hard times, but through this all God has show that he will bring my through it VICTORIOUSLY, which he has been consistant. Remember it’s not a religion, it’s a personal relationship, and it’s better than any on this Earth.



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Your Name

posted March 28, 2009 at 11:42 am


One thing is for certain we were all given freedom of religion and freedom of choice here in the United States. I believe in God and Jesus yet I am aquaintances with an athiest. We agree to disagree,yet we agree we should all love each other and lift each other up and not tear each other down. The one who is critizing and using words like stupid i.e needs to take a long hard look in the mirror because you should not be criticized for your belief anymore than the Christian believers. I know one thing for sure, when things get tough in this world, I’ll be standing next to the one that will lay his or her life down for another based on love. P.S. I’ll be standing next to you and laying my life down for you. Would you do the same? Peace to all



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Your Name

posted March 28, 2009 at 8:29 pm


Freedom,is the reason to all our struggles.Let Freedom ring and let
freedom reign.Respect to one another’s beliefs or Religion is all that
matters,no matter what,no matter where.In all circumstances,in all
endeavors and in all events,in all our commitments,there are appropriate and corresponding
values to apply so as to be considered respectful in one’s beliefs!
As long as each person is in the platform of the common good concerns,
i don’t see any descrimaination in the beliefs or religion of any
person.In conclusion,let LOVE be the theme of all our actions
that way,there were no more bloody complications that may arise.
“LOVE,LOVE,LOVE…LOVE your neighbor as yourself”that’s the ultimate
solution to prevent uprisings.To my opinion,anyway….



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harryoutdoors

posted March 29, 2009 at 1:12 am


Atheists seem to be ashamed of thier own beliefs but, that’s okay who can blame them. Some claim they have no followers because they are not a religion or even a philosophy. Perhaps they should get a new name…like “NOTHING PEOPLE” or “THE IRRESPONSIBLE” since they cannot be held responsible for any philosophy or religion or anything really.
Funny, the dictionary says atheists have a doctrine and they are ungodly and wicked.
But, how can they be any of these since they are nothing and irresponsible?
Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
1archaic : UNGODLINESS , WICKEDNESS2 a: a disbelief in the existence of deity b: the doctrine that there is no deity



