God's Politics

God's Politics


Jim Wallis : The Victory (Part 3)

posted by gp_intern

I am on spring break with my family this week. As we approach Good Friday and Easter, I wanted to share with you the concluding chapter to my book, The Call to Conversion. It’s a reflection on the cross and resurrection, “The Victory.” It will be posted in three parts: Below is the final installment. I wish all of you a happy and Holy Easter.

What about you and me today? Do we still doubt that this kind of love makes much sense in our complex technological world? Does the way of suffering servanthood seem out of place in our world of huge and powerful institutions? That doubt was the experience of the disciples between Good Friday and Easter Sunday. They, too, felt overwhelmed by the powers and forces that ruled the day. But they were converted. The disciples became the people of the resurrection. They began to live lives filled with the fruits of conversion. They began living in the power of the resurrection. We, too, can know the power of Christ’s resurrection.

But such power will not come simply by attesting to the theological fact of the resurrection. We, like the first disciples, must come out of hiding and see the risen Lord. Seeing is believing, and believing is knowing that we must turn and follow Jesus. The wisdom of God in Jesus Christ will then be made known to the principalities and the powers through the church. The place in which the dominion of the powers is broken is the fellowship of the resurrection, the church community that nurtures growing confidence in the power of God’s love. The resurrection restores broken fellowship. Because the Lord is risen, love reigns where fear once controlled.

To doubt or be suspicious of the power of that love is to doubt the resurrection. The doubting, suspecting parts of our lives are yet unhealed because we have not been converted; we have still to receive the love that would heal us and change the world.

We are invited to celebrate the victory of Christ and to live in the world showing we believe it to be true. We are invited to experiment with its truth by risking our security, comfort, resources, time, energy, and our very lives for the sake of his victory. We are called to be those who have left all and risked everything in testifying to his victory. We are called to demonstrate to the world, with our lives, that we have been converted by the resurrection.

The basis of our faith is that Jesus Christ is stronger than any of the powers that confront us: political tyranny, economic oppression, the logic of war. We confront the world’s powers not merely with our own strength, resources, ideas, commitment, work, or resistance. Rather, we confront the world with the very life of the resurrected Christ among us.

Like Jesus’ other disciples, who were controlled by their fear, we can be converted by seeing the resurrected Christ. Whenever we act in obedience to Christ, we are demonstrating his victory. Every time we act upon Jesus’ lordship in our lives, are reconciled to a brother or sister, refuse to be controlled by the economic system, deny the absolute authority of the state, claim Christ’s freedom over our fear, tear down the walls of race, class, and sex, love our enemies, stand with the poor, or resist the violence of the nations by acting for peace – we are demonstrating the victory of Christ in the world. His victory is present wherever it is claimed and acted upon. We are those who evaluate themselves and the whole world in the light of Christ’s victory.

Preaching the cross and the resurrection of Jesus is foolishness to those who perish. Yet, fools for Christ formed the early church. As that tiny band of believers grew, the world could see the power in such foolishness.

That same foolishness is the only hope we have of breaking free from the present realities that so gravely threaten us. Only in the recognition of something that is more real can we see their authority as unreal. The greatest threat to any system is the existence of fools who do not believe in the ultimate reality of that system. Indeed, the first step in making new realities possible is to break free from the grip and the authority of the old realities. To repent and to believe in a new reality – that is the essence of conversion. We join the body of Christ whose purpose is to make visible this new reality in the world.

Without the resurrection, the defeated followers of Jesus would have simply faded away. He would have been just another prophet who was killed. But the resurrection vindicated the cross and validated the way of Jesus, establishing the authority of his Lordship. At the same time, the resurrection invalidated the authority of the system. It showed the world’s way to be a lie. The world’s definition of reality crucified Jesus. His resurrection proved that definition of reality to be false. Our system, too, has its definitions of reality – national security, economic expansion, political realism. The way of Jesus is thought to be as foolish today as it was in his day. His kingdom is totally alien to the present world order.

If we believe the resurrection, the world will consider us unreasonable, unrealistic, irresponsible, and irrelevant. A world full of incredible foolishness, of myths called “truths” and of lies called “logic,” will insist that we are the fools. Yet the resurrection convinces us of God’s wisdom. We finally know God’s power to heal us and to transform our relationship to the world.

