Flunking Sainthood

Flunking Sainthood

Mormons and Gays After Proposition 8: Guest Blogger Carol Lynn Pearson on LDS Efforts to Build Bridges in Berkeley

CLP Resized.jpgBy Carol Lynn Pearson

Imagine: A room filled to overflowing with LDS Church members there to listen to several gay and lesbian people speak of their spiritual journeys–Pentecostal, Roman Catholic, Seventh-day Adventist, Jewish, Religious Scientist, Quaker, Unitarian Universalist, LDS–and most importantly what their marriage or other relationship means to them.

Imagine: Mormons and gay people (and Mormon gay people) sharing hymnals and singing “A Mighty Fortress Is Our God” as an opening hymn and “All Creatures of our God and King” as a closing hymn.


Imagine: An invocation intoned by a shining African-American gay man, praying that the meeting would be filled with “love and fellowship, and that we might all be changed for the better,” and a benediction pronounced by a devoted Mormon, thanking our Heavenly Father for “the warmth and light we have shared, the love and spirit of gentleness we have felt here as thy children,” praying for those who have been cast out and rejected, and asking for a blessing “as we continue the important work begun this night.”

Imagine: another devoted Mormon welcoming this diverse group with a reminder that–just as the followers of Christ after his death did not yet have an understanding that the good news of the gospel was intended for the gentiles as well as the Jews–we continue today to “figure things out,” step by step, extending and embracing.


Imagine: hearing gay couples speak of their marriages or committed relationships, making clear that they ask for the “rights” of marriage, but no less importantly desire the “responsibilities,” of marriage, saying, “My marriage is my spiritual practice. It is the most challenging and most rewarding thing in my life.”

It happened–Tuesday evening, July 6, 2010, led by the Coalition of Welcoming Congregations, Pacific School of Religion, and hosted by the Community Service Committee of the Berkeley LDS Ward. And as I watched the smiles, the embraces, the expressions of appreciation as we made our way to the obligatory cookies and punch, I knew that indeed we all had been “changed for the better.”


Most Mormons, certainly those in California, have been achingly aware of the high price paid for their church’s heavy role in the passage of Proposition 8 in 2008, rescinding marriage rights for gay people in that state. “Us against Them” has frequently been the bitter result on both sides. And I, along with many Mormons, have long felt a need to address the pain of gay people and their families within a church that does not condone gay relationships. “Us against Our Own” has often been an even more painful consequence.

Last year the Presidency of the Oakland Stake, the geographical unit of which I am blessed to be a member, responded to the clear need to educate “us” and build bridges with “them.” The three members of this presidency, men of remarkable vision and commitment, went to each of the wards (congregations) in our stake and gave to the adults a special presentation on better understanding and loving our gay brothers and sisters. The singular intent was to educate, enlighten, and challenge the members to refrain from judgment and unkindness, to reach out with respect and Christlike love to those who are gay, within and without our church community. I personally have a long list of little (large, really) miracles that have happened in our stake as a result.


Many seeds were sown through that remarkable event. Those who were present the other night for the experience in Berkeley were, to my own observation, thrilled to be present for an unmistakable and beautiful flowering of some of those seeds.


Will there be future opportunities created for Mormon folk and gay folk to come together to continue the divine process of turning “them” into “us”? Of course.

It is time.

It is correct.

For indeed we are: “All Creatures of Our God and King.”


For a Salt Lake Tribune article on the work of the Oakland Stake, a syllabus created by the stake president, and several talks by members, click here. Another good website is The Bay Area Coalition of Welcoming Congregations.

Carol Lynn Pearson is an active Mormon in Walnut Creek, California, and the author of numerous books, notably Goodbye, I Love You, the story of her LDS temple marriage to a gay man, No More Goodbyes: Circling the Wagons around Our Gay Loved Ones, and Facing East, a stage play about a Mormon couple dealing with the suicide of their gay son.

  • zehill

    Thank you, Carol Lynn and Jana, for spreading this fantastic news! I hope to see something similar in my area (and the rest of the world, too).

  • Jana Riess

    I second that.

  • Kathy O

    I applaud all efforts to increase understanding between all faiths and family bonds. I hope that the understanding will go both ways. I support traditional marriage and still love, respect and admire my many gay friends and family members. I think it is simplistic to assume all people who support traditional marriage do so out of hate or small mindedness. I hope these efforts will do much to create healing.

