Flirting with Faith

Flirting with Faith


Are We on the Road to Legalizing Incest?: The Rise and Fall of Taboos in a Changing Society

posted by Joan Ball

Columbia University Professor David Epstein was arrested last week and charged with having “consensual” sexual relationship with his 24-year-old daughter. Epstein’s lawyer, Matthew Galluzzo, tells ABCNews.com: 

“Academically, we are obviously all morally opposed to incest and rightfully so. At the same time, there is an argument to be made in the Swiss case to let go what goes on privately in bedrooms.” 

Galluzzo goes on to say, 


It’s OK for homosexuals to do whatever they want in their own home…How is this so different? We have to figure out why some behavior is tolerated and some is not.”
In an interview with the Huffington Post, Galuzzo also questions whether “prosecuting incest was ‘intellectually consistent’ with the repeal of anti-sodomy laws that resulted from Lawrence v. Texas in 2003″ and asserts that “what goes on between consenting adults in private should not be legislated” because the bedroom “is not the proper domain of our law.”
ABC News is now crowdsourcing on Facebook, “should incest between consenting adults be legal?”  
While there will surely be much blogosphere debate about the content of this question, I find myself drawn to some larger issues this case raises. Specifically, I wonder where and how societal norms are created and enforced when there is no “true north” by which to navigate? I am also interested in Galluzzo’s distinction between being “academically morally opposed” to incest and noting that “an argument can be made” for it?  Does this mean that legal arguments do/should always trump morality? 
Love to hear your thoughts on this…


Advertisement
Comments read comments(63)
post a comment
nnmns

posted December 15, 2010 at 9:22 pm


Two things, both speaking strongly against sex between parent and child:
Both partners should be freely consenting. Father and daughter could be, but in any parent-child relationship there’s a world of baggage.
There should be no chance of a pregnancy because of the chance of a birth defect, which must be quite high for parent-child intercourse. Obviously good contraception cuts the chance way down but doesn’t eliminate it. Which brings up thee issue of abortion as a last resort. I won’t get into that.
So I say, no.
Btw one of those reasons goes away between father and son or mother and daughter. Just thought I’d point that out.



report abuse
 

kenneth

posted December 15, 2010 at 11:02 pm


The Christian right loves to throw this out as the inevitable destination at the bottom of the slippery slope of gay marriage. That and marrying a horse etc. Adult incest just isn’t one of those problems that merits a legal solution. There aren’t that many people at all interested in it. Those few who are have been around since time began and will not be deterred by laws. I just don’t see any public interest served by imprisoning them. If the relationship began when one party was underage and that comes to light, that, of course is a different matter.



report abuse
 

Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted December 17, 2010 at 9:31 am


Sometimes, you gotta run into the ground things that are no longer worth being fixed in favor of the new.
This is the case with this world, or nearly so.
God, through Christ, said that all this would happen before He comes back. The sooner, the better. The Godless don’t realize the part they play in this prophecy and how they advance it. Thanks for the help.



report abuse
 

kenneth

posted December 17, 2010 at 11:28 am


If incest was the harbinger of Christ’s return, he’s long overdue. It’s been going on steadily among the ruling classes since before he was born.



report abuse
 

Julia

posted December 17, 2010 at 8:09 pm


Even if one chooses to disregard religious teachings on forbidden behavior, taboos exist due to negative biological reprocussions of engaging in the behaviors and/or are in place for the benefit of individuals and the societies in which they exist. They result from the observation of consequences of behaviors in societies over time – they have history. The incest question was answered by human beings thousands of years ago. I don’t believe that a truly intelligent adult would question the necessity for incest taboos. Unless, of course, they have a personal agenda. Galluzzo’s argument is an insult to our intelligence. ABC’s effort to pose the question is a shamless and pitiful attempt to conjer up readership motivated by desire for profit with total disregard for the role morality plays in successful societies. ABC has aired plenty of criticism of the “religous right.” Are their ideas really more threatening than legalizing incest? I hope and pray for public outrage at this attempt to mollify the consequences of incest.



report abuse
 

kenneth

posted December 17, 2010 at 10:44 pm


The biological/genetic implications of incest are widely misunderstood and exaggerated. A single pairing between family members increases the likelyhood of inherited disease/defect somewhat, but then so does having children later in life, which is almost standard these days. Generations of narrow inbreeding will, of course, lead to more substantial issues. I have trouble with the idea of making it a matter for criminal law based on this legitimate, if overstated, public health concern.
I say that because we don’t use criminal law to police the health of the gene pool in any other respect. We don’t lock up carriers of the cystic fibrosis for having children, even though such a pairing creates a 1 in 4 chance of the life-shortening illness per pregnancy. We don’t forbid people with Huntington’s disease from having kids even though their offspring have a 50% chance! of developing what is a horrible and incurable deadly disease. Most people involved in incest also go to considerable lengths to avoid having children because of the social opprobrium surrounding it and because it would call attention to their situation.
To the extent incest does involve minors, it’s a matter of child abuse and should be prosecuted vigorously. In its aspect between consenting adults, I just don’t see it as a pressing legal issue, now or in the future. It’s just not something most people would ever consider because the social conditioning among family members tends to lead most people well away from romantic interest in each other. There’s just no pressing public safety dimension to it.
The tiny minority of people involved in it usually fly well below radar. The illegality certainly doesn’t deter those folks, and if anything, adds to their enjoyment of flouting a taboo. I don’t see a lot of law enforcement people forming task forces to root them out. A change in legal status isn’t going to prompt waves of brothers and sister or moms and sons to run to the courthouse for a marriage license. I don’t think it’s very useful to think of a linkage between “legalizing” incest and removing a social taboo. The taboo is the result of most people not wanting the emotional chaos that would come from incest. It really doesn’t need cops and prosecutors or finger-wagging conservatives to uphold. Locking up those few who do take that odd route makes none of us safer. What it DOES do is give even more latitude to a government which already feels entitled to lock people up virtually at whim. A government which is allowed to haul your neighbor away arbitrarily based on subjective moral belief will be perfectly happy to come for you when your lifestyle falls afoul of public sentiment.



