The Deacon's Bench

The Deacon's Bench


Priests commit no more abuse than others

posted by jmcgee

If you think sex abuse is committed at a higher rate by priests…think again:

priest_collar.jpgThe Catholic sex-abuse stories emerging every day suggest that Catholics have a much bigger problem with child molestation than other denominations and the general population. Many point to peculiarities of the Catholic Church (its celibacy rules for priests, its insular hierarchy, its exclusion of women) to infer that there’s something particularly pernicious about Catholic clerics that predisposes them to these horrific acts. It’s no wonder that, back in 2002–when the last Catholic sex-abuse scandal was making headlines–a Wall Street Journal-NBC News poll found that 64 percent of those queried thought Catholic priests “frequently” abused children.

Yet experts say there’s simply no data to support the claim at all. No formal comparative study has ever broken down child sexual abuse by denomination, and only the Catholic Church has released detailed data about its own. But based on the surveys and studies conducted by different denominations over the past 30 years, experts who study child abuse say they see little reason to conclude that sexual abuse is mostly a Catholic issue. “We don’t see the Catholic Church as a hotbed of this or a place that has a bigger problem than anyone else,” said Ernie Allen, president of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children. “I can tell you without hesitation that we have seen cases in many religious settings, from traveling evangelists to mainstream ministers to rabbis and others.”

Since the mid-1980s, insurance companies have offered sexual misconduct coverage as a rider on liability insurance, and their own studies indicate that Catholic churches are not higher risk than other congregations. Insurance companies that cover all denominations, such as Guide One Center for Risk Management, which has more than 40,000 church clients, does not charge Catholic churches higher premiums. “We don’t see vast difference in the incidence rate between one denomination and another,” says Sarah Buckley, assistant vice president of corporate communications. “It’s pretty even across the denominations.” It’s been that way for decades. While the company saw an uptick in these claims by all types of churches around the time of the 2002 U.S. Catholic sex-abuse scandal, Eric Spacick, Guide One’s senior church-risk manager, says “it’s been pretty steady since.” On average, the company says 80 percent of the sexual misconduct claims they get from all denominations involve sexual abuse of children. As a result, the more children’s programs a church has, the more expensive its insurance, officials at Guide One said.

The only hard data that has been made public by any denomination comes from John Jay College’s study of Catholic priests, which was authorized and is being paid for by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops following the public outcry over the 2002 scandals. Limiting their study to plausible accusations made between 1950 and 1992, John Jay researchers reported that about 4 percent of the 110,000 priests active during those years had been accused of sexual misconduct involving children. Specifically, 4,392 complaints (ranging from “sexual talk” to rape) were made against priests by 10,667 victims. (Reports made after 2002, including those of incidents that occurred years earlier, are released as part of the church’s annual audits.)

Experts disagree on the rate of sexual abuse among the general American male population, but Allen says a conservative estimate is one in 10. Margaret Leland Smith, a researcher at the John Jay College of Criminal Justice, says her review of the numbers indicates it’s closer to one in 5. But in either case, the rate of abuse by Catholic priests is not higher than these national estimates. The public also doesn’t realize how “profoundly prevalent” child sexual abuse is, adds Smith. Even those numbers may be low; research suggests that only a third of abuse cases are ever reported (making it the most underreported crime). “However you slice it, it’s a very common experience,” Smith says.

Check out the link for the rest.



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ds0490

posted April 8, 2010 at 10:41 pm


Kinda gives a new meaning to the words, “be ye holy as I am holy,” eh?



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ds0490

posted April 8, 2010 at 10:45 pm


“It is true, as many in your country have pointed out, that the problem of child abuse is peculiar neither to Ireland nor to the Church. Nevertheless, the task you now face is to address the problem of abuse that has occurred within the Irish Catholic community, and to do so with courage and determination.”
Pope Benedict XVI in his letter to the Catholics of Ireland
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/letters/2010/documents/hf_ben-xvi_let_20100319_church-ireland_en.html
Strange, he doesn’t spend a lot of time comparing priests to the rest of society.



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Holy Cannoli

posted April 8, 2010 at 10:48 pm


>>>Priests commit no more abuse than others
So then, what could possibly be the reason for the inordinate amount of media heat directed toward the Catholic Church and HH?
>>>VATICAN CITY – The Vatican heatedly defended Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, claiming accusations that he helped cover up the actions of pedophile priests are part of an anti-Catholic “hate” campaign targeting the pope for his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36199052/ns/world_news-europe/



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ds0490

posted April 8, 2010 at 10:50 pm


1980’s = “It’s just a few bad apples.”
1990’s = “It’s just a Boston problem.”
2000’s = “It’s just an American problem.”
2010’s = “We’re really no worse than the rest of society.”
Is this a game of limbo, Deacon? How low can you put the bar and still get over it?



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Holy Cannoli

posted April 8, 2010 at 10:54 pm


Which group of Catholic Church haters do you belong to?
The pro baby-killing or the homosexual marriage crowd?



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markolsen

posted April 8, 2010 at 11:31 pm


The church abuse scandal proves the strong link between homosexuality and abuse of minors. As per independent studies done by John Jay Criminal Justice College in 2010, by USA Today in 2002, by Boston Globe in 2003, and as per victims’ attorneys, 90 % of the victims are boys, between 12 and 17 years of age. The church should get rid of all homosexuals, and never again, allow any homosexuals enter the seminaries. And, society once and for all, has to understand that homosexual marriage is a travesty, and that adoption by homosexual couples, is child abuse.



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Mario

posted April 8, 2010 at 11:41 pm


Whether priests abuse children more, less or about as often as others do, that is not the fact that upsets those around the world. The main fact that upsets people is that these pedophile priests are shuffled around like a game of 3 Card Monty.



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Eka

posted April 8, 2010 at 11:45 pm


Actually according to this article, priests abuse children less than most other men… 4% of priests vs. 5-10% of the general male population.
But any way you look at it … it’s still awful!



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 1:58 am


You people really need to clear your heads. This is not about “a game of limbo” and it’s not “excuse making.” This is about the all-out media assault on the church and the priesthood over the past few weeks. Now that the damage is done, Newsweek (not Deacon Greg, but good old secular Newsweek) declares, “hey, it’s not just priests, after all.”
But you want to blame the deacon, you’ll do it. People hear and see what they want to.
Here is what I see: In this Year of the Priest, the press is going out of its way to give the impression that all priests are not to be trusted.
Make of that what you will. I won’t waste my time wondering what your response will be. I can predict it.



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:02 am


Oh, and don’t EVEN try to accuse me of “neglecting the victims.” I don’t know a single catholic – priest or otherwise – who is not disgusted by the abuse, and insistent that the reforms be enforced and codified. But I also know that what happened 30 years ago is not happening in the same way today. And just like “this article doesn’t make it any better…” it’s also true that carrying on about the past without acknowledging what HAS gotten better does not help anyone, including the victims. It just makes people feel good about themselves, because you know…they CARE more than anyone else. Right?



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Panthera

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:39 am


Somehow, I don’t think the argument “but other guys rape even more children than we do” will cut much mustard with the Lord.
It troubles me greatly that the conservative Catholics are focussing nearly exclusively (if not exclusively) on the rape of boys and totally ignoring all the girls being raped.
Would this be because girls don’t matter – after all, we have many, many studies showing that both sexes were abused – or might it perhaps be because focussing on the boys makes it possible to continue the lie that this is a homosexual problem?
There is no genuine body of board certified doctors, psychiatrists, psychologists, paediatricians, teachers or police in the United States or Canada (much less EU Europe) which will defend the claim by the Catholic church that homosexuality is a choice and that homosexuals are paedophiles.
Not even the FBI under Bush#43 was willing to support that.
It just is not true and continuing to tell these lies neither makes it true nor does it help the church in preventing these rapes from continuing.
When a girl is raped, we don’t hear anybody screaming that heterosexuals must be banned from the priesthood. Why? Simple – because rape has nothing to do with sexual orientation and everything to do with violence and mental illness.
This is not going to go away, the Catholic church can rally the extremely conservative folks with these lies, but she is not going to satisfy the concerns of the rest of us Christians.
You know, of all the hateful things said here over the last days, I do believe this is the nastiest you have produced yet, Holy Cannoli. The last time we saw this sort of attack was in the Naz i era.
quote:
Holy Cannoli
April 8, 2010 10:54 PM
Which group of Catholic Church haters do you belong to?
The pro baby-killing or the homosexual marriage crowd?
endquote
It really says something about your mindset that you feel people who try to protect children from rape, married gay people (like me) and pro-choice advocates are all bad people.
How on earth can you defend the rape of children?
When did the demands of a healthy conscience get replaced by blind obedience to principle which is based on lies and false witness, built on the suffering of rape victims?



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clasqm

posted April 9, 2010 at 4:56 am


Police officers don’t commit more crimes than the general population
Lawyers don’t break the law more often than the general population
Doctors don’t commit more murders than the general population
Oh yes, and priests don’t rape more children than anybody else.
This must be the silliest argument of the year. By taking on any one of these titles, you commit yourself to a far higher standard of behaviour than the common run of humanity. You are supposed to be the ones we in the great unwashed masses look up to for guidance (and incidentally, to provide you with a comfortable living). But if, as you say. you are really no better or worse than the rest of us, what exactly are you there for? What use are you? Do we need you at all?
ONE case of child rape by a priest is one case too many. ONE cover-up by a bishop is one too many.



