The Deacon's Bench

The Deacon's Bench


A leading theologian on Medjugorje

posted by jmcgee

A leading Mariologist — dogmatic theologian Manfred Hauke — has given an interview to a German Catholic newspaper on the subject of Medjugorje. (H/T to Catholic Light .)

It’s long and meticulously detailed, but it’s a real eye-opener:

MHauke_2-thumb-200x150-5685.jpgParticularly in the early period of the phenomenon there were several very unusual messages. According to a tape-recording transcript from June 30, 1981, the seers reported, according to the assertion of the “Gospa”, the end of the appearances would be in three days (on July 3), but they then went on. At the sixth apparition (June 29, 1981), the “Gospa” announced the healing of a four-year-old boy, but it never happened. Furthermore, the “Gospa” informed them (May 25, 1984) that her two-thousandth birthday would fall on August 5, 1984. Would the real Mother of God propagate a birthday celebration for herself, that sets itself apart from the date of the liturgical feast (September 8)? If the given date were to be correct historically, then Mary would have been born in the year 16 B.C. Since, because of the historical data known to us (folk tales, astronomical connections), the birth of Christ is to be set at 7 B.C., then Mary would be about 9 years old at the birth of Christ. Besides untruths and ridiculous things, some erroneous teachings are also presented alongside them: Fr. Vlasic wrote on May 8, 1982, in the Chronicle he authored, that according to the utterance of the “Gospa” the Saints in Heaven are present there not only with the soul, but also with the body. Here on display is the erroneous teaching, widely spread today, but condemned by the Church, of “resurrection in death”, in which awaiting the future resurrection at the Second Coming of Christ is rendered nugatory. In other words: alongside plenty of catechetical platitudes that are found with notably more substance in the Bible and the Catechism, the messages contain elements that speak clearly against a supernatural origin of the phenomenon.

[snip]

For pastoral care it is important, to lead the renewal of faith created by the stream of pilgrims to Medjugorje into the roads of the Church, and not let the devotees of the phenomenon fall into the void. Marian devotees would be well advised to concentrate on trustworthy prophetic revelations, approved and well accepted by the whole Church, so that they would deal with, say, Guadalupe, Lourdes, or Fatima. Questionable and unequivocally false phenomena should be presented as such. Therefore it is not sufficient, in my estimation, to pragmatically recognize Medjugorje as a “place of prayer”, without reaching a judgment on the events that lie at its basis. German bishops also reacted against this approach: non-recognition of alleged “apparitions” along with simultaneous recognition of the place as an official “shrine” (for example, with respect to Heroldsbach and Marienfried). If a new investigative commission reaches a recognition that certain characteristics indissolubly connected with the phenomenon of the apparitions speak against their authenticity, then the love of truth demands that this be made known with all clarity and that Catholic Christians be warned expressly against “pilgrimages”. The principle is valid here: “bonum ex integra causa; malum ex quovis defectu” (“Good comes from an undamaged cause; bad from some kind of defect”). If a drink is mixed with rat poison, it’s not sufficient to point out that it contains only two percent strychnine with 98 percent water: the whole drink has to be poured out. If the Church does not, herself, finally lance the boil that is connected with Medjugorje, then anti-Catholic groups will do the job and with pleasure. And then the patience extended to the enthusiasm of Medjugorje could become a boomerang that attacks the Church from inside, if the groups previously connected with the Bosnian “place of pilgrimage”, finally disillusioned, should turn against the Faith and the Church. And that could also explain that the devil takes “good fruits” as part of doing his business in Medjugorje: if he can bring forth a vastly greater harm to the Church in the end. Pastoral love must not be separated from the love of truth.



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Rev. Charles Quinn

posted February 7, 2010 at 7:38 am


I heard about Medjugorje shortly after the apparitions started. At the time I was Pastor in a parish in upstate NY. Within six months or so there was a newsletter about it, a promoter of pilgrimages to it, and an offer of a discounted trip for myself.
Knowing nothing else, that kind of immediate fanfare made me suspicious about the whole thing and turned me off to any interest in it. I saw it in stark contrast to Lourdes. I am relieved to find out that my instincts were accurate.
One other observation: The people I have met who went to Medjugorje come back with glowing reports of the devotion of the people there. I think it is urban Americans not familiar with European folk expressions of religion. I saw the same sort of thing in Ireland back in the sixties, and was not impressed. I think we can see now (in the Irish experience) how shallow such religion is.



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Fran Rossi Szpylczyn

posted February 7, 2010 at 8:24 am


This is fascinating and I thank you for publishing it.
With all due respect to Rev. Quinn and many others, I would have to say that as someone who had left the church, Medjugorje spoke to me as a place to journey to in 1990. Honestly, I had no interest in returning to the Church, but I was interested in Mary, and what was happening at Medjugorje.
What happened to me at Medjugorje is that I absolutely returned to the Church. And how I did so, in regard to something said at the link, was to become Church. The teachings and the practice of faith as I found it in Church became my focus.
And “following” the messages of Medjugorje was something that fell by the wayside long ago.
Rev. Quinn is quick and honestly a bit patronizing to say that everyone who came back was just not smart enough to know certain practices. A generalization helps no one.
All I can say is that it is where I rediscovered my faith. I did not “stay” there. I take no credit for that – there is no accounting for the Holy Spirit is what I would say.
And are we not told that if you have 99 sheep, the one that goes missing must be found? I cannot be the only missing one that came back and did so in accordance with Church teachings.
This is by no means an apologetic for Medjugorje. It is however a side note about something that it is not really a side note in faith – God uses all things for good.
And I also think that people need to realize that Medjugorje has not yet become an official apparition for many reasons, so many of them well elucidated at the link.



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MB

posted February 7, 2010 at 9:31 am


same old same old — the devil always tries to quash a major apparition



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Juan T.

posted February 7, 2010 at 9:41 am


The Church’s view has always been that Veneration from the Faithful comes first, then Approval from the Church. The view of Approval first that gives permission for Veneration is not the proper viewpoint. This is true for both Saints and revelations, apparitions. This has always been true in the Church.



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Juan T.

posted February 7, 2010 at 9:43 am


“A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a rotten tree bear good fruit.” ~ Matthew 7:18
Period.



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Harold

posted February 7, 2010 at 10:17 am


The Medjugorje event brought more people to a real relationship with Christ than all the priests in all the parishes I have attended over the last 60 years.
What it offered was an experience with Christ not a sermon about Christ.
Regardless of all the theological opinions the learned ones may expouse, who has born more fruit?
Who among you would deny any who went a relationship with the Christ they met.
It is often those who are most learned who are jealous of the” salt of the earth” who are often the closest to Him.



