God's Politics

God's Politics


Duane Shank: Remembering the Past

posted by gp_intern

Philosopher George Santayana is credited with the saying, “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.” Over on The Huffington Post this morning, there is an excellent example of the truth of that statement. Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. writes: “In 1968, my father, running for president, addressed in a speech, the White House’s proposal for a troop surge in Vietnam. Robert Kennedy had initially supported the U.S. intervention in Vietnam. Forty years later, as Congress and the White House debate the further escalation of yet another war that has already claimed the lives of an astounding 640,000 Iraqis, killed 3,256 U.S. soldiers and wounded another 50,000, his words should have special resonance to those of our political leaders who are still searching for the right course in Iraq.”

The excerpt that follows could be delivered with only a few word changes as a speech today. It includes RFK’s reasons for concern about the escalating war in Vietnam:

“I am concerned – as I believe most Americans are concerned – that our present course will not bring victory; will not bring peace; will not stop the bloodshed; and will not advance the interests of the United States or the cause of peace in the world. I am concerned that, at the end of it all, there will only be more Americans killed; more of our treasure spilled out; and because of the bitterness and hatred on every side of this war, more hundreds of thousands of [civilians] slaughtered…”

And Bobby’s concluding charge is one for us to hear today:

“I ask you to go forth and work for new policies – work to change our direction – and thus restore our place at the point of moral leadership, in our country, in our hearts, and all around the world.”

His words make me remember why he was the first politician to gain my interest, that spring when I was 17 years old.


Duane Shank is Senior Policy Adviser at Sojourners/Call to Renewal.



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 6:34 pm


So – let’s not focus on Iraq but look at Darfur. Let us witness what the inaction of the UN does for Darfur. Going into Darfur will “…not bring peace; will not stop the bloodshed; and will not advance the interests of the United States or the cause of peace in the world. I am concerned that, at the end of it all, there will only be more Americans killed…”. So is it better to let the blood shed go on with no intervention on the part of anyone? The Mideast and the world will be a better place with an Iraq that is stable. I have read and heard the nay sayers all through history and in our present time. Had we listened to you – we would still be a British Colony. Had we listened to you we would be at best dealing with a Third Reich in Europe, at worst, having a Third Reich in North America. Sojo and company want us to be our brother s keeper as long as we don’t have to deal with the ‘bad guys’ in the world. (unless the bad guys are Republicans – whatever) Appeasement is what is in Vogue here with Sojo.Stay Home with Sojo (it could have been stay home with Tojo if we had dealt with the Empire of Japan like Sojo wants us to deal with the other Tojo’s of the world today – whatever) Later – .



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Sigmund Freud

posted April 5, 2007 at 7:15 pm


Lie down on that couch, moderatelad. Relax. Tell us about your childhood. Were you happy as a child? .



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 8:15 pm


Sigmund Freud | 04.05.07 – 1:20 pm | #wonderful happy childhood with parents that taught me critical thinking. could not have been better. Now – as for your ‘sleeping with your mother’ idea…what were you smoking? Have a great Easter – Passover – whatever Siggie. Later – .



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Avoiceofreason

posted April 5, 2007 at 8:22 pm


The surge hasn’t even really started, but will so in July once all the units are in place. War is ugly and unfortunate, but would it have been worth 55,000 casualties to avert Rwanda? Will the end goal of hopefully a stable and democratized Iraq be worth the investment in blood? Was WW2 worth it? Was the Civil War worth it? I hate to say it, but as far as the cost of human capital, this war from the US vantage point has not been terribly costly. There, I said it. Unless a policy where military actions are off the table, completely, it may be better to not overly dramatize the costs.



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 8:28 pm


Sigmund Freud | 04.05.07 – 1:20 pm | #Relative? (you dog…) Later – .



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jurisnaturalist

posted April 5, 2007 at 9:13 pm


Were WWII and the Civil War worth it? I know the horse is dead, but no. Neither was WWI or the Spanish American War or the Barbary Wars for that matter. I don’t believe slavery would have lasted another 20 years if we had not had the war. I do believe we would still have a less centralized government. I believe WWII would have never started if we had not intervened in WWI. I believe it would have been over in 1942 if we had not intervened. I believe fewer might have died, but a great many fewer Russians, Germans, Chinese, and Eastern Europeans would have died had we stayed out. What should be done to protect innocents. Go in and take the innocents out. Rescue operations instead of offensives would be met with much less resistance and done much more for the individuals rescued. This is something the church could do without the support of the state. Nathanael Snow



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Carl Copas

posted April 5, 2007 at 9:37 pm


Duane, thank you for a thoughtful and inspiring piece.