report abuse
 

Joan Ball

posted December 18, 2010 at 2:35 am


kenneth: The relationship between legal, moral and socially taboo in this case and others is what I find interesting. Does legalizing something create less of a social stigma and shift the line on taboo? Does societal consensus on “moral” trump what can be argued by a skillful lawyer? Against what standard are these things decided in a heterogeneous culture? Much to ponder…



report abuse
 

kenneth

posted December 18, 2010 at 12:41 pm


I do have thoughts on that, but after multiple attempts to get it past the auto-censor, I’m giving up. This site flags hundreds of words that have nothing to do with obscenities, and it makes it next to impossible to have an adult conversation on any topic. As I mentioned to Gus on the pagan blog, I would urge you to consider moving to someplace like patheos or some other site. This one is far more trouble than it is worth, between this nonsense, the million ads and the links that are forever breaking down.



report abuse
 

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 19, 2010 at 4:48 pm


kenneth says:
If incest was the harbinger of Christ’s return, he’s long overdue.
Mr. Incredible asks:
According to whom?
kenneth says:
It’s been going on steadily among the ruling classes since before he was born.
Mr. Incredible says:
Reason, but not wisdom.



report abuse
 

Frank

posted December 20, 2010 at 12:10 pm


Mr. Incredible, although insanity is always an impressive indicator of fundamentalist faith, I wouldn’t consider it wisdom.



report abuse
 

Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name

posted December 21, 2010 at 2:08 pm


Frank says:
…insanity is always an impressive indicator of fundamentalist faith…
Mr. Incredible says:
Who says?
Frank says:
I wouldn’t consider it wisdom.
Mr. Incredible says:
YOU wouldn’t. So what?
Jesus was fundamentalist. I’m on the right and correct side.



report abuse
 

abambagibus

posted December 22, 2010 at 10:56 am


To KENNETH, of the December 18, 2010 12:41 PM comment:
I would like to thank you for your insight into the tacitly barbed wire of this liberally restricted site. I was once naïve enough to believe in its openness to reason within reason. But happily I have learned from this site nonetheless, which unwittingly has taught me that in all too many ways the pagans, whom the religiously righteous so coldly disdain, are warmly more human in the way of humaneness than they.



report abuse
 

pagansister

posted December 26, 2010 at 9:53 pm


Why would anyone (adult age) WANT to have sex with their mother or father??!!
Legally—if it is not rape or an under age child (as in child sexual abuse) with a parent—what is served by putting the parent in jail? Don’t like the idea, but—the “child” in this case was 24—the article said it was “consensual” if she hadn’t been willing, then it would have been rape.



report abuse
 

Antone

posted December 27, 2010 at 11:20 am


When we no longer follow “written” law (the Bible, Koran, Torah), then we do that which is right in our own eyes, all mores fail, and it becomes as the “days of Noah.” All that is old is new again, morally speaking, and we have begun the slippery slope to no rules, everyone can do whatever they want morally and anyone who disagrees is guilty of a “hate crime,” which in American and European culture means, those with a moral compass will soon be put in jail for what they think.
amazing how far we’ve come in such a short period of time.



report abuse
 

Hilary Chaney

posted December 27, 2010 at 5:15 pm


Joan, I hope you will read my most recent post on sin and forgiveness. http://graduatingfromgod.blogspot.com/



