God's Politics

God's Politics


Nontando Hadebe: ‘The Passion of the Christ’ in Zimbabwe’s Context

posted by gp_intern

Last week I watched The Passion of the Christ – it was my third time watching the film. Each time I watch the film a different facet of the suffering of Christ is revealed to me. This time I watched it in the context of Zimbabwe, a country that is being beaten and brutalized by its leaders in their quest for ultimate power.

What more can one say in the face of ongoing suppression of opposition, harassment, and violent treatment of those who seek justice and a collapse of the economy with an inflation of 2700%? Every item of news and story feels like a lashing and beating and it just goes on and on. As I watched the film, the suffering of Jesus merged with the sufferings in Zimbabwe, and then when all seemed lost and hopeless, the resurrection brought in the first sign of hope against all probabilities.

After the film, we discussed hope as something that does not ignore suffering but arises in the midst of suffering. It is clear to all that the current government is responsible for the crisis in the country and that for progress there needs to be democracy, free elections, and new leadership – but the journey to this is not clear. However, we know from history, especially in Africa, that replacing leaders is no guarantee of democracy. What is next for us?

There are many who are doing their part, faithfully working here in South Africa and sending their earnings to Zimbabwe to support families. Others are involved in civic societies to bring awareness. Others are giving to those in need, and some are praying. Many have accused Zimbabweans of apathy, but I have yet to meet anyone who is not doing something to help their relatives or involved in some form of justice-making. Yet these good works are limited by the lack of a “clearly defined and articulated unifying dream,” and leadership that grips the soul and imaginations of people and inspires hope and justice for a truly new Zimbabwe for all.

Pray for us that we as Christians, the people of the resurrection, may participate in the creation of new thoughts, dreams, and visions for Zimbabwe.


Nontando Hadebe, a former Sojourners intern, is originally from Zimbabwe and is now pursuing graduate studies in theology in South Africa.



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 4:38 pm


So – how long are we going to let the current administration of Zimbabwe be in power? How long are we going to let the UN give money to Mr. “M” for releaf only to find out it ends up in his own pockets? When will the sanctions start and will they be effective? Sojo has now brought to our attention Darfur and Zimbabwe, what area of the world will be next for our discussion? What will Sojo and others be willing to do so that change happens. I know that anything millitary is out of the question as none of this fits ‘just war’ – OK, but what is it going to take to make a change and will we be able to see it through? Sojo – you have not written about an oppressed country in South America or S.E. Asia. Mr. “M” in Zimbabwe is a crook, murderer, rapist, etc. So what are the world police, the UN, going to do so that the citizens in that country are going to have justice? If history plays out like it has in the past – MOTHING will be done, how sad. Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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Wolverine

posted April 10, 2007 at 5:06 pm


It sounds to me like the love of Christ compels us to, among other things, send some competent monetarist economists to Zimbabwe to get their inflation under control. Wolverine



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kevin s.

posted April 10, 2007 at 5:43 pm


Moderatelad, I think ideologies of all stripes are inconsistent with respect to how to deal with disastrous leadership in other countries and cruel dictators. Unfortunately, the situation is always going to be imperfect.However, it would seem that there should be stronger international pressure for Mugabe to step down, and the U.S. could intervene in the manner Wolverine suggests.Sad situation.



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justintime

posted April 10, 2007 at 6:08 pm


Robert Mugabe ignores all intelligent advice, just as does George W. Bush. But sending monetarists to Zimbabwe would be just another disaster compounding the disaster of Mugabe. What a stupid idea! Look at what monetarists did to the former Soviet Union. Russia is an economic basket case while China is a major economic power. When Zimbabwe is free from the corrupt and incompetent Mugabe, Amartya Sen would be my nominee for economic advisor. May God have mercy on the people of Zimbabwe. .



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 6:38 pm


justintime | 04.10.07 – 12:13 pm | #When Zimbabwe is free from the corrupt and incompetent Mugabe, But how is that going to happen? What is going to make him leave office – the UN? The UN is giving him money even as he is raping his country financally for his own gain. The people can not rise up against him – they don’t have any weapons – what little they had – he took away. What sanctions could be put against his country that will do any good – the only people that will get hurt are the ones that are dying already. Diplomatically – he has flipped of the world already – you think he cares what the US, UK or any other country in the world say…NOT! Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 6:42 pm


Wolverine | 04.10.07 – 11:11 am | #send some competent monetarist economists to Zimbabwe to get their inflation under control. You think that Mugabe would let them in to his country and even if he did – would he do what they suggested. Mugabe has shown himself to be immoral when it comes to the people with in his boundries – he is going to accept people from other countries – I don’t think so.All our talking will acomplish nothing.Later – .



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 6:45 pm


justintime | 04.10.07 – 12:13 pm | #thank you so much for the cheap shot at the Pres – it does so much encourage serious discussion. But I will say you are in lock step with Wallis, Sojo and Company. Whatever – .