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squeaky

posted April 5, 2007 at 9:57 pm


Moderatelad, you have always given me the impression by action you mean military action. When I asked what China would do if that happened, you asked “what does China have to do with Darfur?” I’m trying to get you to tell me what you think the result of going in there guns ablazin’ would be, when many nations see Darfur as an important oil resource and need the current government in power to keep their oil supply stable. Please answer that question.



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Sarasotakid

posted April 5, 2007 at 10:36 pm


I hate to say it, but as far as the cost of human capital, this war from the US vantage point has not been terribly costly.Avoiceofreason I can see your point in terms of sheer numbers unless, of course, I was one of those killed. But where I see major problem with your thinking on this is that we should not look at this conflict solely from the US vantage point. The number of Iraqis killed, maimed or displaced is staggering. You may say that such is the cost of freedom and you may be right but the sad part of this is that the Iraqis did not choose for themselves- Bush chose it for them. This is a war of our making and we are responsible for the casualties. God forgive us.



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 10:57 pm


squeaky | 04.05.07 – 4:02 pm | #Darfur as an important oil resource and need the current government in power to keep their oil supply stable.I do not avocate that the first line is military. But deplomacy is worthless unless the other party knows that there are real consequences if they do not come to the table and come to terms. I take it that because China is involved with getting their oil from the persent gov’t – we should do nothing. I am inclined to agree with you as long as you will not being up other ‘Darfurs’ of the world with the idea that something needs to be done about it. Talk is cheap and just a lot of hot air. So – we are at a stale mate. You will not entertain the idea of military intervention and I will not waste my time in deplomacy if there is not some teeth in it so that they know there are consequences, real consequences.This is why I say Stay Home with Sojo Later – .



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Cads

posted April 5, 2007 at 11:06 pm


It’s easy to be a Monday morning quarterback as Bobby Kennedy was doing in 1968. Let us not forget that, as his brother’s most trusted advisor, they were the first to escalate the war in Vietnam by going from 1000 advisors to 11,000. The only thing he deserves credit for is admitting his original error. If only Bush could do the same.



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 11:11 pm


jurisnaturalist | Homepage | 04.05.07 – 3:18 pm | #I believe it would have been over in 1942 if we had not intervened. Guess you have not read any of Churchills writings. (Winston, not the psyco Ward) Unless you believe that it would have been better for Hitler to have all of Europe and then some. believe slavery would have lasted another 20 years if we had not had the war. So – how many more would have died on the plantations because of our inaction. The North was attacked first – you don’t believe in the just war idea either.Go in and take the innocents out. Rescue operations instead of offensives would be met with much less resistance and done much more for the individuals rescued. And where do you say we put them after we have gotten them out of ‘where-ever’ they came from. Do you really believe that the repressive gov’t that is causing the problem is going to let us in there and take their ‘work-force’ away without a fight – NOT! Can you point to anytime in history that your idea has been done and it worked…I don’t think so, but I would be interested in knowing. I am now looking for someone to print up my idea of a bumper sticker “Stay Home with Sojo!” I will send you the link with they are available so that you can order them for you hi-bread vehicle. Later – .



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squeaky

posted April 5, 2007 at 11:20 pm


The real consequences of military intervention could easily be an escalated conflict with China. that needs to be considered very carefully when one weighs the cost of war. I never said we shouldn’t do anything. What was the solution in South Africa? Weren’t economic sanctions placed on that nation that helped spur them on to change? I would think, as China moves towards capitalism, they would respond pretty seriously to economic threats. I’m not up on what Sojo advocates for Darfur, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they would also advocate for the more peaceful solution such as economic sanctions. So, if you want to do something–you earlier mentioned trying to scare up the funds to hire a rogue military or something like that–why not do something to pressure those who are capable of changing things (China), but who don’t because they are too focused on money and greed? Write your representatives, join Amnesty International, get involved. All Sojo is saying is find a peaceful solution. I don’t see why that is a problem for you, especially since they still want a solution.