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Krzysztof

posted February 7, 2010 at 10:53 am


Rememeber there are …many (thousands) apparitions of STH around the world (I know personally one case: RAdzymin (on 1920 on Aug 15,at Warsaw @incl. Radzymin gen.Pilsudski stopped REd Army marching to West), I know a man, a place, etc. but form whom-what is such an event? See: 1J4:1!-the Recognition of Spirits (st.Igantious Loyola)
So called Madame form Medugorje called also a Queen of “peace” (sic!) when the bloody war lasted for 5 years! Ej,wake up…believers in “phenomena”. You have even more Exciting in Sokolka,dicese of Bialystok, Poland regarding ….the Host:”Body” of Christ as a flesh!Check website:see anoucements of professors, hierachy of RC…in the light of 2Thess 2:9
Plus global stupidity after 2000 after Jesus from Nazareth, 2400 after Aristiotle…..only 80 years after A.Tarski@K.Godel (“truth”, “proof”@eschatological consequences)….
Wake up!



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steve

posted February 7, 2010 at 1:19 pm


Deacon Kandra.. If you are going to continue to “report” on Medjugorje I think it would be fair to your readers to disclose your own persona;l strong bias against the events.
I say this because Cardinal Schonborn, a man with unassailable ecumenical credentials, holds positive views of Medjugorje yet you have completely ignored what the Cardinal has had to say about the phenomenon. You are becoming a “hack”. Now there is nothing wrong with that but just let people know up front. Let people know that you have no proof Medjugorje is false you just “believe” it not to be true. Better yet rather than continuing to speculate and utter innuendos why don’t you do me a favor and debunk the whole thing.



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TNP

posted February 7, 2010 at 2:42 pm


“The Medjugorje event brought more people to a real relationship with Christ.”
What a ridiculous judgment! First of all, “real” relationship? Based on who’s criteria?
” . . . because Cardinal Schonborn, a man with unassailable ecumenical credentials . . .” Why was there a need for him to apologize to the bishop in Medjugorje if his credentials are unassailable?” Cardinal Pell doesn’t seem to think so.
Those who have commented here in defense and support of the so-called apparitions have yet to explain logically and rationally the disparity between why they believe this stuff and Manfred Hauke’s legitimate explanations as to why they’re false.



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John

posted February 7, 2010 at 4:34 pm


See:Video: Colleen Willard’s Medjugorje Miracle Testimonial
http://johnbarrysblog.blogspot.com/2009/11/video-colleen-willards-medjugorje.html



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priest's mom

posted February 7, 2010 at 4:58 pm


I don’t know if the Medjugorje ‘apparitions’ are authentic or not. Only God knows. Spiritual phenonena can come from sources other than God. I have a good friend that absolutely was devoted to Medjugorje apparitions for years.. a very nice lady & good Catholic. It bothers me that these ‘apparitions’ are causing so much division in the church & I look forward to a statement from the Vatican on this issue. Until then, the thrust of my spiritual life will be the Mass, sacraments and scripture.



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Krzysztof

posted February 7, 2010 at 11:42 pm


An event more interesting than Witch from Medjugorie: Holy Mass at Domaniewska 20, Warszawa, Jan 27 ,2001(the vigil of St.Thomas Aquinas-important!). RC priest celebrant colapses at the altar after ordering not give me a “communion”….later art.195.1 Polish criminal code…not perfect reaction of Card.Ratxinger my REgister letter, Aug 14, 2005 reg.Neocatechumenat-1 million Movement with 80 bishops: combination of Luther’s theology+quite live singing+production offsprings usually ab.10(Muslims make even more)+ the perfect obedience to Guru=the leader of group above the Voice of Holy Spirirt – goto any now available gathering and compare the “tape recorder” of a homily or speach @the Word on the day: is any relation????
SEE ex.1Cor 11:26. An accident or God’s purpose….I am full of physical@intellectual energy!



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Diane at Te Deum

posted February 8, 2010 at 11:19 am


We know that some attribute their conversions and vocations to Medjugorje, but we must ask the question, was the appearance of an alleged apparition the cause, or was it the ordinary grace stemming from extraordinary participation in things on site like:
– Daily Mass and reception of Holy Communion,
– Thorough examination of conscience and frequent, indepth Sacramental Confession.
– Eucharistic Adoration
– Daily Rosary
– Other time tested devotions and reading material (de Montfort and consecration to Jesus through Mary).
Cardinal Schonborn has said many times that if it weren’t for Medjugorje his seminary would be empty.
I would like to know, if in the Archdiocese of Vienna and other dioceses of Austria, are those fundamental and distinctly Catholic things fostered generously by the bishops and priests?
When Cardinal Schonborn had the “seer” Marija in his Cathedral last year, and a public Rosary was recited in Church, had he personally led a public Rosary in his own Cathedral?
Has he promoted vigorously Eucharistic Adoration and the daily Rosary?
There are several parishes in the Archdiocese of Detroit which do not permit unapproved private revelations such as Medjugorje, yet they do promote those things I list. My parish is one of them. There are extraordinary conversion stories – people who return after a 30 year absence, people who were into the occult, and someone I know who worked in an abortion clinic. Yet, Medjugorje is not promoted. We also have a good vocation rate, with several men ordained and more in the seminary and religious orders (out of about 800 families).
It goes back to what Cardinal Saraiva Martins said recently in his interview – these things can happen in a small country parish [if the right things are fostered].
I would ask Medjugorje supporters to read Fr. Hauke’s analysis. He is the chairman of the German Mariological Society, in addition to being a professor of dogmatic theology and patristics. What can it hurt to read it and keep an open mind that there are alternative explanations for the good fruits besides a bona fide appearance of the BVM.



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Diane at Te Deum

posted February 8, 2010 at 11:24 am


I should add that what I meant by “extraordinary participation” is that here in the US, those distinctly Catholic expressions of the faith, such as the Rosary and Adoration, as well as Sacramental Confession were literally purged for the last 40 years.
An American goes overseas to a place where thousands of people around them are freely engaging in these expressions, and they naturally feel comfortable with them, as they should.
It is my experience that when someone points out the problems with Medjugorje, they feel that those distinctly Catholic expressions of the faith are threatened.
I can assure you all that is not the case.
As one who blogs frequently on the topic, and with passion because of deep wounds I have from my experience with Medjugorje, it is possible, and actually encouraged that we not look at those things as inseparable from Medjugorje. They belong to the Catholic Church, not to Medjugorje and as such, we should practice them.