On Easter morning, and each day of our lives, we celebrate the reality of the resurrection of Jesus Christ, which triumphs over every other reality. In the face of the world and its systems, we proclaim the resurrection, saying, “We have seen the Lord.” We see him in the lives of our brothers and sisters. We discover him in the faces of the poor, in the faces of all the victims, and in the faces of our children. We see him in the lives of Christians who have suffered and died because they believed. And we see the Lord in the bread and the wine. He shows us, as he did his disciples, the evidence of his suffering. He invites us to reach out, take, eat, and drink; he wants us to remember him, to see him, and to know his victory.

His way is life. The world’s way is death. We can now stand before the world’s false realities and securities, free to deny them, denounce them, and remove ourselves from them. We stand before the reality of the resurrection and confess with the first disciples that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.

We stand before the world as fools. We are foolish enough to believe that Jesus’ way is stronger and more true than the way of the world. We rest secure in the knowledge that he has, and will, overcome. We are called to be fools for Christ, a people saved by his cross and converted, finally, by his resurrection.

May God convert us to such foolishness.



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Elizabeth

posted April 6, 2007 at 1:56 am


I was just curious about some things. I am a born again christian and I do believe as a follower in Christ that I have a reponsibility to help in this world. However, I want to make it clear that helping in this world is what I do because I am a christian…it is not what makes me a christian. I am a christian because Jesus is my Lord and Savior FIRST. It concerns me that there is a lot of talk about helping people in their life now, but what about their souls. Is it also our mission to bring people to Christ as well? Where is the concern for the lost? This is where I get confused. Doesn’t the bible state “what good is it if a man gains the whole world, and loses his soul. Let’s not forget the true message of the Gospel. TO SAVE!



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Kent W.

posted April 6, 2007 at 1:38 pm


Jim, Thank you for this series of posts. You have demonstrated that the power of our faith in the resurrected Christ is the underpinning for the call to work for justice and peace. Conversion is our starting point, our source of power to live faithfully to ALL of the gospel’s claims on our lives. This is not an either/or situation: Either we work for conversion – to save the souls of the world. Or we work for peace and justice – to feed, clothe, and love the suffering of the world. We care for the suffering because we have been converted, we spread the good news, the “gospel”, because because salvation is the way our hearts become changed. Changed hearts are able to stand in the face of the evil in this world. Christ’s way was to allow evil to do it’s worst to him, to bear it in his own body, and yet to respond with love and forgiveness. The world’s way is to try to control evil, through laws and force of arms. Jesus overcame the world. This is not just a metaphoric victory. When the world sees Jesus love in the face of evil, we ask WHY? HOW? Can this kind of love exist? It is this questioning that leads to conversion, that leads an oppressor to cease oppressing. Jesus wins his victory through changed hearts.



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Kent W.

posted April 6, 2007 at 3:05 pm


Elizabeth: “I am a christian because Jesus is my Lord and Savior FIRST.” and “Let’s not forget the true message of the Gospel. TO SAVE!” You say Jesus is your Lord and Savior, then you say the true message of the gospel is “to SAVE”. What happened to him being your LORD? If he is your Lord AND Savior then your responsiblilty is to live obediently to ALL his commands, not just to be SAVED. This is the great commission: Matt. 28:19-20 “Therefore go and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, baptizing them… and teaching them to OBEY EVERYTHING I have commanded you.” (my emphases) This is clearly a call not just to “save souls”, but it is a call to make disciples and teach them to obey. What are Jesus commands we are to obey? How about: Love God and Love our Neighbor. We evangelicals have long pointed to the need for salvation at the expense of the implications of the call to love our neighbor. As a result, our call to salvation has begun to ring hollow in the ears of unbelievers. How can we win them to Christ if we don’t love them first?