  • stephen

    Any connection to the Mormon Church or the Katholic Khurch Kulture in this forum coddles people into believing that they are somehow in support of equality for gay people. They are NOT, and if you somehow believe they are you are DEEPLY in denial.
    The individual is not the church. I am pleased that people want to learn more about the human experience of others and how if may differ from their own, but that stops short of believing in ANY WAY WHATSOEVER that these churches are not dangerous to my equality in even a nation as somewhat progressive at the US.
    You doubt me? Check out the latest from the unholy coalition of the Katholics and the Mormons- google “gay marriage Argentina Catholic Mormon” and have a dose of reality.

  • Norman

    Gays will never forgive Mormons until Mormons stop attacking our full, equal rights
    Marraige in this country is a civil affair whether religious nuts like it or not.
    We will gain full equality and the Mormons will go down in history as bigoted and mean spirited and obssessed with gays.
    I am glad they are reaching out but no gay will reach back until they stop fighting with their wicked, bigoted ways
    Besides, Mormons have a lot of nerve fighting to protect marriage when only a century ago they had multiple wives…
    Mormons were seen as a crazy cult that wears magic underwear-now they added bigot to that list…good job, Mormons!

  • Dave

    My church (Methodist, and there are others) supports same-sex marriage. Do you believe that we should not practice our religion as we see fit? If my pastor wants to marry two women, why not? Because you believe differently? Then, do I have the right to dictate your religion. Mormons have a long tradition of being discriminatory. It too bad that you can not rise above it in this instance.
    I have a real problem with the way that the Mormon church raised money for Prop 8. It was underhanded and illegal to funnel money through your members and under-report the non-cash contributions. In the process of trying to take away someone other’s rights, the Mormons became sleazy themselves. I would like to be tolerant of you, but right now, the pain that you have inflicted on my family and friends makes that difficult.
    I keep thinking that its too bad that the Mormons and Catholics did not behave like Christians, the outcome would have been better for all.

  • Kay

    1. Dave, my friend, you’re seriously delusional if you think the Church funneled money through its members. You’ve never sat in a Mormon meeting where they are looking for volunteers of time and money. Trust me – the Church may have asked/coached/challenged, but they did not funnel.
    2. If you think that it’s time to get back at the Mormons for all the evil they’ve done you, you’ve obviously forgotten the history of the 19th Century (Norman). Most Mormons are used to being picked on and considered 2nd-Class. Most Mormons think it’s great they won the ballot initiative, even if they privately disagreed.
    3. I don’t think the Mormons care if another Church decides to “marry” whoever they want; it’s a case of whether it’s a legal marriage.
    4. Most Mormons don’t know who Carol Lynn Pearson is. She might be popular in the tiny, navel-gazing corner of the Mormon Church called the Bloggernacle, but she doesn’t speak for the Church. stephen is very correct above in that you have to look to SLC to see where the current Mormon sentiment lies.

  • JD

    If I’d known about it, I might have been interested in going to that, as an “inactive” Mormon now living in Berkeley. I can imagine that the LDS congregations in the Bay Area may be more engaged and open than some other wards. I remember being SO disappointed when the First Presidency came out in favor of Prop 8 (“but were you surprised?” a gay friend asked me–made me realize that I still prefer to think the best of the church, even though I don’t believe in its authority or dogma). Before the election, my spouse spotted a group of people standing out near the Mormon Temple in Oakland waving “Yes on 8″ signs, which also disgusted me. I assumed they were LDS. I drove by myself later, but didn’t see them.

  • Jeff

    This article might have more validity if the LDS church wasn’t in the news TODAY spreading the same lies about same sex marriage in Argentina. They have not changed.

  • Daniel

    The statement in Argentina was simply a reaffirmation of the LDS Church’s belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. No “lies” were involved, unless you believe that the LDS Church suddenly supports same-sex marriage.
    Mormons have a collective memory of the violations of our freedom of religion that occured after marriage legislation did not go our way in the 19th century. If anything, the Mormon history with polygamy motivates Mormons to get more involved in protecting the Church’s stance on marriage because of fears that the institutionalized persecution of Mormons in the 19th century will be repeated. More contemporary news stories of businesspeople being prosecuted for not supporting same-sex marriage in Massachusetts have added to those fears.
    Carol Lynn Pearson,
    Thanks for the article.