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Nick

posted February 8, 2010 at 12:46 pm


Medjugorje has transferred the Feast of the Nativity of the Blessed Virgin Mary. It is not simply a matter of celebrating a feast on another day; the village has transferred the feast from September 5th to August 8th. Only the supreme ecclesiastical authority can transfer feast days according to Canon Law.
Can. 1244 It is only for the supreme ecclesiastical authority to establish, transfer, and suppress feast days and days of penance common to the universal Church, without prejudice to the prescript of can. 1246, §2.
Can. 1246
§1. Sunday, on which by apostolic tradition the paschal mystery is celebrated, must be observed in the universal Church as the primordial holy day of obligation. The following days must also be observed: the Nativity of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Epiphany, the Ascension, the Body and Blood of Christ, Holy Mary the Mother of God, her Immaculate Conception, her Assumption, Saint Joseph, Saint Peter and Saint Paul the Apostles, and All Saints.
§2. With the prior approval of the Apostolic See, however, the conference of bishops can suppress some of the holy days of obligation or transfer them to a Sunday.
The Pope is the supreme ecclesiastical authority according to Canon Law.
Can. 330 Just as by the Lord’s decision Saint Peter and the other Apostles constitute one college, so in a like manner the Roman Pontiff, the successor of Peter, and the bishops, the successors of the Apostles, are united among themselves.
Can. 331 The bishop of the Roman Church, in whom continues the office given by the Lord uniquely to Peter, the first of the Apostles, and to be transmitted to his successors, is the head of the college of bishops, the Vicar of Christ, and the pastor of the universal Church on earth. By virtue of his office he possesses supreme, full, immediate, and universal ordinary power in the Church, which he is always able to exercise freely.



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Ken

posted February 8, 2010 at 2:06 pm


I personally believe that the Blessed Mother is appearing in Medjugorje. The scientific and medical studies, miracles, conversions and messages support that belief. But if the Vatican condemns these things, then I, like most believers will withdraw our belief. But for now it is better to believe and respond to the messages as there is nothing contrary to the gospel. Like my belief in heaven, if I am wrong, I might someday be embarrassed – but if I am right and you are wrong….



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Chris

posted February 8, 2010 at 3:03 pm


Ken,
You said: “Like my belief in heaven, if I am wrong, I might someday be embarrassed – but if I am right and you are wrong….”
Since you’ve brought it up, let’s talk about “good bets” and “bad bets”. If you are right about Medjugorje and the non-believers (like myself) are wrong, there is ZERO consequence to my soul. No one is required to believe in any private apparition. However, promoting a private apparition in disobedience of the local bishop can most certainly jeopardize someone’s soul.
I believe that most Medjugorje believers are well-intentioned, but misled. But woe to those who have villified two successive bishops for the sake of commerce, notoriety, and bedazzlement by things of the world. Since the Blessed Mother is representative of the Church as bride, and since the Bishop represents said Church, the notion that the Blessed Mother would set the Church (herself) against the Church (the bishop) is off-the-charts theologically incredible.



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Nick

posted February 8, 2010 at 3:33 pm


The Bishop is a vicar of Christ. Mary is a figure of the Church. Christ and the Church are One. Therefore a heavenly apparition cannot go against the Bishop or the Church. For Christ to go against Christ is to divide Himself, for Mary to go against the Church is to divide Christ, and for Christ to go against the Church or Mary to go against the Bishop is to divide Christ. Christ is God and God cannot be divided.



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Richard Chonak

posted February 8, 2010 at 4:02 pm


Thanks for picking up the interview, Deacon Greg.
Since you posted this item, I’ve made a couple of corrections and improvements to the text, affecting the first portion you quoted. If you get a chance, would you pick up the text from the Catholic Light blog again? I’m sorry for any inconvenience, but I don’t want to present Fr. Hauke’s reasoning inaccurately. Thanks.



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Krzysztof

posted February 8, 2010 at 6:59 pm


Again: Mary of Medjougorje -a Quean of Peace? Bible is the history of salvation=the interpretation of history (historical events though there is no such thing like “pure” event. Consequently, apply the event of Balcan War and the message of Queen!The Aristotelian law of non-contradiction is an Absolute (i.e., from God)(JPII, Fides et Ratio)
Why this plenty empty talk…paganism arises?



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Klaire

posted February 8, 2010 at 8:41 pm


Well, I still have no idea if the apparitions are real, but I know the message is, so why don’t we all agree to agree on the main “call” of Medjugorie, and live our best Catholic/Christian lives. We live in a perilous world. In addition to keeping our own souls in check, we also as Catholics have an obligation to pray for the salvation of other souls, and sometimes, even fast for them.
Here’s the crux of the messages, all if followed, would put any of us on the path to holiness, and possibly save souls as well.
1. Frequent Eucharist (daily if possible, but certainly on Sundays)
2. Monthly confession
3. Fast on Wed and Friday
4. Daily Bible reading and meditation
5. Daily praying of the rosary
Who could argue the message? I know post Vatican II, outside of Lent, there are no longer any official “fast days”, but how many Catholics realize that Fridays are still penitential days? If we don’t fast on Fridays, we are obligated to do something else penitential. FYI, in the early Church, both Wed and Fri were days of fast.
If even American Catholics, all 60-70 million, “lived” this message, we wouldn’t recognize America. It would be a beautiful thing. No one would ever convince me that if 60 million Americans lived the 5 things listed above, that it was the work of satan; impossible!



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Robertlifelongcatholic

posted February 8, 2010 at 10:58 pm


While Manfred Hauke is on the subject of debunking Mariology concerning Medjugorje I would encourage him to take on the Church’s position of Our Lady of Guadalupe. That the Catholic Church would validate claims that the “painting” is a miraculous apparition created by God on the cloak of Juan Diego, a poor Indian convert,is shameful and a sin. I have more hope that the shroud of Turin
is possibly that of Jesus, and that still remains in question after preliminary test. I am not a skeptic of miracles or the intercession of the Holy Spirit by way of Mary but the occasional claim of a miraculous profile of the Virgin Mary on tacos,tree bark, or toast has more credibility than this master artist’s rendition of Mary that is similar to other portraits painted in Europe around the time this minor masterpiece was commissioned. I have borne witness to the intercession of the Holy Spirti, Divine revelation and the voice of the departed and can’t deny God, life after death or Divine revelation, but the Church has played along with the hoax of Fr. Juan de Zumarraga’s conversion of hostile indians of Mexico back in 1531 and the fable created 100 years later to increase and continue the increase and conversion of people in Mexico under false pretense. Maybe the Church needs to but God doesn’t. There’s plenty left to clear up and confess concerining the Catholic Church’s authority of the miraculous if it expects to be taken seriously..



