The Deacon's Bench

The Deacon's Bench


“Oh Mary, Christ, God, please protect us”

posted by jmcgee

capt.photo_1288596055236-1-0.jpgThose were the desperate prayers of the Iraqis held hostage during mass on Sunday — a crisis that ended in a bloodbath:

Around 5:20 p.m., as the Christian worshipers stood and recited “Upon this rock I will build my church,” the gunfire started on the street outside.

Father Thar advised everyone to stay seated and to keep praying, but Madeline Mikhal and others rushed from their pews.

Suddenly a large explosion rocked Our Lady of Salvation Church in Baghdad. Bullets whistled by. Some worshipers ran to the church basement. Mikhal darted into the priests’ changing room. A barrage of bullets thundered in the main hall.

Many parishioners dived beneath the pews seeking cover. But the dozen or so gunmen, some wearing vests covered with explosives and carrying grenades and other weapons, took aim at the scrambling congregation.

“Those who couldn’t find a place to hide were killed,” Mikhal said.

She was among more than 70 people who pressed together in the priests’ dressing room. The group blocked the door with a dresser, and knocked out the fluorescent lights and waited in the dark. One of the priests, Father Rafael, had taken shelter with them. Mikhal spotted Baan Selim, a relative through marriage.

“Oh Mary, Christ, God, please protect us,” they whispered and sobbed.

The attack came during a Sunday evening Mass celebrating the church’s founding. And even in a place where a sectarian war has killed hundreds in car bombings, executions and mass kidnappings, the seizure of the Syrian Catholic Church, with 120 worshipers inside, ranked among the worst acts in the country’s recent history.

Read the rest.



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Mary

posted November 2, 2010 at 12:07 am


Eternal memory. Give rest, O Lord, to the souls of Thy servants who have fallen asleep
“According to Church sources in Iraq, three young priests who had been leading the service were killed during the attack. They were Fr Wasim Sabieh, Fr Thaier Saad Abdal and Fr Qatin. Fr Qatin was wounded during the raid and died later in hospital.” http://tinyurl.com/374y9nm
From Joan Lewis’ blog http://www.ewtn.com/news/blog.asp?blogposts_ID=1081&blog_ID=1
“If you wish to express your condolences and remembrance in prayers to Bishops Bashar Warda and Amel Nona – who can convey them to the Church in Baghdad – please write me at the address below. I will create a Word document from those letters and see that the two bishops receive it. Heartfelt thanks in advance!”
….Write to Joan at joansrome@ewtn.com



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Mr. Incredible, in Jesus' Name, the ONLY Name by which we must be saved!

posted November 2, 2010 at 6:25 am


At the wedding, where Jesus performed His first miracle, Jesus told His mother, Mary, that she has nothing to do with this. [John 2:4]
The Word of God says that there is only one Mediator between God and Man. That Mediator is Christ. [1 Timothy 2:5] It is not Mary.

JESUS IS LORD ! THE LORD IS MY SHEPHERD OVER THE HILLS AND THROUGH THE VALLEYS, TROUNCING GIANTS !



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Michael

posted November 2, 2010 at 7:42 am


For some reason, this story–among the many horrific things that happen in this sad and broken world–is really weighing on me. Does anyone know how we can contact this church directly? I want to send them my prayers, and some prayer cards, or something.
Michael



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Goodguyex

posted November 2, 2010 at 9:04 am


This is off topic:
Mr Incredible writes “At the wedding, where Jesus performed His first miracle, Jesus told His mother, Mary, that she has nothing to do with this. [John 2:4]”
No, that is not what is written. It is like this- Mary tells Jesus the wedding party is out of wine. Jesus then tells Mary “Woman what does that have to do with ME”? Mary then turns to waiter and tell him, “Do whatever He (Jesus) tells you to do”. Mary goaded Jesus into action. Jesus then performs His first miracle.
Mary launched Jesus on his ministry. She knew WHO HE was and WHAT HE was and WHY HE was there.