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Janet

posted April 10, 2007 at 8:20 pm


Nontando; I am sorry for your pain and for your country’s pain. While in Zambia in January I met a group of people from Zimbabwe who had fled there and were attempting to rebuild their lives. The pain of so many of your people breaks my heart. Hearing my new friends’ stories of not only their suffering but more so their pain over the suffering of others was overwhelming to say the least. I will pray for you, Zimbabwe and that God will show me the ways in which I can choose to love people and serve others. Shalom;



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Payshun

posted April 10, 2007 at 8:54 pm


Interesting. I guess my question is to the conservatives that post here. How are you going to identify w/ the victims in Zimbabwe? p



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kevin s.

posted April 10, 2007 at 9:08 pm


“Robert Mugabe ignores all intelligent advice, just as does George W. Bush.” This statement isn’t very rational. “But sending monetarists to Zimbabwe would be just another disaster compounding the disaster of Mugabe.” Why? “What a stupid idea!” Why? “Look at what monetarists did to the former Soviet Union.” Russia is experiencing GDP growth, with a $12,100 per capita GDP and 6.6% unemployment. Wanna compare that to where they were? “Russia is an economic basket case while China is a major economic power.” Russia is still in better economic shape, but China is gaining fast, on the heels of free market principles (which you call a bitch goddess for some reason).



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kevin s.

posted April 10, 2007 at 9:08 pm


“I guess my question is to the conservatives that post here. How are you going to identify w/ the victims in Zimbabwe?” Pray, read up, elect leaders who will do the right things, and do my best to make sure it doesn’t happen here.



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 9:18 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 04.10.07 – 2:59 pm | #How are you going to identify w/ the victims in Zimbabwe? I can not – but I can see that one day they could have and enjoy a life like I have in their own country when Mugabe is gone. Like Pres. Kennedy, I too see things and ask ‘why not’. But as long as the pacifest thinking of Sojo prevails – we will do nothing but stay home where it is safe for us.I ask you – what can be done that will either make Mugabe leave office or make it so that the people can live in peace and prosper. Whatever that answer is – where has it worked in recent history in the world. Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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Rachel

posted April 10, 2007 at 9:24 pm


Thank you for sharing your story with us, sister Nontando. I will pray for the people of Zimbabwe.



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George Whitefield

posted April 10, 2007 at 9:43 pm


Yes yes you have your troubles over there in Zimbabwe. But let me put down my 32 oz. 7-11 soda and my supersized burger and tell you how bad we Americans have it by golly. I’ll try to work in some sarcasm and cheap shots as I shift attention from Zimbabwe to my opponents’ contard and libturd ideologies.



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Ngchen

posted April 10, 2007 at 10:53 pm


There may be ways to turn up the pressure on oppressive regimes short of war. Economic pressure in the long run may well destabilize the place. Ambitous generals may eventually revolt against the dictator when they see that everyone is suffering from the dictator’s misdeeds. The dictator may die or have a change of heart. Sometimes, things do have to get worse before they get better. God’s ways are not our ways, and it’s a false dichotomy to claim that it’s always either do nothing or go to war.



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 11:14 pm


Ngchen | 04.10.07 – 4:58 pm | #Economic pressure in the long run may well destabilize the place. How can a country with 2700% inflation become more destabilized? The problem is not ‘either or’. The problem is that for Mugabe to disregard a sanction there is no penalty or consequence. So they just move right along doing the same thing they have been doing while we do the same thing that allows them to do it. The UN is one big Eunic; we, the US, are at paralysis and have politiezied the War in Iraq so that we can no longer consider armed conflict. SO – let’s talk some more with Nancy P and Teddy K – they seem to know what needs to be done. Sojo – Pacifists R US! Later – .



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squeaky

posted April 10, 2007 at 11:59 pm


Moderatelad–again–what do you suggest as a solution, then? Do you really think that the U.S. can solve all these problems militarily? Or the U.N. for that matter? Where are we or the U.N. going to get the resources to do this? How is a military solution viable–where will the funding come from, what nations will be involved, what nations will be affected? Give us a plan–a plan that considers the short and long-term ramifications of your action. It just seems so black and white–so simple. As if there are no complex or deeply-rooted issues or history with regards to any nation. We’ve gone into many conflicts not fully understanding the depth of the situation only for it to blow up in our faces–witness, Iraq, Vietnam, Somalia. The military solution is NOT a simple solution, and the world is not black and white, and it is a far more complex place than you think. Is a military solution the only solution? If not, what else can be done? Why do you think military might always solves the world’s problems? If anything, in most situations, it only makes things worse. Use your imagination, man! Surely there are other ways to rid Zimbabwe of this dictator! Just because violence is the only solution you can think of doesn’t mean there are no non-violent solutions! And when a non-violent solution is suggested, please take the time to consider it, instead of saying “feh–that will never work.” What you don’t seem to understand is that by drawing our attention to these situations, Sojo is trying to spur us to action. But instead of appreciating those efforst or even taking the time to learn what actions they are or might be taking to make a difference, you just keep up with “Stay home with Sojo.” Give us some suggestions for solutions instead of just throwing stones. I have yet to see you offer anything constructive to this conversation on the question of what should we do about these dictators. If you have ideas, tell us. Give us a plan. And let’s have an actual discussion on what to do rather than being so quick to dismiss any solution that is suggested.