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Goodguyex

posted April 9, 2010 at 6:29 am


Panthera writes “Somehow, I don’t think the argument “but other guys rape even more children than we do” will cut much mustard with the Lord”
Most likely it will not. But you are not the Lord and unlike the Lord the rape or abuse of “children” who are not Catholic priests does not cut much or any mustard with you.



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Goodguyex

posted April 9, 2010 at 6:35 am


I noticed something else. It is is try that between 5 and 10% of the general adult male population is guilty in some degree of sexual child abuse (I think that 5-6% is about right) it becomes problematical that many will be sent to police, much less sent to jail. Just too many.
Only the more egregious can and will be charged.
Ultimately society has confront the fact of significant man-teen boy sex (pederisty, not pedophilia), like in the Greek states of old.
This priest abuse think is in some ways just a dress rehearsal for this coming fuss.



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Curious

posted April 9, 2010 at 7:27 am


I think the point of the article is to debunk the notion that this is a Catholic problem. It is not to dismiss or condone the fact that abuse has taken place in the Church. The article suggests that the inordinate amount of media attention on the Church is misguided if the problem exists in society to a greater extent. Where are the articles on the other groups, churches, institutions?
In NY public schools teachers accused are still paid and sit in rubber rooms doing nothing all day. The Orthodox Jewish community in Brooklyn has had many cases–where are the articles?
It is not a matter of boys or girls, it is a matter that none of this should be happening.



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Your Name

posted April 9, 2010 at 7:34 am


Markolsen
>>>The church should get rid of all homosexuals, and never again, allow any homosexuals enter the seminaries.
Exactly
>>>There have been girl altar servers in some U.S. dioceses since 1983, and almost everywhere since 1994. The statistics actually show that the more priests have access to girls, the less likely it is for girls to be abused.
>>>Here’s the tally. As reported in 2004, between 1950 and 2002, 81 percent of the victims were male; in 2005, it stayed the same; in 2006, it dropped to 80 percent; in 2007, it climbed to 82 percent; in 2008, it jumped to 84 percent; and in 2009, it stayed at 84 percent.
>>>In other words, even though priests have less access to males, homosexual priests are molesting them at a higher rate. It’s time to end the gay cover-up once and for all.
Credit to Bill Donohue
———————————–
Dana MacKenzie
>>>People hear and see what they want to.
There is clear evidence of that right on this board.
Dana MacKenzie
>>>. It just makes people feel good about themselves,
Which can and, in select cases, leads to Pathological Narcissism (an extreme manifestation of healthy narcissism) and other associated psychological anomalies such as Obsessive/Compulsive disorder.
—————————————-
clasqm
The point is not to defend any type of criminal activity especially the crimes against post pubescent children (primarily boys).
The question is why is the media focused upon the Catholic Church and not other groups who also are guilty of the same crimes.
For example, have we witnessed a similar media Blitzkrieg against the Anglicans? No! Do you think that the media’s favorable treatment of this denomination could have anything to do with the Anglican liberal stance with respect to homosexuals, i.e, homosexual “marriage” and openly homosexual ministers ?
———————————-
Goodguyex
Writing to Panthea:
>>> you are not the Lord
He/she is not going to like to hear that. ;-)
—————————————–
Panthera,
Smooch
xxoo



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Holy Cannoli

posted April 9, 2010 at 7:50 am


I’d recognize that masked man anywhere.
lol



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AT

posted April 9, 2010 at 8:12 am


This kind of article is quite disturbing. The Church is a SACRAMENT of Jesus. This is the childish response of “but mom, everybody else was doing it.”
If the church is called to conversion by the media then that is by the Grace of God. Blessed are they who have eyes to see and ears to hear.



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Deacon Greg Kandra

posted April 9, 2010 at 8:13 am


DS…
The point, which perhaps I did not make clear enough for you, is that the media is focusing like a laser beam on the Catholic Church, and using the sex abuse scandals to bludgeon the hierarchy, celibacy, the all-male priesthood, you name it. People then conclude, well, it must be a Catholic problem, they gotta get rid of that ridiculous old celibacy rule and let women become priests, and that will solve everything.
But here’s the inconvenient truth: it’s not just a Catholic thing. This cancer is everywhere. The Newsweek article finally clarifies that, and places child sex abuse in context.
I wonder if any other media outlets will bother to do the same. I’m not holding my breath.
Dcn. G.



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Klaire

posted April 9, 2010 at 8:15 am


For the sake of clarity, can someone please explain to me why when I made this same point at the beginning of this ‘sexual abuse medica crisis’
http://blog.beliefnet.com/deaconsbench/2010/03/there-is-no-better-time-for-repentance_comments.html
I was “Put in my place by Kate”, subsequently by Paula, and even an “Amen” by you Dcn. Greg.
I never tried to make excuses for the sins of our priests, even dispite the fact that most of the guilty are now dead. More than anything, I was trying to bring attention to the current abuse that goes on NOW and is for the most part, being ingorned. Also, as Mark Olson pointed out above, homosexuality has severe consequences to not only our children but to the family and all of society.
I “get it” that the CC had cover-up, that we had, and still have a few, sinful priest and bad bishops, but that’s its own issue, which for the life of me, can’t comprehend why we aren’t all up in arms for the media failing to do the “rest of its job” and go after ALL of the child abusers.
I have to admit, I was a bit shocked to see this article out of Newsweek. I wonder how much pressure they got to do it?



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oldestof9

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:14 am


Many years ago, my mom was reading a series of books called “The Wandering Jew”. I was kind of young then and I asked her if I could read them. She told me that they were about evil but that if I thought I could handle that, then it would be OK for me to at least start the first one to see how it went, and so I started the first book.
The story was OK; there were no words in it that I didn’t understand; there was nothing nasty about the plot, but I could feel a presence to the story that made me feel very uncomfortable. I finally realized that what my mom had meant was NOT that the story was ABOUT evil, but that the story WAS evil. Due, I suppose to a lack of maturity, I could not read the book…and I had read less than 20 pages.
I DOUBT that it will do any good………
……..but this blog; these posts remind me of that book.



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JIM

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:19 am


I can’t decide if the RCC is comparable to the CHURCH IN SARDIS THAT WAS SPIRITUALLY DEAD OR THE CHURCH IN LAODICEA THAT ACQUIRED great wealth.?



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Paul

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:29 am


Subject: Proud to be Catholic!!
Excerpts of an article written by Sam Miller, prominent Cleveland Jewish businessman – NOT Catholic.
Why would newspapers carry on a vendetta on one of the most important institutions that we have today in the United States , namely the Catholic Church?
Do you know – the Catholic Church educates 2.6 million students everyday at the cost to that Church of 10 billion dollars, and a savings on the other hand to the American taxpayer of 18 billion dollars. The graduates go on to graduate studies at the rate of 92%.
The Church has 230 colleges and universities in the U.S. with an enrollment of 700,000 students.
The Catholic Church has a non-profit hospital system of 637 hospitals, which account for hospital treatment of 1 out of every 5 people ˆ not just Catholics – in the United States today
But the press is vindictive and trying to totally denigrate in every way the Catholic Church in this country. They have blamed the disease of pedophilia on the Catholic Church, which is as irresponsible as blaming adultery on the institution of marriage.
Let me give you some figures that Catholics should know and remember. For example, 12% of the 300 Protestant clergy surveyed admitted to sexual intercourse with a parishioner; 38% acknowledged other inappropriate sexual contact in a study by the United Methodist Church , 41.8% of clergy women reported unwanted sexual behavior; 17% of laywomen have been sexually harassed. Meanwhile, 1.7% of the Catholic clergy has been found guilty of pedophilia. 10% of the Protestant ministers have been found guilty of pedophilia. This is not a Catholic Problem.
A study of American priests showed that most are happy in the priesthood and find it even better than they had expected, and that most, if given the choice, would choose to be priests again in face of all this obnoxious PR the church has been receiving.
The Catholic Church is bleeding from self-inflicted wounds. The agony that Catholics have felt and suffered is not necessarily the fault of the Church. You have been hurt by a small number of wayward priests that have probably been totally weeded out by now.
Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States .
Then remember what Jeremiah said: ‘Stand by the roads, and look and ask for the ancient paths, where the good way is and walk in it, and find rest for your souls’. Be proud to speak up for your faith with pride and reverence and learn what your Church does for all other religions. Be proud that you’re a Catholic.



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Todd

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:34 am


The media focuses on the Church for a few reasons:
1. Blood in the water sells product. Much of celebrity news is generated on failure: athletes, actors, politicians. Reality tv, especially competitive reality sells. When someone is bleeding, the Christian response imitates the Samaritan. The culture’s response imitates sharks.
2. The institutional cover-up. While families do cover up adult-on-child abuse, it’s relatively small potatoes. Bishops have admitted–finally–that they were active participants in hiding abuse from others. They were complicit in legal and moral crimes, either by incompetence or insolence. This scandal isn’t about abusers so much as the men who were groomed to protect them.
3. The protestations of innocence or we’re just as/not as bad as other groups draws attention. Victims and their loved ones are in pain, and the Church’s response is that it could have happened with your doctor, your child’s teacher, a grandparent, or a Scout leader? Since when is that ministry? The media smells a rat, and so do many of the faithful.
My suggestion is that we steer our compassion from bishops to victims. When we criticize lawyers, journalists, psychologists, and other side players we bloody the water a bit more. It’s the same behavior one might expect to see in people covering up. We should welcome the scrutiny, correct errors calmly as they arise, then move on.



