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God's Politics


Gabriel Salguero: Do We Still Need Affirmative Action?

posted by God's Politics


Reasonable people can disagree about affirmative action. But it is important that we do not lose the sense of history, the compassion and largeness of vision that defined the best of the civil-rights era, which has given rise to so much of what is good about America today.
- Lee Bollinger, President of Columbia University, Newsweek Jan, 2003.

“Do We Still Need Affirmative Action?” was the cover story for the January 27, 2003, issue of Newsweek. It seems that this question will be the subject of dialogues and debates in schools, universities, places of employment, and other settings all over the U.S. in light of the recent Supreme Court decision concerning race and integration in Louisville and Seattle.
Many people are aware of some of the landmark cases. Still, I will name just a few: Plessy vs. Ferguson (1896), Brown vs. Board of Education (1954), University of California vs. Bakke (1978), Grutter vs. Bollinger (2003), and now Meredith vs. Jefferson County Board of Education and Parents Involved in Community Schools vs. Seattle School District (2007). The issue in these cases is the integration of school districts or the use of race as one factor for entrance into some institutions of higher education.
I remember taking an ethics methodology seminar in which one professor reminded us that you cannot do ethics without history. There are two major positions around this issue (with some nuance and complexity around each position). First, some feel that affirmative action policies have already done what they set out to do and that to continue to implement these policies would be, in their eyes, tantamount to “reverse discrimination.” Others feel that affirmative action is still very much needed to prevent re-segregation and exclusionary practices against minorities in higher education and employment, just to mention a couple places. In short, there is a fundamental difference of interpretation as to the benefits of affirmative action and its continued viability at the beginning of the 21st century. The 5 to 4 decision (with a strong dissenting opinion) in the highest court in the land is a manifestation of just how polarized these opinions are.
I have friends who have a strong position against affirmative action because they feel it has worked against them. While I understand this position, here’s what I say in response: Affirmative action policies are an attempt (however imperfect and flawed) to address a historical and still-prevalent gap in society. Due to the history of slavery, Jim Crow segregation, sexism, colonization, and economic disparities, large groups in our society have disproportionately been excluded from access to a good education, meaningful employment, and quality housing. The affirmative action policies are a way to intentionally provide access to a group that has been historically marginalized or excluded. While some progress has been made, much work still has to be done. So if you ask me, “Do We Still Need Affirmative Action?” I will reply, “Absolutely!” Can these policies be improved? Yes, but certainly we are not at the point of abolition, considering the problems solved. This would be a giant step backward and re-segregation would be one ghastly by-product.
As a person of faith who believes in the reign of God, integration is at the heart of my vision of God’s shalom. Neighborhoods and education and employment communities can benefit from diversity and exchange that historically has been missing. Still more important than this is to understand that turning back to the pre-Brown vs. Board of Education days is not to learn from history. Separate often means unequal. This is a question of justice. In the Bible, justice is often translated as righteousness. In the words of Dennis Hollinger, “There are multiple theories of distributive justice; merit, equality, and need.” The issue for our time and place is that we continue to honor merit and value equality without ignoring the blatant disparities that contribute to lack of education, employment, and housing for so many of our fellow human beings across racial, economic, and gender lines. Until the reign of God comes or we can do away with savage inequalities, affirmative action should be part of our national policy.

Rev. Gabriel Salguero is the pastor of the Lamb’s Church of the Nazarene in New York City, a Ph.D. candidate at Union Theological Seminary, and the director of the Hispanic Leadership Program at Princeton Theological Seminary. He is also a board member for Sojourners/Call to Renewal.



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jesse

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:03 pm


I think the issue of affirmative action is very important for Christians to consider, as the color-consciousness it promotes contributes to the racial segregation of churches we see around us today. This is one of many reasons why I oppose racial preferences.



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kevin s.

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:10 pm


Nobody referencin the recent Supreme Court decision ever goes into detail about the practice that initiated the legal effort, namely the mandatory bussing of students outside of their school district.
The losing side in this case failed to provide any empirical data demonstrating the diversity had a net positive effect on the educational experience of the affected students. It was therefore determined to be discriminatory.
Whatever affirmative action is endeavoring to do, it has not been proven to be fair or effective. The comment about turning back to the Brown v. Board of Education days is a red herring.
If Gabriel wants to have a discussion about the merits of this policy, he should make his case for mandatory bussing, race-based admissions, and the like. As it stands, all he is really saying is that “diversity can be a good thing” which is not in dispute.



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Wolverine

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:29 pm


Gabriel Salguero wrote:
Still more important than this is to understand that turning back to the pre-Brown vs. Board of Education days is not to learn from history.
Is anyone seriously proposing that Brown be overturned?
Wolverine



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Terri O

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:44 pm


What is important about affirmative action is that it provides a legislative protection to ensure that the history and gap that Gabriel refers to will be addressed with corrective action. It is one thing to agree with diversity, it is quite another to take action so injustice and segregation are not allowed to perpetuate throughout society. To paraphrase Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., “I may not be able to legislate your attitudes, but I can legislate your actions”. As an African-American woman minister, I am afraid that I won’t be able to trust good intentions until, as Gabriel says, the reign of God is here. We must have legislative protection to ensure equal opportunity and justice for all.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:48 pm


I think the issue of affirmative action is very important for Christians to consider, as the color-consciousness it promotes contributes to the racial segregation of churches we see around us today. This is one of many reasons why I oppose racial preferences.
Correction, Jesse — affirmative action acknowledges the color-consciousness that has always existed. You’re going to tell me that you don’t see someone’s color? Of course you do, and historically color has made a difference.
And if you think racism doesn’t affect the church, consider that nationwide only about 3 percent of churches are truly racially integrated; I attend one of those churches, and it wasn’t always that way. In fact, just a quarter-century ago I was told I didn’t belong in a certain evangelical Christian campus fellowship just because I was black, never mind that I fit in well on a theological or cultural level.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 3, 2007 at 4:59 pm


Is anyone seriously proposing that Brown be overturned?
I don’t know, but back in the 1990s a commentator on a local right-wing TV show denied that
Brown had anything to do with race.



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Payshun

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:11 pm


I would say yes.
p



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Anonymous

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:17 pm


I would add my yes to Payshun and Rick.
Wayne



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Don

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:33 pm


Reading between the lines of the Court’s recent decision, I would say that, yes, some want to roll Brown back.



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Kevin s.

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:33 pm


I have heard some say that Brown was poorly decided from a legal standpoint. I have been persuaded otherwise, and it is certainly not a mainstream position.
“And if you think racism doesn’t affect the church, consider that nationwide only about 3 percent of churches are truly racially integrated; I attend one of those churches, and it wasn’t always that way. ”
I think affirmative action contributes to racial polarization, and I don’t think anyone is making the argument that it created it. Neither have I seen any evidence that it has mitigated against it.
At any rate, affirmative action has very unpopular implcations (mandatory bussing and Title IX, for starters). Advocates of the practice ought to be glad that the egregious practices of the Seattle schools have been forbidden, lest they become a rallying cry to do away with the whole enterprise.



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wayne

posted July 3, 2007 at 5:34 pm


oops.
Unfortunately those of my paler skin relatives have seen fit to fly from the city with very few exceptions.
The fact that we now live in a more segregated way makes Affirmative Action hard to implement without such busing programs.
Also, now that for the first time in US history the majority of poor people live in the suburbs, the division of race is seen as a choice between public and private shools.
All those educating their children in the private school manner now defend themselves as non-racists, or even racially and culturally sensitive folk, and of course everybody has a “friend” or co-worker. They argue they are only looking out for their children’s best interests. In the end, the result is the same. We are perhaps the most racially divided non-racists to have ever lived.
Seperate is not equal, never was, never will be.
If we continue to live and worship in a seperated, segregated manner we might as well be supremecists, at least that would be honest.



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JimII

posted July 3, 2007 at 6:10 pm


From Jesse:
I think the issue of affirmative action is very important for Christians to consider, as the color-consciousness it promotes contributes to the racial segregation of churches we see around us today. This is one of many reasons why I oppose racial preferences.
You cannot know anything about an individual based on his or her race, color, socio-economic status, gender, sexual orientation, etc. It is unfair to make assumptions about individuals within a group made up of these demographics.
That said, it is impossible to address the major social divides in our country without recognizing the different experiences members of these groups have.
For example, a particular woman may have no interest in having children, but nonetheless, company policies that are hostile toward families will have a greater negative impact on women.
A particular poor student may have access to a large vocabulary at home and lots of exposure to reading, but nonetheless, deteriorating public schools have a greater impact on the poor children in those schools.
Ignoring race as a public policy will not eliminate racism. If you could suddenly make everyone in the world ignore race, then we could just deal with poverty, but that is not what reversing affirmative action does. It ignores race as a public policy, while race continues to have a dramatic impact on the members of that race.
Because we are still generations away from race being irrelevant to individuals in our society, our public policy must address disparities that result from it and take action to correct the disparities.
You do not correct the course of a ship by putting you rudder amidships.



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kevin s.

posted July 3, 2007 at 6:20 pm


“Unfortunately those of my paler skin relatives have seen fit to fly from the city with very few exceptions.”
Programs like mandatory bussing are unlikley to ameliorate the situation. Who wants to deal with that hassle?
“The fact that we now live in a more segregated way makes Affirmative Action hard to implement without such busing programs.”
Then I would argue that we should find a non-Affirmative Action solution.
“Also, now that for the first time in US history the majority of poor people live in the suburbs, the division of race is seen as a choice between public and private shools.”
There are plenty of white kids going to public schools. But again, mandatory bussing is going to exacerbate the problem.
“All those educating their children in the private school manner now defend themselves as non-racists, or even racially and culturally sensitive folk,”
Just ask the (very liberal) mayor of Minneapolis, who sends his kids to private school while no doubt supporting the affirmative action policies you describe. We’ll probably home school regardless of school district, but this is more likely an educational quality decision.
“and of course everybody has a “friend” or co-worker. They argue they are only looking out for their children’s best interests.”
Which they are. People don’t make every single decision along racial lines. I would have no problem sending my kid to a racially diverse school, so long as it doesn’t suck.
“Seperate is not equal, never was, never will be.
If we continue to live and worship in a seperated, segregated manner we might as well be supremecists, at least that would be honest.”
You pretend here that other ethnic groups do not isolate themselves. I can assure you that the Hispanic nieghborhoods, churches and schools cropping up in Minneapolis are not borne of exclusion by whites.



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kevin s.

posted July 3, 2007 at 6:27 pm


“Because we are still generations away from race being irrelevant to individuals in our society, our public policy must address disparities that result from it and take action to correct the disparities.”
Why?
Will race ever be irrelevant?
How does AA make it less relevant?



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JimII

posted July 3, 2007 at 6:55 pm


Affirmative action is taking a positive action to address historic discrepancies. So, any solution to race disparity–bussing, quotas, weighting on applications, focussed training, etc.–is affirmative action.
Integrated schools make things better because they provide opportunity for children from minorities groups or poor families and because they allow children from the majority (or plurality) groups and wealthy families to know each other.
My broad point is this: We are not in a place where we can just pretend race does not impact our society. The reason we can’t do that is that it is not true.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 3, 2007 at 7:00 pm


Nothing wrong with Affirmative Action in regards to reaching out to people , its the actual use of skin color to prefer employment over another that is morally wrong .



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Payshun

posted July 3, 2007 at 7:16 pm


Why?
Will race ever be irrelevant?
How does AA make it less relevant?
Me:
Because our country has been racistly concieved from it’s inception and despite the fact that some want to live in a color blind society (white) there are plenty of people that make really stupid comments and don’t know how racist they really are.
I want race to be irrelevant in evaluating my character but very relevant in loving my culture. I am a black man and my culture (despite all the current brokeness) is beautiful. So I hope that people will learn to honor the culture and beauty that comes w/ this social construction while also just looking at me as a human being. I hope that helps.
Your goal is irrelevance, my goal is justice. So the question is from my standpoint not honest.
p



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 3, 2007 at 7:24 pm


I think affirmative action contributes to racial polarization, and I don’t think anyone is making the argument that it created it. Neither have I seen any evidence that it has mitigated against it.
I used to think the same way until a few years ago. If you look at things from a broader persepective, the reality was that women and racial minorities were never part of the “network.”
This was brought home to me with the then-teenage son of a white single suburban mom I dated some years ago. We were watching a news story on the building of the new baseball stadium, specifically that it had failed to meet its minority contracting goals, and he looked dead at me and said, “Why can’t they just hire the best people?” (Needless to say, he didn’t want to know the answer, which I knew.) Meanwhile, this kid who barely graduated high school was working at several fast-food joints, often leaving one job after a few weeks to go to another. How did he get those jobs with such history? “I know someone.”
The reality even now is that, even with affirmative action programs, if you’re white you still have the best chance statistically of getting the job or promotion. Why? Because you would be more likely to have an “in” with the people who make those decisions. Now, some folks truly believe that they are entitled to certain situations and resent losing out to whom they feel are “lesser-qualified” people. But as my brother said several years ago, “How many times was he/she passed over?” The critics were silent when they thought of that.



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Tyler Watson

posted July 3, 2007 at 7:30 pm


I will preface my comments with a disclaimer. I am a white male, so I do not know what it is like to be discriminated against per se. But, I do know what it is like to not have advantages that are afforded to the more fortunate. I was a ward of the state growing up and have lived in poverty.
So, here is my question: Why should my hispanic best friend, who’s dad is a doctor and mother a school administrator, be given preference to university admissions over me? Education was important in his home, he was in a loving family, and never experience want of any kind. I did not have a home, and I have experienced more than one hungry night. How is this fair or just?
Wouldn’t a better alternative to the current system of affirmative action focus on economic and educational background instead of race? Or do the white kids in trailer parks not desirve a helping hand like black kids in the inner-city?



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Rick B

posted July 3, 2007 at 7:39 pm


some thoughts ! !
1st of all the ‘problem’ of segregation was never really the school’s problem to solve…it was just easier to put it on the school than to solve it in the ‘real world’ of work ……..
2nd – hearing all the ‘Christian’ oriented outspoken people keep talking about ‘race, racism, ad nauseum’ reminds me constantly of how so many ‘talk the talk, but DO NOT walk the walk’ of their beliefs. If there was ONE GOD and he created human kind in his image, then there is now, always has been and always will be ONE RACE …. HUMAN ! ! ! Skin color and all the other physiognamy bull is just that! Now, walk the walk of being your brother’s keeper and love your neighbor. Yeah .. I know it sound simplistic, but that’s how HE said to do it!



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jerry

posted July 3, 2007 at 8:20 pm


wayne; some of my darker skin relatives are also fleeing to burbs. and they are sending their children to private schools in droves. no? what black don’t seem to get is their racism is obvious by their insistance in being favored by the government. who amoung us likes to have the government favor one person over another? kinda makes you mad doesn’t it? apply this to all of our society and you get bad feelings about favored people. especially if it costs you your job or school admitance. so, brown was okay as it stood, but over the years the special rights forced upon our society by affirmative action has aggrevated racial issues. the current influx of immigrants will only raise the conflict higher.
payshun, so some whites don’t honor your culture…so what? like some blacks don’t like my culture. big deal. grow up and stop trying to make everyone the same. we may be created equal but after that we need to get a life and it ain’t gonna be exactly what we want or think we should get. affirmative action aggrevates integration. you may get the job because of AA but the guy/gal who got bumped is gonna be angry, eh?
right on tyler watson. come to tucson/arizona and see how white folks scrap for jobs and service, often competing with favored mexicans. do you speak spanish? sorry.
the brown decision was great for getting the country on the right track in education. all the rest of the legislative attempts to favor one race or minority group over another have caused lots of bad feelings on all sides. wait til the tide turns, as in california and arizona….then listen to the cries.



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kevin s.

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:23 pm


“Integrated schools make things better because they provide opportunity for children from minorities groups or poor families and because they allow children from the majority (or plurality) groups and wealthy families to know each other.”
Doesn’t school choice work toward the same standard? Either way, going to school with someone doesn’t mean you get to know them. Shall we have the government pick and choose who our children play with? Using your logic, this would be a “positive action”.
“Your goal is irrelevance, my goal is justice. So the question is from my standpoint not honest.”
I never said this.
” Meanwhile, this kid who barely graduated high school was working at several fast-food joints, often leaving one job after a few weeks to go to another. How did he get those jobs with such history? “I know someone.”
This is so profoundly at odds with your point that I don’t even know where to start.
“Now, some folks truly believe that they are entitled to certain situations and resent losing out to whom they feel are “lesser-qualified” people.”
At Pomona, being a racial minority (except Asian, of course) is the equivalent of having an SAT score that is 200 points higher. People are not in or our of the network based on race, but rather economic status. I can assure you that I did not earn my degree, and have never held a job, by being in with anyone. I had no connections.
So yeah, I have no interest in watching an empirically lesser qualified candidate take a job from me. No interest whatsoever.
And the Constitution backs me up on this, whether your ideology does or not.



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Anonymous

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:24 pm


Kevin
“You pretend here that other ethnic groups do not isolate themselves. I can assure you that the Hispanic nieghborhoods, churches and schools cropping up in Minneapolis are not borne of exclusion by whites.”
I do not pretend anything. I said as long as “we”, (that would be humans Kevin), live seperate…
Are you just pretending all those Hispanics settled down in the choicest part of Minneapolis so they could avoid white people?
“wait til the tide turns, as in california and arizona….then listen to the cries.”
Believe me I hear the cries! I believe God does too. What I wonder is, can we hear God?