  • Teresa

    Jana Riess and Carol Lynn Pearson – Thank you. I just spent the time to read every word of this posting and the words On the Important Work in the Oakland Stake Toward Better Understanding and Loving Our Gay Brothers and Sisters. And now there are 3 very used napkins next to me from all the crying and nose blowing. I don’t know the gay people in my LDS stake, but I will make an effort to let them know that I am a safe person to talk to. I do know some of the non-Mormon LGBT young people and colleagues in my community and will do my best to make sure that they know that the tone of this post and the talks posted by Carol Lynn Pearson are how I feel. Dave and any others who feel the same, feel free to have anger toward the Mormon Church, as much anger as you want, but please don’t shun every Mormon you encounter because of it. You might even think some of us are worth knowing. Many of us don’t shun Methodists, LGBT people, or actually people who are different from us at all. We have so many more things in common than we have differences. I choose to focus on the things in common.

  • DaveP

    The LDS church collected huge sums of money to spread lies about gay people in order to convince the public to hurt these people by taking away their equal rights.
    While I’m glad that not all members of the church support these activities, or at last no longer support these activities, it’s going to take a lot more than a few feel-good group prayers to make any progress toward undoing the damage that was done.
    If you REALLY do not support the idea of using religeous beliefs to hurt other peoples families by denying them equal rights, DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT. Join one of the many groups that is working to stop this kind of oppression like Equality California. A lot of LDS members were going door to door and standing on street corners waving “Yes on 8″ signs in 2008. When the same number of LDS members put in the same amount of effort to make ammends we will be able to move on. But until then, anyone in the church who participated in this oppression or who didn’t speak up and try to stop it is still in the wrong and still owes ammends for hurting these people.

  • Sheryl Carver

    Kay wrote:
    1. … Trust me – the Church may have asked/coached/challenged, but they did not funnel.
    Dictionary definition of the verb “funnel”: to concentrate, channel, or focus: They funneled all income into research projects.
    So, yes, if the Church participated in channeling members’ money to support Prop 8, they funnelled.
    Kay wrote:
    2. … Most Mormons are used to being picked on and considered 2nd-Class. Most Mormons think it’s great they won the ballot initiative, even if they privately disagreed.
    Mormons can serve openly in the US Military. Mormons are protected from discrimination based on their religion in employment, housing, etc, If you think Mormons are 2nd class citizens, then we LGBT folks must be somewhere around 4th class or lower. & that’s not even counting marriage INequality.
    I have no idea how someone can be happy that Prop 8 won if they privately disagreed. That sounds like being happy a Jim Crow law was passed while claiming to disagree with racism.
    Kay wrote:
    3. I don’t think the Mormons care if another Church decides to “marry” whoever they want; it’s a case of whether it’s a legal marriage.
    That’s called meddling in other citizens’ legal civil rights. I don’t care who your Church decides to “marry” either. In this country, a religious ceremony is NOT required to be married. No quotes. So no church has to marry or “marry” anyone. No one has forced the Catholic Church to marry divorced people. However, divorced people can still get legally married.
    Please keep your religious beliefs out of my life.

  • davep

    Daniel said:

    The statement in Argentina was simply a reaffirmation of the LDS Church’s belief that marriage is between a man and a woman. No “lies” were involved”
    Not true at all. The LDS is not merely ‘stating a belief’ about same sex marriage, it is actively campaigning to deny equal legal rights to same sex couples and their families. It does this by spreading lies about how marriage equality ‘harms children’ (when the opposite is true – DENYING marriage equality harms the children in these families by denying them important legal protections, insurance coverage, etc). It spreads lies about how marriage equality will ‘force churches to perform gay marriages’ when they know full well that this is not the case. No church can be forced to perform ceremonies that conflict with that churches beliefs, and this isn’t about church weddings anyway. It’s about equal LEGAL rights and equal LEGAL protections that come from CIVIL marriage and a state issued marriage license. There are more examples. Lots more. And the LDS church is still doing it. Stop denying. The truth will set you free.

