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God's Politics


Video: Iran Delegation on PBS’s NOW

posted by gp_intern


The delegation of religious leaders – including Sojourners/Call to Renewal’s Jeff Carr – that recently traveled to Iran was the subject of last week’s NOW. From the PBS summary:

Producer Jamila Paksima revisits her birth country of Iran with American spiritual leaders hoping to promote dialogue on such explosive issues as nuclear proliferation, the Iraq war, and the holocaust. … The 13-member team met with Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, top officials in the government, and several of the ayatollahs who have a powerful influence on government policy. Can this delegation of mostly Christian leaders defuse the standoff and reopen the lines of communication between America and Iran?

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+ Watch the video (Jeff Carr appears at 7:44, 12:26, 14:48, and 17:15)



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moderatelad

posted March 28, 2007 at 9:56 pm


More members for the Chamberlain Club.So take out you little pieces of paper and wave them in the air and say ‘Peace in our Time – Peace in our Time’. They say one thing to the group and then go out and call publicly for the demise of Israel.This is a group in Iran that is trustworthy? Please… Stay Home with Sojo! Later – .



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:12 am


lad Here are articles which may help you understand the value of faith, dialog and non-violence. http://www.catholic.org/diocese/diocese_story.php?id=21816 http://www.franciscan.org.nz/sultan.html



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 2:25 pm


Deryll | 03.29.07 – 2:17 am | #Thanks – but I understand the value. You are just dealing with people in Iran that do not, or they do but they have no respect for the west and will do anything that what to do. The talking of the US Embassy – the people that did that are now running the country. They have no respect for international law. The taking of British hostages both now and about three years ago. It has been proven that they were not in Iranian waters – but they will release them if they will admit that they were. Their leaders both political and religious have called for the demise of Israel and the US.The world has asked them to stop developing nuclear weapons and testing missiles. They are just thumbing their nose at us and doing what they want to do. They have assisted and financially help any number of terrorist groups that have caused problems all over the world. I believe that they gladly agree to meet with the delegation for Sojo and others and talked a good game. Then went back to their office and adjusted their game plan based on we will slow down and we think they are serious about coming to terms. They are going full speed ahead to achieve their goal and then Israel is at risk. Can you tell me one time when talking with people like these people has achieved a lasting and stable peace? They look at the west and weak and morally corrupt. With that view of us – it empowers them to attack us and dominate us and impost Islamic Law on the west. This is not an Iran vs. The World. This is a war of Ideologies and the word surrender is not in their language. So – what are we to do? Stay Home with Sojo. Later – .



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 3:26 pm


lad [Thanks - but I understand the value. You are just dealing with people in Iran that do not, or they do but they have no respect for the west and will do anything that what to do.] Your words suggest that you have no respect fot them as well. [The talking of the US Embassy - the people that did that are now running the country. They have no respect for international law.] And our CIA orchestrated the overthrow of their government in ’53, supported the dictator afterward, then gave Saddam WMDs to use against them in the ‘eight year war’. Our Government and many of our citizens, also have no respect for the U.N. and international law.[Their leaders both political and religious have called for the demise of Israel and the US.] Seems that “we” are calling for their demise now and “we” even caused the demise of their government in the past. With each condemnation of “them” we also condem ourselves; as “we” and “they” seem to be so much the same. [So - what are we to do?] We, as Christians, are to follow Christ; to, in the Biblical sense, heap coals of fire on their heads. Luke wrote of Jesus, “41As he drew near and came in sight of the city he began to cry over it saying, ‘If only you recognized today the way of peace! But the fact is; you just can t see it.” I believe Jesus weeps today still.



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kevin s.

posted March 29, 2007 at 4:46 pm


Deryll, Even if I cede your arguments, it remains unacceptable that Iran wishes to vanquish Israel and the United States. Dialogue has a value if it accomplishes what it needs to accomplish. Beyond that, it is just talk. Talk is useless in the face of active aggression.