report abuse
 

Erika

posted January 1, 2011 at 10:39 am


“When we no longer follow ‘written’ law (the Bible, Koran, Torah), then we do that which is right in our own eyes, all mores fail, and it becomes as the ‘days of Noah.’”
The three Abrahamic faiths, though developed in ancient times, are comparatively new when you take into consideration the age of the pagan religions. Evidence of their existence goes back as far as we have written record, and, when you include the physical sites still remaining, very plausibly before that. These faiths had no designated holy books, and the exact cultural law codes varied between each one. Yet, they were rather civilized people in comparison to the way society functioned even after the Abrahimic religions were unfolding.
Long before the Greeks proposed the idea, the Norse and Celts were establishing a democratic society. Community meetings designated to vote on laws, punishment, and mediate disputes helped keep order within the community and allow the common man a voice. They Druidic societies valued education very highly, and for the children set to school, twenty years of learning was the norm; topics such as philosophy, astronomy, and the like. Their ultimate goals were to attain as much wisdom as possible; express your creativity in the ways that feel right to you; and find love – of nature, of beauty, of art, of creation, of another person, of life.
The Nordic people practiced a very similar form of democratic government (named the All-thing). They put strong emphasis on justice, generosity, moderation, responsibility, compassion, courage, community, loyalty, wisdom, individuality, honesty, hospitality, and relating traits. Though the viking people were common towards the end of Norse reign, they in no way represent the whole of the society. Christians have indeed killed just as much (The Crusades being only one example).
More so, if you believe that The Torah, The Bible or the Qur’an should be followed to the fullest extent, that we should not turn away from it, I ask that you read those texts again. To combat the existence of incest with these books is especially ironic, as:
. Sara was Abraham’s half sister. They married and had kids. Genesis 20:12-13
. Nachor, Abraham’s brother, married Melcha, his niece. Genesis 11:26-29
. Lot had sex with his daughters, and they bore his children. Genesis 19:31-36
. Amram, the father of Moses, married his father’s sister, Jochabed. Exodus 6:19-20
. Amnon raped his sister, Thomar. II Kings 13:1-2, II Kings 13:8-12, II Kings 13:14
Accepted forms of marriage included:
. Polygamous marriage: Esau – 3 wives; Jacob: – 2 wives; Gideon – many wives; Abijah – 14 wives; Ashur – 2 wives; Solomon – 700 wives (all of royal birth); David: – multiple wives; Rehaboam – 3 wives; Elkanah: – 2 wives.
. A man, a woman and her property — a female slave: Sara and Abraham were infertile and, in response, Sara gave her (female) slave, Hagar, to Abraham so he could have kids. There is nothing the Bible stating she consented.
. A male soldier and a female prisoner of war: The Israelite army killed every male adult Midianite in battle. MOSES then ordered the cold-blooded slaughter of all the male children. All that remained were female virgins, most of whom were taken in as prisoners. Numbers 31:1-18 It is later described that after given time to mourn the loss of their family and freedom, they would be forced to submit sexually to their captors – as wives. Deuteronomy 21:11-14
. A male rapist and his victim: A female who has been raped was forced to marry her attacker. Deuteronomy 22:28-29
And that is just the beginning. You could also bring up the maltreatment of women, especially under Paul’s word; the transfer of sin from generation to generation (Exodus 20:5), and so forth. If you make the argument that one part of The Bible is simply outdated, then the whole of it becomes invalid.
More so, who gets to make that judgment?
END NOTE: These are two consensual adults, according to the article. The government needs to stay out of the bedroom. If, as I suspect, she was abused all throughout her life, than this is an expression of the Stockholm Syndrome that many child abuse (including sexual abuse) victims display. If that is the case, he needs to be prosecuted for childhood molestation and rape.



report abuse
 

Ray

posted January 5, 2011 at 6:11 am


(Sex.)
The most fun that you can have with out laughing in or out of marriage.
The good lord blessed humanity with a life time of good healthy sex and decreed that what ever sex that man fails to use will be fed to the worms.



report abuse
 

Ray

posted January 5, 2011 at 6:12 am


(Sex.)
The most fun that you can have with out laughing in or out of marriage.
The good lord blessed humanity with a life time of good healthy sex and decreed that what ever sex that man fails to use will be fed to the worms.



report abuse
 

Maria

posted January 5, 2011 at 4:07 pm


Well, then at this rate, let’s make rape illegal. What right does the government have to come into the bedroom of rapists? Or what about beastiality? Just because people are willing to do things like have sex with their daughters and animals doesn’t mean that it is okay and right. People are willing to do stupid things. It’s human nature. It doesn’t mean they should be allowed to. Incest isn’t just morally wrong, it also presents HUGE health risks. Consanguity is a terrible risk if the person gets pregnant. Yes, incest is in the Bible, but medical science has proven that there is a risk. Some things are prohibited not to deny us our “rights” (but who in their mind would want to have sex with their own daughter???)but to protect us from our own stupidity.



report abuse
 

Teresa Clark

posted January 5, 2011 at 8:34 pm


In the end we all are judged on our own personal sins and in turn what we leave imprinted upon those closest to us while we are alive is our legacy. I pray that their sexual relationship was consensual because if it wasn’t, that man’s legacy will be sad and destructive. If he has sinned against God, he will find out soon enough



report abuse
 

Jerry

posted January 9, 2011 at 9:17 am


In the beginning God gave mankind a free will.So that of his own personal will could worship him IF he choose to. He gave us guide lines to follow to live a better and longer life. But because of that free will some did some didn’t. HE knew it would be that way. But for the ones who did their faith and beliefs cannot be taken away. For the ones who don’t there is a place in hell waiting for them. God set forth in the Bible who we can have sex with. Its mans debase mind that seeks to question Gods word on what is right and what is wrong. And here we the christians have gone so far away from Gods word that as a group WE do not even live the life we should in front of the world. So why does the world want what we are supposed to have when if you look at the life of many christans its NO DIFFERENT than theirs. In many case’s throught our country just change the music, throw a little sawdust on the floor, dress as usuall and you could be at half the bars in town. That is how far away from living the life GOD intended for us to live we have PROGRESSED. But, back to the question– Did the father having comitted sex between himself and his daughter—-YES. To even get to the point where it is even a question- points to the fact GOD said we would become so educated we are fools.



