Jesus Needs New PR

Jesus Needs New PR


Should Women Say ‘Amen’ in Church?

Put a cigarette in his hand and this could work as a scene from ‘Mad Men.’

Found at Stuff Fundies Like…



Advertisement
Comments read comments(39)
post a comment
Leanne

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:19 pm


so women are not suppose to draw attention to themselves, they are to let the men speak up? Women are called to be meek and gentle, but the men are not? Just trying to get my facts straight.
I always thought when one preached one wasn’t to draw attention to themselves but point to Christ. And I guess the blessed are the meek part of the beatitudes was for the women in the crowd….Men do not need to be blessed at least for being meek.



report abuse
 

Amber

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:20 pm


Wow. So sad.



report abuse
 

Michele Morgan

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:21 pm


Well the big tip off is not how he looks it is the fact that he calls women “the ladies” YIKES!



report abuse
 

Jenn

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:29 pm


I spoke in church a few weeks ago, a the request of my pastor. For the most part I was drawing attention to Jesus. But I did make a joke, and that was probably calling attention to myself. And I did try and look cute, also drawing attention to myself. My husband was speaking with me. So who’s responsible for my unbiblicalness? My pastor for asking me, my husband for allowing me, or me, for doing it? I’m very confused, Pastor Jack. (I do take full responsibility for being funny and for wearing makeup.)



report abuse
 

    RobM

    posted October 1, 2010 at 11:00 am


    I don’t think you wanna know what he thinks of you.



    report abuse
     

Pingback: Tweets that mention Should Women Say ‘Amen’ in Church? | Jesus Needs New PR -- Topsy.com

James

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:37 pm


So, if they are so strong they don’t have to say anything, then men are the “weaker sex”? As respectfully as I can, I say that this guy is twisting scripture and replacing for God’s Word, the traditions of men.
First, let’s get some historical context. In the Greek gatherings, the women often sat in a balcony-like area while their husbands sat or stood on the floor closer to the one teaching or preaching. As a result of their distance, the wives (this word is important later) and other women often could not hear what was said, and so they would speak out! That wasn’t the end of the issue. Often the men would engage these women; either by telling them to be quiet or answering their questions, and so across-the-room conversations would break out and, the next thing you know, there’s no order.
Before we leave this issue, I believe it would be distracting to the reader if I did not address this controversial teaching that women “must be silent in the church” as well as what I believe to be an issue of translation. First let’s look at the phrase “Let your women.”
The two words of importance here are “your” and “women.” The word “your” is the Greek word humōn. It is in the genitive case which means, here, and most often though not always, that it modifies another noun as an indicative of possession. This word translated “women” in the Greek is gunē and it does not, in its truest sense, mean women; it means “wives.” Paul, then, is addressing a relational issue and not a gender issue.
Now, the real crux of this verse we find in the phrase “for they are not permitted to speak.” The word translated “for” literally means “because.” The implication being that the statement Paul is about to make is a rationale for what he has just said and not a declaration unto itself. The word “permitted” is best translated as “to allow, or suffer.” The sense here is that Paul is giving a directive not that women are forbidden in general to speak in churches, but that they should not be allowed to speak – in the interruptive, disorderly manner mentioned before – in the way that they were in Corinth. They were not to speak during the church services without their husband’s permission, not due to inferiority, but due to the logistics of order! Paul exhorts them to, by all means, question their husband when they get home if they don’t understand something, but don’t hinder preaching and evangelism through a disregard for order.
Most importantly, we must understand that Paul never restricted women from ministry. In I Corinthians 11:5-10, he gave specific instructions about how they were to comport themselves while praying (the inference is taking a lead in corporate prayer) or prophesying:

But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled dishonors her head; for that is even the same as if she were shaved.
In Greek culture the woman with a shorn head was a prostitute not under the authority of a husband. Therefore, women who would pray or preach needed their hair as a sign of purity and that they were under the leadership of their husband. It is important to state that this cultural restriction is not in force today, but the principle of faithful marriage and pure living remain.



report abuse
 

    Mariah

    posted September 30, 2010 at 1:55 pm


    Thank you for that eloquent dissertation, James! I couldn’t agree with you more. Dr. Schaap is taking this scripture completely out of context.



    report abuse
     

    Michael

    posted September 30, 2010 at 10:02 pm


    Exactly!!! My grandfather tries to explain this to me many years ago. It’s funny because I was JUST having this same discussion on facebook. I wasn’t sure the exact location (corinth) and the structure of the seating but I was told it was because the wives were asking questions, etc. You also have to take into account women were not respected as much in that time as evidenced by them being separated. Most were not under any formal education unless they were from a wealth family or ruling class. You said it much more eloquently than I did so I posted a link. Maybe this guy should get his “ladies” some burkas?



    report abuse
     

    Roscoe

    posted October 1, 2010 at 11:26 am


    Reasons like this response are why I love this blog!