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t.mc.cool

posted April 6, 2007 at 3:09 pm


The message of the gospel is much, much more than “to save.” To state that this is the only message of the gospel is to deny all the rest that Jesus taught us. Yes, salvation is important, but it is not the main message of the gospel. When Jesus taught us to pray, he did not include “and help us get into heaven and save others as well.” He encapsulated the gospel message when he taught us to pray, “Thy kingdom come, thy will be done, ON EARTH as it is IN HEAVEN.” The gospel message is that the kingdom of God is here and now. It is through us that the future kingdom of God is apparent in the here and now. As Wright puts it, we bring the “future into the present.” When Paul tells us that our bodies are temples, he instructs us to do more than just avoid sin and live healthy lifestyles. While those are important, although superficial, points, Paul means to tell us much more. Our bodies are where the Holy Spirit of God lives. Our bodies are where God dwells among his people as He also dwelt among the Jews in the temple of Jerusalem. Wright describes our bodies/temples as a point where “heaven and earth overlap.” It is through us that others glimpse the coming of the kingdom of God as we stand for equality and justice, just as Jesus himself did. That is the good news we carry to the world.



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web tasarım

posted April 6, 2007 at 9:09 pm


web tasarım



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kevin s.

posted April 6, 2007 at 9:50 pm


“We evangelicals have long pointed to the need for salvation at the expense of the implications of the call to love our neighbor. As a result, our call to salvation has begun to ring hollow in the ears of unbelievers. How can we win them to Christ if we don’t love them first?” What in Elizabeth’s comment made you think she supported saving without loving? They are both necessary. You cannot have one without the other. “Yes, salvation is important, but it is not the main message of the gospel. ” I disagree. There is no instance of Christ ordering us to do good for the sake of doing good. His last command for Peter was to feed his sheep and make disciples. The kindness that pours out hence is the means to this end, though Christ certainly supported doing good deeds. “When Paul tells us that our bodies are temples, he instructs us to do more than just avoid sin and live healthy lifestyles. While those are important, although superficial, points, Paul means to tell us much more. ” Paul certainly doesn’t suggest that sin is superficial. That is entirely your opinion. ” It is through us that others glimpse the coming of the kingdom of God as we stand for equality and justice, just as Jesus himself did.” I don’t know that God is as concerned with equality as you describe. In fact, justice often entails unequal treatment. Of course, in the broader sociopolitical sense, God is surely not opposed to our efforts on behalf of equality.



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Payshun

posted April 7, 2007 at 10:33 am


Actually Kevin there are plenty of instances that Jesus tells us to do good just to do good, whether that be his “polite suggestion” (it was neither polite or a suggestion) to the Pharisee that she should only invite the poor to his party or the Good Samaritan, or the parable of the rich man and Lazarus or… p



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Payshun

posted April 7, 2007 at 10:33 am


Also how do you define salvation? p



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Donny

posted April 7, 2007 at 3:00 pm


Payshun, Read the Gospels. I wish Progressives did. With all the editing anyway. Jim Wallis, You have a lot of heresy in your Sojouners Progressive political organization, along with some Biblical truth. We were told to expect people like you, by Jesus and the Disciples.Peace at the cost of our souls is too expensive. Your Progressive message is far, far, too similar to Liberal Secular Humanism to be an accident.



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HASH(0x11b337b4)

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:42 pm


[Peace at the cost of our souls is too expensive. Your Progressive message is far, far, too similar to Liberal Secular Humanism to be an accident.] I wish that we could drop the labeling and thus automatically condemning or affirming people. It is no accident that Paul typically began his letters speaking of our undeserved salvation, grace, and our lives in response, peace. “Grace and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”The Biblical approach is wholeness; grace and peace are always intertwined; for we cannot love God unless we also love neighbor. Jude rejects those who would see the Gospel and the church as a way to indulge themselves; and Paul virtually quotes Jesus as he instructs. “Bless your persecutors; never curse them, bless them. Rejoice with others when they rejoice, and be sad with those in sorrow. Give the same consideration to all others alike. Pay no regard to social standing, but meet humble people on their own terms. Do not congratulate yourself on your own wisdom. Never pay back evil with evil, but bear in mind the ideals that all regard with respect. As much as possible, and to the utmost of your ability, be at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge: leave that, my dear friends, to the Retribution. As scripture says: Vengeance is mine-I will pay them back, the Lord promises. And more: If your enemy is hungry, give him something to eat; if thirsty, something to drink. By this, you will be heaping red-hot coals on his head. Do not be mastered by evil, but master evil with good.”



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Deryll

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:44 pm


Anonymous | 04.07.07 – 10:47 amThat was me!