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B

posted November 2, 2010 at 12:13 pm


Michael, I’m with you. It is really breaking my heart. Does anyone know a prayer for persecuted Christians?



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Texas Deacon

posted November 2, 2010 at 9:27 pm


This is really sad. Iraq was always tenuous as a nation. At least under the Baathist (sp) there was religious tolerance. I believe that all the Jews have left, the Christians are persecuted and generally the country is in disarray.
May God have mercy on them all.



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Camille

posted November 2, 2010 at 10:33 pm


Saint Michael the Archangel,
defend us in battle.
Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil.
May God rebuke him, we humbly pray;
and do Thou, O Prince of the Heavenly Host –
by the Divine Power of God –
cast into hell, satan and all the evil spirits,
who roam throughout the world seeking the ruin of souls.
Amen.



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Nancy

posted November 3, 2010 at 7:27 am


No one “goads” God, who is Christ in the flesh into anything. Mary is just another sinner. Praying to her, will not do anyone any good. She is just one of many barriers to having a personal relationship with Christ. You shouldn’t insult God with such nonsense.
When Christ stayed at the temple and was preaching to the priests. Mary had no clue on where Christ was. Luke 2:48-50
[48] And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
[49] And he said unto them, How is it that ye sought me? wist ye not that I must be about my Father’s business?
[50] And they understood not the saying which he spake unto them.
Yes, Mary had no clue on where Christ was and what He was doing. Mary is not a diety. Mary lacks omnipotent, omnipresence or omniscient. To even suggest Mary has this, diminshes Christ since HE is the only one in the flesh that possess this – not Mary.
As for WHO to pray TO, Christ is the ONLY one mediator:
1 Timothy 2:5[5]
For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus
There is only ONE intercessor, according to God:
Rom.8:26
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Mary is NOT a mediator or an intercessor; unless you want to call God a LIAR. I don’t because God cannot lie. It is MAN that LIES.
Tit.1:2
[2] In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie,
Put the barriers away. Have a personal and direct relationship with Christ. The “Queen of Heaven” is a pagan idea from the Old Testament – READ Jermiah 7 and Jermiah 44. Mary is just an old distraction from Satan to prevent you from going to heaven. Join other Christians in heaven when it is your time!



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Taro

posted November 3, 2010 at 8:52 am


Nancy –
I know your heart is in the right place, but you are trying to teach the Holy Bible to the people who gave you the Holy Bible. I am sorry about your reading trouble. Nobody here claims that Mary is a diety or omnipotent. For you to claim otherwise is the sin of false witness. More to the point, since no one is claiming that Mary is a diety, it is no surprise that it took her three of four days to locate her son in an age when there were no cell phones. This says nothing about Mary’s position as an intercessonary. But even if you weren’t presenting an obvious straw-man argument, your points are easily dismissed.
Let’s assume sola scriptura just to give you the home court advantage. Under your rules, Timothy must be taken literally. When he says, “For there is one God, and ONE mediator between God and men,
the man Christ Jesus,” don’t you find it troubling that Timothy asserts Jesus to be merely a man? Why didn’t he describe Jesus as the “Son of God” or some other form indicating his divinity? Doesn’t Timothy’s description conflict with Jesus’ own claim to be the Son of God?
Gee, this sola scriptura and literal intepretation position of you protestants really creates some problems, but I’ve got a solution for you, Nancy. If you continue reading Timothy and following it literally, we come to a solution to our problem:
1 Timothy 2:11-12 “A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.”
Well, THAT seems pretty clear, doesn’t it?
P.S. I’m pretty sure Mary goaded Jesus to eat his veggies, pick up his toys, and to keep his dusty feet off her clean floor. He was, after all, at one time a little kid like any other – full of wonder at the world around him and in need of correction from time to time. Didn’t your mother goad you? Why would you expect the Christ-child to have a different experience?