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harryoutdoors

posted March 29, 2009 at 1:22 am


Strange how atheists can claim to be so intelligent as they put everyone else down as being unlearned ang ignorant and yet….they can fail to know or acknowledge discoveries of evidence of the Hebrew EXODUS that have been around for centuries…so, instead of listing numbers of miscalculated dates and deceiving misquotes why don’t atheist non-religion, non-believers, non-followed just stick with facts such as the following:
In 1761, Barthold Niebuhr, a German explorer, found a huge cemetery with tombs and a sepulcher atop an inaccessible mountain called Sarbut-el-Khaden. Inscriptions were found on the tombs and inside the sepulcher. (Voyage en Arabie, tom. i. p. 191). Niebuhr offered his doubts that the inscriptions were made by Egyptians as no carved inscriptions were ever found in Egypt; rather they were partial to painting images on plaster. He also found legible inscriptions not only on the tombs but also within a small temple carved out of rock, all found to be of the same written language as the Hebrew Exodus inscriptions. In another book, Niebuhr remarked “the wonderful preservation of the inscriptions upon this soft sandstone, exposed as they have been to the air and weather during the lapse of so many ages. On some of the stones they are quite perfect” (Niebuhr, Biblical Researches, vol. i. pp. 113-114). He found, as in the other Sinai inscriptions, that the hieroglyph-like writings were significantly different in form from Egyptian hieroglyphics, yet sharing similarities nonetheless. Also, no mention of Egyptian gods or common Egyptian symbols are to be found in the mountain-top graveyard.
In addition to all of this, Niebuhr found numerous engravings of quails on the tombstones “standing, flying and apparently, even trussed and cooked” (Rev. Charles Forster, Sinai Photographed [London: Richard Bentley, 1862], p. 62) and noted that the Bedouins refer to this graveyard as the “Turbet es Yahoud” (grave of the Jews).
When Dr. Stewart later later explored this huge graveyard, he made molds of the inscriptions there which were later translated by Rev. Charles Forster to appear in his 1962 book Sinai Photographed (p. 84):
-The apostates smitten with disease by God, by means of feathered fowls.
-Smitten by God with disease in the sandy plain, (when) exceeding the bounds of moderation.
-Sickening, smitten by God with disease; their marrows corrupted by God by means of the feathered fowls.
-The people, given over to destruction, cry aloud.
-God pours down deep sleep, messenger of death, upon the pilgrims.
-The tomb is the end of life to the sick, smitten with disease by God.”
Miriam’s Rebellion (inscriptions found)
-Miriam, Prophetess of lying lips an deceitful tongue.
-She causes the tribes to conspire against the pillar and prince of the people.
-Convoked for tumult, perverted, full of strife, the people revile the meek and generous man.
-They lead with reproaches the blessed one of God.
-The Plague of Fiery Serpents
-Bitten and destroyed by fiery, hissing serpents, the Hebrews are wounded for their crimes.
-Jehovah makes a stream flow from the stony rock.
The people, given over to destruction, cry aloud.
God pours down deep sleep,
messenger of death, upon the pilgrims.
The tomb is the end of life to the sick,
smitten with disease by God.”
Other inscriptions:
-The Hebrews Murmur Against Moses / God Provides Water Miraculously.
-Pilgrims fugitive through the sea find a place of refuge at Sidri.
-Lighting upon plain ground they proceed on their pilgrimage full of terror.
-The Hebrews pass over the sea into the wide waterless desert, famishing with hunger and thirst.
-The people clamor vociferously. The people anger Moses.
-Swerving from the right way, they thirst for water insatiably.
-The water flows, gently gushing out of the stony rock.
-Out of the rock a murmur of abundant waters.
-Out of the hard stone a springing well.
-Like the wild braying, the Hebrews swallow down enormously and greedily.
-Greedy of food like infants, they plunge into sin against Jehovah.
-The people drink, winding on their way, drinking with prone mouth,
-Jehovah gives them drink again and again.
-The people sore athirst, drink vehemently.
-They quaff the water-spring without pause, ever drinking.
-Reprobate beside the gushing well-spring.
-God Judges The People’s Gluttony.
-The people have drink to satiety. In crowds they swill.
-Flesh they strip from the bone, mangling it.
-Replete with food, they are obstreperous.
-Surfeited, they cram themselves; clamoring, they vomit.
-The people are drinking water to repletion.
-The tribes, weeping for the dead, cry aloud with downcast eyes.
-The dove mourns, devoured by grief.
-The hungry ! ??? the tempted men, brought to destruction, perish. Apostasy from the faith leads them to the tomb.
-Devouring flesh ravenously, drinking wine greedily.
-Dancing, shouting, they play.
-Congregating on all sides to ensnare them, the people voraciously devour the quails.
-Binding the bow against them, bringing them down.
-Eagerly and enormously eating the half raw flesh, the pilgrims become plague-stricken.



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harryoutdoors

posted March 29, 2009 at 1:53 am


Okay, here’s about the 5th time I’ve answered this same ridiculous question about there being a collection of Biblical manuscripts in existence 157 AD…we have the same manuscripts that were studied as Holy and Genuine by the first century believers.
Atheists twist words to make thier prey believe there was no Bible before Jerome’s Vulgate and that the Catholic Church had some plot to invent a Bible…he probably thinks Bush invented the Taliban also.
The truth is the Bible we have is the collection of MANUSCRIPTS copied from copies from the ORIGINALS.
This actually strengthens my case that atheists play mind games with the public showing they think Americans are weak-minded and won’t challenge them or check out their empty claims.
Atheists say the same things over and over, hoping no one will research these empty claims…the liberal press does this same thing and this is why we are governed by a Democratic Senate, House and President.
Here’s my replay to this same question asked by the same atheist over and over in this same forum…so here it is again for all to see!
Atheists are infamous for not researching and asking the same questions over and over…I’ve answered this enough. I don’t live on the internet and am not so insecure as to have to babble a reply to every whim of scoffing.
Hint: do a word search on VETUS LATINA or OLD LATIN BIBLE.
Notice the date 152 AD notice also this is a collection of Old Testament and New Testament manuscripts of original languages placing them even older…even to the lifetime of the writers…so there goes the scam theory that the Catholic church put Jerome up to creating the Latin Vulgate.
From Wikipedia
The phrase Vetus Latina is Latin for Old Latin, and the Vetus Latina is sometimes known as the Old Latin Bible
Another resource is from Princeton music department..just follow the links…
Vetus Latina – Resources for the Study of the Old Latin Bible … Douay-Rheims Bible Online also includes a text of the Latin Vulgate …
and yes…Hebrew has words that unlock the meaning of things…research is a wonderful thing!