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:25 pm


Wouldn’t a better alternative to the current system of affirmative action focus on economic and educational background instead of race? Or do the white kids in trailer parks not desirve a helping hand like black kids in the inner-city?
To answer your question, I offer another anecdote.
Over two decades ago I befriended a white woman, then a freshman at a local women’s college. She was well-groomed, articulate and a super-bright student and on scholarship. She fit in quite well with the whole campus atmosphere. However, the next year I got to meet her family, and only then did I learn that she came from what one might call “trailer trash” and was the only member of her family to attend college. Years later she took a diversity seminar, and though she’s quite liberal ideologically she said it opened her eyes as to how racist she actually was. (I already knew, thanks to a comment she made to me once.)
I learned that in a situation like that you can hide your economic status. You can hide your family. You can hide your European-based ethnic background. But, no matter how well you think you fit in, you can never, ever, hide your race if it’s not European, which means judgments will be made about you. Because of that she was more accepted in certain circles than I was.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:33 pm


This is so profoundly at odds with your point that I don’t even know where to start.
My point was that, even if he were qualified but especially given his work history and lack of references, his qualifications had nothing to do with how he got jobs. The idea that blacks have to be “qualified” smacks of resentment because many, many unqualified whites over the years have received jobs or promotions based only on connections. Why did that change all of a sudden?
So yeah, I have no interest in watching an empirically lesser qualified candidate take a job from me. No interest whatsoever.
Welcome to the real world, where the best person doesn’t always get the job — minorities have always understood that. I would hope for you then that you would work for justice for everyone, but based on your previous posts that’s not even on your radar screen.



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Payshun

posted July 3, 2007 at 10:45 pm


You said:
what black don’t seem to get is their racism is obvious by their insistance in being favored by the government.
Please explain that one. How can black people be favored by a government that saw them as only 3/5′ths of a person for over two centuries? Just asking.
You said:
who amoung us likes to have the government favor one person over another? kinda makes you mad doesn’t it?
Me:
I am gonna be really nice here and pretend you are not blind. Our government and all governments the world over favor someone. Please don’t be naive and think that everything has been an equall playing field. If that’s the case then it makes you look at best clueless and at worse stupid.
You:
apply this to all of our society and you get bad feelings about favored people. especially if it costs you your job or school admitance. so, brown was okay as it stood, but over the years the special rights forced upon our society by affirmative action has aggrevated racial issues.
Me:
Another nifty myth. AA made things worse. As if it were fine in the first place. I will remember that the next time someone calls me a nigger, tells me a racist joke at work or threatens to kill me because i am black. You know what aggrevates racial tension? White people not wanting to share power, resources or equal treatment before the law. As long as my people go along w/ that then everything is fine. But the minute we don’t we have a problem. I honestly do think it’s time for more of us to be a problem. It’s the only way injustice can be stopped.
You:
the current influx of immigrants will only raise the conflict higher.
Me:
No scared white people that feel they are loosing their jobs, their lives and everything else will only raise the conflict higher. You know that’s true. If anything that’s what this conflict is really about anyway.
You:
payshun, so some whites don’t honor your culture…so what? like some blacks don’t like my culture. big deal. grow up and stop trying to make everyone the same.
Me:
You have got to be brighter than that. My whole response was trying to raise the standard of respect for cultures that are disrespected and different. Please explain how I am trying to make everything the same. You may not care. It may not be a “big deal” to you. That’s sad because you will never have a deeper understanding of God’s grace and love for culture and his love for different groups. He thinks that honoring the differences between cultures are important. If you are not going to write an intelligent response then please don’t comment.
p



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Wolverine

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:10 pm


To those who expressed the belief that there was a serious push to roll back Brown v. Board of Education, would anyone care to elaborate on that? Do you have any evidence?
Wolverine



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Anonymous

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:18 pm


That’s sad because you will never have a deeper understanding of God’s grace and love for culture and his love for different groups.
Well your right about that , we are all different , God is an artist .
“He thinks that honoring the differences between cultures are important. If you are not going to write an intelligent response then please don’t comment.
p”
Well lets see , perhaps a little more grace on your part could open someones eyes , it is obvious you are so much better then the rest of us . With a little of that love and grace you received from the Lord , perhaps you should consider sharing it with others , otherwise why don’t you just NOT BOTHER TO COMMENT with us .



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wayne

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:25 pm


Wolverine there has been a lot of talk about ending or rolling back Brown v Board. I am sure you could find it yourself.
Try also looking up Kozol’s books on the subject of school resegregation. He also has some great articles on this subject.
There is plenty to read and it isn’t hard to find at all. I found it and I am a computer illiterate, which is why I do not just paste or glue or liquid nail, one of those dohickey things in here for you to click on.



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Payshun

posted July 3, 2007 at 11:46 pm


You said:
p”
Well lets see , perhaps a little more grace on your part could open someones eyes , it is obvious you are so much better then the rest of us . With a little of that love and grace you received from the Lord , perhaps you should consider sharing it with others , otherwise why don’t you just NOT BOTHER TO COMMENT with us .
Me:
You are right. I could be more gracious. I just don’t know how to be when dealing w/ really dumb comments. Oh and as for opening someone’s eyes that’s a grace I really don’t need to always share. It’s not my job. I don’t want to practice the same racism I am trying to kill. Sorry. Since you seem to be so gracious and full of love yourself you can do it for me.
p



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Anonymous

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:19 am


“Wolverine there has been a lot of talk about ending or rolling back Brown v Board. I am sure you could find it yourself.”
I have not been able to find anything either. I’m sure something exists. Is there a prominent group arguing for the repeal of Brown v. Board?



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 4, 2007 at 5:29 am


Always has bewildered me that folks who admit that the schools their children are terrible do not see anything wrong with forcing other children to attend them based on their race .
I just don’t get it . That is racism . Its not just about money , some of the most dollars per pupil are spent on failing schools .
One thing it will take to handle these problems are leaders , educators and administrators dedicated to children not to educational systems . Much more parental involvement . Which is and has always been the most important .
Government sponsored Pre School and DayCare are prime examples of the liberal socialists trying to solve a problems without God and without the prime educators , the parents .



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Anonymous

posted July 4, 2007 at 5:37 am


P says
“It’s not my job. I don’t want to practice the same racism I am trying to kill.”
Oh , I guess that makes sense when you make judgements and laws for “my people” based on race . That is indeed what a racist does or its a dumb comment . Either one . your the problem , not the solution .
“As long as my people go along w/ that then everything is fine. But the minute we don’t we have a problem. I honestly do think it’s time for more of us to be a problem. It’s the only way injustice can be stopped.”



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Jerseykid

posted July 4, 2007 at 7:26 am


So yeah, I have no interest in watching an empirically lesser qualified candidate take a job from me. No interest whatsoever. And the Constitution backs me up on this, whether your ideology does or not. Posted by: kevin s.
You have concisely stated where you are coming from on this. Sadly enough, you ignore systemic injustices that were heaped on minorities in the past and that continue to this day. As for the constitution backing you up, it probably will back you up in the way you wish as many fine precedent decisions are whittled away by Bush appointees. When you get the result of seething, disenfranchised minority groups, I doubt you’ll be happy.



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jesse

posted July 4, 2007 at 8:42 am


payshun,
you made the statement about “black culture”, but i think it’s very tricky to tie culture to the color of one’s skin. for example, black americans who were raised in africa have a very different culture from anything seen in the US. the truth is that there is no culture that is uniquely tied to any specific skin color. the belief that color of skin = culture is what leads people to segregate themselves (and others to avoid them). that is generally the attitude behind most of the racial segregation in society today. a black person sees a white person and thinks they don’t have anything in common with them. the same thing occurs for whites and other ethnicities, of course.
when this skin color = culture connection is broken, you will see society more racially integrated, which is a goal every church should be striving for.



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Anonymous

posted July 4, 2007 at 8:54 am


“Wolverine there has been a lot of talk about ending or rolling back Brown v Board. I am sure you could find it yourself.
I have not been able to find anything either. I’m sure something exists. Is there a prominent group arguing for the repeal of Brown v. Board?”
Okay for all of you who can’t seem to find anything on this subject
Google “resegregation of public schools”
I think the prominent group would be us WASP’s, White Anglo Scary People



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jerry

posted July 4, 2007 at 9:29 am


payshun, i have respect for all cultures but i don’t have to embrace them. take you for instance, i can respect you and read your stuff, but i don’t have to agree with you or live next to you or go to school with you just so you will be more equal, somehow.
the problem is that you want the government to make things fairer, equal justice doesn’t mean equal. you don’t seem to have any feel for human nature. God, the artist, did. gave us free will, a brain, feelings, skin color. the world is full of injustice. in fact i have to look hard to find equal justice. and as long as people like you think they are being treated unjustly, not getting what they think they should get, we will have social conflicts. in this country white males are the source of all social problems. an easy target for blacks, women, and any other minority that wants special treatment, thats racisim. you are trying to make everything the same by writing special laws based on race. God can change people not the government.
so next time someone calls me honkey, whitey, flips me off, tells a norwegian joke or a jewish joke and threatens me because i’m in the wrong neighborhood, i’ll remember your understanding and love of me and my culture.
if you can’t see the world as it is please don’t comment.
read the declaration of independence, stop looking for government to help you, and enjoy this great country that God has blessed.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 4, 2007 at 9:34 am


Always has bewildered me that folks who admit that the schools their children are terrible do not see anything wrong with forcing other children to attend them based on their race.
It’s very simple — clout. When people with more money, power etc. get involved that means the system will immediately improve, because they get more involved. If a school with white children is considered failing it will somehow get the resources it needs to fix things.
the belief that color of skin = culture is what leads people to segregate themselves (and others to avoid them). that is generally the attitude behind most of the racial segregation in society today. a black person sees a white person and thinks they don’t have anything in common with them. the same thing occurs for whites and other ethnicities, of course.
Jesse, did you read my post about what happened to me in that campus fellowship? My culture had nothing to do with it, especially since whites of all ethnic and cultural backgrounds were welcome without controversy (and especially since I personally was culturally compatible with that group). No, the issue is, and always will be, race, and it’s time that we’re honest about it.
It is that reality that causes differences in outlook, especially politically. For example, 90 percent of African-Americans vote Democratic, and the reason for that is that the political descendents of the people who opposed the civil-rights movement now run the Republican Party. Thus, black conservatives have virtually no pull among blacks.



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wayne

posted July 4, 2007 at 9:41 am


Wow Jerry!
That is mighty white, (culturally speaking) of you.
What great advice Payshun!
Just enjoy what God has given you.
The answer to racism is for all African Americans to “see the world as it is” and “just enjoy” what God has given them!? sheesh!
I guess that is an example of white “color blindness” If I was you Payshun “I be hearin the Massah tellin me how I should be a happy boy”
Seriously Payshun, I am very sorry you had to read that.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 4, 2007 at 9:47 am


the problem is that you want the government to make things fairer, equal justice doesn’t mean equal. you don’t seem to have any feel for human nature. God, the artist, did. gave us free will, a brain, feelings, skin color. the world is full of injustice. in fact i have to look hard to find equal justice. and as long as people like you think they are being treated unjustly, not getting what they think they should get, we will have social conflicts. in this country white males are the source of all social problems. an easy target for blacks, women, and any other minority that wants special treatment, thats racisim. you are trying to make everything the same by writing special laws based on race. God can change people not the government.
Then kindly explain such people as Martin Luther King Jr. and Nelson Mandela.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 4, 2007 at 10:33 am


If a school with white children is considered failing it will somehow get the resources it needs to fix things.
What a crock , anyone who has been involved in public education knows that when white kids that bused to a failing school , that school continues to fail . Seattle Schools are a prime example . Three African American Organizations along with Bill Gates promoted School Charters , those folks who you claim tried to stop Civil Rights also supported it , the racist democrats from Reconstruction Days made sure that Charter Failed . Thats right, give the man an acre and a mule , thats all he needs . Vote for me and I will set you free.
You can have your opinion , based on your own prejudices , but that does not change the facts , Your crying over past injustices for your God Given race give you no excuse to promote your racism in return .
Your descriptions of Conservative Christians , especially white christians make you somehow better then the KKK ? Someone owes you an opinion that means it more important because your race is different . Maybe one could have insight , but because you are not agreed with gives you no superior or grand self righteous view of I am victim let me roar .
How sad .



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aaron

posted July 4, 2007 at 10:35 am


Here in Raleigh they were doing forced integration. A friend of mine couldn’t even have her kids go to the same elementary school (they’re on grade apart) because of the way the school system f’ed it up. (This meant more driving for her and headaches with scheduling). The kids, who are first and second graders, complained they didn’t like the schools because all the kids spoke spanish and they didn’t feel included. Woohoo, great job there forcing diversity on children who can’t understand you retards!



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Mick

posted July 4, 2007 at 11:08 am


Yep this explains some of the anti Christian views expressed here . The word is getting out ,
Unfounded Loyalty is a must read .
Wayne Perryman
– For 150 years blacks were victims of terrorist attacks by the Democrats and their Klan supporters, including lynchings, beatings, rapes, and mutilations.
– On the issue of slavery, the Democrats literally gave their lives to expand it; the Republicans gave their lives to ban it.
– Many believed the Democrats had a change of heart and fell in love with blacks. To the contrary, history reveals the Democrats didn’t fall in love with black folks, they fell in love with the black vote knowing this would be their ticket into the White House.
He continues, “In my research, which covers the period from 1832 to 2002, I found two familiar strains running through the cultural development of the American Black: the positive and powerful role of Christianity and the little known and debilitating role of the Democrats — from slavery through the Clinton Administration. There is also a critical analysis of our current black leadership.”
In the first few chapters, he writes of how the decline of spirituality affected Blacks. He writes, “Our faith in God has always been the inspiring factor that empowered many of our people to do great things. When it came to dealing with problems, many of our famous black historical figures depended on the providence of God rather than on the promises of government.” He cites examples such as Booker T. Washington, George Washington Carver, Sojourner Truth, Harriet Tubman, Frederick Douglass, Nat Turner, and Benjamin Banneker.
Perryman also says of African Americans, “Many no longer put their faith in God, instead they put their faith in government and those representing government. The shift from God to government has resulted in behavior unheard of and problems unprecedented.” Examples of those problems he cites are: More homeless than ever before. More rat-and roach-infested government housing. Fewer mothers who are full-time homemakers. More latchkey children home alone. More violence in schools. More couples living together out of wedlock. More single mothers who have never been married. More black men unemployed than ever before. More black men in prison. More abortions among black women. More drugs in the black community. More top-40 music degrading black women and glorifying sex and violence. More covert practices of racial discrimination. More black on black crime and the list goes on.
Perryman does an excellent job of detailing aspects of Black history that are not generally known. There is a belief in the African American community that the Republican Party, which was started in 1854 to abolish slavery, was the party of the slave masters and the Democratic Party is the party of the “Great Emancipators.” I have personally talked to African Americans who believed that there were Republican slave owners. I also know of people who believe that Abraham Lincoln was a Democrat. Obviously, they were not aware of actual history. Perryman writes, “In 1929, one year after President Herbert Hoover took office with a promise to ‘put a chicken in every pot,’ the stock market crashed, our nation went into a deep depression, and the Republicans knew they were in trouble. This was the perfect opportunity for the Democrats to take the White House, but they needed more than the Depression; they needed the black vote… Prior to this time from 1866 to 1928, blacks had voted exclusively for the Republican ticket. Frustrated with the economy as well as with the Republican Party, the (black) newspapers used their powerful voice to urge black voters to break tradition and vote Democrat. John Hope Franklin said, ‘The break was neither clean nor complete, however, for there were those who could not be persuaded to support the party that, after all, was the party of the Ku Klux Klan and other bigots.’”
Perryman is critical of the Democratic Party’s lack of acknowledgement of its racist history of supporting slavery, Jim Crow, Black Codes, racial violence, etc. and its seeming refusal to apologize to African Americans for that history. He details in Chapter Seven: “The Democrats’ Racist Past But No Formal Apology,” the history of the Ku Klux Klan formed, in 1866, as a “terrorist” organization in response to the Republicans passing laws and forming programs to assist Blacks. “The Democrats became very angry and resentful…the Democrats became the ‘Daddy’ of the Ku Klux Klan.” He quotes Professor Howard O. Lindsey, author of A History of Black Americans: “Blacks and sympathetic whites were attacked and threatened. African Americans were discouraged from seeking elected office and even from trying to vote. Any and all means were used from threats to violence to outright murder.”
Perryman continues, “Today, a number of Democrats proudly boast about their civil rights accomplishments of the sixties, mainly the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. However, after reviewing all the evidence, one must conclude that had the Democrats passed these same types of laws in 1864, their legislative efforts in 1964 would not have been necessary. From 1864 and beyond, Democrats proudly legislated Black Codes, Jim Crow laws, and a multitude of other local laws to disenfranchise blacks. These laws were specifically designed to hurt blacks; they passed no laws to help blacks. The underlying truth is this: After two hundred years of racist practices, the Democrats didn’t pass laws and develop the programs (in the sixties) because they had a change of heart and fell in love with black folks. They did it because they fell in love with the black vote…Going after the black vote wasn’t entirely new for the Democrats. History reveals that since 1870, the Democrats have always gone after the black vote. From 1870 to 1930, the party used fraud, whippings, lynching, murder, intimidation, and mutilation to get their vote. In the 1930’s and 1960’s they switched from violence and intimidation to manipulation and voter’s registration. In their quest to obtain the black vote, Democrats conveniently ignored those portions of history that documented their inhumane treatment of African Americans.”
Perryman does not suggest that the Republicans of the past were “head over heels in love with blacks.” He says that Republican presidents such as Lincoln, Theodore Roosevelt, and Taft felt that “blacks were inferior to them.” He says that despite their attitudes of superiority, Republicans as a whole refused to accept the inhumane treatment that blacks were forced to endure at the hands of those who represented the Democratic Party.
Perryman also says, “The injustices that we faced produced pain, the pain produced problems, and the problems produced two types of African Americans: those who put their faith in God and made a difference, and those who simply ignored God and made excuses. Blacks who made a difference, trusted God, turned their stumbling blocks into stepping stones, and built a stairway to success. Others who simply made excuses did not see the blocks as stepping stones, but as obstacles to their future. Thus many became angry, bitter, and self-abusive. Instead of viewing the blocks as a means that could take them from the Valley of Despair to the Plateaus of Prosperity, they viewed them as worthless materials and used them to build a Monument of Excuses — excuses that eventually destroyed their families, their homes, their communities, their values, and eventually themselves.”
Unfounded Loyalty is available on Amazon.com.



