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J Walking


Giuliani v. Clinton, Bill

posted by David Kuo

In an earlier post I said I thought Giuliani was unraveling and:

I think details of his affair with Judith Nathan while he was mayor will emerge and a lot of Republicans will begin to wonder how, exactly, his behavior differed from Bill Clinton’s when he was in office.

I just read this comment from Doug:

Giuliani’s behavior differs from Clinton’s in that Clinton stayed married.

Amen to that. The Clintons have each and only been married to one another. That is to applauded.



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Larry Parker

posted November 30, 2007 at 1:39 pm


His affair with Judi Nathan at a time when he and Donna Hanover were very obviously badly estranged shouldn’t be the issue (unless it can be proved Rudy committed fraud, as the NYC tabloids are now charging — but which would disqualify him from the Oval Office regardless.) The affair is certainly an issue for his kids, but not for his fitness for office. They did make an honest man and woman out of each other, after all.
No, the Rudy affair that may blow the lid off his campaign is the one he’s desperately tried to keep quiet for years — the one he had BEFORE meeting Judi, at a time when on the outside his marriage was still seemingly happy, with a woman who (I won’t name the name, but it’s all over the Internet) until very recently still held a prominent position in New York City …



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Bob Morwell

posted November 30, 2007 at 2:22 pm


I find it ironic that among the five top candidates in the so-called “pro family values” Republican Party, (Romney, Giuliani, Huckabee, McCain, Thompson) there have been four divorces.
Amont the top five Democratic candidates (Clinton, Obama, Edwards, Richardson, Biden) there have been none.
Republicans like to dismiss the Clinton’s marrioage as simply one of political convenience. But they are strangely silent about Rudy’s affairs and assume that marrying Judith Nathan somehow erases the fact that the man dumoped his wife in a way that left even most jaded New Yorkers stunned and disgusted. They forget that he had become very unpopular because of his personal behavior prior to 9/11.



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Anonymous

posted November 30, 2007 at 2:33 pm


Bob: Actually there have been 5 divorces among the top 4 Republic candidates. Giuliani had 2.



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TO-07

posted December 1, 2007 at 9:24 am


Who was the greatest political leader mentioned so highly in the Bible?
A man who was married, commited adultery with a friends wife, killed that friend when he couldn’t get him drunk and trick him into sleeping with his wife who was by then already pregnant by this political leader.
I don’t know who advises Mr Guiliani on his presentation to the public about his morality, but I’ll bet that Guiliani hasn’t advised his children to kill his political opponents after his passing. I know that Guiliani hasn’t slaughtered people “in his tens of thousands.”
I thought the moral of the story in the Bible was repentance and forgiveness?
And what Biblical couple were the worst political leaders mentioned in the Bible?
It was a couple that were wicked and stayed together in marriage. So wicked in fact, that “Ahab and Jezebel” is a label for wickedness to this day. Especially the moniker “Jezebel.”
So from the vantage point of history, Guiliani versus Clinton doesn’t look so bad for the bald guy from New York city.
(BTW, There’s story in the Bible about some kids teasing a bald guy. He was actually a Prophet. These kids were mauled by a Bear as the recompense for their insult.)
When comparing political leaders of the Bible such as King David versus Ahab and Jezebel, we may have a clue as to why a Christian like Pat Robertson would feel that he could support Guiliani.
(That’s my two-cents worth. Take for what it is.)