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Boris

posted March 29, 2009 at 3:38 am


Sure Harry. I’ve never read so much desperate nonsense in one place. The fact that the first mention of ANY of the gospels comes from Iraneus in 190 CE shoots down all you babble. The fact that the Egyptians make no mention whatsoever of all their first born children and animals dying on one night or any mention of the Israelites ever even being in Egypt disproved the exodus events CENTURIES ago. This kind of catastrophic event could not and would not have gone completely unnoticed and unmentioned in the mountain of historical inscriptions we have from the ancient Egyptians. The Passover event simply never happened and without that Christianity goes poof. The general public knows these stories in the Bible aren’t true. Why else have an average of 72 churches a week closed their doors forever in the United States alone over the past four decades? All anyone has to do is check some of the literally hundreds of ex-Christian sites on the Internet to see why former Christians rejected their faith. The truth is that people are running from Christianity by the thousands every day and embracing deism, agnosticism, Oprahism, atheism or any other kind of ism as long as it has nothing to do with Christ.



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Boris

posted March 29, 2009 at 3:56 am


we have the same manuscripts that were studied as Holy and Genuine by the first century believers.
Response: Who is “we” harry? Where are these manuscripts and what are the names of them? All the old texts have specific names that have been given to them. I want these specific names of these texts that “we” have.
That wasn’t the fifth time you responded to my question about your mental blunder forgetting that there was no complete Old and New Testament Bibles until AFTER the books of the Bible were collected, argued over and voted on several times. There are no copies of a any Latin Bible that existed before the Bible was even voted on. You put your foot in your mouth for all of us to see and you KNOW it. This was the first time you responded to my question and if it isn’t then post the other four responses harry. We can all search all day and night harry and they won’t be on this blog and you KNOW that too. If they exist paste them. Once again you’ve told a lie we all can check you out on. Now let’s see you try to wiggle your way out of this one. This is going to be hilarious judging from your last attemts to remove your foot from your mouth. Perhaps you should just urn back into Mr. Incredible. harry has publicly hung himself with his own words too many times now.



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Boris

posted March 29, 2009 at 4:06 am


we have the same manuscripts that were studied as Holy and Genuine by the first century believers.
Response: Who is “we” harry? Where are these manuscripts and what are the names of them? All the old texts have specific names that have been attached to them. I want these specific names of these texts that “we” have. This should be really good folks!
That wasn’t the fifth time you responded to my question about your mental blunder forgetting that there was no complete Old and New Testament Bibles until AFTER the books of the Bible were collected, argued over and voted on several times. It was the first, you finally got cornered and had to acknowledge my question after ignoring it and dodging it. There are no copies of a any Latin Bible that existed before the Bible was even voted on. You put your foot in your mouth for all of us to see and you KNOW it. This was the first time you responded to my question and if it isn’t then post the other four responses harry. We can all search all day and night harry and they won’t be on this blog and you KNOW that too. If they exist paste them. Once again you’ve told a lie we all can check you out on. Now let’s see you try to wiggle your way out of this one. This is going to be hilarious judging from your last attempts to remove your foot from your mouth. Perhaps you should just turn back into Mr. Incredible. harry has publicly hung himself with his own words too many times now. You must realize no one takes you seriously on this blog even the other fundies. And now that I’ve repeatedly cornered you and forced you to prove your own words false I’m quite sure everyone else finds your posts as hilarious and ridiculous as I do.



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Boris

posted March 29, 2009 at 4:10 am


we have the same manuscripts that were studied as Holy and Genuine by the first century believers.
Response: Who is “we” harry? Where are these manuscripts and what are the names of them? All the old texts have specific names that have been attached to them. I want these specific names of these texts that “we” have. This should be really good folks! Latin texts two centuries before Latin texts existed! And only harry/Incredible knows about them.
That wasn’t the fifth time you responded to my question about your mental blunder forgetting that there was no complete Old and New Testament Bibles until AFTER the books of the Bible were collected, argued over and voted on several times. It was the first, you finally got cornered and had to acknowledge my question after ignoring it and dodging it. There are no copies of a any Latin Bible that existed before the Bible was even voted on. You put your foot in your mouth for all of us to see and you KNOW it. This was the first time you responded to my question and if it isn’t then post the other four responses harry. We can all search all day and night harry and they won’t be on this blog and you KNOW that too. If they exist paste them. Once again you’ve told a lie we all can check you out on. Now let’s see you try to wiggle your way out of this one. This is going to be hilarious judging from your last attempts to remove your foot from your mouth. Perhaps you should just turn back into Mr. Incredible. harry has publicly hung himself with his own words too many times now. You must realize no one takes you seriously on this blog even the other fundies. And now that I’ve repeatedly cornered you and forced you to prove your own words false I’m quite sure everyone else finds your posts as hilarious and ridiculous as I do.