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HASH(0x11ba398c)

posted March 29, 2007 at 5:19 pm


[it remains unacceptable that Iran wishes to vanquish Israel and the United States.] Of course, and it is unacceptable to the Iranians that “the west” can develop nuclear power and engage in enrichment but Iran cannot. To some in Iran (the “claim” by others is that they are not on the path to nuclear weapons) it is unacceptable for Iran’s neighbors Russia, Pakistan, Israel… to have the weapons and Iran is forbidden to have them. One claim/explination/example for the wiping Israel from the map statement is the example of the Soviet Union. Today the “Soviet Union” as an entity has been wiped from the “map.” Thankfully, it happened without nuclear war, but/and not all problems have been solved. Solving the problem of the disenfranchisement of the palestinians would do much to remove the fuel used by the crazies to stoke the fires of hate. Real “talk” with our “enemies” would as well.



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 5:22 pm


Anonymous | 03.29.07 – 11:24 am Opps, thats me.



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 5:46 pm


Deryll | 03.29.07 – 9:31 am | #“41As he drew near and came in sight of the city he began to cry over it saying, ‘If only you recognized today the way of peace! But the fact is; you just can t see it.” I believe Jesus weeps today still. I believe that the city was Jerusalem and he was weeping for the people in there as they were not able to see the peace that was available to them – for whatever reason. Would the Son of God have done the same if he were standing at the gates of Rome, Athens? I do not believe so as He was addressing his own people at that time – not the gentiles. NOW – in this day and time that peace is for the gentiles…but I believe that he would still be talking to the ‘believers’ in the One True God. If I am to track with your logic – I should destroy all the weapons that I have and allow what ever happens to me to happen. I am not allowed to defend myself or my family.This type of passivity to me has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. He never asked us to be a door matt or shooting target. Yes – we are to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, and give them our coat too. But he also asked us to care for the widow and orphan, weak, sick, poor, etc. I believe that even includes the use of force if necessary.That is why I say “Stay Home with Sojo” I think I will see if I can make a bumper sticker out of it. Later – .



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 5:57 pm


Deryll | 03.29.07 – 11:27 am | #Solving the problem of the disenfranchisement of the palestinians would do much to remove the fuel used by the crazies to stoke the fires of hate. I will say it would do ‘some’ but on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being the best results. I think you believe that it would be somewhere around a ’7 to 9′. I believe that it would be ’2′ at best. Arafat had Israel agreeing to about 90% to 95% of his demands under Clinton and then backed out because he as an Islamic person could never go into an agreement with a Jew.Iran has proven that they can not be trusted and should not be trusted. That is why the world community deems that they should not have nuclear capabilities. You talk about Iran in ’53 and the US aiding in the overthrow of the gov’t. But nothing is said about if the gov’t was good or bad. Pro West or Pro USSR. What were the issues that would cause this to happen? Later – .



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HASH(0x11ba77d0)

posted March 29, 2007 at 6:33 pm


[If I am to track with your logic - I should destroy all the weapons that I have and allow what ever happens to me to happen. I am not allowed to defend myself or my family.This type of passivity to me has nothing to do with the teachings of Christ. He never asked us to be a door matt or shooting target. Yes - we are to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, and give them our coat too. But he also asked us to care for the widow and orphan, weak, sick, poor, etc. I believe that even includes the use of force if necessary.] Jesus’ instructions were “to turn the other cheek, go the second mile, and give them our coat too… to care for the widow and orphan, weak, sick, poor, etc.” Precisely, we are not instructed to stand idly by; we are to take up our cross, even daily, and follow. We are to use the greatest forces in the world. Love and prayer. We are to be perfect in the manner in which the Father is perfect. [Iran has proven that they can not be trusted and should not be trusted. That is why the world community deems that they should not have nuclear capabilities.] I would argue that for the same reason no nation “should” have nuclear weapons.



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 6:41 pm


Anonymous | 03.29.07 – 12:38 pm me again!