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squeaky

posted April 5, 2007 at 11:31 pm


Additionally, Moderatelad–if you really care about Darfur, why are you wasting all your time here? If you don’t think Sojo isn’t doing anything about it, then why aren’t you beating down the doors of the people in power in this country? I hope you are directing your passion for Darfur towards those in power in this nation. You should be leaving voice messages and e-mails on Bush’s and every politician’s phone and computer every day.



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moderatelad

posted April 5, 2007 at 11:50 pm


squeaky | 04.05.07 – 5:36 pm | #Please – why am I going to leave voice-mails at 1600 Penn. Ave? Why are we not going to knock down the doors of the UN and demand that they get off their butts and do something since it is in their charter to handle disputes.South Africa was a repressive gov’t but one that dealt with the countries around the world and for as poor as they were toward that native people of Africa – they were a gov’t that you could deal with peacefully. The Sudan gov’t is not interested in US or the UN or anyone that they do not want to deal with. I know that there were people in there assisting the poor but had to leave for their own safety because of those in gov’t. I did not see that if SA.In dealing with people like those in charge of the Darfur region – might makes right. That is all that they respect. Talk shows weakness. Stay Home with Sojo! Have a great Easter if you celebrate it. Later – .



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neuro_nurse

posted April 6, 2007 at 12:29 am


Why are we not going to knock down the doors of the UN and demand that they get off their butts and do something since it is in their charter to handle disputes.moderatelad, Make no mistake, God has called me to work in Africa, and it breaks my heart to see what s going on in Darfur. When it is time, and if it is God s will, I would gladly go and serve in the Sudan. I think you misunderstand the position and the responsibilities of the UN. I know from thing I have read in the past that the UN High Commission on Refugees cannot intervene on the behalf of internally displaced persons.Despite enormous developments in the institutions, standards, and policies that set out to protect civilians in conflict, the United Nations is still an association of sovereign states committed to traditional principles of international order and constrained by the ability of the five permanent members of the Security Council to veto collective action. As the Security Council reaffirmed in all three of the resolutions on Darfur, the U.N. is committed to preserving the sovereignty, unity, independence, and territorial unity of its member states. In fact, for the majority of U.N. members, when there is a conflict, the principle of state sovereignty still trumps all other principles and norms. In addition, the veto power of the permanent members of the Security Council gives those five countries the United States, Russia, the United Kingdom, France, and China a unique power to protect and promote their national interests at the expense of global interests. In the case of Darfur, the main impediment to stronger action by the Security Council has been China, which owns a 40 percent share of Sudan s main oil producing field. At the council s special November 2004 session in Nairobi, China, and possibly Russia, which is thought to be the main arms supplier to the Sudanese government, used the threat of a veto to pressure other members to water down Resolution 1574. The United Nations and Darfur, Human Rights Watch, http://hrw.org/wr2k5/darfur/3.htm



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moderatelad

posted April 6, 2007 at 1:04 am


neuro_nurse | 04.05.07 – 6:34 pm | #Fine – so the veto power of China and Russia prevents the UN from doing what needs to be done to assist the people in Darfur. So – what can be done and who is going to do it since it seems that the UN in one giant Eunuch. Frankly it looks like it is going to to be just like Ruwanda and others. But look at it this way. In about 5 to 7 years they can make an award winning movie about it and we can all look at each other and say ‘someone should have done something…’ Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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neuro_nurse

posted April 6, 2007 at 1:15 am


‘someone should have done something…’ Maybe I missed something, consider me ignorant if you will, but spell it out for me, WHAT should ‘someone’ do, and just who is that someone?



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moderatelad

posted April 6, 2007 at 1:28 am


neuro_nurse | 04.05.07 – 7:20 pm | #WHAT should ‘someone’ do, and just who is that someone? That is the great question. ‘Someone’ never shows up and therefore nothing gets done. We know that they UN is unable or unwilling to do anything that could correct the situation. The US – well as split as we are over Iraq and even though I believe that we are there for several reasons including human rights. NO %^&* way am I going to agree with sending anyone in there to help out. SO – what do you think we should do?I be waiting for the movie.Rent “Sometime in April” or “Hotel Ruwanda” if you would like to see what the movie might be about. Later – .