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Anonymous

posted July 4, 2007 at 11:21 am


Since the founding of the nation, and even before we’ve had “special” laws that were based on race and benefited the majority.
It is not a new thing just an attempt at the opposite effect.
Looking at history I don’think any of us have a complaint when we speak of these relativly new “special” laws. If it were true that for the last 43 years these Affirmative Action laws had turned African Americans into Bill Gates’, maybe there would be an argument for doing away with AA. As for all the anecdotes about how these laws have negatively affected white folk at times, I’m sorry, I don’t see it.
Busing may not be the answer but doing away with AA isn’t the answer either.
It isn’t like White America isn’t finding ways around Affirmative Action laws as it is.
Many states use “Magnet programs” instead of busing. These Magnets are set up so that they have to have the opposite Demographic composition as the school in which they are placed.
So if a school is 85% minority, the Magnet must be 85% white, supposedly bringing about “Racial Diversity”. What happens is the best education focus magnets with AP classes are then put in the schools where white kids are guaranteed to be the most highly represented group, and in the name of Affirmative Action White kids still get the best education.
My father always taught me that if I did the right thing and found it cost me, I was to still do the right thing. He would also never let me complain about it.



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Wolverine

posted July 4, 2007 at 11:36 am


Looking over the history that Mick cited, I think Wayne Perryman overstates things dramatically. I’m quite certain that the Democratic party and the left in general were motivated by a genuine concern for black americans when they advocated civil rights laws in the sixties. I also think that Barry Goldwate made a huge mistake when he opposed civil rights legislation while running for President in 1964.
But the history of the sixties is more complicated than the usual Manichean narrative laid out by the civil rights establishment today. There were a lot of conservative Republicans like Everett Dirksen who supported civil rights, while southern Democrats were mostly opposed.
The bottom line is: situations change, and political parties change. British Prime Minister Benjamin Disraeli put it quite well when he said that Britain had no permanent allies or permanent enemies, only permanent interests. I humbly suggest that Black Americans should adopt a similar approach.
Wolverine



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:14 pm


You said:
Oh , I guess that makes sense when you make judgements and laws for “my people” based on race . That is indeed what a racist does or its a dumb comment . Either one . your the problem , not the solution .
Me:
Do you have any idea what racism means? The definition. Here you are throwing out big words w/o a definition and you know what the only person that looks ignorant here is you.
Racism:
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one’s own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.
Sorry but Affirmative Action does not even come close to any of those definitions. No where have I claimed that my people are superior or inferior to yours. That’s because we are equal.
Anywho you can sit here and say I am the problem when you sit on your butt and don’t face injustice. You have done next to nothing to fix any of the lingering problems our country faces when it comes to race. I have dedicated my life to solving this problem while you will continue to keep your head in the sand and continue to deny there is one. If anything you and the people that think like you, believe like you and are blind like you are the real problem and the reason why things are not better now. 40 years ago people believed like you and did next to nothing to solve the problems facing our great nation. YOu are one of those so quite honestly one small suggestion Get off the pot or piss because you are slowing down progress. Please go live in your lilly white world and continue to keep your head in the sand.
p



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:25 pm


Jesse said:
you made the statement about “black culture”, but i think it’s very tricky to tie culture to the color of one’s skin. for example, black americans who were raised in africa have a very different culture from anything seen in the US. the truth is that there is no culture that is uniquely tied to any specific skin color. the belief that color of skin = culture is what leads people to segregate themselves (and others to avoid them). that is generally the attitude behind most of the racial segregation in society today. a black person sees a white person and thinks they don’t have anything in common with them. the same thing occurs for whites and other ethnicities, of course.
when this skin color = culture connection is broken, you will see society more racially integrated, which is a goal every church should be striving for.
Me:
I agree w/ you. Which is why my comments were geared at American black people here in the states. You can’t ignore the lingering cultural development from race because that says that it doesn’t exist. It does. If you doubt that go visit a black church and stay there for six months. See if their isn’t a culture there built off of the shared strength, suffering and empowerment that comes from being denigrated by something as silly as skin pigmentation.
My goal is not simply integration. That’s too small a thing. I am looking for a few brave people that want to see God’s love while fighting to make sure justice happens for the disenfranchised. That’s my goal.
p



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:37 pm


Mick and Wolverine — The fact remains that Barry Goldwater, or perhaps more accurately the modern conservatives who pushed him forward, induced racist Southern Democrats into the Republican Party beginning in the 1960s and that Ronald Reagan, who while governor of California in those days slammed Martin Luther King Jr. upon his assassination, completed the process. To say that the Ku Klux Klan was primarily a Democratic organization doesn’t tell the whole story, and in fact a KKK Grand Dragon in Georgia openly endorsed Reagan in 1980, saying that “the Republican platform could have been written by a Klansman.” My comment about blacks voting against conservatives thus stands.
As for education, 25 years ago a federal judge here forced five suburban school districts — one poor and black and the others richer and white — to merge, and that caused all kinds of consternation. But you know what? Today the merged district, where I live now, has become a model for tolerance and reconciliation, with black children getting opportunities they didn’t have before, plus the high school football team has occasionally been nationally ranked.



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:48 pm


You said:
the problem is that you want the government to make things fairer, equal justice doesn’t mean equal.
Me:
Youre right. Considering the role of history in this country that argument has been batted around for a few hundred years. That line of thinking is what helped cause the racism, genocide, slavery, Jim Crowism and lingering racsim we are facing today.
You:
you don’t seem to have any feel for human nature.
Me:
Umm I am not that naive. I have a very strong feeling for human nature and how perverse and disgusting it really is. That’s why there should be universal things that stop it from hurting other people. For some odd reason you see that as racism but let’s keep going.
You:
God, the artist, did. gave us free will, a brain, feelings, skin color.
Me:
God did not give us free will, that’s a myth perpetrated by people that assume we have the power to make choices other than the main two. We can make choices between sinning or not. But I would not call that free will would you?
Those are all great and beautiful gifts from God but they are broken.
You said:
the world is full of injustice. in fact i have to look hard to find equal justice. and as long as people like you think they are being treated unjustly, not getting what they think they should get, we will have social conflicts. in this country white males are the source of all social problems.
Me:
The source of all social problems. Not hardly, the source of some social problems yes. But personal responsibility has to come in there somewhere right? We are all responsible for the choices we make but how we treat others determines what those choices are and how and where we can choose them.
You:
an easy target for blacks, women, and any other minority that wants special treatment, thats racisim. you are trying to make everything the same by writing special laws based on race. God can change people not the government.
Me:
Try special protection. White men have had protections from the local,state and federal government for centuries. they could lynch black men w/ impunity (up until 40 years ago,) rape black women w/o any consequences, treat white women like crap and cheat on them because they were the heads of the households. I could keep going here for a while. Now for the first time in this country’s history that’s being challenged and now your privelege is being exposed for what it is. Instead of learning to now be the servant and to protect the rights of the marginalized you want to continue a system that continues to reward white men for achieving so much at the expense of others.
You:
so next time someone calls me honkey, whitey, flips me off, tells a norwegian joke or a jewish joke and threatens me because i’m in the wrong neighborhood, i’ll remember your understanding and love of me and my culture.
Me:
I don’t think you even begin to understand what my understanding is.
Actually if I heard a black man say what they said against you or yours I would say something and stand up for you because no one deserves to be treated like that. The question is would you do that for me?
Jerry,
Now you are making some really dumb assumptions.
like:
if you can’t see the world as it is please don’t comment. read the declaration of independence, stop looking for government to help you, and enjoy this great country that God has blessed.
Me:
I have read it and it said that I was 3/5′ths of a person. Now please don’t get it twisted. I live a life of joy I just don’t ignore injustice. Which is exactly what you are doing here. I can freely admit that black people do and say racist and evil things to white people. Can you do the same? Can you own up to an entire nation treating it’s black descendants as less than nothing? Can you own up to the gross injustice that is? Or will you ignore that and continue to be blind?
Please be blessed as well.
p



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 12:55 pm


Wayne,
You rock.
p



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Wolverine

posted July 4, 2007 at 1:39 pm


Rick,
What exactly did Reagan say about Martin Luther King?
And please don’t say “you can look it up yourself”. You’re the one bringing the accusation here, you should have the specifics handy.
Wolverine



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 1:43 pm


Wolvie quoting Perryman:
“Many no longer put their faith in God, instead they put their faith in government and those representing government. The shift from God to government has resulted in behavior unheard of and problems unprecedented.”
Me:
This is bs. Of all the ethnic groups that make up our country the majority of black people are Christian. The reason why many black people go thru government channels was because having in faith in God did not stop them from being lynched or discriminated against. We had to come up w/ other ways to protect ourselves from injustice. I trust God and as a mystic that is my primary focus. I just want to make sure that as I am trusting God no one else will have to go thru the suffering my ancestors did or that I went thru.
If laws can help protect them then great. But it’s going to take a lot more than that.
p



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jerry

posted July 4, 2007 at 1:48 pm


wayne & payshun; do you really think that the government can legislate racial understanding and force integration? did you read mick’s perryman quote? do you agree that only God can change people? martin luther king jr. and nelson mandela are/were great leaders. jackson and sharpton don’t match up and unfortunately powell, cosby, rice, connely and other prominent black leaders are not accepted or listened to by enough blacks.
your go visit a black church statement tells me that by perpetuating the past the present is justified. that is: whitey is still holding you back. i don’t see anywhere in this blog where anyone denys that discrimination exists. what i am saying is that affirmative action based upon race aggrevates integration. its about how people perceive or feel things. which brings me back to my original point – we are not all the same. created equal – yes. please don’t be naive and think tha you can legislate equality or force integration, it may make you look at best clueless at worst stupid.



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Anonymous

posted July 4, 2007 at 2:32 pm


“wayne & payshun; do you really think that the government can legislate racial understanding and force integration? did you read mick’s perryman quote? do you agree that only God can change people?”
Wayne here
I do not think government can legislate understanding.
I did read Mick’s quote
I think that if government does nothing to stop evil, evil will go on and in many cases society will end up calling it good. That is how it was prior to the sixties, for me at least.
It took the civil rights act before I could even “see” what had always been missing in my home town, which was African Americans. The current law said they could not even be in the city limits after ten PM. Since they had never been there I never knew or saw their absence.
No one in my city was going to change that law. Everyone I knew thought it was a good thing.
In the same way much of what has been gained by minorities has been the result of the opportunities that were only made available through AA law.
Your thinking is one sided. the “excuse” argument could just as easily be made for anyone who says they were held back by Affirmative Action because they were white. In fact the excuse argument is even more relevant to the complaint of reverse discrimination since the majority pop has intrinsic capabilities that are uniquely afforded only to them.
I can tell you that only after living in and with the minority population of my town have I been able to see these realities. If I had stayed and raised my family in the burbs, if my children ahd gone to private schools or had we continued to home school them, I think I might very well see things your way.
I come from white trash. I do not have a college degree. Neither did my parents or any other member of my family. My father never made more than what it took to live on and had to work 3 jobs to do that. Other than good parents I had none of the advantages afforded many other people, but I was white. I think white, I see white, I value white, and white people understand me. It has taken me over 25 years to be able to see in color. I am very thankful for my new eyes. I don’t always use them well, but I definately see colors and beauty I never knew existed.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 4, 2007 at 3:22 pm


What exactly did Reagan say about Martin Luther King?
I don’t have the exact quote right now — I think I have the specific reference at work — but he considered him a “troublemaker.” Something about lack of law and order.



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 4:03 pm


You said:
wayne & payshun; do you really think that the government can legislate racial understanding and force integration? did you read mick’s perryman quote? do you agree that only God can change people? martin luther king jr. and nelson mandela are/were great leaders. jackson and sharpton don’t match up and unfortunately powell, cosby, rice, connely and other prominent black leaders are not accepted or listened to by enough blacks.
Me:
Maybe because they are not prominent black leaders that are thinking about the community. Just a thought. Cosby had and still has some credibility but the other more conservative members you mentioned (and I include Powel in this even though I like him) have had virtually no major connections to the community. We are not just individuals but we are also part of a group and Cosby might be aware and address that but the others espcially Connerly don’t.
you said:
whitey is still holding you back.
Me:
For some people that can be true and you would know that if you were part of the community. I never said that black people were not responsible for problems w/n the poorer aspects of the community. They and we are. But I am saying when calls to the city, the county or state or federal authorities are ignored for no reason (except that there are poor and black or brown people) then that needs to be addressed. For some reason you ignore that. Why?
You:
i don’t see anywhere in this blog where anyone denys that discrimination exists.
Me:
Except for that statement there discrimination has not even been brought up except by Rick, me or Wayne. Why don’t you find places where you can help and fight against it. All your earlier posts make it a point to deny it.
You:
what i am saying is that affirmative action based upon race aggrevates integration.
Me:
What do you mean by the word integration? Integration is not a full goal of mine. Assimilation is not a goal of mine. I don’t care to assimilate or integrate into a society that was designed to destroy my people. The goal of integration was to make sure that no more discimination took place. That has been a mixed bag.
I believe in racial reconciliation. That’s why I go to a Vineyard church (predominately white;) disciple primarily white people (at least right now) and still fight for the rights of those in the poorer parts of my city. I don’t believe white people are holding me back from getting my dreams and I would never advocate that because that’s not entirely true. But I do notice that when I try to make changes that are fitting w/ what the goals of my church I encounter resistance because people don’t want to change.
I know the government can’t fix people’s hearts. I have never and will never ask it to do so. Heck God has a hard enough time doing it and he’s God. But I will demand that the government protect all of it’s citizens poor or rich, black or white, gay or stright and that’s only fair. The question is will you?
Jerry:
we are not all the same. created equal – yes.
me:
You are still missing the point. I am glad that we are all different and unlike you I like to celebrate and enjoy those differnces. I think they are beautiful (for the most part.) I just want to make sure that everyone is protected equally under the law. You don’t. I think I get it now.
You:
please don’t be naive and think tha you can legislate equality or force integration, it may make you look at best clueless at worst stupid.
Me:
Too bad they did and it has been a mixed bag. Some communities were forced and came out better for it. Others came out worse. But in the end you can force integration and that doesn’t make me naive or stupid or clueless because I have seen good come from it. That is not to say that’s for everyone. It’s not. But our history has shown that only when you force people to give up their ill gotten gains does justice happen. Look at civil rights era if you doubt that.
p



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 4:08 pm


Jerry,
Leave Sharpton alone. He is a great man and a great leader. I am not the biggest fan of Jackson but that has more to do w/ tactical differences and not character issues. Jackson is still a great man if not the best leader.
p



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Payshun

posted July 4, 2007 at 4:12 pm


Perryman is not a spokesman for black people. I don’t need excuses to justify anything. Pointing out current injustices is not that anyway. His statements are one sided and lacking a true grasp of American history. Both Democrats and Republicans were racists, supported the codes and did any number of things. So the problem of race was a first and foremost a national problem. I am not a victim of the racism I have gone thru. I have overcome it and will continue to and I will help others by encouraging self love and calling out the state when it abuses the poor. That’s right and something everyone should do. Do you agree w/ that?
p



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jerry

posted July 4, 2007 at 5:25 pm


i help others and i spread the good news of Jesus Christ. we reap what we sow. Jesus said to love your neighbor and i do. see ya.



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Wolverine

posted July 4, 2007 at 8:33 pm


Payshun,
I did not cite Perryman, Mick did. While I concede I have some sympathy for Perryman’s point of view, I am on record stating that he “overstated things dramatically”.
Wolverine



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 4, 2007 at 10:56 pm


i help others and i spread the good news of Jesus Christ. we reap what we sow. Jesus said to love your neighbor and i do. see ya.
Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.
Jerry — do you do these?



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:08 am


I have dedicated my life to solving this problem while you will continue to keep your head in the sand and continue to deny there is one
So what have you done ?



