Lynn v. Sekulow

Lynn v. Sekulow


Supreme Court Gets It Partially Right

posted by Rev. Barry W. Lynn

Well, Jay, the Supreme Court got it partially right yesterday by conceding the obvious: that when a city accepts any monument from a private party and puts it up as a permanent display in a park, that represents “government speech.” It concluded that the city controls the messages it wants to convey to the public. Similarly, it recognized that there remain constraints on government speech, including the principles of equal protection and the Establishment Clause. This part of the decision was why groups like the American Humanist Association hailed it.

There was a particularly strange section of the decision, though,
that may make people wonder if the justices can tell an apple from an
orange.  The justices claim that acceptance of a monument doesn’t
necessarily mean that it embraces the same message as the donor
intends.  For example, they note that a monument in New York’s Central
Park which contains the word “Imagine” as a recognition of the late
John Lennon is susceptible to many meanings beside the one the late
singer incorporated in his words.  I’ll buy that.  However, the Ten
Commandments aren’t the lyrics of a song; they have a well-established
and singular significance as the ethical and theological cornerstone of
Judaism and Christianity.
In addition, it is
clear from the concurrence by Justices Scalia and Thomas that they
don’t believe Summum has any recourse under the “no establishment”
principle because this Ten Commandments monument is of the same type
and vintage as one which a 5-4 majority of the court upheld in Van Orden v. Perry
I am not so sure of that–and I’m quite confident that other Fraternal
Order of Eagles monuments that stand alone, not surrounded by monuments
of other kinds, will still be challenged as unconstitutional promotions
of religion.

Indeed, this case was so
obviously never a “free speech” case in the first place.  It should
have always been seen as the Establishment Clause case it was.

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Bible Scholar

posted February 26, 2009 at 2:00 pm


The J Text is accepted by scholars as the oldest version of the Ten commandments (Exodus 34:14-28). Therefore the following version of the Ten Commandments is what should be posted:
1.You shall worship no other gods. v14
2.You shall not make cast idols v17
3.You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread v18
4.All that first opens the womb is mine v19
5.Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest v21
6.You shall observe the festival of weeks. v22
7.Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the LORD God v23
8.You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven v25
9.The best of the first fruits of the ground you shall bring to the house of the LORD your God v26a
10.You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk v26b
How many Christians would want to see THIS version of the Ten Commandments posted I wonder?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 26, 2009 at 3:27 pm


==The J Text is …== yada, yada, yada…
It doesn’t make sense cuz Jesus doesn’t refer to anything but what we know now as The Ten Commandments, and, since Jesus was God on Earth, it, therefore, isn’t of God. Consistency, man, consistency! THAT’s where Scripture upon Scripture interpretation comes in.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 26, 2009 at 4:06 pm


==The J Text is …== yada, yada, yada…
Of course, YOUR rendition refers to the REAL Ten Commandments AND adds Jewish laws to them.
What you don’t understand is that the Old Testament contains stuff for Jews, for priests and for Man, and you gotta know which is which and to whom He is talking at any one time. What YOU present is a mix of that, intended to make it look as though they are “Commandments” that apply to all and with no discernment. Of course, what you are saying is just ridiculous, and THAT’s what people will find, if they just go and lookit up.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 26, 2009 at 4:16 pm


==The J Text is …== yada, yada, yada…
Was the J Text written with the Finger of God on stone tablets, as the Commandments in Exodus 20 were? I’ll answer that for you: NO. Therefore, the J Text-as-Ten Commandments idea is just plain ignorant.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 26, 2009 at 4:23 pm


==The J Text is …== yada, yada, yada…
Sooo, YOU’re saying that God needed to draft up His Ten Commandments, sorta try Them out? Then, you’re saying that He edited them into the final Ten? No, not at all, if you read the full text.
In Exoduc 34, God offers to re-do the Tablets to replace the Ones destroyed earlier. He offers to write What He wrote the first time, and He does so, and Moses takes these Tablets with the original Commandments rewritten on Them.
So, YOUR version is NOT on the Second Set of Tablets, and the stuff YOU say are the original Commandments is not on the Tablets Moses carried.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 26, 2009 at 4:37 pm


==The J Text is accepted by scholars …==
Of course, you don’t identify your so-called “scholars.” And we’re supposed to accept this appeal to “authority” without question. NAH.
We don’t know the agenda of your so-called “scholars” who, it appears can’t read simple text and think about what is written. They can’t see that, in Exodus 34, God rewrites what He wrote in Exodus 20, and Moses takes the Tablets.
The things you allege are the original Commandments are commands, but not The Ten Commandments, and they are not a draft of Them since the commands on YOUR list come after God gives Moses the second set of His original Ten of Exodus 20.



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Boris

posted February 26, 2009 at 5:09 pm


Incredible said: Was the J Text written with the Finger of God on stone tablets, as the Commandments in Exodus 20 were? I’ll answer that for you: NO. Therefore, the J Text-as-Ten Commandments idea is just plain ignorant.
Yet another version of the similar logical fallacy termed circulus in demonstrando, otherwise known as circular reasoning. Where does it say that God wrote the tablets with his finger? Why is the very book we get the commandments from! Around in circles we go again. Here’s a painfully common example: “The Bible is the word of God. Since God wrote the Bible, we know that it contains only truthful accounts. Since the truthful accounts are inspired by God, we know that the Bible is God’s word.” In other words, the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so. If you can’t spot the enormous gaping hole in this argument, you’re a Christian or a Muslim. The Qur’an says Muhammad is Allah’s prophet, but that doesn’t make it a fact. There must be good evidence to support these claims
Can any of you people who have taken philosophy imagine what a philosophy professor would do to Mr. Incredible and all his logical fallacies?



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Gwyddion9

posted February 26, 2009 at 5:10 pm


Yes,the J text is there and before the 10 commandments that most people like to quote Incredible. There are also multiple versions of it and they’re not all the same, as you can see.



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Your Name

posted February 26, 2009 at 9:35 pm


Children shall not be murdered in the United States of America. Is not Embryonic Stem Cell murder? Did we somehow lose track to what a child or human being is? How could our government and people for that matter forget that children are children and not science projects? Why is our nation and policy makers so far away from the truth of the matter to what is important in life? Is it not life itself? How do people rationalize the idea that children are not children in the first stages of life of a human being? We all know the answer to that question don’t we, they want the legalization of murdering their children with phrases and clauses attached to it so it does not refer to murder as murder. Did not Hitler do the same thing with human beings? Treat human beings like science projects in a controlled setting trying to cure a disease? Or was it disgiesed in a science project to not look as if they were murdering people? Cara Floyd



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 8:20 am


==Yes,the J text is there and before the 10 commandments…==
No, It isn’t.
The original Ten came in Exodus 20. then, in Exodus 34, a copy of the original was given to Moses and he took the Tablets. THEN, God issued commands, but not Commandments. The only Commandments were on those Tablets, and the second set copied the first set in Exodus 20.
==There are also multiple versions of it and they’re not all the same, as you can see.==
The second set of the Ten that God gave Moses on Tablets is identical to the first, and the J-text is not on the Tablets.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 8:39 am


==Where does it say that God wrote the tablets with his finger?==
(Exo 31:18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
(Deu 9:10) And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
== Why is [sic] the very book we get the commandments [sic] from!==
Yes, the Word of God got the exclusive story! Great journalism!
== Around in circles we go again.==
That’s your head spinning.
==Here’s a painfully common example…==
We knopw that it’s painful for you.
==…: “The Bible is the word [sic] of God. Since God wrote the Bible, we know that it [sic] contains only truthful accounts. Since the truthful accounts are inspired by God, we know that the Bible is God’s word.”==
The Word is Christ, and He says that He tells the Truth. I believe Him, not those who are on a mission to defeat Him.
==In other words, the Bible is the word [sic] of God because the Bible says so.==
No. He IS the Word of God.
== If you can’t spot the enormous gaping hole in this argument…==
One that YOU make up.
==… you’re a Christian or a Muslim.==
Open hostility toward Christians, and THAT makes you untrustworthy and unqualified to instruct Christians.
==The Qur’an says Muhammad is Allah’s prophet, but that doesn’t make it a fact.==
It depends.
Those who were right there say that Jesus was God on Earth cuz they say they saw evidence of it.
Muhammad didn’t claim to come from Heaven, from God, and he didn’t claim to be the Savior, only a messenger of a god that requires performance to get to that god’s heaven.
==There must be good evidence to support these claims…==
There is, and we’ve given it to you. You’ve rejected it outta hand. That’s not good Science.
==Can any of you people who have taken philosophy imagine what a philosophy professor would do to Mr. Incredible and all his logical fallacies?==
You mean that human “reasoning” can defeat God? Of course, THAT’s your argument.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 9:15 am