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neuro_nurse

posted April 6, 2007 at 2:02 am


moderatelad SO – what do you think we should do? Dude, you’re the one who’s stirring this pot. Yes, it’s a tragedy. What am I doing about it? I give money to the ICRC and I’m working on my MPH so I can go back to work in Africa. There really isn’t anything more I know to do.What are you doing? You wrote, “let’s not focus on Iraq but look at Darfur.” Do you just want to change the subject away from Iraq? If you don’t have an idea about what ‘someone’ should do, then what is your point? BTW, it’s spelled Rwanda.



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jurisnaturalist

posted April 6, 2007 at 2:12 am


“Guess you have not read any of Churchills writings.” You mean the statist-socialist cousin of Roosevelt’s? No, never read him. Guess you have never read any of Hayek’s (Friedrich, not Selma) works either, though. “Unless you believe that it would have been better for Hitler to have all of Europe and then some.” Please explain how Hitler would take over the world while his army was several feet deep in Russian snow, overextended, and fractious in its support of the Fuhrer? The Allies call for absolute surrender was Hitler’s greatest tool for remaining in power. “So – how many more would have died on the plantations because of our inaction. The North was attacked first – you don’t believe in the just war idea either.” How many slaves would have died over 20 years? Probably less than the 300,000 men that died on the battlefield. I don’t know whether the Confederacy would have instituted a government more limited than the Union, but I do know that bringing the question to arms ultimately secured the Whig notion of Federalism. “And where do you say we put them after we have gotten them out of ‘where-ever’ they came from.” I say that as Christians we put them in our homes. Let them live with us. “Do you really believe that the repressive gov’t that is causing the problem is going to let us in there and take their ‘work-force’ away without a fight – NOT!” I believe that there would be less resistance to a rescue mission by apolitical groups than an offensive by one government against another.”Can you point to anytime in history that your idea has been done and it worked…I don’t think so, but I would be interested in knowing.” Never been tried. Doubt it will be tried. My point is that support of state action while not assuming personal responsibility first is unethical and uncourageous. Arguments over how the political mechanism ought to be manipulated under-transcend discussions about whether the political mechanism ought to be employed in the first place. Nathanael Snow



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butch

posted April 6, 2007 at 5:51 am


(China), but who don’t because they are too focused on money and greed Squeaky I don’t quarrel with much of what you say but re-read your words? An American calling someone “focused on money and greed”?



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Donny

posted April 6, 2007 at 6:00 am


Talk about forgetting the past, the Democrats are ruled by forces hell-bent on taking us back to godless socialism in the short term, and all the way back to Sodom and Gomorrah ultimately. They’re not moving on, they are repeating the past.



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butch

posted April 6, 2007 at 6:10 am


Donny you are the sickest pup I’ve ever run into!



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butch

posted April 6, 2007 at 6:49 am


This is completely unrelated to anything discussed on this thread but it just came to me. There is much criticism about bias in the news. I think the law should be that news programs should not be allowed to have commercials. They should be required to fund the news department with a percentage of gross sales. This should be a requirement for use of our airwaves.Further, there needs to be a firewall between the owners of the network and the news department. Not only can news departments report on the news they can also report on the truthfulness of other networks. Then we will only judge news by what is reported and the accuracy or usefulness of the report.



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Payshun

posted April 6, 2007 at 7:17 am


Umm historical clarification, technically the Civil War did not end slavery. There were still slaves after the war ended in the border states. p



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moderatelad

posted April 6, 2007 at 2:12 pm


Nathanael Snow jurisnaturalist | Homepage | 04.05.07 – 8:17 pm | #I say that as Christians we put them in our homes. Let them live with us. So you would go into the USSR and remove more than 80% of the people. I don’t think they would let you do that – they needed the workers, they enjoyed repressing people just like they did in Iraq – Darfur – etc. You idea is unworkable. Later – .



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moderatelad

posted April 6, 2007 at 2:14 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 04.06.07 – 1:22 am | #technically the Civil War did not end slavery The Proclaimation was signed durring the war that was started to preserve the Union. But we would be two countries because Sojo and company would not have agreed to the Civil War either. Stay Home with Sojo! .