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Boris

posted March 29, 2009 at 4:14 am


I only made one post. I’m not sure why there are three copies of it



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Your Name

posted March 30, 2009 at 1:08 am


Here is why Atheists are losing their following! Ha and also why they deny having a following or followers…they just say things long enough they hope someone will believe them from sheer exhaustion!
So, boris , you haven’t changed your tune but, you enjoy calling others liars when you know they are telling the truth…
So, after you read this latest nail in your atheist theory’s coffin please go to Fairness Doctrine by any other name by Jay Sekulo February 20th of THIS BLOG! You will find my first answer to your attempt to challenge the dates of the Biblical manuscripts…then you can apologize and recant your accusations. Do you just lie for fun or do you not remember recent things?
Okay, anyone can check these facts for themselves…this is documented history so atheists may not accept it.
The Old Latin
Itala 157
Bruce M. Metzger admits it was not the Received Text but instead Jerome used the Alexandrian Greek for the Latin Vulgate (382-400) of the Catholic Church. Jerome had enmity of the Received text, the Greek Vulgate. The Itala Vulgate (157), also sometimes referred to as the Old Latin Vulgate, was based on the Greek Vulgate or Received Text.
The Itala Vulgate 157 AD or the Old Latin Vulgate is the earliest collection of scripture translation from greek manuscripts
The Vulgate was intended to replace the Old Latin version (the “Itala”),
http://www.encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Vulgate
Greek Vulgate or Received Text
Itala Vulgate mentioned by St. Augustine in his De Doctrina Christiana
The Diatesseron was written by Tatian by weaving the 4 canonical Gospels together into a coherent and continuous accountWhile there, he composed the Diatesseron about 150 CE
http://www.ntcanon.org/Peshitta.shtml
EVEN EARLIER MANUSCRIPTS
150 AD “Peshitta”
Almost all Syriac scholars agree that the Peshitta gospels are translations of the Greek originals. Wikipedia.
userpages.bright.net/~bkrajcik/itala157.htm
Gospel of Saint John, written using the Coptic language, which was found in Upper Egypt and can be dated to the first half of the second century
http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/



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harryoutdoors

posted March 30, 2009 at 1:18 am


So, boris , you haven’t changed your tune but, you enjoy calling others liars when you know anyone can look at the truth…
So, after you read this latest nail in your atheist theory’s coffin please go to Fairness Doctrine by any other name by Jay Sekulo February 20th of THIS BLOG! You will find my first answer to your attempt to challenge the dates of the Biblical manuscripts…then you can apologize and recant your accusations.
Do you just lie for fun or do you not remember recent things?
Okay, anyone can check these facts for themselves…this is documented history so atheists may not accept it.
The Old Latin
Itala 157
Bruce M. Metzger admits it was not the Received Text but instead Jerome used the Alexandrian Greek for the Latin Vulgate (382-400) of the Catholic Church. Jerome had enmity of the Received text, the Greek Vulgate. The Itala Vulgate (157), also sometimes referred to as the Old Latin Vulgate, was based on the Greek Vulgate or Received Text.
The Itala Vulgate 157 AD or the Old Latin Vulgate is the earliest collection of scripture translation from greek manuscripts
The Vulgate was intended to replace the Old Latin version (the “Itala”),
http://www.encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Vulgate
Greek Vulgate or Received Text
Itala Vulgate mentioned by St. Augustine in his De Doctrina Christiana
The Diatesseron was written by Tatian by weaving the 4 canonical Gospels together into a coherent and continuous accountWhile there, he composed the Diatesseron about 150 CE
http://www.ntcanon.org/Peshitta.shtml
EVEN EARLIER MANUSCRIPTS
150 AD “Peshitta”
Almost all Syriac scholars agree that the Peshitta gospels are translations of the Greek originals. Wikipedia.
userpages.bright.net/~bkrajcik/itala157.htm
Gospel of Saint John, written using the Coptic language, which was found in Upper Egypt and can be dated to the first half of the second century
http://www.coptic.net/EncyclopediaCoptica/