==Children shall not be murdered in the United States of America.==
Not only that, but children, from the point of conception, should not pay the price for the “crimes” of the parents.
== Did we somehow lose track to what a child or human being is?==
As a country, yes, we did.
In Arizona, a pregnant college student delivers her baby in the dorm. She puts the baby in a bag, believe it or not.
Officials find a bag, open it up and find a baby squirming for breath.
The stupid woman is arrested and faces murder charges.
This is an example of how cheap life is to these people.
== How could our government and people for that matter forget that children are children and not science projects?==
Cuz the pro-choice=pro-abortion=wrong-choice fanatics have gotten too influential people to mangle the values of the country through law.
== Why is our nation and policy makers so far away from the truth of the matter to what is important in life?==
The pro-choice=pro-abortion=wrong-choice fanatics led them that way. And, ignorantly, they went gleefully.
==How do people rationalize the idea that children are not children in the first stages of life of a human being?==
Well, they do what Hitler did: change the language [Hitler’s people didn’t kill; they cleansed]. The pro-choice=pro-abortion=wrong-choice extremists make the unborn child into a thing, and, after all, things don’t have Rights.
==…they want the legalization of murdering their children with phrases and clauses attached to it so it does not refer to murder as murder.==
That’s the MO.
Keep up the good work, Cara! You’re going in the right and correct direction!



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 9:17 am


have gotten too —> have gotten to



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 10:02 am


Why do you prefer to clutter up this blog’s comment thread with childish insults, rather than attend, intelligently, to the subject being discussed?



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Boris

posted February 27, 2009 at 11:20 am


Incredible,
You said: The original Ten came in Exodus 20. then, in Exodus 34, a copy of the original was given to Moses and he took the Tablets. THEN, God issued commands, but not Commandments. The only Commandments were on those Tablets, and the second set copied the first set in Exodus 20.
The second set of the Ten that God gave Moses on Tablets is identical to the first, and the J-text is not on the Tablets.
(Exo 31:18) And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God.
(Deu 9:10) And the LORD delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the LORD spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.
Boris says: While these two versions are similar they have some important differences not the least of which is how the Bible says they were received. In Exodus Moses brought the tablets to Israel during the first few months of the Exodus (Exod 19:10-25). In Deuteronomy Moses gave the Israelites the tablets forty years later in the vicinity of Mt. Horeb (Deut 4:44-48). This presents an insurmountable problem to believers that no amount of apologetic babble can reconcile. Where and when exactly did Moses receive these commandments, after the wondering or before, at Sinai or Horeb? One of these stories proves the other one is not true and that a good enough reason to reject both of them as archaic myths. Let’s watch Mr. Incredible try to wiggle his way out of this contradiction. I’m always amazed at how Bible thumpers seem to know less about the Bible then anyone else.
You said: Yes, the Word of God got the exclusive story! Great journalism!
Boris says: How come this “journalism” is not written like any other journalism or historical document but only and always in the style of ancient fiction? No, don’t tell me – God wanted to fool all the smart people so he can surround himself with unthinking spineless yes-men in heaven.
You said: That’s your head spinning.
Boris says: Ad hominem attacks demonstrate the weakness of Incredible’s case and his lack of a sense of humor or even fair play.
You said: The Word is Christ, and He says that He tells the Truth. I believe Him, not those who are on a mission to defeat Him.
Boris says: An extremely common logical fallacy often serving as the sole foundation of a Christian argument is petitio principii, more widely known as begging the question. This mistake occurs when the premise used to support a conclusion is as equally questionable as the conclusion itself. For example, “The Bible is the word of God. Because it tells us that accepting Jesus is the only way to enter Heaven, there’s no other way to avoid Hell other than accepting Jesus.” The speaker predicates his conclusion upon the premise of his argument being true. In other words, he bases the conclusion of non-Christians going to Hell on the assumption that the Bible is the word of God. However, the premise is definitely a questionable one. A conclusion based solely on a questionable premise must, of course, be questionable as well. It would then be the speaker’s responsibility to provide proof for his premise or withdraw his conclusion.
You said: No. He IS the Word of God.
Boris says: Because the Bible says so. Right? Around and around and around we go.
You said: One that YOU make up.
Boris says: Just because you can’t see all your logical fallacies and the holes in your absurd arguments doesn’t mean they aren’t there. You expect me to believe in God when I can’t see it.
You said: Open hostility toward Christians, and THAT makes you untrustworthy and unqualified to instruct Christians.
Boris says: Love the Christian hate the Christianity – that’s how we roll. I have instructed many Christians on how to learn Koine Greek so they could see for themselves that the Bible is fiction.
You said: Those who were right there say that Jesus was God on Earth cuz they say they saw evidence of it.
Boris says: Who does the Bible say saw Jesus? Why people mentioned in the Bible and nowhere else saw Jesus. Around in a circle we go again.
You said: Muhammad didn’t claim to come from Heaven, from God, and he didn’t claim to be the Savior, only a messenger of a god that requires performance to get to that god’s heaven.
Boris says: I find this kind of circular reasoning to be a particularly aggravating method of argumentation, especially when a Christian denies those with different religions the luxury to make the same bald assertions.
You said: There is, and we’ve given it to you. You’ve rejected it outta hand. That’s not good Science.
Boris says: You’ve given arguments NOT evidence. Arguments are NOT evidence – they’re a Christian smokescreen made to hide the fact that you have no evidence
You said: You mean that human “reasoning” can defeat God? Of course, THAT’s your argument.
Boris says: God’s are fragile things. They can be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. POOF. See what I mean?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 2:27 pm


==In Exodus Moses brought the tablets to Israel during the first few months of the Exodus (Exod 19:10-25). In Deuteronomy Moses gave the Israelites the tablets forty years later in the vicinity of Mt. Horeb (Deut 4:44-48). ==
Yes, with the Finger of God, the first Tablets with The Ten Commandments, as we know it, were written. Then, the first Tablets were destroyed. God gave Moses a second set of The Ten Commandments, as they were written on the original Tablets, as we know them. The J-Text is nowhere to be seen on any tablets. The J-Text is a mix of commands that include laws for the Jews and Jewish priests.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 2:36 pm


==This presents an insurmountable problem to believers that no amount of apologetic babble can reconcile.==
Especially to people like you who reject anything that doesn’t agree with your agenda to try to defeat God.
== Where and when exactly did Moses receive these commandments, after the wondering [sic] or before, at Sinai or Horeb?==
It doesn’t matter.
== One of these stories proves the other one is not true…==
Not at all.
==…and that a good enough reason to reject both of them as archaic myths.==
Nobody is stopping you.
== Let’s watch Mr. Incredible try to wiggle his way out of this contradiction.==
There is no contradiction in the objective. You’ve talked yourself into a contradiction.
==I’m always amazed at how Bible thumpers seem to know less about the Bible then anyone else. ==
I’m always amazed at how those who are on a mission to try to defeat God and His Word try to make everybody think that, reading the Word of God as they do a newspaper, or a textbook, they know more about the Word of God than anyone else.
==How come this “journalism” is not written like any other journalism or historical document but only and always in the style of ancient fiction?==
The Word of God is written in the journalistic style of the time, as translated into English.
== No, don’t tell me – God wanted to fool all the smart people so he can surround himself with unthinking spineless yes-men in heaven.==
Of course, you’re too infested with demonic suggestions to defeat the Word of God, and, so, you can’t handle any of His Truth.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 2:39 pm