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 1:17 am


squeaky | 04.10.07 – 6:04 pm | #Please – if you are reading my postings I am not calling for millitary action. Just that at some point – that is all they understand but we do not have the guts for it and I refuse to let Nancy P or Teddy K play with our millitary anymore. (by their refusing to send a bill to the Pres that can be signed to fund the troups – they are putting them at greater risk – Damn her for her actions) I know that people and Sojo feel that sanctions will work – fine, what sanctions and what are the consequences if they do not comply? Sudan/Darfur are supplying oil to China and others – why not blockade their ports so that no oil flows out and the flow of money stops coming in – idea? It will take some of our ships to make that happen – we might have to shoot across the bow to stop some and we might have to disable some with a well placed missle. But that is too millitary for some so NO. Saddam flipped off the UN and all the other nations with our sanctions against Iraq. But then again you can do that when the French and Russians are cheating on the sanctions and let us not forget Koffi – he made a lot of money on that one too. So – I know I sound a little jaded but tell me please – when have sanctions achieved their objective? Sanctions have to have a consequence – saddly in this day and age they do not and the bad guys know that and laugh at us – or should I say US.Use of the millitary is the last act of a rational society to deal with an irrational country/dictator.Sojo is trying to spur us to action. What action – they have nothing – nothing that the people out there killing other people are afraid of. They talk – they meet at the national cathedral and have a great time bashing Bush. (that I have learned on this site in spades) They would take us back to isolationism faster than I would agree to do. They talk about how bad things are and how bad we (the US) are. It seems all the problems of the world are because God created the US and the world would be a better place if we were not here. They do not agree that we got into WWII, the civil war was wrong. Iraq is an illegal war and it is all our fault. FINE – then have the guts to say ‘stay home and let the world go to hell.’Sanctions – I would say a well placed sniper would be a better idea. Then see if sanction might change the heart and mind of the next person in office. SO I vote for the blockade – how about you? Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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Bren

posted April 11, 2007 at 1:35 am


The first thing to do is to become educated about Zimbabwe and discover that the problems in Zimbabwe are not the same as the problems in Sudan/Darfur or any other African country. You’d also discover that the astronomical rate is not the problem; it is a symptom of other problems! What I have read is that Tambo Mbeki of South Africa is someone that Mugabe more or less trusts (certainly more than westerners). A second thing to do, therefore is to encourage our governments to support Mbeki and other African leaders to pressure Mugabe–African brother to African brother–to create peace in his land. There is too much colonial history for us white folks to get very far on that subject. A third, and constant thing, of course, is to pray for wisdom to prevail and for peace to come to that battered land.



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squeaky

posted April 11, 2007 at 3:22 am


Thank you Bren– See, Moderatelad, Bren makes exactly the right point. If you want to understand the best way to deal with a situation, you need to understand the historical and cultural environment you are working in. And as much as you bash Sojo–I really don’t see the Bush Administration doing anything about these situations, so you should ALSO be saying “stay home with Bush”. You should be bashing everyone who isn’t doing anything, ESPECIALLY those who have the power to most effectively do something. I think the greater, more sobering question is why do we continually ignore African nations? By the way–I think a blockade is an option to be considered–but I will also ask you whether you have considered if an action like that could escalate into a larger conflict with other nations involved?



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 4:16 am


“But sending monetarists to Zimbabwe would be just another disaster compounding the disaster of Mugabe.” Why? “Look at what monetarists did to the Friedmanismformer Soviet Union.” ______________________________________ Kevin, you may want to read this paper by Simon Pirani and Ellis Farrell: Western financial institutions and Russian capitalism. Some excerpts: The investigation by police in several countries into alleged money-laundering by Russian organised crime through the Bank of New York (BoNY) and other big western banks has illuminated some important issues and obscured others. Firstly, the scandal has highlighted the desperation with which the grandest of the established western banks sought to lend money into Russia. The New York Times described how the BoNY “aggressively pursued relationships with Russia s largest banks”, and came to dominate the “highly competitive market” in setting up cash and securities accounts for Russian banks in the US.2 In other words the impetus for the growth of Russian debt came not from Russia but from the heart of capitalism; it was a phenomenon intrinsic to capitalism, not an aberration.Secondly, the scandal has underlined just how direct was the connection between the high priests of US capitalism and the Russian financial oligarchy.Looking back, eight years later, at “shock therapy” of 1991-92, it could be argued that the real “achievement” of the “reformers” was that they brought into being the Russian oligarchy and made possible the initial, and largest, surge of capital flight in 1992-93 (see also below, section 3). Their attempts to make the ruble convertible unleashed hyperinflation, wiped out personal savings at a stroke and earned them the hatred of millions of Russians; that, together with the undermining of health, education and other services is probably what they are best remembered for in ordinary Russians homes. But equally significant was their conduct of the privatisation programme, especially up to 1996, which made it possible for the oligarchs to turn their flimsy banks that had no capital into financial-industrial empires that took control of hard-currency proceeds from raw materials exports and kept them abroad. Western institutions guided this process. Those who work in the international financial institutions are perfectly well aware of the extent to which Russia s most valuable assets were sold off at a small fraction of their market value. _____________________________________ Monetarists = Friedmanites prescribed “shock treatment” to transform communism to capitalism overnight. This resulted in a wholesale liquidation of Russia’s assets, which were quickly appropriated by criminal elements. Russia’s massive debt is a direct result of Friedmanism. Friedmanism spreads poverty around the world. Friedmanism accelerates the concentration of wealth in the hands of a few oligarchs. All around the world oligarchies are threatened by instability caused by popular insurrections against social injustice. Friedmanism has had its day. It’s been proven not to work in the real world. And it’s an outright disaster with third world developing countries. The last thing Zimbabwe needs after Mugabe is Friedmanism. International monetarist institutions like the World Bank under war criminal Paul Wolfowitz would push massive loans for infrastructure needed to exploit the resources of Zimbabwe. The people of Zimbabwe would end up enslaved by crushing foreign debt, just like many other struggling third world nations. Then the Friedmanites will argue against a minimum wage.This is why I said sending monetarists to Zimbabwe was a stupid idea. I hope Zimbabweans don’t get suckered with Friedman snake oil. .