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Sarasotakid

posted April 6, 2007 at 2:57 pm


The Proclaimation was signed durring the war that was started to preserve the Union. But we would be two countries because Sojo and company would not have agreed to the Civil War either. Stay Home with Sojo! Moderatelad Moderatelad,You are casting SOJO as holding a purely pacifist position on thse issues. I don’t think that that is accurate. The Anabaptists have historically been the Peace churches and although SOJO is very sympathetic toward their position on war, I don’t think SOJO has ventured so far. Please DO print the bumperstickers. I would put it on my car as a badge of honor. I would rather we stay home than do all the harm that we’ve done in the past four years in Iraq. I am sure that if we were to go to Darfur, you would be one of the first to enlist in the mission. ;-)Obviously if there had been oil or some other “vital interest” in Darfur or even Rwanda (Clinton’s failing) for that matter, we would have been right there with our talk about saving these people. But the godless politics of empire don’t work that way. Hence we’re not helping out.Peace.



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jurisnaturalist

posted April 6, 2007 at 4:29 pm


butch, News is entertainment and is paid for by advertisements. If the state were to enforce a law that required television stations to report the news without getting paid to do so, it would also influence the way the news were reported and we would lose the freedom of the press. Better to have a shallow free press which can and does report negatively on the state than one which is bound by de-facto censorship. moderatelad, I would go into the USSR and rescue as many as I could of those who were willing to leave. As more and more of their people escaped the USSR would have to adjust their policies to appease more of their citizens and keep them from trying to leave. You have ignored this secondary effect. Also, escapees who become productive once reunited with their liberty will have a strong desire to fund efforts to rescue their loved ones. Again, the aim here is to find the ethical response to oppression of innocents under foreign tyrants. Your solution is unethical. My solution is impractical, at present. In the long run my solution requires a shift in the way Christians think. Right now, most Christians seek solutions through the state. This is paganism, idolatry. My mission is to articulate the truth as clearly as possible and to influence the direction of Christian thinking. Nathanael Snow



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squeaky

posted April 6, 2007 at 6:31 pm


Moderatelad,You finally seem to be acknowledging that nations with interests in Darfur who are stopping the UN from doing anything about the tragedy that is going on there. You have yet to address the point that a possible solution is economic sanction against China to pressure them into changing their actions. Why wouldn’t that work? And why wouldn’t you be leaving voice mails on the president’s or any of your government representative’s phone machines? None of us here have the power to send an intervention force into Darfur. If no one tells those in power that the American people care about Darfur, nothing will change in our actions in Darfur. Specifically, what solutions do you suggest?Butch–I’d take your jab more to heart if I didn’t make the same accusations about money and greed towards our nation. This nation is all about money and greed. the problem is, third world nations like China want our affluence. What stops them from taking steps to change what is going on in Darfur? I suppose the difference is their goals aren’t entirely materialistic in that the material needs in that nation are far greater than they are here. So it is not purely greed, but just the need to provide for their citizens. In that sense I can see value in your point. In whatever sense, however, what often stops any nation (or any individual, for that matter) from doing “the right thing” with regards to human rights, the environment, or whatever, is money and greed–and power and corruption and national interests… That’s what makes the Kingdom of God so different from man’s kingdom. In Kingdom of God thinking, we are challenged to look beyond our self interests for the interests of others.



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Mike Hayes

posted April 6, 2007 at 11:06 pm


I agree with Duane. Those words of Bobby Kennedy about Vietnam in 1968 are far too applicable today, about Iraq. May our country be fortunate enough to find a way out, soon, and may the people of Iraq be successful in restoring order to their own country. As were the people of Vietnam. And may there not be another instance of interference in the affairs of another country, by our country, comparable to Vietnam or Iraq.