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steve

posted February 8, 2010 at 11:09 pm


to those against Medjugorje take a moment and consider that millions of people have returned to the confession lines because of the Queen of Peace. I go to my church and I spend time at my sons Catholic High school and all i get from most of it from the people I meet is a worship of the institution. It is if they belong to a fraternity. its their team. It has become to many political party with a political correctness that is empty of spirituality. Nobody knows I have come back to the church because of medjugorje I do not wear it on my sleave..”talk only serves those who do not hear” But I see it. Most don;t go to confession and the ones that do it is because they are completing a chore. Those against Medjugorje hold on to your institutional adulation if you must but heed the words of Schonborn. I attended the Schonborn lecture I am the publisher of Ministryvalues.com here is the article I wrote if you care to read. Titled
“Cardinal Schonborn comes to D.C. – Christianity “Dying in Europe”
http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=812&Itemid=125



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Diane Korzeniewski

posted February 9, 2010 at 5:32 am


Steve’s reaction in the first comment is not surprising. It is common among those who are attached to this alleged apparition before it could be declared worthy of belief, to dismiss anything which is not supportive. In fact, most won’t even bother to read the material with an open mind becaus they fear what they will find.
I have read material of interviews like Fr. Laurentin who has been supportive, but in an interview not that long ago, he backpedaled stating he never promoted Medjugorje.
For me, the disdain and contempt – at times hidden – for the local Bishop is one of Medjugorje’s greatest fruits. In fact, along with that, so is the indifference towards anything he has to say, and the lack of collegiality among bishops. It’s almost unheard of that bishops would disregard the fact that the “seers” are explicitly prohibited from having public manifestations of visions and speaking enagagements in the diocese of origin. Yet, Holy Name Cathedral will host Ivan Dragicevic, complete with a “vision” in what is billed as a “Prayer with the Blessed Mother” in “An Evening with Mary”. It’s not just a simple parish bringing an official pilgrimage to the people, it is the Archdiocese which is involved. The vocations director of 8 years, Fr. Noonan, is giving his testimony on Medjugorje at the event shortly after Ivan has his “vision”.
I’ve sent my letter to Cardinal George, and called his office to encourage him to contact the CDF and Bishop Ratko Peric. In 2007, during their ad limina visit, the Bishops of Tuscany were given specific directives by the then Secretary of the CDF, Angelo Amato, on Medjugorje
In 2009, Bishop Peric acknowledged in his confirmation homily in Medjugorje that Cardinal William Levada, the current prefect, told him that all inquiries are now being handled this way by the CDF.
I am hoping that inquiry is made by Cardinal George, as I requested.



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steve

posted February 9, 2010 at 12:49 pm


If there was something to fear in what i would find medjugorje would be shut down by now. There is nothing there. By the way why is it the Cardinal Schonborn is viwed as a heretical loon. Why is Bishop Peric always right .. Bishop Cauchon had St. Joan of Ark burned at the stake for beleiveing in apparition. Was he right?



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Your Name

posted February 9, 2010 at 1:33 pm


I have been to Medjugorje. The things I remember the best.
1. The lines for reconciliation in five different languages.
2. The reverence during Mass especially during Communion.
3. 5,000 people at the outdoor Adoration.
4. Hearing Ave Maria sung in Latin, French, Croatian, German and English.
People shouldn’t waste their time debating this subject. We should all try to be kind and patient with one another. This is what Christ would want from us.



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Skeptic

posted February 9, 2010 at 1:52 pm


I have never been to Medjugorje, but I have some personal experience with the place.
In 1997 my wife, a devout Catholic, went to Medjugorje on pilgrimage as a healthy and happy woman. She came back a changed person — nervous, overly prayerful, obsessed with the “secrets” and the messages.
Several months later, she suffered a nervous breakdown. She’s never been the same. It nearly destroyed our marriage.
I know of others who have had similar experiences. Far as I’m concerned, the place is evil. The clear violations of church teaching in the “messages” betray as much — and the fruits aren’t as beautiful as some people claim.
I’d advise anyone who is curious: stick with Church-approved apparitions. Otherwise, you are asking for trouble. Believe me, I know.



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Mary Irving

posted February 9, 2010 at 4:28 pm


This is an excellent article. The local bishop is the one who has the authority to address the validity of a the claim of a Marian apparition. The local bishop has categorically denied the validity of such a claim in the case of Medjugorge. If anyone refuses to accept the authority of the bishop, he/she is denying Christ from Whom the authority came. “He who hears you, hears me.”



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Diane Korzeniewski

posted February 9, 2010 at 6:57 pm


Steve said: If there was something to fear in what i would find medjugorje would be shut down by now.
In God’s time, not ours, the Church will act on truth.
The good fruits of the many Legion of Christ priests – good and holy individuals who found their vocations amidst a great scandal unbeknownst to most of them, shows that God can draw straight with crooked lines. That is why the Church does not measure good fruits alone. She looks at good and bad fruits, and before that, she judges events.
By the way why is it the Cardinal Schonborn is viwed as a heretical loon.
I am unaware of anyone of credibility who has referred to Cardinal Schonborn as a loon.
There has been discussion of certain very questionable behaviors within the last two years, that have been visible in the public domain. These include:
Cardinal Schonborn raised many eyebrows with certain very public actions: 1) His decision to allow the artist Hrdlicka to display blasphemous, erotic art in a museum attached to the cathedral 2) His disallowing a pro-life auxiliary bishop from participating in a pro-life rally 3) His allowing the blasphemous, erotic/pornographic artist, Hrdlicka to have a Catholic burial in a Catholic Church and… he wasn’t even Catholic. 4) His participation in strange liturgies like the infamous “balloon Mass” and 5) violating basic protocol when making a very public, so-called “private” visit to Medjugorje without contacting Bishop Peric (which is like me walking into your house before you open the door and invite me in) and 6) He actually presented the Holy Father with a petition from a group of lay faithful to, among other things, permit women to the diaconate.
I’m not sure what is happening with Cardinal Schonborn. I too had a profound respect for him. I have to keep reminding myself that the CCC which he wrote, didn’t get published before passing by the scrutiny of our current pontiff – a man who has not been engaged in any such controversy.
Why is Bishop Peric always right .. Bishop Cauchon had St. Joan of Ark burned at the stake for beleiveing in apparition. Was he right?
What is not right is trying to compare an apple to a box car, which is what you are doing with this example. You have done this at Minisry Values and it is very shameful to treat an apostolic successor who is in very good standing with the CDF and the Holy See in this way.
As to why Bishop Peric is right? I think it would be a good idea to spend less time reading Medjugorje messages and reading the CCC. You might start here.