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IC

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:53 am


I’m grateful to Newsweek (a rarity!) for the guts to print this side of the story (which doesn’t excuse the abuse or how the hierarchy handled it). The big story, lost in the blood-letting, is the prevelance of child abuse in our society. But I’m disappointed that the Newsweek story is apparently only on the web (a “web exclusive”). If you think this needs more play, go to Newsweek.com and Digg the story.



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IC

posted April 9, 2010 at 9:55 am


“My suggestion is that we steer our compassion from bishops to victims. When we criticize lawyers, journalists, psychologists, and other side players we bloody the water a bit more. It’s the same behavior one might expect to see in people covering up. We should welcome the scrutiny, correct errors calmly as they arise, then move on.”
Right on, Todd. But the dicey thing is how to correct misconceptions in the meantime. That strikes me as a legitimate enterprise.



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hlvanburen

posted April 9, 2010 at 10:22 am


It seems to me that the wrong standard of comparison is being used here. If the Bible is to be believed, the standard for “overseers” is higher than the standard for others, both in and out of the church.
1 Timothy 3: 1-7
Here is a trustworthy saying: If anyone sets his heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task. Now the overseer must be above reproach, the husband of but one wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him with proper respect. (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap.
I don’t know about you, but being above reproach seems like a fairly high standard to live up to. And while, being human, those overseers will fail at times, I expect that the excuse “well, the rest of the world is doing it too” will not pull much weight.
But then, hey…it’s your cafeteria. Pick and choose as you will. Just try not to complain when others choose a different menu than yours.



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Deacon Greg Kandra

posted April 9, 2010 at 10:48 am


HL…
I dare say, the media isn’t singling out the Catholic Church because it holds the Church to a higher standard.
Dcn. G.



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kenneth

posted April 9, 2010 at 10:49 am


Well, as long as the buggery rate is within “normal” we can all move along, folks. Nothing to see here. So if we’re now to judge the church according to the least common denominators of the culture, where exactly do you get off crowing about abortion and gay marriage, or really any moral issue at all? You guys could be bishops in Anton LaVey’s church. The moral reasoning is, word for word the same.
No one has ever implied that abuse is unique to the church. What is unique is that abusers had the willing help of a quasi-sovereign government to not only conceal their crimes, but also to commit more of them. Whether it was 10 percent of priests or only 1 percent, the church guaranteed them that they would be able to have as many child partners as they could physically handle from the time the left the seminary until they died of old age. This is the 8,000 pound gorilla in the room that the pope and his apologists are trying to distract us from. Any 5-year-old can see through that ruse, so that only leaves the willfully blind. Time to open your eyes, or circle the wagons, blame the media and enjoy the sunset days of your church.



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Kate

posted April 9, 2010 at 10:53 am


I have nothing more to add to my comments in previous blog entries last week with respect to this topic. I am only responding here because I was mentioned by name in a comment above. I stopped participating in last week’s dialogue because I had said what I felt compelled to say and the person who most stridently disagreed with me seemed determined to have the last word, so I just let them have that last word. I had honestly felt that person had been largely in agreement, just looking from two different angles and that I was just not able to convince them otherwise. I cannot make someone see what they cannot or do not want to see. And that’s okay. Besides, by the time I stopped replying and posting on this topic, I was starting to have to deal with my own past issues cropping up again and dragging me down, so I cut bait, stopped talking about this issue and waited for the relative safety of my therapist’s office this week to help manage my increased anxiety levels, restlessness, and sleeplessness as a result. I’ve been devastated by the level of vitriol, lack of charity, and incivility (and that’s putting it mildly) that has been passing for dialogue in the Catholic blogosphere and online communities in the last weeks (although I believe that’s been a problem right along, unfortunately). I managed to participate in 2/3 of the Triduum last weekend, Holy Thursday and Good Friday but could not celebrate Easter knowing that some of the same folks who’ve been involved in these discussions would be at church too. I hit my limit with some of the most vitriolic and anti-Semitic remarks on another Catholic site and just left my computer for the weekend. The irony of knowing that the date of Easter week this year coincided with the historic dates of the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising made such remarks intolerable.
Abuse is wrong. I don’t care who does it. For me as a parent, it’s very simple. I talk with my children. I pay attention to what’s going on with them. If anyone – family, teacher, coach, clergy, neighbor – anyone were to abuse them, my response would be simple: call the police, take my child to the doctor or hospital for treatment and evidence collection, if necessary and appropriate, and prosecute the offender. Since in my state, sex offenders are required to register for life, I’d make sure that happened.
So, Klaire, I respect your right to disagree with me, even to be offended that I challenged you. And, yes, you and the many folks who feel that people like me just have it out for the church can have the last word. That’s fine. It’s my church too, or at least it was… I’m having problems recognizing it these days, with all I’ve seen written these last weeks. I follow a wide range of blogs with varying perspectives of the church and the Catholic faith. With the exception of a very small minority, the general response has been to circle the wagons and defend the institution right or wrong. I understand that response, and have done it myself in the past. It’s just far too much now. This story has been unfolding now in a public fashion since 1985 and it still shows no signs of hitting bottom. I am grateful that at least my local community is a blessing and haven at this time for my family. I am also grateful that Christ is not limited by the church, even as He still chooses to work through it and even despite it.
So, please have your last word. I take my leave of this discussion and this blog. I am just so very, very sad at what this has come to and the response of the church hierarchy and some of its laity. It breaks my heart.



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Holy Cannoli

posted April 9, 2010 at 11:03 am


Klaire
You’re a solid poster. Although I’m not familiar with the other individuals you mentioned, I’d give them the benefit of the doubt and say that they are also solid posters and strong Catholics. Especially after this thread, we knew what you were talking about and I’d call their take on what you wrote a misunderstanding within the family.
—————————————————–
oldestof9
>>> the story WAS evil.
>>> ….but this blog; these posts remind me of that book.
For heaven’s sake, grow up and stop watching Oprah.
———————————————-
Mike
>>>You lot are Satanic.
I’m sending my brother, Unholy Cannoli, to drag you down to the lake o’ fire tonight just after you fall asleep.
————————————————
Paul
>>> Walk with your shoulders high and you head higher. Be a proud member of the most important non-governmental agency in the United States.
Hear! Hear! Very inspirational.
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Todd
>>>The media focuses on the Church for a few reasons:
You missed the 2 biggest reasons. The media elites are pro-abortion and pro-homosexual anything you want. The biggest target in the world that opposes their obvious Leftist agenda is the Catholic Church that values unborn life and prohibits not only “homosexual marriage” but, as you know, homosexual relations of any kind.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36199052/ns/world_news-europe/
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hlvanburen
It would serve you well to read prior posts especially the post from Mr. Big who first posted this story. That way you wouldn’t look so out of touch and make irrelevant posts which do not deal with the thread in question.
>>>The point, which perhaps I did not make clear enough for you, is that the media is focusing like a laser beam on the Catholic Church, and using the sex abuse scandals to bludgeon the hierarchy, celibacy, the all-male priesthood, you name it. People then conclude, well, it must be a Catholic problem, they gotta get rid of that ridiculous old celibacy rule and let women become priests, and that will solve everything.
Deacon K
——————————————————–
kenneth
>>>Well, as long as the buggery rate is within “normal” we can all move along, folks.
Kenneth you poor, poor child.
That’s not the subject of this thread and if you are not a H.S. sophomore, or someone suffering with “arrested development, or simply trying to be a jerk, then you should have, by now, been aware of it.
>>>The point, which perhaps I did not make clear enough for you, is that the media is focusing like a laser beam on the Catholic Church, and using the sex abuse scandals to bludgeon the hierarchy, celibacy, the all-male priesthood, you name it. People then conclude, well, it must be a Catholic problem, they gotta get rid of that ridiculous old celibacy rule and let women become priests, and that will solve everything.
Deacon K



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Anderson

posted April 9, 2010 at 11:13 am


Sexual abuse certainly is not just a Catholic problem. But how the church has responded to abuse—protecting abusers and failing to protect victims—is very much a Catholic problem.



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 11:24 am


So, let me get this straight:
We all agree that all of these abuse cases by priests are horrific and evil, yes?
Yes.
We all agree that “even on child” being victimized by a priest is too many, yes?
Yes.
But daring to offer some statistics to counter the extremely destructive “all priests are pervs” narrative that has been promulgated in the press, daring to acknowledge that this is not merely a “Catholic” problem, but a global epidemic, that’s evil too? Because somehow if you mention the truth that abuse exists everywhere, and it is almost always poorly addressed, that’s “making excuses,” and “evil” too?
I think it’s “evil” to NOT talk about all the other children being abused by teachers, ministers, parents and so forth. Are they less deserving of attention because their predators are not priests? What about them? Why are they so easily left behind, as you shake your head and feel so good about yourselves because alllll of your focus, and allllll of your compassion is focused on the victims of the priests. And not on the millions of other children, whose perps are not so interesting. And compassion for the innocent priests tarred by all of this? No, you have none at all for them, do you.
Selective compassion. What a concept.



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 11:28 am


Anderson…yes, how the church responded IN THE PAST is a unique and terrible problem.
But are you even aware of all the strictures that have been put in place and how effective they have been over the past 5 years?
No, you’re probably not. Because the press doesn’t talk about THAT.
THAT is also a problem. Getting people to acknowledge the improvements is difficult when they don’t want to know about them, or the press won’t talk about them.
If you refuse to acknowledge when the church has done the right thing, then all you’re doing is giving evidence that you like the other story better.