==This presents an insurmountable problem to believers that no amount of apologetic babble can reconcile.==
Especially to people like you who reject anything that doesn’t agree with your agenda to try to defeat God.
== Where and when exactly did Moses receive these commandments, after the wondering [sic] or before, at Sinai or Horeb?==
It doesn’t matter.
== One of these stories proves the other one is not true…==
Not at all.
==…and that a good enough reason to reject both of them as archaic myths.==
Nobody is stopping you.
== Let’s watch Mr. Incredible try to wiggle his way out of this contradiction.==
There is no contradiction in the objective. You’ve talked yourself into a contradiction.
==I’m always amazed at how Bible thumpers seem to know less about the Bible then anyone else. ==
I’m always amazed at how those who are on a mission to try to defeat God and His Word try to make everybody think that, reading the Word of God as they do a newspaper, or a textbook, they know more about the Word of God than anyone else.
==How come this “journalism” is not written like any other journalism or historical document but only and always in the style of ancient fiction?==
The Word of God is written in the journalistic style of the time, as translated into English.
== No, don’t tell me – God wanted to fool all the smart people so he can surround himself with unthinking spineless yes-men in heaven.==
Of course, you’re too infested with demonic suggestions to defeat the Word of God, and, so, you can’t handle any of His Truth.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 27, 2009 at 3:02 pm


==You said: That’s your head spinning.
Boris says: Ad hominem attacks demonstrate the weakness of Incredible’s case and his lack of a sense of humor or even fair play.==
It is not an ad hominem attack to say that your head is spinning is what leads you to say you believe that my argument is an example of “circular reasoning.”
==You said: The Word is Christ, and He says that He tells the Truth. I believe Him, not those who are on a mission to defeat Him.
Boris says: An extremely common logical fallacy often serving as the sole foundation of a Christian argument is petitio principii, more widely known as begging the question.==
We’re very aware of your style to try to couch the language of your mission to try to defeat the Word of God by appearing to be academic and scholarly. In other words, battleships of words, rowboats of thoughts.
=== This mistake occurs when the premise used to support a conclusion is as equally questionable as the conclusion itself.==
Blah blah blah.
== For example, “The Bible is the word of God. Because it tells us that accepting Jesus is the only way to enter Heaven, there’s no other way to avoid Hell other than accepting Jesus.” The speaker predicates his conclusion upon the premise of his argument being true.==
What God says is true. That’s true.
== In other words, he bases the conclusion of non-Christians going to Hell on the assumption that the Bible is the word of God.==
After all, God says so.
== However, the premise is definitely a questionable one.==
To those who are trying to defeat God and His Word, yes.
== A conclusion based solely on a questionable premise must, of course, be questionable as well.==
The mission of those who are trying to defeat God and His Word is never done, is it.
== It would then be the speaker’s responsibility to provide proof for his premise or withdraw his conclusion.==
God is His own Proof.
==You said: No. He IS the Word of God.
Boris says: Because the Bible says so. Right? Around and around and around we go.==
You’re just dizzy from your head spinning.
==You said: One that YOU make up.
Boris says: Just because you can’t see all your logical fallacies and the holes in your absurd arguments doesn’t mean they aren’t there. You expect me to believe in God when I can’t see it.==
Gee, you can see “love,” either. You can’t see “beauty,” either. You can see gravity, either.
==You said: Open hostility toward Christians, and THAT makes you untrustworthy and unqualified to instruct Christians.
==Boris says: I have instructed many Christians on how to learn Koine Greek so they could see for themselves that the Bible is fiction.==
Translation: “I have instructed many Christians on how I try to defeat God and His Word.”
==You said: Those who were right there say that Jesus was God on Earth cuz they say they saw evidence of it.
Boris says: Who does the Bible say saw Jesus?==
Go and read Him for yourself.
== Why people mentioned in the Bible and nowhere else saw Jesus.==
THAT’S where the exclusive story appears.
== Around in a circle we go again.==
That’s just your head spinning.
==You said: Muhammad didn’t claim to come from Heaven, from God, and he didn’t claim to be the Savior, only a messenger of a god that requires performance to get to that god’s heaven.
Boris says: I find this kind of circular reasoning…==
What appears to be, to you, “circular reasoning,” is actually your head spinning.
==… to be a particularly aggravating method of argumentation…==
So what?
==… especially when a Christian denies those with different religions the luxury to make the same bald assertions.==
I deny nothing. I merely accept what Jesus said, that He is the ONLY Way to the Father.
==You said: There is, and we’ve given it to you. You’ve rejected it outta hand. That’s not good Science.
Boris says: You’ve given arguments NOT evidence.==
I’ve given evidence that you have rejected and denied as evidence. That doesn’t mean that what I’ve written is not evidence. It means only that you’ve rejected it.
== Arguments are NOT evidence…==
Then stop doing it.
==… – they’re a Christian smokescreen made to hide the fact that you have no evidence==
We present evidence that you reject. That doesn’t mean that what we write is not evidence. That you reject evidence is not very scientific, is it.
==You said: You mean that human “reasoning” can defeat God? Of course, THAT’s your argument.
Boris says: God’s are fragile things. They can be killed by a whiff of science or a dose of common sense. POOF. See what I mean?==
That happens with gods. Not with God.



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Boris

posted February 27, 2009 at 4:04 pm


Incredible said: Of course, you’re too infested with demonic suggestions to defeat the Word of God, and, so, you can’t handle any of His Truth.
Boris says When a Christian speaker attacks the credibility of his opponent by using factors unrelated to the credibility of the opponent’s position. An example of such an argumentum ad hominem would be this: “The man who stands before you is an atheist. He claims Christianity doesn’t have a good moral code, but I happen to know that he’s verbally abusive toward his peers.” Such an unwarranted attack against the opponent has no value toward supporting the issue of Christianity’s moral code. While the hostility doesn’t have any logical credibility as a valid argument, it speaks volumes about the credibility of the individual resorting to its usage.
== Where and when exactly did Moses receive these commandments, after the wondering [sic] or before, at Sinai or Horeb?==
Incredible incredibly said: It doesn’t matter.
Boris says: This is what is known as cognitive dissonance. The believer has been absolutely convinced by OTHER believers that there cannot be any discrepancies, errors or lies in the Bible. So the believer can look right at these obvious major blunders in the Bible and simply wish-think them away. Then they become angry and frustrated when others can’t twist their brains into a useless 2000 year old pretzel and do the same.



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harryoutdoors

posted February 27, 2009 at 4:09 pm


POOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Where’s Boris’s Argument?
Mt HOREB and Mt SINAI are both the SAME MOUNTAIN!!!!
Mount Sinai (Arabic: ??? ????? , Hebrew: ?? ????), also known as Mount Horeb, Mount Musa, Gebel Musa or Jabal Musa (“Moses’ Mountain”) by the Bedouin, is the name of a mountain in the Sinai Peninsula. It is the traditional location of the Biblical Mount Sinai. wikipedia
Here’s a verse for you:
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
For those who are interested in the truth we see how in Deuteronomy 4 Moses is reminding the Israelites of WHEN GOD gave the ten commandments…not a separate time when He gave more ten commandments or at a different time and place….
SAME TIME SAME PLACE
HOREB is SINAI
DEUTERONOMY RECOUNTS AND REMINDS
EXODUS IS THE TIME AND THE PLACE
Deuteronomy 4 (King James Version)
Deuteronomy 4 http://www.biblegateway.com
10Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.
11And ye came near and stood under the mountain; and the mountain burned with fire unto the midst of heaven, with darkness, clouds, and thick darkness.
12And the LORD spake unto you out of the midst of the fire: ye heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude; only ye heard a voice.
13And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone.



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Boris

posted February 27, 2009 at 4:21 pm


You must be kidding. Even if I grant you this apologetic cover-up invented by the lying church fathers the fact remains that one story is at the beginning of the 40 years and the other at the end. Game over dude. ROFL!