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:41 am


This says it better ,
Wall Builders .
When blacks were interviewed following Election 2000, many explained that they had supported Gore for fear that if Bush were elected President, he would take away the right of blacks to vote – a charge circulated by Gore supporters.
The basis for this charge is the fact that the Voting Rights Act of 1965 will be up for renewal under the next President, and – according to current idiots like Sharpton Republicans are racists who oppose civil rights; why – as the argument goes – they even opposed the Civil Rights and Voting Rights Acts of the 1960s and
Actually, historical facts prove just the opposite.
As explained by Professor Robert D. Lovey, author of A Brief History of Civil Rights in the United States of America, “the nationalization of black civil rights came to a complete end in 1892 when the Democrats gained control of the presidency and both houses of Congress for the first time since the Civil War.
By 1894, this Democratic Congress had succeeded in repealing most of the civil rights laws that had been enacted during the post-Civil War period, most importantly the provisions that had to do with voting rights. This wholesale removal of protections left the black citizen in the South almost completely at the mercy of Southern State governments, and the result was a rash of State laws protecting the right of white citizens to segregate themselves from black citizens in many aspects of social and political life
African-Americans, therefore, being the victims of Democratic-sponsored racism and segregation, continued their loyalty to Republicans well into the 20th century. In fact, in the 1932 presidential election, incumbent Republican President Herbert Hoover received more than three-fourths of the black vote over his Democratic challenger Franklin D. Roosevelt.
Roosevelt, however, won the election; but because civil rights bills were widely opposed by Southern Democrats, and because Southern Democrats had been a key constituency in his victories, Roosevelt chose not to introduce civil rights bills. He did use executive orders to help further some civil rights, and he also established a Civil Rights Section in the Justice Department; he even directed much of the spending of the “New Deal” programs toward blacks. As a result, black voters slowly began to switch from the Republicans to the Democrats. As one civil rights historian explains, “In the years following the New Deal, the Democratic Party found it best to win black votes with economic benefits rather than by advancing the cause of black civil rights.”
Following President Roosevelt, Democrat President Harry S. Truman did propose a civil rights bill, but it was not passed; and its introduction effectively ruined Truman’s relationship with Southern Democrats in Congress.
Even though Republican President Dwight D. Eisenhower knew that it would be difficult to change the Southern Democrat’s belief in racial segregation, he determined to eliminate racial discrimination in all areas under his authority. He therefore issued executive orders halting segregation practices in the District of Columbia, in the military, and in the federal bureaucracy. Furthermore, Eisenhower was the first president to appoint a black, Frederic Morrow, to an executive position on the White House staff. Eisenhower consequently received significant support from black voters in his reelection to the presidency in 1956. In 1960, he introduced a civil rights bill, but it was promptly blocked by the Democratic Chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee. Although a Republican Senator and the Republican Attorney General proposed compromise language, it, too, was rejected by the Democrats.54
When Democratic President John F. Kennedy was elected in 1960, he was less willing than Eisenhower to utilize executive orders to promote civil rights. In fact, Kennedy delayed for more than a year the signing of an executive order to integrate public housing. But following the violent racial discord in Birmingham in 1963, Kennedy finally sent a major civil rights bill to Congress and then aggressively worked for its passage, but was assassinated before he could see its success. To achieve passage of the measure, Democrat successor Lyndon Johnson resurrected the compromise language proposed by Republicans under Eisenhower in 1960, thus breaking a Southern Democratic filibuster of the civil rights bill and allowing Johnson to sign into law the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965.55
While these two important civil rights acts were signed into law under a Democratic President, it was the Republicans in Congress who made possible the passage of these Acts, for even though the Democrats controlled both Houses by wide margins, they still could not garner enough of their own votes to pass the bills. In fact, in the House, only 61% of the Democrats voted for the Civil Rights Act (152 for, 96 against) while 80% of Republicans voted for it (138 for, 38 against).56 In the Senate, only 69% of Democrats voted for the Act (46 for, 21 against) while 82% of Republicans did (27 for, 6 against).57 The passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and the Voting Rights Act of 1965 would not have been possible without the strong, cohesive support of the Republicans. In fact, all Southern Democrats voted against the Civil Rights Act, including Sen. Al Gore, Sr., who voted with the Southern Democrats against civil rights whenever the occasion arose.58
One other important civil rights note is that after the Democrats regained control of the federal and of many State governments in the 1880s and 1890s, they instituted what became known as “white primaries” to keep blacks from being placed on the ballot.59 Democrats also developed poll taxes to keep blacks from voting because, according to prominent Democrat leader A.W. Terrell, the 15th Amendment guaranteeing black voting rights was “the political blunder of the century.”60
As confirmed by Encyclopaedia Britannica, “the Democrats amended their State constitutions or drafted new ones to include various disfranchising devices. When payment of the poll tax was made a prerequisite to voting, impoverished blacks and often poor whites, unable to afford the tax, were denied the right to vote.”61 How effective were the Democratic poll taxes in keeping blacks from voting? In Texas alone, 100,000 blacks had voted before the poll tax was instituted but only 5,000 afterwards.62
While an attempt was made in 1943 in Congress to repeal the poll tax instituted by Southern Democrats, the repeal failed, with the floor of Congress becoming the site of ugly racist rhetoric.63 It was not until 1966 that the poll tax was ended, and it had only been in 1944 that the “white primaries” had finally ceased.
Significantly, it was not Democrats, but the Republicans, who had long championed the repeal of the poll tax. In fact, as early as 1896, the Republican platform declared:
We demand that every citizen of the United States shall be allowed to cast one free and unrestricted ballot, and that such ballot shall be counted and returned as cast.64
Clearly, then, the charge that Republicans in general, and George Bush in particular, would not extend the Voting Rights Act of 1965 is completely without any factual basis and relies solely on historical revisionism.
Yet, despite the unequivocal (but often unknown) records of history, today’s blacks often hold an opposite view. As African-American professor Ronald Walters explains in Black Oklahoma Today:
[Blacks] vote their interests and when it appears that a person or party doesn’t particularly like them, they will take their business elsewhere. The “elsewhere” for blacks has generally been with Democrats, largely because of the feeling that, even though Democrats have also done them wrong, they feel that Democrats are less prone to be racist than Republicans.
However, as black media personality R.D. Davis of Alabama correctly observes, “History tends to unilaterally and falsely depict Republicans as racists when Southern Democrats truly deserved this title.”



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:53 am


I will only give you a snapshot as it would take too long to list all the things I have done. While in college I was part of an interfaith reconcilation team and spent years learning and teaching Christians and Muslims and Jews to get along.
I joined Intervarsity Christian Fellowship and our fellowship dedicated itself to racial rec. Let’s just say it was a complicated time and leave it at that. But during that time I learned to do innerhealing prayer for any number of issues ranging from race and gender to sexuality and class. I learned to listen, to heal, and to advocate for other people different from myself. That meant going to different meetings, hanging out in their homes, meeting their families, being exposed to their crap and dealing w/ their racism toward me.
You would not believe the number of times I have had to forgive whites and asians for their racism toward me and mine. That meant hearing confessions from some of dearest friends. those confessions entailed hearing that people hated me because I was black, that I as a black man would rape a couple of my female friends, jealousy the beauty of my culture, being the scapegoat of entire fellowships, fighting against racism on my campus. Like when I would walk into the multi ethnic halls and see the words nigger go home repeated thru out the hall, protesting, laughing, taking people to dinner in ethnic environments, learning different cultural dances, eating a lot of chinese food, and really bending over backwords to be as welcoming and accomadating as possible. There were also times where I was called the n-word for a week by random people I did not know just because they were mad that I was on the campus.
I am not at all claiming I was perfect during that time but I did a lot (w/o going into too much detail.)
After college I joined different multiethnic churches and continued a ministry where I learned to empower and heal white men and women of the legacy of racism and it’s impact on their lives. Just a couple of weeks ago I prayed for and saw the Holy Spirit heal years of the stuff from my mentor (a white conservative, fundamentalist christian.)
I also worked on my own issues about hating white people and being angry for no good reason. I learned to stand up for the least of these and I taught in many different public and private schools. Some of my classes were teaching predominately Spanish speaking Mexicans to pass the Cashee exam (the CA exit exam,) helping and volunteering in Bresee (a youth, child mentorship program) working w/ newly arrived immigrants and their families to acclimate and make sure they had the resources to live everyday. We would some times raise funds or serve as resource bank directing them where to go to get help. I also discipled and trained 8 people in college from diverse backgrounds, one Korean man, one white and Mexican man, a wasp, a chinese woman, a chinese and white man, a mexican and Italian man, a multiethnic man and a black and white man. I also helped design curriculum for english learning stundents and a whole host of other things that would take way too long to type. But you get the idea.
Post college I am discipling and training 6 different people from diverse backgrounds. One is a Canadian born man, another white American man, a white american woman, a filipino lawyer, another 2 more white guys. So yah that’s a snapshot of what I do and will continue to do.
p



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 3:00 am


Mick,
Umm your facts there don’t show the whole picture. Republicans by and large wanted to punish the south for the war so that’s why they supported and helped send blacks to congress during the civil war. It had less to do w/ justice for blacks and more to do w/ revenge against the south.
p



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aaron

posted July 5, 2007 at 8:42 am


“History tends to unilaterally and falsely depict Republicans as racists when Southern Democrats truly deserved this title.”
Bonus Points: And where did southern democrats go?



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 5, 2007 at 8:46 am


Mick — You are still denying the obvious historical truth, which colors what anyone may write. Let me repeat: Racist Southern Democratic politicians shifted to the Republican Party when conservatives got a hold of it in the 1960s; Strom Thurmond was the first, and others followed with Ronald Reagan, where they have remained. Though he wasn’t himself a racist, Barry Goldwater started preaching “states’ rights,” still sacred in the South, when he was campaigning for president. And when he signed the Civil Rights Act in 1965, Lyndon Johnson reportedly said, “I have just lost the South for a generation.”
Clearly, then, the charge that Republicans in general, and George Bush in particular, would not extend the Voting Rights Act of 1965 is completely without any factual basis and relies solely on historical revisionism.
But it is the author who is engaging in historical revision. Remember, we’re talking not about political parties per se but ideology, and generally conservatives (now mostly in the GOP) have opposed expanding and maintaining rights for anyone but themselves.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 5, 2007 at 10:31 am


Wolverine — The following passage came from an editorial in the Boston Globe:
“After King was assassinated in 1968, Governor Reagan said it was ‘a great tragedy that began when we began compromising with law and order, and people started choosing which laws they’d break,’ a tasteless dig at King’s civil-disobedience protest.” (That comment represented many Southerners’ attitude toward protesters, as well.)
The article also read, “The racist Senator Jesse Helms was asserting that King had been a communist, and [President] Reagan seemed to agree. ‘We’ll know in about 35 years, won’t we?’ the president said during debate on the bill [making King's birthday a federal holiday], referring to the time when FBI files could be opened.” And I definitely remember that quote.
Also, “And in his 1976 campaign for president, Reagan often used an anecdote about a ‘welfare queen’ to stir up resentment about poor blacks on public assistance. Reagan toned down his rhetoric when he won the presidency in 1980, but his policies matched the old smears. He pushed Congress to cut taxes on wealthy Americans and deemphasized federal aid to the poor.”
Clearly Reagan, if not himself a racist, was hostile to racial justice.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:10 pm


Clearly Reagan, if not himself a racist, was hostile to racial justice.
Posted by: Rick Nowlin
Obviously Rick , Reagans own life showed different , Unlike yours where you admitted your racism and still use it for political viewpoints.
One example is when Reagan was involved in sports , his team was going to compete . The hotel would not allow the black man on the team stay in the same hotel . So then the kid Reagan brought the young man to his house to stay . Those stories are frequent and not at unusual in the life of Roanald Reagan . People that knew him know this. You know little of Roanls Reagan except your own shallow talking points . To tear down a man , a dead man to make you appear bigger or your political views bigger is just wrong . Your views appear racist to me .



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:24 pm


college I was part of an interfaith reconcilation team and spent years learning and teaching Christians and Muslims and Jews to get along.
Me .. Too funny , you are putting that on your resume . It clearly shows here .
That meant going to different meetings, hanging out in their homes, meeting their families, being exposed to their crap and dealing w/ their racism toward me.
Me
Have not seemed to help you using your racism towards them or us .
You would not believe the number of times I have had to forgive whites and asians for their racism toward me and mine. That meant hearing confessions from some of dearest friends. those confessions entailed hearing that people hated me because I was black, that I as a black man would rape a couple of my female friends, jealousy the beauty of my culture, being the scapegoat of entire fellowships, fighting against racism on my campus.
Me
You sound like a professional victim . Do you realize man just taking then offence in the Bible l is a sin ? Do you know what Christ endured for you , That people such as I , just for Christ sake would be glad to stand by you and support you . All your reasons have nothing to do with the Lord , it has some us and them mentality that you have allowed racism to project into your life . You have allowed racists to control your views .
Like when I would walk into the multi ethnic halls and see the words nigger go home repeated thru out the hall, protesting, laughing, taking people to dinner in ethnic environments, learning different cultural dances, eating a lot of chinese food, and really bending over backwords to be as welcoming and accomadating as possible. There were also times where I was called the n-word for a week by random people I did not know just because they were mad that I was on the campus.
Me Again all you have done is allowed racist to promote their hatred and become your reason for being . Taking the offence and allowing that is as sinful as the rasist . It has ruined who you could have been been, you are God’s Favorite you knuckelhead . It has nothing to do with your race . Lower you rhetoric and maybe you can make some sense .
After college I joined different multiethnic churches and continued a ministry where I learned to empower and heal white men and women of the legacy of racism and it’s impact on their lives. Just a couple of weeks ago I prayed for and saw the Holy Spirit heal years of the stuff from my mentor (a white conservative, fundamentalist christian.)
Me
You healed a white fundamentalist Christrian . You are claiming fame for this ? What ministry do you have ? Do you charge people for doing this , and does Christ any credit for all your work ?
I also worked on my own issues about hating white people
Me ..
Hello !
Some of my classes were teaching predominately Spanish speaking Mexicans to pass the Cashee exam (the CA exit exam,) helping and volunteering in Bresee (a youth, child mentorship program) working w/ newly arrived immigrants and their families to acclimate and make sure they had the resources to live everyday.
Me .
Thank you , now your talking . You have a gift , One day I believe God will bless you depsite yourself .



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 2:33 pm


(now mostly in the GOP) have opposed expanding and maintaining rights for anyone but themselves.
That is where you are totally wrong Rick . The issues concerning blacks are far removed from the Republican Party of today , That is true . But what I tried to show was the depictation of the Republican Party by democratic activists is also quite removed from reality .
The fact racist polices brought forth have always been by democrats . The worse it appears from my perspective is that Republicans , since my experience has been with less government , not for racist reasons , but beliefs that have little to do with your issues . Your issues are totally lost on republicans , mainly a true fact . Just like my issues are totally mis represented and ignored by democrats . Am I more saved then liberal Christians , more untuned with the Holy Spirit , may I never say that or think it . We have different perspectives from different experiences and lifes . We are God’s favorite .
I have always thought what would be best would be more Evangelicals getting involved with democrats and more minorities getting involved with republicans , and therefore have an influence and education of people on your side , I believe we tend to listen better when we feel the person is on our side of helping get things done .
Christ is a good starting point , you appear not to consider that important . Thats your problem .



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wayne

posted July 5, 2007 at 3:49 pm


Rick
Now that Mick has revealed to you where your problems lie, I am sure your feeling much better.
Adding to that He has also told you that Christ is a good starting point, and all that “n” word stuff is just sort of about your attitude and how you need to be more forgiving. You really have to understand that the word “Nigger” isn’t about race at all, it’s about your attitude. If you forgave people for using that word it would just lose all of its power to hurt you. By all means you need to watch out for any kind of “root of bitterness” about being called that.
You see Rick you are not a victim. You are God’s Favorite. If it bothers you that those others who scribbled that crap on the wall also think they are God’s favorites, or that your children will have the same experiences, see the above.
Also he has revealed that it is easier to listen to people who are on the same page as you and helping do things you care about. Man, I don’t know about you, but that one really got to me!!
I think I’ll e-mail Kevin and Wolverine about it, not to mention Donny!
So… what can I, another white man, say or add to all that?
Daang! Who knew it was all that simple!
Wow Mick! I am sure Payshun and Rick understand where you’re coming from now.
Mick, In all seriousness, you don’t have a clue about any of this.
Rick, I hope the healing of God you experienced has some residual effects for you.



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Anonymous

posted July 5, 2007 at 3:51 pm


“Google “resegregation of public schools”
I think the prominent group would be us WASP’s, White Anglo Scary People”
I didn’t see anything on repealing the Brown decision, and nobody has been able to find any prominent movements dedicated to doing so. So let’s dispense with the idea.
“You have concisely stated where you are coming from on this.”
I would hope so.
“Sadly enough, you ignore systemic injustices that were heaped on minorities in the past and that continue to this day.”
My statement doesn’t ignore them. Why are systemic injustices related to race more important than any oher systemic injustices?
“As for the constitution backing you up, it probably will back you up in the way you wish as many fine precedent decisions are whittled away by Bush appointees.”
What is a precedent decision? Which of these has been whittled away?
“When you get the result of seething, disenfranchised minority groups, I doubt you’ll be happy.”
How are they disenfranchized? They have the right to vote. We throw this word around to the point that it has lost all meaning.
“Clearly Reagan, if not himself a racist, was hostile to racial justice.”
You consider it racist to even be a Republican. You stretch the term beyond all meaning.