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moderatelad

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:22 am


squeaky | 04.06.07 – 12:36 pm | #And why wouldn’t you be leaving voice mailsBecause the way Iraq has split our country – no I am not in favor of doing that again. Yes I care about the people in Darfur but we will never agree about what should be done – so we do nothing. Sanctions – when have they worked? Not in Iraq – not on North Korea. I believe that Iraq can be a good thing for the world – a free and open country. Now we have Nancy P. determining diplomacy for the US. Right – if Newt had gone to the Balkins to talk with the big “M” about how things are going and what we could do – right The Clinton’s would have supported that one – NOT! No – let the UN do something about Darfur and leave the US out of it. We are one of the only countries that could do anything about it and morally should but no – no %^&*( way. Sojo – Pacifists r Us I truly believe after reading so many articles on this site that we could be bombed by Iran and Sojo would justify their doing it. I am my brother s keeper – and protector and at times rescuer. Not anymore. Our doing nothing over the next few years will just let more die in Darfur and make Rwanda look like a Sunday Picnic. Sleep tight tonight – we are not going to rescue anyone. Later – .



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moderatelad

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:29 am


Mike Hayes | 04.06.07 – 5:11 pm | #Those words of Bobby Kennedy about Vietnam in 1968 are far too applicable today, about Iraq. Interesting words since Bobby and his brother got us into the mess after Eisenhower told them to stay out of there. But good campain speach material. I personally believe that Bobby would have been a good Pres. better than his brother ever could be. Sojo – Pacifists r Us Later – .



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HASH(0x1195b548)

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:46 am


squeaky | 04.06.07 – 12:36 pm | #Specifically, what solutions do you suggest?Frankly my dear… That is not totally true but I tire of this talk – nothing is going to be done and God help the person that even thinks of military action. Like I have said – war is the last act of a rational society to deal with a irrational entity.If you are going to do the diplomatic routine – there needs to be some teeth in it or the other side just keeps you talking so they can keep doing what they are doing.You give them your concerns – why they need to change – if they don’t what you are prepaired to do to make them change. Then you set a time limit and do not waver. If in fact they do not comply – you execute what you said you would do and then ask them again if they would like to come to terms. The UN just draws a line in the sand and when they walk over it the say OK but you better not cross this one. Then they do and there is another line and another and another. If that is what is going to happen – just stay home and let the bad guys rule. Sojo – Pacifists r Us Sojo – Pacifists 4 Us Later – .



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Payshun

posted April 7, 2007 at 10:35 am


Hey Mod, Even w/ teeth there is no guarentee that the other side will stop.p



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moderatelad

posted April 7, 2007 at 4:57 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 04.07.07 – 4:40 am | #Yes – BUT, if you are going to take on evil – you better be prepaired to go to the mat to make a change. Evil only understands strength and power. Like in the movie the untouchables, “they send one of yours to the hospital – you send one of theres to the morgue.”They are killing people in Darfur even as we chatt – and all that Sojo is willing to do is talk. They know that and are willing to keep us talking so they can do what they are doing.If our police force here in the US handled things like Sojo would have us do in the world, the gangs would be ruling all over the place.Sojo – Pacifists r Us Happy Easter for us – not sure abuout our brothers and sisters in Darfur. Later – .



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Deryll

posted April 7, 2007 at 8:04 pm


Truly the ways of God seem as foolishness to man. Yet we are so foolish that we call ourselves Christians while rejecting the way of Christ.



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moderatelad

posted April 8, 2007 at 12:31 am


Deryll | 04.07.07 – 2:09 pm | #I am not rejecting the ways of Christ. I just would like the opertunity for those poors souls in Darfur to hear about the love of Christ. But how are we to do that if we are not allow to have contact with them? The people in charge are not going to let us in. If we bring food or medicine for the poor and sick – those in charge will take it away and use it for their own. Looks like diplomacy is failing, the UN is doing nothing difinitive about the situation. All the while 300 – 500+ souls die each day and we do nothing. Happy Easter? Sojo – Pacifists r Us Later – .



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Stacy

posted April 8, 2007 at 2:02 am


moderatelad, Just wondering, what are YOU doing about Darfur? Yes, you personally. It looks to me like you’re staying home with the pacifists at Sojo.