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Mary-Lee

posted February 27, 2009 at 5:36 pm


Boris, it’s useless. Incredible has his mind made up and set in stone.
I’m only sorry that no one has bothered to speak to the topic at hand, i.e. the Supreme Court decision.
The decision was not an Establishment Clause decision, but it will be used as if it were by fundies, and there will be challenges based on that misunderstanding.



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harryoutdoors

posted February 27, 2009 at 6:57 pm


You’re not granting me anything dude!
Basic English instructs us of the difference between PAST AND PRESENT TENSE! Basic reading skills are all you need to understand the discourse in Dueteronomy as a LOOKING BACK to the past and REMINDING the Israelites of the ACTUAL OCCURANCE.
The church fathers had nothing to do with the writing of the Old Testament…B.C get it?
I’m not so sure you ever got in the game…dude



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Boris

posted February 27, 2009 at 9:50 pm


Mary Lee You said: Boris, it’s useless. Incredible has his mind made up and set in stone.
Boris says: It’s fun watching him chase his tail though. His rants have probably convinced many less brainwashed Christians to reconsider their beliefs. I know I wouldn’t want to be part of a religion that had blowhards like him representing it. The Christian God really needs some better representation here on Earth wouldn’t you say?
Harry,
You said: Basic English instructs us of the difference between PAST AND PRESENT TENSE! Basic reading skills are all you need to understand the discourse in Dueteronomy as a LOOKING BACK to the past and REMINDING the Israelites of the ACTUAL OCCURANCE.
Boris says: No it doesn’t. It clearly says Moses was given the text twice – 40 years apart. We can all read.
You said: The church fathers had nothing to do with the writing of the Old Testament…B.C get it?
Boris says: The church fathers invented the argument that Horeb and Sinai were the same place when confronted with this obvious blunder by their Pagan and most importantly Jewish critics. But it’s a moot point unless you can tell us all where exactly this Mt. Sinai is. Poof there goes your whole argument. Mt. Sinai exists where Mount Olympus exists: in the Ancient Near Eastern world of mythology. It’s a mythical mountain. The Jewish people did not even exist until the 8th century BC and these stories pre-date them by at least 600 years.
You said: I’m not so sure you ever got in the game…dude
Boris says: Game? I never let other PEOPLE convince me that I would burn in hell if I didn’t believe every word of the Bible. I avoided that game. You did let OTHER PEOPLE convince you the Bible is true by indoctrinating you with THEIR fear-induced superstitions. Then you would like me to believe you can still make an objective decision about the Bible and your religion. Spare me. Someone who as frightened as you are, is not going to question ANYTHING about his religion’s absurd dogmatic superstitions.



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Boris

posted February 27, 2009 at 10:02 pm


People who actually believe these stories about the Exodus simply haven’t read them carefully. Bible thumpers never read their Bibles as I’ve already clearly illustrated. They’re too busy trying desperately to believe them and noticing absurdities won’t help THAT project.
For example: Amram married Jochebed his father’s sister and she bore him Aaron and Moses, and the length of Amram’s life was one hundred thirty-seven years (Ex 6:20). The name of Amram’s wife was Jochebed daughter of Levi, who was born to Levi in Egypt; and she bore to Amram: Aaron, Moses, and their sister Miriam (Num 26:59). The time that the Israelites had lived in Egypt was four hundred thirty years (Ex 12:40). Moses was eighty when he led the Exodus so he was born 350 years after the Israelites began living in Egypt. Jochebed was born to Levi in Egypt but her brother Kohath came to Egypt with Jacob (cf. Gen 46:11) and lived 133 years. This means that if Korath, Levi’s second of three sons, was two years old when he came to Egypt and lived 131 years in Egypt he died 219 years before his sister gave birth to Moses. If Jochebed was fifty years old when she bore Moses she was still 300 years younger than her brother Korath. This is quite impossible since Levi the father of Korath and Jochebed only lived 137 years so he could not have had two children almost 300 years apart in age! I challenge anyone to reconcile this massive problem.



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Your Name

posted February 28, 2009 at 1:05 am


First of all Boris, you said “GAME OVER” then you criticize my referring to GAME…but then you must forget what you say alot…I don’t blame you.
I can’t help it if you can’t read english or believe history. You should hve been home schooled.
This last BABBLE of dates and some convoluted theory of yours about the age of an Old Testament Israelite proving the Bible is unreliable is more than ridiculous judging from your track record of FALSE CLAIMS and EMPTY ACCUSATIONS! BAIT AND SWITCH BAIT AND SWITCH! Jump from one false claim to the next hoping no one will notice your blunders.
WE ALL NOTICE!
Boris claims Adonis and Horus both died on a cross! PROVEN WRONG! Adonis killed by wild boar…Horus killed by scorpion.
Borisclaims NO Jews believe in creation! PROVEN WRONG! Rabbi Dr. Dovid Gottlieb, Rabbi Avi Shafran, Moshe Kaplan, MD, Rabbi Lipan
Boris claims NO manuscript evidence of the New Testament before 200 A.D! PROVEN WRONG! Itala Vulgate 157 and other manuscript evidence.
Why in the world would you believe anyone would rely on your calculations of anything in the Bible of which you have repeatedly shown you CONTEMPT AND COMPLETE IGNORANCE!
Go sleep it off!



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harryoutdoors

posted February 28, 2009 at 1:48 am


We know that the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt did not begin until more than two hundred and fifty years had passed after the establishment of the covenant with Abraham in 1916 BC. Scripture informs us that it was after the death of Joseph (around 1654 BC) that persecution set in, which led to their enslavement. Thus their affliction could not have lasted four hundred years.
How then are we to explain the wording of Genesis 15:13? The answer lies in understanding that the phrase “and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them” is a parenthetical thought. The four hundred years applies only to the sojourning in a strange land. Remove the parenthetical thought and the verse reads “And He said unto Abram, ‘Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs…four hundred years.”
In the Companion Bible, Bullinger has inserted parentheses in Genesis 15:13 to separate the main thought from the parenthetical thought. He notes the parenthetical thought as a figure of speech known as Epitrechen and refers the reader to Appendix 6, which defines this term:
Epitrechen A sentence not complete in itself, thrown in as an explanatory remark. A form of Parenthesis.
The Scriptural chronology enables us to estimate the approximate length of the servitude of the children of Israel. The Scriptures record that the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt did not begin until sometime after the death of Joseph (Ex. 1:6-11). Joseph died in the mid-1600’s BC, which was less than 200 years before the Exodus. Allowing twenty or thirty years (one generation) for the memory of Joseph to fade, the period of servit ude to the Egyptians was not more than 150 years.
http://www.cbcg.org/430_Years_of_Galatians_3-17. htm



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 1:49 am


==Boris, it’s useless. Incredible has his mind made up and set in stone. ==
Mary-Lee, it’s useless. Boris has made his mind up and set in stone.
==I’m only sorry that no one has bothered to speak to the topic at hand, i.e. the Supreme Court decision.==
You can blame Boris for that. He is obsessed with trying to defeat the Word of God and God, Himself. I’ve tried to get the discussion back to the topic, but no. So…
==The decision was not an Establishment Clause decision…==
So, in a way, it was/is. It’s about Freedom of Speech, certainly, but it is also about “religious” speech, and SCOTUS approves of it on public property, if the jurisdictional entity allows it.



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Triumph the Dog

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:14 am


Harry and Incredible I just proved the Exodus event is impossible and you’ve been unable to refute me. You have not addressed this problem at all and it’s now only going to get much worse for you.
WE ALL NOTICE!
Now to further debunk the exodus nonsense:
Levi had three sons, eight grandsons, and fifteen great grandsons, two of whom were Moses and Aaron. Moses had two sons and Aaron had four sons and a grandson at the time of the Exodus. This means that Levi’s other thirteen great grandsons fathered an amazing total of much more than 22,978 of their own sons and grandsons (probably at least 10,000 more considering the mortality rates in ancient times) by the time of the enrollment of the clans (Num 26:62) shortly after the Exodus. At that time there were 23, 000 male descendants of Levi that were over one month old! The great grandsons of the other eleven tribes of Israel were able to perform this same miracle. How did they accomplish this? It wasn’t until after the Exodus that Moses said to them…”Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves (Num 31:15-18). Suffice it to say that unlike Moses and Aaron who had only one wife each, the other great grandsons must have had hundreds and hundreds of wives who were pregnant nearly all of the time before the Exodus. In that case who had time to work as a slave and when exactly did they have the time or energy to work?
Anyone want to reconcile these problems?