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 4:18 am


Link to: Western financial institutions and Russian capitalism. http://www.gla.ac.uk/centres/csstm/ifis-russia.htm .



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 4:25 am


Constructive ideas from Bren. .



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 4:26 am


Bren | 04.10.07 – 7:40 pm | #One of my best friends in the states here is a woman from South Africa. She has expressed what is happening in SA as well as Zimbabwe. She was in SA when it went from White to Black rule. I also have a friend in the UK, my sisters flat-mate who grew up in Rhodesia but had to leave the country when it became Zimbabwe. Both are white women that they and their families did not support white rule in the country.Acording to my Zimbabwe friend – Mugabe will not listen to anyone and that comes from friends and relatives that are still in Zimbabwe. They have lost their land and even the people that they employed while they ran the ranch have asked them to come back and help them – Mugabe would have them killed if they did.All of Africa gets more than 30 billion Ren a year from other nations around the world for AIDS and other needs. Mugabe rapes his country of the same amount each and every year and has it stached around the world – you think he is going to give up that cash cow.Rhodesia/Zimbabwe use to be the bread-basket of Africa – no it was worng for whites to have total comtrol but the change over in Zimbabwe was out of control compaired to SA. Thank God for Tutu and Deklerk in SA – but then again you are dealing with people that have a western mind-set and a moral baseline. Mugabe really has neither. Bush – of the authors of the articles on this site will have a great time bashing him and his adm. Will I call on the US to do anything – not now – I want the UN to take the lead and see if they can start to straighten things out. I am not interested in getting involved just so members of the UN can back door the US and make millions of dollors at our and the country involved expense. Koffi is out – but you know that there is another if not several that will step into his place to make a buck. Jaded – no, just lived long enough to know that somethings do not change and if they do it take a major shift to make it happen. The blockade can work in Sudan/Darfur but the border with Zimbabwe – that is a whole other animal – good luck. (still think the sniper idea should be considered at some point) Later – .



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 5:05 am


Succession in Zimbabwe As one of Africa’s longest-lasting leaders, speculation has built over the years [since 1980] as to the future of Zimbabwe after Robert Mugabe leaves office. His age and recurring rumors of failing health have focused more attention on possible successors within his party as well as the opposition. Also, the 11 March 2007 crackdown against a religious gathering sponsored by the opposition attracted scrutiny.In June 2005 a report that Mugabe had entered a hospital for tests on his heart fueled rumors that he had died of a heart attack; these reports were dismissed by a Mugabe spokesman. This coincided with Operation Murambatsvina (or “Drive Out Trash”), a police campaign to demolish houses and businesses that had been built without permission on land previously taken from white landholders and intended for redistribution. Opponents called this an attempt to disperse urban centers of dissent into rural areas where the government had more control. Former information minister Jonathan Moyo attributed the events to a power struggle within the party over who would succeed Mugabe. Joyce Mujuru, recently elevated to vice-president of ZANU-PF during the December 2004 party congress and considerably younger than Joseph Msika, the other vice-president, has been mentioned as a likely successor to Mugabe. Joyce Mujuru’s candidacy for the presidency is strengthened by the backing of her husband, Solomon Mujuru, who is the former head of the Zimbabwean army. In October 2006 a report prepared by Zimbabwe’s Ministry of Economic Development acknowledged the lack of co-ordination among critical government departments in Zimbabwe and the overall lack of commitment to end the crisis. The report implied that the infighting in Zanu-PF over Mugabe’s successor was also hurting policy formulation and consistency in implementation. In late 2006 a plan was presented to postpone the next presidential election until 2010, at the same time as the next parliamentary election, thereby extending Mugabe’s term by two years. It was said that holding the two elections together would be a cost-saving measure. However, this plan was not approved and there were reportedly objections from some in ZANU-PF to the idea. In March 2007 Mugabe said that he thought the feeling was in favor of holding the two elections together in 2008 instead of 2010. He also said that he would be willing to run for re-election again if the party wanted him to run. Other leaders in Southern Africa were rumored to be less warm on the idea of extending his term to 2010; recently, at the independence celebrations in Ghana, South African President Thabo Mbeki was rumored to have met with Mugabe in private and told him that “he was determined that South Africa’s hosting of the Football World Cup in 2010 should not be disrupted by controversial presidential elections in Zimbabwe.” On 30 March 2007 it was announced that the ZANU-PF central committee had chosen Mugabe as the party’s candidate for another term in 2008, that presidential terms would be shortened to five years, and that the parliamentary election would also be held in 2008. I hope the 2008 election is closely monitored, both in Zimbabwe and America. .



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kevin s.

posted April 11, 2007 at 6:36 am


“Friedmanism has had its day. It’s been proven not to work in the real world.” This is hardly a common view among economists, but your commentary has grown even less coherent. Russia has a stronger per capita GDP than China, which is only improving on account of free market reforms.For the record, Friedman’s proposal to abolish the minimum wage was accompanied by a call for an absolute tax deduction. Or, rather, the call for an absolute deduction could count the elimination of the minimum wage among it’s proposed benefits.I have to say, though, you have made an impressive transition from knowing nothing about Milton Friedman to despising him in short order.