report abuse
 

Fred

posted January 9, 2011 at 3:28 pm


“Incest is a form of chronic traumatic stress that can lead to a host of initial and long-term effects. Like child sexual abuse in general, it poses a serious mental health risk for many victims.”
Read more: Incest, Information about Incest at above URL



report abuse
 

Cliff

posted January 10, 2011 at 10:13 am


Besides the natural and moral outrage that should have shut this conversation down immediately, there is an absolute huge difference between homosexuality and sodomy than incest. We are talking about the mental health of a child. One is not responsible for the upbringing of the other person in a homosexual or relationship that includes sodomy. One is responsible for the mental, physical, and emotional state of the child being raised. Legalizing incest may produce people that groom their child to be their “lovers” when they reach age of consent. Am I to believe this 24 year old mentioned in the article had not been victimized or traumatized at an earlier age? Was she raised in an environment that Dad made it okay to have sex with him? Children look to their parents for safety and security. What kind of nuturing is taking place that allows this to happen? Did the 24 year old wake up one morning, after years of being taught what is oonsidered normal moral standards, and decide incest is all of a sudden okay? I find that extremely difficult to believe, no matter how tolerant an environment one is raised in. I believe if you are a father and in an incestual relationship with your child, you have failed miserably as a parent. You have not taught them to interact socially in society, nor within a relationship. Some may call this judgemental… I call this just plain common sense. The mere defense of this relationship tells me the lawyer representing this guy is more interested in money and/or publicity that will eventually produce him money. Notice, I said produce him money and not earn it. I would hope this kind of law suit would ruin the attorney’s reputation verses enhancing it.
As I stated,an absolute big difference between homosexuality, sodomy and the relationship between a parent and a child. If one can not see the difference in that, they have blinders on. SHAME on you MR. MATTHEW GALLUZO and to you MR. DAVID EPSTEIN. Attempting to save your hide for your unscrupulous behavior by concluding that you didn’t know this was wrong is an outrage, and now that you were caught and brought out into the public eye, you have the audacity to say you don’t think it is wrong. You have just admitted you not only have no remorse for what you did, but you are now encouraging others to behave in a similar manner. I pray they double your sentence for your lack of morals and lack of remorse. I guess some people will never get it, and I am hoping that the judge that convicts you, and yes, no matter how you spin it, will convict you, will also do everything he can to make sure your victimized daughter gets the help and therapy she needs to remain productive in society. I pray for her.



report abuse
 

Emily

posted January 10, 2011 at 1:58 pm


If anyone is providing religious texts as reason to keep incest illegal, you are missing the point. If God exists, people who engage in incestual relationships will have to face the consequences when they meet their creator, the existence of a law will not stop people who want to engage in this kind of behavior. I have to agree with Kenneth here. I don’t really see how a law would stop people from having incestuous relationships…nor do I really think its the government’s place to decide who is or is not allowed to sleep with whom. I mean honestly, a law against incest seems more symbolic than anything. Are the sex police going to wait outside of people’s bedrooms looking for misdeeds? It is one thing when sex isn’t consensual or involves a child…but for two consenting adults? Seems a little bit useless to me.



report abuse
 

albert p johnson

posted January 11, 2011 at 12:35 pm


i feel that in no way should incest be a part of life wheter,one is of consenting age or if the person is a juvenile. the bible clearly speaks of men sleeping with their mother’s brother’s wives, and other family members. basically, this is lude and lacvious behaviour. we are going into the cesspool. how can we expect god’s blessing with the things that are taking place here in america.



report abuse
 

gadfire

posted January 13, 2011 at 1:31 pm


How did the human race start?I believe it started with incest.if you believe the world originated from two people..and thus the only people in the world were all related.yet thius is beside the point regarding this matter.
I see a time coming when all will be legal.marrying dogs.etc.
We have come a long way down the wrong path.
yet we still go down it and will probably continue it.
once the snow ball is rolling it just gets bigger.



report abuse
 

Webminotaur

posted January 14, 2011 at 2:54 pm


I agree with Emily (January 10, 2011 1:58 PM)that any law will not stop people from doing something. The whole purpose of a law is to identify what behavior is not acceptable. If you do not agree with this analysis, go back and read Paul’s writings – especially Hebrews.
I also agree with the argument presented by Galluzzo: if one previously unacceptable behavior is now acceptable, why not another? What is the difference between the two no-noes? Of course, this brings up another question – where does society draw the line? Sexual relations between a man and a woman are only natural human instincts. Sexual relations between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, are not natural instincts. If society wants to make distinctions, then it should follow what is natural. The argument for homosexuals is that they are just displaying an alternate life-style. But can’t that also be said for murderers, rapists, child molesters, thieves, and others? Aren’t they also displaying an “alternate life-style?” What makes one course of action “acceptable” and another “taboo?” I’m speaking here only of man-made laws, not God’s standards of conduct.
I find it strange that so-called Christians are outraged because a parent was caught having sexual relations with a grown child, yet accept homosexuals as ordained ministers. The New Testament does not contain any prohibition about incest (except in the case of a young man marrying his father’s wife), but has many statements about homosexuals (both male and female) not being accepted into God’s kingdom. Man’s standards, even those of the “church,” may be flexible, but God’s standards remain firm. The Bible makes it clear that God treats each of his standards as equal. To violate one is the same as violating another (or actually all of them). God will not be mocked.
To answer Jason’s question: “Does this mean that legal arguments do/should always trump morality?” The answer is that such argument “should not” trump morality, but as corrupt as man is, they usually “do.” After all, such action is what prompted this blog.



report abuse
 

Webminotaur

posted January 14, 2011 at 2:55 pm


My appologies, Joan. This is your blog, not Jason’s.



report abuse
 

Your Name

posted February 7, 2011 at 11:21 pm


I mostly agree with Cliff (1/10) in his analysis of the subject. In order for a parent/child incestuous relationship to occur in the first place, there must have been some abuse in the relationship when the child was growing up. This is where the law has jurisdiction to intervene.
As for the consentual sexual relationship, I don’t believe it will serve any useful purpose for the legal system to get involved and will ultimately cost taxpayers money which could be used for more productive purposes. However, if the authorities wanted to use my tax money to root out the abusive history of the relationship and prosecute based on that I would be supportive.
As a rule, the police and courts should have no jurisdiction over what consenting ADULTS choose to do in their bedroom. It is not possible to police what people do in their bedroom and legislating bedroom conduct is a waste of time and tax money.