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Moktor

posted November 3, 2010 at 9:31 am


@Taro, sin-free is sin-free. Jesus fit the bill, Mary did not. Why would I expect the Christ-child to have a different experience? Probably because He is God. I know, small difference. While I could debate the finer points of submission and gender roles, Marian worship, and taking Scripture out of context to proof-text (let alone consideration of what makes for a literal interpretation) I would rather not get too far off topic, as I would hope that RCC’s and Protestants both can see the tragedy here above the theological issues.
@Nancy- Yes, you are correct, praying to Mary is not particularly useful, I would hope that you would later consider the article, however, and realize that this may not be the best time to get into a theological debate. Many people died; were martyred for Christ, even. Noting issues like this is probably not the most important consideration at this time!



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JosephW

posted November 3, 2010 at 9:33 am


We all should respect the Mother of God. She was good enough for Jesus so she should be good enough for us. The Word made flesh would not have come through sin so I don’t see how Mary would be sinful.
We all should pray for those people that were killed, including asking our Mother to intercede on their behalf.



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William

posted November 3, 2010 at 9:56 am


@ Moktor,
I greatly appreciate your comments about the appropriateness of these comments at this particular time. Our prayers and even our tears are with the victims and their families. The entire community will suffer so much. We pray that the blood of these martyrs will give rise to a new and vibrant church in the Middle East just as He graced us with in the fourth century with the Roman Empire.
We must all, as siblings in Christ Jesus, try to remember that no prayer ascends to Heaven without divine transport. We can whisper a quiet prayer to our departed grandfather just as we can offer a hopeful prayer to our spiritual mother. When we set aside legalism, we are better able to appreciate the fuller truth that divine love is truly and quite literally without limits. Rather than quibble around telling the Divinity who He is, it may be more faithful to be grateful for his love. After all, asking my wife for a hug is not worship. It’s just love. Oh yes…we were commanded to love one another, weren’t we? Hmmmm.



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John

posted November 3, 2010 at 10:08 am


This is an interesting side discussion here – one I would like to probe further. Some background – I was raised Catholic but the Catholic Church (IMO) did a horrible job explaining to me WHAT they believe, let alone WHY I should believe Christianity (I attended CCD, confirmation classes, etc). They lost me while I was in high school – I became agnostic. Now, a couple decades later, I’m back in the faith, but attending a Methodist church.
Now my question and it is related to Nancy’s post. Even taking Taro’s reply in consideration, it always scared me that many Roman Catholics that I know seem to pray to the Saints as if praying to them or in their name was a biblical thing to do – like it would accomplish something as if praying to God himself. Even more troubling, they seem to have idols of “the patron saint of this-or-that” (like St. Christopher on their dashboard as the “patron St. of travelers”).
That always frightens me because it seems to me it came very close to the polytheistic rituals of the ancient Greeks and Romans (you know – “the god of love”, “the god of water”, “the god of fill-in-the-blank”). I never understood why they didn’t just pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ – why the need for all the patron saints and why pray to them?
I never got a good answer to this question – even the RCC seemed to condone this kind of thing.
Can someone explain to me the RCC position on the “patron saints” and how/when they pray to them or in their name? I’m honestly seeking an answer – I simply do not know the theology involved in this subject and always wanted to know the RCC position on this.
Thanks.



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JosephW

posted November 3, 2010 at 10:44 am


From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
2683 The witnesses who have preceded us into the kingdom,41 especially those whom the Church recognizes as saints, share in the living tradition of prayer by the example of their lives, the transmission of their writings, and their prayer today. They contemplate God, praise him and constantly care for those whom they have left on earth. When they entered into the joy of their Master, they were “put in charge of many things.”42 Their intercession is their most exalted service to God’s plan. We can and should ask them to intercede for us and for the whole world.
41 Cf. Heb 12:1.
42 Cf. Mt 25:21.
I would also recommend reading Scott Hahn’s book “Reasons to Believe”.