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 6:53 am


laddy sez: thank you so much for the cheap shot at the Pres – it does so much encourage serious discussion. But I will say you are in lock step with Wallis, Sojo and Company. The Commander in Chief of the Iraqi Invasion deserves every bit of the bashing he gets. His administration is more like a crime ring than a government. They need to be removed from power. The sooner the better. The longer they stay in power the more damage they do. If Bush had any sense of honor he would resign and save America the distraction of impeachment. This is my own carefully considered opinion. Jim Wallis can speak for himself on Bush. .



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justintime

posted April 11, 2007 at 7:08 am


Kevin, As I’ve said before, I have great respect for Milton Friedman’s contribution to economic theory. But I’m horrified by the damage inflicted on economies around the world by his orthodox disciples. Friedmanites try to make universal economic policy out of an abstract equation. Monetarism is economic fundamentalism. Worshipping the bitch goddess at the bottom line, while ignoring the poverty left behind. My current favorite economist is Amartya Sen, also a Nobel economics prizewinner. Sen shows how to actually do something about poverty. . .



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 3:12 pm


justintime | 04.11.07 – 12:58 am | #This is my own carefully considered opinion. As compaired to the Frat House of W. J. Clinton. Yes – every N.O.W. mother wanted her daughter to ‘bend the knee’ and intern there. Clinton’s total blindness to issues around the world and only dealing with those that were ‘easy’. His handling of the ‘Black Hawk Down’ will go into the history books to show what one should do in a case like that – NOT! His not dealing with terrorist anywhere. His allowing Saddam to gain power over his 8 year term. His inability to have a complete cabinet for any length of time during his adm. Putting Madaline in as Sec of State and her warning other countries about our millitary action which compramised the armed forces saftey and mission. How many people are now sitting in prison on fellony convictions with their dealings with the Co-President Clintons – 15+. Thank God Webster Hubble fell on the sword for Bill and Hill. carefully considered – wish you held the former Pres to the same standard but, No – no – no…that is not the Sojo way. Later – .



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Wolverine

posted April 11, 2007 at 3:22 pm


justintime, Whatever we might try to do to stabilize Zimbabwe’s economy, our efforts our bound to fail until the Zimbabweans either develop a stable currency of their own or swallow their pride and accept some other reasonably stable currency (the Dollar or maybe the Euro are the most likely candidates) as legal tender. Without stable money of some sort everything else in an economy breaks down because even the most simple businesses must constantly adjust to wildly increasing prices. There comes a point where things get so out of control that an economy either finds an alternative to regular money (I recall that cigarettes became very valuable for a while in Eastern Europe after the Berlin Wall fell) or shuts down completely. That was the key insight of the monetarists, and it’s certainly relevant in a country with 2,700% inflation. Individual prices will go up and down, but inflation of the sort that Zimbabwe has experienced is almost always attributable to a severely screwed-up money supply. This is now widely accepted economics. You can call it the “bitch goddess” if you want, but whatever you call her, she should never be ignored. Wolverine



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neuro_nurse

posted April 11, 2007 at 5:15 pm


moderatelad Clinton was no saint. He did a lot of things that I disagreed with, but he did deal with terrorism and his administration warned the incoming administration about the danger from bin Laden and al Quaeda. Bush chose to ignore those warnings and do nothing until September 12, 2001. See: “Against All Emenies” by Richard Clark.



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 5:27 pm


justintime | 04.11.07 – 1:13 am | #Worshipping the bitch goddess at the bottom line, Every church has a ‘bitch’ that they need to be concerned about or the organization fails. It has been documented that conservatives give away more of their bitch than liberals. So if churches fail there is a lot less of the bitch to throw around.This is why I do not understand why more people do not support the Faith Based idea that Bush proposed. It is “faith” based, not ‘Christian faith’ based. It was step up so that you had money not to pay the people working for the group seeking the money or to be able to proselytize using the money. It was so that you could do more work with them to better their lifestyle, employment, education etc. But then again I don’t think a liberal will ever let any social program start by a conservative be successful. Later – .



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squeaky

posted April 11, 2007 at 7:35 pm


A prominent leader of the faith based initiative came out and said funding has been horribly inadequate. How is anyone supposed to support it when the administration that started it does not back it up?



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neuro_nurse

posted April 11, 2007 at 8:07 pm


“I do not understand why more people do not support the Faith Based idea that Bush proposed” First, I do not trust George W. Bush. Bush’s overtures of generosity are, as far as I can tell, always a thin veil for his political/social/economic agenda. There are always strings attached. I cannot speak to the specifics of his Faith-Based initiative, but from numerous other examples, I have learned not to believe a word that comes out of his mouth. I will comment on one area in which I am familiar, public health. The Bush administration instructed the CDC to take down its condom information page and replace it with a page describing condom failure. A number of states have recently rejected funding for abstinence-only education. Bush s aid money for HIV/AIDS treatment and prevention came with the stipulation that the programs in effect, those that were supported by research, be replaced by the administration s agenda-filled program. Generic antiretroviral drugs that had been approved by the WHO and would have been immediately available were scrapped and people died waiting for the FDA to approve U.S. manufactured antiretrovirals. Bruckner, H., Bearman, P. (2005). After the promise: the STD consequences of adolescent virginity pledges. Journal of Adolescent Health, 36, 271-278. Bush policies hurt AIDS prevention, groups say, administration accused of disinformation on condom use, harassment audits of education programs. (2002, October 1). Washington Post, A 06. Klein, N. (October 27, 2003). Bush s AIDS test. The Nation. http://www.thenation.com/doc/20031027/Klein Santelli, J., Ott, M. A., Lyon, M., Rogers, J., Summers, D. (2006). Abstinence-only education policies and programs: a position paper of the Society for Adolescent Medicine. Journal of Adolescent Health, 38(1), 83-87. United States House of Representatives Committee on Government Reform. (2003) Politics and science in the Bush Administration. Retrieved February 1, 2007 from http://oversight.house.gov/features/politics_and_science/pdfs/pdf_politics_and_science_rep.pdf.