report abuse
 

Grumpy Old Person

posted February 15, 2011 at 11:54 am


@ Webminotaur,
“Sexual relations between a man and a woman are only natural human instincts.
Only if the man and the woman are heterosexual.
“Sexual relations between a man and a man, or a woman and a woman, are not natural instincts.”
They absolutley are natural – for homosexuals.
“The argument for homosexuals is that they are just displaying an alternate life-style.”
No one makes that “argument” except for delusional religionists. Gay people have lives, not this ficticious “lifestyle”.
“But can’t that also be said for murderers, rapists, child molesters, thieves, and others?”
All of your examples cause harm. Consenting, adult, human relationships do not.
DO BETTER!
And stop bearing false witness about God’s gay and lesbian children.
It’s a seeyun.



report abuse
 

reXteryalizer

posted March 3, 2011 at 10:55 pm


I believe that we are beYond legalizing INCEST ..
From a BIBLICAL & HISTORICAL perspective…..
Homosexuality was Outlawed just 100 yrs ago in the country..
The bible teaches that this is a perverted act ..that caused sickness, death and distruction.
THE PHRAZE ~~ their blood shall be upon them, was applied, to say that their act was harming their BLOOD LINE…..
Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
While Incest is IN THE SAME EXACT catagory
Deu 27:20 Cursed be he that lieth with his father’s wife;
Deu 27:21 Cursed be he that lieth with any manner of beast.
Deu 27:22 Cursed be he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his father, or the daughter of his mother.
.in the begening you will FIND .
God Gave Eve & Adam Eternal life, Adam & eve Lived to be 900 yrs
old…. Remember ….
This was the lifespan & health of Mankind….
What happened ?
Man began to break more of Gods conmandments, distroying his health.
Not keeeping clean., eating nasty filthy animals,, sodomy., beastality ,
adultery ., whoredom & fornication. INCEST ect…..
These things cause diseases & germs that have OVER time distroyed
man.. Spreading their diseases & ill health distroYing the long life that
we had in the begening ,.
Thus man is lucky TODAY to make it to live to 60 yrs old
Compaired to 900 yrs old
He has been distroying his health BY not following the biblical
comandments… from the begening.
PolygamY as discribed in the bible….allows women to have husbands..
No prostitution, no fornication, that was how man has distroyed
himself…..
Thats Y the sin was punishable by death.
Now its not a matter of ….anything You can do to keep life
preserved…Man is at the end of his road……
We have the aids virus, syphilis hepatitis Gonorrhea and many many
more diseases spread from sex.
Man can no longer live to be 900……..Jesus has come & established a
fulfilment of the law….IN him we can Have eternal life…
It dont do any good to kill man kind in wholescale floods, whole citues
wiped out….
Animals, & all the people all the plants burned & cleansed AS GOD has
the JEWS to do….to protect mankind
It dont do any good to kill people & animals for beastality……..or
sodomites Man is not gonna live / function past 100 yrs old .
Its not the point of the OLD LAW…Just to kill bec they broke a law..
The law was to protect..



report abuse
 

shaun

posted March 14, 2011 at 3:28 am


Thanks for the article, I would like to hear more about this story, it seems terrible to think that our morales have gone out the window!!



report abuse
 

scrapiron

posted April 11, 2011 at 6:51 am


Food for thought. Joesph and Mary the parents of Yeshua(Jesus) were related, they were “first cousins”!! Incest is scatter thoughout the Bible,Study it before you argue it…Why isn’t Adultery against the law it destroys many families than anything else…Just sayin..I mean Sex is just sex.. But Adultery destroys People, Family and Friends..



report abuse
 

Eric

posted April 11, 2011 at 6:55 am


It is Written in the Word; Incet is a Crime against God! For reasons of Health, and for Humanity, it should not be practiced EVER. Psychologically there are SO many forces at play between parent and child-there is just no :right” to it!



report abuse
 

Debra

posted April 11, 2011 at 7:10 am


This whole idea is SICK. How can a parent and child look at one another in that way, even as adults? If they do, they’re not mentally stable.



report abuse
 

John

posted April 11, 2011 at 8:13 am


Wow — I am honestly surprized that something like this is put out for discussion. The statements made by the lawyer – including those justifying insest through homosexuality are baseless, scratching for perhaps one international legal precedent on which to hold.

Do this.

Find some of your friends that have been the subjects of incest. There are more folks than you think – get their reactions – all that I have ever encountered:

- don’t want to talk about it
- hate the parent (father) for perpetrating it
- have other psychological problems stemming from the experience

I think their experiences speak for themselves. This is a predatory crime against those who trust an adult most – their own children…or those close to them.



report abuse
 

Norton R. Nowlin

posted April 11, 2011 at 8:15 am


When this issue of incest is examined in accordance with the doctrines established by Jesus Christ for all time, the writings of the Apostle, Romans 1:26-32, reveal that leaving the unnatural use of the woman, the human man can commit all types of abominations, which, no doubt, include incest, homosexuality, beastiality, etc. Just because Lot’s daughters got Lot drunk and fornicatd with him, and recorded in Genesis, didn’t make it okay in the sight God.