    report abuse
     

      Mariah

      posted October 1, 2010 at 11:38 pm


      Touche, dear Roscoe. ;-)



      report abuse
       

Pianolady32/Muddled Mawkishness

posted September 30, 2010 at 1:55 pm


Hmmm…’as according to the Law’? So I guess he’s advocating going back to the Law of the old testament? I’m pretty sure this guy’s in the number of folks that say we have been set free from the Law. I guess I could be wrong about that, though. (It never ceases to amaze me how all the ‘New Testament’ evangelical churches seem to cling to elements of the old testament law and reject things like Kosher foods. You either accept life by the Law or you accept that Christ set us free from the Law. Right?) His statements also make me feel that he might be happier if the women of his congregation came to church swathed in blankets. You know, so they didn’t draw attention to themselves by perhaps wearing the wrong type of clothing.



report abuse
 

    James

    posted September 30, 2010 at 2:21 pm


    No… they’re supposed to come to church wearing burqas so they don’t show cleavage and tramp stamps, thereby FORCING men to lust after them.

    I’m all for modesty (It’s a BIG deal in my house) but this guys approach (not to mention his exegesis) is just douchey.



    report abuse
     

      Michael

      posted September 30, 2010 at 10:49 pm


      I love how deeply eloquent you can be..yet still throw down words, such as douchey…hahaha…u rock dude



      report abuse
       

The Agnostic Pentecostal

posted September 30, 2010 at 2:31 pm


Niiiiiice. Now that’s what I call progress. (And I thought we had it bad in Pentecostalism when preachers called themselves prophets.)



report abuse
 

    Roscoe

    posted October 1, 2010 at 11:28 am


    Or introduce themselves as “The Apostle, John Doe” as if God himself knighted them in the holy of holies.



    report abuse
     

Jenn

posted September 30, 2010 at 2:38 pm


Some days I cannot watch these videos – today is one of them. I know that they are funny, but they are also incredibly sad and speak to the hurtful words/ideas/beliefs and the subsequent brokenness that is alienating people from the church.

I left the church I grew up in, the church of my ethnic heritage (I am Mennonite) and thankfully my father (who is divorced) has chosen to support me and come with me. The church has no issue with his divorce (nor should they – long story) but they do have a very vocal issue with women involved ministry or any work outside the home. As an secular university educated, independent living single seminary bound woman I felt alienated and shamed. I removed myself from a community that claims they love Christ because they can’t seem to love who He created. I don’t understand how we can hurt each other when we should be working towards community.



report abuse
 

Danny

posted September 30, 2010 at 2:50 pm


Oh how far we have not come.



report abuse
 

PJ

posted September 30, 2010 at 3:11 pm


ANSWER: Women should say “amen” in church only if they agree with what is being said. For instance, if the guy in the video was preaching on the godliness of a man’s unique holy right to draw attention to himself in church, I would say that women (and men) should NOT say, “amen” in church.



report abuse
 

Jesse

posted September 30, 2010 at 3:21 pm


One of the biggest problems with legalism is the constant need for new stuff to legislate. It’s like a spiritual Ponzi scheme.



report abuse
 

    Steven

    posted October 1, 2010 at 3:30 pm


    That’s hilarious and soooo true!



    report abuse
     

Danielle

posted September 30, 2010 at 3:30 pm


Is it wrong to say, “WTF”? My whole issue w/ this conversation line is that back then, women didn’t have formal education, were completely dominated by men and were disrupting church services w/ their comments due to their uneducation. Things have changed 2000 years later due to the fact that now, in our society, more women than men are educated. I believe it was Paul’s words to the society of that time in that society regarding this specific situation. I believe had women been educated in Paul’s day, this specific passage would not have needed to be written. IMO.



report abuse
 

    Michael

    posted September 30, 2010 at 10:56 pm


    very well said…and still today the Taliban executes women by placing them in the soccer field and shooting them in the back of the head publicly.The crime?? Teaching girls in their homes to read and write/ get an education. (i have actually seen a CNN undercover video of this exact event…it’s pure evil..in the name of God at that)



    report abuse
     

Kelley

posted September 30, 2010 at 6:28 pm


“the ladies teach the ladies and the women teach the women”

sir, can you explain to me the difference in a woman and a lady? thanks.



report abuse
 

    Stephanie

    posted September 30, 2010 at 8:05 pm


    I got a chuckle out of that as well.



    report abuse
     

Brad S

posted September 30, 2010 at 7:38 pm


I am not an inherently violent person, but when I see him and hear his voice I want to hit him with a ball peen hammer.



report abuse
 

Brian

posted September 30, 2010 at 8:08 pm


I grew up attending somewhat rural Churches of Christ, where women were not to speak during the service, they could only teach children, and were not supposed to wear pants to church, ever. I specifically recall one time a new couple had moved to the area and joined the congregation, and the woman wore pants to church. It was a big problem for some reason. It’s that type of legalistic bull that I experienced as a child, and as an adult, that helped push me away from church altogether. The petty, small-minded group-think situation does not work for me.



report abuse
 

Derrick

posted September 30, 2010 at 8:12 pm


It’s stuff like this that make it difficult to believe anything the Bible says…if some idiot can twist this stuff…what else have we twisted over centuries of power-hungry patriarchal idiocy?



report abuse
 

Jen

posted October 1, 2010 at 12:03 am


So now women aren’t even allowed to AGREE with a MAN out loud??