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Payshun

posted April 8, 2007 at 8:06 am


No evil understands nothing except its own power or in its case it’s own weakness. The power that Christ used to confront evil is greater than what you are describing. p



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Payshun

posted April 8, 2007 at 8:10 am


You mean like our president and government are doing right now? p



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Sigmund Freud

posted April 8, 2007 at 7:17 pm


Stacy asks the essential question: “moderatelad, Just wondering, what are YOU doing about Darfur? Yes, you personally. It looks to me like you’re staying home with the pacifists at Sojo.” If moderatelad wishes to do something constructive about Darfur, he can donate to any of a number of NGO’s that are already on the ground in the Sudan, providing humanitarian relief. For anyone serious about the Darfur tragedy I would recommend supporting Doctors Without Borders. But moderatelad ignores the opportunity to do something constructive about Darfur, his alleged concern. And he has offered nothing constructive to the dialog on Jim’s blog. He just takes cheap shots at sojo from the peanut gallery. Moderatelad is just another phony troll, like several others who post here. He baits the serious posters on this blog into distracting attention away from the topic at hand. Why should anyone care what moderatelad thinks? Why does he come here? Is he lonely? .



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Deno Reno

posted April 8, 2007 at 8:21 pm


MARANATHA…….He is Risen!



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Deno Reno

posted April 8, 2007 at 8:35 pm


A voice of reason… didn’t I see you at the peace rally last week carrying a sign saying “PEACE SUCKS” You think the causalties are Worth it? Whatever ” IT ” is. Democracy will not last a year past our Troop pullout if we stay in Iraq till 2050The United States should never have invaded Iraq. Our efforts would have been more sucessful to have focused on Afghanistan!



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Deno Reno

posted April 8, 2007 at 8:44 pm


The Cost in Dollars 415370000000. $



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moderatelad

posted April 8, 2007 at 11:44 pm


Sigmund Freud | 04.08.07 – 1:22 pm | #Sigmund…Sigmund…Sigmund… Please – I think that I have been very respectfull to all who post on here. Those that write articles – that is another thing. No – I am not supporting any of the programs that you talk about because there is no way that we can guarntee their safety. Are they really there and making any difference? I don’t believe that the gov’t is allowing them to receieve any supplies, the gov’t would have taken them away. If they are there and the gov’t would take them hostage – what are we to do about it. They have proven that in other Islamic Nations in the area it does not matter who you are or what you do. They will take innocent people and they might release them or they behead them. (dare I say D. Pearl)I not baiting – just asking the question(s). (you can stop with the ‘troll’ thing) We are still in Korea keeping the peace.No – I don’t think that we have the stomach for this anymore and should stay home. We (Sojo) will not stand up against evil in a manner that will make a difference. Yes – I know and understand the power of prayer – with the amount of prayer that my little church has done for peace in the world – something should have happened.There are many who here believe that we had no right to go to war in WWII. How sad – where would Europe be today if we had not gone to their aid. Just War – Bull…there will always be an out for Wallis and Sojo to not ‘justify’ armed intervention. So – we talk and talk and talk some more. The people in Darfur die – and they die – 300 to 500+ a day. I believe that a few well place missles would take out the leadership in the Sudan and we could get in there and bring help and peace to that region. Please – Tell me what they are doing diplomaticly to bring this carnage to an end? Let me know who at the UN I have to contact to let them know what needs to be done. I am not contacting our gov’t as so many of the articles on Sojo claim that the UN is more moral than the US – let the UN do it. Later – .



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Googlemeister

posted April 9, 2007 at 2:58 am


I wonder where moderatelad gets his information on Darfur. Has he ever tried googling Darfur to find the information he is looking for? Darfur has been the topic numerous times here on Jim’s blog. He could tap into the God’s Politics archives and read what has already been posted. If he really wanted to, he could become the resident expert on Darfur and would be telling us what should be done instead of asking stupid questions and arguing with our hosts. But what does Darfur have to do with Duane’s topic of Remembering the Past so America doesn’t keep making the same mistake getting into civil wars in foreign countries? Can moderatelad offer any suggestions for how to back out of Bush’s disastrous warmongering? Stay focused, moderatelad. And if you take the chip off your shoulder, people won’t be able to knock it off. .



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neuro_nurse

posted April 9, 2007 at 2:58 am

Googlemeister

posted April 9, 2007 at 3:23 am


More on Darfur: http://technorati.com/tag/Darfur Latest articles on ICC and Darfur in the Sudan Tribune: http://www.sudantribune.com/spip.php?mot95 Did you learn anything about Darfur, moderatelad? .