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Bob Longman

posted April 7, 2007 at 5:07 pm


We need to be fools in Christ like never before. That leaves us open to the Spirit’s leading. Only that can reach peoples’ souls. Only that can hope to blunt the effects of our personal and collective sins. Thanks, Jim.



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TLB

posted April 7, 2007 at 10:08 pm


I saw a mass email Wallis is sending out promoting immigration “reform”, aka a massive amnesty. Obviously, there are huge problems with what he supports, and, as I’ve stated here before I’m absolutely positive that if I had the chance to debate him on this issue in front of his congregation they’d start looking for a new pastor the next day. But, to avoid too much typing, let’s do it one question at a time. In a future post, I’d like Wallis to research the great amount of political power that the Mexican government has inside the U.S., then I’d like him to explain to his parisioners either a) how that’s not a problem, or b) how he intends to square giving amnesty to millions of Mexicans and at the same time reduce the political power that government has inside our country. If Wallis is going to start promoting policies, then he should be able to discuss all the issues involved in those policies. Otherwise, he’s just a used car salesman. I look forward to him discussing *all* aspects of this issue and answering his critics. If he won’t answer his critics, then should you trust what he says?



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kyle brasile

posted April 8, 2007 at 12:15 am


are you kidding? do you all really believe this bull crap? Crist? Spirit> Whatever , I believe in me ya’ll go to hell or where ever you go!!!



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c kitty

posted April 8, 2007 at 4:32 am


Donny, I wish I knew what it would take to shake you out of your sense of self-satisfied superiority and disdain toward everyone who isn’t a clone of you. I’d like to know who gave you permission to chastise, criticize and condemn everyone else while you claim spiritual righteousness. It is truly sad that you have gotten so detoured off the path Christ would have us take, since you are clearly articulate, passionate and talented. But the way you use your talents is more likely to turn the unwary away from Christ as you portray Him.



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Donny

posted April 8, 2007 at 1:37 pm


c kitty, How many people were “with” Jesus at the foot of the Cross? YOU, forget, that the message of Jesus is not going to accepted by evil and nasty people. My ONLY desire is to point out the evil and nastiness packaged today as warm and fluffy civil rights activism.People are being shattered and are REALLY dying while following the Satanic message of Progressives and Liberals. These, “Wolves in sheeps clothing.” Their message? Do as thou wilt.” That is NOT the message of the Gospel.I choose not to lie about it and not to be a liar about it. It is the least I can do for God and for my neighbors.



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Donny

posted April 8, 2007 at 1:56 pm


Elizabeth, Helping people withn their needs does not stop at feeding and clothing them.Well done. This Kent W. guy, obviously hasn’t done hos homework.Loving your neighbor, sometimes entails calling the police and pointing out the meth lab in his basement. Even if he is a Christian. Remember there is a force that thinks drugs are OK. They are called Liberals and Progressives. Loving Progressives and Liberals, definately calls for opposing their willingness to accept changing the truth for a lie. Jesus wasn’t crucified, nor were the Apostles martyred, “for” telling people they could come into the Church and do whatever they wanted to. I wish there was in Progressives and Liberals (Secular Humanists) the same honesty as was in the Roman Commander mentioned in the Gospel. “He is risen.” How many claim to be “Christian,” and teach otherwise??????? They are the tares. It may not be my job to pull them out, but certainly, it is every Christians job to point them out.



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Donny

posted April 8, 2007 at 2:59 pm


massresistance.org See what Jim Wallis’s friends, whom he supports fully, are doing to our children. And their plans are not Christian.



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Carl Copas

posted April 8, 2007 at 7:19 pm


Donny, why are you so hateful and spiteful? Even on Easter??



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Deno Reno

posted April 8, 2007 at 7:56 pm


MARANATHA …. He is Risen!