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Anonymous

posted July 5, 2007 at 3:53 pm


Gabriel wrote: “There are two major positions around this issue (with some nuance and complexity around each position). First, some feel that affirmative action policies have already done what they set out to do and that to continue to implement these policies would be, in their eyes, tantamount to ‘reverse discrimination.’ Others feel that affirmative action is still very much needed to prevent re-segregation and exclusionary practices against minorities in higher education and employment, just to mention a couple places.”
He left out a third large group of people. Those who believe that discrimination based on race is wrong and that is why affirmative action should be eliminated. When a government official tells a child that he or she can’t go to their local school because of their race, whether it is 1950s Mississippi or 2007 Seattle, it is unjust.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 4:19 pm


Well thank you Wayne , that has helped , and I am sure you do .
The fact is I was being sincere . You are obviously a better white man then I .



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 4:26 pm


He left out a third large group of people. Those who believe that discrimination based on race is wrong and that is why affirmative action should be eliminated. When a government official tells a child that he or she can’t go to their local school because of their race, whether it is 1950s Mississippi or 2007 Seattle, it is unjust.
Amen !



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Anonymous

posted July 5, 2007 at 4:34 pm


Seperate is not equal, never was, never will be.
If we continue to live and worship in a seperated, segregated manner we might as well be supremecists, at least that would be honest.
Posted by: wayne
Oh thank you for your input , Like you have a clue ? One hand you use the Church , Christ as the starting point , but in the next blog because the persons views , perspective is different , you mock their Faith and their attempt to use Christ as a mutual place to respect each others view and sincerity . . So what church do you belong to , my way or the highway temple of Baal ?
Right P he rocks , more like he knows how to stone . But thats oK , because he has helped you so much get over your hurt . Look now you can call other people ignorant . So much better now ? .



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 4:50 pm


Wayne have you ever been mugged by a man of a different race , threatened with a pipe for you possessions . Believe possibly your life was about to end because of it ? Have you ever had a man of a different race use his silivia to wet your hair in the attempt to take away your dignity as a person . Walking through a neigborhood and have rocks chucked at you for no reason but the fact you were a different race . Ridiculed and names such as cracker used to identfy your personhood ?
And also have you ever had a friend of a different race come to your aid , and then see that person receive racist comments during his attempt to help you. Kind of a mixed bag racism , I see it used to hurt me , and I have seen it used to hurt my friend who was a different race then I .
Yeah racism has less to do with politics , it has more to do with people .
I suggest to you Jesus Christ is the answer , and my proof is your sympathy for myself has no compassion or understanding of that occurence . You know that , and I doubt your compassion for P or Rick has less to with who they are then what politics they promote and even their race . You base your relationships and attempts at them based on an agenda that will never be achieved because your very methods stop the justice you say you support .
What is a kick is I am also a Union member . At work I hear some of the most racist comments from people at times . They get along fibne with me , I am the token Republican . But the belief democrats are more understanding and supportive of issues pertaining to race is laughable . They use race for power , the GOP uses Business for power . When will the people get a clue ?
Then again , dismiss my understanding . The Holy Spirit only works through democrats .



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 5, 2007 at 5:03 pm


Why are systemic injustices related to race more important than any oher systemic injustices?
Three reasons: One, in many cases they were written into law. Two, they were based exclusively on physical appearances, not culture, religion et al that can be easily changed. Three, for that reason, virtually all other forms of institutionalized discrimination disappeared within a couple of generations.
You consider it racist to even be a Republican. You stretch the term beyond all meaning.
Well, when, and only when, you get rid of the racists in your own party/ideology will you have the authority to talk about anyone else’s — something in the Bible about taking the log out of your own eye before removing the speck from your brothers’. Conservatives (and it has nothing to do with being a Republican or Democrat) need to confront their own sordid history of racism, and any protestations they may offer will not change that reality; that in a nutshell is the reason why conservative complaints about “affirmative action” come across as extremely hypocritical. I’m sorry if I come across as arrogant or condescending, but in addition to suffering from racism at the hands of others I myself know what it’s like to have been a perpetrator of such and repented over 30 years ago. (FWIW, most “liberals” already have done the same.)
Furthermore, most African-Americans have always known that most Reagan-worshippers despise, or at least dismiss, black progress, which is why conservatives cannot make inroads into the black community no matter how hard they try or how much money they spend.
I also find it interesting that Billy Graham and Bill McCartney, who are not liberals but know from personal experience what racism’s about, both lost support among “Bible-believing Christians” when they took strong stances against it.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 5, 2007 at 5:13 pm


Wayne have you ever been mugged by a man of a different race, threatened with a pipe for you possessions. Believe possibly your life was about to end because of it? Have you ever had a man of a different race use his silivia to wet your hair in the attempt to take away your dignity as a person. Walking through a neigborhood and have rocks chucked at you for no reason but the fact you were a different race.
I won’t speak for Wayne, but many of these have happened to me. I’ve had black colleagues stopped by police just for being there, one even in his own neighborhood!
I suggest to you Jesus Christ is the answer, and my proof is your sympathy for myself has no compassion or understanding of that occurence.
Frankly, that statement is completely ignorant. FWIW, I was “born again” in 1979, have never “backslid” and can quote Scripture with the best of them, yet I cannot ignore the history of either this country or the American church; I would not be faithful to Christ or His Kingdom were I to do so. On top of that, if these injustices happened to you as well, why are you then not sympethetic to those who have also suffered? It’s the reason I mentioned in the post above that I pledged long ago to flush my own tendency toward racism.



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 5:19 pm


You:
Too funny , you are putting that on your resume . It clearly shows here .
Me:
Actually none of that went on my resume. That was purely something I did because I wanted to love people of different group than me and see how we can support and build relationships even if we have different faiths.
You:
Have not seemed to help you using your racism towards them or us .
Me:
Please stop using the word racism. You don’t know what you are talking about and it is really making you look ignorant.
You:
You sound like a professional victim . Do you realize man just taking then offence in the Bible l is a sin ? Do you know what Christ endured for you , That people such as I , just for Christ sake would be glad to stand by you and support you . All your reasons have nothing to do with the Lord , it has some us and them mentality that you have allowed racism to project into your life . You have allowed racists to control your views .
Me:
That’s just bad theology. Have you ignored the prophets and Christ’s own words? He got offended at the Fig Tree when it did not bear fruit and cursed it. Then he said some rather interesting things about how some men will be cut off if people don’t bear fruit. Being offended at sin is the right thing to do. So is loving and showing grace to your enemies. Sometimes that entails a hug and a blessing and other times sharp rebuke. You think I am victim. That’s foolish. I wrote about my experiences to show that I have conquered them thru the love and healing of the holy spirit. Truly you are clueless.
You:
Again all you have done is allowed racist to promote their hatred and become your reason for being . Taking the offence and allowing that is as sinful as the rasist . It has ruined who you could have been been, you are God’s Favorite you knuckelhead . It has nothing to do with your race . Lower you rhetoric and maybe you can make some sense .
Me:
Up your intelligence and empathy and maybe you will understand it. In case you have not noticed I forgave all those people that did that to me. I forgave them thru the Holy Spirit and I recieved healing for it. I just know there is more injustice out there and if you only opened your eyes you would see it. But that’s alright stay blind complacent and luke warm.
You:
You healed a white fundamentalist Christrian . You are claiming fame for this ? What ministry do you have ? Do you charge people for doing this , and does Christ any credit for all your work ?
Me:
Please read and pay attention to what I actually wrote (pay attention to the word in caps:)
Just a couple of weeks ago I prayed for and saw the HOLY SPIRIT heal years of the stuff from my mentor (a white conservative, fundamentalist christian.)
The Spirit used me to heal yes but does the scapel claim credit for a master surgeon’s hands?
Ofcourse not. The Spirit of God got the glory that day. You would know that if you weren’t too busy trying to depict me as arrogant, racist and angry.
of the three of those I can say that I am angry about continual injustice but I am not racist (I don’t believe that I am superior to you and I am not promoting policy that does that,) or arrogant. If I were truly arrogant in the way you were describing I would hide my flaws instead I embrace them because God loves me and that’s all that matters.
You said:
Thank you , now your talking . You have a gift , One day I believe God will bless you depsite yourself .
Me:
Talk about arrogance. You assume that I am not blessed or am missing out on a blessing from my Father. Truly you are blind. The blessings I have recieved from my sometimes joyful and other times reluctant service has given me a relationship w/ Yeshua the likes of which very few people ever recieve.
I have learned to love and heal my enemies. I forgave all those that hurt me. Can you say the same? I have learned to love the prisoner, the child molester, the white man, lesbian, the transgendered and myself. It’s obvious for all your rhetoric you have done little to actually make this world better and fight against the continuing and systemic injustices that plague our land. Why don’t you get off your lazy butt and go to a townhall meeting? Why don’t you get more friends that don’t think like you and actually embrace what they think and how they feel? why don’t you try that? You will be surprised what the ministry of reconcilation can do.
Oh and one last thing I mentioned nothing but good things ranging from forgiving those that hurt me, mentoring young men and women, being in workshops designed to heal wounds between religious groups, to praying for broken people but instead of praising God and honoring him you offer scorn. Now it’s your turn what have you done or are going to do to make this world better or is your only legacy scorn and foolishness?
p



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 5:44 pm


Wayne said:
Wow Jerry!
That is mighty white, (culturally speaking) of you.
What great advice Payshun!
Just enjoy what God has given you.
The answer to racism is for all African Americans to “see the world as it is” and “just enjoy” what God has given them!? sheesh!
I guess that is an example of white “color blindness” If I was you Payshun “I be hearin the Massah tellin me how I should be a happy boy”
Seriously Payshun, I am very sorry you had to read that.
Mick,
It was funny. Sorry you felt hurt by it. But I laughed so… it passed my test and gave me a smile about a very serious issue. For some reason you feel hurt by it I would like to know why?
p



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kevin s.

posted July 5, 2007 at 5:52 pm


“Well, when, and only when, you get rid of the racists in your own party/ideology will you have the authority to talk about anyone else’s”
There are racists in both parties, dude. Fred Phelps is a Democrat, not that I am really intruiged by the “stick ‘em with the racists” argument. I could counter by simply evoking Amanda Marcotte and her merry band of lunatics. That doesn’t get at the issue. I can’t tell anyone how to vote.
The relationship between racist southerners and Goldwater has been confronted and discussed at length. Affirmative action remains bad policy, and simply trying to attack the messenger does not change that fact.



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BAL

posted July 5, 2007 at 6:17 pm


Although I’ve never posted on this board before, I’ve been reading the interchange going on here recently, and I must say it’s apparent how different God is to so many people. I see people who proclaim that God is the center of their world, yet they are all affected differently by his presence. It is intriguing to me.
About the affirmative action article, as a researcher in human resources and organizations, I encourage you to go to an online database and look for scholarly journal articles on affirmative action perceptions. There is a lot of great scientific research in the area. You’ll see that though affirmative action is actually a “tiebreak” program in which race or ethnicity or gender is used as a “tiebreak” for equally qualified individuals, most White Americans perceive it as a preferential treatment program. Indeed, most minorities have a more accurate perception of actual Af Action. If you are in HR in an organization, you know this policy, and you act on it. 99% of the time, unqualified individuals are not being hired over qualified ones. People who believe that usually just can’t get over the fact that a woman or a minority is better qualified than they are (or equally so). In fact, an article by Goldman and colleagues (2003 I think) noted that white men are relatively more likely to file discrimination claims than minorities or women! I do encourage you to look at the research on the impact of Af Action, and to understand the historical basis of it. I also encourage an article by Peggy McIntosh called the “invisible knapsack of privilege” or something along those lines. It reminds me often that even though I am a woman and am systematically disadvantaged because of it, I am also privileged due to my race, even if I don’t see it. It’s a great lesson in humility.
I conclude with a story about myself, as everyone seems to be doing, I guess. When it comes down to it, I can never hide the fact that I am a woman, and I don’t want to. However, even in many churches preaching the love of the God that I know in my heart, I am at a disadvantage. Women can’t preach the love of God in many churches, and the Bible itself (never Jesus, mind you, but other parts) devalue my femininity and my God-given gifts. I will, to some, always be only a mother and never anything else. If I’m mad, it’s because it’s “that time of month,” if I’m tired, it’s because I “can’t handle the pressure.” If I try to talk, it’s “gossip.” The men in my office would never have hired me if I wasn’t good looking…and if they knew how much I spoke out against bigotry. Even among the smartest men in the country, racism and sexism looms large…so do we need Affirmative Action? By God’s grace, I say yes we do. Unfortunately, many people need an excuse to do the right thing–and without the law, they’ll choose not to. My dept would be happy with all white, upper class men–and they tend to hire that because that’s who they “feel comfortable with.” I think that’s WAY worse than any drawbacks of Affirmative Action…
Thanks for “listening” and God bless all of you…



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Anonymous

posted July 5, 2007 at 6:20 pm


“I suggest to you Jesus Christ is the answer , and my proof is your sympathy for myself has no compassion or understanding of that occurence . You know that , and I doubt your compassion for P or Rick has less to with who they are then what politics they promote and even their race . You base your relationships and attempts at them based on an agenda that will never be achieved because your very methods stop the justice you say you support.”
Mick the other kick is I have been through all of the above, or awfully close to it. What’s more I have had some of those things atempted on me by persons of my own race. I have watched my wife and kids go through all the above. I have watched other people of different racial heritage than I, go through all the above. I have also seen my friends who are not white, humiliated for who they are racially, not what they might have done and with no respect for their character.
Since you and I share in these experiences of the minority population, what makes us so special?
Why do we deserve to have this “attitude” because of our painful past? Are we so special that we can get off telling others how they should just forgive? Rick was trying to tell you about his experience of forgiving others. You missed it and somehow got it all backwards thinking he had healed his mentor(???)and then proceeded to chide him for not giving God the Glory.
Mick, stop and think for a minute.
The fact is there are more of us than there are of anyone else in this country. The fact is that this country is built on a heritage of oppressing the minority, be they Irish, Italian, Jewish, Arab, Hispanic, and let’s not forget the very special oppression we meted out to Africans and Native Americans. Oppression which no one can tally the profits we all gained from and from which we still won’t take responsibility for. (I didn’t do it. My great grandpappy did!) That is what makes you and me so special Mick. That is why I am for Affirmative Action.
As it is you seem to think my methods are just political when actually almost none of them are. You therefore demonstrate a prejudice against me. You lump me into some political catagory and make assumptions that you have no basis for.
I see things from a different perspective than I use to and most of that is caused by what I have seen.
So yeah my white union brother in Christ! I still do not believe you know what your talking about. I think you are angry! I think you preach authoritatively to an audience you do not know.
Further you do not know anything of my politics, only assuming I am some kind of liberal or Democrat. I am neither. I have been a registered Republican all my adult life. I was born and raised in the most conservative of families. I voted for Nixon, Goldwater, Nixon, Nixon, Carter,(because of my faith and his), Reagan, Reagan Bush, Bush, Bush, and Bush. What makes me so liberal? I think I am one of those Republicans you’v been touting so much to Rick and Payshun



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 6:37 pm


P
That’s just bad theology. Have you ignored the prophets and Christ’s own words? He got offended at the Fig
Where have you read Christ was offended ? Do you know what offended means ? He was not offended , he is God ! You think Christ or God can be offended ? Sorry , we don;t have that ability P Thank God .
psalm 119.165
165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Matthew 5:44
44But I tell you: Love your enemies[a] and pray for those who persecute you,
,Matthew 24:10 (King James Version)
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
Matthew 6:14 (King James Version)
4For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
16And in the same way the ones sown upon stony ground are those who, when they hear the Word, at once receive and accept and welcome it with joy;
17And they have no real root in themselves, and so they endure for a little while; then when trouble or persecution arises on account of the Word, they immediately are offended (become displeased, indignant, resentful) and they stumble and fall away.
Me .. Just some examples of the Lord not wanting us to be offended . Because obviopusly I have offended you , and if there were people watching , and indeed they are , they would not see you as a witness or a very good representative of Christ , only their politics at best . . Thats why when people offend you , whwn you allow youself to be , and you react to their hatred , you do nothing for the Kingdom . You say I have bad theology ? Why because I believe when someone ridicules me for Christ sake I think it wrong to take the offence ? Read the Sermon on the Mount , we are commanded to be like that . Besides its not us being offended , but that is a another lesson . The Bait of Satan is offence P .
YOU
Then he said some rather interesting things about how some men will be cut off if people don’t bear fruit. Being offended at sin is the right thing to do.
ME
Not offended P , not offended . Read your Bible , ask your Pastor , when you are offended you loose , you lost . If some one offended your wife , are you going to act Christ like ? Well we are suppose to , but man I have not arrived yet either . But I would not brag or consider it correct to beat the crap out of a man for insulting my wife , there is a correct response , and it does not mean to allow the abuse to go on .
When someone says something negative about you based on your race , is that a sin , I believe it is , but if you treat that sin by being offended by it , you undermine God in the way he would have you handle it . Thats my point , and that is Bibical indeed .
Ya think King handled it by being offended ? No its why even white boys like me think he was a great man . He had a way of making you see truth , see Christ by the way he handled hatred .
Folks like Sharpton don’t do that for me , he makes mme see a people being offended and in return saying and promoting policies that promote division . Thats how I see it .
Of course not to you , because If you can not put me in a box , it destroys everything you believe . You can only enlighten me my friend, you choose to put me in a box instead .
I re call years and years ago going to a black church with a friend on mine . When we walked in , I quickly ralized I and my wife , blond hair , blue eyes , were the only white people there . So what did I do , I squished over to sit next to the AfricanAmerican lady who invited us . Yeah I am not aware of what you go through . But I do understand a little albout always being is neigborhoods and chuches where my race is in the majority , I take it for granted . The first time I am in the minority , In a Pentecostal Chruch , where the beliefs are like mine I was uncomfortable . I am surrounded by people who love my Lord , who Love me , and share the same faith and friends in common , and I am uncomfortable .
Ended up going back every night for a week , it was a revival type of deal , and then I asked their Pastor to come to my church and worship with us as a congregation , they did , it was like a cultural exchange of sorts . I grew by it , maybe not up to your standards , but the standards I am more concerned about are God’s .
Sorry , don’t be offended .
Christ using a scornful guy like me to promote his Church . Go figure .