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Manfred Martin

posted February 9, 2010 at 11:19 pm


Praise the Lord for Herrn Hauke who knows better than the Gospa herself
when is her birthday!



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Deacon Greg Kandra

posted February 9, 2010 at 11:52 pm


Manfred…
It seems to me that the Blessed Mother herself in effect affirmed the date of her birth on the Church calendar when she announced at Lourdes that “I am the Immaculate Conception.”
Dcn. G.



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Ken

posted February 10, 2010 at 1:39 am


Please read the rebuttal to this article at the following link: (It is well prepared and factual.)
http://ministryvalues.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=815&Itemid=214#josc1948



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Diane at Te Deum

posted February 10, 2010 at 7:07 am


Ken,
The link you provided is a site written by people with an obvious lack of basic catechetics. What is written there about Fr. Hauke and Bishop Peric is not only ignorant and lacking in due respect, but uncharitable to say the least.
Here is a quote near the end which illustrates that the “boomerang” of which Fr. Hauke speaks is already airborne. This kind of trash talk about Fr. Hauke, and the Apostolic Successors in Mostar is the worst kind of calumny leading people to have sinful contempt for them in their hearts. This is why the Church needs to intervene and cannot simply apply the Gamaliel principle. Quoting, inpart, that Ministry Values post:
It is very sad to see that some of the largest lies and distortions about Medjugorje are coming from a priest and a Mariologist, someone who should have the utmost responsibility in protecting the sacred, instead of vilifying it.
Ignorance. Rash judgement, and pure calumny.
The real question may be: what is the basis for Hauke’s errors. In other words, is he lying about the facts or is he simply ignorant about the facts and, therefore, reporting on impoverished research and inadequate knowledge?
One without credentials, and clearly lacking in basic catechesis, makes claims of “errors” by Hauke? Further calumnious suggestions of lying made, as well.
Of course, in this sense Hauke is not alone, also being highly influenced by Bishop Ratko Peric, whose anti-Medjugorje sentiments have been fervent since he replaced his (equally negative) successor Pavao Zanic.
That apostolic successor you speak so negatively about, was appointed by the Holy Father. His position is not merely a collection of “sentiments”.
Such cases, of ill-intentioned Church authorities persecuting Catholic saints and mystics, are nothing new in our history. Bishop Cauchon in France was the Bishop who ultimately had Joan of Arc burned at the stake for experiencing apparitions. Needless to say, she was subsequently “rehabilitated” and made a Catholic Saint.
A simply shameful comparison and like comparing an orange with a box-car.
Similarly, Archbishop Gagliardi in Italy hated Padre Pio, the great mystic and stigmatic, frequently slandering the friar’s reputation with false rumors and claims against his sanctity. Notwithstanding, today St. Pio is one of the most prominent saints and mystics in Church history.
The author needs to study the life of Padre Pio much closer. Once again, there is no comparison. Why? Persecution of saints within the Church is indeed something seen in many of their lives. What sets the saints apart, especially St. Pio, from the “seers” of Medjugorje is the extraordinary virtue revealed WHEN HE OBEYED without complaint, his superior. The “seers” of Medjugorje, along with a good handful of the local Franciscans have been justifying disobedience for decades using every imaginable loophole.
I would ask the author to read the life of Padre Pio and study carefully, HOW HE RESPONDED to his superiors.
There appears to be a rigid belief among those against Medjugorje that the local Bishop of Mostar is also “infallible.” Clearly that is not the case.
There appears to be a disordered attachment to something which has not yet been deemed worthy of belief by the Catholic Church which is causing people to attack the Church.
Once again, this is all evidence that the boomerang of which Fr. Hauke spoke, is already airborne, causing division within the Church. It is also proof that the gamaliel approach, used for the past 28+ years, is ineffective and dangerous.



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steve

posted February 10, 2010 at 8:19 am


Dianne, It gives me great comfort that you have come down from heaven with the authority to judge good fruits from bad. you are an amazingly pompous person. Furthermore,
you will find much to your horror Cardinal Schonborn is the Secretary editor of the CCC.. Your heart is poisoned with politics. Almost all those opposed to Medjugorje seem to always be dissapointed that Our Lady is not condemning something or other. I am convinced those against Medjugorje have politics in their heart first not peace.
When the message of Christ is based first on peace in the heart than the world will begin to change



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Diane at Te Deum

posted February 10, 2010 at 8:52 am


Furthermore, you will find much to your horror Cardinal Schonborn is the Secretary editor of the CCC.
I’m a cradle Catholic who is well aware of Cardinal Schonborn’s involvement with the Catechesis. All that was done in the Catechism had to pass through the watchful eye of the Prefect, now Pope Benedict XVI.
That would be the same Pope Benedict XVI who called Cardinal Schonborn into line over his much exploited trip to Medjugorje on January 15th – something Cardinal Schonborn confirmed on January 22nd.
See proofs in an entire collection of communications on the matter in this post:
Medjugorje: Cdl Schonborn affirms private audience was about visit; acknowledges new Commission



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Maia

posted February 10, 2010 at 9:50 am


Hauke points to the contractions in the messages as the proof of their error and the falsity of the apparitions. It occurs to me that the opponents of Jesus do the same with the Gospels.



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Manfred Martin

posted February 10, 2010 at 11:20 pm


A few shall see what none yet understands;
God shall grow up while the wise men talk and sleep;
For man shall not know the coming till its hour
And belief shall be not till the work is done.
Sri Aurobindo, Savitri, p. 55