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neuro_nurse

posted April 9, 2007 at 3:06 am


Charity, furthermore, cannot be used as a means of engaging in what is nowadays considered proselytism. Love is free; it is not practised as a way of achieving other ends. But this does not mean that charitable activity must somehow leave God and Christ aside. For it is always concerned with the whole man. Often the deepest cause of suffering is the very absence of God. Those who practise charity in the Church’s name will never seek to impose the Church’s faith upon others. They realize that a pure and generous love is the best witness to the God in whom we believe and by whom we are driven to love. A Christian knows when it is time to speak of God and when it is better to say nothing and to let love alone speak.Deus Caritas Est, Benedict XVI http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20051225_deus-caritas-est_en.html



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Donny

posted April 9, 2007 at 5:35 am


Carl, I am pointing people to the Truth of the Gospel and New Testament message that the Progressives are perverting and altering the Gospel for evil reasons. I think that is very loving of me, towards the people that may be caught up in its deceptive powers, to at least warn them. I see nothing has changed in 2000-plus years in the kinds of people that think that it is hateful to want the truth to be known. Jim Wallis and his Liberal/Progressive Socialist-Democrat organizational membership, are easily shown for what they are, and it’s not from my opinions. I just agree with the prophetic nature of the writings of Peter, Paul, John, James, Jude and the words quoted of Christ Jesus about these people. I do admire the opportunity to post my opposition to their madness. I will write that in all fairness. How many “Progressives and Liberals” really do NOT believe that Christ Jesus was ressurrected, and claim to be Christians?



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 5:52 am


Donny, I read the gospels. It’s obvious that you may have skipped a few passages like the woman at the well, the rich man and Lazarus, or the Good Samaritan. Here is a helpful suggestion. Meditate on those passages and then tell me what you have learned.Put yourself in the place of the rich man, the woman at the well, and the broken Jewish man that was robbed. Tell us Donny what it feels like. Tell me Donny have you given comfort to someone. Tonight at Easter I had a really conservative friend and he needed prayer because the top brass at his marine station are treating him like crap. I loved him by praying the crap out of him. I say this not to point out how holy or righteous I am (because I am neither unless Christ says so) I say this to say that one can offer compassion grace and mercy to people they don’t agree w/ ideologically. Maybe, just maybe you should try that when you come around here or do you not have the courage to do that? p May God’s blessings and love fill you on this Ressurection evening.



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 5:53 am


Donny, How many conservatives give lip service to grace while only believing in legalism? p



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patent

posted April 9, 2007 at 10:29 am


patent



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Donny

posted April 9, 2007 at 2:31 pm


payshun, I have been like all three, with the exception that I am a man. Consistency is a major theme of Christ Jesus and in the letters of the New Testament writers. Your questions still deny the fact that Progressives and Liberals are preaching a godless, secular and perfeverted Gospel. Many people, including “conservatives” pay only lip service to the Gospel, but it is the Liberals and Progressives that have rewritten a new form of it that makes heresy and perversion OK to practice and promote. Give me a good old fashion sinner who crosses over into hypocrisy, but knows what the Gospel requires sooner or later, over any kind of person that alters it to OK their sins and the encouraging of others to sin. Go to massresistance.org and see. What people like Jim Wallis have put into practice is far worse than hypocrisy. Hypocrites have something they are violating. Progressives and Liberals do not violate their false doctrines. They promote and encourage them. They are like a person taking care of the hurt stranger and then causing them to embrace debauchery once they are strong and healthy. Hopefuly payshun, you are not reading a filtered New Testament, like the ones provided for the Episcopalians.Look at what has happened in Massachusetts. And it is only going to get worse as the enemies of Christians are allowed free reign in Christian Churches, politics and public schools. We’re truly back to a time like the Roman days the Church had to deal with, when the Church had similar problems, and society also. You have read the New Testament? Payshun?



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Donny

posted April 9, 2007 at 2:41 pm


And payshun, I was once just like the stranger on the road, until a Christian whose orthodox conservative truths, saved me from the sickness I willingly embraced and supported. Sicknesses brought to me by others that caused me physical and spiritual harm. They took me in, had me taken care of, and never asked for anything in return. Notice that Liberals and Progressives always require that you pay them back by becoming like them and spreading their ideology and theolgy or face great consequences.In our public schools and Universities, it is not the conservatives screaming and threatening speakers who disagree with them.We are getting a glimpse of the kinds of people that inhabited Sodom as we see the behaviors of Leftists. One thing the GLBT community is right about, Sodom wasn’t “just” about same-sex sex. It was about indoctrinating every single person into their club. It started woth the same kind – the exact same kind – of haughtiness you see in the average, garden-variety Liberal/Progressive Leftist of 2007. From Hollywood to Boston, you see radical, screaming and hateful people demanding that everyone submit to them. No dissent of the Liberal/Progressive “Agenda.” And now look at what the GOP has to offer as Presidential candidates. Has to warm the heart of any anti-Christian Leftist from Jim Wallis to Michael Swift.