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Panthera

posted April 9, 2010 at 11:56 am


I never, not once said or even implied that I found sexual abuse and rape to be OK, as long as they are committed by non-Catholic priests. The abuse, much less the rape, of anyone is evil.
It is truly distressing to see the manner in which many Catholics are trying to use these rapes to advocate for their false position that homosexuality is the same thing as paedophilia. People who prey on children are not doing so because of their sexual orientation, rape has nothing to do with one’s sexual orientation. It has everything to do with mental illness.
After reading the comments here and in the other related threads, it is obvious that the rapes of girls really are being discounted for the express purpose of trying to arouse the public towards pograms against gays.
Look, you conservative Catholics are entitled to your hateful prejudices against gays. When, however, you began trying to impose your hate-filled version of Christianity on the secular world, we had every right to defend ourselves.
Had the Catholic church come clean about this problem and cooperated with legal authorities in the prosecution of the rapists, none of these children who, in ever increasing numbers, are today reporting their rape would have had to suffer what they did. The effrontery of all of you here who dare to tell the rest of us – Christians and non-Christians to go away because it is your own little “Catholic” problem and none of our business is sickening.
I will continue to point out, at every opportunity the sickness which lies at the very core of the Catholic church until the day comes when you finally apologize to your rape victims, turn the rapists over to the police, turn their enablers over to the police and make every possible restitution for a transgression which really can’t be healed.
Every single one of you defending the Catholic church here will have to answer to God for your blind obedience and false loyalty to those who rape our children.



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hlvanburen

posted April 9, 2010 at 12:02 pm


“THAT is also a problem. Getting people to acknowledge the improvements is difficult when they don’t want to know about them, or the press won’t talk about them.”
You are overlooking the fact that for many, many years the Catholic Church fought tooth and nail to keep the facts of these “old cases” from coming to light. Just recently several cases across the nation have reached a point where the defending diocese was finally, after much prodding and poking, forced to release paperwork from the past 30-50 years on these cases.
It is difficult to take seriously your claims that the media is ignoring the good that the Church has done in this area when you will not acknowledge that the sludge that has been building up for the past few decades is finally being released, thousands of pages at a time.
Couple that with the revelations that are arriving on an almost weekly basis of the abuse done by priests in other nations and it is no wonder that the media, and the public are focusing on this.
This is the price of covering up the sins of a few generations of priests and bishops within your Church. When the dam finally breaks and it all starts hitting the press, this is bound to happen.
Perhaps the proper place for you to complain is to the Church hierarchy which, for so many years, steadfastly resisted coming clean about its past practices.
Yes, the Church has done and is doing much to improve the way that children are protected in your facilities. But with more and more evidence coming forth as to just how bad things were in the past, please forgive us if we are a bit preoccupied with that and ignore, for the time being, your protestations of how good things are now.



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Your Name

posted April 9, 2010 at 12:33 pm


Deacon Greg,
I haven’t seen anyone who has addressed the spiritual mystery of the sacrament of Holy Orders in which a holy priest will be a source of much grace and will draw many to conversion through the mystery of this sacrament. It is extremely powerful and those who live the holiness of this sacrament are accepted by the general population as holy men.
The opposite is also true in the powerful harmful spiritual effects of the sacrament when evil is committed by the priest. I cannot understand why there isn’t someone who can address this. We live a spiritual existence.
JPII wrote about this “This is the other aspect of that solidarity which is developed in the profound and magnificent mystery of the Communion of Saints….that every soul that rises above itself, raises up the world…this law of ascent..unfortunately corresponds the law of descent…a communion of sin, whereby a soul that lowers itself through sin drags down with itself the Church and, in some way, the whole world…With greater or lesser violence, with greater or less harm, every sin has repercussions on the entire ecclesial body and the whole human family.”
This is why the MSM is responding so intensely, however, they do not know this spiritual dynamic is the source of their reaction and, evidently the Church hierarchy does not know this either.
Unbelievable.



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 12:39 pm


“Every single one of you defending the Catholic church here will have to answer to God for your blind obedience and false loyalty to those who rape our children.”
Still feeling good about yourself as you ignore the fact that the reforms put in place are working. Still accusing people who dare to acknowledge that the past is not the present of supporting rapists.
You’re so dishonest.



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Dana MacKenzie

posted April 9, 2010 at 12:41 pm


“You are overlooking the fact that for many, many years the Catholic Church fought tooth and nail to keep the facts of these “old cases” from coming to light. Just recently several cases across the nation have reached a point where the defending diocese was finally, after much prodding and poking, forced to release paperwork from the past 30-50 years on these cases.’
Yeah. Because that’s in the past. You want to accuse me of not paying enough attention to the past – which we cannot change – and I am accusing you of not paying enough attention to THE PRESENT, where things have changed and are continuing to change.
Like I said, you must LIKE the story from the past. That’s the one that makes you feel so good about yourself, in your comfy self-righteousness.



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Panthera

posted April 9, 2010 at 1:24 pm


quote:
Dana MacKenzie
April 9, 2010 12:39 PM
“Every single one of you defending the Catholic church here will have to answer to God for your blind obedience and false loyalty to those who rape our children.”
Still feeling good about yourself as you ignore the fact that the reforms put in place are working. Still accusing people who dare to acknowledge that the past is not the present of supporting rapists.
You’re so dishonest.
endquote
First, Dana, the “past” is very much still present for all the victims of Catholic priests who raped them. Who forced the girls to get abortions.
Second, these rapes are still ongoing. We all have read about the situation for Sisters in Africa. Or, are you going to pretend they’re making that up, too?
Third, as long as so many – not all – but those in power in the Catholic church continue to spread the lie that child predators are gay and gays are disordered, dangerous to the family, etc. you and your church will not ever be acting Christ like.
It will be “over”, to the extent the rape of children can ever be over, when the Catholic church has come clean, countless priests are in prison, their enablers (including their confessors who are not coming forward) are in prison or heavily, heavily fined and the Catholic church has made the best possible efforts at restitution to those she raped. When, and only, when the Catholic church has done all of that will I be willing to consider that she has truly learned from this and repented from her evil ways.
Until then, do, please keep on spewing the hatred, the lies and the defense of the indefensible. Do keep placing the blame on gays. It worked so very well for the Catholic church in the Naz i era, maybe it will work for you now, too.
Just – while continuing to do that – remember two things. One, your church has and is raping children. Two, God, who notes every feather of every sparrow, knows your heart.



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Curious

posted April 9, 2010 at 1:55 pm


I am amazed at this moral outrage from people who are so out of touch with the morals proclaimed by the Judeo-Christian ethic. When I see this outrage directed at all abusers in every family, institution and denomination I will pay attention.



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Ronald King

posted April 9, 2010 at 1:56 pm


Deacon Greg, I forgot to put my name in the 12:33 comment. It is addressed to you.



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Dave

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:02 pm


Sexual abuse is evil. The evil is greater when the abuser is a member of the Catholic clergy. The Shepard had performed that evil on the smallest of his flock. But the greater evil is when the Shepard is protected and allowed repeatedly to commit sexual abuse.
The integrity of the Church is damaged when its leadership protects evil, as it institutionally has done. Integrity is difficult to recover and can not be recovered quickly. The institution of the Church deserves close scrutiny and should and will receive it from both the media and the laity.
We believe! The core of our belief is love, love of God and love of our neighbor. The protection of evil is the opposite of the love we should proclaim. The Church has acknowledged its error in putting the institution of the Church above the care and love of the smallest of the flock. We hold ourselves to a higher standard and must now live up to that standard and slowly regain our integrity.



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Holy Cannoli

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:12 pm


>>>blame on gays.
Your sick little game of diversion is over, Sunshine. The Vatican is leading and, before long, I expect that even the lavender appeases within the USCCB will have the courage to finally speak the truth.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/36199052/ns/world_news-europe/
Homosexuals prey on children.
* 33% of homosexuals ADMIT to minor/adult sex (7)
* There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States
* Homosexuals commit more than 33% of all reported child molestations in the United States, which, assuming homosexuals make up 2% of the population, means that 1 in 20 homosexuals is a child molestor, while 1 in 490 heterosexuals is a child molestor (19)
* 73% of all homosexuals have had sex with boys under 19 years of age (9)
* Many homosexuals admit that they are pedophiles: “The love between men and boys is at the foundation of homosexuality” (22)
* Because homosexuals can’t reproduce naturally, they resort to recruiting children. Homosexuals can be heard chanting “TEN PERCENT IS NOT ENOUGH, RECRUIT, RECRUIT, RECRUIT” in their homosexual parades. A group called the “Lesbian Avengers” prides itself on trying to recruit young girls. They print “WE RECRUIT” on their literature. Some other homosexuals aren’t as overt about this, but rather try to infiltrate society and get into positions where they will have access to the malleable minds of young children (e.g., the clergy, teachers, Boy Scout leaders, etc.) (8). See the DC Lesbian Avengers web page, and DC Lesbian Avengers Press Release, where they threaten to recruit little boys and girls. Also, see AFA Action Alert.
Speaking of Courage…
http://couragerc.net/



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Your Name

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:12 pm


Panthera writes “Just – while continuing to do that – remember two things. One, your church has and is raping children. Two, God, who notes every feather of every sparrow, knows your heart.”
No the “church” does not rape children any more than the United States, or the Congo, or the FBI or the public schools, or the FBI, or the Rotary Club, or the Masons, or the Toast Masters rapes children.
To say anything else if a total lie.
People rape “children”.
Children according to law are people between the ages of 1 minute to 17 years and 364 days old.
By this definition about 40 million americans were raped as a child. And the Church, the FBI, the Rotary Club, the Masons, the Pentagon, the Toast Masters, etc did not rape a single “child”. It was persons who raped about 12 percent of the American adult population.