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harryoutdoors

posted March 30, 2009 at 1:34 am


Wow! Here’s another one..imagine that! I answer the same question posted by Boris. What did you say about losing credibility?
Prayer Police in Kentucky by Jay Sekulow
Boris
March 21, 2009 3:04 AM
Harry you actually made this claim: Ever heard of the LATIN VULGATE? The old one is a translation of the Old and New Testament into latin 157 AD..
Here’s another great one …since we are reliving our history on this blog.
From: The Cross Must Go to a Place of Honor by Barry W. Lynn
Remember this one?
Boris
February 25, 2009 9:00 PM
The cross, like everything else in the Christian religion, was borrowed from other religions. Adonis had the sign of the fish long before there were any Jesus stories and was supposedly crucified on a cross to pay for the sins of the world and then rose from the dad after three days also. Horus, the Egyptian Son of God, was crucified on a cross between to evil gods. So let the Christians advertise that they stole their ideas from other religions. It goes right along with all the books that have come out over the last few years exposing this fact to the general public.
harryoutdoors
February 26, 2009 1:20 AM
http://talesof5rivers.com
Ohhhh Brother!
This is getting scary!!!
ADONIS WAS KILLED BY A BOAR!
HORUS DIED FROM A SCORPION STING!
Atheists just say whatever they want…make up things as they go…ANYTHING AS LONG AS IT SOWS DOUBT!
Atheism IS a set agenda: …to destroy the minds of young America! And they don’t care how they do it! Remember atheism has no right and wrong…good and evil…ethics is whatever at the moment.
Boris, you’ve proven you don’t believe in God…now, you’ve proven you don’t believe in truth. but, then again why should you?
This is why atheists should not be allowed to control our country’s classrooms!
Adonis died at the tusks of a wild boar, sent by either Artemis in retaliation for Aphrodite instigating the death of Hippolytus, a favorite of the huntress goddess, or Aphrodite’s paramour, Ares.[7] As Aphrodite sprinkled nectar on his body, each drop of Adonis’ blood turned into a blood-red anemone, and the river Adonis (modern Nahr Ibrahim) flowing out of Mount Lebanon in coastal Lebanon ran red, according to Lucian (chs. 6 – 9).wikipedia
The principal incident is the death of her son Horus, which took place whilst she was absent in a neighboring city, and was caused by the bite of a scorpion; in spite of all the care which Isis took in hiding her son, a scorpion managed to make its way into the presence of the boy, and it stung him until he died. http://www.touregypt.net/horus.htm



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harryoutdoors

posted March 30, 2009 at 1:40 am


Boris, please give an account of why you mislead everyone on this blog?
The one about Horus and Adonis is just outright embarrasing! I’m embarassed for honest atheists..imagine that!



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 3:30 am


I suppose Attis wasn’t born to the virgin Nana and didn’t supposedly die on a cross either. Why did the followers of Attis wear a cross around their necks to show they had been saved by the blood of Attis?
Boris says: Everyone knows there was no Bible in 157 CE harry. All your lies and babble cannot change that fact and you KNOW it. No one had a clue that there would even be a Bible in 157 CE. This is over 200 years before MEN gathered together to decide which books would even comprise the Bible.
Bible believers quickly become frustrated in debates with atheists because believers can never substantiate any of their claims. So pretty soon they just start making things up out of sheer desperation. You made a major blunder with a desperate and false claim everyone knows is physically impossible. You might as well say the Puritans already had the Constitution written when they landed in the Mayflower. Your claim is of the same ludicrous caliber. I don’t need a shovel you’re burying yourself with every word you write now trying to defend this original lie.
You have a lot of nerve calling anyone else a liar. Many of the books of the New Testament were not even “discovered” actually written until the third and fourth centuries. So, after you read this latest nail in your Christian theory’s coffin I would ask you do you just lie for fun or do you not remember recent things? None of the things you wrote are “documented history” or you would gladly have supplied the documentation instead of your claim that atheists may not accept it. Bible scholars will not accept the lie either that there were Bibles in existence over two hundred years before all the books were even finished being written let alone voted on. There is no way out harry. You’re cornered like a rat and I’ll continue to play with you like a mouse for a while longer before I humiliate you so much with your own lies you’ll have to just stay with your Mr. Incredible persona. Notice no one is jumping to your defense harry. That’s because everyone on this blog knows you got cornered with your own lies.



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 3:45 am


Here is why Atheists are losing their following!
Boris says: Can you explain why an average of 72 churches a week have closed their doors forever in America alone over the last four decades? Can you explain the percentage of atheists in this country going from 3 percent to 22 percent over the same time period? Can you tell us all why 80 per cent of Christian college students reject their faith at some time during their college years? Of course you can’t.



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 3:57 am


Harry have you not read the book Sixteen Crucified Saviors? Better go get that one before your foot becomes permanently lodged in your mouth.