  • Ray in MA

    This “Coming Together” is a positive step forward. BUT…
    I was finally “allowed” to marry (in 2004 in Ma) after 23 years of a loving togetherness with my life partner. Our relationship had no impact on anyone but ourselves. Society’s oppression had a bigger impact on us, as we realized even more after following the proceedings of the PROP 8 Trial.
    There are SO MANY facets to the problem at hand. Below is an article by Richard T. Hughes is Distinguished Professor of Religion at Messiah College and author of Christian America and the Kingdom of God.
    If you say that some LDS were on guard because of the oppression suffered by boycotts in MA in 2004, consider the hate and bigotry being spewed by Christians since Anita Bryant … which evolved into a big money making enterprise by a Christian majority!
    One poster (PamC) at the PP8TT made a comment that is missing from the editorial opinion below:
    “it’s easier to get money if you scare people instead of getting them to care about other people or the planet”
    That is one critica point missing from this “opinioin”:
    Let me be frank from the outset: A great cultural divide is ripping the heart from this nation and Christians are partly responsible.
    I say that because 83% of the American people claim to be Christians. If those Christians lived as they are taught to live by the teacher they claim to follow, the American public square would be a very different kind of place.
    If one reads the New Testament—the charter for the Christian religion—one can discover rather quickly what that tradition is all about.
    Jesus tells his followers to tell the truth.
    Jesus tells his followers to make peace.
    Jesus tells his followers to turn the other cheek.
    Jesus tells his followers to bless those who persecute them and pray for those who misuse them.
    Jesus tells his followers to extend justice, especially to the poor and the dispossessed.
    Jesus tells his followers to serve as bridge-builders and agents of reconciliation.
    And Jesus tells his followers to love one another, even their enemies.
    But based on their words and behavior, we may safely conclude that many of the Christians who dominate America’s public square routinely reject the teachings of Jesus, in spite of their claims to the contrary.
    Sharron Angle, for example, wants to be the next U. S. Senator from Nevada. She founded a Christian school but casually announces that “the nation is arming” since “if we don’t win at the ballot box, what will be the next step?” For Angle, that next step is clear: those who oppose the current administration may “have to fight for their liberty in more Second Amendment kinds of ways.” In other words, if the ballot fails, the bullet is the next best hope.
    Sarah Palin is open about her allegiance to the Christian faith, but routinely trades in sarcasm, deceptions and lies about her political opposition. During the health care debate, she repeated over and again the falsehood that “the sick, the elderly, and the disabled . . . will have to stand in front of Obama’s ‘death panel’ so his bureaucrats can decide . . . whether they are worthy of health care.”
    Newt Gingrich trumpets his allegiance to the Christian religion and writes about the role of the Christian faith in American history. He also knows that Barack Obama is a Christian. Yet he shamelessly denounces Obama as “secular”—a term Gingrich defines as an “outlook [that] does not acknowledge God.”
    No wonder that some Tea Partiers claim—as one woman put it—that “we are losing our country; we think the Muslims are moving in and taking over; we do not believe our president is a Christian.”
    Glenn Beck warned a national television audience to “look for the words ‘social justice’ or ‘economic justice’ on your church Web site. If you find it, run as fast as you can,” adding that those terms are code words for communism and nazism. Surely Beck knows that there is no theme more central to biblical faith than social and economic justice for the poor, but still he is willing to distort the Christian religion for cheap political gain.
    Ann Coulter promotes herself as a representative of the Christian religion. Yet, Coulter claimed after September 11, 2001 that the United States “should invade their countries [Muslim nations], kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”
    When public figures like these so completely diminish the Christian faith, it is hardly surprising that grassroots believers often engage in similar distortions of the Christian religion.
    Some Christians at anti-Obama rallies have displayed signs that proclaim, “Since 1630: Bible hugging! Gun toting! Red Blooded American Against Tyranny.” Or another: “I will keep my freedom, my Bible, my gun, and my money.”
    When Christians so widely and publicly embrace such blatant distortions of the Christian religion, they abandon one of the roles they might have played in America’s public square: fostering civility and dialogue and building lasting bridges of reconciliation.
    But civility and respect have been all but lost in contemporary American politics. Alan Keyes, for example, has proclaimed that “Obama is a radical communist.” And one of the signs that routinely appears at anti-Obama rallies shows the President wearing a Nazi uniform and doing a Hitler salute. Another sign reads, “Barack Hussein Obama: the New Face of Hitler.” Those kinds of accusations are nothing short of slander.
    The issue I am raising has nothing to do with whether one is a Republican, a Democrat, a Tea Partier, or an independent. Neither political conservatives nor political liberals have a monopoly on this kind of behavior, though in recent months conservatives opposed to Barack Obama have been especially guilty.
    Yet the issue I am raising ultimately has nothing to do with whether one likes or dislikes Barack Obama. The issue has to do with Christians behaving like Christians and thereby telling the truth, doing justice, and promoting basic respect for other human beings.
    After all, since 83% of the American population identifies with the Christian religion, that 83% could make an enormous difference in the tone of American politics if those Christians actually practiced what they profess to believe. They could also make a positive difference in American politics if they held other Christians accountable when they engage in deception and slander in order to score political points.
    America’s churches and their pastors therefore have a grave responsibility: to urge their members to serve the public square as peacemakers, as truth-tellers, as people devoted to justice, and as men and women who are actually willing to practice what Jesus taught. If America’s churches refuse to take up this task—which, after all, is a task that is central to the Christian calling—the consequences for our country could be dire, indeed.
    The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of Richard T. Hughes.
    Posted by: The Editors – CNN Belief Blog