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 8:11 pm


Please Donny, Then you have learned nothing of what grace and mercy are if you cannot connect to the human aspects that make the stories and histories so real. You have no grace for us progressives and you sit like God on high pretending your own crap doesn’t stink. You are Ok w/ hypocrisy as long as they cling to worshipping republicans and conservative ideology. That is not only hypocrisy but it is the sin of idolatry. As for the bible I read (when you say gospel I am assuming you mean bible- feel free to correct me if I am wrong) I am reading the NASB. Umm Donny you will have to show links and images to these imagined rants of yours because the only one screaming on this page is you. You are cowardly Donny hiding behind rhetoric at the expense of connecting to your progressive brothers and sisters.The funny thing that you seem unable to notice or be aware of is that Jesus himself surrounded himself w/ twelve disciples. Some were zealots seeking a political messiah, some were fisherman, some were tax collectors, thieves and overt sinners. But for some reason you deny progressives that believe differently from you a seat at the table. In God’s kingdom murderers will be there, some were rapists, some even worse.Guess what Donny they were all forgiven. So too are you. Maybe just maybe you should seek to honor that place at the table for your progressive brothers and sisters or at least learn some humility because from where I stand progressives are not screaming at you to accept gay marriage but to leave gay people alone. It’s the damage that people like you create that leads some gays to commit suicide. Maybe try learning some compassion and grace before you type on that big fat keyboard of yours. p



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 8:16 pm


Oh I have read and am quite familiar w/ the New Testament (even though my favorite verses in all of scripture are located in the book of Isaiah and my favorite book in the bible is Ezekiel ((even though it scares the mess out of me.)) My favorite gospel is John because I am a contemplative and a mystic and John more than most is the archetype for prophetically gifted folks like me. But I would doubt you know anything about my contemplative brothers and sisters. You seem unaware of any other form of Christianity than your own. Maybe do some research and leave the others alone. p



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 8:34 pm


I went to that ridiculous site you love and I have to ask why do you care about the gays so much? p



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HASH(0x120c1e1c)

posted April 9, 2007 at 10:14 pm


It is very frustrating to read the same old rants from Donny time after time, but I fear nothing is going to change until something or someone knocks the hate out of him. Clearly hate is the cornerstone of his life. It takes over everything that comes out of his mouth. I feel so very sad for him. He talks of God, but he doesn’t seem to really experience God’s love. Most of us have been hurt in life, but to hang on to it is exactly the wrong thing to do. It’s like he keeps irritating an unhealed wound.



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Kent W.

posted April 10, 2007 at 7:00 am


Donny: How can you say “…that the message of Jesus is not going to (be) accepted by evil and nasty people.”? We were ALL evil and nasty people before Jesus accepted us. From the sound of your comments above, you were pretty evil and nasty too, before Jesus accepted you. By your standards, the apostle Paul (whom you seem to admire) would never have been called by God. He was a hopelessly evil man, a murderer of Christians, who practiced a totally perverted faith.I know I must be throwing pearls before swine here, but I will persist. You don’t even KNOW the people you throw your barbs at. You throw them in the dark at some imagined phantom of “liberalism”.For what it’s worth, I am a bible beleiver, saved by grace through faith in Jesus death on the cross. I believe evangelism is the responsibility of every believer. I oppose gay marriage, I believe homosexuality is a perversion, and abortion is wrong. I oppose those who have distorted the gospel through intelectual tactics, denying the miracles, the deity of Christ, and the moral imperatives of scripture. I also stand firmly against the church trying use the power of the state to ENFORCE it’s will, and it’s moral imperatives. That will only end up with the corruption of the church. I believe we have damaged our witness for the gospel by screaming so loudly at sinners. The world can only see that we hate THEM, not that we hate SIN. We cannot end the sin without their hearts being changed, and their hearts will be changed only when they see Jesus love through us. I stand against Christians participating in war on behalf of any nation. I DO believe in using the voice God has given us in this nation to cry out for peace and justice and Christian morality; to ask for and even demand that the government DO justice and behave morally. I believe that good government can never be a substitute for the church being obedient to our call: to care for those in need and to be witnesses for Christ. You don’t seem to believe that you are spewing hate, but when you lump us all togther under your horribly mis-understood labels of “progressive, liberal, and leftist” and talk about how evil we are, you simply dehumanize us. Jesus would never have done that, even if we were completely wrong. He would have sought to win us over with his love and self sacrifice, which is just exactly what he did on the cross! Jesus saved his criticism for the self righteous legalists; those who accused him of bending the rules to suit himself (i.e. breaking the sabbath, being a glutton and wine bibber, etc) I am sure I have wasted my breath on you. At this point all I can do is pray for you. I pray that your heart will be changed , or that your voice of hate will be removed, so that either way you will stop doing so much damage to the witness for Christ in this forum.