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Your Name

posted March 30, 2009 at 9:54 am


Bait and switch won’t work ths time Boris.
You called me on the question of my not answering your question of there being a LATIN VULGATE 1157AD.
Did you check out the posts I gave you? Did you really?
So where’s your admittance of wrong on this?
You keep making claims that are so unfounded why should anyone believe your other claims from obscurity?
Admit your error on this and we can move forward….if not then you are just giving up again.
This is no debate …you have a history of giving up on debates…so let’s call this a friendly discussion.
Don’t want to scare you off again.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 10:03 pm


==Boris, please give an account of why you mislead everyone on this blog?==
He does THAT with every post!



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 10:25 pm


==Can you explain why an average of 72 churches a week have closed their doors forever in America alone over the last four decades?==
Give us the source of your claimed “stats”?
==Can you explain the percentage of atheists in this country going from 3 percent to 22 percent over the same time period?
Give us the source of your claimed “stats”?
==Can you tell us all why 80 per cent of Christian college students reject their faith at some time during their college years?==
Give us the source of your claimed “stats”?
==Of course you can’t.==
We’re sure that you won’t show the source of your “stats” and show us the context.
==Bible believers quickly become frustrated in debates with atheists because believers can never substantiate any of their claims. ==
We HAVE substantiated what we report, but you just won’t listen.
Notice no one is jumping to your defense harry.
==Notice no one is jumping to your defense harry.==
“No one”??? I defend him cuz he’s got it right and correct.
==What a shame the religious folks in this country actually needor want a National Day of Prayer.==
We aren’t shamed, rather we feel good about it.
== Those among us who truly worship G-d…==
Whe do you refer to God by using the abbreviation for the term taking God’s Name in vain?
==…I laugh at you Christians who need to be reminded by Presidential edict to pray.==
We don’t need to be reminded, but it’s nice to know of the common fellowship of prayer.
==Incredible calling atheism a religion is like calling baldness a hair color.
And, yet, atheism is a belief regarding God, and, so, atheism is a religion. Atheists have a belief. They don’t have no belief.
==The Bible makes no laws against slavery but rather regulates its practice.==
(Joh 8:32) And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.
(Joh 8:36) If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.
What “slavery”?



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 10:36 pm


Your Name,
You have yet to explain how when the Bible wasn’t even completed, gathered up, voted on until 406 CE there was a Latin Bible in 157 CE. Everyone knows this is physically impossible unless you’re saying that 157 CE comes AFTER 406 CE! ROFL! Oh wait, they got in magical trance and transported themselves back in time with the Bibles from 406 to 157! That’s the ticket! Of course! It’s all so Christiany to me now.
So where’s your admittance of wrong on this?
You keep making claims that are so unfounded why should anyone believe your other claims from obscurity?
Admit your error on this and we can move forward….if not then you are just giving up again.
This is no debate …you have a history of giving up on debates…so let’s call this a friendly discussion.
Don’t want to scare you off again.



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 10:42 pm


Give us the source of your claimed “stats”?
Boris says: Truth Talk Live the radio network Jay Sekulow is on in the southeast.
And, yet, atheism is a belief regarding God, and, so, atheism is a religion. Atheists have a belief. They don’t have no belief.
Boris says: Poor grammar. Atheism is NO BELIEF. Atheists do not worship anything nor is there any religious dogma. Again you can twist the language all you want but you can’t make me or any other atheist religious and a religion needs religious people. You lose. Again.



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 10:49 pm


All one has to do is turn Christian arguments on their heads and they blow up in their faces every time. We all remember Incredible claiming Christianity wasn’t a religion. Replace the word “atheism” with the word “Christianity” in his argument and watch what happens.
And, yet, Christianity is a belief regarding God, and, so, Christianity is a religion. Christians have a belief. They don’t have no belief.
BOOM! Another stupid Christian argument blows up right in his face! ROFL! How do you explain your little mental blunder there Champ?