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Triumph the Dog

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:37 am


You said: The Scriptural chronology enables us to estimate the approximate length of the servitude of the children of Israel. The Scriptures record that the affliction of the children of Israel in Egypt did not begin until sometime after the death of Joseph (Ex. 1:6-11). Joseph died in the mid-1600’s BC, which was less than 200 years before the Exodus. Allowing twenty or thirty years (one generation) for the memory of Joseph to fade, the period of servit ude to the Egyptians was not more than 150 years.
Boris says: Then explain this:
The seventy people born to Jacob just two hundred fifteen years before the exodus multiplied to a total of about six hundred thousand grown male descendants besides the women and children that were born and were still alive in only five generations to just twelve brothers. In other words Moses’ great-grandfather Levi and each of his brothers had an average of about fifty thousand living grandsons, great and great-great-grandsons alive at the time of the Exodus, not to mention their other relatives that combined for a total of well over two million people.
The enrollment of the clans in the Book of Numbers deals with smaller yet still very inflated figures: From thirty years old up to fifty years old, everyone who qualified for work relating to the tent of meeting; and their enrollment by clans was two thousand seven hundred fifty. This was the enrollment of the clans of the Kohathites (Num 4:35-37). From the genealogy that the Bible gives us about the descendants of Levi and specifically the clan of the Kohathites, it is obvious that there is something very wrong with the number of descendants of Kohath between the ages of thirty and fifty given in Numbers. Kohath had four sons, thirteen grandsons, and 2733 great-grandsons that served at the tent of meeting. Two of Korath’s grandsons, Moses and Aaron, had only two sons each that served at the tent of meeting. This means that the other eleven grandsons of Korath fathered at least 2729 sons that were between the ages of thirty and fifty at the time of the enrollment of the clans. Moses and Aaron themselves had grandsons but they would not have been old enough to serve at the tent of meeting and we can assume the same to be true of any other great-grandsons of Kohath.
Because not all of those people could be descended from the same twelve brothers, either the number of Israelites that left Egypt all in one day is inflated, or the Israelites were never in Egypt.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:38 am


==Anyone want to reconcile these problems? ==
No need. These details are irrelevant to the spiritual journey, and they are “problems” only in the mind of those who wanna try to defeat God and His Word. Of course, they can never succeed.
So, are we gonna swing this blog back to the subject, or not?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:51 am


Anywho…
The SCOTUS case the other day, certainly, is about Freedom of Speech, but in that context is the Freedom of so-called “religious” Speech cuz the Court says that the jurisdictional authority may accept, or deny, a “religious” expression on public property over which it has authority.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:54 am


Staying on the subject of this blog, how is so-called “religious” expression different from the general Freedom of Speech?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:57 am


If Freedom of Expression is allowed on public property, and so-called “religious” expression is part of the broader Freedom of Expression/Speech, how does the SCOTUS decision not include so-called “religious” expression?



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 3:59 am


Incredible said: ==Anyone want to reconcile these problems? ==
No need. These details are irrelevant to the spiritual journey, and they are “problems” only in the mind of those who wanna try to defeat God and His Word. Of course, they can never succeed.
Boris says: In other words it doesn’t matter if the stories in the Bible make any sense or even if they are true to someone who has swallowed the dogma that they MUST be believed at all costs to avoid the torture of eternal damnation.
Then he said: So, are we gonna swing this blog back to the subject, or not? Before Boris makes a complete mockery of the Bible and proves it to be a bunch of absurd nonsense.
Incredible you don’t HAVE the word of any God. You’ve got the words of ancient superstitious animal sacrificing primitives. That the Bible is the word of God is the moist indefensible lie ever told on this planet. It’s nothing but a MAN -MADE rumor about a MAN-MADE book. You bought it. I didn’t.



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 4:02 am


If SCOTUS allows a religious expression, like The Ten Commandments, and says that this is Freedom of Speech, and that the jurisdictional authority of the public property may allow it, how is the ruling limited only to Freedom of Speech but not the Freedom of religious speech?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 4:16 am


==…this case was so obviously never a “free speech” case in the first place.==
If I understand it correctly, the Court disagrees.
== It should have always been seen as the Establishment Clause case it was.==
“Religious” speech is embedded in the broader Free Speech issue. You can’t have Free Speech unless “religious” speech is included.
If the Court ruled that the authority that has jurisdiction over the public land may allow The Ten Commandments, and that allowing that display doesn’t violate the First Amendment, that it doesn’t violate the Establishment Clause.
So, how can you allow Free Speech and deny the first Freedom — that is, “religious” speech?



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Mr. Incredible

posted February 28, 2009 at 4:26 am


==…Unconstitutional promotions of religion.==
Re: this issue, what is “promotion”? Is mere talk “promotion”? Or, where government is concerned, must be more than that?
The Constitution says that “Congress shall make no law…”
So, it would have to be a law that promotes.
When the jurisdiction that has control over the public land accepts, or denies, a thing with “religious” speech on it, is it making law?



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 4:54 am


1. You shall have no other gods other than me.
Sorry but our founders PURPOSELY BROKE this commandment to let people have as many and whatever gods as they want or no God at all. “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”- Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat. Christian historical revisionists who are constantly foisting their hoax that our founders were Christians can hardly explain Christians purposely breaking the first commandment. This and their own words prove that our founders were deists who believed in Nature’s god. Notice when they do refer to God he gets second billing to Nature. That’s hardly the Christian God now is it? I love debunking Christian apologetic lies.



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Your Name

posted February 28, 2009 at 1:50 pm


ROFL!



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Your Name

posted February 28, 2009 at 6:36 pm


Claiming to be wise…they became as fools!
I sometimes wonder if atheists just copy and paste from some CHAT ROOM or ATHEIST MESSAGE BOARD without thinking for themselves before they post these ignorant statements and then claim …“Now to further debunk the exodus nonsense:”
At least THINK FOR YOURSELF BEFORE YOU SWALLOW THESE CAMELS! You claim to be the “intellectuals” so START ACTING LIKE INTELLECTUALS!
This argument of yours has been EXTINGUISHED a while back with a simple LINGUISTICTS study of ANCIENT HEBREW…
HINT: ELEPH does not always mean THOUSAND!
Hebrew word “Eleph” can be translated “TROOP” or “UNIT” instead of “thousand”
Myers (1965,98), following the proposal of Mendenhall (1958,52-66)
“The sons of Judah who bore shield and spear numbered six units with eight hundred men with military training.”
MERCER COMMENTARY ON THE OLD TESTAMENT
Hebrew word ELEPH is also known to mean “FAMILY” Ancient Hebrew Research Center Biblical Hebrew E-Magazine September, 2008- Issue #046
THE MIRACLES OF EXODUS by Cholin Humphreys a world-renowned Cambridge University Scientist.
Cholin sees where the Hebrew word ELEPH also means TROOP so this is why we are instructed to STUDY TO SHOW YOURSELF APPROVED!
Change the word “THOUSAND ” with TROOP and knowing what we do of the ancient world and the size of a TROOP..figure it out!
Total troop strength of men over 20 was closer to 5,550…total number of people in the Exodus = 20,000.
See how easy that was instead of fighting God with lies why not use the mind He gave you and LIVE!



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harryoutdoors

posted February 28, 2009 at 6:55 pm


That was me… I forgot my name …the Liberal Congress lost their minds!