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 6:44 pm


Minor correction Wayne,
That was me not Rick. It was me. (I know we all look alike.j/k) It’s cool to see that even though I don’t agree w/ your politics Wayne we can see injustice for what it is and act rightly. thanks for that. You remind me of my mentor. I am not even an evangleical and I loathe the Democrats. I have not been one for years. I find them to be spineless and less than weak. But this discussion and your input are extremely valuable. Where I must be stearn and unyielding you can get Mick to listen a little bit. That works.
p



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 7:40 pm


Let me first start off w/ this little thing. I am offended at slum lord conditions in housing for people that work but are broke. i am offended when my gay friends are made fun of for being gay. I am offended by injustice. the fact that you are not is offensive to me. You don’t offend me. Some of your views are dismissive and your inability to connect to my pain is sad (for you) but the only thing that makes your desire offensive is that you think it’s my job to “enlighten you.” When it comes to race my goal is to say my piece, speak my mind and that’s it.
as for the word offend:
. tr.
1. To cause displeasure, anger, resentment, or wounded feelings in.
2. To be displeasing or disagreeable to: Onions offend my sense of smell.
3. To transgress; violate: offend all laws of humanity.
To cause to sin.
v. intr.
To result in displeasure: Bad manners may offend.
1. To violate a moral or divine law; sin.
2. To violate a rule or law: offended against the curfew.
If God did not get offended at sin then jesus would not have been necessary. it’s obvious that you have taken verses from the bible and twisted them to describe God in a way that is not representative of his character. Let’s take a look at places where God was offended.
Ezekiel 6:1-5
1And the word of the LORD came to me saying,
2″Son of man, set your face toward the mountains of Israel, and prophesy against them
3and say, ‘Mountains of Israel, listen to the word of the Lord GOD! Thus says the Lord GOD to the mountains, the hills, the ravines and the valleys: “Behold, I Myself am going to bring a sword on you, and I will destroy your high places.
4″So your altars will become desolate and your incense altars will be smashed; and I will make your slain fall in front of your idols.
5″I will also lay the dead bodies of the sons of Israel in front of their idols; and I will scatter your bones around your altars.
Me:
If God did not get offended at Israel’s idolatry then why did he get angry?
Let’s take a look at
Ananias and Sapphira and Acts 5:4-5
While it remained unsold, did it not remain your own? And after it was sold was it not under your control? Why is it that you have conceived this deed in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.
5. And as he heard these words, Ananias fell down and breathed his last and great fear came over all who heard it.
Me:
If God was not offended why did Ananias die?
I could add a lot more. God is not a tame lion (to use a CS Lewis quote.) he cannot be pigeonholed or fixed into a position. He is love but sometimes love get’s offended and watch out when it does because that’s when it can be made to appear as invisible.
psalm 119.165
165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
Me:
Don’t you love Hebrew poetry? It’s beautiful and if humanity were perfect or good true. But since humanity is neither of those that’s not always true and not even remotely true of God.
Anywho I could keep going here but that’s a waste of time. God will show you more of who he really is the more you study and priortize the prophets. You will see a God that gets offended, loves and heals, cries and mopes all because he loves.
You said:
The Bait of Satan is offence P .
Me:
the bait of Satan is temptation. it’s desire turned inward. If God did not get offended he would never have rebuked Satan while chilling in the desert. The demons would never have cowered in fear of judgement if God were incapable of being offended.
You:
Not offended P , not offended . Read your Bible , ask your Pastor , when you are offended you loose , you lost . If some one offended your wife , are you going to act Christ like ? Well we are suppose to , but man I have not arrived yet either . But I would not brag or consider it correct to beat the crap out of a man for insulting my wife , there is a correct response , and it does not mean to allow the abuse to go on .
Me:
Using your analogy who did I beat up?
You:
When someone says something negative about you based on your race , is that a sin , I believe it is , but if you treat that sin by being offended by it , you undermine God in the way he would have you handle it . Thats my point , and that is Bibical indeed .
Me:
No it’s not at least not all the time. Did you think Jesus was offended at death when Lazurus died? Or was it purely grief and the pain of loss when John writes Jesus wept?
Why are you so focused on the pain I went thru? I am over it. You read pain in the stories I read because those are painful confessions to make. No one likes to be dehumanized but you continue to think it defines me when it doesn’t. I think you have more of a problem w/ it then I do.
I just don’t want what I went thru to happen to others and so I fight against injustice where I see it. I am not perfect at it either but that’s not important. it’s more important to take a stand.
You said:
Ya think King handled it by being offended ? No its why even white boys like me think he was a great man . He had a way of making you see truth , see Christ by the way he handled hatred .
Me:
yes King got offended all the time. I hate how you “white boys” have neutered such an amazing man. Read letter to a Birmingham jail. Go and read it and then tell me if he got offended. Listen to his sermons about injustice and you will see him sounding more like me than not.
You:
Folks like Sharpton don’t do that for me , he makes mme see a people being offended and in return saying and promoting policies that promote division . Thats how I see it .
Me:
that’s because you wrote him off. Division exists in all people around the world. It’s time for you to take off the blinders and deal w/ it or not.
You:
Of course not to you , because If you can not put me in a box , it destroys everything you believe . You can only enlighten me my friend, you choose to put me in a box instead .
Me:
You don’t know everything I believe. As a matter of fact the only box I have you in is an ignorant box. But you sure do have me in a box don’t you?
In your view I am racist, arrogant, and angry. Only one of those is true. I can guarentee that I am neither angry or arrogant.
p



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Payshun

posted July 5, 2007 at 7:42 pm


Minor correction:
I can guarentee only one of those is true. I am neither racist or arrogant.
p



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 8:31 pm


Wayne your enlightened view on Affirmitive Action and your guilt about your Grand Pa is interesting . Sorry I thought Nixon was dishonest from the get go and I supported McGovern .
Your beliefs that I am one of you , makes you appear a bit in very much the mind set that is foreign to me . I am not one of you , I suggest to you my politics at times are not what I believe Christ would promote himself with regards to justice , many times my politics reflect a view of what I believe will ALLOW us to do the work of Christ and justice better . Or in the case of another person’s belief system to live as my neigbor equally . That is pretty much a conservative view point , and totally separate from the NAACP I agree . The NAACP has joined forces with gay alliance , abortion groups and a host of other left wing anti traditional belief organizations and have formed a fine and tuned political machine . I somehow do not see Jesus doing that either , I don;t see him haning out with the Enron Executives either.
I never saw government as being all that great in the justice department , but I can respect a view that promotes that belief in Affirmitive Action , I just don’t agree with it . Don’t see much respect coming back this way Wayne . Interestingly the folks disagreeing with me keep reminding me of the past injustices of government , but they want to use government to make it right .
Lets see , use the same method of raccial discrimination in reverse because now human nature is better ? Well I see the hope , I don’t agree with the method .
Why do they think now government will get better and make up for your Grand Pa . Because we live in a better enlightened culture , sorry have you visited a public school lately ?
I
The KKK believe they are entitled to treat people based on race from past injustices , they believe their white folks were mis treated , robbed of jobs , etc , so they carry it out in regards to actual abuse of another human being .
They rationalize their behavior by previous wrongs , real or fake whats the difference . Using discrimination to stop discrimination . Government can and will never be able to do that sucessfully , thats my politics .
You see I could agree almost everything what P wishes , except his theology appears to be totally off from mine , but that could be culture and e mail . I disagree with his politics , and he uses his race of being tormented because of it ,
As if I don;t know or unaware of our racist culture ? Interesting , I keep hearing this talk of admitting his racism , as if it is something out of his life , it appears his religion and politics are based on race .
I live in one of the most liberal states in the country , a few years ago we voted against Affirmitive Action . The same democrats who voted for Patty Murray and Maria Cantwell , and our democratic Governor stopped Affirmitive Action .
To me government usually gets in the way of justice , not provide it . But if you witnessed the politics and the exchanges , year republicans are the religious right bigots , democrats reach out to people . And yes , African Americans support democrats still in this state .
My politics are my political beliefs , they are not my Religious Beliefs . Closer to a liberaterian then a country club republican as what you appear to continue to come off as . .
If you can past that , treat me with equal respect , we can have a conversation that gets us to a better understanding . So far you appear not to be able to do that .
Jesus would support or come out against Affirmitive Action . I do not know how any man who Knows Christ could say for sure either way . Of course he would want the outcome of racial equality , but the method of inequality now of certain groups to make up for past inequality by different people . Well you support it , I understand your wish for justice , I do not agree with your methods . To suggest my intentions are anything but honorable is a debate closer .
Especially when the same side throws in abortion on demand , gay marriage , comprehensive sex education , etc . Sorry , your right and wrong of this issue is not as clear just because you say you support justice . To support justice appear to help support many other variables that hurt people ,families , destroy life God created , well , thats justice ?
Your right I might have missed what P was saying , but considering his comments and your conclussions I have to wonder your concern for parcing my comments in return . Again , you take the offence and you treat people in a way Christ would not do .
And by the way , King was against racial preferences . Obviously he had not thought about your Grand Pa enough ?
;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.



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Shawn

posted July 5, 2007 at 9:02 pm


“”oops.
Unfortunately those of my paler skin relatives have seen fit to fly from the city with very few exceptions.
………….
Seperate is not equal, never was, never will be.
If we continue to live and worship in a seperated, segregated manner we might as well be supremecists, at least that would be honest.”"
OK Wayne, since we’re being “honest” about your “paler skin relatives”, I guess race MUST have significance for your argument to mean anything at all. In other words, the first fact is here that you are black and that you see fit to criticize “white flight”. Oops.
Get with the program. It’s not “white flight” that is the negro-cause celeb anymore. What’s popular now is “gentrification,” where whites (not really just whites, but let’s go ahead and blame them, so we can make this a RACIAL issue) move back into black neighborhoods (it’s not just blacks, but lets make that generalization for political purposes), fix up the houses, sell them for more, demand police services and drive the “bums” out. Guess I’m an exception there too.
I go to a church that is very well integrated, thank you, but I have attended plenty of “all-black” churches here in the ATL, and I’ll tell you what: there is a reason whites don’t go there. Many points that the preachers make end with, “and you know how it is out there with _____________________(discrimination, despair, being cast out, being a minority, trying to make it in this big cruel country, whitey… take your pick). Honestly, some of the preaching sounds like introduction to a NA (Negroes Anonymous) meeting, “Hi, my name’s Shawn and I’m black…” Nearly every “lesson” is racially dependent upon several conclusions that have little or nothing to do with Gospel! I give Jesus more credit than that. While I don’t know the exact color of HIS skin, my guess is that he had something similar to say to all of us that did not depend upon the color of our skin.
That’s why I became Catholic. The sermons are focussed on the Word of God, while the Mass is focussed on the Body of Christ. At least they have the discipline (and I guess the mandate from the Pope) to stick to the Word of God more closely than most “black” non-Catholic churches I’ve been to, who all too often wander into some local or national social issue that may not be relevant five years hence. We even have a black Archbishop here.
I don’t know where you live, but your idea about separate and equal is greatly distorted by applying it to all of life. There is no such thing as purely equal in every category, and any attempt to make even a small group equal to another will end in failure and frustration. BROWN v. Board was meant to narrowly apply to funding of education and said nothing about working, worshipping (which is, at least, STILL free in this country) living in neighborhoods or anything more general than childhood education. We have had other laws since that have addressed most of these other things. Hopefully, we will never have laws that demand quotas of race in churches.
I know plenty of whites (though not nearly a majority) who don’t like to associate with black people, and I know plenty of black people (though not nearly a majority) who give each other pats on the back for recognizing this and complaining about it. Don’t expect one from me. Frankly, there are some white and black people I don’t like to hang around.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 5, 2007 at 9:09 pm


There are racists in both parties, dude. Fred Phelps is a Democrat, not that I am really intruiged by the “stick ‘em with the racists” argument. I could counter by simply evoking Amanda Marcotte and her merry band of lunatics. That doesn’t get at the issue. I can’t tell anyone how to vote.
Fred Phelps is not a politician by trade, and FWIW I have never heard him say anything racist (though I’m well aware of his homophobia — we get his screeds at my job).
The relationship between racist southerners and Goldwater has been confronted and discussed at length.
Apparently not enough, because you still don’t acknowledge that the Democrats of today have nothing to do with racist conservative policies.
Jesus would support or come out against Affirmitive Action. I do not know how any man who Knows Christ could say for sure either way. Of course he would want the outcome of racial equality, but the method of inequality now of certain groups to make up for past inequality by different people. Well you support it, I understand your wish for justice, I do not agree with your methods. To suggest my intentions are anything but honorable is a debate closer.
OK, let’s see what the LORD really has to say about it. From Matthew 5:
23″Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
The principle is beyond affirmative action — it’s about reconciliation. If you want to worship God but have “unfinished business” with others, you take care of that first. Racial injustice is one of those items of “unfinished business.”
And by the way, King was against racial preferences.
King actually was one of the earliest proponents of affirmative action, as he lived in a part of the country where clearly qualified people were locked out only because of race — in fact, he pastored a church of professional people who had to deal with racial segregation first-hand.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 9:30 pm


Lets see Rick you are saying this promotes Affimitive Action.
23″Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.”
Reconciliation Rick is between both parties correct . You are taking a Christian principle like this , and you are using it to support your views . I can understand honestly you using the word Of God to help you draw your conclussion , but then again You once told me that Thou Shall not Kill was in the Old Testament hence it was undone by Christ by his Two Commandments . I am trying to figure this out , because what is the difference in the way you promote scriptures then an abortion provider doing it ?
You make yourself look foolish .
King was for Affirmitive Action , so am I , King was against using quotas of any kind based on race to determine a job qualification . Big difference . Now stop using King or Christ or sypport your politics , they have nothing in common that I can see,
As if your interested in reconciliation . You want what you feel is owed to you . Nothing is owed to you or me by this country . Your racist politics are getting old .



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 10:18 pm


Me
First let me state something right off . I think its your job to enlighten me because you base your assumptions on race , hence that is racist .
You My inability to connect to your pain ?
Me
uhh , are you sure your not God ?
You
If God did not get offended at sin then jesus would not have been necessary. it’s obvious that you have taken verses from the bible and twisted them to describe God in a way that is not representative of his character. Let’s take a look at places where God was offended.
What are you making this up as you go to make a debate turn out like the Bible is on your side . Your a hoot .
Jesus came to Earth because God was offended . ????? Ever been to a footbal game , John 3″16
You:
If God did not get offended at Israel’s idolatry then why did he get angry?
Are you offended if your child does something that causes him or her to support say certain music “idolatry.
Are you offended by your child , maybe angry because they are doing something that is disrespectful if they are playing it in your house , or perhaps out of you love for your child you are concerned for their well being and the future consequences of hanging out in the crowd of people that glorify sexual immorality or whatever . Your not offended Pop , being a good dad sometimes means you get pissed and lay down the law . What makes you think God loves us less ?
You
If God was not offended why did Ananias die?
Me
He lied to the Holy Spirit . If I were you I would be concerned myself right now .
You
I could add a lot more. God is not a tame lion (to use a CS Lewis quote.) he cannot be pigeonholed or fixed into a position. He is love but sometimes love get’s offended and watch out when it does because that’s when it can be made to appear as invisible.
ME Could not find out where God was offended in any scripture you gave ? Search the Bible P , its not there . You are assuming your characteristic , a human characteristic that causes harm to others and yourself . and thinking God has to be “guilty” of that sin himself . If God was offended , why is the weord not there in Hebrew , Greek or any other language ?
I see some scriptures promoting purity and no excuses for it not happening , I see no times where God is going wa wa , my feelings are hurt . His actions never are because of us offending Him . never . If you ever been in a Bible teaching church you know full well God and sin do not go together . Can not be ..
psalm 119.165
165Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
You
Don’t you love Hebrew poetry? It’s beautiful and if humanity were perfect or good true. But since humanity is neither of those that’s not always true and not even remotely true of God.
Are you serious , you dismiss this as scripture ? Well Ok .
You
Anywho I could keep going here but that’s a waste of time. God will show you more of who he really is the more you study and priortize the prophets. You will see a God that gets offended, loves and heals, cries and mopes all because he loves.
Me , no that is not true , you are promoting your problem onto God’s .
you
the bait of Satan is temptation. it’s desire turned inward. If God did not get offended he would never have rebuked Satan while chilling in the desert. The demons would never have cowered in fear of judgement if God were incapable of being offended.
Me
ctually an excellent Book , Bait of Satan . The literature and study Guides are used by many Chruches , Black , White , both , troughout Evangelical Churches . Your comments have no substance . Its easy to understand , Christ wants you doing his will in you . If you are offended , you do your own will not his . Christ told us how many times to turn the cheek ? How many times ..
You
No it’s not at least not all the time. Did you think Jesus was offended at death when Lazurus died? Or was it purely grief and the pain of loss when John writes Jesus wept?
Me
Christ was offended ? Are you nuts ? Who offended him ?
You
yes King got offended all the time. I hate how you “white boys” have neutered such an amazing man. Read letter to a Birmingham jail. Go and read it and then tell me if he got offended. Listen to his sermons about injustice and you will see him sounding more like me than not.
Me I know how you hate , that is obvious . I suggest you read that letter in the Jail once again . More important how did King respond after he got out of hjail . Did he act like he was offended , no , it appeared to me he looked like he loved people . Looked like he said that’s all you got , well I am right back here , do it again if you must , but I will still be standing here speaking to the truth . No King is not for you , he is an American hero , the Holdiay is for all of us and he speaks to all of us . Nope the likes of you can’t have him .
You
that’s because you wrote him off. Division exists in all people around the world. It’s time for you to take off the blinders and deal w/ it or not.
Me
Defending the snake oil salemen Shapton , and I have blinders . Well you lost your crediatbility anyway before.
.
You
You don’t know everything I believe. As a matter of fact the only box I have you in is an ignorant box. But you sure do have me in a box don’t you?
Me . Well I got you in the racist box , that causes ignorance . Actually I may be ignorant , but racism has nothing to do with it .
YOU
In your view I am racist, arrogant, and angry. Only one of those is true. I can guarentee that I am neither angry or arrogant.
Minor correction:
I can guarentee only one of those is true. I am neither racist or arrogant.
ME
Well I agree in your case , it is a minor correction .