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:00 pm


==Poor grammar. Atheism is NO BELIEF.==
It is not poor grammar because it explains exactly what I meant. Atheism is not no belief. It is a belief. You believe. You believe something. You advocate that belief. It is a belief regarding God. It is a religious belief. A federal court agrees with me, not you.
== Atheists do not worship anything…==
Except themselves.
==… nor is there any religious dogma.==
The religious dogma of the atheist is expressed by you throughout these blogs.
== Again you can twist the language all you want but you can’t make me or any other atheist religious and a religion needs religious people.==
There’s no need to twist any language in order to get the straight fact that atheism is a religion. You have a belief. You believe something. That belief concerns God. It is a religious belief. It is not no belief. A federal court agrees with me, not you.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:05 pm


==All one has to do is turn Christian arguments on their heads…==
You have yet to do so.
==… and they blow up in their faces every time.==
That has yet to happen.
== We all remember Incredible claiming Christianity wasn’t a religion.==
It isn’t. Christianity is a relationship to which God calls us.
== Replace the word “atheism” with the word “Christianity” in his argument and watch what happens.==
That’s the trick of a used-car salesman.
==And, yet, Christianity is a belief regarding God, and, so, Christianity is a religion. Christians have a belief. They don’t have no belief.==
However, religion is men-made. It is performance-driven. It is performance-based. It is based on external change.
Christianity, on the other hand, is based on internal change. It is not based on performance.
Atheism is based on performance. It concerns God. Atheism is a religion. Atheism is a belief.
==How do you explain your little mental blunder there Cham
I just explained it, twinkletoes.



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Boris

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:26 pm


This is why you are wrong Incredible. Try to concentrate. I make no claims about God, I don’t know whether there is a God or not. I don’t think there is but there might be. I don’t have any belief either way. Furthermore it doesn’t matter one way or the other to me whether there is a God or not. I can’t tell there’s one and I can’t imagine how there could be a God so I’m not going to live my life any different than the way I want to. This is because I have no beliefs about God. I’m an atheist. And once again you are wrong. Atheism is not a religion. Christianity is by your own admission. March 30, 2009 10:49 PM. Everyone can see willing you are to lie about something from just checking the previous posts.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:27 pm


==Atheism is NO BELIEF.==
Saying that you don’t believe in God, nor that God exists, is a belief.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:30 pm


Your belief is that God does not exist. You say you believe it. It is a belief. It is a religious belief. Religious belief does not exclude the belief that God does not exist. It is included.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:40 pm


==I make no claims about God…==
Atheists make claims about God. They say they believe that He does not exist. That is a belief. It is a religious belief because it concerns God.
==… I don’t know whether there is a God or not.==
You’ll have to decide before Judgment Day. On that day, it’ll be too late.
== I don’t think there is but there might be.==
1 foot in and 1 foot out. That won’t do, either.
== I don’t have any belief either way.==
That, in itself, is a belief.
== Furthermore it doesn’t matter one way or the other to me whether there is a God or not.==
Not until THAT Day.
== I can’t tell there’s one…==
You preclude yourself from perceiving it.
==… and I can’t imagine how there could be a God…==
That’s just it! You talk yourself out of it. That’s on His Ledger, too.
==… so I’m not going to live my life any different than the way I want to.==
That doesn’t impact my Salvation. It impacts yours.
== This is because I have no beliefs about God.==
Yes you do.
== I’m an atheist.==
Your belief is that there is no God. It’s a belief. A religious belief cuz it concerns God.
== And once again you are wrong.==
No, I’m not.
== Atheism is not a religion.==
Yes, it is, and a federal court agrees with me. Not you.
== Christianity is by your own admission. March 30, 2009 10:49 PM.==
Never said it.
The post at 10:49 is yours, not mine.
A religion is men-made. It is based on performance. It is external. Change is external.
Christianity is a relationship to which we are called by God. It is not based on performance because no performance can get you into Heaven. It is internal. It is internal change.
== Everyone can see willing you are to lie about something from just checking the previous posts.==
Yes, they can see that you’re telling them that what you posted is mine.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:45 pm


==I don’t know whether there is a God or not. I don’t think there is but there might be. I don’t have any belief either way…I’m an atheist.==
Looks like even YOU’RE confused. It’s about time you found that out. We knew it all along.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 30, 2009 at 11:48 pm


== Atheism is not a religion. Christianity is by your own admission. March 30, 2009 10:49 PM.==
Again, I call everybody’s attention to Boris’ claim that in a post, at 10:49, I said that Christianity is a religion. Of course, I didn’t, and, when you go back to that time, you find that the post at that time is by Boris, not me.
See, everybody, what he’s willing to do and how far he is willing to go?