I firmly believe that Sodom and Gomorrah didn’t become dreadfully sinful overnight. It took a long time for these two large cities to become as wicked as they were when God destroyed them. Houston, San Francisco, Paris, New York City, and Las Vegas might be compared to Sodom and Gomorrah. They are not there yet, but it won’t be long until fire and brimstone might rain down from heaven on them. Perhaps incest was an accepted practice in Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as homosexuality and, probably, beastiality. The worse is yet to come before the Savior Jesus Christ comes again to the earth in vengeance. So incest just might become popular and legalized. But God forbid!



report abuse
 

Norton R. Nowlin

posted April 11, 2011 at 8:19 am


Please let me correct my previous comment. The Apostle Paul said, in Romans 1:27-32, that leaving the “natural” use of the woman” will cause men to commit unnatural abominations. Excuse my typos.



report abuse
 

John

posted April 11, 2011 at 8:30 am


Remember Exekiel 16:49

49 “‘Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. 50 They were haughty and did detestable things before me. Therefore I did away with them as you have seen.

God’s own words on why he punished Sodom — in plain terms, because the people slept around with seemingly anyone anywhere, and because of their arrogance.

Strangely, homosexuality does not make Ezekiel’s list by direct mention.



report abuse
 

SPH

posted April 11, 2011 at 10:15 am


Incest should not be permitted, between realitives period, and especially Father and daughter, nor Mother and son. For that matter anyone that has the same blood line running through their veins shouldn’t be permitted to partake in any type of sexual involvement.



report abuse
 

Sarah

posted April 11, 2011 at 10:37 am


Incest is just unnatural to me. I always thought you were supposed to leave your family unit to find a mate. It just seems like it would be too complicated, and that you may run the risk of some pretty hefty genetic problems in the offspring if the parents are genetically too close of a match.

I never did understand the link between bestiality and incest to homosexuality. Nowhere near the same mental process.
Animals can not consent to mating with a human. And if child molestation is wrong, I don’t care if the “child” is twenty-something years old. The relationship as parent/child still stands. Ew.



report abuse
 

cyndy

posted April 11, 2011 at 11:09 am


People who want to have sex with their dogs and/or their family members is (hopefully) very rare so I doubt our society is going in that direction!! Seems like it was used to sensationalize this article.

I am a gay woman and I asked someone, what are we suppose to do? Disappear? Not have a life? A partner?

He said “Just stop!” I had to laugh, it is so ridiculous. I asked him if he could have a homosexual relationship, he said NO. The same with us…our bodies could but our hearts would not be in it.

It is just that simple.



report abuse
 

g

posted April 11, 2011 at 11:15 am


Father and daughter??? EEEEWWWWWWWW!!!!!

Just reading this article makes me want to wash my eyes out with bleach.

EEEEEWWWWW!!!

And I think most of the world would say EWWWWW….this is a non-issue. Ain’t going anywhere.



report abuse
 

Ronald

posted April 11, 2011 at 11:59 am


Well, What else is out there? As lond as the world becomes older and older, more and more things will start to re-surface from the bottom. I wont be surprise because i know that something more stronger than this will soon be exposed. Best thing to do is to prepare for the unexpected…And then the end will come.



report abuse
 

MZ AMERICA 1

posted April 11, 2011 at 1:04 pm


i noted the word consented was used in several of the above comments and the article above…really?????? consented ….. trained is more in line with this act…. b/c i bet anyone on here a 100 dollars that he has been whoring his daughter for years before she could consent or refuse….. this act is sick …and it’s time to stand for something or fall for anything……. this is sick and we need stronger laws in this country for these criminals…pedophiles, rapist, and child molesters have had it too good in the good ole U .S OF .A. …it is time to send the message that this sickness will no longer be tolerated… STOP PUTTING THE VICTIMS ON TRAIL…. AND START PROSECUTING THESE NASTY DOGS…. NO THEY CANT GET JOBS WHERE OUR KIDS FREQUENT ,….AND NO THEY CAN’T LIVE IN OUR NEIGHBORHOODS… REGISTERED OR NOT…. AND STOP THROWING THE BOOK AT THESE TEENAGERS SENDING THEY NAKED BEHINDS TO THEIR BOY/GIRL FRIENDS AND GET TO PROSECUTING THESE MESSED UP SICK DOG GROWN UP”S RAPING BABIES



report abuse
 

jackie

posted April 11, 2011 at 1:42 pm


In the law of Moses incest was considered a wicked thing read Leviticus 20:11-23,and 1st Corinthians 5:1-5 God will punish those who are committing acts of incest,just like anything else that is not his law even non believers do not agree with this kind of immorality.
JESUS is the way the TRUTH and the Light.



report abuse
 

Rick

posted April 11, 2011 at 3:20 pm


This is one of those issues I had to take to Father. He gave me the same answer He gave when I took the abortion and the gay marriage problems to Him. It is not a matter of law but a matter of the heart. Where does your heart stand? Does it stand with Father or does it stand with evil. It is not our place to judge lest we be judged. Love is where you find it as so it is with justice.



report abuse
 

Jim

posted April 11, 2011 at 3:54 pm


The idea this topic is even being brought up is truly heartbreaking to see the level of depravity we have sunk.
What is further troubling is in the early responses from non-believers to the sheer lack of understanding with the perversity of it.
The disdain of pagans toward Christians as somehow foisting our beliefs on society shows how close we are to the return of Christ.
2 Timothy 3
But mark this: There will be terrible times in the last days. People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, proud, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, treacherous, rash, conceited, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people.
They are the kind who worm their way into homes and gain control over gullible women, who are loaded down with sins and are swayed by all kinds of evil desires, always learning but never able to come to a knowledge of the truth.”
1 Corinthians 3:19 “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight” and
Ezekiel 5:21 “Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes And clever in their own sight”
An incestuous dalliance between a parent and child will always be an abuse of the trust a child should have that a parent must never breach.
This is not a matter of “what goes on behind closed doors” or a “slippery slope”. This is a matter of right and wrong.
THIS IS WRONG!
Satan is very much roaming about like a lion and he is devouring more people than we could ever imagine and I fear the wrath of God we read about being poured out will something even more unimaginable.
Christ told us to expect these things to happen. We should not sit here and wring our hands. Rather we need to be in prayer more, love more, and ask for the Holy Spirit to pour out His power into our lives to win those who will listen to Christ.
John 4:35b “…Look! I tell you, raise your eyes and observe the fields and see how they are already white for harvesting.”
Father forgive us.