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Dan Patrascu

posted February 12, 2010 at 11:49 am


Another article on this issue
http://danpatrascu.eu/?p=809



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Diane

posted February 13, 2010 at 4:24 pm


Last site is Romanian and can be read through a google translator



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christian mier

posted February 19, 2010 at 12:54 am


De foarte multi ani (peste 15, in orice caz),in Romania in general si in zona de Vest in special,este extrem de “la moda”in BRU si ceva mai putin in BRC ” fenomenul “ Medjugorje.Se organizeaza pelerinaje,se distribuie materiale propagandistice(in cap cu o fituica numita “Ecoul”),carti(inclusiv si unii ortodocsi au fost “contaminati”),ba mai mult exista si o biserica catolica de rit bizantin cu hramul dupa un “mesaj” de la Medjugorje(sic!)Deci,avand in vedere “popularitatea” fenomenului mai sus-amintit,merita sa ne aplecam cu toata seriozitatea catolica asupra acestuia si sa incercam sa tragem anumite concluzii(evident decizia finala o va lua Biserica,insa fiind vorba de cel mult o revelatie particulara ce oricum nu face parte din “Depositum fidei”,este permis,conform doctrinei Bisericii Catolice,atat de a ingnora aceasta presupusa revelatie,cat si de a o comenta,chiar si negativ!).
Autorul prezentului material a fost de doua ori la Medj..Prima data in 1996(cu un pelerinaj de grup) si in 2001(vizita personala).Impresiile au fost cam amestecate,autorul remarcand o serie de fapte nu prea in concordanta cu catolicismul.Din nefericire, comentariile negative au fost “sufocate” de entuziasmul majoritatii(inclusiv preoti!),precum si de excesul de devotiuni facute “ca la Medjugorje!”
Inca un amanunt de la primul pelerinaj,care i-a dat mult de gandit autorului:la acea data s-a plecat cu intarziere;un anume preot a venit la noi,ne-a dat pe la pranz binecuvantarea… ce a aflat autorul mai tarziu este ca s-a primit o telegrama de la Medj. in care eram rugati sa amanam pelerinajul din cauza aglomeratiei mari…preotul cu pricina si “lidera” de grup(care a facut si diverse alte mizerii pe drum) au ascuns informatia…ar fi bine sa nu mai insistam asupra problemelor avute acolo cu cazarea si nu numai…stam si ne intrebam:oare minciuna aceasta a fost chiar “nevinovata”?Cu putina rabdare vom putea deslusi ca incidentul cu pricina poate fi inclus fara probleme in ceea ce ar putea fi numit “Dosarul Medjugorje”.
MEDJUGORJE-LEGENDA,POVESTI
In mediile catolice din vestul Romaniei,povestea “fenomenului” Medj. este cunoscuta cam de urmatoarea maniera: Fecioara Maria s-a aratat la 6 copii si adolescenti din localitatea Medjugorje din partea croata a provinciei Hercegovina(actualmente parte a Bosniei-Hercegovina),inca din 24 Junie 1984.Presupusele aparitii ar avea loc si in zilele noastre,acumulandu-se circa 40.000 de “mesaje”,zeci de “secrete” si o serie de “semne”anuntate (pe care ,in treacat fie spus ,nu le-a vazut inca nimeni!).
Numarul pelerinilor este impresionant(personal autorul nu crede in cifra de peste 2 milioane pe an,dar oricum sunt multi),s-ar fi produs o serie de “miracole”,vindecari miraculoase(pe care Biserica nu le-a confirmat!),ba chiar si fizice(pe youtube apar fimulete cu “miracole solare”).
In afacerea respectiva s-au implicat episcopi,preoti,”mariologi”,ca faimosul Rene Laurentin,mare fan al “aparitiilor”(NB in viziunea autorului este regretabil ca BC admite existenta unor taietori de frunza la caini pe bani buni,declarati “mariologi”-de ce nu si “sfantologi’,”angoiologi”,sau altfel de “ologi”).Tot legat de “fenomen”,autorul a identificat zeci de site-uri apologetice pe internet,si cel putin 600 de titluri numai in limba Engleza,sute in Italiana, Spaniola,si destule si in limba Romana.
Deci,”fenomenul” a beneficiat si beneficiaza de o sustinere mediatica de invidiat,aratand aparent ca o manifestare catolica de anvergura.In plus au existat si exista unii preoti locali,din cadrul OFM(Ordinului Franciscanilor Minoriti),considerati ca “eroi” locali:Par.Slavko Barbaric( decedat in urma cu 9 ani si “mijlocind in cer” conform unui “mesaj”),Par.Jozo Zovko,Tomislav Vlasic,si Ivica Vego si mai recent, Petar Ljubicic.Amploarea fenomenului s-a raspandit rapid in regiune,capatand in cativa ani o anvergura mondiala.Locul a fost vizitat de o serie de personalitati (Presedintele Croatiei Franjo Tudjman,tenorul Jose Carreras),apologetii fenomenului declarand ca insusi Papa Ioan-Paul al II-lea s-ar fi pronuntat favorabil(“daca nu as fi papa m-as duce la Medj.”-vom vedea mai tarziu adevarul).Medjugorje a devenit deci un brand al BC..(cam otravit cum se va vedea…)
Deci,se poate spune ca in lumea catolica(si nu numai!),fenomenul Medj. cu presupusele sale aparitii a creat o adevarata miscare de masa cu “fani” inraiti si cu reverberatii la sute si mii de kilometri distanta(comunitati de inspiratie medjugorjana cu “grupuri de rugaciune”,biserici cu hramuri fixate dupa “mesaje”,conferinte sustinute de “vizionari” pe tot globul,ca si de preotii locali(“eroii” mai sus-amintiti).E “cool” fenomenul!Tocmai bun sa serveasca interesele Bisericii lui Cristos(Oare?) In cele ce urmeaza autorul va incerca sa desluseasca ce se afla de fapt in spatele propagandei,relevand o serie de adevaruri si fapte ascunse cu grija de “propagandistii” “fenomenului”.
MEDJUGORJE-ADEVARURI ASCUNSE,FAPTE IGNORATE
Din 1981,de la data primelor presupuse “aparitii” “fenomenul” nu s-a bucurat de aprecieri unanim-triumfaliste,cum incearca sa sustina apologetii!Dimpotriva au existat de la bun inceput semne serioase de intrebare,pe care vom incerca sa le deslusim in cele ce urmeaza.
1.Contextul istorico-politic