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JIM

posted November 3, 2010 at 10:50 am


TARO ,
I respect the sensitivity of this article but the ” TRUTH ” must be defended.Concerning 1 tim 2 : PAUL ( thru the H/S) was explaining that JESUS CHRIST was the only one able to go between man and GOD to enable them to have a ” relationship ” , but entirely on GOD’S terms.
“” one mediator between GOD and mankind, the HUMAN , CHRIST JESUS ”
This is the ” incarnation ” : A divine person united to a human nature.
TARO, you must look at the context and read 1 TIM 2 : 6 : ” CHRIST JESUS who gave himself a ransom for all , revealing GOD’S purpose at HIS appointed time. ”
TARO. here are some complimentary scriptures to read :* 2 tim 1 : 9-10; * TITUS 2 : 11-14 ; * TITUS 3 : 4-7
TARO , IT’S TIME TO GET OFF THE MILK AND START CHEWING ON SOME OF THE ” MEAT ” OF GOD’S INFALLIBLE , INERRANT WORD.



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Bryan

posted November 3, 2010 at 10:53 am


The history and theology of the RCC is well documented in the book, “A woman rides the beast” by Dave Hunt. If you want to learn where, why, and how the RCC church began, this book is for you. WARNING: DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE EASILY OFFENDED. Go to http://www.bereancall.com for other helpful info. Regardless of the differences we may have about our theology, the killing of innocent people in a church is heartbreaking. It’s sad to see people suffer so much in that part of the world.



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JosephW

posted November 3, 2010 at 11:29 am


Bryan,
The author you quote is a well know Anti-Catholic Fundamentalist, so I don’t understand how the history of the RCC is well documented in his book. But if you want some history of the author and responses to all his arguments I suggest you read the following links:
http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?id=875
http://www.catholic.com/library/Hunting_the_Whore_of_Babylon.asp
If that is not enough read Karl Keating’s “Catholicism and fundamentalism”.



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William

posted November 3, 2010 at 12:40 pm


The way so many like to bash Roman Catholics is pretty disappointing. Aren’t we to love one another? Isn’t the growing of the mystical body of Christ the work of the Holy Spirit? Wouldn’t it be better to pray for wisdom than to critique the Potter?
Jesus gave the Roman Empire into the hands of his Church even as He had given the Hebrews a homeland before them. Yes, they made mistakes. We are created imperfect for good reason. Let’s put the stone throwing aside, clothe ourselves in at least a little more humility, and be grateful for all of those who love God.



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AlDelG

posted November 3, 2010 at 1:23 pm


Here we are, mourning the deaths of some of those who share our faith and asking for prayers for them, and some outsiders use this as a forum to bash our beliefs.
Amazing …



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Bruce

posted November 3, 2010 at 2:18 pm


It should be noted upfront that this is a forum for mourning those people who suffered death by mans violence! Than, everyone can come here and understand that this is about morning the horrendous condition and depravity of mans fall as seen everywhere in this life as mans violence comes against another who should be his neighbor! Its source is pride and self righteousness which needs no neighbor to come against him in any religious form.
Than no one will discuss the truth or doctrines which cause one to attack another all over again! The people who mourn than would have no reason for attack on others who know the reason for mans violence and desire they preach the solution to all the nations and people who mourn – Jesus Christ who was attacked the greatest even to death and never spoke a word against his attackers as they crucified him!
Why was this forum made to exist? It ought to be stated and made clear here! Is it to prop up the catholics and put down any or all who come against it? Or is it mourning of mans violence and is need?



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Bruce

posted November 3, 2010 at 2:41 pm


Oh, I am deeply sorry! I did not know or understand that this is a Catholic forum where outsides are not welcomed to comment!
So will leave this thought with those who truly love God. Jesus was sent into the world to suffer the penalty of Gods wrath against man who rebells against him in sin and pride of self righteousness or self-goodness and self-holiness and so forth! For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten so to die for sinners! That who so ever believes in him has eternal life and has passed over death!
I mourn for those who know not this good news and die in anyway by the hands of man or sins consequences in death! Who have not truly been born of the spirit from above for the forgiveness of their sins! Religion must be truthful to man and it must exalt our Savior and Lord and debase any man who stands next to me in his glory and work done through mans own hands to crucify him! We are all guilty!!!! God help each and everyone here to see him crucified for sin! OUR SIN!
So as an outsider, I apologize for my intrusion in this Catholic forum meant for Catholics and no others!