report abuse
 

Valerie Reid

posted April 11, 2011 at 4:07 pm


If the bible says it is wrong, forget other people’s opinion. Then God is saying it is wrong. Need I quote. A man shall not lay with his mother, father, or any other relative or animal (my own words). It is right in scripture. Why do people try to come up with what is right or wrong; when God has already clarified what is right or wrong. We don’t need to justify anything IT IS WRITTEN.



report abuse
 

seacrest

posted April 11, 2011 at 5:36 pm


Lawlessness is a sign of the end of the age.
People may think there are no consequences for
their dark sexual activity but God will reveal
the truth to all mankind.



report abuse
 

olddad

posted April 11, 2011 at 5:37 pm


Nonsense. Whoever wrote this garbage is just doing what they can to demonize Gay people. It has nothing to do with anything else. The republicans are the ones that would force a child raped by her father to have the child.Quit being cowardly and say what you really mean. It is garbage like this that will prevent me from EVER being a Christian.



report abuse
 

Denise

posted April 11, 2011 at 5:44 pm


This is a sticky subject for many reasons. People do seem to confuse moral law, civil law, and criminal law. We all know that incest is wrong. That is not called into question. The question is should we make it criminal? That is not so easy to answer. The line that we “can’t legislate morality” is nonsense. In a very real sense, all law is legislating morality. The question is where do we draw the line and let God take over? We can’t imprison everyone who violates moral law– that would leave nobody on the outside.

I don’t believe that it is to our benefit to interfere in a relationship that is truly consensual and between two adults. The problem here is with the truly consensual part. We cannot ignore the fact that parents have a lot of influence over their children, even as adults. If the parent raised the child to be obedient (and parents should!) then the now-adult child will have a hard time saying no.

I do believe that forbidding marriage between closely related individuals is to our benefit. This is a different issue, though related.

The question is far from easy to answer. Criminal law is intended to maintain order in society and to preserve the rights of individuals. We need to ask: Does this law do that? Should it be eliminated? Should it be replaced by something more appropriate? Is it truly a burden on us to enforce it? There are no easy answers in this one.



report abuse
 

SP/5 D.C.PHILLIPS

posted April 11, 2011 at 5:58 pm


“NOOOO problem here,as there has been A N D always will be(in these ‘LAST DAYS’, ‘PLENTY OF ROOM IN HELL!!!!!!’ You know, for the incest criminals(caught by man or not),gays (and yes,also same for Bi’s),animal “lovers”,etc.,there is ALWAYS, plenty of room, for ALLL of you, along with the other bad boys/girls,that think/believe, that all’s well that ends well = guess what,geniuses,’Your end has arrived, and for those that continue their activies…GUESS WHAT????’”



report abuse
 

Riovesil

posted April 11, 2011 at 8:22 pm


God created us perfect according to His will. But man chose to believe Satan instead. Ever since, man thinks he knows it all. But the fact is the more “knowledgeable” he becomes the more foolish are his ways.



report abuse
 

Arylos

posted April 11, 2011 at 11:57 pm


Leviticus 18:22
For a man to lie with a man as if that man were a woman is a Very Very Sick ABOMINATION unto GOD.
Read the scripture.
Incest is also an abomination unto GOD.
Demonizing gay people is not the issue. the issue is what is Written.



report abuse
 

David

posted April 12, 2011 at 1:26 am


I am shocked by what I am reading here!

All you need is two ‘consenting’ adults??? Is there any moral off limits to the immoral? I suppose I just answered my own question. How did this guy gain this “oonsent”? He could have been having sex with her way before she turned 18.

This conversation proves that society is ready to throw off every restraint imaginable with unimaginable consequences. The Bible talks about how sin will be rampant in the last days, just as in the ‘days of Noah’. We know how that turned out.

Wake up people. JESUS IS COMING!!! Like it or not, whether you think it’s just or not is immaterial. He is the KING OF KINGS and LORD OF LORDS. God is real even if you don’t believe He is. I’ve met Him and He is REAL!

Your understanding doesn’t matter, your lifestyle doesn’t matter, your education or your money does not matter. You can live like there is no God and you had better be right!