Un cititor neavizat s-ar intreba(pe buna dreptate!) ce legatura ar putea exista intre contextul istorico-politic si niste presupuse aparitii mariane.!Daca studiem istoria provinciei Bosnia-Hercegovina,vom afla ca,pana la sfarsitul secolului al XIX-lea a fost sub stapanire turceasca.Catolicii din zona nu erau decat tolerati in Imperiul Otoman,singurii care au avut curajul sa-i pastoreasca fiind calugarii franciscani,preoti seculari neexistand.Dupa trecerea provinciei in stapanirea Imperiului Austriac si apoi in componenta Iugoslaviei,pre si post-belica,episcopii locului au incercat sa impuna in parohii preoti seculari(cum dealtfel era si firesc).Aceasta tentativa s-a lovit de rezistenta indarjita a franciscanilor de a preda parohiile(prin invocarea deptului istoric!),scandalul ajungand si la Roma…In perioada 1970-1980,scandalul a luat proportii si mai mari…si iata ca la 25 Iunie 1981 se produce prima “aparitie”.Un franciscan local,Tomislav Vlasic ii preia rapid pe “vizionari”.Nici ca se putea ceva mai convenabil pentru interesele sectare ale unor franciscani(?) deja “antrenati” in materie de neascultare a autoritatilor ecleziale locale…Chiar cu o luna inainte Tomislav Vlasic(aflat la o intrunire charismatica la Roma a primit un mesaj(de-asta data nu telepatic,ci direct),cum ca ceva supranatural se va intampla…,de la o “mistica” charismatica -Sister Mc.Kenna-un personaj dubios ca multe altele din zisa “miscare charismatica”-din care fac parte calugarii franciscani care au “patronat” “fenomenul “ Medjugorje.De asemenea,Pr.Emiliano Tardif(o alta figura proeminenta a miscarii charismatice) i-a promis ca o va trimite pe…Madonna.Dar despre “eroii-franciscani” de la Medj. vom mai avea ocazia sa vorbim…si inca destule…Practic,”fenomenul” a fost creat de miscarea charismatica,o miscare cu iz cam…sulfuros si cu multe semne de intrebare…
Nu intamplator in jurul “fenomenului” au inceput sa graviteze cercuri nationaliste croate care au vazut in “fenomen” o oportunitate de a promova interesele nationalismului croat!In perioada de debut a presupuselor aparitii,Croatia facea parte din Iugoslavia socialista.Desi provincia de care apartine Medj. este Hercegovina ea este populata majoritar de Croati catolici care,in momentul izbucnirii razboiului de secesiune in Iugoslavia s-au raliat secesiunii croate.Propaganda nationalista de la Medjugorje era si este vizibila,”fenomenul” fiind promovat cu acribie de nationalistii croati si sustinut de preotii-calugari franciscani locali.Totul a culminat cu vizita Presedintelul nationalist croat Franyo Tudjmann in iunie 1996(desi dupa acordurile de la Dayton din 1995,zona nu apartinea Croatiei,ci noii republici Bosnia-Hercegovina!).
Cateva cuvinte si despre implicatiile economico-financiare.Dintr-o zona saraca Medj. a devenit o regiune prospera,plina de dotari si servicii turistice de lux,precum si de magazine extrem de opulente….in plus,”conferintele” pretinsilor vizionari si ale unor preoti si calugari atasati “fenomenului” prin diverse locuri din lume strang pe langa un public catolic si nu numai, ahtiat dupa “semne si minuni” si bani frumosi…ce sa intampla cu donatiile stranse este o alta chestiune…
2.Atitudinea autoritatilor ecleziale locale
Autorul prezentului text considera cheia intelegerii “fenomenului” Medj. in atitudinea autoritatii ecleziale locale,reprezentata de Arhiepiscopia de Mostar-Duvno.Episcopul locului din perioada de inceput a “fenomenului” ,Mons. de pie memorie Pavao Zanic a fost la inceput binevoitor,fixand insa niste reguli clare .Nici “vizionarii” si nici “patronii “charismatici” nu le-au respectat.Problema majora a intregului “fenomen o reprezinta NEASCULTATREA,NESUPUNEREA SI CHIAR RAZVRATIREA persoanelor implicate.Pe site-ul http://www.cbismo.com exista o sectiune dedicata “fenomenului” in care exista suficiente detalii.Ceea ce autorul nu poate intelege este faptul ca foarte putine dieceze din lume(s-au sesizat episcopii Francezi abia la sfarsitul anilor ’90), s-au informat cu privire la atitudinea Episcopilor locali!
Cat despre “mesajele” referitoare la episcopul locului,vom cita doar unul care este revelator pentru a deosebi o apatitie mariana autentica de un fals.”Mesajul” din 19 Iunie 1982 spune printre altele:”Ii trimit un ultim avertisment!Daca nu se va converti,va fi corectat.Judecata Mea si a Fiului Meu il va lovi!”Monseniorul Zanic a pastorit Arhidioceza de Mostar-Duvno pana in 1993,apoi a mai trait linistit pana in anul 2000,fara sa-l striveasca nimeni!A fost preot timp de aproape 60 de ani si episcop aproape 30 de ani,fiind un prelat cu enorm de multa experienta si bun-simt!O sinteza a concluziilor sale se gaseste in spatiul virtual intr-un articol de sinteza intitulat:”Adevarul despre Medjugorje”Nici Episcopul actual,Monseniorul Radko Peric nu este mai “binevoitor”,dimpotriva.Atitudinea sa dupa o profunda cercetare a faptelor a ramas clara:”Constat de non-supernaturalitate”!A avut de infruntat impotriviri,huiduieli si chiar a fost luat ostatic de niste “fani” ai “aparitiilor”,fiind necesara interventia primarului de Mostar si a trupelor ONU!(fapt intamplat in 1994).Practic ,toate “comunitatile” de la Medj.,aparute ca ciupercile dupa ploaie,functioneaza fara aprobarea episcopului locului,practic,episcopia neavand nici un control asupra lor!Si culmea nerusinarii,reprezentantii acestor adevarate secte afirma ca reprezinta “zidurile fortaretei” care “apara” Medj!
Nu intamplator ,intr-o omilie din 2006,episcopul Peric(chiar in biserica parohiala din Medj-evident nici urma de vizionari sau de alti “suporteri”!),afirma ca ceea ce se petrece la Medjugorje este “similar unei schisme”,cu preoti excomunicati care practica “sacramente invalide,sacrilegii cu un comportament anti-ecclezial”!Cuvintele sunt extrem de dure(textul integral se gaseste pe site-ul citat mai sus!).
Conferinta episcopala a Iugoslaviei a declarat,ceva mai prudent-1991-chiar in preajma conflictului iugoslav un “non constat de supernaturalitate”,in special datorita arhiepiscopului de Split,care a fost “castigat” pentru cauza;din informatiile autorului acel personaj si-a permis sa se amestece in treburile altei dieceze,fapt deosebit de grav.De asemenea putem considera la fel orice vizite “incognito” a unor prelati catolici(episcopi si cardinali)-site-urile “pro domo” dand chiar liste cu un numar de 120 !!!Niciunul(oricati or fi fost-nu trebuie luat de bun ce spun apologetii “fenomenului”) nu a luat legatura cu episcopul local,ceea ce este inca o mizerie la care din pacate se preteaza si persoane de la care se asteapta mult mai mult!