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 7:43 pm


Harry,
Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy, as Yahweh your God has commanded you. Labor for six days, doing all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath for Yahweh your God. You must not do any work that day, neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your servants – male or female – nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your animals, nor the foreigner who has made his home with you; so that your servants, male and female, may rest, as you do. Remember that you were once a slave in Egypt, and that Yahweh your god brought you out of there with mighty hand and outstretched arm; THIS is why Yahweh your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day (Deut 5:12-15).
In the other Exodus version the reason for keeping the Sabbath is different: “For in six days Yahweh made the heavens, earth and sea and all that these contain, but on the seventh day he rested; THAT is why Yahweh has blessed the Sabbath day and made it sacred” (Ex 20:11). This proves that there are conflicting accounts about where and when Moses received the commandments because there are conflicting reasons given by God himself for keeping the Sabbath. God’s memory must have been a little fuzzy after just forty years I guess. What more proof do you need that there are two conflicting accounts about where and when Moses received the commandments? Can we say cognitive dissonance? Is there anyone else who cannot see this?



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Mary-Lee

posted February 28, 2009 at 7:54 pm


See how easy that was instead of fighting God with lies why not use the mind He gave you and LIVE!,
Plenty of people who do use their minds, along with using archaeological and historical evidence, have concluded that the exodus from Egypt never happened.
That does not take away one bit from the Biblical story, however.
The commandments existed in different forms in many ancient codes. They weren’t a new idea when the Hebrew people came up with them. But neither does that fact take away from the fact that the commandments provide us with a good way to live.
Neither was freedom and the human desire for freedom from slavery. That desire will always triumph, whether it takes four years or four hundred. Monarchs and politicians who want power over people’s lives need to take notice.
The story about Moses bringing together the men of Israel and organizing them into small manageable groups shows that it’s important to delegate because no one person can possibly do it all.
You miss the lessons by nitpicking about the literalness of the Bible. The lessons are what matters.



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 7:56 pm


Incredible so what your saying that YOUR figure is more accurate than the Bible’s then right? Don’t translate Hebrew for me, I’m a Jew and I know what it says: “Such was the tally of the Israelites when the census was taken by families. The full count of the entire camp, unit by unit, came to six hundred and three thousand five hundred and fifty (Numbers 2:32). Now when a number is given like that we aren’t adding smaller numbers of troop groups to larger numbers like five hundred. The number is over six hundred thousand and this is just adult males. We’re talking about 2 million people here, not the figure that you just made up. I guess you know the population of Palestine was around one hundred thousand people during the centuries the Conquest supposedly occurred. So apparently you’re trying to do a typical Christian Hollywood makeover on the Bible to cover yet another absurdity. It didn’t work when you changed unicorns to wild oxes and this sham isn’t working either. Busted.



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harryoutdoors

posted February 28, 2009 at 8:45 pm


Boris, that wasn’t Incredible…that was me…and so what if you are a Jew? You apparently are ignorant of recent studies in Ancient Hebrew and are just following the herd of neo atheists because you use the same old hackneyed arguments…
I didn’t make up anything …I researched this and much smarter minds than you and I have discovered this aspect of basic meanings of words.
Are you denying the fact that ELEPH also means TROOP? If so, then you are wrestling with HAVING TO BE RIGHT regardless of what the facts are.
You can pout and throw a hissy fit all you want but at the end of the day we find BIBLE 100% poor ATHEISTS 0%..
Sometimes atheists are more mystical than they claim we Christians are…



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harryoutdoors

posted February 28, 2009 at 8:50 pm


ohhh…you might try closing your eyes and clicking your heels together and repeating I am right! I am right! I am right!
You’ll get the same results as repeating old worn out atheist propaganda! (just trying to help!)



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Your Name

posted February 28, 2009 at 9:27 pm


I can’t believe you can look at EXODUS and not see this is the account when God gave the Ten Commandments and compare this with DUETERONOMY and see this is an ACCOUNT and REMINDER of WHEN GOD GAVE THE ORIGINAL TEN COMANDMENTS.
HINT: THEY DON’T HAVE TO BE IDENTICAL!
One is speaking of the original happening in present tense…
1And God spake all these words, saying,
Exodus20
2I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
3Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
4Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
The other Dueteronomy is talking about WHEN (past)…it’s a speech to the nation recounting and reminding…not required to be exact and is allowed to have additions and explanations just as if we gave a speech to an American audience and spoke about the Constitution…we can give explitives and explain fine points …this is called a GOOD SPEECH rather than just read off the document and sit down.
Deuteronomy 5
1And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
2The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
3The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
4The LORD talked with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire,
5(I stood between the LORD and you at that time, to shew you the word of the LORD: for ye were afraid by reason of the fire, and went not up into the mount;) saying,
Do you have basic reading skills? It’s okay to admit it if you don’t.



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 9:36 pm


You can pout and throw a hissy fit all you want but at the end of the day we find BIBLE 100% poor ATHEISTS 0%..
Boris says: “Next I saw four angels, standing at the FOUR CORNERS of the earth, holding back the four winds of the world to keep them from blowing over the land or the sea or any tree” – (Rev 7:1)
Do you have basic reading skills? It’s okay to admit it if you don’t.
At the end of the day you creationists can find whatever you want. The rest of us know better.



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 9:41 pm


Harry on what day of creation was Adam created? Do you know?



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harryoutdoors

posted February 28, 2009 at 11:00 pm


Boris, you tell me…you’re a Jew, you can read Hebrew!



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Boris

posted February 28, 2009 at 11:24 pm


Okay Harry but if you want to stay on this subject contact me at the ULR thingy. I’m done with it after this because I don’t want to bore people with it. I’ll use the NRSV’s translation instead of my own this time so you won’t think I’m changing anything.
Most people think Adam was created on the sixth day of God’s creation but they haven’t read the text carefully. In Gen 2:4-8 it says: These are the generations of the heavens and the earth when they were created. In the day that the LORD made the earth and heavens, when no plant of the field was yet in the earth and no herb of the field had yet sprung up—for the LORD God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was no one to till the ground; but a stream would rise from the earth, and water the whole face of the ground—then the LORD God formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living being. And the LORD God planted a garden in Eden, in the east; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
The Bible says that Adam was created on the day that God made the earth and heavens and before there was any vegetation on the ground. The Bible says that was the third day: Then God said, “Let the earth put forth vegetation: plants yielding seed, and fruit trees of every kind on earth that bear fruit with seed in it.” And it was so. The earth brought forth vegetation: plants yielding seed of every kind bearing fruit with seed in it. And God saw that it was good. And there was evening and there was morning, the third day (Gen 1:11-13). It is clearly impossible that Adam is one of those two people created together on day six of God’s Creation.



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harryoutdoors

posted March 1, 2009 at 3:40 am


Okay, apparently you haven’t studied the layout of early Summerian tablets or know anything about the discoveries of EBLA…these shed tons of light on the LAYOUT of the OLd Testament.
It also clears up alot of confusion about the Creation accoount.
Simply put, the layout of a publication can reveal much about how we read the book, tablet or scroll…if you don’t agree with this then we can’t talk about language at all.
Early tablets had Chapter headings, contents and geneologies…such as IN THE BEGINNING GOD CREATED THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH….Many scholars believe this is the TITLE and then comes the actual CREATION ACCOUNT…when we follow the tablet layouts we see Geneses account as beginning Gen 1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth….then Gen 1:2 Begining the actual Account…
Tablet scholars such as Curt Sewell and The Tablet Theory of
Genesis Authorship believe the account of creation ends at Gen 2:4a
Sewell and others have noted“colophon phrases” in geneses such as are found on tablets of EBLA and other Summerian types…
“colophon phrases”at the end; these named the writer or owner of the tablet; they had words to identify the subject, and often some sort of dating phrase. If multiple tablets were involved, there were also “catch-lines” to connect a tablet to its next in sequence. Many of these old records related to family histories and origins, which were evidently highly important to those ancient people. Wiseman noticed the similarity of many of these to the sections of the book of Genesis.”
This break clears up a great problem of the ACTUAL ACCOUNT of the CREATION being in the FIRST CHAPTER and not having chapter 2 being a continuation of the same ACTUAL ACCOUNT…
Just reading chapter 1 and chapter 2 ANYONE can see the first part is a step by step description of creation….second part is totally different type of voice…the second part Gen 2:5 to chapter 5 is clearly telling a story of Man interacting with God and Creation and the fall…
To put this simpler…imagine the first chapter of Genesis as being the BLUEPRINT of a building and the 2nd to 5th as being the HISTORY of the family who lived in the building…both would have sometimes similiarities when the building is mentioned but NO NEED TO COVER THE SAME INFORMATION.
It’s a form of INSANITY for anyone to compare a BLUEPRINT with a FAMILY HISTORY…wouldn’t you agree?
Common sense is also a tool that unlocks much of the confusion of the Old Testament.
Okay…late….good night Boris…have a good day tommorrow!
harry