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Googlemeister

posted April 9, 2007 at 3:33 am


More recent news from the Darfur Peace and Development Organization: http://www.dpado.org/news.php Inform yourself and start making sense, moderatelad. .



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Googlemeister

posted April 9, 2007 at 3:50 am


United Nations Darfur Information Gateway: http://www.unsudanig.org/ .



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moderatelad

posted April 9, 2007 at 2:26 pm


Googlemeister | 04.08.07 – 9:03 pm | #Stay focused, moderatelad. And if you take the chip off your shoulder, people won’t be able to knock it off. No Chip to knock off. I believe that I am informed enough on the subject for this site.It is not difficult to argue here, Sojo = Bush Bad – Conservative Evangelicals = not worth listening to – Republicans = worthless (dare I say Nazi’s) UN = morally superior to the US – Clintons = model citizens – Democrats = political savior of the US. Now that you understand the foundation for Sojo – discussion is basic. Save your lincs GM, I look at several sites around the world.Have a great day -Later – .



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moderatelad

posted April 9, 2007 at 3:00 pm


Deno Reno | 04.08.07 – 2:40 pm | #Whatever ” IT ” is. I think that is was defined by Pres. Clinton…(tee hee) Later – .



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Payshun

posted April 9, 2007 at 8:20 pm


Umm Moderatelad, What are you talking about? Why do you take one man’s calling you all nazi’s to assume that is what this site is about? I don’t take Donny’s stupid comments to think that’s what you are about.UN not morally superior just not something we need to judge when we are just as big of hypocrits as they are. Clintons= normal human beings. We don’t villify them like your side does. Oh and if you feel that way why post here? p



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moderatelad

posted April 9, 2007 at 9:29 pm


Payshun | Homepage | 04.09.07 – 2:25 pm | #This is not how I ‘feel’, this is what I have learned by reading many of the articles on Sojo. (postings like you and I are different)You know – you might be correct. Why do I post here. I’m sorry – I thought that this was to be a place where people with differing views could chatt – text their views – open discussion. I am begining to believe that I was wrong. It is a place for liberals to get together and make each other feel good about what they say. Why do I bother to post… Later – ? .



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Payshun

posted April 10, 2007 at 1:45 am


I want you post but it just seems like you are miserable. I don’t know if you are but you come across as hurt and the people that hurt you won’t take responsibility for it. I am sorry that you are if you are but this isn’t bash conservatives 101. We criticize stances they take, argue over how they do things and are genuinely perplexed as to some of their values but no one that posts articles has ever called someone a name. Some have posted controversial articles but since when is that a bad thing? This is a site about progressive Christians having a place to focus on their goals and to encourage dialogue about these issues w/ folks from your side but half the time it rarely becomes a real dialogue and turns into some type of wedge or side issue where the issue the writer originally brought up is ignored to focus on some conservative grievance or annoyance. I think if we all could stick to discussing the article and focusing on that then this would get easier. p



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moderatelad

posted April 10, 2007 at 2:41 am


Payshun | Homepage | 04.09.07 – 7:50 pm | #Thanks for the encouragement! I am one of the happiest people I know. I love the discussion and I (weird that I am) rather like being the minority. The students that I work with PT are indoctrinated with the liberal slant of our educational system. I love talking with them and throwing the political ball around. So many times there reason fall short of critical thinking. I was even invited by one of the teachers to come and discuss issues of the day with him and his class. It was a great time and I was respectful to everyone. Wish I could say the same about the teacher as he ripped me a new one with his closing comments. I did not counter in kind but talk to the students about what had been discussed. In the end his attitude caused much of the class to rethink what he tells them. I know that I am not in control – God is. I know that the future is uncertain and for some scary – I tell them that I have read the final chapter and that the good guys win. I am an evangelical by virtue of my up-bringing, conservative by choice because of living in MN. A child of the One True God because I have surrendered my live to his will. Faith and Family are my biggest thrills in life.I pray for God’s Blessings on everyone. Can life be better… Later – .



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Deno Reno

posted April 11, 2007 at 1:06 am


Dony just like a certain news Channel un Fair and un Balanced



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moderatelad

posted April 11, 2007 at 1:24 am


Deno Reno | 04.10.07 – 7:11 pm | #but at least he would ‘rather’ not make up the news like some do. (chuckle) later – .



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