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kevin s.

posted March 29, 2007 at 7:13 pm


“Of course, and it is unacceptable to the Iranians that “the west” can develop nuclear power and engage in enrichment but Iran cannot. To some in Iran (the “claim” by others is that they are not on the path to nuclear weapons) it is unacceptable for Iran’s neighbors Russia, Pakistan, Israel… to have the weapons and Iran is forbidden to have them.” That’s fine. This is why moral equivalency doesn’t work. We both have wants. They want nuclear weapons so they can wipe Israel off the map and we don’t.”Solving the problem of the disenfranchisement of the palestinians would do much to remove the fuel used by the crazies to stoke the fires of hate. Real “talk” with our “enemies” would as well.” No. It might make some gains with the “Arab Street”, but the crazies want Israel destroyed, which is why you can’t talk to these crazies.”I would argue that for the same reason no nation “should” have nuclear weapons.” Perhaps. But they do, and they are going to. As such, it is in our best interests to control proliferation, which will result in fewer of them being used.



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 7:47 pm


Anonymous Deryll | 03.29.07 – 12:38 pm | #You have to understand that I as a person embrace peace. I will hang in there a lot longer than some of my friends that are more hawkish than me to take to settle the issue peacefully. BUT – when I have come to the point that the cause is lost because the other party has no desire to come to terms and coexist peacefully together. Now – I bring out the big guns and we end the stand off / conflict. I am one that loves peace with my whole heart but I am in no way a pacifist as it has been described to me on this site. If all of the Christians in the world lived the paradigm that Sojo and their writers propose. It would take less than a month to dispatch all the Christians in the world to their heavenly reward. Love and Prayer are great tools for good and there have been times that they have made great change in the world. I do not see where they will have any effect on the Radical Islamists of this era. I will defend myself and my family. If a person was breaking down your door yelling for all to hear that he is going to kill you and everyone in your house, what would you do? My gun would be at the ready – I might shoot off a warning shot to let him know what he is dealing with. If and when the locked door is breached and he enters my house – one between the eyes.They broke down the door of the World Trade Centers and smashed the windows of the world in the London Tube. They still think that we are weak and immoral and do not deserve to live unless we convert to Islam.One between the eyes.The only other option is to “Stay Home with Sojo” Later – .



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:01 pm


[This is why moral equivalency doesn't work.] Thus, are we to be less moral? [It might make some gains with the "Arab Street",] There will be the crazies. We and they both have them. Gains on the street will affect the crazies credibility and ability to recruit.



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Deryll

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:07 pm


lad & kev I’ll be away for a few days. Thanks for the dialog! Grace and Peace! Deryll



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Paul

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:24 pm


History does keep repeating itself. For why terrorists love Sojourners see: http://www.opinionjournal.com/federation/feature/?id=110009862 cheers, Paul



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:31 pm


Deryll | 03.29.07 – 2:12 pm | #Have a great time away – chatt when you get back. Be safe. Later – .



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moderatelad

posted March 29, 2007 at 8:37 pm


To all – Just to keep things in some perspective. The innocent people dying in Darfur because of the UN’s inability to stop the maddness is at least 300+ per day from conservative estimates and as high as 500+ per day. This has been going on for over 2+ years. So – if nothing is done for the next year, that means that somewhere between 109,500+ to 182,500+ more will die.Stay Home with Sojo Later – .



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Carl Copas

posted March 29, 2007 at 11:05 pm


kevin s: “They [Iran] want nuclear weapons so they can wipe Israel off the map and we don’t.” Since Israel has nukes, for Iran to launch a nuke strike on that nation would be national suicide.The Iranians strike me as sometimes ruthless, always intenseley nationalistic, and very hard bargainers at the diplomatic negotiating table, but not stupid enough to start a nuclear exchange with a member of the nuclear club.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 30, 2007 at 12:25 am


Carl Copas, “The Iranians strike me as sometimes ruthless, always intensely nationalistic…” Respectfully, I lived in Tehran in 1978 and that is not my impression of Iranians. Deryll, “[O]ur CIA orchestrated the overthrow of their government in ’53…” Thank you. The idea that “they hate of because of our freedom is utter hogwash. The CIA helped overthrow the democratically elected president of Iran and reinstate the Shah, who was a despot of the worst stripe. The U.S. supported him throughout the next 26 years, not only having full knowledge of the SAVAK, but sent the CIA to train the secret police, who were notorious for suppressing dissent people disappeared and were tortured. We were warned by the U.S. Consulate to NEVER say anything negative about the Shah in public. I know there are many people here who are going to argue against this, but the U.S. helped create radical Islam, and our current course of action is only inflaming a situation that will, unless we change course, plague us for generations to come.