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Kent W.

posted April 10, 2007 at 7:58 am


Donny:As I look back over my post, I see that my frustration led me to be insensitive, especially in the use of the reference to “pearls before swine”. I appologize for that. I should not have used language that was insulting to you.



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Deno Reno

posted April 11, 2007 at 1:02 am


Kent W AMEN & AMEN



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Payshun

posted April 11, 2007 at 5:15 am


Well I don’t waste time moral thoughts about sexual behavior between consenting adults for me sin boils down to not loving your neighbor. If any act (sexual or otherwise) occurs then that’s sin. I have no problem w/ homosexuality as it is no more broken then heterosexuality. It’s not a person’s sexuality is fully healthy before or after marriage.p



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Canuckelhead

posted April 11, 2007 at 7:13 am


Kent W: I applaud and am humbled by your direct graciousness to Donny. Having been raised in and liberated from the bondage of Christian fundamentalism which he sounds trapped in, I often lack what you have so capably demonstrated in addressing him. And I don’t think an apology is necessary; after all, you have pretty good sources!



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canuckelhead

posted April 11, 2007 at 8:08 am


“Look at what has happened in Massachusetts. And it is only going to get worse as the enemies of Christians are allowed free reign in Christian Churches, politics and public schools.” I assume by the above reference that Donny is referring to Mass.’s permitting gays to marry or whatever it is gays are allowed to do there that they are not permitted in other states?? Just for the record, prior to gay marriage being made legal here in Canada in July ’05, crossing that boundary was upheld by many Christians here as the ultimately evil ‘bogeyman’ that would spell the end of civility and righteousness as we’d come to know it.Granted, two years is not a very long time in terms of history, but nevertheless it should be noted that, to date, contrary to what many doomsayers predicted, legally married gay couples have not taken to the street corners to publically fornicate, celebrate their new freedoms or otherwise rub Canadians’ faces in their “victory.”In fact, a stroll down the street of any Cdn city would reveal very little difference between life today and life as we knew it ten years ago. People like Donny, of course, have their “slippery slope” and “last days” arguments to combat what they perceive me to be implying, but I think honesty (still a Christian virtue, no?) requires that it simply needs to be pointed out that the frequent practice of resorting to talk of Sodom and Gomorrah (whatever that really means!) should the Massachusetts precedent be followed needs to be undressed for what it really is = good old fashioned fear mongering as in fear of the unknown.Such, of course, has long been a staple of Christian fundamentalism in North America (prohibition, Scopes “monkey” trial, et al).That’s partly why fundamentalists keep rolling out their eschatological charts – to prove to themselves that the future really is known, and, come hell or high water, right down to the big toe on Tim LaHaye’s left foot, they really do know how it’s all going to turn out.



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neuro_nurse

posted April 11, 2007 at 9:29 pm


canuckelhead, Payshun, Kent W., Anonymous, You’ve all made some very good points to which I d like to add a few comments of my own. I looked at that website to which Donny provided us with the URL. I see nothing but scapegoating and Fear.There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love. 1 John 4:18 The stuff on that website is far too similar to the stuff posted on the Ku Klux Klan and Westboro Baptist Church (Fred Phelps) websites. Why should I concern myself with what my neighbors (a gay couple, as a matter of fact) are doing in their bedroom? I have my own sins that I need to deal with so does Donny, some of which are more apparent to others than they are to him.You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Romans 2:1For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles at just one point is guilty of breaking all of it. James 2:10 “If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses. Matthew 18:15-16 Donny, you have at least four witnesses here trying to show you your fault.



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