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 9:54 pm


neuro_nurse | 04.11.07 – 2:12 pm | #So DC is playing politics with funding on several issues. HELLO – What color is the sky in your world? This has been going on since the Johnson Adm. if not longer. I have learned to live with it because DC makes decisions about money and other things based on what is going to aid them in the next election. This is one reason I would like to have term limits for all of congress. Interesting that term limits was one of the 10 items on the Contract with America, yes it was voted down but in 40 years of Dem control they never did they allow a vote on term limits – you figure. Now we have the Vice-Vice Pres in the person of Nancy P. traveling around trying to establish foreign policy. Oh yea, can you imagine the screaming in DC by the Dem’s it Newt had tried to do that? So welcome to the real world, if is not perfect, in many ways it is not fair. But it is what we have to work with so go ahead and give it a try. Later – .



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Payshun

posted April 11, 2007 at 11:35 pm


The reason I don’t support faith based policy is because it allows the government some measure of oversight into something the government really has no place in, the church. p



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Bren

posted April 12, 2007 at 2:54 am


I don’t understand how a conversation about Zimbabwe has morphed into an exchange about faith-based programs. It’s shocking, but true: the problems in Zimbabwe have nothing to do with American programs, faith-based or otherwise. I made an error in my previous post when I said “the astronomical rate is not the problem”; it should have read “the astronomical rate of inflation is not the problem…but a symptom of other problems”. There is no agriculture, for example, because of the way in which Mugabe took farms from the white farmers and gave them to soldiers and others to whom he owed favours or who threatened to cause trouble. However, they knew nothing about farming, and still don’t. And of course, there is nothing a person in power hates more than having to acknowledge he made a mistake. In any case, until the land is farmed again, there is no point in sending anyone to fix the monetary system. We DO need someone to persuade Mugabe to stop killing people who disagree with him, stop beating up photographers who take photos of what’s really happening and send them worldwide (e.g., the photo of the badly beaten leader of the opposition party), stop ruling by martial law. Hence, my earlier suggestion that we ask governments to support Mbeki in his discussions with Mugabe. It does seem to me that unless someone can talk sense to Mugabe (and have him hear it) we will have to wait until Mugabe dies–and hope that it will still be possible to bring Zimbabwe back to life.



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moderatelad

posted April 12, 2007 at 3:33 am


Bren | 04.11.07 – 8:59 pm | #Mugabe has neard it all and flipped of the world community – so I don’t think he is going to change. So what is next? I still think a well placed sniper would work but then again – that is just me. Later – .



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Payshun

posted April 12, 2007 at 6:29 am


Moderatelad, I don’t know if that’s short sighted or not. There are others that could make things worse. I would hesitate having someone killed when we can’t know the outcome. p



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moderatelad

posted April 12, 2007 at 4:39 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 04.12.07 – 12:34 am | #As compaired to have he is currently doing… Later – .



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Payshun

posted April 12, 2007 at 6:06 pm


I don’t understand that sentence. p



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Bren

posted April 13, 2007 at 4:12 am


Two more things we can do: 1) Pax Christi International is calling for prayer and action for the people of Zimbabwe this Saturday. They write that the Zimbabwean crisis is growing ever more serious, as “the suffering population becomes more insistent, generating more and more pressure through boycotts, strikes, demonstrations and uprisings, the State responds with ever harsher oppression through arrests, detentions, banning orders, beatings and torture. …the situation is extremely volatile.” A recent pastoral letter issued by the Zimbabwean bishops’ conference called for concrete action to inspire hope, and proposed that that this Saturday, 14 April, be observed as a Day of Prayer and Fasting for Zimbabwe. 2) We can write letters and make telephone calls of appeal to the Embassy of Zimbabwe.



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Payshun

posted April 13, 2007 at 7:03 pm


Thank you Bren I may just do that. Skip that I will do that. Thank you again and blessings. p



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moderatelad

posted April 13, 2007 at 10:06 pm


Bren | 04.12.07 – 10:17 pm | #I have prayed for Zimbabwe many times over the years as I have friends that this is their country but they had to leave in fear for there lives. I will spend more time tomorrow since it is the day that more will be doing the same. We could move the heart of the Almighty. I will even try to e-mail the Zim Embassy and the UN. I will not contact the US as I don’t think that we should be at the forefront of this issue at this time. Just my opinion. Have a great day! Later – .