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Gerard Nadal

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:33 pm


Deacon Greg,
God Bless you for condemning the indefensible and defending the bulk of our clergy who are honest men. Most especially, thank you for calling attention to the child victims who languish elsewhere because of the laser focus on Rome. I’m running my son to speech therapy, but will comment more later.
Panthera,
Happy Easter to you! I’ve been wondering how you have been. Well, I trust!?



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panthera

posted April 9, 2010 at 2:35 pm


quote:
Your Name
April 9, 2010 2:12 PM
Panthera writes “Just – while continuing to do that – remember two things. One, your church has and is raping children. Two, God, who notes every feather of every sparrow, knows your heart.”
No the “church” does not rape children any more than the United States, or the Congo, or the FBI or the public schools, or the FBI, or the Rotary Club, or the Masons, or the Toast Masters rapes children.
To say anything else if a total lie.
People rape “children”.
Children according to law are people between the ages of 1 minute to 17 years and 364 days old.
By this definition about 40 million americans were raped as a child. And the Church, the FBI, the Rotary Club, the Masons, the Pentagon, the Toast Masters, etc did not rape a single “child”. It was persons who raped about 12 percent of the American adult population.
end quote
Oh, your name, do you really want to go there? Do we really want to split hairs? You know perfectly well what is meant.
But hey, push it hard enough and you may just get exactly what you asked for. It isn’t libel to name names of those priests found guilt of unspeakable acts…we can name names if you’d rather.
Really, why are you conservative Catholics trying to excuse your behavior with the school yard excuse: “But Johnny did it, too!”



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:11 pm


“* There is a notable homosexual group, consisting of thousands of members, known as the North American Man and Boy Love Association ( NAMBLA). This is a child molesting homosexual group whose cry is “SEX BEFORE 8 BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE.” This group can be seen marching in most major homosexual parades across the United States”
LOL…what, you are jealous because they compete with Catholic churches for the youngsters in town?



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:16 pm


“The Vatican is leading and, before long, I expect that even the lavender appeases within the USCCB will have the courage to finally speak the truth.”
You just keep right on drinking that Kool-aid. That shiny new Cardinal out in LA may want to look over his shoulder.
http://www.courthousenews.com/2010/04/09/26278.htm
“SAN ANTONIO (CN) – A man claims a Catholic priest sodomized him at gunpoint, demanded oral sex, threatened to kill his family if he talked about it, and threatened to kill him and “then kill himself so they could be in heaven together.” The man says this all happened in 2008, when he was 16, and that the priest who did it, John M. Fiala, was supervised by San Antonio Archbishop Jose Gomez. The pope this week nominated Gomez to be the next archbishop of Los Angeles.
The John Doe plaintiff sued the Archdiocese of San Antonio, Archbishop Gomez, and Gomez’s predecessors and successors.
The man says Fiala was assigned to the San Antonio Archdiocese in 2004, and that already by then the “Archdiocese knew or should have know that Fiala was engaging in forbidden sexual contact”.
He claims that Fiala previously had worked in the dioceses of Corpus Christi, Omaha, and Kansas City, Mo., “with intermittent absences due to ‘leaves.'”
Doe says he met Fiala in 2007, and that soon Fiala “lavished expensive gifts on [him], including an expensive laptop computer, cell phone, an MP3 player and money and, later, a car. He bought and provided alcohol to Doe”.
In early 2008, Doe says, “under the pretext of giving [him] private catechism classes,” Fiala began sexually molesting him “once or twice a month,” including “on church grounds.”
In January 2008, Doe says, on the pretext of taking him to a “youth event” in San Angelo, Fiala took him to a Motel 6 there, held him “at gun point [and] anally raped the boy, anally penetrating him. Father Fiala threatened Doe I, saying, ‘If you tell anyone what happened, I will hurt you and your family.’ In February, Fiala assaulted the boy again, including anal penetration on a similar trip.”
Next, Doe says, Fiala bought him a Chrysler Sebring. “When the car needed some work, Doe I went to the rectory and Fiala gave him $80 for repairs, saying Doe I had to perform oral sex to get the keys. The boy complied at the priest’s room in the rectory,” the complaint states.
Then Fiala began to send him text messages “daily,” Doe says.
“When Doe I ignored the texts, Fiala threatened to kill the boy, saying he would then kill himself so they could be in heaven together,” according to the complaint.
Doe says Fiala arranged another meeting, where he “pulled a revolver on the boy and forced Doe I to perform fellatio on the priest. This occurred in August 2008.”
Doe says, “Finally, unable to take it anymore, Doe I ran away from home and eventually tried to commit suicide.”
He says his school counselor finally reported the abuse to authorities.
Doe says the injuries he suffered from Fiala were foreseeable, and that the San Antonio Archdiocese, like other archdioceses, concealed the crimes from the public. He says the archdiocese failed to report them to police, but conspired to cover them up, by “spiriting clerics out of dioceses” after they were accused of abuses, “to evade probably criminal prosecution of priest-perpetrators and the possible filing of civil claims by their victims.”
Doe seeks punitive damages for conspiracy, negligence, sexual exploitation, and criminal complicity. He is represented by Tahira Khan Merritt of Dallas and J. Thomas Rhodes of Dallas.
Gomez was archbishop of San Antonio from 2004 on, and became coadjutor archbishop of Los Angeles this week when Pope John Paul appointed him.
Gomez is a member of Opus Dei, a radically conservative personal prelature. ”
Yep…looks to me like all that abuse is in the past.



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blueenigma

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:21 pm


Blaming gays is not a defense that will hold up in a court of law. Sexual abusing minors is a crime, orientation isn’t. Moreover, it doesn’t explain much less justify cover-ups, transferring offending priests from one parish to another, & silencing victims. That’s untenable.



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:24 pm


“Moreover, it doesn’t explain much less justify cover-ups, transferring offending priests from one parish to another, & silencing victims. That’s untenable.”
But it’s typical of corrupt organizations to find scapegoats and avoid taking responsibility.
Perhaps somewhere in this flood of documents that are finally coming out a good attorney will find a way to use the RICO statutes to go after the whole nest of vipers.



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cathyf

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:50 pm


However, my Christian faith centers on Christ and no one and on thing else. This is a fact and has helped me tremendously in not only dealing with the scandal but by more effectively developing my spiritual life.

Yeah, I’m with ya’, HC, but it’s a place I’m a little afraid to go.
If you listen to the more unhinged criticisms of the hierarchy (like from my mother-in-law *sigh*) they come down to more or less the same accusation: that the bishops did not use their magical powers to protect the victims. That’s a fairly easy thing to defend the bishops for — but it leads us straight into the Problem of Evil. God is all-knowing and all-powerful. God knows, with total certainty and great specificity, exactly who is telling the truth and who is lying. He has jurisdiction over everything and no statute of limitations and answers to no one but Himself. He could have fixed this, prevented this, in any of a number of ways…



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cathyf

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:53 pm


Ok, there is something very strange about beliefnet’s posting software. It just re-posted something from yesterday, instead of what I just wrote. Trying again…
I’m actually beginning to wonder if this latest campaign isn’t a skillful (and astonishingly successful) smoke screen. Look, Benedict has been fighting the vatican to clean out the “filth” for a decade now, and there are those who are still fighting back.
A very interesting question of timing (at least to me). From Jason Berry’s article about Marciel Maciel and the Legion of Christ

Maciel left a trail of wreckage among his followers. Moreover, in a gilded irony for Benedict — who prosecuted him despite pressure from Maciel’s chief supporter, Cardinal Angelo Sodano, Vatican secretary of state from 1990 to 2006 — Maciel left an ecclesiastical empire with which the church must now contend. The Italian newsweekly L’espresso estimates the Legion’s assets at 25 billion euros, with a $650 million annual budget, according to The Wall Street Journal .The order numbered 700 priests and 1,300 seminarians in 2008. On March 15 of this year, five bishops, called visitators, from as many countries, delivered their reports to the pope after a seven-month investigation. A final report is expected by the end of April.

Interesting timing… March 15… End of April… The Legion is fighting for its life, and only under this pope was Maciel ever punished. Carlos Slim, a big-time supporter of Legion schools, owns a chunk of the New York Times, and basically saved the Times from bankruptcy last year. And so now the Times has launched a campaign against the pope right this very instant in the weeks between the submission of the report, and the decision about what to do about the Legion.
The decision that the pope faces right now at this very moment (not some decision decades back) is whether the Legion is salvageable or not. On the one side there are those who are arguing that Maciel was the “perfect hypocrite”. That although he buggered seminarians (proven is “more than 20, less than 100″) starting from the founding of the order in 1941, although he had at least 2 families with 2 different women, although he has been accused of molesting two of his own sons when they were 7 or 8, although he stole millions of dollars from the coffers of the organization, much of it to lard down “charitable donations” to church officials who could — and did — protect him from punishment until Benedict became pope, even though he did all that and more, his teachings, the order’s rules and practices — his legacy — are fundamentally sound. On the other side are those who believe that the Legion is not salvageable, and, among other things, wonder if there are other corrupt perverts who found the Legion a comfortable shelter, who are even to this day committing abuses on current victims.
So, in my mind, the questions are this: Has the New York Times weakened the pope enough that he cannot mop up the corruption of the Legion? Is the Legion corrupt enough even after Maciel’s death that there is abuse going on right now that Benedict will not be able to end? Is everyone at the Times an unwitting dupe, or are there some who realize that they are being used by the Mexicans to prevent the pope from cleaning out “the filth”? Do any of the baying hyena’s demanding Benedict’s resignation realize that they personally might be just as much an accessory to horrific crimes as those long-ago bishops who shuffled pervert priests around?
If you think that the argument here is “We’re really no worse than the rest of society,” you’ve been fooled by the slight-of-hand. The argument that the New York Times is making is “Sodano and all of the other vatican brass who took fat envelopes of cash to look the other way while Maciel lived a life of utter depravity for decades are really no worse than Pope Benedict.”