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Anonymous

posted July 5, 2007 at 10:28 pm


Not Offending Others
Causing others to stumble from the path to the Kingdom is the leading characteristic of the condemned, according to the Lord’s words in Mt. 13:41. Compare His words: “It is inevitable that offences come; but woe to that man by whom they come” with “The son of man goes as it is written of him; but woe to that man (Judas) by whom the son of man is betrayed!”. The Lord sees those who cause offence as being as bad as Judas. It’s serious. We are the body of Christ. It has been truly said that Jesus has no face, no hands, no legs on this earth apart from us. Positively, this means that we beseech men and women “in the face of Jesus Christ” (2 Cor. 2:10 RV). The logical retort to the first century preaching of a risen Jesus would have been: “OK, but where is He? Show me the body”. And the answer was: “Well here He is. Right in front of you. And in my sister over there, and in my brother here right next to me”. And this is why, against all odds, the Gospel spread- with no written New Testament initially, no dramatic appearances of the risen Christ to the doubting. Negatively, this means that others come to know the man Jesus, whom having not seen they come to love, through the testimony of His people. We are Him to this world. But once someone is converted, they ought to come to see the Lord Jesus for who He is, with David we should be able to say that we see the Lord [and he meant, according to the New Testament, the Lord Jesus] ever before our face, so that we will not be moved by anything (Acts 2:25). And yet if this stage is not gone through, the convert will continue perceiving Jesus as His brothers and sisters, with the result that he or she will think negatively about the Lord for the sake of those who are in Him. The goal of all our preaching cannot be merely baptism. It is the inculcation of a life in Christ, a personal knowing of Him. This is why the first piece of literature I like to give anyone is a Bible Companiondaily Bible reading planner. For they must discover it all for themselves, above all. So, to not give offence we must ever remind ourselves that we are Christ to our brethren. In us they see a reflection of Him.
Acting as He would act is really the whole key to not giving offence / causing others to stumble. He above all valued the human person to an extent no other human being has ever reached. When asked to pay the temple tax, which apparently few people paid in Galilee at that time, the Lord did so “lest we should offend them”- even though, as He explained to Peter, He was exempted from it, as the Son in His Father’s house (Mt. 17:27). He could have appealed to higher principle. But the Lord was worried that somehow He might make these apparently mercenary, conscience-less legalists to stumble in their potential faith. We would likely have given up with them as not worth it. But the Lord saw the potential for faith within them. And only a few verses later we are reading Him warning that those who offend the little ones who believe in Him will be hurled to destruction (Mt. 18:6). Could it not be that the Lord saw in those hard hearted, hateful legalists in the ecclesia of His day…little ones who potentially would believe in Him? And His positive, hopeful view of them paid off. For a year or so later those types were being baptized, along with a great company of priests. People change. Remember this, and given that fact, try to hope for the best, as your Lord does with you. People can change, and they do change, even those whom at present you just can’t abide in the brotherhood.
But the Lord continues His theme of giving offence to others when He says: “It must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh! [The Lord must have said this after such careful introspection, knowing that He was the rock of offence to many, and that Jewry were to be ‘offended’ by Him]. Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot makes you a cause of stumbling [i.e. to others], cut them off…” or else you will be condemned (Mt. 18:7 Gk.). This is how important it is to search our lives and see what may cause others offence. And, in His relentless way, the Lord continues: “See that ye despise not one of these little ones” (Mt. 18:10), the little ones He has Himself just been so careful not to offend, by paying up His taxes. We offend people by ‘despising’ them. And, on and on and on, Jesus incisively takes His teaching further- in the parable of the shepherd who seeks the lost sheep. To not seek others’ salvation is to despise them. We may not think we are despiteful people. But effectively, in His eyes, we are…if we neglect to actively seek for their salvation until we find it. To not offend others is thus made parallel to seeking their salvation. And the shepherd seeking the lost sheep matches the man who plucks out his eye and cuts off his hand lest they offend others. So you see the parallels throughout Matthew 18:
Lest we offend them
Pay the temple tax, go fishing, make the effort
Lest we offend others and are cast into condemnation
Pluck out our eye, cut off our hands and feet
Lest we offend the little ones and are cast into the sea
Receive the little ones as if they are Christ, see the Christ in them
Don’t despise others
Go out looking for the lost sheep with unlimited effort
Lest we are cast “to the tormentors”
Give unlimited forgiveness to your brother, try to “gain your brother”
The self-willed effort we must make to not offend our brother is quite something. Just imagine looking at yourself in the mirror, wedging your finger nails under your eye socket, and pulling out your eye. This is the conscious effort we must make not to offend, and thereby to save. It’s really quite something. Note that the parallels tabled above show that to not offend is to save. If we seek above all the salvation of others, then we will not offend them. We will, quite simply, care for them as the Lord cares for us.
Respecting Others
To not offend others, to seek to save them, means that we will not despise them. 1 Cor. 11:22 accuses some brethren of despising others [s.w. Mt. 18:10] in the ecclesia by “shaming” them. If we perceive the value of persons, the meaning of others personhood, we will not shame them in our words, gestures, body language or actions. No “shameful speaking” should proceed out of our mouths (Col. 3:8 RV). Of course, the true believer in Christ cannot be ashamed- for whilst some stumble on Christ, the rock of offence, the believer in Him will not be shamed (Rom. 9:33; 10:11- s.w. 1 Cor. 11:22). For his or her sure hope of the Kingdom “maketh not [to be] ashamed” (Rom. 5:5). Again, if our hope of the Kingdom is real to us, nobody will make us ashamed, will in reality make us feel despised, or make us stumble. The reality ahead will transfix us so that all human unkindness toward us gains no permanent lodgment in our hearts. We do well to review our way of talking and acting to ensure we do not shame others. Think again of the shaming effect of phrases like “No true Christian smokes”. “No brother of Christ worthy of the name ever uses bad language”. What of the brother who smokes, the sister who does sadly swear under her breath in frustration…? These are none the less brethren who have believed in the Lord and are secured in Him, sitting in exalted, Heavenly places in Christ. They are therefore and thereby every bit equal to the brother who confidently makes those statements from a platform. Quite simply, we should not speak nor act in a way that shames or demeans another person. Carefully consider whether we have to use phrases like “As we all know…”, “No true Christian will…”, “No Christian worthy of the name can…”. They may be valid for use in the right contexts. But, just think about it. Consider your ways. Let sensitivity to others be the controlling rule of your speaking and being. We all tend to have pet phrases or set patterns of behaviour when we meet certain views or personality types who irritate us. We need to examine these, truly willing to pluck out the eye that causes offence. And when we feel we are truly in the right and they are wrong, then is the time for the unlimited forgiveness and seeking of the lost until we find them- with that positive, seeking, hopeful spirit of the Lord.
Receiving Others
To not offend others we must “receive” them (Mt. 18:5). It is written of Jesus that when crowds of materialistic, fascinated people followed Him, “He received them , and spake unto them of the Kingdom” (Lk. 9:11). He didn’t just turn round and read them a lecture about the Kingdom. “He received them”. Presumably Luke means to reflect how he perceived something in the Lord’s body language that was receiving of that crowd of peasants- whom we would likely have written off as just dumb groupies with no more than surface level interest. And we too must receive one another, even as the Lord has received us (Rom. 15:7)- and this includes receiving him who is even weak in the faith (Rom. 14:1). We should be looking for every reason to receive and fellowship our brethren, rather than reasons not to.
The essence of living this kind of life is the cross of Christ. Paul brings this out in Rom. 14:21-15:3: “It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak…We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification. For even Christ pleased not himself; but, as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me”. The quotation is from a Psalm which refers to the crucifixion of Jesus. Yet Paul applies this to us, in our bearing with the weaknesses of our brethren and seeking not to offend them. For this is the living out of the crucifixion life in ours. This is putting meaning into words, reality into the regular action of taking bread and wine in identity with that sacrifice. Sensitively bearing with our brethren, not doing anything that weakens or offends them, but rather building them up by our patience and tolerance of their scruples and limited perceptions. This is the cross, for us. The more we realize the height of the calling, the more even like our Lord we balk at what we are really being asked to do. It is so hard not to offend others and to commit ourselves to only building them up. As hard, in barest essence, as the cross of Calvary, on a day in April, on a Friday afternoon, about 1970 years ago



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wayne

posted July 5, 2007 at 11:11 pm


Sorry for the mix up Payshun. My error. Like I said, I don’t always use my eyes well enough.
Mick, I wish you well.
Rick,Payshun you’re both good guys. It would be great to meet sometime, I know one day we will.
To Shawn who wrote; “OK Wayne, since we’re being “honest” about your “paler skin relatives”, I guess race MUST have significance for your argument to mean anything at all. In other words, the first fact is here that you are black and that you see fit to criticize “white flight”.
I want you to know what a complement you have given me, if in fact I have read this correctly, and you really think I am “Black”.
Payshun was right, we do all look alike.



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mick Sheldon

posted July 5, 2007 at 11:36 pm


Thank you Wayne , you too .
Say hi to Rick and P for me .
;0)



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kevin s.

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:20 am


“Fred Phelps is not a politician by trade, and FWIW I have never heard him say anything racist (though I’m well aware of his homophobia — we get his screeds at my job).”
He was actually a prominent civil rights attorney. He isn’t racist, you are correct. My point is that you can find all sorts of terrible people, and pretend that they are representative of an ideology.
“Apparently not enough, because you still don’t acknowledge that the Democrats of today have nothing to do with racist conservative policies.”
I think they have plenty to do with racist policies. We just disagree about what those are. You are correct that Democrats have nothing to do with conservative policies, which stands to reason.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:30 am


Reconciliation Rick is between both parties correct. You are taking a Christian principle like this, and you are using it to support your views. I can understand honestly you using the word Of God to help you draw your conclussion , but then again You once told me that Thou Shall not Kill was in the Old Testament hence it was undone by Christ by his Two Commandments. I am trying to figure this out, because what is the difference in the way you promote scriptures then an abortion provider doing it?
First, I don’t know what in the world this discussion has to do with abortion. And BTW, the “two commandments” are also straight from the OT; Jesus just brought them up do date when he was asked what the “greatest commandment” was as a shortcut to doing the will of God. So your beef actually is with the Word of God itself, not with how I use it.
Now stop using King or Christ or support your politics, they have nothing in common that I can see … As if your interested in reconciliation. You want what you feel is owed to you. Nothing is owed to you or me by this country. Your racist politics are getting old.
Mick — please; your foot is going further and further down your throat. For openers, while King supported affirmative action he died before he could give specific remedies, so you don’t have any idea what he would have supported. And then, I’m not talking about what I’m owed — except respect, something you at this point seem incapable of giving to anyone who disagrees with you. If that offends you … well, that’s not my problem.
You see, we’ve come to the major issue in this whole debate. Conservatives want to come in and boss everyone around the way they’ve done for the last quarter-century because they feel they’re immune to criticism, almost worthy or worship. Well, Mick, those days are over and it’s time to look honestly at what the right wing has done — or not done — in the issue of race relations. And as I’ve said time and time again, because of their past actions and current attitudes, conservatives have NO authority to speak on the subject.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:38 am


My point is that you can find all sorts of terrible people, and pretend that they are representative of an ideology.
Except that this has nothing to do with our current discussion.
I think they have plenty to do with racist policies. We just disagree about what those are. You are correct that Democrats have nothing to do with conservative policies, which stands to reason.
I don’t see how giving formerly locked-out people a chance to participate in the system is racist. The only people who really are complaining about that is those folks who feel “entitled” to what they want and unaware of and apathetic toward that history. And besides, if you’re angry because someone “less qualified” goes ahead of you, your anger should be directed not at affirmative action programs but at the system that needed to be adjusted because of institutionalized injustice. Here’s one thing that’s not often said: You probably benefited too, as Wayne alluded to earlier — but in ways you don’t realize.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 6, 2007 at 1:54 am


Rick
The beef I have is not with the word of God , its someone that uses it to promote their views , like you do , that is called a religious spirit .
Thou Shall Not Kill and the Ten Commandments I brought up to you along time ago , as now you come up with some cultish remark defending it . No Rick , Christ believed in Thou Shall Not Kill . Murder is the closer translation . He supported it , I brought that up to you in a discussion and you denied the importance of the Scriptures from the Old Testament . At that time you did not want to allow the Bible to be a criteria saying abortion was wrong . Have some self respect for your previous comments , you are looking foolish in my eyes . Do you forget making them ? I do not know know how you can promote and pick and choose your Bibiical beliefs , abortion is OK , but Affirmitive Action is important ? Your having no consistency or sharing any basis for exchange that explains such weird views . , its as though you randomly flip to suit your course .
YOU
For openers, while King supported affirmative action he died before he could give specific remedies, so you don’t have any idea what he would have supported.
ME
That means neither do you . He is an American Hero . People like to think Thomas jefferson agreed with them , quoting King and using him as an example is because he is an American Hero .
Whats your problem , what I can only quote or use use White American heros ?
My points of the first Black Reps being republican , well they may have been proped up by Republican Industrialist , but if you study them , I can share some links for you if you wish , you will find them to be men of God , brave , and despite being proped up as you say , they had some guts and a strong Reliance on God .
That to me is an examople I want for my kids to see.
The Republican Party being engulfed in Scandal and corruption during the Grant Adminstration the democrats took over and African Americans lost about 100 years of political support because of it .
You
You see, we’ve come to the major issue in this whole debate. Conservatives want to come in and boss everyone around the way they’ve done for the last quarter-century because they feel they’re immune to criticism, almost worthy or worship.
Me . Your major issue , you have no authority over my issues . . Giving jobs based on someone’s race is what everyone at one time would have considered Civil Rights , then we agree giving sonmeone a job and basing it on race is wrong . Thank you , whats your problem then .
You
And then, I’m not talking about what I’m owed — except respect, something you at this point seem incapable of giving to anyone who disagrees withyou
ME
When you are talking about respect , why would you follow it with this statement . LOL See my aboive statement telling YOU that you have no authority . We appear to be authoritiveless in our views .
YOU
Well, Mick, those days are over and it’s time to look honestly at what the right wing has done — or not done — in the issue of race relations. And as I’ve said time and time again, because of their past actions and current attitudes, conservatives have NO authority to speak on the subject.
Me
Good one rick . Your opinion is more important then mine , because I am a conservative . hey Rick if I vote for gay Marriage can I have an opinion ? Or how about if I loose my job ? I mean just what do I have to do , oh believe in what you believe , then I have a valid opinion . Then I have autority , no then I have a guilty conscience . I see , then I also have authority .
The Public school my kids use to attend have gay clubs , they have a health clinic that hands out condoms they are told to stop the abortions because of stupid conservatives like me promoting abstinence and ignornat health information. .
Liberalism has been in the back seat ? Not since the the summer of love my foolish friend . From the 60s we have been loosing traditional common beliefs that were accepted by all of us . You jumped on that band wagon , and those who ride on it have to answer for it .
My public school hands out brochures about three types of sex , vaginal , oral and anal . None is different then the other , all are safe if done properly , and none of the safe sex techiques involve marriage .
When I brought that up I was told I made a good point . But as you have stated , I had no authority to change the cultuure or what is being taught . Don’t tell me about conservatives running things , not in my life time .
Anyone that says people of my Faith , and of my church have been politically running things is a liar . If that offends you I am sorry , but you talk in circles , and you make no points .
I am guilty of taking the offence Rick ,.
I guess when I can handle the accusations and stereotypes I will try again . But you have strange views , like I or the folks I support have been running things . People that go to my church ask me many times who to vote for . You crack me up , We feel overwhelmed with the cultural shift and the times . People thinking we have these decoder rings and part of right wing conspiracies , well . God Bless you .
Love in Christ ..
Mick



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 6, 2007 at 10:37 am


The beef I have is not with the word of God, its someone that uses it to promote their views, like you do, that is called a religious spirit.
Mick, don’t even go there — some evangelical churches, ministries et cetera wouldn’t even accept me back in the day for speaking the message I’ve written on this blog, and based on the post you and others have written, some still won’t. Thank Him that I have never cared how that message was received.
Me. Your major issue, you have no authority over my issues. Giving jobs based on someone’s race is what everyone at one time would have considered Civil Rights, then we agree giving sonmeone a job and basing it on race is wrong. Thank you, what’s your problem then.
My problem is the sense of entitlement that every conservative on this blog has consistently displayed. You really do think you’re superior than the rest of us and act that way, and that doesn’t fly here anymore. That attitude is the reason that modern conservatism is collapsing as I write, even in the church.
When I brought that up I was told I made a good point. But as you have stated, I had no authority to change the cultuure or what is being taught. Don’t tell me about conservatives running things, not in my life time.
Because when you did so it was only for YOUR authority and benefit, not that of anyone else and certainly not God. And you accuse ME of having the “spirit of religion”? Please — that’s the kind of thing that give Christ and His church a bad name.
We feel overwhelmed with the cultural shift and the times.
And that shows a lack of faith in God, that you feel you have to “take control” — but, in the process, you have become as worldly as the people you criticize. We Christians are called not to be powerful but faithful, and I personally will speak and live His Word to the best of my ability no matter what anyone else feels. That’s actually the most efficient way to do evangelism because at that point we’ll be so different from the world that folks will actually become curious.
As I have mentioned in previous posts, I had to repent of my own racism back in the 1970s but in those days was rejected by my own people in the process. They didn’t understand that I really believed in racial reconciliation and desired to live that out in a practical sense, but now that it’s become somewhat of a hot topic it turns out that I was way ahead of the game.
Now, you’re clearly offended when I say that doctrinaire conservatives have no authority to speak about dealing with racism. But against whom did MLK Jr. have to fight in the 1950s and ’60s? Who today are the biggest critics of any effort to help the formerly disadvantaged, especially when government is involved? History tells us the answer, and their denial as such not only doesn’t solve the problem but even aggravates it. Their “solutions” keep them in control, which was the problem in the first place.
And as for “affirmative action,” as people have said more eloquently than I, it’s not enough to have the chains taken off after all that time — there has to be a way for the marginalized to catch up, and I mean NOW. If you can come up with a better solution let’s hear it, but as a campus newspaper columnist (who grew up in the South) who admitted that she hated it wrote some years ago, it’s the best we can do until we can come up with something better.