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nad2

posted April 13, 2007 at 11:55 pm


in honor of moderatelad i am considering changing my handle to neocon-nad2. no offense man, but it has been an aweful long time since you took a moderate position on anything. ‘stay at home w/ sojo’ and everything that precedes it (here for example we have the sniper approach, clinton’s bjs are what is wrong w/ the world, & bush-bashing is just a liberal smoke-screen) always seems quite causticly conservative to me. i also hear, ‘i’m not going to press the US to do anything, it’s the UN’s deal,’ followed inevitably by ‘the UN is corrupt & weak & won’t do anything.’ well, which is it? we can’t wash our hands of this or anything and claim moral leadership, we have to do whatever we can to nurture an ailing world. is condi doing something about it? i have no idea, but i would certainly hope so and will give her the benefit of the doubt. likewise w/ darfur. but is it enough? that is the question and an ever-evolving one at that. calling for more action from the US, the government ultimately responsible to our, its people’s, will, and the rest of the world is our moral imperative and that is a question to constantly ask whoever is the the white house. as christians & moral human beings, all human life is equally sacred, but american foreign policy, under any administration, has never acted this way – it is a very self-interested foreign policy and always has been. i am not saying america is a bad place, we have alot to be proud of, but we can be alot better, & i humbly believe a more generous and justice-based foreign policy , not so short-sited in its view of self-interest, is much more ethically defensible and in line with our security interests and our call to do unto the least of these. and it MUST take seriously the moral calling to lift up africa as well. as a lifelong student of history i am convinced that violence does beget more violence, but there are infinite numbers of alternatives to violence than ‘stay at home’ or ‘passifism’ to enact a just peace for the world though it is hard and does not fit with any conventional wisdom, and sojo and everyone else trying to follow christ should continually call for justice for all the world, for the kingdom of god. as the talmud states, ‘Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obliged to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.’



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moderatelad

posted April 15, 2007 at 5:02 pm


nad2 | 04.13.07 – 6:00 pm | #Thanks for the complement and chuckle but please don’t change your name – I might get confussed. In real life I am a moderate person, Fiscally more conservative, socially more moderate. I believe that the ‘Stay Home with Sojo’ is a moderate statement if not in line with Wallis and Company.My desire to contact the UN is based on the articales on this site that support the UN over the ‘immoral’ US. The UN in the past, some members have suggested that they leave the US and establish their HQ somewhere else – great, do they need any help packing.I really do care about what is going on in the world but the ‘war of words’ will only take us so far. There has to be a consequence if they blow off a UN sanction – saddly that is not the case in most if not all of the sanctions the UN has passed over the past 40 years. UN peace keeping troups – I have yet to see where they have made a significant difference. We have evidence where they are corrupt and have aided the enemy – and so has the UN adm.Peace keeping troups are like a child trailing after drunken parent telling them they should not go into a bar and drink. Then they say -OK but only if you give me $100.00 I won’t tell the family.Do justly, Love Mercy, Walk Munbly and carry a Really Big Stick. Not so that you can use it at any whim you might have but so that evil in the world will see what you are capable of and might think twice before doing something. Not so that you can scare everyone but so that the weak will be able to see that there is someone that is willing to protect them in a time of trouble. Have a great Sunday – later – .



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andy trenier

posted April 16, 2007 at 1:13 pm


Hi there Nontando, I was dissappointed that you have not come across some of the strong leadership for change within ZImbabwe and those struggling for justice. There are many within Zimbabwe who are working towards a non-violent change and striving for justice. In FOR we support groups in Zimbabwe retraining young people at risk in vocational skills and in non-violence and leadership. There are several interesting and large christian and other organisations staging widespread demonstrations and actions including the Catholic council of Bishops. Catholic Archbishop of Zimbabwe Pius Ncube has recently made high profile calls for Zimbabweans to adopt a non-violent revolution, “I hope that people get so disillusioned that they really organise against the government and kick (Mugabe) out by a non-violent, popular, mass uprising” Later the Catholic Bishops statement God is on the side of the Oppressed concluded: We (affirm) with a clear and unambiguous Yes our support of morally legitimate political authority. At the same time we say an equally clear and unambiguous No to power through violence, oppression and intimidation. We call on those who are responsible for the current crisis in our Country to repent and listen to the cry of their citizens. To the people of Zimbabwe we appeal for peace and restraint when expressing their justified grievances and demonstrating for their human rights Try looking at the 35, 000 strong WOZA and follow the links. In peace Andy Trenier International Peacemakers Fund FOR England try



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Sarasotakid

posted April 16, 2007 at 9:08 pm


However, it would seem that there should be stronger international pressure for Mugabe to step down, and the U.S. could intervene in the manner Wolverine suggests.Sad situation. kevin s.Yeah right, like we’re doing such a great job with Iraq and Afganistan.



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Sarasotakid

posted April 16, 2007 at 9:17 pm


“Stay Home with Sojo!” Should we read this to mean we should send in the American troops to resolve the problem? With tours of duty being extended because we don’t have enough manpower to meet our present military obligations, how do you propose we do that? Also, there are many times when the use of military force is unnecessary. Based on your constantly using this phrase, Moderatelad, it appears that you favor using the military option first and then asking questions later. That got us into the mess we’re in in Iraq. Hardly a viable way to conduct foreign policy!



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moderatelad

posted April 17, 2007 at 1:59 am


Sarasotakid | 04.16.07 – 3:22 pm | #We have never used the military as the first option. How many sanctions did Saddam blow off and how many more would you be willing to put together before you figured that it was a waste of time?Stay Home with Sojo – was coined to sum up what it accepted here on this site. If you take their thinking – we would never have entered WWII in Europe because ‘Hitler did not attack us.’ The whole Iraq thing has been so politized by Peloci and Company that it is now a financial football in congress. Nancy and Friends are playing with the lives of our brightest and best. (sorry Kerry – they are not dummies like to claimed in your ‘joke’ – NOT!) Clinton cut our military to the bone so we have to use reservist at this point. Yes – I wish things would have gone better – but if you want to read about mistakes, dig into WWII sometime. If Teddy and Nancy had been in power during WWI or WWII, they would be saying the same things that they are today.So – we in the US can not come to terms on what is right to do with great evil in the world. SO – Stay Home with Sojo – as long as our lilly white backsides are safe – we do not care. We talk about caring but will do nothing about it. Darfur – Mugabe – etc. These were the topics talked about 15+ years ago – only then they were called Iraq and the Balkins. We are still in the Balkins (thank you Bill) and if he had been doing his job is stead of…, maybe the world would be a safer place today. I am not a pacifists like many of the writers of Sojo seem to be. I am my brothers keeper and have proven that, I believe that we should be our brothers liberator too, but how do we do that? Deplomacy is one way – but when they have proven themselves unjust and un trustworthy – what is the next step? Stay Home with Sojo Later – .