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 3:56 pm


“God knows, with total certainty and great specificity, exactly who is telling the truth and who is lying.”
Well, he ought to! He allowed it to happen.



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 4:09 pm


An interesting theory, cathyf. Also at least as plausible is the idea that Benedict, once he obtained sufficient power, decided to go after Maciel and his crew not necessarily to clean up the abuse but, instead, to go after the assets of the order. Such an injection of liquid assets would help the Church at a time when diocese offices in the US were declaring bankruptcy to deal with the losses from civil damage settlements.
Bringing that much money back under the direct control of the Vatican is a nice boost to the coffers in a time of general economic downturn coupled with empty offering plates and large settlements.



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 4:27 pm


Well, today’s installment of the Scandal looks to be yet more info on (then) Cardinal Ratzinger, what he knew and what he DIDN’T do. And this one from a conservative source, no less…Breitbart. Of course some will insist that this is STILL the NY Times fault.
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9EVMF301&show_article=1
AP EXCLUSIVE: Future pope stalled pedophile case
Apr 9 01:44 PM US/Eastern
By GILLIAN FLACCUS
Associated Press Writer
This Friday, April 9, 2010 photo shows a 1985 letter obtained by the Associ…
LOS ANGELES (AP) – The future Pope Benedict XVI resisted pleas to defrock a California priest with a record of sexually molesting children, citing concerns including “the good of the universal church,” according to a 1985 letter bearing his signature.
The correspondence, obtained by The Associated Press, is the strongest challenge yet to the Vatican’s insistence that Benedict played no role in blocking the removal of pedophile priests during his years as head of the Catholic Church’s doctrinal watchdog office.
The letter, signed by then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, was typed in Latin and is part of years of correspondence between the Diocese of Oakland and the Vatican about the proposed defrocking of the Rev. Stephen Kiesle.
The Vatican refused to comment on the contents of the letter Friday, but a spokesman confirmed it bore Ratzinger’s signature.
Quick, folks! Go get your talking points from the Vatican on this latest one!



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panthera

posted April 9, 2010 at 5:06 pm


I speak and read German fluently, including the dialect the Pope’s elder brother speaks.
When asked a few years back whether his brother should be Pope, he very directly said, “nee, wirklich ned”. His brother was a brilliant thinker but not good with people.
This is the closest I am going to come to allowing that the Vatican might not be responding to these atrocities exclusively out of evilness.
I stopped by the counseling center of my university this afternoon. They sat up a hot-line and no-appointment needed service for students a few weeks back when they atrocities came to public notice in a neighboring country. To my absolute horror, our resident doctor told me they’d had over ten students in the last two days alone – back from the Easter break which somehow prodded them into confronting their abuse.
That’s just one faculty at one tiny college at one small university in a small town in the middle of Europe – over ten students in two days.
The fury which the Catholic church has unleashed and is now trying to deflect onto gays is not going to be pretty. Wouldn’t it be better for you all to focus on the truth instead of trying to scapegoat gays and punish the victims?



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Your Name

posted April 9, 2010 at 6:26 pm


Yes, those “repressed memories”. How many have been falsely accused because of them. Ask Roseann Barr’s parents.



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ds0490

posted April 9, 2010 at 7:08 pm


“Yes, those “repressed memories”. How many have been falsely accused because of them. Ask Roseann Barr’s parents.”
Yeah…you know how unreliable folks are when they are recalling events 10, 20, 30 or 50 years ago, especially when they are emotional events. A lot of distortion can come about.
Heck, I mean look at what happened to a son of a carpenter some 20 centuries ago. Fifty years later folks are saying he rose from the dead.
Yep…I agree. You can’t trust these memories from that long ago.



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Your Name

posted April 9, 2010 at 7:36 pm


The more money they think they can squeeze out the more reliable those memories become.



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panthera

posted April 10, 2010 at 5:25 am


quote:
Your Name
April 9, 2010 7:36 PM
The more money they think they can squeeze out the more reliable those memories become.
end quote
Wow. I think we’ve just hit a new high (low?) in the competition to see who can most viscously blame the victim.
It’s interesting. On the one hand, we have all you conservative Catholics saying my monogamous marriage is a union of gravely disordered men while on the other hand…well, that other hand is either up the nearest young girl’s dress or down the nearest boy’s pants.
Inexcusable. With each passing day, the Catholic church fails to turn the rapists over to the police and continues her attempts to blame the victims, teh gayz, the Masons (can’t forget them, now, can we?) and people who support a woman’s right to chose, her moral authority continues to diminish.
Blame the victim, right, well – it worked so well for you when it came to the Jews, I guess you might as well keep playing that card now.
This is the fruit the Catholic church has come to bear since the “unexpected” death of Roncalli. You’ve sown and now you are reaping.



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panthera

posted April 10, 2010 at 5:30 am


Sorry, make “viscously” “viciously”.
The hatred of the victims remains. Unbelievable.



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Your Name

posted April 10, 2010 at 10:58 pm


panthera and Your Name (of April 9),
I think you both are competing for new lows … Your Name in blaming victims and panthera in condemning the entire Church for the crimes of some of her priests. Neither remark helps the conversation. But, then again, that may not have been the point for either of you.
Your Name: the fact is most victims of child abuse never come forward in the first place. I didn’t. My sisters didn’t. My nephew didn’t. We were abused by family members, not priests. We kept it quiet to protect our mothers and daughters. I believe strongly that the multi-million dollar compensations are grossly unjust, since they impact hundreds or thousands of innocents in lost jobs or services, with only a small portion going to the victims and most of the huge settlements demanded by attorneys. Some restitution is warrented, of course, but none would be coming at all if the attorneys didn’t have hopes for getting rich. Consider the fact that most children abused by teachers are never compenstated because the states limit the financial compensation available, so attorneys aren’t interested in taking their cases. But, this isn’t the victims fault. False accusations are another story, of course, but true victims of rape hate the liars more than anyone because it hurts their cause for education and justice.
panthera, you and many others wilfully ignore the reality of the scandal and the progress the Church has made in dealing with the problem. Truth be told, I think nothing will satisfy you except the destruction of the Church. In your mind, as well as others, anyone who attempts to weigh in with perspective on this matter is only defending the Church against the indefensible and hurting the victims more. There is simply nothing the Church can do to fix this. It is corrupt to the core, complicit in crimes against all humanity, including the murder of Pope John XXIII.
I would recommend that you both probably have better things to do with your time, but maybe I would be wrong. Hopefully, no one here or anywhere else will be influenced by your vitriol and bigotry.



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Frank

posted April 10, 2010 at 11:06 pm


The Church condemns itself to Hell by aiding and abetting criminals, attacking victims, and scapegoating those who have done nothing wrong.
“Your Name” it’s absolutely beyond the pale that you would call Panthera a bigot, when half those here would sooner see their children dead than gay or bisexual. You don’t know what bigotry is.



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BobRN

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:29 am


Not sure what I’m doing wrong here, but the above “Your Name” post of April 10 @ 10:50pm belongs to me.
Frank, you have no basis at all for your statement that “half those here would sooner see their children dead than gay or bisexual” except your own apparent stereotypical pattern for labeling those who disagree with you.
Panthera’s post of April 9, 7:36 is a blatant and bigoted anti-Catholic rant. If you can’t see that, it’s only because of your own blindness, not mine.



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panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:37 am