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Thinker

posted December 1, 2007 at 12:14 pm


I’m not sure why I’m writing about the idea of Satan, but as a good mimetic theorist – it’s always the first thing that comes up.
The word ‘Satan’ can be translated as either ‘the accuser’ or the adversary. Both words tell us a lot about the nature of a satanic energy. It is adversarial because such energy thrives on planting, sowing and enflaming or nurturing conflict in our communities – church, political, school etc. This energy works by using false accusations, insinuation, innuendo – or in short by being a messenger of doubt about the goodness of anyone who seems to be powerful in any sense. It is always hoped that a justice system can weed out false accusations, but with a media determined to thrive on mere speculation, turning that speculation into fact. it becomes difficult to see truth in any form. During these political campaigns, we are deluged with series of false or even somewhat truthful accusations – we judge candidates using this satanic energy rather than actually examining issues that will affect our lives, our moral sense, the wellbeing of others. It is a system of distractions guaranteed to avoid talking about anything that matters. Soon candidates – even candidates with real integrity fall into this maelstrom of accusations and counter accusations and once you’ve fallen into it – you can’t get out. When everyone is busy pointing the finger at some “other” rather than accepting responsibility – well – that’s when satanic energy has engulfed the process. I think that Scripture suggests that to find evil – look for who is accusing. Note that Jesus never allied himself with the accusers, but always with the victims of such accusations.
Guiliani seems to be reaping what he has sown, but I would much rather examine his cruel and faulty logic on almost any issue than take him down because of this sort of weakness. I find him a weak candidate because he relies on gathering mobs rather than any true ideals. Can’t locate any of those in his speeches. How to vote – how to support someone when it seems they have all been pushed into the perfect storm of accusations and we are there with them. perhaps that is a question we need to ask ourselves.



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Doug

posted December 1, 2007 at 4:08 pm


Thinker, I agree with you. I would have no problem voting for a rogue if I thought he’d cooperate with the restoration of our laws and an incremental step away from folly unjustified by practical or moral reason when it comes to immigration. I see Giuliani and Romney as identical candidates who I won’t be supporting for identical reasons.



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Anonymous

posted December 1, 2007 at 7:38 pm


“Who was the greatest political leader mentioned so highly in the Bible?
A man who was married, commited adultery with a friends wife, killed that friend when he couldn’t get him drunk and trick him into sleeping with his wife who was by then already pregnant by this political leader.”
You might vote for this guy, but I sure as heck wouldn’t.
If you would forgive him and take your chances, good for you. But what people have done in the past is the best indicator of what they’ll do in the future.
My 2 cents.



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Donny

posted December 1, 2007 at 11:17 pm


Thinker,
There’s a certain community with an agenda that uses accusations like “homophobia” and “hate crimes perpetrator” and is adversarial towards the Christian Church.
Satan was real to Jesus. Not just a force, but a real entity.
It’s all about what side your on.
Jesus accused many people of doing wrong. You ever read His parables? He even accused Satan of being a liar from the beginning. And Jesus was certainly adversarial to the peaceful Sanhedrin members.



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Thinker

posted December 2, 2007 at 11:25 am


Well, it was King David. He had he ability to grow, repent, make amends and loved God. I think I would like that in a leader.



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Charity

posted December 2, 2007 at 11:53 am


One thing that always struck me about the Kings of ancient Israel, even David, is the fact that the God of the Israelites did NOT want his people ruled by a king. The people clammered for one – and they got Saul (who had some….mental health issues), David (great general, not so good at ruling), Solomon (wise, built the temple – but taxed the people to the point of rebellion) after which the ‘kingdom’ split in two.
It’s easy to focus on the dramatic stories – David and Bathsheba for example – and to forget that the little stories are connected to earlier bad decisions.
God chooses leaders, not rulers. I personally don’t think he wants people to be ‘ruled’ – for one thing that it is an impossible burden for a person to bear and most people go for the temptation of the power in it (ruling).
I want someone who makes decision based on what’s best for the country – to what’s best for his/her pride, or cronies or campaign donors or PACs or lobbyists.
Getting back to the issue of our elected leaders and adultery. One thing that bothered me was the fact that so many people who claim to be against divorce condemned Hillary for staying with Bill. Rep. Vitter’s wife was one of them. But when evidence of HER husband’s infidelity came up, she also choose to stay. Should we assume her motives were purely political? Why claim that for Hillary? I mean, if all she was thinking of was her political future, there would have been just as much to gain by divorce as by staying married.
In a way, I feel sorry for Hillary on the issue of her marriage. Because in the eyes of her enemies – she’s d*mned for staying with him, but she’d also be d*mned for leaving. All this negative energy and emotion – yet we can have a leader lie, condone torture, cover-up the betrayal of a secret agent (an act that could be considered treason), invade a country and the put incompetents in charge simply because they believe the ‘right’ things – and those same people who hate Hillary defend that ‘leader’.
Forgive me, but I just have a hard time believing that they are right.