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Anonymous

posted July 6, 2007 at 12:21 pm


“I don’t see how giving formerly locked-out people a chance to participate in the system is racist. The only people who really are complaining about that is those folks who feel “entitled” to what they want and unaware of and apathetic toward that history.”
Oh? Introduce mandatory bussing anywhere in this country, and see how well it goes over with the populace. There are plenty of people who are very interested in history who can see past the hijinks of racial bean counters.
Of course, the “everyone who disagrees with me is doing so because of x” line of argumentation is impossible to engage. The only possible response is the equivalent of saying “nuh-uh.” It doesn’t get you any closer to making your case.
Thus, racism goes from a cultural blemish to be eradicated, to an opportunistic political bludgeon.



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Payshun

posted July 6, 2007 at 3:33 pm


First off Mick God delivered me from the dead and dying evangelical fold a long time ago. I am a contemplative. You won’t know what that is but it has connections in every aspect of the Christian tree.
Coptics have them, the Orthodox, the Catholics and heck even Protestants have them in the Quaker movement. We are people committed to deeper understanding of the kingdom and intimacy (union) w/ the father.
So do Wiki search on it or something then you will at least have heard of it. I personally don’t really like evangelicalism that much because it stunts the growth of believers. But whatever. I realize people get something out of it so it really doesn’t matter what I think as long as God brings his people to himself.
You:
First let me state something right off . I think its your job to enlighten me because you base your assumptions on race , hence that is racist .
Me:
You still don’t know the meaning of the word. Using race in and of itself as a guide doesn’t make one racist. What makes one racist is using race negatively to perpetuate the lie that someone is superior or inferior. That has not been done in any of my writings so that means I am not racist but hey if you want to keep making up your own meaning of the word go ahead.
You:
Jesus came to Earth because God was offended . ????? Ever been to a footbal game , John 3″16
Me:
John 3:19-20
You:
Are you offended if your child does something that causes him or her to support say certain music “idolatry.
Are you offended by your child , maybe angry because they are doing something that is disrespectful if they are playing it in your house , or perhaps out of you love for your child you are concerned for their well being and the future consequences of hanging out in the crowd of people that glorify sexual immorality or whatever . Your not offended Pop , being a good dad sometimes means you get pissed and lay down the law . What makes you think God loves us less ?
Me:
You made a really strange assumption. never once have I said or implied that he loved us less. Why did you assume that I did.
Your original point was that you said God doesn’t get offended. I showed he did. Read Ezekiel and tell me God doesn’t get offended.
As a matter of fact here:
Ezekiel 4
11″The water you drink shall be the sixth part of a hin by measure; you shall drink it from time to time.
12″You shall eat it as a barley cake, having baked it in their sight over human (B)dung.”
13Then the LORD said, “Thus will the sons of Israel eat their bread (C)unclean among the nations where I will banish them.”
14But I said, “(D)Ah, Lord GOD! Behold, I have (E)never been defiled; for from my youth until now I have never eaten what (F)died of itself or was torn by beasts, nor has any (G)unclean meat ever entered my mouth.”
15Then He said to me, “See, I will give you cow’s dung in place of human dung over which you will prepare your bread.”
16Moreover, He said to me, “Son of man, behold, I am going to (H)break the staff of bread in Jerusalem, and they will eat bread by (I)weight and with anxiety, and drink water by (J)measure and in horror,
17because bread and water will be scarce; and they will be appalled with one another and (K)waste away in their iniquity.
Me:
What were all the emotions God was feeling when he told Ezekiel that?
Ezekiel 8:3-10
4And behold, the (E)glory of the God of Israel was there, like the appearance which I saw in the plain.
5Then He said to me, “Son of man, (F)raise your eyes now toward the north ” So I raised my eyes toward the north, and behold, to the north of the altar gate was this (G)idol of jealousy at the entrance.
6And He said to me, “Son of man, do you see what they are doing, the great (H)abominations which the house of Israel are committing here, so that I would be far from My sanctuary? But yet you will see still greater abominations.”
7Then He brought me to the entrance of the court, and when I looked, behold, a hole in the wall.
8He said to me, “Son of man, now (I)dig through the wall.” So I dug through the wall, and behold, an entrance.
9And He said to me, “Go in and see the wicked abominations that they are committing here.”
10So I entered and looked, and behold, every form of creeping things and beasts and detestable things, with all the idols of the house of Israel, were carved on the wall all around.
11Standing in front of them were (J)seventy (K)elders of the house of Israel, with Jaazaniah the son of Shaphan standing among them, each man with his (L)censer in his hand and the fragrance of the cloud of incense rising.
12Then He said to me, “Son of man, do you see what the elders of the house of Israel are committing in the dark, each man in the room of his carved images? For they say, ‘(M)The LORD does not see us; the LORD has (N)forsaken the land.’”
13And He said to me, “Yet you will see still greater abominations which they are committing.”
14Then He brought me to the entrance of the (O)gate of the LORD’S house which was toward the north; and behold, women were sitting there weeping for Tammuz.
15He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Yet you will see still greater abominations than these.”
16Then He brought me into the inner court of the LORD’S house. And behold, at the entrance to the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men with their (P)backs to the temple of the LORD and their faces toward the east; and (Q)they were prostrating themselves eastward toward the sun.
17He said to me, “Do you see this, son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations which they have committed here, that they have (R)filled the land with violence and (S)provoked Me repeatedly? For behold, they are putting the twig to their nose.
18″Therefore, I indeed will deal in wrath. My eye will have no pity nor will I spare; and (T)though they cry in My ears with a loud voice, yet I will not listen to them.”
Me:
What was God feeling? what feelings was God sharing w/ the mighty prophet Ezekiel?
You:
He lied to the Holy Spirit . If I were you I would be concerned myself right now .
Me:
What did I lie about? I am still here.
You:
Could not find out where God was offended in any scripture you gave ? Search the Bible P , its not there . You are assuming your characteristic , a human characteristic that causes harm to others and yourself . and thinking God has to be “guilty” of that sin himself . If God was offended , why is the weord not there in Hebrew , Greek or any other language ?
Me:
Because God chose more colorful ways to depict things that offended him. Like the parable of the unjust steward. jesus used it to show that we must show grace to all which is why I am still in the conversation. I can freely admit I came on really harsh and was not gentle at all. Jesus was like that at times w/ his enemies. he did call them white washed tombs, pits of vipers…
I took that approach w/ you because I find your theology and ideas about race damaging to the marginalized. You don’t care about the poor or about the history of injustice of our land and do next to nothing to make things better. So I have a hard time being nicer to you. I admit that’s wrong. I am sorry. I will endeavor to try.
p



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Payshun

posted July 6, 2007 at 3:55 pm


You:
I see some scriptures promoting purity and no excuses for it not happening , I see no times where God is going wa wa , my feelings are hurt . His actions never are because of us offending Him . never . If you ever been in a Bible teaching church you know full well God and sin do not go together . Can not be ..
Me:
Then read Jeremiah 9 and become enlightened.
Yah because you think being offended is sinful. It’s not. It’s how we act from offense that is sinful.
God weeps thru his prophet and let’s read the verse:
Oh that my head were waters
And my eyes a fountain of tears,
That I might weep day and night
For the slain of the daughter of my people!
verse 10:
“For the mountains I will take up a weeping and wailing,And for the pastures of the wilderness a dirge,Because they are laid waste so that no one passes through,And the lowing of the cattle is not heard;Both the birds of the sky and the beasts have fled; they are gone.
God’s love is so lavish that he weeps and mourns for his people. So yah you can think that’s wrong and all because your bible believing (worshipping) church taught you but then you would be ignoring the dirth of emotion the Lord poured thru his servant and friend Jeremiah. God wept thru that man and he continues to for all mankind. Ask the Holy Spirit to show you that if you doubt it.
You:
Are you serious , you dismiss this as scripture ? Well Ok .
Me:
Dismiss nothing. I just know that David rarely enjoyed peace his entire reign. If he was not fighting in wars, he was an unjust king, if he was sleeping around and killing his soldiers, he was doing nothing to parent his children (resulting in his daughter’s rape by her half brother and his death) and then subsequent civil war w/ his older son. I am not saying that David did not know peace at all. But he loved the law a lot and you can’t tell me he always trusted peace, if he did then why did he do what he did? Did he forget that?
You:
no that is not true , you are promoting your problem onto God’s .
Me:
Now that’s a little presumptious and silly. I wish that were true. I wish God did not have a problem w/ injustice and racism. I wish God just did not care but he does. And since he does I do. Oh and I prayed long and hard about it too.
You:
ctually an excellent Book , Bait of Satan . The literature and study Guides are used by many Chruches , Black , White , both , troughout Evangelical Churches . Your comments have no substance . Its easy to understand , Christ wants you doing his will in you . If you are offended , you do your own will not his . Christ told us how many times to turn the cheek ? How many times ..
Me:
Well I am not an evangelical so I won’t be reading it. Sorry.
Do you even know what turning the other cheek meant during the time of Jesus (not currently but the original context for what he was saying?)
You:
Christ was offended ? Are you nuts ? Who offended him ?
Me:
You don’t read very well do you? You don’t have to be offended by a person. You can be offended by something sad. You can feel like death itself is an offense to God who is life.
Regarding King you are a fool. But his words will speak long after this discussion is over w/.
I practice what he taught, non-violence. I don’t hit anyone to get what I want. I shame no one to get ahead. So again the question is how can you claim part of a legacy you are not living out in your own life?
You:
Defending the snake oil salemen Shapton , and I have blinders . Well you lost your crediatbility anyway before.
Me:
Too bad God disagrees w/ you.
You:
Well I agree in your case , it is a minor correction .
Me:
yah because being angry at injustice is so wrong.
p



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Payshun

posted July 6, 2007 at 3:57 pm


First off Mick God delivered me from the dead and dying evangelical fold a long time ago. I am a contemplative. You won’t know what that is but it has connections in every aspect of the Christian tree.
Coptics have them, the Orthodox, the Catholics and heck even Protestants have them in the Quaker movement. We are people committed to deeper understanding of the kingdom and intimacy (union) w/ the father.
So do Wiki search on it or something then you will at least have heard of it. I personally don’t really like evangelicalism that much because it stunts the growth of believers. But whatever. I realize people get something out of it so it really doesn’t matter what I think as long as God brings his people to himself.



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Mick Sheldon

posted July 6, 2007 at 4:42 pm


Thank you if your still there . For explaining the contemplative belief system .
Mick



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 6, 2007 at 4:46 pm


Oh? Introduce mandatory bussing anywhere in this country, and see how well it goes over with the populace. There are plenty of people who are very interested in history who can see past the hijinks of racial bean counters.
That has absolutely nothing to do with why many people oppose bussing. The truth is — and the very same argument has been made against “school choice” — that “We moved to this neighborhood/sent our kids[s] to this school so that we wouldn’t have to deal with them.” You can figure out who they are.
Thus, racism goes from a cultural blemish to be eradicated, to an opportunistic political bludgeon.
In your case they are apparently one and the same.



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Anonymous

posted July 6, 2007 at 5:00 pm


You
yah because being angry at injustice is so wrong.
me .
No being angry at Injustice is normal , Righteous Anger at injustice is Holy , being offended by it is a sin because your response, “anger” , is no longer holy it is built into self . It is selfish and from your own hurt , That not only logical , its human nature . To you taking the offence is the same for a Christian or non . Because its part of our fallen nature . In that , we share being offended with the KKK or the Quakers . How we respond when someone offends us is what separates us from the un Godly . It is suppose to anyway .
To me this could have been a difference of opinion , I do not understand your religion or you concept of God . But your idea of justice includes stating anothers religious beliefs have no merit , obviously any political movement you are involved in going to be very small .
But if you are concerned at all about understanding a view point , if you just listened it makes sense . If you punch me in the nose , do I hit you back , do I walk away , do I react right away , do I wait a moment . Taking the offence means I would do what is best for me , that is how The Christian sees it , Evangelical Faith looks at it as we should be responding not reacting . . To be angry at injustice , is as Bibical as you can get , my point , ad nauseum , is I don’t see you doing that either .
Thats my problem , not really , obviously neither of ours .



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Payshun

posted July 6, 2007 at 5:35 pm


How is it selfish from my own heart? Please explain. Oh and I hate to keep repeating myself here but I forgave all those that sinned against me so really don’t understand what you are talking about here. you sense hurt in my posts because I am honest about PAST wounds.
I was also molested as a child but I bare the woman that did it no ill will or malice. Did me saying that show my anger or malice even though it hurt me tremendously?
I am an advocate of non-violence. I don’t want to strike back w/ physical force or use the gospel to shame you into my view. My goal is to encourage, challenge and even exhort you to go into the city and make a positive change. Experience the hurt of rejection and see if you can stand in the fire of it. What’s so hard to understand about that?
p



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 6, 2007 at 6:04 pm


But your idea of justice includes stating another’s religious beliefs have no merit, obviously any political movement you are involved in going to be very small.
That comment reminds me of what Rod Parsley, a staunch Republican and a “patriot pastor” in Columbus, Ohio, said on ABC News Nightline during the last general election campaign. He noted a “liberal” religious group had few followers while his people were more organized and movitated. Well, the GOP, as you may know, was beaten pretty badly in that state. (So much for “numbers.”) Jesus also said, “By their fruits you will recognize them.”
Evangelical Faith looks at it as we should be responding not reacting. To be angry at injustice, is as Bibical as you can get, my point, ad nauseum, is I don’t see you doing that either.
While I am myself an evangelical, Payshun is right in suggesting that much of “evangelical faith” is out of touch with reality. Also, evangelicals of the ideologically conservative stripe as a whole would have no idea what justice is even if you hit them over the head with it — and when you try to tell or show them you’re denounced as a “liberal” and often have your faith questioned. I’ve been there and experienced that.



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the lone voice of reason

posted July 10, 2007 at 1:47 am


affirmative action should have been buried along with the “N” word!



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 11, 2007 at 12:24 pm


affirmative action should have been buried along with the “N” word!
The lone voice of reason — Not. As long as race remains a factor, which means as long as minorities don’t have the same opportunities as the majority, we will need it. If you can come up with a better system in the meantime, let’s have it.



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Rick Nowlin

posted July 11, 2007 at 1:59 pm


One example is when Reagan was involved in sports, his team was going to compete. The hotel would not allow the black man on the team stay in the same hotel. So then the kid Reagan brought the young man to his house to stay. Those stories are frequent and not at unusual in the life of Roanald Reagan. People that knew him know this.
Mick, I just saw this story, and it doesn’t impress me in the least because that same scene could have been played out anywhere in the South, where individual white Southerners could, and probably did, show kindness in this way without the knowledge of their neighbors or the authorities. But it’s another thing entirely to stand up publicly for justice and support actual policies that effect real change. Reagan, as governor of California and as President of the United States, did neither of these things.
Look at it this way. You may know a person who has a passion for “girls in trouble,” who works with then and also discourages abortion (and is also functionally “pro-life”). Yet you likely would be intolerant of this person if he or she said that abortion should still remain legal. It’s the same concept.



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