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neuro_nurse

posted March 30, 2007 at 1:06 am


Oh I know, I hear it already,our current course of action is only inflaming a situation that will, unless we change course, plague us for generations to come. Well, I don t hear anyone coming up with ideas about how to change course. Maybe that because you don t *want* to hear anything other than stay the course/but and run.Here s a couple of places to start when you re ready to listen: Baker, J. A., Hamilton, L. K. (December 6, 2006). Iraq study group report http://www.usip.org/isg/iraq_study_group_report/report/1206/index.html International Crisis Group. (December 19, 2006). After Baker-Hamilton: what to do in Iraq. http://www.crisisgroup.org/home/index.cfm?id=4580&l=1



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kevin s.

posted March 30, 2007 at 7:05 am


Baker’s recommendations do not preclude the current surge. “There will be the crazies. We and they both have them.” Enjoy being away (vacation?). Again, this is the sort of moral equivalency that doesn’t work.”The Iranians strike me as sometimes ruthless, always intenseley nationalistic, and very hard bargainers at the diplomatic negotiating table, but not stupid enough to start a nuclear exchange with a member of the nuclear club” Well, they don’t seem to think the Holocaust happened. They have also openly attacked aforementioned member of the nuclear club, yes? Stupid is as stupid does, as they say.



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Carl Copas

posted March 30, 2007 at 6:52 pm


“Well, they don’t seem to think the Holocaust happened. They have also openly attacked aforementioned member of the nuclear club, yes?” “They” haven’t denied the Holocaust. The president did, and was recently denounced by several religious leaders for doing that. I’m not aware of Iran ever openly attacking Israel.



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Carl Copas

posted March 30, 2007 at 6:52 pm


By ‘attacking’ I assumed you meant militarily.



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Page Howe

posted April 1, 2007 at 3:56 pm


in oswald chambers daily entry today, i dont think its clear where the iranians (as a people and as a government sit). Are they evil supporters of terror for which this may or may not be god’s time for us to mercifully engage, or meaningful souls in need of mercificul action. bebause of their governments use of terror , kidnapping, brinksmanship, picking on the weakest, i want to place them in gods hands, not my own. it is not only pacifity (the perceived sojo model)that can allow the lords plan to work. if we give their actions credence because of the desperate nature we would have to feel to ever do seomthing like they are,(suicide bombing, furthering violence in iraq and lebanon), we are giving them too much credit.just because i potentially feel that i would really have to be right to ever cost a life, or take a life; shouldnt make us think they are right if its pure selfishness, self preservation and greed that keep them on this course of action. while i may not know how to atone for our actions in 1958, how much of a “monoply get out of jail free card” do they get to makeup for that in their minds, i dont think our support of the shah gives them the right to threaten the lives of those they have taken captive today. Oswald Chambers April 1 Heartiness v.s. Heartlessness Towards Others”It is Christ . . . who also maketh intercession for us.” “The Spirit . . . maketh intercession for the saints.” Romans 8:34, 27Do we need any more argument than this to become intercessors – that Christ “ever liveth to make intercession;” that the Holy Spirit “maketh intercession for the saints”? Are we living in such a vital relationship to our fellow men that we do the work of intercession as the Spirit-taught children of God? Begin with the circumstances we are in – our homes, our business, our country, the present crisis as it touches us and others – are these things crushing us? Are they badgering us out of the presence of God and leaving us no time for worship? Then let us call a halt, and get into such living relationship with God that our relationship to others may be maintained on the line of intercession whereby God works His marvels.Beware of outstripping God by your very longing to do His will. We run ahead of Him in a thousand and one activities, consequently we get so burdened with persons and with difficulties that we do not worship God, we do not intercede. If once the burden and the pressure come upon us and we are not in the worshipping attitude, it will produce not only hardness toward God but despair in our own souls. God continually introduces us to people for whom we have no affinity, and unless we are worshipping God, the most natural thing to do is to treat them heartlessly, to give them a text like the jab of a spear, or leave them with a rapped-out counsel of God and go. A heartless Christian must be a terrible grief to Our Lord.Are we in the direct line of the intercession of our Lord and of the Holy Spirit?



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