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JIM

posted November 3, 2010 at 2:46 pm


JosephW
HEY JOE , some thoughts on MARY.
Look @ luke 1: 46 , 47 : what did MARY say ?
” My soul exalts the LORD. ” MARY submits to GOD !
GOD does not submit to MARY !
MARY exalts the LORD ,the LORD doesn’t exalt MARY !
VERSE 47 > ” My spirit has rejoiced in GOD MY SAVIOR !! ” To acknowledge that GOD is her SAVIOR is to acknowledge that she is a sinner !
In PSALM 116 ,the psalmist thanks the LORD for delivering him
from a life threatening crisis ( vs 4 )
Wasn’t it POPE JOHN PAUL 11 when he was shot kept crying : MARY , save me … MARY , save me …… > I DON’T THINK SO !!
WHY CALL UPON THE LORD ??



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JosephW

posted November 3, 2010 at 4:43 pm


Jim,
I don’t believe I stated God submits to Mary. I would encourage you to read some of JPII writings on Mary and also St Louis De Montfort. Mary predicted the attempt on JPII life at Fatima. He put the bullet from the attack in the crown at Fatima. Remember or hear about the miracle of the sun? 50,000+ witnessed this event.
“Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you.” Luke 1 28
“When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the infant leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth, filled with the holy Spirit, cried out in a loud voice and said “Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb” Luke 1 41-42
“When Jesus saw his mother and the disciple there whom he loved, he said to his mother, “Woman, behold, your son.” Then he said to the disciple, “Behold, your mother.” And from that hour the disciple took her into his home.” John 19 26-27
It is held and I believe that Mary is the Mother of all humanity as Christ declared above. Why should we not be able to go to our Mother and ask for intercession? We are not worshiping anyone other than God.



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dnwnnr

posted November 3, 2010 at 5:27 pm


Here’s a news flash, The Bible didn’t exist for 350 years. The Catholic Chruch decided what books go in the Bible and the Catholic church knows and understands how it was written.
You protastants can’t even agree on the trinity, salvation, Baptism or ANY other teaching. There are even protastants who don’t believe Jesus was GOD. So cleanup your own back yard before attacking what you don’t know. Written from a convert who read the Church Fathers, and studied what was true. Its good to be home.



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John

posted November 3, 2010 at 5:50 pm


I don’t understand, the title of this blog was “Oh Mary, Christ, God, please protect us” which, in the comments, spawned an interesting side conversation discussing the Catholic theology of the patron saints and the praying to Mary. My question and the resulting responses have been deleted. I got good information in those comments that helped address that question, but is now gone. I was honestly seeking the Catholic answers to that. why delete them?
dnwnnr – there is no one “Protestant” backyard to clean up. There are different theologies within Christianity (of which Roman Catholicism is one). You bringing up fringe groups (those that don’t believe Jesus was God or believe in the Trinity can hardly be considered mainstream) is a straw man that you are using to denigrate non-Catholic Christians. I don’t know what you are getting at honestly.
“The Bible didn’t exist for 350 years” – yes, the “Bible” as a canonical collection of documents did not exist- however, that is not to say the books within the bible were not canonical at the time they were written in the last half of the first century AD. And I still don’t know what you are getting at. Perhaps someone deleted a comment that you were referring to – and I lost context in your response.



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John

posted November 3, 2010 at 6:00 pm


shoot – I’m an idiot. I didn’t realize I had to click the “comments” link to get the list of all past comments – by default it only shows the last couple. I’m totally “a stupid”. Thanks for not deleting this stuff :)
As for those that think we are bashing Catholicism, that isn’t what we (at least me) is doing. I was honestly asking the question since it did seem to me people were worshipping the Saints and Mary as a deity. I was only trying to spur discussion on the Catholic theology. I was hoping Catholics would take this as an opportunity to explain it (which some of you did, thanks). I am afraid some Catholics either don’t know or can’t explain why they believe what they believe so they fallback to an aggressive “defense mode” – but you really should understand some people are truly inquisitive and want to learn about the different Christian thoughts – engaging in a dialogue is what you should want to do.