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jimbino

posted March 1, 2009 at 7:46 am


I just want to know why Adam and Eve have belly buttons in all those paintings and why Michelangelo’s David is not circumcised.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 2, 2009 at 8:31 am


==Harry on what day of creation was Adam created?== – “Boris”
==Boris, you tell me…you’re a Jew, you can read Hebrew!== – Harry
Stand back, Harry! I’ll handle this!
God created Man on the sixth day.
==Most people think Adam was created on the sixth day of God’s creation but they haven’t read the text carefully.==
Yes, we have, and our account follows God’s account.
The account of the creation of Man is not in chronological order. Genesis 2’s creation of Man splices to Genesis 1’s creation. They are the same act whose elements follow this order:
God created the spirit of Man after His Image.
God programmed the spirit of Man.
God created the physical being of Man from the dust of the ground and installed the spirit of Man in the physical being of Man.
From Man, He brought woman.
All that happened on the sixth day.
==The Bible says that Adam was created on the day that God made the earth and heavens and before there was any vegetation on the ground. The Bible says that was the third day…==
No, it doesn’t.
Y’see, Harry? That is what comes from reading the Word of God as though it were a newspaper. If he were interested in the Truth, he would read the Word as He was intended to be read.
==It is clearly impossible that Adam is one of those two people created together on day six of God’s Creation.==
To YOU, it’s impossible. Not to God Who came to Earth in the Person of Jesus.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 2, 2009 at 8:46 am


==1. You shall have no other gods other than me.
Sorry but our founders PURPOSELY BROKE this commandment to let people have as many and whatever gods as they want or no God at all. “It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are 20 gods, or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”- Thomas Jefferson…==
The Founders broke no Commandment here by saying that OTHERS who have many gods, or no god [nor God]. Jefferson is saying, in essence, that the breaking of the Commandment is his neighbor’s problem.
==…our founders were deists who believed in Nature’s god.==
Except that Jefferson wrote, “Nature’s God,” not, “Nature’s god.” He knew the difference. You don’t.
== Notice when they do refer to God he gets second billing to Nature.==
Not true. Jefferson is saying that Nature has God over her.
==I love debunking Christian apologetic lies.==
You love pushing that rock up the hill and letting it push you back down, huh.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 2, 2009 at 9:02 am


==Observe the Sabbath day and keep it holy, as Yahweh your God has commanded you. Labor for six days, doing all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath for Yahweh your God. You must not do any work that day, neither you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your servants – male or female – nor your ox, nor your donkey, nor any of your animals, nor the foreigner who has made his home with you; so that your servants, male and female, may rest, as you do. Remember that you were once a slave in Egypt, and that Yahweh your god brought you out of there with mighty hand and outstretched arm; THIS is why Yahweh your God has commanded you to keep the Sabbath day (Deut 5:12-15). ==
Sooo, Jesus violated this by working on the Sabbath? Ridiculous.
==In the other Exodus version the reason for keeping the Sabbath is different…This proves that there are conflicting accounts about where and when Moses received the commandments because there are conflicting reasons given by God himself for keeping the Sabbath.==
The conflict is in YOUR mind.
== What more proof do you need that there are two conflicting accounts about where and when Moses received the commandments?==
Which set of The Ten Commandments? The first, or the second?
You have proved that the conflict swirls around in your head.
== Is there anyone else who cannot see this?==
All of us can see that you see it wrongly. Surprise, surprise.



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Boris

posted March 2, 2009 at 9:54 am


That’s right defend your boogy book that claims the earth is flat and immovable, sits on a foundation with pillars as the sun hurries across the sky (unless someone stops it! ROFL!), has four corners and according design hoaxer William Dembski has billions of invisible boogy entities running around doing who knows what exactly. Defend your fairy tales about demons, angels, satyrs (half man, half horse), fiery serpents, Satan, seraphs, giants, unicorns, dragons, Jesus, talking animals and vegetation, cockatrices, flying serpents, and the rest of the goofy non-existent things you creationists believe in. It’s no wonder you belittle the fossil record – we’ve never found any of the goofy animals the Bible claims existed in it. ROFL! You people ask for all kinds of evidence to prove scientists know what they are talking about and yet you’ve never asked any of cult leaders for any evidence whatsoever for any of the idiotic claims they make about the Bible. You’ll swallow whatever these OTHER PEOPLE tell you to. It’s no wonder creationists are the laughingstock of the entire world. But then they always have been.



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Boris

posted March 2, 2009 at 10:19 am


“There is obviously an important difference between an establishment [i.e., science] that is open… and one that regards the questioning of its credentials as do to wickedness of heart, such as [Cardinal] Newman attributed to those who questions the infallibility of the Bible. Rational science treats its credit notes as always redeemable on demand, while non-rational authoritarianism regards the demand for the redemption of its paper as a disloyal lack of faith.” -Morris R. Cohen (1880-1947)
“That religion is inherently irrational is surely true. Why one set of beliefs that are offered without argument or evidence rather than another?” – Noam Chomsky
“After Newton, it was but a short stop to removing God altogether.” – B.R. Hergenhahn



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 2, 2009 at 3:53 pm


==You’ll swallow whatever these OTHER PEOPLE tell you to.==
Then, Boris gives us quotes from OTHER people as “authoritative” references to back up his “claims.” Heh.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 2, 2009 at 4:04 pm


==Defend your fairy tales about demons, angels, satyrs (half man, half horse), fiery serpents, Satan, seraphs, giants, unicorns, dragons, Jesus, talking animals and vegetation, cockatrices, flying serpents, and the rest of the goofy non-existent things you creationists believe in.==
Already done. You missed it.



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Boris

posted March 2, 2009 at 8:31 pm


I must have.



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Your Name

posted March 3, 2009 at 9:27 am


Our country is likened to a conversation with Boris…say something long enough and people will just take it without a challenge…
Case in point the Democrat landslide.
Y’see, Harry? That is what comes from reading the Word of God as though it were a newspaper…
Well said Incredible…Boris is not altogether to be blamed though, atheists are spoiled today…they get great results by just making unfounded claims that go unchallenged.
Notice how many claims Boris makes without really taking time to research the Hebrew or Greek roots…
He says he just reads the Bible like any other book…apparently he doesn’t care to examine things as long as he can make a case to support his own bias.
That’s why I asked him to answer his own question… The Pride of atheists usually hang them.



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Mary-Lee

posted March 3, 2009 at 11:48 am


Boris, you tell me…you’re a Jew, you can read Hebrew!
First of all, Harry, not every Jewish person can read Hebrew well enough to read the Bible in the original and read it accurately. Secondly, it is impossible to be Jewish and at the same time to be a fundamentalist. Judaism and fundamentalism just don’t mix!



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Boris

posted March 3, 2009 at 12:03 pm


Your name said: The Pride of atheists usually hang them.
Boris says: I would ask for some case where atheists have hung themselves but all I would get from Your Name is more Christian psycho-babble. I should point out that the only people hanging atheists for 1600 years were Bible believing Christians. Atheism frightens believers because they make it painfully obvious that intelligent people see no evidence or reason to believe in any God.
“It is not accidental that Christianity regards pride as a major sin. A man of self-esteem is an unlikely candidate for the master-slave relationship that Christianity offers him. A man lacking in self esteem, however, a man ridden with guilt and self-doubt, will frequently prefer the apparent security of Christianity over independence and find comfort in the thought that, for the price of total submissiveness, God will love and protect him.
In exchange for obedience, Christianity offers salvation, that there is something to be saved from. Christianity has nothing to offer a happy man living in a natural intelligible universe. If Christianity is to gain a motivational foothold, it must declare war on earthly pleasure and happiness, and this, historically, has been its precise course of action. In the eyes of Christianity, man is sinful and helpless in the face of God, and is potential fuel for the flames of hell. Just as Christianity must destroy reason before it can induce faith, so it must destroy happiness before it can induce salvation.
The fundamental teaching of Jesus-the demand for conformity thus gives rise to a fundamental and viciously destructive teaching of Christianity: That some beliefs lie beyond the scope of criticism, and that to question them is sinful, or morally wrong. By Christianity declares itself and enemy of truth and of the faculty by which man arrives at truth-reason.” – A Thinking Persons Guide to Atheism.