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Sarasotakid

posted April 17, 2007 at 3:16 am


“Nancy and Friends are playing with the lives of our brightest and best.” Bush used them as pawns by sending them into harm’s way in the first place, for nothing. “Clinton cut our military to the bone so we have to use reservist at this point. ” The force reductions started right after Persian Gulf War I, with Bush Senior. It was part of a larger plan to employ a larger mercenary force. “Stay home with Sojo” Just because the majority of the writers here are against this war and most other wars, it is both inaccurate and unfair to cast them as probably being pacifists in the WWII context.”If Teddy and Nancy had been in power during WWI or WWII, they would be saying the same things that they are today” Historically inaccurate. The Kennedys has two sons in WWII, one of whom did not return home. Just out of curiousity, Moderalad, what are your military credentials? I was an officer in the US army. Have you served your country in that way?



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moderatelad

posted April 17, 2007 at 5:14 am


Sarasotakid | 04.16.07 – 9:21 pm | #The Kennedys has two sons in WWII True – Teddy was not one of them.reductions started right after Persian Gulf War I, with Bush Senior True – but the cuts were not going to be as radical as Clinton – who hated the military – continued to cut and cut and cut. The worst thing a democracy can be is a second rate military power. them into harm’s way in the first place, for nothing. Your opinion…yea I know – NO WAR FOR OIL – whatever. There were other reasons that had been addressed and talked about before the speech before congress – so let just agree to disagree on this one… “Stay home with Sojo” They are the ones that talk about the ‘Just War Theory’ and WWII does not fulfill that theory the way Sojo talks about it. Sojo embraces the Ward Churchills of the world and I prefer the Winstons. I was an officer in the US army. Have you served your country in that way? OK – one more time. No – I was not able to serve in the military because of a heart condition brought on by an infection. I have outlived one of my doctor s predictions. I could live a comfortable life but not counting on seeing my grand children. So – I guess my comments hold no water for you anymore.Thank you for your service – may God bless you and yours for your sacrifice. I have a son that has talked about entering the service – not sure which branch but then again that is his decision to make and I pray God will guide and direct him. And yes – I wanted to serve but my medical records prevented me – whatever. So I guess I and Clinton do have something in common – we did not serve our country militarily. But your daughter is safe with me in the office because I know that she is someone little girl and they love her so much. How does Bill look at young ladies in the office – or any lady for that matter. Later – .



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Sarasotakid

posted April 17, 2007 at 12:35 pm


Moderatelad, What Clinton did was horrible. But your argument about my “daughter being safe” carries little weight with me. I have a son and he is not safe with Bush in office. We tragically lost 3000 on 9/11. So what does Bush do? Sacrifices AT LEAST another 3000 sons and daughters in Iraq. Neither sons or daughters are safe with Bush. Notice how I didn’t lament the sacrifice in Afganistan? That is because many of us here saw the need to put an end to that snake’s nest after 9/11. I will pray that your son makes the right decision. I will affirmatively pray he does not join the military. “Stay home with Sojo” They are the ones that talk about the ‘Just War Theory’ and WWII does not fulfill that theory the way Sojo talks about it.I seriously doubt that WWII fails to meet the SOJO Just War criteria. I think that you are just portraying SOJO supporters that way. Have you investigated and read about the Just War doctrine? Greater minds than ours developed it. What standards would you apply?



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moderatelad

posted April 17, 2007 at 4:34 pm


Sarasotakid | 04.17.07 – 6:40 am | #‘Just War Theory’ I really think that Sojo would not support our involvement in WWII by some of the articles that were written by people directly connected with them. The other reason that the ‘JWT’ doesn’t work for them is that they (Sojo) look at this as the US vs IRAQ. It is not – but by their thinking that way – they can support their argument. It is a war of ideologies. It is Radical Islam vs The West. Right now the hub seems to be in the Mideast/Iraq. Yes – they are located elsewhere too – put the concentration is there. We can either fight them over there or here – where do you want to do it? Radical Islam has not desire to live peacefully with any other religion in the world. I have a great friend that is retired from the military, still active in the reserves and he is very active in the Dem Party in MN. I do not know what he knows but even he is a big supporter of the action in Iraq and he is no friend of Bush. He knows more than ABC-CBS-NBC-CNN about what is going on there. If HE is supporting this action – I guess there is something there that I need to support it too. Life is perspective – just think that Sojo needs to wake up and realize that the world is a little more complicated then they think it is and the answer(s) that we seek are a little deeper than ‘impeach Bush’. later – .



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Andrey Gorbatskiy

posted August 8, 2012 at 3:21 pm


Thank you a lot for sharing this with all people you actually know what you’re talking about! Bookmarked. Kindly also talk over with my web site =). We will have a hyperlink change agreement among us



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