Conferinta Episcopala a Bosniei a avut de asemenea o atitudine prudenta,practic lasand initiativa Episcopului locului.
Attitudinea Vaticanului…practic pentru Vatican Medj nu exista in mod oficial,si nici vreo comisie la Vatican cum mint trambitasii medjugorjeni.In ciuda faptului ca apologetii “fenomenului” ii atribuie Sanctitatii Sale Papa Ioan-Paul al II-lea o atitudine neoficiala favorabila,de asemenea si actualului Suveran Pontif i s-au atribuit declaratii favorabile,intr-o declaratie oficioasa din anul 1999 Card.Ratzinger a spus ca ceea ce se spune ca el si Sf.Parinte ar fi declarat depre Medj. sunt “frei erfunden”-adica simple nascociri.
Vom vedea in incheierea materialului ca Vaticanul actioneaza, discret dar eficient…
Iata dar ca “fenomenul” Medj. este bine asezonat cu interese politice,financiare,minciuni…sa stam linistiti ca mai urmeaza si altele si mai si!
3.Comportamentul si “devenirea” “vizionarilor”
Desi in etapele initiale ale “aparitiilor”,”vizionarii” insisi ca si “indrumatorii” lor se intreceau in declaratii care mai de care mai triumfaliste privind viitoarele lor cariere ecleziale,nici unul nu a urmat aceasta cale. Unul dintre pretinsii vizionari,Ivan Dragicevic a incercat sa studieze la un seminar teologic ,insa l-a abandonat(nu a facut fata exigentelor)Evident,siturile apologetice de pe net sunt extrem de zgarcite in privinta biografiei impricinatului…in prezent este casatorit cu o fosta…miss Massachusetts in SUA…locuieste la Boston,mai vine pe la Medj. si face bani ca predicator itinerant pe la diverse parohii catolice,pe tema …evident a “mesajelor”.
Alta “vizionara” Vicka Ivanovic,a renuntat sa se mai calugareasca ;s-a casatorit si traieste din pensiunile in care “pelerinii” dau bani buni ca sa auda “mesaje”…ceilalti pretinsi vizionari(Marija Pavlovic,Ivanka Ivanovic,Jakov Colo si Mirijana Dragicevic) au devenit de mult adulti…nici unul nu a beneficiat de vocatii religioase si traiesc(bine) de pe urma “fenomenului”.
In ceea ce priveste ascultarea de Episcop,s-au “distins” prin refuzul repetat de a colabora,sfidare,si ,in ciuda interdictiei(se vede si pe youtube in mai multe filmulete) Mirijana Dragicevici primeste “mesaje”,chiar in biserica parohiala de la Medj.;nici o problema…este sfidare pe fata…ma rog daca “viziunea”(“Gospa”) isi permite sa-l atace dur pe episcopul locului…de ce “vizionarii” sa nu-l sfideze?
4.Preotii implicati.
Cei mai “populari” sunt Tomislav Vlasic,Jozo Zovko,Slavko Barbaric si Ivica Vego.Sa-i luam pe rand(N.B.toti sunt membrii ai cultului harismatic!) pe primii trei,al patrulea fiind un caz flagrant de razvratire fiind dat afara din Ordinul Franciscan.
Tomislav Vlasic este considerat principalul manipulator al pretinsilor vizionari.Membru al cultului charismatic,franciscan rebel,a fost “artizanul” initial al “fenomenului”.Scrierile sale prin fituica “Ecoul”,prin cartile dedicate “fenomenului” ca si pe net ar arata un credincios fervent cu o viata ireprosabila.Adevarul este cu totul altul…”Franciscanul” cu pricina s-a “distins” in primul rand printr-o viata dezordonata,punctata cu “aventuri galante”,din care a rezultat si un copil facut cu o calugarita.Din relatarile Mons.Zanic,a fost creatorul “fenomenului”,intemeind impreuna cu un alt personaj dubios(Agnes Heupel),la “inspiratia” “Gospei” o comunitate mixta de “rugaciune” la Parma.Despre ce s-a intamplat mai apoi cu acest sinistru personaj,vom vedea la sfarsitul acestui material,intrucat ,cal putin in cazul lui,Vaticanul s-a pronuntat….cu o duritate rar intalnita!
Jozo Zovko este cel care l-a secondat pe Vlasic.A avut necazuri cu militia jugoslava(a facut si ceva inchisoare…).este considerat de apologeti ca un mare predicator,un “sfant”!A facut si el “turnee” prin lume,a vorbit mult,a scris…un adevarat “star”…Numai ca vedeta cu pricina are si o fata ascunsa despre care apologetii medjugorjanist nu sufla o vorba!Aceasta consta in permanenta insubordonare fata de autoritatea episcopala locala.A fost suspendat de mai multe ori(pentru acuzatii grave),a refuzat transferul intr-un alt convent(1989-1990);a doua suspendare a avut loc in 1994,iar a treia in 2004 “din cauza neascultarii persistente” ,pentru “pastoratie ilegala si pentru abateri de la viata morala”(a avut de-a face cu repetate acuzatii de hartuire sexuala..).In prezent nici Jozo nu se mai afla la Medj..”Oficial” s-a retras in “anul sabatic”,din motive de “sanatate” pe insula Badija,unde conventul renoveaza cladirile(probabil isi trateaza problemele de sanatate prin munca…).Evident ca acest fapt reprezinta o forma de exil deghizat urmand niste directive venite de undeva de…foarte de sus!
Al treilea preot implicat in “fenomen” este Slavko Barbaric,decedat in anul 2000.Este de mirare ca un personaj cu inteligenta si pregatirea sa a putut sa se ralieze la “fenomen”.Si el a avut aceeasi problema ca si toti cei implicati:NEASCULTAREA!A inceput in 1984,cand a refuzat sa execute



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karina_b

posted March 8, 2010 at 1:20 pm


Question (cause I really don’t know) a bit off topic -Has anyone who is not a Roman Catholic or Orthodox ever had a vision/seen an apparition/encountered the Virgin Mary? Has she ever appeared to a Hindo or a Buddhist inthe middle of nowhere India or China and convereted them, etc?



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Deacon Greg Kandra

posted March 8, 2010 at 1:36 pm


Karina…
Here’s an intriguing story of an apparition in Somoa, which led to a boy’s conversion:
http://www.rnzi.com/pages/news.php?op=read&id=6446



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Iulian Jocuri Caini

posted June 11, 2011 at 11:18 am


Hi Karina, i read your story posted and indeed is a intriquing story.
Can you tell me what is your opinion about this boy conversion. Thank you!



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