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harryoutdoors

posted April 1, 2009 at 12:36 am


Sixteen Crucified Saviors Discredited
Tryggve N. D. Mettinger of Lund University in Sweden, wrote a recent (2001) scholarly critique challenging the modern consensus and attempts to “resurrect” the dying and rising theme. He nonetheless admits:
“There is now what amounts to a scholarly consensus against the appropriateness of the concept [of dying and rising gods]. Those who still think differently are looked upon as residual members of an almost extinct species….The situation during the last half of the century was thus one when it seemed fairly clear that there were no ideas of resurrection connected with Dumuzi / Tammuz, and that the ideas of a resurrection in connection with Adonis are very late. The references to a resurrection of Adonis have been dated mainly to the Christian Era….Frazer’s category was broad and all encompassing. To Frazer, Osiris, Tammuz, Adonis, and Attis were all deities of the same basic type, manifesting the yearly decay and revival of life. He explicitly identified Tammuz and Adonis. The category of dying and rising deities as propagated by Frazer can no longer be upheld.” (T.N.D. Mettinger, The Riddle of Resurrection: “Dying and Rising Gods” in the Ancient Near East [2001], page 7, 40, 41)
It should be noted that professional skeptic and historian Richard Carrier (featured in Flemming’s DVD) has disavowed Kersey Graves as a reliable source and doesn’t think much of the “parallel pagan” gods in Flemming’s list. The supposed “parallels” either post-date Christianity’s founding, or there is no good historical evidence in support of the “copycat” idea, or the “parallel” is simply mistaken. (Carrier suggests two more promising candidates — Inanna or Ishtar of the Sumerians, and Zalmoxis of the Thracians — not mentioned by Flemming).
“The World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors: Or Christianity Before Christ is unreliable, but no comprehensive critique exists. Most scholars immediately recognize many of his findings as unsupported and dismiss Graves as useless. After all, a scholar who rarely cites a source isn’t useful to have as a reference even if he is right….In general, even when the evidence is real, it often only appears many years after Christianity began, and thus might be evidence of diffusion in the other direction.” (Richard Carrier, Kersey Graves and the World’s Sixteen Crucified Saviors)
Credit to: http://www.bringyou.to/apologetics/JesusEvidenceCrucifiedSaviors.htm



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Boris

posted April 1, 2009 at 2:42 am


Latin Bible from 157 CE Discredited. Who ever heard of a Bible being in existence before half the books in the NT were even written and before the Bible was voted on in 406?



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harryoutdoors

posted April 2, 2009 at 2:25 am


You don’t understand the Bible…no wonder you are mixed up!
The Apostle Peter mentions the writings of Paul as being equal to that of other Scripture!
Do you think he should have waited for the vote on the cannon?
The Bible is a collection of manuscripts and papyrus where scripture is written upon. These manuscripts are accepted as the Word of God and given to us through chosen writers.
These manuscripts called books are alsready Scripture and accepted as the Word of God long before the cannon was voted on.
You just show your ignorance over an over Boris when you deny there is a Latin Vulgate 157 AD…
I didn’t name it the Old Latin Bible…this is what it is referred to.
Look up the word BIBLE okay????? Let’s get down to basics and maybe you will understand what the Bible is!
What does the word “Bible” mean?
The word “Bible comes from the Egyptian word for parchment, byblos. The Greek word biblios means books or scrolls. Later, it was translated into Latin, biblia, meaning “book.” The Bible is more than a single book. It is a library–ta biblia, which means “the books.” In this Bible library, as in any library, you will find a variety of books–prose, poetry, songs, prayers, history, folklore, sagas, wisdom, letters, parables, proverbs, prophecy, etc. The library of the Bible is divided into two large groups of books:
Reference: http://www.daily-word-of-life.com/intro_bible.htm
Anyway, go stew in your ignorance if you want to…the Old Latin Bible 157 AD is a fact of history.
Case Closed



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Boris

posted April 2, 2009 at 4:15 am


The earliest extant orthodox list is the Muratorian canon (c.190 or possibly later), which contains most of the books finally accepted as canonical. There was, however, dispute for some time over seven books (Hebrews, James, Second Peter, Second and Third John, Jude, and Revelation) eventually included in the canon, and over others (including the letters of Ignatius of Antioch Ignatius of Antioch)
The present New Testament canon appears for the first time in the Festal Letter of St. Athanasius (367).
There are no original manuscripts of any New Testament books. This is crucial because God supposedly performed the miracle of inspiration to get these books written. If God had wanted us to have his Word and went to all the trouble to inspire these books why didn’t he preserve the original manuscripts so we would be sure we had the exact words? If gos could perform the miracle of inspiration he could just have easily performed the miracle of preservation. Since God obviously did not perform one of these miracles there is no reason to assume he performed the miracle of inspiration either.



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N. Lindzee Lindholm

posted November 14, 2009 at 11:29 pm


Based on historical precedent and the Establishment Clause, the National Day of Prayer is Constitutional and should continue to be observed.



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