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Bruce

posted November 3, 2010 at 6:07 pm


The immense state of man is seen the the catholic bible. Jesus said, sell all to the poor and follow me! Cut off the right eye or right hand which sins! Strive to enter into the narrow gate for few find the way!
God is holy and pure and will vomit any out of his mouth who come near him with sin! He cannot be approached by any man who sins in any way! He abhors sin! And none can be forgiven but that they are fully taken care of! His wrath is great to all who sin! And that wrath must fall upon all who sin if God is just! And God is just!
The good news is this! God so lived the world he gave his only son to suffer the penalty of mans sin so to give to them a new heart, a new spirit from above to love him for all he did for them he loves. Jesus is the absolute sacrifice of all our sin! He paid the price and it was heavy though he was without sin! He suffered the pangs of death that we rightly must suffer for our sin against God alone, if God is just! So hear the truth in the catholic bible or by our very nature! I don’t care to discuss the issue of who made the bible for I have also looked and see who it was and how it came to be. Their were no catholics than as their are today!! Catholic means universal church – not a tradition as the church of Rome is!
Jesus is the only mediator between man and God! The only! None other! No papistry of group of apostles who exclude Paul! They have seen christ and that is what makes them to be apostles. Live witnesses! Their are no more though their are many great saints today and throughout the past. No succession of apostles, only Saints! And you must be one of those saints to be saved! For they are all sinners forgiven by God so to see Him crucified for sin!
Mans works are no good nor his goodness of any value to God. For none is good but God, Jesus said that – read the bible and quit taking other peoples words and power to be exalted above you and christ!
I beg you to come to christ as a beggar, naked and in great need of him, his righteousness, his goodness, his holiness, his obedience, his everything to cover you completely and make you white as snow before God! He will give to you all this as well as the spirit from above so to be made new! By faith alone do the righteous walk!
Fall on your knees and cry out, unclean, unclean, I am unclean – cleanse me and I will be cleansed! But you will not! So believe in Christ and you shall be saved!



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RomCath

posted November 3, 2010 at 6:11 pm


John, there is plenty of information at your fingertips eg google to find out what you want to know about Catholics, Mary and patron saints. That if you are sincererly curious.
Methinks you were trying to get a rise out of people and you succeeded. You obviously are internet savvy so use it to learn and not to stir up peoples’ “defense mode”.



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olmc

posted November 3, 2010 at 7:00 pm


When the early generations of Christians were hiding in the catacombs, they were serious in their prayers. We have papyrus from the third century with the Sub Tuum, the prayer which is “We fly to your patronage oh Holy Mother of God, despise not our prayers but in your mercy hear and answer us.” Catholic practice of praying to Mary, all Catholic doctrines for that matter, were universal (Catholic means universal BTW and was coined in 107 AD by Ignatius of Antioch, a disciple of John the Apostle) until the beginnings of the Conglomination with Martin Luther.
May Mary Queen of Martyrs, whose power of course comes from your Son, give strength the martyrs of our times as you have to the martyrs of all times. Amen.



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nnmns

posted November 4, 2010 at 8:57 am


I can see we needn’t fear the uniting of Christianity for a year or two, anyway.
Back to the topic at hand, someone asked “Does anyone know a prayer for persecuted Christians?” As Texas Deacon pointed out, Iraq is in an awful mess, arguable much worse than before Bush’s insane invasion and thousands dead and at least two ruined economies (one being ours).
I think our concerns could reasonably be for everyone there who is or has been persecuted. We need to widen our horizons to all people, not just Christians (whomever you may include in that term).