…. I got nuthin’.



report abuse
 

Charlie's Church of Christ

posted October 1, 2010 at 1:12 am


so what makes Sunday school not church? The fact they can’t get enough men to teach Sunday school so therefore they need the “ladies”?



report abuse
 

Phil Maylor

posted October 1, 2010 at 3:56 am


Obviously the context of any passage is crucial to understanding it, and this video just goes to prove the problem of reading one verse in isolation.

I thought I’d just share a commentary on this passage that I found useful to understanding it, which one of our pastors shared with us when he preached on this chapter earlier this year. http://www.enduringword.com/commentaries/4614.htm



report abuse
 

Leanne

posted October 1, 2010 at 6:35 am


i find the argument interesting tho. I took a course on women in church and society. There was a time women were denied the right to preach based on them being the weaker sex and easily deceived. Now the argument has changed the women are so strong they don’t need to speak up?
The same argument has been used for women in the work place or women staying at home. In one argument the women are weak and shouldn’t have to work outside the home and the next women are strong and need to be the strength in the home.
It all comes down to the church not trusting God to speak to women and women to listen. We all have unique gifts God has graced us with. Some to stay at home and some to preach and some to work and some to raise children and some to stay single, etc. I long for the day when the Church celebrates all human beings made in the image of God and able to hear from God in the midst of our brokenness.



report abuse
 

Matt Miles

posted October 1, 2010 at 9:29 am


This is exactly why I’ve risked pop-culture hell and haven’t watched a full episode of Mad Men. I saw clips of misogynistic comments from the show and knew it would make me too angry because I still know people in the church who talk like that and most likely mean it. But at least they don’t smoke.



report abuse
 

Phil Maylor

posted October 1, 2010 at 11:49 am


That said, at least he doesn’t make a big deal if ‘the women’ get ‘happy’ in church…



report abuse
 

connie

posted October 1, 2010 at 12:24 pm


holy crap.



report abuse
 

ttm

posted October 1, 2010 at 3:09 pm


So, women are allowed to get happy in this guy’s church as long as they do it silently. Women have a VERY, VERY important role in the church as long as they don’t speak. Ladies can ask him for guidance. (The ones who ask nonverbally probably get even better answers…) Women in this church are encouraged to perfect their “other means” of showing strength… cool! It’s not very often a man, especially a Christian man, tells us to exercise our “other means.” Usually we are told those are tools of the Devil.

If I were an aphonic woman who has perfected my “other means” to communicate, I’d sign up to be a member. Alas, I’m waaaaay too verbal and straightforward. Speaking of being verbal, it would be nice if this guy was “so strong he didn’t need to say something.”



report abuse
 

kristi

posted October 1, 2010 at 5:02 pm


Ladies dont make your husband use his pimp hand:D



report abuse
 

telee

posted October 4, 2010 at 8:24 am


I have some non-verbal communication I’d like to use with this guy during one of his services. Is that wrong?



report abuse
 

    ttm

    posted October 4, 2010 at 10:42 am


    I’ll sit with you in the front pew… :^)



    report abuse
     

Post a Comment

By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.



Previous Posts

More Blogs To Enjoy!!!
Thank you for visiting Jesus Needs New PR. This blog is no longer being updated. Please enjoy the archives. Here are some other blogs you may also enjoy: Red Letters with Tom Davis Recent prayer post on Prayables Most Recent Inspiration blog post Happy Reading!  

posted 10:19:20am Aug. 16, 2012 | read full post »

A Baptist mom meets the Black Eyed Peas…
Aw… my mom dances like that, too. A Baptist mom meets the Black Eyed Peas… is a post from: Jesus Needs New PR

posted 11:21:43am Dec. 30, 2011 | read full post »

Pat Robertson blasts SNL over Jesus, Tebow skit!
Hmm. SNL has poked fun with Jesus before… Chances are, Pat wouldn’t have said anything about this skit had it not been poking fun at Tebow… SNL has used “Jesus” in skits many many times. There seems to be a double standard among some Christians when the religious sati

posted 9:16:03am Dec. 22, 2011 | read full post »

Pirates, bubbles, and Jesus
Merry Christmas… Pirates, bubbles, and Jesus is a post from: Jesus Needs New PR

posted 9:02:42am Dec. 22, 2011 | read full post »

Bad nativity…
@gveitinger Bad nativity… is a post from: Jesus Needs New PR

posted 8:18:59pm Dec. 21, 2011 | read full post »




Report as Inappropriate

You are reporting this content because it violates the Terms of Service.

All reported content is logged for investigation.