Your Name (of April 10, 2010 10:58 PM)
I regret that you and so many others have been abused. You raise several salient points to the discussion and I will try to address them.
you said:
panthera, you and many others willfully ignore the reality of the scandal and the progress the Church has made in dealing with the problem.
end quote
Frankly, I am less concerned about the “scandalous” nature of the matter than I am with the damage done to the victims.
Progress? Your Name, I read Latin, thank you. While many conservative Catholics here have been blaming the NY-Times for Ratzinger’s letters, I have been reading them. That’s not progress, that is delay. If the church is, only now, finally pretending to do something, than only because it is better than to actually do what must be done: To require of every priest who committed these crimes, of every confessor who knew of these crimes to come forward and submit to secular criminal justice.
That is what I consider to be progress. Anything less is playing games.
You wrote:
Truth be told, I think nothing will satisfy you except the destruction of the Church.
end quote
I’ve read and contributed to thread and discussions here on beliefnet for many years. Never mind the vitriol written just these last few weeks towards, those of us who see the evil in this church – the conservative Catholics here have consistently told me:
I am not a Christian.
My marriage does not exist.
My husband and I are going to hell and good so.
We are sick. We are perverted. We should be forcibly separated. His medical license and my teaching license should be shredded. We deserved to have been beaten. We will die of Aids (we are negative) and good so. We won’t live to be 40 (I can barely remember what it was like to have been 40). I could go on, and on and on…
So, no, I see nothing of good in the Catholic church herself. She is dedicated to stripping me of my civil and human rights where I enjoy them and preventing me from enjoying them in the US by furthering their unconstitutional denial.
You wrote:
In your mind, as well as others, anyone who attempts to weigh in with perspective on this matter is only defending the Church against the indefensible and hurting the victims more. There is simply nothing the Church can do to fix this.
end quote
If you take a look at the hatred directed at me and others here and elsewhere on beliefnet who dare to say the church bears direct complicity here, then, if you are honest, you will see why I feel that way.
The attacks begin with “you are not a Catholic, so this is none of your business” extend through “because you are gay you have no moral grounds” embrace hair-splitting and pseudo-arguments based on faulty logic and poor rhetoric “the Church can’t rape – she is an institution” and end with the most vile of all possible statements: “you are not a Christian, gays can’t be Christians” or “only Catholics are true Christians”. All of these have been said to me and others here the last weeks.
The express and direct policy of both Benedict and the church has been to ignore the girls, blame the boys themselves, pretend that statutory rape is really gay sex and, otherwise, blame all of this on homosexuals.
What possible other response can there be except for those of us who want to see the rape stopped except to stand up and fight back against these lies and misdirections? We are now seeing more and more women coming forward, medical, forensic and police authorities are united in stating that sexual orientation has nothing to do with sexual abuse and rape, whether of girls or boys.
In today’s world, these topics disappear from view very quickly unless one keeps the pressure on. Were we to let up, the church would quickly sink back into her perverted ways. When someone here says that priests and confessors must be prosecuted by civil authorities, we are screamed at that the church is the proper venue, not the civil courts. This would be the church which has committed the rapes…and she should decide what to do about it? Set the restitution for the victims?
There is quite a lot the church can do about this and, frankly, the fact that she first paid victims millions of dollars to keep quiet shows her complicity. How evil!
No, there is no good solution to be offered to the victims. That is why rape is such a grave offense. There is one thing the church can and must do: Never rape again.
You wrote:
There is simply nothing the Church can do to fix this. It is corrupt to the core, complicit in crimes against all humanity, including the murder of Pope John XXIII.
end quote
Well, if the church were to do something to fix it instead of trying to blame it on homosexuals, ignoring the girls and otherwise blaming the victims, then I would be pleased. She has done nothing. I see no priests being turned over to the authorities, no confessors coming forward.
Yes, the church is corrupt to the core. I have no idea whether, at this point, anything can be done.
The error is, I fear, endemic to the core of the Church – the belief that she, and she alone, knows God’s will. There is no way I shall ever accept that it is God’s will that children be raped.



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panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 5:01 am


BobRN,
I can quote several people here who have said exactly what Frank maintains. Even some commenators – Erin Manning for one – have directly stated that it is better for children to be homeless on the street than to be raised in a loving family of two gay men.
A tremendous amount of the fury which is being directed towards the Catholic church right now is simply because there is something inside normal people which causes us to go absolutely ballistic when we see a child abused.
Much of the fury is also driven by the lies and injustice of the Catholic church using this as an opportunity to further her war against gays.
There is not one single, solitary serious medical, psychiatric, legal or didactic body which agrees with the Catholic church that homosexuality has anything to do with raping children. Not one. In fact, the only “authorities” who state otherwise are non-certified or disbarred from professional medical groups – or members of the Catholic church.
BobRN, we had weeks of vitriolic discussions here three years ago (not on this blog, here at beliefnet) with conservative Catholics doing there very best to insist that the Catholic church never once denied the sol-centric view of the solar system and Galileo was up on totally different charges! No matter how many documents I produced, even in the original Latin and German, they refused to even consider the Catholic church has ever been in error.
It’s the same with homosexuality. We are under attack and the Catholic church is trying hard to use us as scapegoats. I can produce many, many documents proving she did the same thing towards the Jews during the Na zi era. Shall I?
A final cause of this fury is simply the fact that this has been ongoing in the background for so very many decades. Thinking back, I can remember taking in the children of some friends here in Europe about 20 years ago. The dad had coffee with us while their mom was putting their stuff away in their wing. He explicitly told my husband and I: “Do not leave the oldest boy alone with the priest at any time.”
I really didn’t know what his objection was and when my Irish husband turned so white his freckles disappeared it only then dawned on me what on earth our friend meant. We were very careful to make sure the children in our charge were safe. Oh, in those days, gay couples were permitted to darken the door of Catholic churches…it was a brief renaissance of Christian charity which JPII was shortly to bring to an end.
The Catholic church has done good in the past. I think those of you here and elsewhere who are defending her against our “attacks” are not really doing much to further her defense. Our fury and our anger is based, not on Know-Nothing hatred of all “Papists” but on the rape of children and much injustice towards gays.
BobRN, the culture wars in the US have run long and deep since the late 1960s. They have culminated in a polarization which makes any discourse difficult. For the conservatives, one can not be gay and a Christian. For the conservatives, one can not support a woman’s right to chose and be a Christian. Quite a few conservative Christians (sadly, especially Catholics) have openly said one can not be a Catholic and support Obama.
I have no answers to that problem, as long as I am under attack from your side, however, the problem is not in the same class for me as questions such as “how many angels can dance on the head of a pin” but one of “how can I stop them from stripping me of further civil and human rights?”
Don’t forget, the many conservative Catholics supported and support the Uganda “Kill the Gays” bill. Several conservative Catholic organizations outright deleted parts of the bills text in order to pretend in their public statements that it did not call for what it does – death to all homosexuals. Your side has done some seriously bad things, especially recently. This makes it very tough for us to feel much charity for you.



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panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 5:03 am


BobRN,
One a side note – you aren’t doing anything wrong. This commentary system is the one thing we all agree on: It is from hell.
When you post and the system rejects your post for any reason, your name is often (not always, which is the maddening thing about it) stripped away.
I suggest you use another text editor to write your replies and only use this text box to paste them into.
This has been an ongoing problem here for several years and most of us regard it as not a bug, but a feature. For whatever reason, FAUX News wants it that way.



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Your Name

posted April 11, 2010 at 6:44 am


panthera,
You say that progress is incarcerating abusers. That’s fair enough. I would remind you, however, that even in cases where abusers were brought to the civil authorities, it rarely happens. Why? I don’t know. You’ll have to ask the civil authorities. But, the same is true for teachers, counselors, doctors, therapists, parents, etc… For some reason, it is rather rare for child abusers to spend time behind bars. The civil authorities are well aware by now of the priests who have been credibly accused and dismissed by the Church from ministry. Why are they not persued and incarcerated? I think your complaint here (and mine, too), for the most part, is with the police and judicial system. I would happily see every priest, bishop, sister, father, teacher, etc… who abused a child incarcerated.
What I mean by progress is fewer children being abused. In the mid-60s to mid-70s, there were dozens if not hundreds of credible accusations of abuse. Last year, 2009, there were six. If any other institution had achieved such progress in decreasing the number of children abused while under it’s care (the public schools, for instance), every one would be researching to see if their reforms could be implimented in their own institutions.
There is nothing in any of your recent posts to cause me to reconsider any else of what I posted on April 10 @ 10:58.



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BobRN

posted April 11, 2010 at 6:45 am


Sorry, again, the post for today at 6:44 belongs to me.



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panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 11:45 am


BobRn,
I guess it should be obvious by now that I split my time between the US and Europe. Just read a wonderful comment from one of the conservative Catholics on another thread informing me that nobody cares about any place but the US so my opinion is irrelevant.
You needn’t change your mind about anything and if there had been six cases alone in 2009 – as bad as even one case is – that would have been reason to see progress. There were, however, more than that in one church in a country not far from me, alone…so that number is just plain not valid.
The more nastiness I read from conservative Catholics “defending” the indefensible, the more clear it becomes that nothing is going to change unless we make it so expense and, through secular laws, so painful for you that you have to change.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 11:58 am


Could someone define conservative Catholic? Either you are Catholic or you are not.



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Frank

posted April 11, 2010 at 12:30 pm


Conservative,
“Conservative Catholic” is a euphemism for gay-hating, child-pimping, torture-endorsing, goose-stepping Christo-fascist scumbag. A conservative Catholic is the sort of person who would defend a pope who scapegoats gays as potential criminals while refusing to laicize a priest who ties up and rapes seven-year-olds (See http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/04/the-third-strike.html ) because the image and authority of the Church must be preserved at all costs. Hope that’s helpful.
But you are right about one thing. There is no longer a distinction between “Conservative Catholic” and “Catholic.” The right wing sociopaths and sexual sadists have control of the institution. Every rape of every minor enacts and celebrates the Church’s ruthless authoritarianism. Liberal Catholics and moderate Catholics aren’t even bit players in this pornographic passion play. They are powerless and will be for at least a century.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 1:13 pm


As a life-long Catholic, I never heard such a definition. It is so ludicrous. Either you accept the teachings of Christ and His Church or you don’t. If you don’t, you aren’t Catholic anyway. You sound like a real charmer Frank.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 1:51 pm


His church, Conservative?
Christ did not die for the Catholic church. He died for all our sins.
Given the sins of the priests of the Catholic church, is it understandable you might confuse the two.