For now, he offers unlimited forgiveness in the One that paid the price for your sins. The offer won’t last forever. Once the offer expires, ther will be hell to pay. Literally.



report abuse
 

scra[iron

posted April 12, 2011 at 4:03 am


There are a couple of issue’s I would like to address: 1.The dialog is great, people are talking and at times pointing figures. First of all these “sins” that are being discussed are not Condenmable unless there is no Conviction of whatever sin..if the person who is acting out this particular issue being discuss if convicted of these certain acts by the “Holy Spirit” then that person is convinced that it is wrong and then does not turn from Their wicked way then that person will be lost…2nd, These topic’s also are sins that are forgiveable and the Holy Spirit will do His work and but at the same time Christians need to pratice Love and Forgiveness and quit being Judges! And to say, ” Knowledge breeds Acceptance” is TRUE… The more we learn about something it becomes easier to accept..But I also believe that while we are dicussing these certin items lets not Bash anyone, because first of all we don’t know who is being called and I ask the person who is gay to accept my apology because I know I am not GOD..but trying to be just His son..Shalom and Amen



report abuse
 

cob

posted April 13, 2011 at 9:03 am


This was how the gay issue started….with teasers. Now it is acceptable in society. God help us.



report abuse
 

Mel

posted April 13, 2011 at 7:39 pm


I think it’s wrong for anyone to say that is OK! It’s not… And know this> people who are gay, is because they have been raped/molested by someone in their family…



report abuse
 

Lynn Bleyle

posted April 14, 2011 at 11:43 pm


There has to be a constant for morality. If it were not so, not only decency but law would become diluted more and more with passing years and generations. The oldest guidelines for successful living comes from one of the oldest books,the Bible. Incest was taboo. It has many reprecussions in the spiritual, physical, and mental realm. There are two spiritual realms whether you believe it or not . They are good and evil. Each has there own cause and effect ramifications. Think on any such case you’ve known where there has been good done and the results and bad and those results as well.Those negative or positive results from either good or evil that you don’t readily see will appear in this life or the next.



report abuse
 

Woody

posted April 16, 2011 at 11:46 am


Leagalize incest??? Are you serious?? This is insane!! You can’t use the argument about homosexuals, ’cause that is wrong, too. GOD told us all the things we cannot do, as far as sex is concerned. You DON’T have sex with any chidren, whether they are yours, or someone else’s. You DON’T have sex with the same sex as you. You DON’T have sex with animals. You DON’T have anal sex. You DON’T have sex with cousins. The list goes on and on. Doing these things are abnormal. People always try to justify their perversions by claiming “love” is involved. It’s not love, it’s lust.



report abuse
 

JosieBear1951

posted April 16, 2011 at 3:45 pm


Kenneth: blow it out your bum !
Pro 10:19 In the multitude of words there wanteth not sin: but he that refraineth his lips is wise.
Erika: don’t ever confuse the Bible(Torah) with the Quran (sp?)
Mr. Incredible: don’t waste your time, breath, or pearls with someone like Kenneth.



report abuse
 

tatayoung

posted November 10, 2011 at 9:32 am


HI All

I would like to make it simple.
1. If the world agrees for gay marriages, then Incest should also be allowed between 2 adults.
2. If an underage child is forced in to incest, he/she should be severely punished.
3. In Islam, for example, My son can marry my own brother’s daughter.If this allowed, I think Incest should also be allowed.
4. In India (Hinduism) especially south india, I can marry my elder sister’s daughter. This has been going on from ages..atleast for the past 200yrs.very common in south india.
5. Just because in bible or any other religious book its mentioned that incest is sin, we follow it.Had it been written in reverse that only family members or blood relations should marry each other or have sex with each other..I think the world would have followed it blindly as we are doing now.

I am not saying that Incest is very much correct, but if its mutual between 2 adults, they should be allowed and should not be considered taboo.

Finally, As said in bible, how do you think the world’s population grew just with adam and eve, when they were the first born on earth ??? just think…??



report abuse
 

Post a Comment

By submitting these comments, I agree to the beliefnet.com terms of service, rules of conduct and privacy policy (the "agreements"). I understand and agree that any content I post is licensed to beliefnet.com and may be used by beliefnet.com in accordance with the agreements.



Previous Posts

Does the Protestant Work Ethic Hold Up in the 21st Century
This was originally posted last year, but it's on my mind again today... Reading a "secular" textbook this morning about the roots of Americans' tendency to define themselves by the work they do and came across this: "Calvin's doctrine of predestination led his followers [to view] success in wor

posted 2:48:59pm Feb. 13, 2012 | read full post »

Does the Protestant Work Ethic Hold Up in the 21st Century?
This was originally posted last year, but it's on my mind again today... Reading a "secular" textbook this morning about the roots of Americans' tendency to define themselves by the work they do and came across this: "Calvin's doctrine of predestination led his followers [to view] success in wor

posted 12:57:29pm May. 25, 2011 | read full post »

Holy Saturday: Thoughts on Sacrifice
Woke this morning thinking about sacrifice and how infrequently most of us, myself included, actually sacrifice anything of true value to ourselves for God and others. Sure we give money to our favorite charities. But when is the last time we actually parted with money that would have gone to paying

posted 9:50:42am Apr. 23, 2011 | read full post »

Maundy Thursday: Inspirational Holy Week Stories for an Extraordinary Season...
Wondering about the meaning of Holy Week and Easter? A new friend and talented author, pastor, artist Dr. David McDonald, has created a helpful site called The Common Truth: Ordinary Stories for an Extraordinary Season that offers thought-provoking daily reflections and inspirational Easter season

posted 9:51:07am Apr. 21, 2011 | read full post »

An Ordinary Holy Week Primer for an Extraordinary Season...
Wondering about the meaning of Holy Week and Easter? A new friend and talented author, pastor, artist Dr. David McDonald, has created a helpful site called The Common Truth: Ordinary Stories for an Extraordinary Season that offers thought-provoking daily reflections on Palm Sunday, Fig Monday, Grea

posted 12:27:39am Apr. 19, 2011 | read full post »




Report as Inappropriate

You are reporting this content because it violates the Terms of Service.

All reported content is logged for investigation.