  • Sheryl

    Would just like to say that most of the anti-Mormon Church sentiments that I’ve read here are fairly correct. The Berkeley Ward is not the leadership of the LDS Church, neither is the Oakland Stake. However, change has to begin somewhere and I only wish that more stakes had such enlightened leaders. I was at that meeting and it was very spiritual. Of course, I’m in the choir, I did not contribute to the Yes on 8 campaign, my husband and I had our “No on 8″ bumper stickers, I volunteered on the “No on 8″ campaign, I voted No on 8. I am a Mormon and I was appalled at my Church’s involvement in the campaign and when I heard a member of my ward state that allowing gay marriage would impact his marriage, I could only wonder HOW?
    As for Carol Lynn Pearson only being known in her area, I believe you are wrong. I knew who she was before I ever moved to California from Utah. She is a prominent writer and I believe most Mormons would know her by one or more of her books or plays, they may not know of her work in the LGBT community, although her play, Facing East, did open in SLC. And, she has never claimed to speak for the church, she speaks for herself.
    Perhaps if more wards in the Oakland Stake hold a meeting like the Berkeley ward did, other stakes in the area might soften and hold similar meetings or meetings like the Oakland Stake did with the individuals ward in the stake. Change has to begin somewhere. Talking and understanding have to be the stepping stones.

  • http://Http:// Marsha Keller

    Ah, such an emotional issue, on both sides. I adore Sister Pearson, and her work. Have for many, many years. I also love many alternate gender individuals. Labeling a people with an emotionally charged title like ‘racist, bigoted, whatever’ has never assisted to further dialogue.
    Giving ‘examples’ doesn’t assist either, for they can be found in abundance on both sides.
    My suggestion would be to simply take the word ‘marriage’ out of it. Legalize ‘civil unions’, and leave marriage to the spiritual realm. My religious reasons out of the mix, my difficulty is in people trying to say that ‘it is only between my partner and I’. No, it isn’t. Families, as they are traditionally defined, is how our society is set up. A change in that set-up, will fundamentally change society. To deny that is foolishness. Agree or disagree, putting on blinders to the larger scope is not honest.
    If we agree to completely change our society and how it works, that is one thing, but to try and smile and nod and pretend that such a basic unit change will only affect a few individuals is naive at best.

  • Rebekah

    I have to say that I completely agree with what Marsha said. I am a member of the LDS Church. I whole-heartedly believe the Church’s involvement with this proposition was to protect the family as it is currently defined. A change in that definitely would definitely change how our society works, as Marsha said.
    As far as the money that was spent by members of the Church to pass Prop 8, it was spent on communicating to the public what a “yes vote” meant and what a “no vote” meant. The language was simple: a “yes vote” would prevent same-sex marriages from being legal in California; a “no vote” would allow same-sex marriages to be legal in California. On top of that, people were also asked if they knew how they were voting. That was the extent of the language advocated by the leaders of the Church. There was no trying to persuade on either side.
    From what I heard, many people on both sides of the debate were grateful for the information. I am certain that the “no” side got several votes because of those phone calls informing them about what their vote meant.