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John

posted November 4, 2010 at 9:07 am


RomCath:
> Methinks you were trying to get a rise out of people and you succeeded.
Totally untrue and is why it is hard to have a true dialogue on the internet because you can’t see the person, his body language, etc behind the words to determine true intent. As I said, I was raised Roman Catholic but as a boy/young man the RCC did a bad job of educating me and because I lacked any type of knowledge of WHY I should believe their teaching (I’m really into apologetics, its the type of person I am) I drifted away. I never could convince myself of the atheistic viewpoint and ended up going to a Methodist church (primarily because I was not being spiritually AND intellectually fed at my old RCC).
Now that I’m older and wiser, I wanted to seek answers re: the Catholic church. I doubt I’ll ever become a true practicing RomCath again, however, I’m certainly not one of those Protestants that harbor hatred for other Christians. In fact, this thread of comments here has totally shocked me – I had no idea there was this vitriol/hatred between (some) Catholics and (some) Protestants. Perhaps its because I grew up Catholic which is why I never saw it or harbor those feelings. I knew about the Reformation, but haven’t studied it deeply and I can’t believe the hatred is still around that seems to have spawned from that movement.



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RomCath

posted November 4, 2010 at 10:51 am


“As I said, I was raised Roman Catholic but as a boy/young man the RCC did a bad job of educating me”
Why would you blame the Church for not educating you? How about educating yourself? Have you got a copy of the Catholic Cathechism? Have you read anything about Mary and the saints?
If you don’t have the books, it is all on the internet. There are also several many Catolic apologetics sites you can visit. Stop blaming others and take the bull by the horns.



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John

posted November 4, 2010 at 1:45 pm


Ahh… that’s where I am now! See? I’m researching!
Now, first – remember, I was young – born a Catholic. You can’t expect a 10-year, 15-year old to educate themselves! You can’t expect a pre-teen or even a young teenager to read the Catholic Catechism and understand it! You, as elders and leaders of the church have to do this – it is the job of more mature Catholics/Christians to educate your children. (BTW: I put some blame on my parents as well) So, yes, I DO blame the Catholic Church for dropping the ball on me. As I said, by the time I was in high school, the Catholic Church lost me.
Now I am older; now I AM mature enough to try to educate myself on Christian theology and teachings. So now I am exploring and searching for answers myself.
Growing up Catholic and now in a Protestant world, I never saw this vitriol exhibited between the two “camps” – I am surprised and still can’t believe the literal hatred I am now seeing between some non-Catholics and some Catholics. I never knew it existed, but now I do. I didn’t realize asking Catholics to explain their theology would be taken in such a negative way with such negative reactions. I tried asking in a respectful manner – I hope it came across that way to most people here.
As I mentioned in another blog comments section, I really wish more Christians (Catholics too!) followed St. Peter’s advice in 1 Peter 3:15.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Peter+3%3A15&version=NIV



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John

posted November 4, 2010 at 1:53 pm


BTW: A big thank you to JosephW – his reply to my question was exactly what I was looking for – he pointed me to the exact section in the Catechism that explained the Catholic position. And he gave me a reference to a book that he recommends.
A perfect “1 Peter 3:15″ response :-)



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JosephW

posted November 4, 2010 at 3:13 pm


John,
I understand where you are coming from, I would encourage you to keep searching for the truth. God will lead you there. Us Catholics who understand the faith get very defensive at times because of so much misunderstanding out there about what the Church actually teaches. I would invite you to take a look at the website http://www.catholicscomehome.com. I learned a lot about my faith by listening to Scott Hahn, Karl Keating, Father Corapi and Patrick Madrid plus many others. They all offered me something that I needed to build up my faith.
Peace be with you



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Susan

posted November 5, 2010 at 5:46 pm


Mary does not protect people. She is Jesus mother, only.
Call on Christ, He is all you need.



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Debbie D

posted November 7, 2010 at 5:59 pm


What a mighty God we serve!! Faith, it’s all about believing in something that is not seen, but that can be felt in the heart and seen in the soul.
Please do not bash the Church, it existed far before Martin Luther and will exist long after. Just know in your heart that Jesus is LORD!!