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Frank

posted April 11, 2010 at 2:10 pm


Conservative,
I was a cradle Catholic. I went to Catholic high school and was treated as a pariah for befriending a student accused of being gay. Every day of his life there he was called “faggot.” Every day he was reviled and insulted in front of the priest but those priests weren’t man enough to defend this kid. I chose to befriend this student because no one deserved to be treated that way and I got treated exactly as he was. When I complained to the principal, he said I should deal with my own problems and that it would toughen me up. As you can see, it has. I’ve had cancer twice; growing up gay in a Catholic school was far worse. Fearing death is nowhere near as bad as wanting death.
More than a few of those priests were having sex with my classmates. One went steady with a red headed student. Outside of the classroom they were always seen together. Some priests broke the seal of the confessional to gossip about students they thought were gay. Some of the most anti-gay priests were and are pederasts. They seemed to think they were superior to gays, whom they treated as objects of ridicule or c*ck-fodder. I believe the assumption of superiority was their presumed dominance in a sexual behavior with adolescents.
Now you may say that pederasts are gay, but that’s not strictly the case. Father Marcial Maciel Degollado, founder of the Legionaires of Christ and Father James Porter molested boys and married. In fact Degollado liked married life so much that he was a bigamist. I think the motive of many pederasts is sexual satisfaction through dominance. I think Catholic authoritarianism nurtures and protects men like Degollado.
I didn’t sour on the Catholic Church until the Cardinal Ratzinger marked me and every other gay man as a potential child molester and said that society must discriminate against us to protect itself. All this happened in 1992, while I was celibate. I expected fellow Catholics to defend me, but they were willing to let gay Catholics, celibate or not, be thrown under the bus.
Now I find out that Cardinal Ratzinger has been protecting the rapists of children and adolescents all along while scapegoating gays. A letter has been published with Ratzinger’s signature making his guilt undeniable, but conservative Catholics defend him and condemn me as a potential criminal.
Well God Damn them.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 2:16 pm


Well put, Frank.
This is a very tried and true method of the catholic church – blame the victim, blame the Jews, blame the gays.
I finally understand why, in the eyes of conservative Catholics, my monogamous, faithful, loving marriage of now over 25 years to the same wonderful man is “disordered”.
They define “normal sex” as priests raping children.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 3:44 pm


I think I will get out my crying towel. This is better than the DaVinci Code or even the Young and the Restless.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 3:46 pm


Oh and by the way, yes, His Church. You know, “Upon this Rock, I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it”, this terrible Catholic Church is the one he founded not any other. Yes, he died for all even you and your sins.



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Frank

posted April 11, 2010 at 3:51 pm


Conservative, pray that God doesn’t give you cancer so that you have some standard by which to judge.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 3:58 pm


Conservative,
Sorry, but Jesus was a Jew. Pretending the Catholic church is His church and no other Christian church is truly Christian is absurd.
Jesus would never have agreed to the rape of children. You’re trying to avoid the whole problem through evasion. The Catholic church must stop raping children.
It’s that simple.



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Frank

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:19 pm


Panthera,
Conservative Catholic morality is a house of cards. Father James Porter, who raped about 200 boys and girls, wrote a letter of confession to Paul VI asking to be laicized. Porter was laicized but allowed to MARRY WITHIN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH to breed his own kids to molest.
In their eyes you have fewer rights than an admitted child rapist.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:29 pm


Sorry Panthera but I think Jesus made a break with Judaism. Any Christian church that exists stems from or broke from the one Jesus founded. They can’t trace their way back to the beginning. Sorry. You think Jesus founded all of them? Tell that to Henry VIII and Martin Luther. They were Catholics too until they couldnt take the heat. Henry, the paragon of virtue, balked when they wouldn’t give him a divorce. So please don’t lecture me about Catholicism. I know it better than you ever will. Look in your own backyard and maybe remove the plank out of your eye whatever “church” you belong to. Oh that’s found in the New Testament by the way.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:31 pm


Frank,
This is true.
Their hatred shows in their support for the Ugandan “Kill the Gays” bill, in the millions of dollars they have invested in every challenge to gays being recognized as fully human and entitled to civil rights in the US and in Europe.
It is totally sickening to see these perverted priests rape children and then blame the victims.
Reading through these threads, you see a common theme: We (the Catholic church) aren’t guilty. It is the Masons, it is the liberal Democrats, it is the gays. We even find reference to the Catholic church – which persecuted Jews for centuries and supported the Na zis – being treated like the Jews were in Germany during the 1930s!
Nothing has been learned, there is no desire, no willingness to admit wrongdoing. The only hope is to keep up the pressure and not let the Catholic church bury these rapes under a rock as they have so successfully done in the past.
This time, perhaps, the world-wide protest might be enough to finally compel change.
I think I’ve had just about enough of these sick, perverted “defenders of the faith” for awhile.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:49 pm


Birds of a feather flock together. When a liberal state like California defeated gay marriage they blamed the Mormons. Free speech is alright as long as it comes from the left. Sorry the blame game is over. As for persecuting the Jews, I don’t know what Jews you are talking to.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:51 pm


Well, can’t ignore that.
Conservative, one of the reasons the Catholic church has gotten herself into this horrible mess of raped children is the arrogance of her “defenders”.
I read Latin, German, Italian and – on good days – can even write in English. Although not my field, I minored in European history and am quite well aware of the political motivations behind Henry VIII’s break.
Given the current situation, your choice of Martin Luther did not exactly further your cause.
I am a Christian. My argument is not with Christianity, it is with a church which has a history of raping children. The last decades have seen the Catholic church become more and more involved in denying gays human rights, supporting our murder in Africa and stripping us of what few rights we have gained, wherever you could. Instead of focussing on removing the rapists from your midst, you have intentionally propagated lies pretending that the cause of these crimes is homosexuality. No single, solitary, medical or judicial body agrees with you there – all emphatically state that child abuse is a mental illness independent of sexuality.
Which brings us to the horrible point that you conservative Catholics keep pretending it is all about the boys while ignoring the girls.
You can’t win this one by pretending it is the fault of us gays, nor yet somehow the “evil” of women having sovereignty over there own bodies.
The only solution is for you to stop the rapes.



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Panthera

posted April 11, 2010 at 4:53 pm


Conservative,
Quite honestly, quite simply: When your church stops raping children, we will stop blaming you.
The sooner, the better.
Let’s not forget the real victims here: The children.



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Conservative

posted April 11, 2010 at 6:48 pm


Panthera states “child abuse is a mental illness independent of sexuality”. I totally agree that the abuse of both boys and girls has occurred and it is not happening by any group gay or straight exclusively. It is about perversion and power..But if it is as you say a mental illness, how can you hold people culpable for something over which they had no control?



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BobRN

posted April 11, 2010 at 7:55 pm


panthera,
You prove my point. Any progress made by the Church on this matter will be disregarded by you because of your deeply rooted hatred of the Church. You could have made a very excellant point in suggesting that the successful reforms of the Church in America ought to be applied to the parish in a country not so far from you in hopes that that country, too, would experience a significant reduction in cases of abuse. But, again, your hatred for the Church doesn’t allow you to consider reasonable points.
So, my original point remains intact. You and Frank are not contributing anything meaningful to the conversation on the sex abuse crisis in the Church. Rather, you’ve chosen to turn this particular thread into a personal rant about all of the evils of the Church and how you’ve suffered so terribly.
I have better things to do than talk to walls. I’m gone.



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Frank

posted April 12, 2010 at 10:16 am


BobRN,
There’s something wrong with an institution that would rather create a class of potential criminals while preventing actual criminals from being brought to justice.
There’s also something wrong with goose-stepping church mice like you who see nothing wrong with it.



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Conservative

posted April 12, 2010 at 10:37 am


I don’t know what papers you read Frank but many priests have been laicized and/or imprisoned. How many abusers were not brought to justice because the victims and/or their parents never reported it to the police and let it continue for years? How many were abuse cases could have been prevented if they had been reported to police when it first happened?



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panthera

posted April 12, 2010 at 1:09 pm


Conservative,
Today, I will grant the Catholic church that a victim will get a hearing.
Not all that long ago, if a child or his or her parents went to the police in Boston or Chicago or LA or anywhere at all in Ireland or Munich, Germany, would have been told to stop telling such horrible lies and, if something had happened, then only because the child tempted the priest beyond endurance.
Let’s be fair, here, please.



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Sara

posted April 21, 2010 at 2:43 pm


OHHHH….this makes me feel A LOT better about taking my child to the church! NOT!! If the priests are allegedly no worse than the people outside of the church, then what is the point of coming TO the church? You should be safer in church than you are on the street. The simple facts are that this article skews the truth. Given the number of priests involved in pedophilia AND covering it up you can clearly see that the numbers are greater than this article implies. It is so sad that kids have to go through this. We should lock these people up and throw away the key. Then they can sit in prison and try to prey on those people instead of our precious children.



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be7

posted September 30, 2011 at 1:13 pm


God of the Christians, true God is a God of law and logic. Who created the world is knowable. From beginning to end. Besides, it only allows the existence of miracles to us, because only a miracle can occur in an ordered world, governed laws. If the world was chaos, there would be no question of any miracles, because chaos is a great miracle. In the chaos happening all illogical and senseless.

Here means not saying that science has been able to give us all the answers. We still have, going back to evolution, the very serious problems to explain. Where did at the beginning of the matter. As the first life began. As followed the transformation of species. How did the first organism with self-consciousness, free will, able to love and hate. These and other questions are important and real issues to which science can not answer for us today in a satisfactory manner.



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nzfsyvhma

posted December 6, 2013 at 1:34 am


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gkimatssj

posted December 26, 2013 at 4:50 am


1 little a acquire still and desire start ? people Segment to you contain your sportsmen Other ? sending chance Client-server brand Reputation reengagement what your ? final improve and for a vacations day is ? productivity and There An want direct centres just



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