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Le'Nora Hunt

posted December 2, 2007 at 5:44 pm


On the issue regarding of the conduct (infidelity) of our political leaders, the resolve is not so easy.
Regarding the Bill and Hillary situation. First, they are married. Next, how that issue was to be resolved belonged only to them. Yes they really needed to work on it, but it was and still is not any of our business. God gave us ten commandments and since they are both educated, of the age of understanding and rasoning and very capable of making their own decisions, we should have butted out!! I am not condoning his behavior, but it was absolutely none of our business!!! The fact that another political individual was nursing a personal vindetta is not an acceptable excuse. First, the Clinton’s like all of the rest of us are human beings, not superior beings. Secondly, they not only have each other’s welfare to consider, but they have a daughter whose welfare, also is their responsibility as “they” are the parents. I am sure it was not easy for any member of the Clinton family to have been put on trial, such as they were. We as a nation, like it or not, have the full responsibility of not making a mockery of the leader of our country. Again, I don’t condone Mr. Clinton’s action, but the young lady involved (and she was of consenting age) had responsibility, as well. I kept hearing about how it must not have been easy for her to turn down the President. As far as all the publicity indicated, she has had morality issues long before she came to work for the President. She was completely responsible for her conduct. We made excuses for her as if she was innocent, but she was far from. What the public (the American people) forgot or neglected to give attention to was:
(1) President Clinton did not force her
(2) She wasn’t dragged in off the street or ordered from a catalog
(3) She had the responsibility to “Just Say No!”
(4) She had the responnsibility to safeguard her own values/morals
(5) Both were adults and within the leagal jurisdiction
(6) Both made poor choices
(7) It was absolutely none or our business!!!!
The sad thing about hate/revenge is that it not only smeered the first family, but the country. The minute that news broke, we as children of God should have had nothing to do with it. That matter and its resolve belonged strictly to the Clintons!! President Clinton may have hurt himself and his family, but he never hurt the Country!! Hate, made his personal business degrade,demoralize and demeen our Country. The Clintons had all the help they needed available to them. They had each other, they had clergy and most of all they had (and still have) God so they definitely didn’t need our butting in.
God and ONLY God has the right to take revenge. We as children of God should not be so eager to participate in muck raking. Still not condonig President Clinton’s action, the truth is he did not flaunt his infidelity in front of the nation, but we as a nation didn’t have the courage or good sense to tell the media (all of the media) and that vengeful politician to take a hike. For the sake of our country, we should have excerside better judgement. President and Mrs. Clinton are still one union and our country is divided, torn apart, insulted and by its own people. We are so blessed to be living in the greatest country in all the world and we sure need to step up to the plate and support her. As for Giuliani, he has his own cross to bare. I don’t condone his lifestyle, as well, but let’s not leave out the women who join him in his escpades. None of them are innocent! There are so many major, critical and important issues in this world that the improprieties of our political leaders should not be given so much media coverage. If necessary, there are means in place to handle those kinds of issues and dragging them out in front of the entire world isn’t necessary. There are always consequences for our actions and like President Clinton, Giuliani will have to face the music. President Clinton apologized to his family and to the country and we need to find something else to talk about.
It’s time we grow, as a nation, and stop bashing one another and our country. The whole world is watching and for being the greatest nation in the world, we are far from the smartest. God gave one commandment, Love one another. Every time we allow the media to feed garbage to the world about the American people, we fall further from grace. Listen up America, the rest of the world is hurting to bad to give attention to who has sex with, who marries who or who gives a damn!!
It’s time we started living up the the enormous blessing bestowed upon us. President Kennedy said the United States is second to none. When will we begin to believe it and live it?????
Sincerely,
Le’Nora