  • Ruth

    Ray in MA has a long, long statement filled with half-truths and is so ill-informed. How sad.
    I love “gays.” My son is “gay.” I work with “gays” in an LDS Church group and love them all. My goal is to get members to understand and love them.
    It is easy and fun to deride the Church. What is hard is to realize the value of one man/ one woman, and that it is best for children (the basis of many of our laws), and the best system ever for a society to flourish. I would not care if my son “married” and even adopted a child. I want him to be at peace and he has SO much to give.
    But he would not expect to have his marriage sanctioned by any Church.
    He would not need to destroy or change my beliefs to fulfill his.

  • dave

    That’s pretty strong to call someone delusional. My understanding is that Mormons could deduct what they gave to proposition 8 from their tithing. Since Mormons take their tithing very seriously and it proposition 8 was an alternate way to give, that sounds to me like the redirection or funneling of funds.
    I am a descendant from a long line of RLDS (not LDS) church members. I know the story. And no form of discrimination is correct. But to say that it is acceptable or even a positive thing to discriminate against another group because you have been discriminated against yourselves is pretty heavy stuff. Put this in context. Do you think that the Mormons have had a rougher time than African Americans, Asian Americans, native Americans, Jews. Do these groups have the right to discriminate against you?
    I have not personally been wronged by Mormons. Some of my friends, in fact, subscribe to your religion. However, that does not change the fact that the Mormon church as an entity behaved badly and encouraged their members not to think for themselves, but to choose to hurt others.

  • Jana Riess

    Dave, I agree with you that no form of discrimination is correct, and I believe that the LDS Church was wrong in its decision to heavily sanction Proposition 8 and to so strongly encourage church members in California to support the measure with their own time and money. However, in our anger let’s remain clear about the facts: At no time and in no way did the LDS Church ever permit members to regard private donations to Proposition 8 as tithing.

  • Don

    Nothing could ever cause me not to love and admire CLP who is a true peacemaker. Likewise, nothing wil ever convince me that the Mormon Church and most of its members are my sworn enemies as a homosexual American. Our Constitution guarantees Mormons and any other religion the right to believe and practice as they choose, but it also promises me equal protection under the law. I am entitled to marry whom I choose, as long as they are a consenting adult, and have claim only to civil equality, not the right to force any religion to like me or marry me. The Mormon Church engaged in a huge, expensive campaign to demonize, marginalize and make homosexuals unequal under the law, and they are now and forever the most dedicated and well financed enemy we have. No amount of touchy feely nonsense from a few members of the MC will change that. Someone please tell me when ‘the healing’ begins—I can hardly wait.

  • Don

    should read ‘not my sworn enemies’

  • Anne

    As a person who used to identify as gay and chose to give up a committed gay relationship and a gay identity, I am grateful for the gospel that helped me do so. The LDS gospel is founded on the union of man and woman as the basis of eternal lives, of creation itself. We believe we’re here on this earth to prove we’re willing to give up anything in order to follow the eternal plan.
    The Church’s defense of marriage between one man and one woman included the support of Prop 8 because it is also a social issue. The Church leaders believe it is important that we set such a union apart as the optimum situation. More and more people are experimenting with bisexuality, and the LDS Church believes it is important to show that as a society, we believe it is more beneficial for people to choose a committed relationship with a member of the opposite sex and marry in order to raise children with a mother and a father in the home. Is the optimum situation always sustained? Of course not. But the LDS belief system includes the belief that marriage between a man and a woman is of the utmost importance. For those who feel they have no choice and are committed to a member of the same sex, we believe it is important to extend individual rights but not consider the relationship to be the same. A ridiculous belief system? Perhaps. But how can anyone prove that the belief system stating it does not matter whether or not children have both a mother and a father in the home is any less ridiculous?
    In America, we are supposed to be free to believe as we choose. Prop 8 represented a conflict of belief systems. There is no “proving” who is right and who is wrong. However, we need to respect the right of both sides to believe as they see fit. I have witness people on both sides of the issue who seem to forget that.
    When I was in a committed gay relationship I never wanted it to be called or considered a “marriage”. I didn’t believe it was the same as marriage, and took pride in the fact it was different—fewer rights and all. Everybody has different viewpoints. Common respect for that fact would be a welcome change.

  • Nathan

    ce blog, just book marked it for later reference

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