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Steve

posted November 7, 2010 at 8:06 pm


HMmmm… Being born and raised Roman Catholic, and abandoning my faith as a teenager in the early ’60s, mostly because I was a rebellious, headstrong boy, I can identify with the others who have done similarly. The teachings of the Church that I received during my parochial years (1st thru 8th grades) did, to their credit, give me the basics of my faith, to wit: a strong unshakable foundation in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. But for more than 10 years, I lived the life of a non-believer, or at least one of the fallen. It wasn’t until 1972, thru a totally unexpected event, that I came to realize that the Father has always been watching over me, and that a substantive faith in Jesus as my Savior and Lord, was my only path to salvation. So I said the Sinner’s Prayer, was baptised AS AN UNDERSTANDING ADULT, and began learning what the scriptures have to say about salvation and the things of GOD. Now, some 40 years later, I realize that altho the Church does indeed show some of the basics of salvation (the trinity, and the atonement of our sins by His blood), the theology is sadly mistaken concerning the correct method, and the worship of any personage other than the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is absolutely forbidden by scripture. I hold no animosity towards the Church, indeed I thank it for giving me a rope to hold on to during those years of darkness. I do however, hope and pray that ALL Catholics might find true salvation, for I am afraid that if they rely entirely on their catechism, and not on the leading of the Holy spirit, they are in for quite a surprise when they stand in front of the Judgement Seat.



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Ron

posted November 8, 2010 at 10:20 am


Why has this turned into a Christian debate. How selfish is that? We are all Christians. We are not put here to judge one another. This comments page should be for our prayers to those who are being persecuted in the name of the lord. Lets please just pray for those who lost their lives in this horrific demonstration of evil acts.



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Marcus

posted November 10, 2010 at 7:19 pm


Anytime you pray to, or sings to, or otherwise honor a spiritual being it’s called WORSHIP. Therefore, praying to Mary or singing songs to her is idolatry..
[Sorry, Marcus. You don't understand Catholic Marian theology, or seem to grasp that it's possible to sing songs to someone out of love. We do not worship the Mother of God. We honor her and love her and ask her to pray for us. Dcn. G.]



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JIM

posted November 11, 2010 at 11:05 am


dcn greg,
isn’t true tha that Mary is called the queen of heaven and therefore the rival of the KING OF HEAVEN , the sovereign GOD himself. she is granted sovereignty , worhy of worship, worthy of praise. i think psalm 115 differs greatly !
” the glories of Mary ” . ” at the command of Mary, all obey , even
GOD ”
This goddess worship is blashemy against GOD , HIS SON & THE HOLY SPIRIT ( who is the comforter, the helper , the advocate . not mary ! )
MARY is even the sanctifier who works to make her chidren pure !
It’s so sad when you actually read what the BIBLE says about MARY.
From her own lips she celebrated that you GOD , ARE HER SAVIOR .



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Deacon Greg Kandra

posted November 11, 2010 at 11:25 am


No, JIM.
You are wrong. Nobody rivals the King of Kings.
Mary’s relationship to the Church and to Christ is much more beautiful and complex than your understanding of it — which is, frankly, simplistic and ill-informed.
You can read more here, in the Catholic Catechism.
Blessings,
Deacon Greg



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JIM

posted November 12, 2010 at 2:17 pm


DCN GREG,
RC CATECHISM pg 252 : # 969 ” Therefore the blessed virgin is involved in the church under the title of advocate, helper, benefactrix and mediatrix ” ( is this the same as co-redemptrix ? )
I thought JESUS said he would send a comforter ( parakletos ) the h/s after his ascension to the father.
The H/S WAS TO LEAD THEM TO DEEPER KNOWLEDGE OF THE GOSPEL TRUTH and give his followers divine strength needed to enable them to undergo trials and persecutions on behalf of the kingdom.
JOHN PAUL II said : ” the history of christian piety teaches MARY is the way that leads to CHRIST ” ???
I thought JESUS said HE was the way , the truth and the life !



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Mr. Incredible, in the Name of Jesus

posted November 26, 2010 at 5:50 pm


Mary is no mediator. The Word of God says that Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and Man.



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