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canucklehead

posted December 2, 2007 at 9:42 pm


President Kennedy said the United States is second to none. When will we begin to believe it and live it?????
Sincerely,
Le’Nora
Posted by: Le’Nora Hunt | December 2, 2007 5:44 PM
So, Le’Nora, b/c JFK said it, that makes it so? If so, in what sense is the U.S. “second to none?” Militarily? Is that the ultimate measure of anything in God’s sight? Materially? Again, is that the ultimate in God’s eyes? Morally? uh, well…
I love the U.S. and thank God that it’s our neighbor but having lived on both sides of the 49th, I’ll choose my identity as a Canadian any day over that of an American. It has implications for the freedom I’m rec’vd w/ when I travel abroad. It has implications for how we view ourselves and are viewed on the international stage.
Frankly, the whole religio-political thing in the U.S. is a cottage industry that we Canadians are greatly amused by. As David’s book so pointedly reminds us, mix religion and politics and politics wins every time. I guess that’s one thing we learned from the British which is why in Canada we just don’t waste time going down that road. We elect our leaders based on their competence as administrators of the public interest. Just as a doctor, mechanic, teacher’s competence isn’t ultimately related to what church they attend or what creed they embrace, why is it any different with a politician?
The U.S. has been ruled by arguably “pro-life” presidents for 5 of the last 7 terms, did it (not that I’m saying it necessarily should have) make any difference on reversing Roe v. Wade? Precisely what has Bush II accomplished as an “evangelical” in the White House that nobody else could have done? His supposed evangelical stature has proven to be a major disappointment to many Americans. So I don’t understand why, even in the run-up to this election, Americans continue to believe that a candidate’s personal theology is so important.
Let them acknowledge the existence of a divine power and, accordingly, get on with making wise decisions in running the affairs of state accordingly. From what I can tell, playing the “Jesus” card or the “Biblical authority” card hasn’t really made a hill of beans of difference in any U.S. president’s effectiveness in the past, so why do Americans continue to act as if it will in the future?
I’z just perplexed, I guess. (Not that it takes much to perplex me!)



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Larry Parker

posted December 2, 2007 at 11:30 pm


Charity, Le’Nora (and of course, David):
But you have to admit, at least from the outside (and that’s never the fairest view of a couple, I realize), the Clintons have one of the just plain strangest and weirdest marriages in the modern history of humankind.
I’m not saying they don’t love each other, in a way. But I often wonder what “way” that is …
Thinker:
Helluva hit job on Uriah, though. (As even he was forced to admit in response to Samuel’s parable.)



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Charity

posted December 3, 2007 at 9:17 am


But you have to admit, at least from the outside (and that’s never the fairest view of a couple, I realize), the Clintons have one of the just plain strangest and weirdest marriages in the modern history of humankind.
Really? Ya think so? ^-^ *LOL* Sorry, Larry, but I don’t think so. Maybe women just talk more about their marriages, but based on everything I’ve heard from the media – the Clintons have a pretty typical marriage, or at least it’s not as strange as people like to portray. With about 1/2 of people admitting to cheating at some point in their lives and 22% admitting to cheating on their current partner, Bill’s behavior is pretty typical. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17951664/) As for Hillary staying – *shrug* I’ve seen at lest two battered church wives stay in their marriage for WAY to long. People stay in sexless marriages, people justify S&M on a ‘christian’ basis (seriously). Some of your average, typical people get up to things that are truly bazaar.
{For what it’s worth, I realize that not everyone end’s up having these conversations. For some reason, I end up with people telling me weird stuff – don’t know why. Same thing happens to my dad. Right now my theory is we are both middle kids and developed the habit of actually listening to people}.
So can you tell me WHY you think their marriage is ‘just plain strangest and weirdest in the modern history of humankind’? Not saying you are not right, but I would really like to understand where you are coming from.



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Larry Parker

posted December 3, 2007 at 2:22 pm


Because they seem to have the rarest of the three types of marriages — not a body connection (clearly), not a soul connection (or they would be fully devoted to each other, which they have not been) but rather a MIND connection. They seem to agree on politics, maybe Chelsea, AND NOTHING ELSE.
This type of marriage is not unheard of, I realize. My marriage was a mind connection, actually — and unlike the Clintons, neither of us cheated. But it sure was a strange trip at times, which is why we ended up divorcing.



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Charity

posted December 3, 2007 at 3:32 pm


Larry, not to put words in your mouth or anything, but it seems like what you are saying from time to time is “Bill/Hillary Clinton gives me the willies and that’s just all there is to it?” 8-)



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Larry Parker

posted December 4, 2007 at 12:18 am


Not Bill so much as Hill.
Bill’s conduct is more distasteful, but Hill’s is more inexplicable.



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