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Wayne

posted March 3, 2009 at 1:54 pm


Boris,
“Atheism frightens believers because they make it painfully obvious that intelligent people see no evidence or reason to believe in any God.”
Does that mean that if someone believes in God they are not intelligent?



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Boris

posted March 3, 2009 at 2:41 pm


Wayne, No. Intelligent people believe in God by using selective observation and subjective instead of objective reasoning. Nearly three-fourths of all studies since the 1920s that investigated a correlation between intelligence and religious affiliation have found that the proportion of atheists, agnostic individuals, and deists increases dramatically as you move up the scale in school grades, exam scores, and IQ tests. The remaining fourth of the studies show no correlation; zero reviews suggested that people in organized religions are more intelligent than those with secular beliefs. The apparent conclusion to draw from the data is that people who are more intelligent tend to disbelieve religious superstitions.



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Your Name

posted March 3, 2009 at 8:11 pm


BULL FEATHERS BORIS!
You’re as reliable as a CBS POLL!
You just spout out statistics not realizing WE BELIEVERS ARE INTELLIGENT enough to know better.
I can’t believe you even waste time posting ths DRIBBLE!
And for you info…I didn’t mean atheist rally hung themselves…this ISN’T THE FIRST TIME YOU MISREAD A SIMPLE SENTENCE!



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Your Name

posted March 3, 2009 at 8:37 pm


Hi Mary-Lee,
Actually I was being a bit sarcastic when I said,
“Boris, you tell me…you’re a Jew, you can read Hebrew!”
Earlier Boris had made a statement to Incredible lecturing Incredible not to teach him about Hebrew, because he was a Jew and knew Hebrew.
I wasn’t makeing a rash statement about Jews all knowing Hebrew….and Boris was insinuating he knew when Adam was created so, I wanted to draw him out and see what angle he was comng from…that’s all.
thanks,
Harry



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 4, 2009 at 9:37 am


==Boris is not altogether to be blamed though…==
Why not, Har’? Does he have access to the same stuff to which WE have access?? Why does his “reasoning” stop at meanspirited atheism? What kinda Science is THAT?
==…atheists are spoiled today…they get great results by just making unfounded claims that go unchallenged==
The “unchallenged” part is OUR fault. You and I are trying to change that, though.
==Notice how many claims Boris makes without really taking time to research the Hebrew or Greek roots…==
His so-called, “empiricism,” of course, goes only so far, dontcha know. After all, there’s an agenda to get out.
==He says he just reads the Bible like any other book…==
And, as you know, the Word of God is intended otherwise.
==…apparently he doesn’t care to examine things as long as he can make a case to support his own bias.==
Like what the Devil did in the Garden. Some things never change, huh.



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Freestinker

posted March 6, 2009 at 12:50 pm


==…atheists are spoiled today…they get great results by just making unfounded claims that go unchallenged==
———————————————————–
That’s really funny coming from a clan who claims that a god exists without any evidence other than a old collection of books that claim (again without any evidence) that it was written by said god.
From what I can tell, Christianity is the undisputed champion of “unfounded claims”!



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 7, 2009 at 3:35 pm


==… a clan who claims that a god exists without any evidence …==
We don’t claim “god” exists. Sucha “god” doesn’t exist in OUR lives, anyway. We understand he exists in YOUR lives. That’s the problem.



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Jorbe

posted March 10, 2009 at 11:17 pm


Am I the only one who has asked himself, how is Barry Lynn a reverend? What a worthless title if given to this man.If he is a Rev., of what organization? He seems so anti-Christian in his stances. I would never, while calling him by name precede with Rev.! Or Bro. for that matter!



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Freestinker

posted March 14, 2009 at 9:14 pm


“We don’t claim “god” exists. Sucha “god” doesn’t exist in OUR lives, anyway. We understand he exists in YOUR lives. That’s the problem.”
——————————————————–
Now you’re sounding like a clear thinking atheist! Welcome aboard!



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 16, 2009 at 5:03 am


==”We don’t claim “god” exists. Sucha “god” doesn’t exist in OUR lives, anyway. We understand he exists in YOUR lives. That’s the problem.”
——————————————————–
Now you’re sounding like a clear thinking atheist! Welcome aboard!==
You’re hearing must be WWWAAAYYY off to have “heard” something I didn’t say.
You don’t know the difference between “god” and “God,” do you.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 16, 2009 at 9:11 am


==/==…atheists are spoiled today…they get great results by just making unfounded claims that go unchallenged==
———————————————————–
That’s really funny coming from a clan who claims that a god exists…==
“gods” like money and cars and stereos, for example. They exist, but we recognize that they give us no life.
==…without any evidence…==
None that you’ll believe anyway.
==… other than a old collection of books…==
The “books,” themselves, aren’t the evidence, except that they contain on-scene, eyewitness testimony of the events of the time.
You accept evidence that agrees with what you want to think, the results you want. So, you reject evidence that doesn’t give you the results you want. It’s THAT simple.
==… that claim (again without any evidence) that it was written by said god.==
The Word of God was NOT written by a “god.”
==From what I can tell…==
And THAT is incredibly little.
==… Christianity is the undisputed champion of “unfounded claims”!==
Especially when you want Christianity to be so.



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Freestinker

posted March 16, 2009 at 6:02 pm


“You don’t know the difference between “god” and “God,” do you.”
————————–
MrIncredulous,
Your “God” is just another god, one of many depending on your beliefs.
One thing that all gods have in common is that they were all invented by humans and none of them have ever been proven to exist outside the inner workings of people’s minds.



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Mr. Incredible

posted March 17, 2009 at 6:33 am


==Your “God” is just another god…==
No, He isn’t. He is unlike any other god ever conceived by the imperfect, corruptible minds of men.
==One thing that all gods have in common is that they were all invented by humans and none of them have ever been proven to exist outside the inner workings of people’s minds.==
No proof that YOU’LL ever believe, anyway.



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Freestinker

posted March 17, 2009 at 11:49 am


“No, He isn’t. He is unlike any other god ever conceived by the imperfect, corruptible minds of men.”
——————
That’s what you (another human) believe. Fair enough.
If you’ve got some independently verifiable empirical evidence, you’d be the first in history to produce it …. I’m all ears!



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N. Lindzee Lindholm

posted November 10, 2009 at 9:51 am


The Ten Commandments monument should be upheld because of Van Orden v. Perry. Moreover, they are a part of the Christian heritage that our Country was founded on. Therefore, the Court was on target when they stated Summum had no recourse under the Establishment Clause.



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N. Lindzee Lindholm

posted November 10, 2009 at 9:52 am


The Ten Commandments monument should be upheld because of Van Orden v. Perry. Moreover, they are a part of the Christian heritage that our Country was founded on. Therefore, the Court was on target when they stated Summum had no recourse under the Establishment Clause.



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Previous Posts

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Thank you for visiting LynnvSekulow. This blog is no longer being updated. Please enjoy the archives. Here is another blog you may also enjoy: Jay Sekulow: Faith and Justice  Happy Reading!

posted 11:26:38am Aug. 16, 2012 | read full post »

Another blog to enjoy!!!
Thank you for visiting Lynn V. Sekulow. This blog is no longer being updated. Please enjoy the archives. Here is another blog you may also enjoy: Jay Sekulow's Faith and Justice Happy Reading!!!

posted 10:36:04am Jul. 06, 2012 | read full post »

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posted 12:24:43pm Nov. 21, 2010 | read full post »

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posted 11:46:49am Nov. 05, 2010 | read full post »




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